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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 03:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Its time to have a common sense discussion on allowing CSM members to remain anonymous. There are a number of safety issues being ignored, and few common sense justifications for not maintaining a CSM's anonymity. Currently CCP lists the real names of the players sitting on the CSM its been previously stated by CCP Xhagen from the May-June CSM minutes that:
Quote: CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
First lets address this "creating accountability" statement. CCP already knows who we are, they have our billing information, in the CSM vetting process they definitely know we can obtain a passport and are eligible to run. When a person gets elected to the CSM and signs that NDA, a binding legal document, its not their character name being put down on the paper. I would say at this point the person on the CSM is pretty darn accountable having gone through all of that. So what does having a person's real life name being publicly known add to that?
You don't know me in real life, you know me by my character, by my alliance, by my killboard and the posting I do on here. So if I tossed my name out there, how does that allow you to get to know me any better? How does that make me any more accountable than signing my name to a legal document? It doesn't.
Now lets look at this in terms of "practical matters." I know that CCP handles credit card numbers and other billing information which it maintains confidentially. At least I hope so because I don't think any of us would be all that happy having our financial information unprotected and floating out there. So if CCP can safeguard that information, how does it suddenly become not practical safeguard someone's real life name. I mean they are all ready doing that right now when they keep your billing data secret from the public, in fact its not just your name but also your credit card number. How hard is it to have a CSM member only known by their character name? Apparently it must be really hard so perhaps we should demand CCP to show us that they can in fact keep our billing information safe. Maybe CCP should just do the right thing instead and make the CSM anonymous.
Okay third thing in CCP Xhagen's statement is that if the anonymity issue keeps people from stepping up he is willing to pay the price. Actually that is the worst thing I have ever heard from a business standpoint when your problem solving and looking for innovation. Your never going to over take other MMOs and acquire more of a market share if your purposefully cutting off a potential stream of solutions and innovations. Those solutions and innovations when applied translate into revenue earned in new player acquisition and player retention.
Finally lets look at CCP's "safety net." CCP Xhagen states if some sort of harassment occurs they will call the authorities. There are a few problems with that. Mainly the authorities get called after the commission of a crime, they show up after the fact which means its too late. We have already had incidents in the past of people getting harassing calls at their homes, work and having their public information posted on these forums which oddly enough CCP frowns on. I don't think I need to rehash the names of banned players who engaged in stalking and being a nuisance. But consider this, CCP has gotten lucky that these people lacked the means or motivation to carry out the commission of a serious crime. What happens when one day some mentally ill person knocks on another players door and the result becomes a shocking story on the news? What happens when a sharp lawyer asks a jury "What should CCP have reasonably done knowing the problems they had to deal with in the past?" How much could CCP afford in attorney costs, settlements and the ensuing PR and media campaign to restore their image? Does it sound almost if not criminally indifferent to you that CCP says "its the authorities problem?" Why should CCP put out players willing to help them improve the game and keeping them viable as a computer game company? You would think a little care on CCP's part would make sense.
Now in the same May-June minutes we have Seleene and Two Step saying this:
Quote:Two step pointed out that it does potentially reduce the diversity of the CSM, and also reduce the likelihood of getting the real assholes. Maybe that latter is a good thing, but it isn't accurately representing the community.
Seleene noted that anonymity does allow people to go the extra mile and be total dicks, so he had to agree with Trebor. Being on CSM requires a certain amount of responsibility and boldness, and if you're not willing to put yourself out there, maybe you shouldn't run.
Guess what we have plenty of jerks on the CSM right now. It doesn't tone down people pushing personal agendas that fail to benefit our broad player base. It doesn't stop Seleene and Two Step calling people concerned about their safety "assholes" and "dicks." In my opinion it takes a massive ******* to say another persons safety doesn't matter. Also its very telling when someone considers your play style to be an indication of you as a human being. That's what every person trying to censor computer games and console games says, "what you do in a game is who you are as a person." What a terrible message to condone. [Continued]
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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 03:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you are wondering how I reach that conclusion its merely a matter of simple logic. As I said early you can only know me from my character name, how I play, who I fly with and how I post. Its impossible for you to know me in an other fashion. EVE is thankfully only a small fraction of my life and it can't show you everything about a person. Now as for Seleene and Two Step are forgetting that people do in fact separate real life from their game play. When they make their argument otherwise its horrifying because they know better. I don't think either of them will tell you they live their life like they play their characters in game.
If you simply take a step back and look at the arguments for exposing the real names of CSM members to the rest of EVE on whatever grounds you like, you will find it just doesn't make sense. I think its time for CCP to step in and fix this for the benefit of everyone. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1106
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 04:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
And if someone's name were to slip out?
What happens then?
It's easier, and safer, for CCP to say 'Real Names'. So there's no possible comeback on them if one of their staff happens, say in an interview, to refer to them by their real name. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2724
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 04:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Exhibit A for passing this |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 04:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:And if someone's name were to slip out?
What happens then?
It's easier, and safer, for CCP to say 'Real Names'. So there's no possible comeback on them if one of their staff happens, say in an interview, to refer to them by their real name.
Why would a name slip out? If CCP can prevent all our billing data and credit card numbers from slipping out I think they can treat a persons name the same way. There is no reason for a staff person to mention a players real name in any context. |
ZionShad
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 05:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1
Great Post Scooter Zion TCD CEO ( ZionTCD.enjin.com ) Co-Host "Podside" Podcast on iTunes DUST 514 Beta Tester -á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1691
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 05:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
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Singular Snowflake
New Order Logistics CODE.
99
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 07:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
I fully support Scooter on this one. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 09:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
Look at that quote. Just look at it. Even on its own, the belief that unpaid consultants deserve to have their personal information revealed for the purposes of encouraging vigilante justice is deplorable; that this was said in the wake of the Fanfest debacle is insulting on top of it.
If Eve's playerbase can be counted on for one thing, it's going too far, and this has been demonstrated time and time again. There is no need at all to release this information to anyone, and doing it despite the issues that come up is irresponsible at best. Doing it to unpaid consultants who give up a year of their time with zero compensation to help you make more money is beyond disgusting. Fix your ****. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Kainotomiu Ronuken
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
796
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 09:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm with Scooter. I don't think that real names have any place in an internet spaceship game, even if the spaceship politicians get to go to Iceland. It simply isn't information that the playerbase needs to know, and the only thing that the players could do with the knowledge is either nothing or harm someone. There's no reason to tell us.
You have become the pubbie, Mittani. Yours is the temple whose technetium-clad tables are at risk of being overthrown, whose seats need mixing. You're the one who fears war. -- Sadleric |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 10:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered.
Personally I think we are too risk adverse to do that, lets get serious for once.
Personally I would stalk trebor, as my CSM of choice. He stirs drama, has nice things, could entertain me with Star Wars quotes.
See we really shouldn't share personal information, once someone lets it slip they have a better Star Wars card collection, or know more about Star Trek then I do, then RL incidents could occur we would all feel bad about. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3911
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 10:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered.
What the **** dude, seriously? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7454
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 10:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. What the **** dude, seriously?
I have a new aspirational goal! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2724
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 10:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
buying up liquid ozone in anticipation for the mass malcanis 'cynobration of life' ceremony |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3251
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 12:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Uh, WTF. Did you even read the minutes you are quoting? I was the strongest advocate for not publishing real names, I guess the thanks I get for that is "Two step thinks you are an *******". Thanks for proving I was right. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. What the **** dude, seriously?
Don't worry Hans, I have full confidence that if Frying Doom's apocalyptic scenario of forced murders happened. You would come out the victor, and only the stalker would have to worry about the fated meeting. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1109
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
So you stand on the stage, with your face broadcast to thousands of people, and someone somewhere recognizes you, and posts your real name, address, etc to reddit. Is CCP now liable for your name getting out, because they broadcast your RL image, even though they didn't give your name? If you then get harrassed, can you sue CCP for a breach of confidentiality?
Perhaps as a company, instead you say that your information will be made public, and it's your choice to run or not.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2417
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7471
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
If anyone is planning to stalk me, I hope they have a very high boredom threshold.
On the other hand, trolling someone so hard that they try and murder me... Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2417
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If anyone is planning to stalk me, I hope they have a very high boredom threshold. On the other hand, trolling someone so hard that they try and murder me...
Can I stalk you? A / S / L? CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
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Zakn Tawate
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
My only Reference is Eve Vegas where we initially all introduced each other in RL names. Within 15 min we still were back to the names that we knew each other in Eve. Hell even the numbers for SMS stuff are labeled by Eve name because that's how I know them.
Hell even at the Gents/Goon party at the Wynn I called everyone by their Eve name. Courthouse, Mittani, Veritas etc. |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you want to be anonymous, don't apply to CSM. It's as simple as that.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
warp drive active |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
121
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
when i run for csm i had to put in my real name, and i made the decision to do so. if you want to represent a community then the community should be able to know who is representing 'em.
and as someone who is voting for CSM, i do want to know the realname of a candidate aswell. i want to be sure that if someone i vote for is the person i think he is, or if its the douchebag who was in last csm just with another character...
if you want anonymity, you shouldn't apply for a public post. 3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Black Legion.
1031
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory. "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
404
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
I oppose this. Just like any other election, I have a right to know who I'm voting for considering that their decisions will greatly impact me in the long run. If you don't want to show your real name, I suggest you don't run for CSM. Adapt or Die |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2553
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is a difficult topic with equities on both sides. Let me give you some of the counter-arguments:
Scooter McCabe wrote:You don't know me in real life, you know me by my character, by my alliance, by my killboard and the posting I do on here. So if I tossed my name out there, how does that allow you to get to know me any better? How does that make me any more accountable than signing my name to a legal document? It doesn't. Your character does not serve on the CSM -- you, the person, do. And your RL qualifications do matter quite a lot.
Quote:Okay third thing in CCP Xhagen's statement is that if the anonymity issue keeps people from stepping up he is willing to pay the price. This is where your best argument is. There are definitely some well-qualified people who will not run for CSM because of possible RL blowback. However, it's not harrassment/stalking that is the major concern -- it's professional consequences. For example, IIRC The Mittani has stated that he would not have run for CSM when he was working as a lawyer, and other people have told me they won't run for the same reason.
From a realistic standpoint, if someone really, really wants to find out who you are in RL, they are going to be able to do it. What serving on the CSM does is make you a more visible member of the community, and thus a larger target. But so does being an Alliance/Coalition leader, or a popular blogger, etc.
As things currently stand, I believe that the balance of equity is in favor of making CSM candidate RL identities public, but not hugely so. However, if there were a way for candidates to be able to disclose their RL qualifications in a verified but anonymous way (for example, CCP validating their claimed resumes), the balance might well tip slightly the other way. But then, the extra effort involved on CCP's end might not be worth it (to CCP). The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory.
CSM isn't "public office"; even the lowest public office has pay and actual power/influence. The choosing of the CSM may be a political process, but you're not a governing body, you're a group of consultants who aren't getting paid. That's an important distinction to make.
The bottom line to me is that the playerbase has absolutely no need or use for your personal information, so CCP has no reason to disclose it at-will to a playerbase who has proven in the past they cannot be trusted with information like this. Yes, the identities might get leaked anyway, and there's obviously no guarantees CCP could make to protect you or your identity in any way, but that doesn't mean they have to default at just handing it over to the players. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1112
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think the only way being anonymous would work would be if you were applying to be a non-trip CSM. Those that don't actually fly over, should in reality be just as important of a voice as those that do, but don't appear that way. If people wanted to remain anonymous, but help beef up the bench, so to speak, then that would be a compromise i could go along with.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7474
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zakn Tawate wrote:My only Reference is Eve Vegas where we initially all introduced each other in RL names. Within 15 min we still were back to the names that we knew each other in Eve. Hell even the numbers for SMS stuff are labeled by Eve name because that's how I know them.
Hell even at the Gents/Goon party at the Wynn I called everyone by their Eve name. Courthouse, Mittani, Veritas etc.
My EVE name is much cooler than my disappointing RL name. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 16:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v
The company already knows my and that's the point. Only they need to know it and everyone else can know you by your character. What does knowing my name tell you about me, what does my name have to do with my knowledge of the game or ideas?
Now Trebor's post is makes some points similiar to Seleene's but ultimately comes back to the fact that CCP will know who you are.
Quote:Your character does not serve on the CSM -- you, the person, do. And your RL qualifications do matter quite a lot.
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. Lets say someone creates a text based MMO game and then turns around and claims they are an game engineer of a massive MMO. Its not being very honest, its a text based MMO and doesn't match the scope and complexity of the coding, graphics and maintenance of EVE Online. Perhaps if that claim was made with no way to verify it, unless the person decides to out themselves that's their business, people can't bend the truth for a free trip to Iceland.
Quote:From a realistic standpoint, if someone really, really wants to find out who you are in RL, they are going to be able to do it. What serving on the CSM does is make you a more visible member of the community, and thus a larger target. But so does being an Alliance/Coalition leader, or a popular blogger, etc.
Okay if someone really, really wants to find out my billing information I suppose CCP is powerless to protect my credit card number. If that's the case we have a community wide duty to demand CCP prove they can protect that information. Of course we know they can because its never been leaked out before and the legal liability is something CCP doesn't want to face. If CCP gets caught with its pants down because it lazily opted to do nothing despite evidence and warnings that should have prompted action, the lawsuit will be financially devastating. Its not a question of if they will get sued, but when. To ignore a preventable problem by taking only a little care is as callous as Winter Blink saying:
Quote:If you want to be anonymous, don't apply to CSM. It's as simple as that.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
This is the best quote of all because it ultimately sums up any argument made to deny CSM members anonymity, there is simply no logic behind it. You won't find any logic or reasoning behind the statement because there is no to support it. If you look past the initial statement's face value there simply isn't anything there. I'm not sorry to say that's the case for some of the more eloquently crafted posts against anonymity, those posts are the same but come in much nicer packaging.
Oh and as a Parthian shot to this post you'll notice that every CSM member and CSM hopeful that runs on their character name. Look at some of the signatures in the posts by CSM members. Go to their websites and see if its John Smith 2013 or their character name and a catchy campaign slogan. They don't use their real name because its not what you know them by, and I assume when possible they would rather not have the community at large know who they are because they don't seem to use their real names in the CSM minutes or here on the forums.
Come on guys how about being the decent human beings you purport yourselves to be and actually support this measure. Its meant to benefit everyone including CCP. |
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Callduron
173
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt? |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt?
You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories?
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Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2553
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published?
That being said, Xhagen said himself at the summer Summit that he believes in publishing RL names as something to dangle over candidates' heads for behavioral purposes. If he's such a firm believer in the importance of credentials, why didn't he say that? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2422
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v
Quoting this to make sure that everyone sees the attitude their voted advocacy group chair takes towards relevant issues because holy ******* **** "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v
Please tell me your not advocating maintaining the status quo for the sake of the status quo. Please tell me people did not vote for you to say "Well CCP set it up that way so that's the way it is." How many things has the CSM pushed CCP to change because the initial set up was flawed? I absolutely hate bringing this up but how many social justice issues ran into apologists saying "it's just the way it is" and I only ask that for you to seriously consider what you've just said.
This behavioral angle that you say CCP Xhagen is after, explain to me how CCP's vetting process doesn't already do that. What grim fascination does he have with publishing people's names and I assume he took more than two minutes to wonder about the legal implications of all this. I hope so after all the business he works for is potentially on the line. If CCP Xhagen wants to make the argument that a person's character somehow determines their effectiveness as at consultation and administration he is welcome to put forward that logical fallacy. I'd also like to believe the EVE community at large can separate serious CSM candidates from the chaff based on the issues.
Now if your using the release of names to purposefully exclude members of the community from actually being in a position to help direct the course of the game because you don't like the way someone plays or your vision of what the player base should be is narrow, then your making the wrong call ethically and business wise. |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2423
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v Quoting this to make sure that everyone sees the attitude their voted advocacy group chair takes towards relevant issues because holy ******* ****
I'll quote you quoting me. I'm perfectly fine with it because this is not a new issue and it's been discussed ad nauseum with CCP Xhagen in the past. All I'm doing is relaying what CSM after CSM has been told over and over. CCP has proven to be completely inflexible on this issue for reasons that make sense to them. That is their prerogative since the CSM is a real life 'thing' and they choose to run it in the way they run it. You can call it me having an attitude if you like, but it doesn't change the reality of what is.
Scooter McCabe wrote:Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v Please tell me your not advocating maintaining the status quo for the sake of the status quo. Please tell me people did not vote for you to say "Well CCP set it up that way so that's the way it is." How many things has the CSM pushed CCP to change because the initial set up was flawed? I absolutely hate bringing this up but how many social justice issues ran into apologists saying "it's just the way it is" and I only ask that for you to seriously consider what you've just said.
Nope, I'm not advocating anything, just passing along that this subject has come up nearly every election season and at multiple summits as well. CCP's response has always been the same. I have no reason to believe it will EVER change. As my first comment in this thread states, I also happen to agree with it.
Scooter McCabe wrote:If CCP Xhagen wants to make the argument that a person's character somehow determines their effectiveness as at consultation and administration he is welcome to put forward that logical fallacy.
No problem. I'll shoot him an email with a link to this thread in a few minutes and ask him to reply to it when he can. That way we can stop arguing amongst ourselves and you can discuss it with the man himself. How is that for advocacy? Fair nuff? CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Black Legion.
1031
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v Quoting this to make sure that everyone sees the attitude their voted advocacy group chair takes towards relevant issues because holy ******* **** >implying issue is relevant "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:>implying issue is relevant
It was part of the summer Summit and included in the minutes. If that doesn't make it a relevant topic of conversation, I don't know what does.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
|
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2554
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:47:00 -
[41] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published? It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications. The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2425
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published? It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.
Damnit, I just bought this Sarcasm Meter!!! Now I have to get another one!! CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.
Right, and the only solution you can think of to this is to publish RL information and encourage the playerbase to go stalking to verify if their claims are true? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2554
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Right, and the only solution you can think of to this is to publish RL information and encourage the playerbase to go stalking to verify if their claims are true? So verifying someone's resume is stalking, is it? I enjoy forum performance art as much as anyone, but I rather think you've taken a left turn into the Theatre of the Absurd.
That said, I am sure that CCP Xhagen will find your positions interesting reading when he graces us with his polite but looming presence. I look forward to reading his response. The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Someone's RL identity has as much bearing on whether they can adequately represent the EVE population as their choice of boxers, briefs, or panties. My choice is still going to boil down to whether they have a good grasp of fundamental EVE mechanics, and that they can communicate effectively with the community, translating those desires into constructive feedback to CCP -- even if those desires contradict their own personal ones.
warp drive active |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:So verifying someone's resume is stalking, is it? I enjoy forum performance art as much as anyone, but I rather think you've taken a left turn into the Theatre of the Absurd.
