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Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
1
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Posted - 2011.10.11 08:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, I'll try to keep this concise. I've read numerous threads on here and off topic conversations regarding the situation with Gallente, and decided to put together my own thoughts on how to fix the situation.
1. More range on hybrids, particularly blasters.
Reason: Gallente are traditionally slow. Recent adjustments to the game have made some advantages gallente could use to bypass this not as efficient. Since they cannot set the engagement range due to their speed, they need the ability to fight effectively in a slightly wider envelope. By no means should they have better tracking than Autocannons, as that would infringe too much on Minmatar niche, but this would be a relatively simple fix to some of the problems at hand.
My thoughts on turret balance would be something like this:
Projectile: Damage-Mid Range-Low Tracking-Hi Energy: Damage-Low Range-Hi Tracking-Mid Hybrid: Damage-Hi Range-Mid Tracking-Low
2. Bring back Gallente Drone superiority.
Note: this one's potentially trickier, so bear with me a moment.
Reason: I understand fully why CCP removed the drone control bonuses from all ships, way back when. It contributed too much to lag. However, I do not advocate giving all drone ships back said bonuses. Rather, I think a few select gallente ships should have it.
Further, I do not think it should be a 'universal' bonus, but rather should be limited to certain types/sizes of drones. I would propose giving the Vexor and Myrmidon +1 drone controlled per level in Gallente ship skill. With the Dominix netting +2 per level, and the Moros gaining +3.
Now, I think the Vexor should be limited to medium drones or smaller. The Myrmidon and Dominix, perhaps be limited to EWar or Logistics Drones (maybe sentries on the Domi, not sure). Leaving only the Moros with the ability to field full wings of combat drones.
Allowing these ships to dual role with their drones would make them more potent, without increasing server lag to the point it once was with all drone ships having the drone control bonuses, and it would allow them to keep their drone damage bonuses, since they would not effect their 'second wings'.
I'll leave it at that for now, though I do have a few other ideas. Don't want to complicate the discussion too much here. |
Tristan North
The Scope
13
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Posted - 2011.10.11 11:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gallente should be fast / agile. Hybrids should be high dps / high track / very short range. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
2
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Posted - 2011.10.11 14:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tristan North wrote:Gallente should be fast / agile. Hybrids should be high dps / high track / very short range. Okay, why do you think that?
Gallente have some ships with bonuses to microwarp drives and such, but they have traditionally been slower than everyone but perhaps Amarr. Their ships are not small, or sleak, and thus speed and agility would require significant justification.
As for Hybrids having high DPS and tracking, you have to strike a balance somewhere, which is why I gave each category in my 'turret balance' one high, one mid, and one low factor. Otherwise one category is going to overshadow the others, which would put us right back in the situation we're in now with Hybrids being overshadowed by the other two.
So, you're welcome to your opinion, but please explain your justification, otherwise it does not move the discussion forwards. |
Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol EISENFAUST.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.11 15:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
When you said Moros did you mean Moros? |
Fracture Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
I like some of the ideas, which should help considering you can't overheat drones and there's no hardwiring for drones either. Combined with the hybrid shortcomings, Gallente have it pretty rough. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
In the end, balance means comparable DPS in a certain ship class across all 4 races.
You wont get a dominix with 10 heavy drones and if you would, then probably with half the damage per drone, because otherwise a domi would be imbalanced. So whats the point?? |
Perdition64
The Xenodus Initiative. ORPHANS OF EVE
0
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gallente could be fast, but not agile.
Line up your target, MWD into range easily, but LOL, if you want to disengage, you're going to have to really work for it. Stuff like giant turning circles, longer align time, lower agility, etc. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
2
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Posted - 2011.10.12 00:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Skinae wrote:When you said Moros did you mean Moros? I meant the Dreadnought, yes. Though I suppose that bonus should be applied to all Gallente non-carrier Capitals, or something similar to it anyways.
Robert Caldera wrote:In the end, everything boils down to DPS for a certain ship class across all 4 races.
You wont get a dominix with 10 heavy drones and if you would, then probably with half the damage per drone, because otherwise a domi would be imbalanced. So whats the point??
I understand that 10 heavy drones on a domi probably won't happen, which is why I suggested limiting what the extra drone control allows you to have.
