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Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1177
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Posted - 2013.02.07 17:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm actually excited to see the industrials get role revamps!
I know it sounds silly, but when I first started EVE I was interested hauling and trading with a passion. When i got really into it, I realized I couldn't do what I really wanted to do with hauling at the time with the available hulls unfortunately. So, I moved on to a few other things. What I envisioned was a somewhat "Fly by the seat of your pants across the galaxy trader". With that in mind, I think a few different spins on the haulers really can be taken to make them fun for different players.
Here's some role ideas for the industrials.
Unlike the Mining barges' roles from "Heavy Tank", "Decent Tank VS Decent Mining", and "Great Mining" (procurer, retri, covetor) philosophy, the industrial roles can be more varied.
So, my idea is as follows : Excellent Hauler Role -- Self-Explanatory. Equivalent to the best haulers in the game right now, Mammoth, Iteron V, etc.
Evasion Hauler Role -- With the Venture setting the standard for +2 warp stabs on T1 ships, a basic warp stab bonus on these and fast and maneuverable, with low hit points and low hauling potential of like 7,000m3 tops, leaving the Blockade Runner and Transport ships to be much better options for the advanced hauler.
Combat Industrial Role -- I think we REALLY need a proper combat industrial. The industrial should be able to defend itself from a frigate or 2, somewhat like a cruiser in terms of strength and hit points. It can do like 100-200 DPS, have a solid tank and be relatively maneuverable. The hold wouldn't be huge, but big enough to do 3,000-5,000m3 of hauling of stuff - and be alright for moving through some space solo with a small chance of survival. They would kinda be like a Cruiser basically, with some short comings to not compete with the Cruisers themselves, and obviously not combat related bonuses. These would be good support logistics for combat operations or for transporting in low sec with the expectation that you will get engaged but you want to defend yourself rather than run away.
Since the Amarr/Caldari only have 2 roles for the ships below, if you want to add specific roles to the Amarr/Caldari you would need to add another hull or "Mark II" one of the existing hulls. I.e. Sigil Mark II, Badger Mark III Or just add completely new roles.
I don't know what to do with the 2 extra Iteron Hulls that don't fit into these roles. I think that's a pretty high level decision. But either duplicate roles for multiple combat ships or remove them.
My recommendations ::
Amarr : Bestower :: Excellent Hauler Sigil :: Evasion Hauler
Caldari: Badger :: Excellent Hauler Badger Mark ii :: Combat Hauler
Minmatar : Hoarder :: Combat Industrial Mammoth :: Excellent Hauler Wreathe :: Evasion Hauler
Gallente : Iteron :: Evasion Hauler Iteron Mark 2 :: ?? Iteron Mark 3 :: Combat Industrial Iteron Mark 4 :: ?? Iteron Mark 5 :: Excellent Hauler Where I am. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
93
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Posted - 2013.02.08 00:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nvm > https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2581193#post2581193 < Forgot about the role bonuses on the ships themselves. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
616
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Posted - 2013.02.08 00:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
ur combat industrial...fights like a combat ship but just not as good. so it still loses every fight it finds itself in. and because its specialised for combat and not a lol-tastic battle badger, ppl will never underestimate it. About as obvious and useful as the tank on a skiff.
as far as hauling in dangerous space goes, the evasion hauler would be the most sensible option and ur combat hauler would likely be relegated to afk hauler for its tank. and in that case, why bother with the DPS? just make it all tank.
the other two look fine tho. and the accessibility of all roles to all races doesn't screw anyone over. |
Galphii
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
113
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Posted - 2013.02.08 00:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I have a feeling a couple of those iteron hulls might be decommissioned permanently...
But good ideas here, there's a lot that can be done with industrials X |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1180
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Posted - 2013.02.08 00:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:ur combat industrial...fights like a combat ship but just not as good. so it still loses every fight it finds itself in. and because its specialised for combat and not a lol-tastic battle badger, ppl will never underestimate it. About as obvious and useful as the tank on a skiff.
as far as hauling in dangerous space goes, the evasion hauler would be the most sensible option and ur combat hauler would likely be relegated to afk hauler for its tank. and in that case, why bother with the DPS? just make it all tank.
the other two look fine tho. and the accessibility of all roles to all races doesn't screw anyone over.
It's not meant to win fights against cruisers, more like win fights against frigates/destroyers in the off chance that a light tackle gets on them or something like that. It gives it some teeth without being overpowered and enough tank to be useful as a combat transport without being too squishy.