That said, I am sure that CCP Xhagen will find your positions interesting reading when he graces us with his polite but looming presence. I look forward to reading his response.
I'm glad you mentioned the resume thing: I actually peeked back at the candidacy threads of all y'all that were elected. A whopping 4 of 14 of you made any reference at all to your RL selves, and only yourself and Seleene went into any detail (Two Step just briefly mentioned his name and occupation, and Meissa just made a not-detailed mention of past jobs he's had as a developer). Even among those of you who released RL information, only Seleene's was any significant part of what they ran on (understandable given he was a former CCP dev). I don't think this whole "verifying RL credentials" thing is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be.
Can it be a benefit? Absolutely. It should also be the candidate's choice whether they choose to use that to their advantage in an election or not. All this talk of CCP appreciating the value of RL credentials is irrelevant, as they have no say in choosing who actually gets elected (and if they wanted to start vetting RL credentials for candidates, they could still do this themselves without releasing the information to the playerbase). "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2311
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Stuff
So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.
And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do.
I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way.
So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM.
Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates.
Issler |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.
Right, and the only reason this happened is because CCP released your name when you became a candidate. Without that, there's nothing to go on that you yourself don't volunteer (and if you do volunteer it, then it's your own problem).
If CCP had any good reason to publish your name, then you're right, this would be an unfortunate consequence. What we're saying is that they DON'T have a good reason to release it, and thus shouldn't. Things like this happening to you or anyone else are simply reinforcing that. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1695
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 21:19:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. What the **** dude, seriously? Apparently Hans you have either led a sheltered life or you overstimate the ability of the human mind.
I personally would not risk the probability of their being a fractured mind in a group of people as large as EvE. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 21:29:00 -
[50] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:
Stuff
So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me. And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do. I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way. So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM. Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates. Issler
Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.
Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?
Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling. |
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2312
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 22:31:00 -
[51] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:
Stuff
So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me. And to be clear I believe this was a result of the individual in question doing this on their own and not something the goons directed him to do. I pretty much ignored it as more asshatery. No one else in Eve has let my RL identity affect me in any way. So mostly I just chalk it up to one of the commitments you have to make to try and help make Eve a better place as part of the CSM. Sorry if this would keep some good candidates from running for the CSM, but if you participate in ANY social sites like facebook for example I expect you are at greater risk than running for CSM creates. Issler Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base. Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure? Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.
I should be clear that I was offering my thoughts as having been directly involved in the situation. Just my opinion, in the end I decided I was OK with it so I can't claim to be an advocate for driving a change in policy.
I totally can understand folks finding issues with the policy. I would be very interested in hearing from folks with standing in the community that believe the disclosure is what prevents them from running for the CSM.
So again, just sharing what I thought about it and how it has affected me. Not advocating a position either way.
Issler
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 22:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
I totally can understand folks finding issues with the policy. I would be very interested in hearing from folks with standing in the community that believe the disclosure is what prevents them from running for the CSM.
Issler
What do you mean by "folks with standing in this community?" I assume your not trying to sound elitist or suggest their are only certain sections of "this community" you care to represent or work with.
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
696
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v
You are literally ******** if you think being an unpaid volunteer video game consultant should mean you give up your own personal safety. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1119
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
I do find it heartening that in just a short years time, a group of people that sought to make a player kill himself because it'd be funny to them if someone took the game that seriously, is now spearheading a player safety campaign. It doesn't come across as self-serving in any way that they perhaps don't want their in game asshattery to effect their real lives. After seeing what happened to that reddit guy after he got outed, I guess it makes sense.
It still comes down to it that running for CSM is a choice, a choice with consequences. If you're not happy with those consequences, it's entirely your choice not to run. CCP gets enough candidates now without having to change their rules, so unless that changes, they will probably keep with their rules as is.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3258
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.
Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?
Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.
As I said, and you ignored before, I argued during the very summit session you are talking about that there is no reason to disclose player names. I don't think it acts as a real deterrent, especially for people with common names. If some dude named John Smith runs for CSM, he can be all the ******* he wants to be without any real conseqences. Those of us with unique names don't get that, and it isn't fair or needed. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
97
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
Two step wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:
Your information should not be public, and I am glad it was just a case of asshatery. But what if it didn't just end there? You talk about commitments but is CCP and the CSM really committed to player safety and representing the community at large when you have a number of CSM members talking like this? You'll argue about election systems because community representation and the player base is important to you, this issue also goes to the heart of representing the community and looking out for the player base.
Oh and on social sites like Facebook you can control who see's your profile and what they can see on it. Disclosure of that information is up to the user not the company. Hey maybe CCP and the CSM can at least go half way and give CSM members the option to choose privacy or full disclosure?
Right now I am only hearing specious arguments for full disclosure. The fact that its coming from the CSM who are supposed to be on guard for specious arguments for how things are done in the game is troubling.
As I said, and you ignored before, I argued during the very summit session you are talking about that there is no reason to disclose player names. I don't think it acts as a real deterrent, especially for people with common names. If some dude named John Smith runs for CSM, he can be all the ******* he wants to be without any real conseqences. Those of us with unique names don't get that, and it isn't fair or needed.
Okay so do you want to publicly call out the rest of the CSM and CCP here in this thread and help me push for change or do you want to sit on the sideline? |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:48:00 -
[57] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Callduron wrote:Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt? You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories?
Sorry, I'm calling bull**** on this.
How do you justify which character is your main?
As many long-time EVE players have 2,3 4 or 14 accounts, which one is your main?
I have four accounts, and post in the forums with all of them, in different ways. Some of those accounts I even post on the 2nd and third slot character.
Which one is my main?
Is it the Titan pilot I bought off of the bazaar, because it has the most SP? Is it the hisec mission runner I use to fund my PvP? Is it the trader I have parked in Jita buying and selling mods all day long? Is it the space priest I bring on big fleet ops in null sec? Is it the carrier pilot who taxis my stuff all over new eden? Is it the PI alt who does nothing but process Electrolytes? Is it the losec pirate/ganker with -9.5 sec status?
All of those characters above, and the ones I didn't list, can come and go as they please. Sure, I could forge an identity around a character, and spend time and energy developing the awareness of that character across the forums and the other out of game tools like twitter. And if that identity gets elected, and then booted, or slacks off horridly, what stops me from doing it all over with another character on another account?
The only singular truth to who I am (and I certainly am not running for CSM) is my identity in real life. And if I am supposed to represent players in some fashion on the CSM, they deserve to know they aren't electing Trebor's industry alt.
oh, and I guess it's unclear that I'm NOT Trebor's industry alt. |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Callduron wrote:Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt? You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories? Sorry, I'm calling bull**** on this. How do you justify which character is your main? As many long-time EVE players have 2,3 4 or 14 accounts, which one is your main? I have four accounts, and post in the forums with all of them, in different ways. Some of those accounts I even post on the 2nd and third slot character. Which one is my main? Is it the Titan pilot I bought off of the bazaar, because it has the most SP? Is it the hisec mission runner I use to fund my PvP? Is it the trader I have parked in Jita buying and selling mods all day long? Is it the space priest I bring on big fleet ops in null sec? Is it the carrier pilot who taxis my stuff all over new eden? Is it the PI alt who does nothing but process Electrolytes? Is it the losec pirate/ganker with -9.5 sec status? All of those characters above, and the ones I didn't list, can come and go as they please. Sure, I could forge an identity around a character, and spend time and energy developing the awareness of that character across the forums and the other out of game tools like twitter. And if that identity gets elected, and then booted, or slacks off horridly, what stops me from doing it all over with another character on another account? The only singular truth to who I am (and I certainly am not running for CSM) is my identity in real life. And if I am supposed to represent players in some fashion on the CSM, they deserve to know they aren't electing Trebor's industry alt. oh, and I guess it's unclear that I'm NOT Trebor's industry alt.
Person gets booted from the CSM they can't come back so that argument is moot. Slacks off horridly, someone is going to take the time to run just to slack off? Nice try but going through CCP's vetting process and getting that passport, travel to Iceland for the purpose of work is to much effort. And your right people deserve to know they are not elected an alt, so the candidates can and must declare their alts. So you still have your disclosure of who your electing without having to know their real name.
At the end of the day you can still be accountable to your voters and CCP. I await your counter argument.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
^ But what if the mittani wore a mustache, when he went to visit in Iceland for summits.
You almost thought of everything. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2427
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v You are literally ******** if you think being an unpaid volunteer video game consultant should mean you give up your own personal safety.
But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point... CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:21:00 -
[61] - Quote
rodyas wrote:^ But what if the mittani wore a mustache, when he went to visit in Iceland for summits.
You almost thought of everything.
Sadly someone on the CSM or CCP at this point would probably take that joke and tout it as the overwhelming argument that decides this matter. I mean look at what Seleene just wrote:
Quote:But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point...
When your trying to sidestep an argument by pulling a comparison to FOX News your right up there with invoking Godwin's Law and by that point you should have the good grace to admit your position needs to change and things are getting silly. I hope the CSM will recognize not pushing for anonymity is simply silly, after all they were the ones who brought up the theater of the absurd after all. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:rodyas wrote:^ But what if the mittani wore a mustache, when he went to visit in Iceland for summits.
You almost thought of everything. Sadly someone on the CSM or CCP at this point would probably take that joke and tout it as the overwhelming argument that decides this matter. I mean look at what Seleene just wrote: Quote:But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point... When your trying to sidestep an argument by pulling a comparison to FOX News your right up there with invoking Godwin's Law and by that point you should have the good grace to admit your position needs to change and things are getting silly. I hope the CSM will recognize not pushing for anonymity is simply silly, after all they were the ones who brought up the theater of the absurd after all.
Well to take your point seriously and turn this into CNN, for when it matters most.
There have been murders or physical fights over games before, so you can study them and apply them to CSM. From my memory a CSM member would have to steal a lot of ISK or many titans from a player before they would have to worry. Or if they are online with players that use a lot verbal abuse and let it get to them or so. There is also the flip side, you spend too much time away from family or work because of the CSM position, and end up divorced or fired from work or depressed.
Unless you can find different articles it doesn't seem like they risk much from coming out with their real name, unless they plan on doing those above mentioned items. ( Or if you are Darius III and do it anyways, he should be our canary in the coal mine, how far you can go, before you really don't want your real life name public.) Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v
Can you call me Beowulf? Beowulf Pulitzer. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:rodyas wrote:^ But what if the mittani wore a mustache, when he went to visit in Iceland for summits.
You almost thought of everything. Sadly someone on the CSM or CCP at this point would probably take that joke and tout it as the overwhelming argument that decides this matter. I mean look at what Seleene just wrote: Quote:But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point... When your trying to sidestep an argument by pulling a comparison to FOX News your right up there with invoking Godwin's Law and by that point you should have the good grace to admit your position needs to change and things are getting silly. I hope the CSM will recognize not pushing for anonymity is simply silly, after all they were the ones who brought up the theater of the absurd after all. Well to take your point seriously and turn this into CNN, for when it matters most. There have been murders or physical fights over games before, so you can study them and apply them to CSM. From my memory a CSM member would have to steal a lot of ISK or many titans from a player before they would have to worry. Or if they are online with players that use a lot verbal abuse and let it get to them or so. There is also the flip side, you spend too much time away from family or work because of the CSM position, and end up divorced or fired from work or depressed. Unless you can find different articles it doesn't seem like they risk much from coming out with their real name, unless they plan on doing those above mentioned items. ( Or if you are Darius III and do it anyways, he should be our canary in the coal mine, how far you can go, before you really don't want your real life name public.)
So now your recognizing there would be a time when anonymity would be appropriate. Rather than force CCP to do a case by case basis blanket anonymity for CSM members becomes the simplest solution. It encourages more people to get involved, removes participation bias, promotes safety and hedges against serious legal liability.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
Well my view mostly went with if you antagonize other players or people, most like physical conflict and such can happen. Most CSM people usually are not like that, so for the majority no worry suppose would be needed.
Of course over more time, different CSM personalities could win and be on the council. So I suppose a watchful eye could be needed. Of course that bleeds into election reform, which is a heinous issue, which almost makes me share Frying Doom's vision of this game.
As for removes participation bias, I do know some players love the darker side of EVE, so coming to the light side would be hard for them. Not really sure what advice there is for wanting to become CSM and having to deal with so much light all the time.
Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7497
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Brunaburh wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Callduron wrote:Is this an effort to let Mittens run again on an alt? You have to run with your main character just like everyone does now. Before you dazzle us with another pithy post keep in mind CCP knows your account information and who your main is, and requires players to already declare their main character. Does that make sense or do you want to just put on the tinfoil hat now and start posting conspiracy theories? Sorry, I'm calling bull**** on this. How do you justify which character is your main? As many long-time EVE players have 2,3 4 or 14 accounts, which one is your main? I have four accounts, and post in the forums with all of them, in different ways. Some of those accounts I even post on the 2nd and third slot character. Which one is my main? Is it the Titan pilot I bought off of the bazaar, because it has the most SP? Is it the hisec mission runner I use to fund my PvP? Is it the trader I have parked in Jita buying and selling mods all day long? Is it the space priest I bring on big fleet ops in null sec? Is it the carrier pilot who taxis my stuff all over new eden? Is it the PI alt who does nothing but process Electrolytes? Is it the losec pirate/ganker with -9.5 sec status? All of those characters above, and the ones I didn't list, can come and go as they please. Sure, I could forge an identity around a character, and spend time and energy developing the awareness of that character across the forums and the other out of game tools like twitter. And if that identity gets elected, and then booted, or slacks off horridly, what stops me from doing it all over with another character on another account? The only singular truth to who I am (and I certainly am not running for CSM) is my identity in real life. And if I am supposed to represent players in some fashion on the CSM, they deserve to know they aren't electing Trebor's industry alt. oh, and I guess it's unclear that I'm NOT Trebor's industry alt. Person gets booted from the CSM they can't come back so that argument is moot. Slacks off horridly, someone is going to take the time to run just to slack off? Nice try but going through CCP's vetting process and getting that passport, travel to Iceland for the purpose of work is to much effort. And your right people deserve to know they are not elected an alt, so the candidates can and must declare their alts. So you still have your disclosure of who your electing without having to know their real name. At the end of the day you can still be accountable to your voters and CCP. I await your counter argument and it doesn't matter to me what character you post with.
Counterpoint: Darius III went to that much effort twice. Running on an alt hardly ups the threshold very much. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
270
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:25:00 -
[67] - Quote
@Scooter McCabe:
I read the whole thread. I do respect that you don't want to give up your privacy. I wouldn't like to do this either, especially since my RL name is less common.
But you cannot represent me as a player with your avatar. It simply doesn't work for me. For all I know, you're Scooter McCabe, just another avatar, one of hundreds of thousands in this game.
By coming out of anonymity you commit yourself as a player to represent me (as a player) and if I like what I hear or read about/from you, I'll give you my votes. Because from that moment on you do this as a player, even if you still do it through your avatar.
If the CSM became an anonymous entity they would stop to represent me (as a player) and I would stop supporting them by giving my votes.
If the CSM is not worth to give up your privacy, do not run for it. Remove insurance. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
Seleene wrote:But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point...
You can even ignore the "personal safety" stuff if you want. Take a look at Issler's situation - someone found RL info about her and tried to use it to creep her out. Definitely not "personal danger" stuff, but very easily "disturbing your life" stuff. Let's say that happens to you - now you have to think about how far this idiot is going to go. Prank calls? Work calls? Death threats? All of the above? Sure, a prank call isn't going to make you immediately be ~unsafe~, but it's bullshit that you now have to deal with because CCP decided to publish your name.
So now we get back to the real crux of the issue that keeps getting avoided - WHY does CCP have to publish your name? Let's stick with Xhagen's own justification from the minutes for simplicity's sake:
Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
I'm going to ignore the logical stupidity of "we can't guarantee anonymity so we're removing it entirely" and focus on the real issue, which I've bolded.
Creating accountability. Xhagen's amalgam of vigilante justice and just world fallacy rolled up into one purely psychotic idea.
Willingly giving RL information to a playerbase that can, has, and most likely will go too far with it if they are so inclined as a method of policing behavior? That's unbelievable treatment for a paid employee - but for an unpaid consultant volunteering great amounts of their time to help you as a company succeed? There just aren't words for that level of disrespect. That any of you are lining up lockstep and saying "well, I personally haven't felt it's a problem" is just an extra layer of sad on top of all of it. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:59:00 -
[69] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:@Scooter McCabe:
I read the whole thread. I do respect that you don't want to give up your privacy. I wouldn't like to do this either, especially since my RL name is less common.
But you cannot represent me as a player with your avatar. It simply doesn't work for me. For all I know, you're Scooter McCabe, just another avatar, one of hundreds of thousands in this game.
By coming out of anonymity you commit yourself as a player to represent me (as a player) and if I like what I hear or read about/from you, I'll give you my votes. Because from that moment on you do this as a player, even if you still do it through your avatar.
If the CSM became an anonymous entity they would stop to represent me (as a player) and I would stop supporting them by giving my votes.
If the CSM is not worth to give up your privacy, do not run for it.
What your describing is the fallacy of voting for the "Family Values Candidate." Essentially your equating a set of personality traits with effective representation. This is where you have the highest chance of electing someone who is going to be a slacker or horrid as a previous poster feared. First not knowing a person's real name is going to force you to actually focus on the issues at hand. Second you already know a person far better from their character and postings on the forum, adding a real life name isn't going to add to your depth of understanding about that person. Finally because they are a player in this game, on the same server as you and interested just as much as you in seeing it run well they absolutely represent you. To put it another what your saying is if someone has a great idea for this game you wouldn't support them because you don''t know their name. What if I just discounted your entire argument because I just assumed your posting with an alt and I don't know you? If you take this all into consideration there is no reason not to support my position. |
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CCP Xhagen
C C P C C P Alliance
343
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
Thank you all for a lively discussion on this topic. While I appreciate that this is being discussed, CCP's stance on the matter hasn't changed.
Why you ask? Because the privacy matter is the strongest factor - characters are not running for the CSM, real people are where your character name gives you the EVE reputation (and you can run with whatever character you wish). IF CCP would not publish the RL names and country of residence, it would be implicitly stated that we would keep them a secret.
That we cannot promise.
