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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3042
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Posted - 2013.01.31 08:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.
Discuss.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force This is why we cant have nice things
53
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Posted - 2013.01.31 08:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
No it does not Some of the suggested changes I've seen on the forums to ecm would create very good counter play. The main problem with ecm is in large engagements its pretty balanced. In small ones it just buggers everything up. Nerfing it for small gang would just push the buggering up side of things over to large fights and fixes nothing.
TLDR
Yes its broken but no easy fix. In my opinion. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
543
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Posted - 2013.01.31 08:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss.
ECM is SO overrated. It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it...as every module in eve.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Whitehound
537
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Posted - 2013.01.31 08:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Demanding counter play for everything is bad, because it makes everyone a winner and is meant to avoid losers.
How would ganking, awoxing, spying, theft, etc. fit in here? It does not, yet it is a part of EVE. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Sab Sab Five
Purging Maelstrom
8
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote: It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it
tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc.
Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game.
i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes? |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
544
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sab Sab Five wrote:Quote: It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc. Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game. i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes?
If you refer to ECM being overpowered in solo pvp because someone brings a falcon Alt you would be wrong again...if someone brings a falcon Alt it is NOT solo. You know...there is always the risk that your opponent may be better prepared than you.
If you are in a small gang bring dampeners...work wonders on falcons...
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
224
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
ECM is only a problem when you are engaging target you know nothing about. In wars for example ECM is irrelevant because as soon as one side relizes the other uses they make small fitting adjustments and render it completetly useless, which is why its more balanced in larger Null Sec battles as people know its coming so they always prepare for it.
I don't really see any reason to change ECM. Its effective but has plenty of ways it can be countered. More importantly it creates a profession in the game and the more mechanics we have around which professions can exist the better.
The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4567
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7498
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss.
ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3043
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
224
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts.
The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4567
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Hehe true, altho if someone jams you they dont know if you have eccm fitted, fof missiles, etc, so altho i agree there isnt much to counter, there still are mods etc that your enemy "could" be using. It all depends on what mods you are willing to sacrifice to have the "counters" fitted. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Danny John-Peter
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
185
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts. The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them.
Falcons, they can cloak.
ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign.
But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
227
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts. The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them. Falcons, they can cloak. ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign. But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633
Eve is not a solo game. If your caught solo by a fleet with a cloaked ship, you failed, not the mechanic. People often mistake having a "bigger" ship, is an I win button. I assure you thats not the case. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
418
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh this topic again! New and exciting.
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Jammed = loss? Wrong.
_______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Whitehound
538
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Posted - 2013.01.31 09:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too.
What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix.
Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids.
Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Super spikinator
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
73
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss. ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better.
I agree. A rework of anti-missile weapons and the introduction of large hull anti-drone weapons that aren't smartbombs would be great. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7499
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
If you must. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Whitehound
539
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If you must. Are you confirm that this is a stealth "vote for Malcanis" thread?
And further, can you confirm to be recycling old topics to gain votes for your campaign? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
271
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss. Yes it does.
There is a myriad of different ways to fit a ship, in order to counter ECM. No, it's not just ECCM.
If you chose to maximise your potential for one scenario and forego anything else, you are vulnerable to your opponent taking advantage of that.
None of what was presented in that video happens if one part doesn't actually think and takes advantage of the different tactical options.
The fact that EVE players tend to charge in with only one unit, tank and gank, is not something you can fault ECM for. Actually, the fact that ECM counters are so widely ignored would seem to suggest that it is not common enough, or big enough of a threat, to warrant trade-offs in ship fittings.
I don't see a whole lot of ECM solo kills, especially compared to other e-war ships. Simply because an ECM boat that is fit to be able to tackle, keep in range AND kill a target, is not fit with a full rack of ECM modules and able to permajam a target. They are much more vulnerable than other e-war ships, because of the RNG aspect of ECM.
I know I'd much rather run into an ECM boat when solo, than a Gallente recon with a long point and sensor damps. |
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TharOkha
0asis Group
505
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
366
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.
If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.
If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.
Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.
Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too. What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix. Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids. Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes?
Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.
Just saying.
There is quiiiiite the difference between a "slow" and a "perma-stun" effect. If you now have the capability to imagine such a thing that is.
And I really love it when people insist on comparing different mechanics that are completely unrelated to one another in their functionality and gameplay effects. Makes them look that much more stupid. |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4569
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
hmm, i wonder if ECM might need a charge, same as cap boosters. That way you are limited to how much you can use it, and each charge size is a different strength ecm charge. you can carry loads of "50" size charges which are not as strong, or a few 800 size which are garanteed jams, but have to be used sparingly. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Whitehound
541
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies. And the one who is jammed can still fly away, or use drones, or auto-targeting missiles, or smartbombs, or ECM burst, or a target spectrum breaker, or out-tank the DPS, or lock faster and dampen the sensors, or fit ECCM, or ... SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
366
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM)
Thats how I think ECM drones should work tbh.
The modules on the specific ships should be a "jammed untill cycle ends" then there's the %chance to jam again. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
549
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm.
Ever heard of a ECM Burst??
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Le Badass
Zealots of Bob
54
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Great video, I've bookmarked it and will try out their other vids as soon as I have time. +1 for the link alone. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
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Posted - 2013.01.31 10:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.
If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.
If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.
Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.
Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation.
The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this.
Best part is that you can keep nerfing or boosting whichever side you want but you will never reach an ideal spot.
If ECM was changed to be an active effect with a wider range of results then there would not be any reason to complain about it anymore. I think that the actual effects of ECM are perfectly fine, just that it needs to be brought in line with all other e-warfare modules.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
272
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Posted - 2013.01.31 11:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:[Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.
Just saying. Except that, you know... people don't drop bubbles on you if they expect to lose.
This is the biggest problem with ECM. As long as people can lock, they're happy to go down in a ball of fire. Disregarding the fact that they had no chance of actually winning while being webbed, target painted and tracking disrupted while having the scan res of a Titan.
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