Feel free to throw some other ideas out there, I'm just toying with the idea of industrials :)
Where I am. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1550
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Posted - 2013.02.08 01:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Amarr: 2 Industrials = Sigil, Bestower Caldari: 2 Industrials = Badger, Badger Mark II Gallente: 5 Industrials = Iteron I, Iteron II, Iteron III, Iteron IV, Iteron V Minmatar: 3 Industrials = Hoarder, Wreathe, Mammoth
Always seemed a little unbalanced. Especially as Caldari have the worst Industrials; at least Amarr Bestower was the largest low skill (level 1 - 3) Industrial.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1918
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Posted - 2013.02.08 01:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can see CCP doing to industrials what they did to mining barges.
1 for tanking (at the cost of cargo capacity and speed/evasion)
1 for cargo capacity (at the cost of tanking and speed/evasion)
1 for speed/evasion (at the cost of cargo capacity and tanking) Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
616
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Posted - 2013.02.08 01:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I can see CCP doing to industrials what they did to mining barges.
1 for tanking (at the cost of cargo capacity and speed/evasion)
1 for cargo capacity (at the cost of tanking and speed/evasion)
1 for speed/evasion (at the cost of cargo capacity and tanking)
agreed.
afk hauling instead of afk mining.
maxing capacity instead of maxing mining
evasion instead of tank. except the tank never worked as anything but an overcompensated anti-gank tool. even macks hardly get ganked as far as ive seen.
petal, when was the last time u saw a frig take on a skiff? every solo frig will simply disengage from any combat hauler, or never attack it in the first place. grouped frigs or cruisers on the other hand, would be largely unaffected by the haulers defences. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
279
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Posted - 2013.02.08 02:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
You can easily train into any racial hauler after the changes, so they may well decide to give certain special roles to a single racial hauler.
Remove insurance. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1180
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Posted - 2013.02.08 03:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: petal, when was the last time u saw a frig take on a skiff? every solo frig will simply disengage from any combat hauler, or never attack it in the first place. grouped frigs or cruisers on the other hand, would be largely unaffected by the haulers defences.
Well, the idea is it would be more than just "Tanky" is the point. It would have a LITTLE bit of teeth to make it more than just a hit point sink. If used in a fleet situation, it could haul stuff and add a little bit of punch to the field, so it's not just a "fly the cap booster truck", but maybe play a combat role in a larger fleet situation with battleships/cruisers. Will it get shot? probably. But it could also be useful for ancillary roles in fleet situations where haulers could be really useful, and don't really need 32930109 m3, but just need to carry more than a typical combat ship can do.
Where I am. |
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Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
421
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Posted - 2013.02.08 04:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually, you could have a model that paralleled the T1 logistics cruisers: Instead of having a decent sized cargo bay and massive rep capability, it would have a massive cargo bay and decent rep capability. Great for POS bashes, small gang roams with cap boosted ships, and other situations where you really want something with a significant cargo bay around. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries
297
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Posted - 2013.02.08 07:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
There are already 2 active Industrial threads regarding tiericide. Does no one use the search function any more? MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
628
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Posted - 2013.02.08 08:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:There are already 2 active Industrial threads regarding tiericide. Does no one use the search function any more?
What? Search? What is this Witchcraft!?
I seriously want a Transport ship with a 10k cargobay and a jump drive. Make me happy CCP. |
androch
Chillwater Ltd Persona Non Gratis
27
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Posted - 2013.02.08 10:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
what needs improvement? caldari haulers have the smallest holds but the best tank, minmatar have the largest cargoholds for the least training time, amarr... well nobody cares about those child molesters... and gallente take the most training and have the largest indi ships.... all of them are stepping stones to freighters and need no changes |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
306
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Posted - 2013.02.08 10:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
androch wrote:what needs improvement? caldari haulers have the smallest holds but the best tank, minmatar have the largest cargoholds for the least training time, amarr... well nobody cares about those child molesters... and gallente take the most training and have the largest indi ships.... all of them are stepping stones to freighters and need no changes
It's not necessarily improvement that is the goal of tiericide, but removing the stepping stones you speak of.
There's no reason to fly an iteron 1, 2, 3 or 4 once you can fly the iteron 5. Fozzie looks to change that, cuz he's the man, and that's what Fozzie does. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Fade 2 Black
362
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
A combat industrial ship could have a corporate/fleet hangar, and allot of tank, so people could take ammo, cap boosters, nanite, drones and other consumable goodies. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries
297
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:androch wrote:what needs improvement? caldari haulers have the smallest holds but the best tank, minmatar have the largest cargoholds for the least training time, amarr... well nobody cares about those child molesters... and gallente take the most training and have the largest indi ships.... all of them are stepping stones to freighters and need no changes It's not necessarily improvement that is the goal of tiericide, but removing the stepping stones you speak of. There's no reason to fly an iteron 1, 2, 3 or 4 once you can fly the iteron 5. Fozzie looks to change that, cuz he's the man, and that's what Fozzie does. The devblog posted yesterday stated that along with changes to the BC and destroyer skills, industrial ships skill needs will all be reduced to "racial industrial I", so ity 5s for everyone with a few minutes training.