In fact we would be opening up for potential liability - even though we would go the route of not actually confirming that we would keep that information secret, we would still be implicitly promising something we cannot keep as everyone would be interpret it that way. I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind).
That is why it was decided to go the much cleaner way of stating that we will disclose this information and leaving the participation in the CSM up to the person who wants to run - they can then make an informed decision. That also allows us to use the CSM, and pictures and names of those members, for PR purposes. Additionally RL laws and protection applies to the people on the CSM and CCP is not making any promises that it cannot keep.
Snow Axe wrote:Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character. I'm going to ignore the logical stupidity of "we can't guarantee anonymity so we're removing it entirely" and focus on the real issue, which I've bolded. Creating accountability. Xhagen's amalgam of vigilante justice and just world fallacy rolled up into one purely psychotic idea. Willingly giving RL information to a playerbase that can, has, and most likely will go too far with it if they are so inclined as a method of policing behavior? For an unpaid consultant volunteering great amounts of their time to help you as a company succeed? There just aren't words for that level of disrespect. That any of you are lining up lockstep and saying "well, I personally haven't felt it's a problem" is just an extra layer of sad on top of all of it.
When talking about human nature (which is not the real issue, as you mistakenly conclude), the street goes both ways. Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences. And this has nothing to do with 'vigilante justice' or 'just world fallacy' - most countries have laws that protect the citizens and police forces that can be contacted if a person believes that those same laws have been broken. CCP Xhagen | Senior Researcher CSM Project Manager
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 16:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
I get it now, it's just about covering your legal bases, not at all about having RL issues tied directly to you being on the council or anyth-
Page 7, May-June Summit minutes:
Quote:CCP Xhagen expressed concerns about accountability. "How do you ensure that you behave like civilized people?" Two step: Do you think having my real name...? CCP Xhagen: Yes
Page 8, May-June Summit minutes:
Quote:CCP Xhagen : I decided upon this specifically because of accountability and social awareness -- if you do something stupid, your real life name is associated to the character, and you get a reputation in real life...
"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong" "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7502
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 17:00:00 -
[72] - Quote
I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2314
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 17:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:
I totally can understand folks finding issues with the policy. I would be very interested in hearing from folks with standing in the community that believe the disclosure is what prevents them from running for the CSM.
Issler
What do you mean by "folks with standing in this community?" I assume your not trying to sound elitist or suggest their are only certain sections of "this community" you care to represent or work with.
Because I wouldn't pay any attention to some random alt with no history in Eve we can identify saying "I'd be a rockstar CSM but I'm not running because I have to give my name!".
Issler |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2427
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 17:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is.
I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget. CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Singular Snowflake
New Order Logistics CODE.
99
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 17:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:I get it now, it's just about covering your legal bases, not at all about having RL issues tied directly to you being on the council or anyth- Page 7, May-June Summit minutes: Quote:CCP Xhagen expressed concerns about accountability. "How do you ensure that you behave like civilized people?" Two step: Do you think having my real name...? CCP Xhagen: Yes Page 8, May-June Summit minutes: Quote:CCP Xhagen : I decided upon this specifically because of accountability and social awareness -- if you do something stupid, your real life name is associated to the character, and you get a reputation in real life... "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"
CCP Xhagen, can you address these points? In what way is it acceptable to use the CMS reps real names as a threat against them, if they do not "behave" correctly?
There are many different kinds of playstyles in this game. For a simple example, many carebear miners feel that ganking and supporting ganking is unacceptable behavior. Do we want those people to use this "accountability" of real names against a CMS member in real life? |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
398
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 17:44:00 -
[76] - Quote
Y'know, I'm with Malcanis here. I'd just as soon remain anonymous, but Frying Doom's tasteless predictions are pretty damn unlikely, and I can deal with some crankpot stalkerish crap on its own. Frankly, the exposure would probably do me some good overall - I share a name with a famous harvard professor and a disgraced college athlete, so the bump in google search results ranking could be a benefit. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7503
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 18:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Malcanis wrote:I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget.
Hire bodyguards, got it. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7503
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 18:14:00 -
[78] - Quote
Singular Snowflake wrote:Snow Axe wrote:I get it now, it's just about covering your legal bases, not at all about having RL issues tied directly to you being on the council or anyth- Page 7, May-June Summit minutes: Quote:CCP Xhagen expressed concerns about accountability. "How do you ensure that you behave like civilized people?" Two step: Do you think having my real name...? CCP Xhagen: Yes Page 8, May-June Summit minutes: Quote:CCP Xhagen : I decided upon this specifically because of accountability and social awareness -- if you do something stupid, your real life name is associated to the character, and you get a reputation in real life... "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong" CCP Xhagen, can you address these points? In what way is it acceptable to use the CMS reps real names as a threat against them, if they do not "behave" correctly? There are many different kinds of playstyles in this game. For a simple example, many carebear miners feel that ganking and supporting ganking is unacceptable behavior. Do we want those people to use this "accountability" of real names against a CMS member in real life?
If I get elected as a CSM and I do something you don't like, then you're absolutely and 100% entitled to gank me in game for it. Indeed, I would encourage you to make the attempt.
I've been doomsdayed for advocating the Titannerf. That killmail is a badge of pride for me. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7505
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 18:22:00 -
[79] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Y'know, I'm with Malcanis here. I'd just as soon remain anonymous, but Frying Doom's tasteless predictions are pretty damn unlikely, and I can deal with some crankpot stalkerish crap on its own. Frankly, the exposure would probably do me some good overall - I share a name with a famous harvard professor and a disgraced college athlete, so the bump in google search results ranking could be a benefit.
To put it another way, the actuarial risk compares pretty favourably with the risk I take crossing the damb road every day after I get off the bus home from work.
(It's a pretty busy road) Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3913
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 18:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
Singular Snowflake wrote: CCP Xhagen, can you address these points? In what way is it acceptable to use the CMS reps real names as a threat against them, if they do not "behave" correctly?
I'm fairly certain he's not "threatening" the CSM here but rather pointing out that having your real name on the line should act as a strong deterrent to gross misconduct.
Singular Snowflake wrote: There are many different kinds of playstyles in this game. For a simple example, many carebear miners feel that ganking and supporting ganking is unacceptable behavior. Do we want those people to use this "accountability" of real names against a CMS member in real life?
I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strongest example we have of harassment in recent history is that of Alex G. following the incident at FF, but this was in response to misconduct that had nothing to do with whether The Mittani likes to mine or pew. It is highly unlikely that the media would waste their time and money to call out a CSM member for taking a stance on an in-game political issue....but actions such as harassment, NDA breach, or other things that a -person- does, not a character, carry RL consequences of their own, and its kind of ridiculous that we have built a game around understanding the ramifications of one's actions and yet people are seriously advocating shielding the CSM from risk at the same time.
The white paper (and everyone else that has ever sat on the CSM) can testify clearly that no one is running simply as a character with a set of policies and preferences, but as an EVE online player with a responsbility to advocate and protect the interests of the entire community. This work goes beyond the scope of character and involves a host of legal responsibility and liability, and CSM members are entrusted with sensitive business information. Combined with the fact that the CSM also exists to hold the company accountable (remember T20?) a lack of transparency with regards to CSM identity calls into question the integrity of the institution in the first place.
Seeing as how the new Senior Producer, CCP Seagull, has proven she can very clearly identify and distinguish between the two (player vs character) and wants business decisions to be made with this in mind, the idea of "but its just space stuff with space people!" is unlikely to go very far. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Niveuss Nye
The Advent of Faith
15
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 19:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Yeah, guys, it is true you do serve some function in the development process.
BUT - at it's core the CSM is a PR program as well. A good one, I might add, too that other video game companies would do wise to emulate.
Your real names are no big deal. As far as psychopaths out there, it comes with the territory. Once you get a cool position, it can attact idiots. I am sure even the CCP devs have had thier share of "crazy idiot stalker" fan stories they can share with you over a cocktail.
Fortunately, they are a tiny minority of the Eve fanbase. There are authorities and laws that protect society against sick people. Whether you are a Hollywood actor, a bussinessman, or an internet spaceship politician getting to have trips to Iceland and input on cool stuff.
NOW - CCP starts giving out addresses, phone numbers, and starts encouraging folks to show up at your door - I would agree, that is a bit much. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3915
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 21:45:00 -
[82] - Quote
Niveuss Nye wrote: BUT - at it's core the CSM is a PR program as well.
I sure wish CCP would go around and use the CSM as part of their PR efforts, it might actually end the perennial wave of "Who the eff are these dudes and why should I care?" questions we receive (from people actually familiar the game, let alone the mass public).
Also, the more public support and attention that CCP provided, the more the CSM could simply focus on working with the developers on fixing the game, and less on having to handle all the media relations ourselves just to prove we actually do something useful.
But alas.... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1696
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 21:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Y'know, I'm with Malcanis here. I'd just as soon remain anonymous, but Frying Doom's tasteless predictions are pretty damn unlikely, and I can deal with some crankpot stalkerish crap on its own. Frankly, the exposure would probably do me some good overall - I share a name with a famous harvard professor and a disgraced college athlete, so the bump in google search results ranking could be a benefit. Yes my argument is the extreme and frankly absurd level of possibility.
It is very much taking the argument to the extreme but having said that I would still rather remain invisible and comment on the forums than have anyone have my real name, especially as there are 2 people in all of Australia with my name, including myself.
So look at it this way, the CSM is safe, I will never run. So yes giving out real names does have its plus side Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3915
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 22:04:00 -
[84] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:So look at it this way, the CSM is safe, I will never run. So yes giving out real names does have its plus side
Do we really need to discuss this more or can we just hold this up as irrefutable proof that the rules are working as intended? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 02:53:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So look at it this way, the CSM is safe, I will never run. So yes giving out real names does have its plus side Do we really need to discuss this more or can we just hold this up as irrefutable proof that the rules are working as intended?
No don't be an intellectual slob, I shall address CCP Xhagen's post and refute it.
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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 03:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Thank you all for a lively discussion on this topic. While I appreciate that this is being discussed, CCP's stance on the matter hasn't changed. Why you ask? Because the privacy matter is the strongest factor - characters are not running for the CSM, real people are where your character name gives you the EVE reputation (and you can run with whatever character you wish). IF CCP would not publish the RL names and country of residence, it would be implicitly stated that we would keep them a secret. That we cannot promise. In fact we would be opening up for potential liability - even though we would go the route of not actually confirming that we would keep that information secret, we would still be implicitly promising something we cannot keep as everyone would be interpret it that way. I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind). That is why it was decided to go the much cleaner way of stating that we will disclose this information and leaving the participation in the CSM up to the person who wants to run - they can then make an informed decision. That also allows us to use the CSM, and pictures and names of those members, for PR purposes. Additionally RL laws and protection applies to the people on the CSM and CCP is not making any promises that it cannot keep. Snow Axe wrote:Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character. I'm going to ignore the logical stupidity of "we can't guarantee anonymity so we're removing it entirely" and focus on the real issue, which I've bolded. Creating accountability. Xhagen's amalgam of vigilante justice and just world fallacy rolled up into one purely psychotic idea. Willingly giving RL information to a playerbase that can, has, and most likely will go too far with it if they are so inclined as a method of policing behavior? For an unpaid consultant volunteering great amounts of their time to help you as a company succeed? There just aren't words for that level of disrespect. That any of you are lining up lockstep and saying "well, I personally haven't felt it's a problem" is just an extra layer of sad on top of all of it. When talking about human nature (which is not the real issue, as you mistakenly conclude), the street goes both ways. Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences. And this has nothing to do with 'vigilante justice' or 'just world fallacy' - most countries have laws that protect the citizens and police forces that can be contacted if a person believes that those same laws have been broken.
CCP Xhagen, you are hereby challenged to explain why CCP can protect our billing information that contains bank account and credit card numbers along with the real life names of players not on the CSM. If you say CCP is incapable of simply protecting a name of a CSM member and yet some how rise to the challenge of protecting the financial information and real name of other players then there most be some sort of inconsistency. Either CCP's security is fundamentally flawed or someone is simply being lazy.
You speak of fundamental promises of privacy, and yet CCP is bound to protect my financial data. Its a promise you are able to keep. How hard is it to only refer to someone as their character name for example: "Hello CSM Seleene I trust your not asking people for their age, sex and location in jest in posts about player privacy?"
As for you not being a lawyer I most certainly agree. Knowing CCP retains in house council why not seek their counsel on this matter? I am certain they will tell you that when a company does all it reasonably can to ensure the safety of clients and consumers the weight of liability on their part is greatly decreased when assessing culpability.
When you talk about being able to use CSM members names and pictures for your companies purposes I think its safe to say IDing someone by picture along is rather difficult. I myself find it hard guess the name of a person by their picture alone. Whats more, why not simply refer to them as CSM Seleene in their picture. Certainly you would see the point of that, how many would know who you are CCP Xhagen if we used your picture and real name together? I would imagine there would be greater recognition of who you are based on your nome de guerrer and picture together.
But them comes your most horrifying fallacy of all. That police protection amounts to an effective cure all for whatever problems may arise from the needless exposure of a CSM's real name. A mentally unstable person takes no heed of court orders or admonishments from the local authorities. A mentally disturbed person does not simply respond to the same stimulus a rational person does. After all how many times did the player who owned the character "Preencleve Grothesmore" make himself a nuisance not only in real life, but was able to circumvent CCP by continuously getting new accounts in this very game?
Xhagen what could is a shield made of paper? That's what your offering your CSM now. |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 03:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
Also I was the one who raised this issue. Its my arguments you should be addressing first before you deal with Snow Axe. |
Lemon Sorbet
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 04:13:00 -
[88] - Quote
Welp Scooter, there went your chances at a bright CSM future.
First of all, obvious campaign setup is obvious. And if I can spot it, others can spot it too, and CCP can certainly spot it. They're not political ignoramuses (ignoramusi?) and while blatantly coming at them with a non-issue trying to make it an issue in order to prove to the players that you are "the man that will hold everyone accountable" (or worse, demanding anonymity simply because you want to run but have an intense paranoia about nutter EVE players finding you in a dark alley) they're going to see right through it.
Second of all, CCP Xhagen is the man you'd need to work with all year long if elected. Challenging him "intellectually" (HA) and flipping around words like "fallacy" while simultaneously indulging in a series of logical fallacies to support your drive for anonymity is sending a pretty strong message about your competence, ability to think critically, and most importantly, the self-discipline not to react with righteous indignity about anything you disagree with.
CCP has no obligation to respect you once you get elected, just because you'd be a CSM member. Plenty of other spergs have made the council before and been more or less useless during their term not because they didn't know the game or didn't represent the people, but because they completely lacked any kind of diplomatic tact or were simply an awful person to be around and hang out with, and thus were not taken seriously. Nothing in the white paper says CCP have to listen and respond to dicks.
You're not only proving to CCP you lack a level head, you're proving to the players you're about to ask to vote for you that you lack a level head, so for the sake of your would-be political future I suggest you either learn this kinda stuff fast, or simply wait another year and observe before jumping into this headfirst with age-old cheap political ploys and rants about issues that are out of touch with what the player base wants you to be concerned with these days. |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 04:18:00 -
[89] - Quote
Personal attacks do not suffice for logic. Also CCP Xhagen is an adult who speak their own arguments, but thanks for playing. What's more is your an alt for someone very cowardly. If your a CSM member then the CSM is frightfully broken and needs wiser people in the position of guidance.
If its resorted to "Lemon Sorbet" making personal attacks then I think it proves there is no argument. Each CSM member that's trotted out here to argue with me has brought nothing new. They have only rehashed arguments from my original post that I pointed out as flawed. Since then no CCP or CSM member has counter the first arguments raised by my first post. This leads me to believe there has been a confederacy of dunces running the show. Come on show me some intellect, show me logic, prove your argument beyond something I originaly pointed out. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1696
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 04:27:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:
When talking about human nature (which is not the real issue, as you mistakenly conclude), the street goes both ways. Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences. And this has nothing to do with 'vigilante justice' or 'just world fallacy' - most countries have laws that protect the citizens and police forces that can be contacted if a person believes that those same laws have been broken.
I would actually like to address this as any criminal actions taken would require to CCP to act within both Iceland's and England's privacy laws as well as the country involved's law enforcement integrating that to within their own countries laws. Added on to that the fact that some countries do not have information sharing treaties with Iceland and England.
So it comes down to the defense of people via this two way street is more likely to take forever to legally achieve or not be achievable at all, either leaving the police no suspect as to the crime or worse yet having the entire matter thrown out of court by the police department not following lawful procedures.
I will spell the last bit out easier, A CSM member is attacked, the CSM member tells the police of threatening mails that have occurred within EvE, CCP responds rapidly to the police request for a real name and address. CCP obliges. An arrest is made but anything found after the initial identification is considered poison fruit as it was not done using proper inter-jurisdictional treaties. The case is thrown out of court and the offender then gets to extradite members of CCP for breaches of the privacy act, as there is no urgency.
Or option B the offender dies a happy death of old age waiting for inter-jurisdictional paper work to be done covering 2 (if it occurs in England) or 3+ governments for any where else in the world. Or in the case of Non-treatied countries the police either getting no help from CCP or the help being unlawful.
Oh and of course this relies on the fact that your countries police actually doing anything. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
|
|
Lemon Sorbet
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 04:50:00 -
[91] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote: Personal attacks do not suffice for logic. Also CCP Xhagen is an adult who speak their own arguments, but thanks for playing. What's more is your an alt for someone very cowardly. If your a CSM member then the CSM is frightfully broken and needs wiser people in the position of guidance.
If its resorted to "Lemon Sorbet" making personal attacks then I think it proves there is no argument. Each CSM member that's trotted out here to argue with me has brought nothing new. They have only rehashed arguments from my original post that I pointed out as flawed. Since then no CCP or CSM member has counter the first arguments raised by my first post. This leads me to believe there has been a confederacy of dunces running the show. Come on show me some intellect, show me logic, prove your argument beyond something I originaly pointed out.
Again, If you're going to try to sound super-smart and set yourself up as the hero here to save the players from these "dunces" running the show, start by learning about a few logical fallacies before you start tossing around the word "logic", or "fallacy".
I'll give you one for free. Ad Hominem attacks are a type of fallacy where you try to make your point by tearing someone else down using an irrelevant piece of information. In this case, you're actually making a personal attack on myself, and questioning my right to comment by the fact that I'm posting with an alt. It's not only a red herring, its a sign you have no idea how to wield the ideas you're trying to wage war with.