Maybe you won't be able to get 10 heavies, but what about 5 Heavies, and 5 Webbers? Wouldn't being able to field stasis webbifier drones alongside your combat drones help solve some of the other issues Gallente face, like the nerf to the web module range?
Perdition64 wrote:Gallente could be fast, but not agile.
Line up your target, MWD into range easily, but LOL, if you want to disengage, you're going to have to really work for it. Stuff like giant turning circles, longer align time, lower agility, etc.
I'd considered this myself, and in some ways they do already fit that mold with some of their ships, the ones with microwarp drive bonuses. Adjusting the overall stats of the ship to further reflect this could certainly help as well. Perhaps I'll add that to my OP. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.15 03:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
I added some more specific details and numbers to point 2 in the original post. So here's a bump to bring it to people's attention. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
38
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Posted - 2011.10.15 04:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
no |
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Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.15 04:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Care to elaborate, or was it your intention merely to bump the thread without actually contributing anything to it? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
38
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Posted - 2011.10.15 04:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Samantha Tel'Vellor wrote:Care to elaborate, or was it your intention merely to bump the thread without actually contributing anything to it?
no |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.15 05:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Samantha Tel'Vellor wrote:Care to elaborate, or was it your intention merely to bump the thread without actually contributing anything to it? no Lol, I see, so providing humor and entertainment was your intention. Well you've succeeded. Thanks for that! XD
Now, let's get back on topic. |
Schnoo
EC Riders Mech Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.10.15 05:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hmm, adding additional drones that only gallente could use, might further reduce the usage of frigates, as they already get destroyed by drones, especially the AFs. Also, some other races have drone boats, f.e the arbitrator line of ships for Amarr, which might drastically drop in usage in favor of some of these ships.
In general I wouldn't mind, if there would be a change to the Smartbomb (smart?) mechanics, so as to allow for their use in high sec. But this probably won't happen as it'd drastically change eve's view on friendly fire discrimination. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.15 05:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Well, if this idea works out well, I could see applying it to a few other race's ships as well, but for the moment I'm focusing on Gallente, for two reasons. One, they're they only ones who have 'drone ships' beyond cruisers (not counting rattlesnakes), and two, because they seem to be in need of a boost at present. |
Yume Mei
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.15 11:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Samantha Tel'Vellor wrote:My thoughts on turret balance would be something like this:
Projectile: Damage-Mid Range-Low Tracking-Hi Energy: Damage-Low Range-Hi Tracking-Mid Hybrid: Damage-Hi Range-Mid Tracking-Low
You seem to be missing many of the pro's and con's that need to be figured into balance. For example, choice of damage types, capacitor consumption, dps vs. alpha, and damage projection. Also, low tracking on blasters, that is your vision, really? Like lower than it is now, or do you find the already low tracking to be low enough? +1 for typing a lot of words, -2 because none of it is worth considering. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.15 12:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Low in comparison to the others. I know there are other considerations, and I can't honestly say what the exact best number ratio is, but in order to have a good balance each turret type needs to have strengths and weaknesses in relation to each other. That is an overly simplified model of what such a relation balance could be, but by no means is it all inclusive, or meant to be reflective of existing or future numbers so much as it is meant to aid in understanding my thought process.
Hybrids in general, that means between blasters and railguns, I believe should have high damage output, solid range, but not quite match the tracking speeds of projectiles, or the range of energy weapons. In terms of damage output they should lead the pack, but they need enough tracking to hit enemies at their moderate range, but won't hit as well as autocannons do at their ideal range. This is, in part, because minmatar ships are faster, and so they need more tracking to compensate.
So, I can't say for certain whether my proposal would increase or decrease tracking speeds on blasters, because I haven't run the numbers myself. But I can say that blasters AND railguns definitely need a bit more range to fit into their projected niche, possibly more damage too.
I hope all of that makes sense to you. |
Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
31
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Posted - 2011.10.15 18:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Disagree on boosted range on blasters. Gallente have traditionally been a 'get-in-your-face' and melt it kind of race, for the most part, or alternatively decent-damage-at-good-range with railguns. You can see that their e-war is designed to let them get in close - damps keep ships from kiting at range (though they just ended up being used by kiting ships, but that's another point) or let small ships get under the guns before they can get targeted, or alternatively let their snipers survive.