That definitely says to me that roles will be given over to industrials by summer expansion release. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1180
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:A combat industrial ship could have a corporate/fleet hangar, and allot of tank, so people could take ammo, cap boosters, nanite, drones and other consumable goodies.
I kinda dig this idea.
Where I am. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1180
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:There are already 2 active Industrial threads regarding tiericide. Does no one use the search function any more?
I check the first 4-5 pages for a thread. Also, reading the other threads, I didn't like how the original poster presented the arguments, and wanted to start my own with my way of getting a thread going.
The first post is too detailed and too many numbers and specifics which frankly, CCP by experience doesn't really take to heart. I compare this to hiring an artist to make a portrait, then thinking you can tell him how to draw the portrait. Let them do their magic, and if you think a specific number needs a tweak, then they'll do it.
The second post lacked any direction.
I like some of the ideas coming from this thread already, i.e. the fleet hangar for the combat industrial.
Where I am. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries
298
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Posted - 2013.02.08 16:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote:There are already 2 active Industrial threads regarding tiericide. Does no one use the search function any more? I check the first 4-5 pages for a thread. Also, reading the other threads, I didn't like how the original poster presented the arguments, and wanted to start my own with my way of getting a thread going. The first post is too detailed and too many numbers and specifics which frankly, CCP by experience doesn't really take to heart. I compare this to hiring an artist to make a portrait, then thinking you can tell him how to draw the portrait. Let them do their magic, and if you think a specific number needs a tweak, then they'll do it. The second post lacked any direction. I like some of the ideas coming from this thread already, i.e. the fleet hangar for the combat industrial. Don't get me wrong, your OP is certainly the best presented out of them, I was pointing out that this is the third Industrial Tiericide thread.
The core your idea makes a lot sense. Those 3 core roles are spot on, without taking anything away from the T2 transports.
Not sure about a dedicated combat indy ship. The concept just doesn't seem to gel right. Now, repurposing an industrial ship for gang support works for me, especialy if this can be done with specialised modules, (industrial/transport only modules?) Things like a low slot module that can convert 10,000m3 of cargo space into a 5,000m3 corp/fleet hanger. Perhaps one that allows for a refitting service when combined with said corp/fleet hanger. Hell, maybe even a module similar to a Command Processor, allowing unbonused link usage. I would love a mod that grants tackle bonuses, imagine a Battle Badger with +10% per level to webs and/or points... MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
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Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1181
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Posted - 2013.02.08 17:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote: Not sure about a dedicated combat indy ship. The concept just doesn't seem to gel right. Now, repurposing an industrial ship for gang support works for me, especialy if this can be done with specialised modules, (industrial/transport only modules?) Things like a low slot module that can convert 10,000m3 of cargo space into a 5,000m3 corp/fleet hanger. Perhaps one that allows for a refitting service when combined with said corp/fleet hanger. Hell, maybe even a module similar to a Command Processor, allowing unbonused link usage. I would love a mod that grants tackle bonuses, imagine a Battle Badger with +10% per level to webs and/or points...
This kind of sounds like you want a T3 industrial. Which would be really cool tbh. But seems low likelihood in this case.
I like the idea of a module converting m3 to fleet hangars or such.
Focusing on the combat transport, I think a combat hauler opens up the opportunity for more flexible fits in general for industrials. Rather than just being a hauler, or a "runner", you can set it up for fleets, or for solo, or whatever. I mean, the point of any ship is flexibility in how you want to set it up.
Even with the "Excellent Hauler" role and the "Evasive Hauler" role, there should be multiple ways to configure it. Unlike today, we are in a situation where you fly (for T1) : A Mammoth with max cargo expanders. Or an Itty V with max cargo expanders (or whatever with max expanders). Occassionally, you may want to tweak that module for more inertia stabs, etc... but it's not really going to be a "successful" fit.
I'd like to see more options for successful fits for haulers that don't rely purely on "Max cargohold expander ii".
As I go through the ideas, honestly, I actually really think that the Fleet Hangar idea is a really good way to go with these industrials because you can put a "hard max" on space without cargohold expanders becoming a necessity. I think that's where industrials really need to be. So an Itty V with 30-40km3 can be set a unmodifiable "fleet hangar" of 30km3. And then have about 5000m3 of normal storage that can be either "Expanded" or used for more flexible fitting arrangements.
In other words, why do I HAVE to trick out cargohold expanders in my hauler for it to do its job the best that it can? I think that's the message I'm getting here. Where I am. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1181
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Posted - 2013.02.11 18:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Any other thoughts on the Industrial revamp?
Where I am. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
634
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Posted - 2013.02.11 21:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
this guy's |
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