The difference between an Ad Hominem attack and what you just incorrectly labeled as a personal attack is that my criticism is extremely relevant in comparison. Like I said, its quite obvious to the intelligent reader that your intentional use of hyperbole such as "confederacy of dunces" and "the CSM is frightfully broken" is nothing more than ago old politicking. Want to prove me wrong? Simply make it known that all of this has nothing to do with you wanting to run for CSM, by making it known that you WONT be running for CSM.*
If you really expect the CSM members to waste more time on this thread, set an example for them (you can refer back to this later in your campaign if you want to look good!) by being the better man and addressing the concerns I raised first, without dodging, and without the hilarious irony of hiding behind logical fallacies only to accuse others of logical fallacies.
*Yeah, I didn't think you would. |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 04:57:00 -
[92] - Quote
I have a better proposal: Why not allow candidates for the CSM to run on the "Anonymous Ticket" and those supporting the status quo run on their real names. If the anonymous ones win there is your answer, there is the gauntlet thrown down who will answer for it? |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1036
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 05:20:00 -
[93] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:CCP Xhagen wrote:
When talking about human nature (which is not the real issue, as you mistakenly conclude), the street goes both ways. Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences. And this has nothing to do with 'vigilante justice' or 'just world fallacy' - most countries have laws that protect the citizens and police forces that can be contacted if a person believes that those same laws have been broken.
I would actually like to address this as any criminal actions taken would require to CCP to act within both Iceland's and England's privacy laws as well as the country involved's law enforcement integrating that to within their own countries laws. Added on to that the fact that some countries do not have information sharing treaties with Iceland and England. So it comes down to the defense of people via this two way street is more likely to take forever to legally achieve or not be achievable at all, either leaving the police no suspect as to the crime or worse yet having the entire matter thrown out of court by the police department not following lawful procedures. I will spell the last bit out easier, A CSM member is attacked, the CSM member tells the police of threatening mails that have occurred within EvE, CCP responds rapidly to the police request for a real name and address. CCP obliges. An arrest is made but anything found after the initial identification is considered poison fruit as it was not done using proper inter-jurisdictional treaties. The case is thrown out of court and the offender then gets to extradite members of CCP for breaches of the privacy act, as there is no urgency. Or option B the offender dies a happy death of old age waiting for inter-jurisdictional paper work to be done covering 2 (if it occurs in England) or 3+ governments for any where else in the world. Or in the case of Non-treatied countries the police either getting no help from CCP or the help being unlawful. Oh and of course this relies on the fact that your countries police actually doing anything.
See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution.
Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul, since you probably couldn't pay anyone enough money to fly CCP's designed drones. Of course Pakistan should probably hire CCP to help build drone defenses though. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3919
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 05:46:00 -
[94] - Quote
rodyas wrote: See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution.
Who needs modular POSes when we could invest those dollars into providing physical protection for CSM members? This drone thing sounds totally awesome, and would work way better than a paper shield or a phone call to the police after harm has been done. But why stop there? Serious investments need to be justified, so we could use them as the new discipline against the CSM as well. Being held responsible as a human being for one's actions through public transparency pales in comparison to TOTALHELLDEATH as a deterrent against CSM misconduct. In this manner CCP's new drone army would add a much-needed dose of risk/reward balancing to the CSM.
rodyas wrote: Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul
This man knows how to negotiate. o7o7
Have you ever considered running for office, Rodyas? You catch on quick. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1036
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 05:56:00 -
[95] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:rodyas wrote: See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution. Who needs modular POSes when we could invest those dollars into providing physical protection for CSM members? This drone thing sounds totally awesome, and would work way better than a paper shield or a phone call to the police after harm has been done. But why stop there? Serious investments need to be justified, so we could use them as the new discipline against the CSM as well. Being held responsible as a human being for one's actions through public transparency pales in comparison to TOTALHELLDEATH as a deterrent against CSM misconduct. In this manner CCP's new drone army would add a much-needed dose of risk/reward balancing to the CSM. rodyas wrote: Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul This man knows how to negotiate. o7o7 Have you ever considered running for office, Rodyas? You catch on quick.
Alright, I finally have hope on my side.
The punishment of CSM is a tasty thought. Perhaps CCP can also remove protection of creating new laws and not be able to then prosecute someone from it. Pretty sure we all know a certain ex-CSM person, whose stash of alcohol should be drone missiled.
Of course is would only be a slight delay on funding for modular POSs as well. Think of all the copyrights, CCP would own with their new drone police squad. They say modular POSs were not a good business idea. But now they could be a great one! I strongly think they should seriously consider building one of their famed prototypes of a workable policing drone program. Hopefully in a few months they can release in a dev blog, or while drunk at a fanfest information about that prototype or give a demonstration.
As for running for office. I usually post alongside Frying Doom, I think its carved in stone, what that means. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 06:22:00 -
[96] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:rodyas wrote: See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution. Who needs modular POSes when we could invest those dollars into providing physical protection for CSM members? This drone thing sounds totally awesome, and would work way better than a paper shield or a phone call to the police after harm has been done. But why stop there? Serious investments need to be justified, so we could use them as the new discipline against the CSM as well. Being held responsible as a human being for one's actions through public transparency pales in comparison to TOTALHELLDEATH as a deterrent against CSM misconduct. In this manner CCP's new drone army would add a much-needed dose of risk/reward balancing to the CSM. rodyas wrote: Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul This man knows how to negotiate. o7o7 Have you ever considered running for office, Rodyas? You catch on quick.
So in the face of logic you resort to babbling? I am so glad you got elected to the CSM.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1036
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 06:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:rodyas wrote: See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution. Who needs modular POSes when we could invest those dollars into providing physical protection for CSM members? This drone thing sounds totally awesome, and would work way better than a paper shield or a phone call to the police after harm has been done. But why stop there? Serious investments need to be justified, so we could use them as the new discipline against the CSM as well. Being held responsible as a human being for one's actions through public transparency pales in comparison to TOTALHELLDEATH as a deterrent against CSM misconduct. In this manner CCP's new drone army would add a much-needed dose of risk/reward balancing to the CSM. rodyas wrote: Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul This man knows how to negotiate. o7o7 Have you ever considered running for office, Rodyas? You catch on quick. So in the face of logic you resort to babbling? I am so glad you got elected to the CSM.
Who needs drones when you have this guy. Perhaps if CCP would add 5% of Scooter McCabe per lvl to my Domi, I would fly more missions once again. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 06:38:00 -
[98] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:rodyas wrote: See that is why CCP needs to develop their own drone program. Cuts right through all the red tape. They even have legal justification as well. The events happened on their soil. No other country will help them out. So its time for drone Retribution. Who needs modular POSes when we could invest those dollars into providing physical protection for CSM members? This drone thing sounds totally awesome, and would work way better than a paper shield or a phone call to the police after harm has been done. But why stop there? Serious investments need to be justified, so we could use them as the new discipline against the CSM as well. Being held responsible as a human being for one's actions through public transparency pales in comparison to TOTALHELLDEATH as a deterrent against CSM misconduct. In this manner CCP's new drone army would add a much-needed dose of risk/reward balancing to the CSM. rodyas wrote: Of course this will require a drone UI and use overhaul This man knows how to negotiate. o7o7 Have you ever considered running for office, Rodyas? You catch on quick. So in the face of logic you resort to babbling? I am so glad you got elected to the CSM. Who needs drones when you have this guy. Perhaps if CCP would add 5% of Scooter McCabe per lvl to my Domi, I would fly more missions once again.
Wow you can handle 5%? And what does that have to do with anything at all?
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1036
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 06:45:00 -
[99] - Quote
Well it would be 20% total. If anything at all, I should have 25% Scooter, like most players would, but sadly I would always be lacking. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3049
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 09:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
What if someone was to turn down all travel and attends summits via the monitors like some do now? No plane tickets means no need to reveal your RL name.
Is that still not an option??
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
Singular Snowflake
New Order Logistics CODE.
100
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 11:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Singular Snowflake wrote: CCP Xhagen, can you address these points? In what way is it acceptable to use the CMS reps real names as a threat against them, if they do not "behave" correctly? I'm fairly certain he's not "threatening" the CSM here but rather pointing out that having your real name on the line should act as a strong deterrent to gross misconduct. Singular Snowflake wrote: There are many different kinds of playstyles in this game. For a simple example, many carebear miners feel that ganking and supporting ganking is unacceptable behavior. Do we want those people to use this "accountability" of real names against a CMS member in real life? I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy?
We have had several creepy stalkers doing nasty stuff in real life to other players over the years. Is your argument that anything very serious is yet to happen? We should wait for the Prencleeves of the world to get their act together and really do something major?
Fixing the situation would require almost no change whatsoever from CCP. They do not even have to promise the total anonymity. Just use the current system, stop using real names and insert a line on CSM NDA about not disclosing the real names of other CSM members if they happen to know them. Edit: This way there is no legal problems as things remain almost as they are now, just safer for the representatives. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3260
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 16:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strongest example we have of harassment in recent history is that of Alex G. following the incident at FF, but this was in response to misconduct that had nothing to do with whether The Mittani likes to mine or pew. It is highly unlikely that the media would waste their time and money to call out a CSM member for taking a stance on an in-game political issue....but actions such as harassment, NDA breach, or other things that a -person- does, not a character, carry RL consequences of their own, and its kind of ridiculous that we have built a game around understanding the ramifications of one's actions and yet people are seriously advocating shielding the CSM from risk at the same time.
Just a correction here Hans. People on the CSM *have* been stalked/harassed because their real names were made public. Go google "Prencleeve Grothsmore" for more info. You also might talk to CCP Sreegs, who had someone call his place of employment and try to get him fired for being an internet spaceship bully.
It has happened, it will probably happen again. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3051
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 22:14:00 -
[103] - Quote
Seems more damage is done by releasing a persons real name than there is to keep them in check. A double edged sword that causes more harm than good.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1037
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 23:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
Two step wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I mean has this actually ever happened?? CSM members being tracked down and harassed IRL because of a disagreement in policy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strongest example we have of harassment in recent history is that of Alex G. following the incident at FF, but this was in response to misconduct that had nothing to do with whether The Mittani likes to mine or pew. It is highly unlikely that the media would waste their time and money to call out a CSM member for taking a stance on an in-game political issue....but actions such as harassment, NDA breach, or other things that a -person- does, not a character, carry RL consequences of their own, and its kind of ridiculous that we have built a game around understanding the ramifications of one's actions and yet people are seriously advocating shielding the CSM from risk at the same time.
Just a correction here Hans. People on the CSM *have* been stalked/harassed because their real names were made public. Go google "Prencleeve Grothsmore" for more info. You also might talk to CCP Sreegs, who had someone call his place of employment and try to get him fired for being an internet spaceship bully. It has happened, it will probably happen again.
"Seems more damage is done by releasing a persons real name than there is to keep them in check. A double edged sword that causes more harm than good."
Well I do see one valid complaint perhaps.
CCP has stated a lot of their members don't feel comfortable enough to post on this forum, since us players can be pretty mean and cruel and trolly.
Yet they set up the elections, give out CSM candidates names, then throw them into all the players that are too mean and cruel for them to handle. Though some CCP still post here even with them getting trolled, same with some CSM still post even with threat of trolling.
But the complaint from Scooter is that some players won't run for CSM because of it. Perhaps if we had the numbers and created a ratio it would be 1:1 for the amount of CCP people who don't post on this forum because of the fear of trolling and cruelness and players that won't run for CSM.
Also Hans liked the idea of fairness, that some people do take the heat, so he wanted to take the heat. So all is fair and shared. But like I said, some people choose not to take the heat or stay away from it. So its not always fair to expect CSM or others to take the heat. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:45:00 -
[105] - Quote
Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2207
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 20:20:00 -
[106] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory.
All I have to do to receive death threats is play the game. I'm not sure why people are so concerned about death threats because they never come true. Do you seriously think that some angry, fat computer gamer is going to fly halfway around the world to kill you? That would require too much effort. I'll probably-ábe banned for this |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2207
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 20:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them?
If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them.
I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard. I'll probably-ábe banned for this |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2207
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 21:01:00 -
[108] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Y'know, I'm with Malcanis here. I'd just as soon remain anonymous, but Frying Doom's tasteless predictions are pretty damn unlikely, and I can deal with some crankpot stalkerish crap on its own. Frankly, the exposure would probably do me some good overall - I share a name with a famous harvard professor and a disgraced college athlete, so the bump in google search results ranking could be a benefit.
I share the name of a black guy that wanted to be a white guy & touched little kiddies. I'm strangely ok with this. I'll probably-ábe banned for this |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1702
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 22:14:00 -
[109] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them. I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard. Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1037
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 06:55:00 -
[110] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them. I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard. Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address.
Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes?
Also any tax evasion advice?
(Also any job openings?)
This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you.
Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
|
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
729
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 07:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Thank you all for a lively discussion on this topic. While I appreciate that this is being discussed, CCP's stance on the matter hasn't changed.
Why you ask? Because the privacy matter is the strongest factor - characters are not running for the CSM, real people are where your character name gives you the EVE reputation (and you can run with whatever character you wish). IF CCP would not publish the RL names and country of residence, it would be implicitly stated that we would keep them a secret.
That we cannot promise.
In fact we would be opening up for potential liability - even though we would go the route of not actually confirming that we would keep that information secret, we would still be implicitly promising something we cannot keep as everyone would be interpret it that way. I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind).
That is why it was decided to go the much cleaner way of stating that we will disclose this information and leaving the participation in the CSM up to the person who wants to run - they can then make an informed decision. That also allows us to use the CSM, and pictures and names of those members, for PR purposes. Additionally RL laws and protection applies to the people on the CSM and CCP is not making any promises that it cannot keep.
I don't see how this argument does not also apply to, say, alliance tournament commentators or the EVE players you interview on the FF stream. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1702
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 08:13:00 -
[112] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them. I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard. Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address. Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes? Also any tax evasion advice? (Also any job openings?) This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you. I do not hire children, they cost to much in Australia.
As to tax evasion, again this is Australia and with a business all you ever need to do is show a loss and there is no tax.
But nope no job openings sorry Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1037
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 08:57:00 -
[113] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:rodyas wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them. I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard. Same but the one that stands out for me is I have a business, so that business is registered, so you can see the details on the internet. Subsequently the business address is also listed. From there it is not hard to find my home address. Well can you at least tell us how many kids you hire to produce the burgers/shoes? Also any tax evasion advice? (Also any job openings?) This is important to help me decide whether to vote for you. I do not hire children, they cost to much in Australia. As to tax evasion, again this is Australia and with a business all you ever need to do is show a loss and there is no tax. But nope no job openings sorry
Now those darn Aborigines took meh jerb.
On a serious note I see why you are worried. I would so hit australia for revenge on friday then scuba in the reef on saterday. Back on sunday to re apply for unemployment benefits now sadly.
Luckily I live in a place, where I can say anything I want to, and no one would come. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 17:24:00 -
[114] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Okay running with the argument that people with unique last names bear a higher burden of exposure to those with more common names. There is an imbalance here that ought to be addressed. Now what if CCP published the first name and first letter of the last name to answer this problem. You know its a real person representing you, you just look up all their info and know more than you should about them? If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet. I know people that put phone numbers & home addresses on facebook, I know people that basically tell the world every tiny little detail about themselves, but these same people are always worried about what some random person could dig up on them. I've been using the internet for 17 years now & have managed to make myself extremely difficult to find any information on. It's not hard.
Its called the White Pages and if you have a really unique last that you share with about 10 living people because they just happen to be your family I don't care what steps you take. CCP posts the real name and country of origin of the player and that's all someone needs. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1271
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 22:11:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If people are worried about someone Googling information about them then they should seriously consider not posting pretty much everything about themselves on the internet.
Some things are just there, I can't get them off, I went to prison, i was incarcerated on multiple occasions for everything from theft to attempted murder. I'm not a convicted felon but I've been charged with some 30 odd felonies in my life, some of them are pretty ugly. I've had to sit for months on a 1 million dollar bond waiting for the grand jury indictment hearing to get the charges reduced because thats just the way the court system works.
What about playing a video game gives you or anybody else that I don't want the right to have that information? I served my time, its been 10 years since I've been even remotely in trouble but just because I play a game and want to make that game better I should have people that will dig through every wrong thing I've ever done, and then attempt to use that in some way against me?
We had several people connecting on facebook in our small alliance, when things went bad for different members at different times, they used the information they gained off facebook to attempt to take a dump on one of our members, and thats from a small pool of only 1800 people. What happens when its 450,000?
What happens when you, the internet infantile that spends your days digging and posting shows up somewhere that I, the convict, can get hold of you and make you pay for all your ninny internet crap? Want to guess?
These are just a few reasons that knowing somebodies RL name for a video game purpose is beyond ********. It invites disaster on multiple levels for no apparent gain at all.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1037
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 22:54:00 -
[116] - Quote
I for one will definitely be voting for at least one PL member for CSM apparently. Since I plan on having both my legs work.
Are there any other alliances that should have at least one other member as well, if we know what is best for us. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
958
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 23:25:00 -
[117] - Quote
I am far more interested in what CSM members achieve, than in whatever their real names are.
Last time, I voted for Seleene, and I have no idea nor interest in what his/her real name is. This is not a signature. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1037
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 23:32:00 -
[118] - Quote
^ Its John C. Reilly Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3029
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 00:34:00 -
[119] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Malcanis wrote:I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget.
Or you are being a woman or a suicide-risk carebear or GǪ
But the crux of the matter is that between the legal risk to CCP and the personal accountability and personal risk to the identified CSM candidate, CCP prefers to cover their arses rather than yours.
Issler had a stalker, but what are the chances that she would have ended up with a stalker regardless of CCP revealing real names up front? How many women play this game and have to put up with stackers despite never having communicated their personal details outside their social circles? I would be interested to know.
There are real world laws to protect people against real world interference such as stalking, nuisance calls, death threats, and so forth.
If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
238
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 13:47:00 -
[120] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate?
There's a big difference between being prepared to have your real identity discovered and making it widely available and authoritatively linked to your EVE personality.
Once upon a time my main reason for not running for CSM was that difference (nowadays everyone knows it anyway and I have no time). But -- I still know of few other high profile EVE FCs/leaders from other major alliance who have not ran either due to this pointless part of the process.