So, to maintain their racial flavor (I'm only talking about blasters at this point), Gallente need to keep their high DPS and be able to apply it. This means they need high DPS and tracking.
AC's don't really need tracking, the Winmatar playstyle is all about kiting where tracking is less relevant.
Given those considerations, the current metagame problem is that Gallente can't get in range and apply their damage. You can't make gallente ships faster, as that would infringe on Minmatar kiting paradigms.
Solution? Make Gallente faster, but only for a BRIEF period of time, either through bonuses to the overheated speed of MWD or bonuses to MWD speed boost and matching increases in MWD cap usage. And buff hybrid tracking so they do DPS if they get in range. In essence, let Minmatar be the endurance runners and Gallente be sprinters.
Results? Gallente ships can sprint to their targets, but if you can stay out of range of their initial rush, they can be kited successfully. In fleet combat, gallente ships can sprint from primary to primary using MWD bursts, but don't have the endurance for extended MWD usage.
And boost rails somehow, but I'm too lazy to think about that now. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
82
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Posted - 2011.10.15 18:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Samantha Tel'Vellor wrote: Hybrid: Damage-Hi Range-Mid Tracking-Low
no, quite wrong actually.
their damage should be very, very high, with very low range and average to high tracking. Blasters are about face-melting damage, if you manage to catch the target. For blasters, unlike all the other weapons, the damage projection should not be skills nor the guns, but the ships themselves. In real-world situations, this should equate in ships that are fast-ish, but suffer from agility problems, thus not impossible to avoid their "bull rush", buuuuut, may the gods help you if you're at web range or closer to one blaster ship, for no tank will be able to save you.
also, drone boats are fine. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Pidgeon Saissore
Hard Rock University Stealth Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2011.10.16 08:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
it's my understanding that the difference between blasters and railguns is more then the short and long range variants of the other turret types. Rails are med damage, long range, low tracking and blasters are high damage, short range, med tracking. Once the target is in range and webbed there's no beating a blaster and a railgun boat could just as easily keep extreme range using a mwd. Either way it is simply more specialized combat then other races weapons. |
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Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.16 08:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hmm, perhaps my balance model was a little too simple then, I'll consider expanding on it, you all make some solid points here.
Any additional thoughts on the other two points I posted in the original post? |
Shingorash
No.Mercy Merciless.
6
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Posted - 2011.10.16 11:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
To be honest just increasing the size of the drone bays on Gallente ships would be enough, you dont need to add more Drones just add better slot layouts.
Faster and less Agile is a good idea, if you gave the Myrm 125m3 drone bay and took it down to 4 guns, made it a little faster and less agile it would make more sense.
You could drop 2x web drones and 3x ogres and try to keep range.
Gallente ships on the whole are poor.
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Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.16 21:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
The problem with simply increasing drone bays, is that people are still going to want to maximize efficiency on specific drone types. I may have to try out using some varied types as is, and see if that works alright, but for the moment I still think adding drones controlled would be very interesting, and bring back some of the 'cool factor' of Gallente ships, which, while perhaps not as important an issue as mechanical balance, is still an issue that factors in. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2011.10.16 22:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
I find it interesting that when the subject of increasing the range on blasters comes up, people rail against it. And yet it seems that the range on other weapon systems have increased almost without notice. Pulse are 90% optimal. AC are 90% falloff. Blasters are some weird 30/70 split in the favor of falloff. Make it 50/50 to allow for DPS application and maybe extend the overall range by 10%.
I do like the suggestion above for the Gallente to have a 'sprint' mode. Maybe make Gallente ships resistant to damage when overheating. Give other races' ships their own racial flair. Lastly, while Gallente can't be as fast or as agile as Minmatar, they should be damn close - on their heels. |
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
4
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Posted - 2011.10.16 22:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think making their max speeds almost on par with Minmatar, but leaving their agility a bit poor, would work well for Gallente, and would involve only tweaking their ship attributes, not adding role bonuses to the ships and such for MWDs. On the other hand, you could also give them a bit of an MWD/AB boost by reducing their mass factor, or whatever it's called. |
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