It seems utterly stupid to publish the RL names of CSM candidates and it's about time stupid was hammered out of the process. |
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
426
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 14:07:00 -
[121] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Seleene wrote:Malcanis wrote:I can't say that I'm all that happy about having my RL name published but I can't help feeling that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. I'm pretty sure you won't need to hire body guards unless you start stealing titans or giving speeches at the summit advocating for more money in CCP's Incarna Fashion budget. Or you are being a woman or a suicide-risk carebear or GǪ But the crux of the matter is that between the legal risk to CCP and the personal accountability and personal risk to the identified CSM candidate, CCP prefers to cover their arses rather than yours. Issler had a stalker, but what are the chances that she would have ended up with a stalker regardless of CCP revealing real names up front? How many women play this game and have to put up with stackers despite never having communicated their personal details outside their social circles? I would be interested to know. There are real world laws to protect people against real world interference such as stalking, nuisance calls, death threats, and so forth.If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate? Yet, those who seek, for example, public office and gain wide exposure to the dregs of society sometimes need extra protection in the form of hired security. And their associated government organizations also provide additional personal security. Real world laws do not go all that far towards truly protecting individuals against harassment from those intent on causing trouble.
In the case of the CSM, you have individuals relinquishing their private identities to a highly spirited gaming community based upon the worst morals and ethics available to mankind -- with no additional protections offered up by CCP.
IRL, most people who have great wealth, power or some other attractive / charismatic quality seek out privacy with great vigor due to the shitheads intent on ******* with them. +++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark GÇ£SeleeneGÇ¥ Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
157
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 16:16:00 -
[122] - Quote
I am truly in awe of the CSM members who risk life and limb by publishing their REAL names!
If CCP ever were to abolish the RL name requirement, then the alternative would be to publish a CCP-verified list of every alt on every account ever owned by the person running.
But seriously, abolish the CSM already.
|
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 19:55:00 -
[123] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 20:00:00 -
[124] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:I'm glad you mentioned the resume thing: I actually peeked back at the candidacy threads of all y'all that were elected. A whopping 4 of 14 of you made any reference at all to your RL selves, and only yourself and Seleene went into any detail (Two Step just briefly mentioned his name and occupation, and Meissa just made a not-detailed mention of past jobs he's had as a developer). Even among those of you who released RL information, only Seleene's was any significant part of what they ran on (understandable given he was a former CCP dev). I don't think this whole "verifying RL credentials" thing is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be. This, because Trebor is throwing up a strawman that few CSM have used as a basis for their candidacy.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6563
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 20:06:00 -
[125] - Quote
Individual CSM members spend an entire hour out of the entire year on camera on a live stream, and that's the CSM panel at Fanfest. Unlike them, however, AT commentators, Fanfest alliance panel presenters, and other player volunteers who end up on CCP streams are not obligated to divulge their RL names to anyone but CCP. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:28:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Not only does it deter people who are worried about their RL names being linked to their online behavior but it also deters people who would use that information to harass CSM candidates and members - both have potential RL consequences. I don't really understand the last half of that sentence. How does Two Step's real-life name being published deter anyone from harassing him? You mention law enforcement ... and while it may be true in Iceland that law enforcement have the time to look into these things ... law enforcement in most large countries do not have the time or resources to look deeply into cases of harassment ... especially when the harasser could very well be living in another jurisdiction. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1703
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:41:00 -
[127] - Quote
Just a quick question, is there a url were it lists all of the CCP staffs real names and their countries they live in? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
|
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:07:00 -
[128] - Quote
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v If I was on the CSM, I would expect and request that you just call me Poe. I would need no familiarity with the bunch of you.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1041
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:23:00 -
[129] - Quote
Shadoo wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:If you, dear reader, want to be on CSM and are not prepared to have your real identity discovered, perhaps you could arrange to field a sock puppet candidate? There's a big difference between being prepared to have your real identity discovered and making it widely available and authoritatively linked to your EVE personality. Once upon a time my main reason for not running for CSM was that difference (nowadays everyone knows it anyway and I have no time). But -- I still know of few other high profile EVE FCs/leaders from other major alliance who have not ran either due to this pointless part of the process. It seems utterly stupid to publish the RL names of CSM candidates and it's about time stupid was hammered out of the process.
Well we have hints of other major alliances being able to field candidates this next race, whether this rule is changed or not. It just might be a smaller issue that not everyone can run. Like you not having the time, or others over the posting RL names.
But with the two PL CSM leaving this year, and with reading this post. The only major issue, is if PL had no CSM candidate run because of this issue. If there is no PL candidate running, that might cause a scandal or force the issue, but if there is a good PL person who can still run with the rule intact it shouldn't be too huge of a problem.
Also Poetic we already ruled earlier in the thread, that trolls shouldn't be running for CSM. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:51:00 -
[130] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Also Poetic we already ruled earlier in the thread, that trolls shouldn't be running for CSM. Right. Because Hans and Trebor don't like it. What the CSM needs are more sycophants.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1041
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:31:00 -
[131] - Quote
^ Well you and frying doom could form a platform and if its decent maybe I will support ya guys. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 04:24:00 -
[132] - Quote
I still have yet to get an answer on how CCP can protect your billing information but finds it impossible to keep your name from floating out there like drift wood coming in on the tide. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1042
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 04:42:00 -
[133] - Quote
Because CCP can control the billing information or who has access to it. But they cannot control you or another player. You can always blab your name out, then someone spills it or something.
CCP can lock credit info in a vault, but they can't lock you up in one.
I still just think its a personal choice right now. If there are enough candidates who feel this is not an issue, it might not be one. But if enough candidates don't run over this issue it could be one. Just like CCP, they make the personal choice to still post on the forums even after trolls. If they stopped posting cause of trolls, I am sure more action would commence.
Just go around asking people scooter if they will still run over this or not, and give us the tally. So we can see how bad the problem is.
* We demand graphs. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2315
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 07:59:00 -
[134] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.
I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me.
As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures.
Issler |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 08:06:00 -
[135] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me. As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures. Issler It's still a minority and not required. I believe someone else stated they looked into the candidacy posts of the 14 elected CSM and found only four using real-life experience as part of their platform.
The point is that real-life qualifications are not necessary. And it's certainly not something Xhagen would be concerned about, since he has no control (or does he *tinfoil*) over the elections.
Oh, and software patents are bad. They do not encourage innovation, they restrict it.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2315
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 08:56:00 -
[136] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. I've made my RL qualifications pretty clear. I think I've even provided links to my current resume and even my patents in the 3D game space. I know for a fact if someone googled my RL name they would learn a heck of a lot about me. As for the others, I think I've seen similar disclosures. Issler It's still a minority and not required. I believe someone else stated they looked into the candidacy posts of the 14 elected CSM and found only four using real-life experience as part of their platform. The point is that real-life qualifications are not necessary. And it's certainly not something Xhagen would be concerned about, since he has no control (or does he *tinfoil*) over the elections. Oh, and software patents are bad. They do not encourage innovation, they restrict it.
So not a fan of patents but I mention them just to prove I can claim some legitimacy in the space. I've only filed patents on my inventions when forced to by my current evil overlords. In most case I just did what I could to make money directly with my ideas. I believe patents are indefensible against anyone with deep enough pockets and have spent more of my time providing "prior art" from my own work to defeat the patent trolls than filing new patents.
I added to my prior post but my point is currently Eve seems to be evolving in two ways. One is the core game. To be a good CSM for this all you need to be is passionate about Eve, maybe have some relevant history in Eve to make you able to provide quality feedback to CCP. For someone to decide whether to vote for you, your Eve persona is all anyone needs.
However, the other part of Eve's future is the tech to let the community extend the game. To select a CSM that can speak to that, you HAVE to know who they are in RL. You mentioned in previous posts about the lack of information about candidates in some cases in terms of the RL qualifications.
Do you want some unknown person with no experience or relevant qualifications providing feedback to CCP about the technology that those third parities will either be blessed with or burdened by to make Eve better? I hope not.
So maybe some hybrid model is in order. You want to run on a straight "Eve" platform then no RL required, but the minute you start talking about how you want CCP to make the "tech" better, you'd better link some resumes and current references. Because some candidate might "love" some tech and talk about tessellation or APIs that will make Eve "awesome" but if they aren't speaking from a place of real experience they will NOT do right by the players.
Tech is RL and if a candidate want to run on their "tech" ideas to make Eve better, then I want to see their RL to know if they have any idea what they are talking about.
Issler
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1042
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 09:18:00 -
[137] - Quote
I personally think CCP should add more computers to their game computer. Also CCP should adopt Steve Jobs binary, where all the 0s and 1s come in different colors, to help jazz up the whole tech stuff. Also chords should be attached and game turned on with all the drivers updated.
CSM 8 vote now. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1042
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 09:26:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP should also develop some kind of pipe like network that connects all their computers, and allow data and other game type tech things to be sent to other computers, even though they are different rooms. Also they should upgrade to walkie talkies, that way they can still communicate even though, not in same room as well. Plus add finger print identification to their trash cans, so bums can't throw their trash away there so easily.
I read a tech magazine cover once, and used a TI-85 calculator in algrebra, eve-mail me for more tips. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1693
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 11:10:00 -
[139] - Quote
rodyas wrote:CCP should also develop some kind of pipe like network that connects all their computers, and allow data and other game type tech things to be sent to other computers, even though they are different rooms. Also they should upgrade to walkie talkies, that way they can still communicate even though, not in same room as well. Plus add finger print identification to their trash cans, so bums can't throw their trash away there so easily.
I read a tech magazine cover once, and used a TI-85 calculator in algrebra, eve-mail me for more tips. Part of me is really hoping that you're running for CSM8.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1693
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:38:00 -
[140] - Quote
For those interested, there are also some good comments on the issue at the following link:
http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/02/the-csm-it-aint-for-superheroes.html Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3279
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:57:00 -
[141] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not.
To be fair, while I didn't mention it as much *this time*, I did bring it up when I was running for CSM6.
Having RL experience in programming/design can be very helpful for a CSM rep. It helps you to understand the scope of some changes, and to see why doing something like "fix corp roles" is actually a pretty damn hard problem. It certainly isn't required, though having at least one or two programmers on the CSM helps things, especially when we are talking about the API/CREST. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
110
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 23:48:00 -
[142] - Quote
Two step wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. To be fair, while I didn't mention it as much *this time*, I did bring it up when I was running for CSM6. Having RL experience in programming/design can be very helpful for a CSM rep. It helps you to understand the scope of some changes, and to see why doing something like "fix corp roles" is actually a pretty damn hard problem. It certainly isn't required, though having at least one or two programmers on the CSM helps things, especially when we are talking about the API/CREST.
If I have been informed correctly you wrote code for a text based MUD, EVE Online is certainly more complicated than a text based game. I mean you as a programmer and CCPs programmers are night and day. It would be like taking a kid who plays paintball and having him tell "war stories" to an actual soldier fresh from 3 tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its just not the same and down right misleading. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3923
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 02:02:00 -
[143] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote: If I have been informed correctly
You haven't. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1045
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 02:13:00 -
[144] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Two step wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. To be fair, while I didn't mention it as much *this time*, I did bring it up when I was running for CSM6. Having RL experience in programming/design can be very helpful for a CSM rep. It helps you to understand the scope of some changes, and to see why doing something like "fix corp roles" is actually a pretty damn hard problem. It certainly isn't required, though having at least one or two programmers on the CSM helps things, especially when we are talking about the API/CREST. If I have been informed correctly you wrote code for a text based MUD, EVE Online is certainly more complicated than a text based game. I mean you as a programmer and CCPs programmers are night and day. It would be like taking a kid who plays paintball and having him tell "war stories" to an actual soldier fresh from 3 tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its just not the same and down right misleading.
+1 to scooter, -1 to hans.
Spreadsheet based is way superior then text, and everyone knows it. Please leave hans. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1045
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 02:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Two step wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case. How many current CSM actually included their real-life qualifications when running? I'm pretty sure nobody knows what Noah does for a job. I'm pretty sure writing a video game 30 years ago, back when all the man-power required was one or two people, is not a qualification. And what does Xhagen care what a CSMer does in real-life? He has no control over who is voted in or not. To be fair, while I didn't mention it as much *this time*, I did bring it up when I was running for CSM6. Having RL experience in programming/design can be very helpful for a CSM rep. It helps you to understand the scope of some changes, and to see why doing something like "fix corp roles" is actually a pretty damn hard problem. It certainly isn't required, though having at least one or two programmers on the CSM helps things, especially when we are talking about the API/CREST.
I think I take it as need a job that shows responsibility or helps you to view larger concepts as well.
Makes me wonder what Darius's old job was, with how he feels responsible protecting us from CCP. The old lady who stared out the window with binoculars is my guess. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1045
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 02:19:00 -
[146] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:rodyas wrote:CCP should also develop some kind of pipe like network that connects all their computers, and allow data and other game type tech things to be sent to other computers, even though they are different rooms. Also they should upgrade to walkie talkies, that way they can still communicate even though, not in same room as well. Plus add finger print identification to their trash cans, so bums can't throw their trash away there so easily.
I read a tech magazine cover once, and used a TI-85 calculator in algrebra, eve-mail me for more tips. Part of me is really hoping that you're running for CSM8.
Thanks for the compliment. But sadly wouldn't have the time to run, plus too new to the game still. Only be fun listening to me stammer past stuff really.
Can't get cocked teased or tricked either, since most CSM have done more then me, and they already complain about the workload. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 08:03:00 -
[147] - Quote
I'm not letting this go off the front page till CCP changes its policy. If this was such a cut and dry issue it wouldn't have required most of CSM and CCP Xhagen coming in here to defend an unethical and unpractical policy. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1278
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 10:21:00 -
[148] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:I'm not letting this go off the front page till CCP changes its policy. If this was such a cut and dry issue it wouldn't have required most of CSM and CCP Xhagen coming in here to defend an unethical and unpractical policy. The worst part is not really giving a normal reason why.
Just kind of going "well its this way and we're not changing it".
What does somebodies real name have to do with what they do in game, isn't my alts name enough? What extra added purpose does somebodies real life name provide other than real life harassment?
Its actually already happened to a CSM so the precedent has been set, and yet no actual reason is provided by the dev other than "because". Well thanks for treating us like 5 year olds and telling us to go to our room 'because' but for the adults in the room could you throw out a normalized "why" that makes some kind of sense? |
Regat Kozovv
Alcothology
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 11:48:00 -
[149] - Quote
The only accountability needed at hand is to match the actions of a character in game with the policies and influence they are advocating. No disclosure of personal information is required to do this; only the test of ensuring that they "are who they say they are".
CCP Xhagen I suspect is falling victim to this logical fallacy. Since our scope of accountability only extends to actions taken in-game, then there's no reason why we would need any more information other than a verification that CSM member "X" is in fact character "Y" (not withstanding any character transfers/purchases).
Disclosing a real name not only reveals more private information than necessary, but in no way assists our ability to prove this test, as we, the players, lack any method to verify this ourselves. How do we prove that the individual disclosed owns the accounts in question? We cannot, only CCP can do this, as only they have the records to match names with billing.
So we are given half of the pieces required in order to perform our own "independent verification", if that was intended. It's an illusion of transparency, and nothing more.
It's a pretty strong principle to stand on for what amounts to little more than an advisory body. For all that's trumped about player "democracy", I'm reminded that the CSM, try as they may, have no powers to enforce decisions or requests made. They are representatives brought up to Iceland to carry arguments that CCP does not have the time or inclination to wade through the forums to find. In this last point, I do not fault them, but we need to recognize the limitations for what they are.
If, somehow, CSM members could demand design changes to the game, then I could certainly see where having a real name would facilitate me being able to check up on their history, since we're now discussing modifications to a selling product. The CSM might as well become a board of directors then, true stock holders of a sort, and the lines between in-game and out-of-game having virtually no separation.
But that hasn't happened, and never will happen. And so long as CCP remains a business, the CSM will always be little more than an in-person forum meet.
To demand true identities to be revealed and scrutinized when they provide no useful benefit not only makes unreasonable demands on privacy, but inflates this board for the theater it is. |
Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:16:00 -
[150] - Quote
I've noticed that I know the people I play with way better than the people that I know on Facebook. Being anonymous gives them the freedom to say what they really think. Contrast with Facebook, where it's all people talking out the side of their neck.
So somehow, tying a real ID to a virtual persona inhibits that personas willingness to speak freely. I, for one, like to be able to say what I really feel and value Eve as a place where I can do that. I'd hope that the members of the CSM feel free to speak their mind.
This is a complicated issue with far-reaching ramifications...for example, a search of the name Alexander Gianturco leads to many items on cyberbullying. How would that incident have unfolded if we only knew him as The Mittani? Is it a good thing that he's forever tied to his misspoken words at fanfest? You be the judge. |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1045
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:48:00 -
[151] - Quote
^ An incident that large, it would only be a matter of time, before The Mittani's name was found and released.
You would still end up with a situation with his name connected to cyber bullying. Whether he was allowed to stay anonymous in the CSM or not.
If anything anonymity would only help with smaller things. But if you did something large, your name could come out anyways.
A lot of players liked the Mittani as CSM chairman since he was large or would do big things. Which means, if they want that again this anonymous issue shouldn't matter too much, since most likely their name would come out anyhow.
Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3289
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:55:00 -
[152] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Two step wrote:To be fair, while I didn't mention it as much *this time*, I did bring it up when I was running for CSM6.
Having RL experience in programming/design can be very helpful for a CSM rep. It helps you to understand the scope of some changes, and to see why doing something like "fix corp roles" is actually a pretty damn hard problem. It certainly isn't required, though having at least one or two programmers on the CSM helps things, especially when we are talking about the API/CREST. If I have been informed correctly you wrote code for a text based MUD, EVE Online is certainly more complicated than a text based game. I mean you as a programmer and CCPs programmers are night and day. It would be like taking a kid who plays paintball and having him tell "war stories" to an actual soldier fresh from 3 tours in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its just not the same and down right misleading.
Uh, no, that is not what I did (or what I do). I have worked in the game industry, but that was 14 years ago. I currently write client/server software for a company that sells a development environment to mostly large banks and telecoms (I'm sure you can figure out the company with a tiny bit of googling). I am not saying my current field has much to do with EVE, but I am saying that having real, working programmers is helpful.
The point isn't that I can suggest specific implementation methods or something insane like that, but that I have an appreciation for how difficult technically something is. Your theory about how different CCP's programmers are from me is pretty wildly off the mark. Game programming certainly isn't like it used to be when Trebor did it, and it has changed a lot since I was in the industry, but programming is still programming (except for very specialized fields like 3D graphics).
For example, look at this job posting from CCP's site: http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=418 Note that no game programming experience is required (in fact, I am way overqualified for that specific job, since half of my programming is Flash UIs) CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
116
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 00:52:00 -
[153] - Quote
14 years is a long time in the world computer game development. Do you think it was more relevant that you had been playing EVE for awhile and speaking from your knowledge on that, or pulling from memory something you knew about gaming from 14 years ago?
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Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
243
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:24:00 -
[154] - Quote
I am really struggling to understand how your RL identity/work experience has anything to do with how suitable you are to represent your contingency in a sandbox video game MMO.
I'd rather have someone who knows about THE GAME represent me, than someone who has some sort of tech job, or is even a developer/producer of another video game. I don't really care how much you understand about development methodologies, network stack, client/server applications, python or whatever.
I couldn't give a flying...bird about how you think their internal development methodology should be run, how their network code could be made more efficient or how they can improve the client performance. If I thought your CV was impressive enough for CCP to listen to you on these, I'd question why you aren't applying to work for them.
I only care how much you know about THE GAME you are elected to represent the player base of. I care what you do in THE GAME and what your platform is that you want to advocate, listen and relay opinions on from the community that elects you to the developers.
I'm frankly a little concerned I see existing/wanting CSM members fail to acknowledge that there are probably very good candidates, perhaps better than they are, who are filtered out by this pointless, useless part of the process. And it makes me wonder if you are really concerned about "accountability" to the community more than you are about your chances to be (re)elected to represent the community you say you care about.
And no, there is no PL member I am aware of who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. But there is at least one "space enemy" of ours who I'd trust to be my ambassador to 0.0 nullsec warfare who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. And there have been countless others in the past, both friend and foe. Does this not concern you also? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2969
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:37:00 -
[155] - Quote
Two step wrote: The point isn't that I can suggest specific implementation methods or something insane like that, but that I have an appreciation for how difficult technically something is. Your theory about how different CCP's programmers are from me is pretty wildly off the mark. Game programming certainly isn't like it used to be when Trebor did it, and it has changed a lot since I was in the industry, but programming is still programming (except for very specialized fields like 3D graphics).
I think it depends what part of the gaming industry you're working in. I've found the gaming industry has different concerns than other industries do. At any rate: I fully endorse anonymity for CSM candidates, and no I can't run because it'd be a conflict of interest. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
62
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 07:15:00 -
[156] - Quote
Shadoo wrote: And no, there is no PL member I am aware of who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. But there is at least one "space enemy" of ours who I'd trust to be my ambassador to 0.0 nullsec warfare who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. And there have been countless others in the past, both friend and foe. Does this not concern you also?
You may want to ask Grath about it. But yes, that is besides the point.
As I see it, the (only) strong point in favor of revealing RL identities is the difficulty and implied legal obligation to keeping them subsequently secret. The strong points against are the (imho somewhat stretched) fear of RL harassment and (somewhat more valid) the professional consequences of associating oneself with a die-hard politics in a game. Let's say both arguments are valid.
Nowadays, most (of the very substantial) work of the CSM is actually done in between summits and the actual flight to Iceland is just a cherry on top - both summits this year weren't actually too productive when it comes to CSM scrutinizing the content for the next expansion (to put it mildly). This may change with the new way CCP does things, but still, wouldn't it be nicer that the candidates could actually choose to remain anonymous? And further possibly only those who chose not to would fly to summits, give public speeches on EVE meets etc. With todays tech everyone can fully participate in a summit from a remote location (ask Alek/Kelduun) so they wouldn't miss out too much.
Also, with CCP actually having a plan for the following expansions for the first time ever and more and more CCP/CSM interaction happening via video conferences, wouldn't it be a good idea to cut the number of summits to just once a year? Most of the standing CSMs aren't running again, mostly stating the huge time strain as the reason. This would somewhat alleviate it. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1694
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 07:21:00 -
[157] - Quote
Cass Lie wrote:As I see it, the (only) strong point in favor of revealing RL identities is the difficulty and implied legal obligation to keeping them subsequently secret. All CCP has to do is what they're doing now. They're already keeping the identities of 300K accounts private. If they continue doing what they're doing, with regards to securing the information in our accounts, then any names that "get out" won't be because of CCP malfeasance. It'll be because the player let his identity be known, let slip some information somewhere, etc.
I think Xhagen's legal argument is a bit of a red herring.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1048
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 07:35:00 -
[158] - Quote
Shadoo wrote: And no, there is no PL member I am aware of who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. But there is at least one "space enemy" of ours who I'd trust to be my ambassador to 0.0 nullsec warfare who would run if the RL disclosure wasn't in place. And there have been countless others in the past, both friend and foe. Does this not concern you also?
I think the only reason I feel bad is because they would be stuck with posting in assembly hall if they didn't start running for CSM. Or better they could take up blogging or write for the EVE media sites or ask to join a podcast, if you do like their 0.0 ideas.
I mean if they have good ideas and stuff like that, be a shame to waste them. There are other ways to stay anonymous and still post them. Or if those people have no self esteem, and probably no decent or proud RL credentials there is still assembly hall waiting for them.
As for Grath, I think he is unique as in he is more scarier the more you know about him. It might be healthier for us to not know his RL name and hopefully we don't hear anymore RL stories. Innocence lost is hard to reclaim. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1289
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 07:47:00 -
[159] - Quote
rodyas wrote:[quote=Shadoo] As for Grath, I think he is unique as in he is more scarier the more you know about him. It might be healthier for us to not know his RL name and hopefully we don't hear anymore RL stories. Innocence lost is hard to reclaim.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1048
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:03:00 -
[160] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I think Xhagen's legal argument is a bit of a red herring.
Probably is, Space lawyers are very expensive (or very cheap), and CCP is only known for hiring real economists.
I might try to do some research over unpaid interns with power, or consultants that sign NDAs and such, but no payments for their advice. I mean so much work they do, but no real recompense or pay, is a bit strange for my legal thinking. Just wondering how other people/companies handle it or do the same thing. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1048
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:09:00 -
[161] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:rodyas wrote:[quote=Shadoo] As for Grath, I think he is unique as in he is more scarier the more you know about him. It might be healthier for us to not know his RL name and hopefully we don't hear anymore RL stories. Innocence lost is hard to reclaim.
Well the story was entertaining though. So what was the false accusation? Conspiracy to kill Stan Lee, Found trying to poach that last giant panda. Or defrauding cancer victims that died during Katrina charities. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1048
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:45:00 -
[162] - Quote
Alright research done with. Found some cool guidelines I thought could stir up some good debate.
Internship Programs Under The Fair Labor Standards Act
The Test For Unpaid Interns There are some circumstances under which individuals who participate in GÇ£for-profitGÇ¥ private sector internships or training programs may do so without compensation. The Supreme Court has held that the term "suffer or permit to work" cannot be interpreted so as to make a person whose work serves only his or her own interest an employee of another who provides aid or instruction. This may apply to interns who receive training for their own educational benefit if the training meets certain criteria. The determination of whether an internship or training program meets this exclusion depends upon all of the facts and circumstances of each such program.
The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination:
1.The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2.The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3.The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4.The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5.The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6.The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.
If all of the factors listed above are met, an employment relationship does not exist under the FLSA, and the ActGÇÖs minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to the intern. This exclusion from the definition of employment is necessarily quite narrow because the FLSAGÇÖs definition of GÇ£employGÇ¥ is very broad. Some of the most commonly discussed factors for GÇ£for-profitGÇ¥ private sector internship programs are considered below.
Site info taken from, also has more discussion on points
As for some info on the paid consultant side, its mostly trolls CCP since, they are a company and likes revenues I imagine.
While companies have many legitimate reasons for hiring consultants instead of employees (or vice versa), you might not be aware of one reason organizations might avoid signing on IT consultants: the potential tax liability. ( Obvious troll)
In most industries, provisions exist to prevent this kind of catastrophe. So-called GÇ£safe harborGÇ¥ rules seek to insure that as long as your client engaged you as an independent in good faith (and not just to avoid employee status), then they cannot be held liable. ( With how nice CCP is and usually the CSM, I imagine they mostly rely on the good faith part, so nothing is illegal really)
(But why I bring it up. DISCLAIMER: It is american law, and not everyone is american, but I thought it had a stern warning to it anyhow.)
Congress in 1986 repealed the safe harbor provisions for providers of high-tech services (and only high-tech services). The IRS can punish offenders without warning, whether or not they were previously aware of their non-compliance. Thus, many companies would rather stick with employees to eliminate that risk. (It just seemed this is booby traped, why I bring it up.)
Site info was taken from, also gives pointers on how to tell if someone is an employee or not.
I usually found debates whether CSM should do more vs. them being unpaid interns a good one. I also hope that once what is expected of them, or their place in things is understood better, perhaps more safety measure can be taken as well. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2346
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:28:00 -
[163] - Quote
How is American legislation relevant to an Icelandic company in any way? Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1048
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:How is American legislation relevant to an Icelandic company in any way?
That is a trick question actually.
I just liked the points those articles brought up. Thought they were smart and to the point. If the legal smeagle is too much, go ahead and ignore and I could even delete much of that jargon anyhow.
Why its relevant to an icelandic company is kind of subtle. Usually the good ol' US really enjoys companies and like to give them tax breaks and corporate loop holes. So this is people who like companies the most trying to give them advice. Usually it seems, europe hates the good ol' hardworking just trying to help the normal folk out companies and mass corporations. Since Iceland is more european they probably SHOULD read european law, since they will be the hardest on their poor and innocent company.
Also another subtle thing, would since the nasty americans support companies and the benign europeans hate companies. CCP could learn why the americans support companies and try to argue with their fellow european countrymen some good points they learned and see where compromise is reachable.
All I am saying, is they picked the worse place to ignore the law at, hopefully they don't forget maps soon, otherwise another Frankenstein novel could be written soon. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
405
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:09:00 -
[165] - Quote
Why does the average EVE player need to know their real names? The only essential information is their platform, experiences as a player, and what skillsets they bring to the table. Follow me on twitter |
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
248
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:11:00 -
[166] - Quote
Cass Lie wrote: As I see it, the (only) strong point in favor of revealing RL identities is the difficulty and implied legal obligation to keeping them subsequently secret. The strong points against are the (imho somewhat stretched) fear of RL harassment and (somewhat more valid) the professional consequences of associating oneself with a die-hard politics in a game. Let's say both arguments are valid.
Once again, there's a BIG difference between making the RL identities very visible part of the process (as they are now), and the representatives accepting that as part of being in the CSM you are in a public position with everything that comes from it.
For example -- the AT Tournament Commentators did not run on a platform of their RL credentials. Yet, we all accepted our RL identities were out there after the tournament. We signed our NDAs, we faxed over our passports and we did all the legal things I suspect CSM is subject to.
One might argue that CSM members get more exposed to sensitive information, but I fail to see how the NDA you sign in private with CCP is any different from an NDA you sign when your name is on a public web site, unless of course the consequences talked about are less to do with the EVE public and more to do with letting the rest of the gaming industry know you are untrustworthy individual who's professional conduct is in question. In which case CCP should just come out and say this, as it's probably something I could get behind. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:23:00 -
[167] - Quote
Hi I'm Lallante.
I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am incredibly interested and invested in Eve.
I cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career.
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v Seleene, what you (and CCP) with the very limited perspective of proud IT-industry professionals don't get is that publicly identifying with something as high profile yet niche and nerdy as this is a career limiting move for people in politics, finance, law, economics and other high profile non-IT careers.
It is a clear if unhappy fact that for a large portion of the non-eve playing population (the vast majority), admitting membership of a political body in an MMO is akin to being a public advocate for furry rights, being the world's foremost buffy fan-fiction author or being a member of a fringe political party - a.k.a. disturbing evidence that you are "a bit weird" or "obsessive" or otherwise not normal.
Those people may be wrong (perhaps not?), in fact I wish they felt differently, but am I willing to throw my self on the bonfire pretending that this isn't so? Obviously not. Unfortunately, a lot of those people, being older and more traditional, occupy positions of power in high powered industries.
I have a friend from an early and infamous corp of mine in Eve. He was a few years younger than me and aiming for a similar profession. He was less circumspect about his eve gaming than I was, and it became easily googleable. In his FIRST interview for a summer placement (the precursor to a real job) in the industry he was aiming for, the entire interview was spent with the interviewer essentially attacking his MMO gaming habit. And this is just for playing. Imagine how they would react when they found out you ran for an election and ended up in a player representative political body. Obviously he didnt get the job (or indeed any placements that year), and eventually cleaned up his online presence and got into the industry the next year.
Before people give the same old tired **** about how "you can use eve to show when you've demonstrated leadership" etc. Get a clue. We aren't talking applying for a management position at McDonalds here. Any evidence that you are a risk to the organisation, or even give the interviewer or recruiter a funny feeling (which "being a bit weird" clearly constitutes) and your application goes in the circular filing tray.
In conclusion - the argument for privacy on the grounds of safety is compelling on its own. On top of that, for many of us, the need to keep our private life and interests seperate from our careers is even more so. If CCP relax this rule people like me might be persuaded to run. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:38:00 -
[168] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Thank you all for a lively discussion on this topic. While I appreciate that this is being discussed, CCP's stance on the matter hasn't changed.
Why you ask? Because the privacy matter is the strongest factor - characters are not running for the CSM, real people are where your character name gives you the EVE reputation (and you can run with whatever character you wish). IF CCP would not publish the RL names and country of residence, it would be implicitly stated that we would keep them a secret.
That we cannot promise.
In fact we would be opening up for potential liability - even though we would go the route of not actually confirming that we would keep that information secret, we would still be implicitly promising something we cannot keep as everyone would be interpret it that way. I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind).
That is why it was decided to go the much cleaner way of stating that we will disclose this information and leaving the participation in the CSM up to the person who wants to run - they can then make an informed decision. That also allows us to use the CSM, and pictures and names of those members, for PR purposes. Additionally RL laws and protection applies to the people on the CSM and CCP is not making any promises that it cannot keep.
As a lawyer I'm going to have to call BS on this claim I'm afraid Xhagen. I don't know who has given you legal advice but this is just wrong in so many ways.
You are presenting this as a dichotomy ("publish details" vs "must enforce confidentiality"), but it is a false one. There is no implication of a right to privacy just because you choose not to publicly publish the identities of CSM's identity - and to the extent you are worried it gets caught by more general "in confidence" laws just contract out of it. Every CSM already signs an NDA (which no doubt explicitly gives CCP the right to use that person's name). Just flip that clause ("CCP will not publish or otherwise deliberately publicise the indentity of the CSM member, however CCP shall not be liable for any loss in this regard. The CSM member shall have no expectation that their identity shall remain confidential"). Boom, no liability, or at least, no more that CCP currently has.
An "implicit" promise of this kind (which in my opinion is not even constituted) does not override an explicit contractual statement to the contrary.
The legal arguement is a subterfuge - you actually just want to publicise people's names as a form of control to prevent more extreme behaviour. This isn't entirely unreasonable, but lets please call a spade a spade and not pretend some woo-woo legal risk is the cause here. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1289
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 22:52:00 -
[169] - Quote
CCP misrepresenting themselves to the playerbase for their own gain, why I never. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1049
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:29:00 -
[170] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:CCP misrepresenting themselves to the playerbase for their own gain, why I never.
I'm no lawyer but a liability lawsuit of this nature could have dire consequences for CCP as a company and subsequently EVE (now I'm travelling down a slippery slope, but the consequences MUST be kept in mind).
- CCP Xhagen
Its actually kind of funny. CCP Xhagen never says he cares about the CSM or the individuals involved or is worried about their safety. Its only CCP as a company that he is worried about or shows care for. I suppose we could surmise from his statement that anything can happen to the CSM and they wouldn't care much, it would only be serious if a lawsuit or injunction against CCP the company happened. Or if EVE was damaged, their way of making money.
To his credit though, he did say the police or at least some countries might care about what happens to them, but otherwise its just the same cold universe we all signed up for. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1049
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:37:00 -
[171] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Hi I'm Lallante. I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am and have been incredibly interested and invested in Eve. I have not and cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career. Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v Seleene, what you (and CCP) with the very limited perspective of proud IT-industry professionals don't get is that publicly identifying with something as high profile yet niche and nerdy as this is a career limiting move for people in politics, finance, law, economics and other high profile non-IT careers. It is a clear if unhappy fact that for a large portion of the non-eve playing population (the vast majority), admitting membership of a political body in an MMO is akin to being a public advocate for furry rights, being the world's foremost buffy (or is it taylor swift?) fan-fiction author or being a member of a fringe political party - a.k.a. disturbing evidence that you are "a bit weird" or "obsessive" or otherwise not normal. Those people may be wrong (perhaps not?), in fact I wish they felt differently, but am I willing to throw my self on the bonfire pretending that this isn't so? Obviously not. Unfortunately, a lot of those people, being older and more traditional, occupy positions of power in high powered industries. I have a friend from an early and infamous corp of mine in Eve. He was a few years younger than me and aiming for a similar profession. He was less circumspect about his eve gaming than I was, and it became easily googleable. In his FIRST interview for a summer placement (the precursor to a real job) in the industry he was aiming for, the entire interview was spent with the interviewer essentially attacking his MMO gaming habit. And this is just for playing. Imagine how they would react when they found out you ran for an election and ended up in a player representative political body. Obviously he didnt get the job (or indeed any placements that year), and eventually cleaned up his online presence and got into the industry the next year. Before people give the same old tired **** about how "you can use eve to show when you've demonstrated leadership" etc. Get a clue. We aren't talking applying for a management position at McDonalds here. Any evidence that you are a risk to the organisation, or even give the interviewer or recruiter a funny feeling (which "being a bit weird" clearly constitutes) and your application goes in the circular filing tray. In conclusion - the argument for privacy on the grounds of safety is compelling on its own. On top of that, for many of us, the need to keep our private life and interests seperate from our careers is even more so. If CCP relax this rule people like me (but probably not me personally - few years too late!) might be persuaded to run.
Its actually quite funny you say that. I was looking at different countries views of unpaid interns, and the general view is that they are for kids or young people, to give them a shot at improving or being something some day. So saying you are on the CSM would only make you look childish perhaps in some places or not really having any professional experience.
Yes a lot of gaming is counter culture really, at least coming from the view point of professionals or something. So it will be hard for a company to like the MMOing, but also trying to impress them with being an older person who was an unpaid intern could backfire really. Sure they get paid with a free trip, but perhaps with some of them going over the hours spent then the amount of that trip. It could give companies the wrong impression really. Unless you want to work at wal mart or something. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:00:00 -
[172] - Quote
I am sure if CCP put the actual effort into it they could come up with a solution to a problem whose only roadblock is "because that's the way its always been" mantra. I mean if you are talking about liability for protecting names why not just sign a liability waiver in exchange for the anonymity. I can see first names slipping on occasion, but no one can really do anything with a first name so this liability argument is a little tough for me to swallow. Also how likely is it that CCP is going to drop someones full name in passing for example:
CCP Xhagen: "So me and Joey Jo-Jo Jr. Shabadu did keg stands at fanfest."
I know one talks that way and CCP Xhagen would never use improper grammar, instead it would probably come out like this:
CCP Xhagen: "During Fanfest Joey and I performed keg stands, it was a capital idea."
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1049
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 08:00:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Xhagen: "During Fanfest Joey and I performed keg stands, it was a capital idea. At least until someone threaten to sue my company, then I said the party was over, and told all the mean people to go home."
Well to be fair, I suppose the CSM is a small thing in this game. It only gets one dev while other projects and features get multiple devs. CCP already stated some features that require too much resources aren't business worthy for them to invest in. so with CSM being small, I imagine we really aren't gonna get CCP Xhagen to change his mind at all.
Suppose its sad that this could turn out like all other business ventures, where everyone just brings in tractors to mow the trees down, while the weird hippies chain themselves to the trees.
I will probably just go watch Ferngully being the foreshadowing of the CSM election, all the awhile knowing the Company I am watching won't get law suited, since they covered their liability so well.
Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 05:15:00 -
[174] - Quote
Bumping this till CCP takes this seriously. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7633
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 12:47:00 -
[175] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Hi I'm Lallante.
I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am and have been incredibly interested and invested in Eve.
I have not and cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career..
A compelling argument for keeping the system the way it is.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
126
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 18:49:00 -
[176] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lallante wrote:Hi I'm Lallante.
I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am and have been incredibly interested and invested in Eve.
I have not and cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career.. A compelling argument for keeping the system the way it is.
Sorry Amazon hasn't shipped my new sarcasism detector yet you'll need to be a little more pronounced with it till it shows up. |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 10:31:00 -
[177] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Malcanis wrote:Lallante wrote:Hi I'm Lallante.
I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am and have been incredibly interested and invested in Eve.
I have not and cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career.. A compelling argument for keeping the system the way it is. Sorry Amazon hasn't shipped my new sarcasism detector yet you'll need to be a little more pronounced with it till it shows up.
Malcanis just wants to meet this cool person. Would be a lot easier to meet, with their real life name. Its not Lallante's fault Google conspires against her and her business partners are lame.
A funny thing would be for someone to run for CSM and not give out their real life name. As in to see if someone could ever be popular enough, while anonymous, to gather a lot of votes, and CCP still think they are helpful even though no real life name given. Maybe they could even just run for the Non free trip to iceland part of CSM. They just do the video teleconference thing and stuff.
Besides some CSM don't post on the forums or anywhere enough, that knowing their real life name makes up for it. Be interesting to see if an anonymous person could post more, but not give out real life name. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7649
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 20:41:00 -
[178] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Malcanis wrote:Lallante wrote:Hi I'm Lallante.
I've been playing Eve since Beta (3), I've been involved in some of the most famous and infamous corps, alliances and events of the last decade. I've been part of alliance leadership of game-shaping alliances at the very top of Eve's meta curve. I'm in RvB, I've been part of FW, I've lived in Wormholes, I've missioned, I've market traded, I've scammed, I've run exploration sites, I've run production POSs, I've even harvested gas before it was cool. You may have met me at an Eve meet. I am and have been incredibly interested and invested in Eve.
I have not and cannot run for CSM because a easily googleable connection between my RL Persona and my Eve Persona would hurt my career.. A compelling argument for keeping the system the way it is. Sorry Amazon hasn't shipped my new sarcasism detector yet you'll need to be a little more pronounced with it till it shows up.
These forums really need a "I meant exactly what I said" smiley. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2454
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 21:33:00 -
[179] - Quote
I must say that despite the multitude of death threats I've received over the years, I would still run for CSM regardless of my name being thrown out there to the ravenous dogs that are my victims. If only I could put in the time to be an effective CSM. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
120
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 13:36:00 -
[180] - Quote
I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. |
|
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1724
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:24:00 -
[181] - Quote
Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1334
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:11:00 -
[182] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known. Why?
What do they base that one??
That sounds like a crock of cow patties to me, even if somebody appeared in those why does it need to be more than the in game name, thats still not an answer, its shifting the cop out somewhere else. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 04:18:00 -
[183] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known. Why? What do they base that one?? That sounds like a crock of cow patties to me, even if somebody appeared in those why does it need to be more than the in game name, thats still not an answer, its shifting the cop out somewhere else.
Well one would say EVE-TV or EON are pretty well made, respectable media. If CCP thinks you are worthy to put on their media sites and streams. They would not think anyone would try to harm you. Since you should be a cool person.
I mean we see EVE as a tainted place, so we have to watch out. But CCP sees some EVE and their media as being blessed moonwells, where no one can taint them. If the moonwells aren't tainted, why should they worry? Its a good thought, most people just troll the people on those sites or shows, but nothing ever serious really before. I mean in a serious way, the worse there could be is protesters showing up.
EDIT: Sorry for the WoW references, or am I?........... Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 06:07:00 -
[184] - Quote
Okay even if CCP puts someone on TV how hard is it to only identify that person as CSM [Your Character Name Here]? Further more does anyone actually know CCP Xhagen's name? I mean if CCP Xhagen is working with the CSM and its such a core requirement for the CSM to have their public names outed publicly, why not him? He gets paid by CCP and the CSM's are just volunteers and they have a higher burden by having to put their names out there. I mean really he doesn't have to worry about harassing phone calls because he doesn't have to hang his full name out there.
As far as CCP Xhagen will go. He converses openly with EVE players, self identifies as CCP Xhagen but doesn't go so far as to share his full name. Why?
If CCP won't share the burden that it asks of its CSM members then that burden should not be placed upon those in the CSM. Clearly if CCP Xhagen felt completely safe and believed in "the police will protect you" argument he would toss his name out there like he tossed himself out their in drag. I will give him props he can rock a bra better than I can, but still the fact remains we have a serious hypocrisy taking place here.
Further more I will call CCP Xhagen's attention back to the legal concern here. If CCP Xhagen is taking precautions here that he won't afford to the volunteers that make up the CSM some lawyer will eat CCP alive in an eventual lawsuit. I get why CCP Xhagen states he wants "behavioral controls" on CSM members but its wrong. The people elect who they think will best represent them and when you actively go out of your way to limit the pool from which the player base can elect people because of candidate intimidation then you are wrong, and you are defeating the purpose of the CSM.
As it stands we have had CSM members stalked, had their pets threatened and CCP has shown a depraved indifference by not being proactive on the matter. No one is asking CCP to anything they don't already do, or for that matter what CCP Xhagen does for himself in shielding his full name. CCP doesn't enable someone harassing a CCP employee because its not that hard to look up someone in the Icelandic phonebook, but CCP will enable a CSM member to be harassed because their full name and nationality can be tossed out there.
The game EVE is based on ethical shades of grey because that's part of theme to the game. Real life is black and white, there is right and wrong. If you're extending protection for some, denying it to others and ignoring harm by making prima facie arguments where do you think that stacks up in the right versus wrong column? |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 06:50:00 -
[185] - Quote
Further more I would call attention to the irony of CCP Xhangen's Twitter background of Boxxy. If he understood what can happen when someone gets a hold of your personal information I don't think he would use her as his background.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/boxxy
His background is Che Guevara Boxxy. A girl that got stalked off the internet because people got their hands on her information. Its hypocritical to talk about player safety being accounted for and then having the background image of the poster child for the dangers of the wrong information getting into the wrong hands.
I believe every player, employee and person related to EVE Online, CCP and the CSM deserves the same level of privacy and protection. I condemn in the strongest terms someone who DOXes private information of anyone, as a community we should afford each other privacy. In game you can scam, grief, marketeer and blow each other up to your hearts content. I'm steadfast in my belief that most of you are decent human beings of sound mind and body in real life, but not all of you. Its that small group we are protecting against, its not a condemnation of the player base at large. I hope CCP Xhagen will see this and consider the argument on its merit and not as a personal attack, its not meant to be that. It is however meant to be a strong argument that encourages a deeper reflection of the issue than what has occurred several pages earlier. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:00:00 -
[186] - Quote
Well I am sure his mom knows, his real life name. And isn't that enough for the most part?
Also your second link doesn't work, only links to this thread.
Also I am not catching the Boxxy part, it seems like a normal picture of Che Guevara, which a lot of people find popular. And as long as he is using it for a background instead of a T-shirt, shouldn't we all be thankful?
My internet sources came up with his first name as Petur. My guess its icelandic for Peter. Judging from popular Icelandic last names I will go with Petur longmountain, Petur Oceanbreeze or Petur hurfelssensdeightakdhftiagdsonsonsonsonadondft. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:06:00 -
[187] - Quote
If I had enough underground computer resources available, that included a Twitter account, I might be tempted to ask for his real name I suppose. Or is that gonna be too dastardly to keep a teen rating on the forums?
Actually too distracted now, Yes life complete, a picture of a man in the leia outfit while also having a pink mohawk. Life complete, underground connection and computer destroyed. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:14:00 -
[188] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Further more I would call attention to the irony of CCP Xhangen's Twitter background of Boxxy. If he understood what can happen when someone gets a hold of your personal information I don't think he would use her as his background. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/boxxy
(May need to copy paste link its buggy apparently) Further reading on how serious this actually got.His background is Che Guevara Boxxy. A girl that got stalked off the internet because people got their hands on her information. Its hypocritical to talk about player safety being accounted for and then having the background image of the poster child for the dangers of the wrong information getting into the wrong hands. I believe every player, employee and person related to EVE Online, CCP and the CSM deserves the same level of privacy and protection. I condemn in the strongest terms someone who DOXes private information of anyone, as a community we should afford each other privacy. In game you can scam, grief, marketeer and blow each other up to your hearts content. I'm steadfast in my belief that most of you are decent human beings of sound mind and body in real life, but not all of you. Its that small group we are protecting against, its not a condemnation of the player base at large. I hope CCP Xhagen will see this and consider the argument on its merit and not as a personal attack, its not meant to be that. It is however meant to be a strong argument that encourages a deeper reflection of the issue than what has occurred several pages earlier.
Well CCP Xhagen his link does go straight to porno. You are gonna have to work very hard to defeat Scooter McGabe now.
You tried to trick us with your fancy star wars, and hair coloring technology, but boobs are boobs, and no one can defeat them. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:18:00 -
[189] - Quote
Also like Scooter I stand against this moral outrage, of forcing us to come out with real life names, when CCP doesn't have to.
But they also go so far to create events (Described on the twitter account as for icelanders only, no one else included.) then when I try to read more about it, he Visually encrypted the whole page so I cannot read it or attempt to crash his party.
The dire evidence
How far will they push us, when they don't even follow their own rules!!!!!!!
EDIT: Okay, I found it, a part wasn't encrypted, thank god. Its the Lebowski bar. the Lebowski bar, now we know everything. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
136
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:24:00 -
[190] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Also like Scooter I stand against this moral outrage, of forcing us to come out with real life names, when CCP doesn't have to. But they also go so far to create events (Described on the twitter account as for icelanders only, no one else included.) then when I try to read more about it, he Visually encrypted the whole page so I cannot read it or attempt to crash his party. The dire evidenceHow far will they push us, when they don't even follow their own rules!!!!!!! EDIT: Okay, I found it, a part wasn't encrypted, thank god. Its the Lebowski bar. the Lebowski bar, now we know everything.
Go to bed you're drunk or going a little crazy due to lack of sleep. |
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 07:26:00 -
[191] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:rodyas wrote:Also like Scooter I stand against this moral outrage, of forcing us to come out with real life names, when CCP doesn't have to. But they also go so far to create events (Described on the twitter account as for icelanders only, no one else included.) then when I try to read more about it, he Visually encrypted the whole page so I cannot read it or attempt to crash his party. The dire evidenceHow far will they push us, when they don't even follow their own rules!!!!!!! EDIT: Okay, I found it, a part wasn't encrypted, thank god. Its the Lebowski bar. the Lebowski bar, now we know everything. Go to bed you're drunk or going a little crazy due to lack of sleep.
Aw, come on, just having some fun. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Styx Sertan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:13:00 -
[192] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:There are a number of safety issues being ignored, and few common sense justifications for not maintaining a CSM's anonymity.
I do believe people trying to swat The Mittani was pretty much a perfect example of a common sense justification |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1335
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:48:00 -
[193] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well I am sure his mom knows, his real life name. And isn't that enough for the most part?
It sure is and it should be good enough for the candidates too.
|
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
50
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 09:43:00 -
[194] - Quote
For legal reason CCP should have a copy of the passport of a candidate. I don't think that the voters need to know the real name of a person if the candidate doesn't want to. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
255
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:17:00 -
[195] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known.
And that's not true -- we never agreed as part of EVE-TV signup to be referred by our real-life identities. And why would anyone ask for that -- since we were there as representatives of the game player community commentating on events occurring in a game player eSport event.
All people are asking here is that the CSM process is a fair, balanced body of GAME PLAYERS -- and all people are asking for is that CCP does not make an official link between an in-game character and a player body representative. You can include in the private NDA/Legal agreements a paragraph about how CCP is not responsible for your real-life identity all you want to cover the legal aspects.
Unless, CCP Hagen, your reason to publish the RL identities have nothing to do with legal requirements - but more to do with ensuring potential future Game Industry employees "behave" and do not break their NDAs. Because this -- this I would understand. I would hope by now it's very obvious there have been, and there will always be very good candidates who this disclosure will restrict from applying - and so it'd be good to give it to those people straight if there are actual reasons for you to require this official disclosure of identity. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
At the very least this topic needs to be properly discussed again at the next CSM meeting, with someone who knows what they are talking about advocating the anonymity position. |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:06:00 -
[197] - Quote
Shadoo wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known. And that's not true -- we never agreed as part of EVE-TV signup to be referred by our real-life identities. And why would anyone ask for that -- since we were there as representatives of the game player community commentating on events occurring in a game player eSport event. All people are asking here is that the CSM process is a fair, balanced body of GAME PLAYERS -- and all people are asking for is that CCP does not make an official link between an in-game character and a player body representative. You can include in the private NDA/Legal agreements a paragraph about how CCP is not responsible for your real-life identity all you want to cover the legal aspects. Unless, CCP Hagen, your reason to publish the RL identities have nothing to do with legal requirements - but more to do with ensuring potential future Game Industry employees "behave" and do not break their NDAs. Because this -- this I would understand. I would hope by now it's very obvious there have been, and there will always be very good candidates who this disclosure will restrict from applying - and so it'd be good to give it to those people straight if there are actual reasons for you to require this official disclosure of identity.
Well I think this and Lallante's comments are very good comments. The problem I see though, that once an anonymous supporter successfully proves their point. CCP just isn't gonna accept the world is ******, so they shouldn't have any rules or standards.
Most likely they are gonna want to combat how bad it is, then reinstate their rules.
So far it seems two groups keep people from the CSM. The criminals in a way, as well as peer pressure or wanting a business relationship. (Hopefully someone can add other reasons to it as well.)
So if the anonymous viewpoint won, CCP would try to address how bad the criminals, blackmail, stalking and threats are. As well as how a business would take it learning about how they play so much EVE. Or even how a relative would take it learning a member of their family plays so much EVE, or how seriously they take it.
I mean maybe a anonymous person could run for the CSM, but if they take the easy road, and don't even try to address the hard issues, like the ones above, it will be hard to take them seriously at all.
(Personally I feel the business relations one is very strong or too big, to make much leeway, so I don't have too much hope in that regards personally, but other players probably will have more experience then I do. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 07:48:00 -
[198] - Quote
Shadoo wrote:
Unless, CCP Hagen, your reason to publish the RL identities have nothing to do with legal requirements - but more to do with ensuring potential future Game Industry employees "behave" and do not break their NDAs. Because this -- this I would understand. I would hope by now it's very obvious there have been, and there will always be very good candidates who this disclosure will restrict from applying - and so it'd be good to give it to those people straight if there are actual reasons for you to require this official disclosure of identity.
Well do you find it important that Game Industry (Employees is almost too strong of a word) "behave"?
Also if you do agree, what do you know about those very good candidates, that show they would behave well if elected?
I mean it does seem awfully strong to publish a persons real life name. Who knows if anything can ever measure up to how strong that is.
But I don't have anything to compare really, so it would be interesting to see some examples. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1706
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:33:00 -
[199] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known. The BBC and MSNBC have run eve articles where they interviewed players and used only their in-game names.
I'm pretty sure if they can do it, then no one is going to give a **** what EON do or don't publish.
This argument is junk.
Speaking of the media, CCP really need to consider what happens if someone is harassed 'IRL' due to them being a CSM; no matter what legal position CCP think they're sitting on the media will take a **** on CCP like you wouldn't believe if they tied the release of personal information by CCP and the harassment as an inevitable consequence of it (which it is, by the way, it has already happened). CCP commenting and saying "but we always do this because we are creating accountability" is just not going to win that one. I'm being sarcastic. If anything serious happened and someone passed Xhagen's quote to the press there would be no end to the flames it would cause. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 03:54:00 -
[200] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Lallante wrote:I'm keen to see if CCP has anything else to say now I've called out their legal argument. Their argument is now based on media. Since a CSM member may appear on EVE-TV or EON magazine, your real-life identity must be known. The BBC and MSNBC have run eve articles where they interviewed players and used only their in-game names. I'm pretty sure if they can do it, then no one is going to give a **** what EON do or don't publish. This argument is junk. Speaking of the media, CCP really need to consider what happens if someone is harassed 'IRL' due to them being a CSM; no matter what legal position CCP think they're sitting on the media will take a **** on CCP like you wouldn't believe if they tied the release of personal information by CCP and the harassment as an inevitable consequence of it (which it is, by the way, it has already happened). CCP commenting and saying "but we always do this because we are creating accountability" is just not going to win that one. I'm being sarcastic. If anything serious happened and someone passed Xhagen's quote to the press there would be no end to the flames it would cause.
But those media organizations or the anchors do like giving their names out, as well as their background and what they did before they joined up.
If anything, those news site, will agree to allow a person to stay anonymous as well on a general bases outside of EVE, to help protect them and such. Of course, none of those people, were ever hired afterwards, to be an anchor on the show and stuff. Usually the people who need to stay anonymous are involved in pretty heavy stuff, and it would be hard for the company to shoulder that burden.
Like lets say a team member of seal team six, has an interview but would be anonymous. Would MSNBC hire him afterwards? Well that member would bring all the drama of a muslim backlash and attacks that MSNBC would have a hard time dealing with.
Of course being a member of team seal six, is a great thing, and they are probably trustworthy as well and most places would think it would be cool to hire one, or see one as an asset.
Of course the seal member will feel bad for not being hired, but most likely a company will feel bad as well for not being able to hire them.
So perhaps CCP does feel bad at least for not allowing cool people in EVE to run, but it might be too much extra drama and burden then the company can really deal with. Of course we will never know if CCP does feel bad, it can't allow certain people to run, because CCP Xhagen doesn't post here anymore, but who knows. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
|
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
141
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 07:29:00 -
[201] - Quote
Sorry your example just doesn't work. Most people coming from that sort of background don't plaster "Navy SEAL" across their resume. They certainly list they were in the service and an occupation in the service that involves something other than what they did. A company can still hire someone on the grounds that their skill set matches up with what they need for the position they just don't need to know what that person actually did. Only their chain of command needs to know their actual capabilities and service record. In fact going public about being a SEAL, GROM, GIGN, SAS, SPETNAZ and GSG 9 is frowned upon within the respective communities of those operators. Profiting off your experience and writing a book with earn you a personae non gratis status in your community because of the information it can expose. So let's set that aside.
Since we are dealing with players in EVE and their revelation of their identity for the purposes of the CSM let's review what everyone really needs to know. You need to know the alts of the person who is running and their accounts, you need to know they have a solid head on their shoulders, you need to know what they stand for and who they want to represent. Knowing my name and where I live, or how to look up my personal information does not factor into that equation. The only time that information has been used for anything is when psychopaths like Prencleeve Grothsmore develop unhealthy fixations. Then CCP is their to enable that fixation with a treasure trove of information created by their disclosure requirement.
Now in CCP's case they need to know you can travel to Iceland without restriction, you are not a felon, you are not from a rival game company, you are not in violation of the EULA and that you can honor a signed legal document. For that I would be more than happy to let CCP, and CCP alone have that. After all they can manage to protect my identity and billing information somehow. As for my ability to follow a signed legal document they certainly have a legal recourse if they actually opted to use it. You would think if someone was giving away company secrets that the logical course of action would be injunctions and damages, not dangling someone's name out in the public square. In fact the threat of dangling someone's name out there makes little sense as a deterrent. If everyone already has to know my name anyway who cares if my name gets tossed out there again as a breacher of contracts if that's all that comes of it? Now finding myself at the business end of a major lawsuit facing possible punitive damages to dissuade others from breaking NDAs in the future is what I call a deterrent.
CCP Xhagen has stated this is to prevent assholes from getting on the CSM. The thing is CCP can only really know me from my play style in game. If CCP is judging me on that then they enter a slippery slope of validating the argument that what people do in games reflects who they actually are as a person. That gives credence to the people that say playing Call Of Duty turns you into a mass murderer, and we play a game where we blow each other up, market manipulate, engage in Machiavellian scheming or sit in front of asteroids for hours on end doing nothing. You validate that argument you make it that much easier to dictate and censor what can be done in a game. No electronic entertainment company wants to be the one that everyone points the finger at as to who let the conservatives in the door and ruin another fun thing. So CCP should bite the bullet and take a chance on the people they trust to elect the CSM, the player base. That's the real filter. If a candidate is a complete ******* with bad ideas the voters will not elect that candidate and the player base will laugh them right out of the election before it even starts. Leave the filtering to the player base, the vetting to CCP and the natural right of privacy to the individual player. |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 04:03:00 -
[202] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Sorry your example just doesn't work. Most people coming from that sort of background don't plaster "Navy SEAL" across their resume. They certainly list they were in the service and an occupation in the service that involves something other than what they did. A company can still hire someone on the grounds that their skill set matches up with what they need for the position they just don't need to know what that person actually did. Only their chain of command needs to know their actual capabilities and service record. In fact going public about being a SEAL, GROM, GIGN, SAS, SPETNAZ and GSG 9 is frowned upon within the respective communities of those operators. Profiting off your experience and writing a book with earn you a personae non gratis status in your community because of the information it can expose. So let's set that aside.
Since we are dealing with players in EVE and their revelation of their identity for the purposes of the CSM let's review what everyone really needs to know. You need to know the alts of the person who is running and their accounts, you need to know they have a solid head on their shoulders, you need to know what they stand for and who they want to represent. Knowing my name and where I live, or how to look up my personal information does not factor into that equation. The only time that information has been used for anything is when psychopaths like Prencleeve Grothsmore develop unhealthy fixations. Then CCP is their to enable that fixation with a treasure trove of information created by their disclosure requirement.
Now in CCP's case they need to know you can travel to Iceland without restriction, you are not a felon, you are not from a rival game company, you are not in violation of the EULA and that you can honor a signed legal document. For that I would be more than happy to let CCP, and CCP alone have that. After all they can manage to protect my identity and billing information somehow. As for my ability to follow a signed legal document they certainly have a legal recourse if they actually opted to use it. You would think if someone was giving away company secrets that the logical course of action would be injunctions and damages, not dangling someone's name out in the public square. In fact the threat of dangling someone's name out there makes little sense as a deterrent. If everyone already has to know my name anyway who cares if my name gets tossed out there again as a breacher of contracts if that's all that comes of it? Now finding myself at the business end of a major lawsuit facing possible punitive damages to dissuade others from breaking NDAs in the future is what I call a deterrent.
CCP Xhagen has stated this is to prevent assholes from getting on the CSM. The thing is CCP can only really know me from my play style in game. If CCP is judging me on that then they enter a slippery slope of validating the argument that what people do in games reflects who they actually are as a person. That gives credence to the people that say playing Call Of Duty turns you into a mass murderer, and we play a game where we blow each other up, market manipulate, engage in Machiavellian scheming or sit in front of asteroids for hours on end doing nothing. You validate that argument you make it that much easier to dictate and censor what can be done in a game. No electronic entertainment company wants to be the one that everyone points the finger at as to who let the conservatives in the door and ruin another fun thing. So CCP should bite the bullet and take a chance on the people they trust to elect the CSM, the player base. That's the real filter. If a candidate is a complete ******* with bad ideas the voters will not elect that candidate and the player base will laugh them right out of the election before it even starts. Leave the filtering to the player base, the vetting to CCP and the natural right of privacy to the individual player.
Well ya gotta get a job at some point though, unless you plan on looting and plundering your way to financial success.
I probably could just use the military and other things for the analogy though. Most of those people who serve are anonymous in a way as well. But most people feel they are trustworthy and good people, even though you don't know their name or have ever met them.
Also electronic companies have a gentlemen's agreement with the conservatives. Those companies don't have to actually let anyone in, or say they were invited, but if you want to come in or have enough proof to allow yourself in, you can. So shouldn't worry about electronic companies I suppose.
Seems like you want a revolution then anything, and I almost don't blame ya, the games vs society is a hard one, and I see your points, but CCP is still just a company and you said I am not allowed to make navy seal and A units analogies, so the revolution probably won't go to far.
As far as EVE knowledge, it is fun to hear the person's real name, maybe not necessary at all times, but its always fun when it comes out though. (Unless you don't like the country they come from, then its harder when they give out their RL name and info.)
Your last paragraph is harder to answer really, you mostly want anonymity to stay independent from CCP influence and more of a purity with the players. you brought up trust and that is a hard issue really. Probably be best for CCP to explain their side, and what someone would have to be like or live up, for CCP to be able to trust them really.
Now for fun.
"Now finding myself at the business end of a major lawsuit facing possible punitive damages to dissuade others from breaking NDAs in the future is what I call a deterrent. "
Unless you are Grath, he doesn't see that as a deterrent. He just views it as another hot drop waiting to happen to the filer of the lawsuit. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
141
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 07:01:00 -
[203] - Quote
I don't think you actually read my last post carefully, so let me condense it down to something more manageable for you:
1. Navy SEALs have nothing to do with EVE Online and that makes for a bad example. Further more your bad example was incorrect.
2. The player base only needs to know if you have a good head on your shoulders, obviously campaigning on a platform and your in game experience is all they really have to go on. A name and location don't add anything into to factoring a candidate's suitability.
3. CCP is the one with the actual need to know the most about you, and giving them that information is fine.
4. Being held to a legal contract is the only real deterrent to bad behavior.
5. The filtering process against "behaviorally problematic candidates" is the election itself.
6. The only use for a candidate's real life name and location is for harassment.
7. CCP's argument for "behavioral controls" can be twisted into an argument for censorship and content control which has a broader negative impact than simply having to work with a volunteer you don't get along with. |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 07:57:00 -
[204] - Quote
Well point number 7 doesn't really jive well with number 4 really.
If you want a legal contract to be real or have meaning, or work as a deterrent most likely you will have content control and censorship or would me more open to use them.
Analogy
I do like things being legal, which you seem to agree with, suppose kind of with censorship. (Those FBI ads of winners don't do drugs were always annoying.) But its hard to have things legal, if people are misbehaving. Kind of defeats the purpose really. (Especially, since drugs wouldn't help with mortal kombat. or does it?)(I need some experiments to see if the FBI were telling the truth or not.)
Other then that, your election and political ideas are pretty advanced and ahead of their times really. I do think CCP is improving the election and holding more variables accountable. But its probably a bit further down the road, till an election is the way you see it working as.
I know its almost beaten to a dead horse state, but the mittani went through the election and won with the most votes. So he should have been the head angel for Jesus, with your view of election and accountability. (Well satan was the head angel, so I suppose you still win in the argument.) But he did have a hard time afterwards, so the election didn't totally mean he was trustworthy. (Plus the dude he went after. The mittani didn't know where he lived or his name ( I presume that, maybe he did know) but still managed to do harm to him in a way as well.))
I am just saying, I wish you were right I suppose, that the election only meant good people would run and win. That way behavior controls and censorship wouldn't have to be used. But some day perhaps. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:09:00 -
[205] - Quote
Well the military ops people ( who are usually older) use to be able it seemed like to be able to move on pretty easily. Either into the security or training world. Or Haney from delta, became a writer of books as well as for a television series, which is kind of done more now with video games as well.
Not all the ops people probably go the Haney route, but might not find jobs in the security world as well. And with them being older, as well as not having the higher rank the officers would get. It would be hard for them to assimilate to civilian life as easy as other people.
You almost take their code of morals for granted, but it could be harder, especially with the bad economy and such. But if the military and higher ups don't take care of the operators, I am sure a lot of things frowned upon could happen more regularly. (I think Haney was written off by DELTA for writing so much, but he seemed to enjoy doing what he did, so who knows who the winners are. Especially since most likely current delta and Haney both never did drugs. I bet the FBI has a real problem on their hands, with no easy answer to be found.) Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:33:00 -
[206] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well point number 7 doesn't really jive well with number 4 really..
Sure they jive.
A contract requires specificity - in other words, you have to clearly define the "bad behaviour" you're trying to prevent, and clearly define the punishments that will happen if said rules are broken. This ensures that both candidate and CCP are on the same page.
Point 7 shows the problem of deviating from the contract, in that "bad behaviour" is no longer clearly defined, which leaves the definition in the hands of whoever has a candidate's RL name. It turns a clear boundary into a gigantic gray area, which is bad, especially when dealing with a playerbase as reactionary and quite frankly unhinged as the Eve playerbase.
Furthermore, everything you say about the inherent behaviour of candidates or any such nonsense is just that - nonsense. The bottom line is that we as players have no right to have the ability to punish people (not players, but the actual people behind them) for whatever definition of "good" or "bad" behaviour that we've conjured in our own minds. Advocating for this is like advocating for vigilante justice, and that's just wrong in every possible way. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
"You validate that argument you make it that much easier to dictate and censor what can be done in a game."
I will admit, I probably fall into the category more often then any other one.
But I would say that CCP is more then an electronics company as well. They seem to like being independent and hip and pushing new ideas. So I imagine they have extra layers of hating censorship. Unless censorship was new and hip. But I tease myself too much.
"personae non gratis status"
Also, look at you using big words. How about you handle content content control, while I am in charge of Censorship. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:41:00 -
[208] - Quote
rodyas wrote:But I would say that CCP is more then an electronics company as well. They seem to like being independent and hip and pushing new ideas. So I imagine they have extra layers of hating censorship. Unless censorship was new and hip. But I tease myself too much.
"personae non gratis status"
You say this, and yet they still happily hang out people's RL identity to the pack of jackals that is the Eve playerbase, which translates into "appeal to everyone or catch harassment". A player having to censor how he plays in-game because of what some random player with his RL identity might do out-of-game should be worst case scenario for CCP. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:45:00 -
[209] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:rodyas wrote:Well point number 7 doesn't really jive well with number 4 really.. Sure they jive. A contract requires specificity - in other words, you have to clearly define the "bad behaviour" you're trying to prevent, and clearly define the punishments that will happen if said rules are broken. This ensures that both candidate and CCP are on the same page. Point 7 shows the problem of deviating from the contract, in that "bad behaviour" is no longer clearly defined, which leaves the definition in the hands of whoever has a candidate's RL name. It turns a clear boundary into a gigantic gray area, which is bad, especially when dealing with a playerbase as reactionary and quite frankly unhinged as the Eve playerbase. Furthermore, everything you say about the inherent behaviour of candidates or any such nonsense is just that - nonsense. The bottom line is that we as players have no right to have the ability to punish people (not players, but the actual people behind them) for whatever definition of "good" or "bad" behaviour that we've conjured in our own minds. Advocating for this is like advocating for vigilante justice, and that's just wrong in every possible way.
I mostly took his point 7 as an argument against behavior controls all together, but maybe he just meant bad or misguided behavior controls. (That is a hard thing to argue as well, since Scooter has already introduced society into the mix. Almost wouldn't want to touch it.)
Well we can punish them in the elections by not voting for them, or for trolling them. Suppose that could be bad, like ya say it is. Why ISD and Dev Mods are so involved. Suppose trolls don't have a right to troll, like ya say, but they keep on trollin'.
Besides, I usually agree with CCP being the arbitrator of punishment or so defined through the EULA or the business rules or law enforcement rules, if things went that far. Not really the players. Which is why we are so angry in this thread, since they don't seem to be doing their job, and iceland doesn't have mexicans so they can't tell us their jobs were stolen. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:51:00 -
[210] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:rodyas wrote:But I would say that CCP is more then an electronics company as well. They seem to like being independent and hip and pushing new ideas. So I imagine they have extra layers of hating censorship. Unless censorship was new and hip. But I tease myself too much.
"personae non gratis status" You say this, and yet they still happily hang out people's RL identity to the pack of jackals that is the Eve playerbase, which translates into "appeal to everyone or catch harassment". A player having to censor how he plays in-game because of what some random player with his RL identity might do out-of-game should be worst case scenario for CCP.
Well that is a worst case scenario, but like I said, a player can still cause grief or harass others, without knowing their RL name. (Which is why you can be banned for it.) But actions in real life have a tragic nature to themselves unique from internet trolling.
As for the case of self censorship for self defense, that is another annoying problem. Be hard to solve that one as well. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:55:00 -
[211] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well that is a worst case scenario, but like I said, a player can still cause grief or harass others, without knowing their RL name. (Which is why you can be banned for it.) But actions in real life have a tragic nature to themselves unique from internet trolling.
Right, it's worst case, and CCP is directly enabling and encouraging it by needlessly publishing people's RL identities. Of course harassment can still happen, nothing will eliminate it entirely. There's still no reason at all for CCP to enable harassment by publishing RL names, though.
rodyas wrote:As for the case of self censorship for self defense, that is another annoying problem. Be hard to solve that one as well.
It's surprisingly easy to mitigate. It's called "stop publishing people's identities, CCP". "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1053
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 09:07:00 -
[212] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:rodyas wrote:Well that is a worst case scenario, but like I said, a player can still cause grief or harass others, without knowing their RL name. (Which is why you can be banned for it.) But actions in real life have a tragic nature to themselves unique from internet trolling. Right, it's worst case, and CCP is directly enabling and encouraging it by needlessly publishing people's RL identities. Of course harassment can still happen, nothing will eliminate it entirely. There's still no reason at all for CCP to enable harassment by publishing RL names, though. rodyas wrote:As for the case of self censorship for self defense, that is another annoying problem. Be hard to solve that one as well. It's surprisingly easy to mitigate. It's called "stop publishing people's identities, CCP".
For the first part, CCP says they leave it up for the candidate to decide and weigh the dangers to running and see if they will accept the conditions. I say that since that is what CCP states what they will do.
For us, we can read the threads and see if they are naive or don't understand everything that could happen, and ask them about it or so. Like Scooter said, the election time, should be a purification time, to see what a candidate is like really.
For the second part, I am not here to throw stones, so I won't go into it very much. But not even knowing real life identities, self censorship could happen. I suppose sometimes, I look at the game first, before real life.
But like I said, content control is Scooter's area, not mine. So its hard for me to discuss much. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 10:01:00 -
[213] - Quote
rodyas wrote:For the first part, CCP says they leave it up for the candidate to decide and weigh the dangers to running and see if they will accept the conditions. I say that since that is what CCP states what they will do.
Right, and the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD is that said "dangers" they will deal with because of CCP releasing their names are entirely unnecessary as CCP has no good reason at all to release their names. All that stuff about self censorship etc etc are just additional downsides to CCP needlessly releasing said information.
Again, for the cheap seats, the argument is THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO RELEASE THE INFORMATION TO THE PLAYERBASE. Can you possibly stick to that instead of rambling incoherently about **** knows what that has nothing to do with the above argument? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
rodyas
tie fighters inc
1055
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 01:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:rodyas wrote:For the first part, CCP says they leave it up for the candidate to decide and weigh the dangers to running and see if they will accept the conditions. I say that since that is what CCP states what they will do. Right, and the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD is that said "dangers" they will deal with because of CCP releasing their names are entirely unnecessary as CCP has no good reason at all to release their names. All that stuff about self censorship etc etc are just additional downsides to CCP needlessly releasing said information. We also know CCP's justifications for releasing the information, we just think they're unacceptable. Again, for the cheap seats, the argument is THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO RELEASE THE INFORMATION TO THE PLAYERBASE. Can you possibly stick to that instead of rambling incoherently about **** knows what that has nothing to do with the above argument?
Your argument is weak really. Been trying to make it stronger. But suppose CCP Xhagen's big face will rise triumphant at the end anyhow. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1830
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 21:19:00 -
[215] - Quote
As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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