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Kimball Bergbau
Gallifrey Resources
0
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
IIRC, before retribution was released it was against the rules to can bait rookies in a rookie system.
With suspect flags as they are, I see in all gallente rookie systems people sitting on the undock in T1 frigates/cruisers (occasionally T2) with suspect flags. Just sat there. Is this considered noob baiting too (and thus an actual offense)? |
Whitehound
717
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
What did he do besides blinking at you? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Kimball Bergbau
Gallifrey Resources
0
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
To me, nothing personally. However I have seen occasional rookies engage these pilots. Moments later, they don't have a ship. |
Whitehound
717
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kimball Bergbau wrote:To me, nothing personally. However I have seen occasional rookies engage these pilots. Moments later, they don't have a ship. So they only attacked and got shot down? There was no bait'n'switch tactic used?
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
baltec1
Bat Country
5114
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Go kill them. |
Kimball Bergbau
Gallifrey Resources
0
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Kimball Bergbau wrote:To me, nothing personally. However I have seen occasional rookies engage these pilots. Moments later, they don't have a ship. So they only attacked and got shot down? There was no bait'n'switch tactic used?
Bait and switch isn't the query here. I am only asking if the punishment of can baiting of old in rookie systems has been reciprocated in light of the newer crimewatch mechanics. It's still rookie systems, still with people making themselves open to attack from rookies (via theft from a can, though not necessarily the rookie's can) before blowing them up. |
Eurydia Vespasian
Nova Insula Mining and Industrial
962
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
it's optional to attack a blinker that's done nothing towards you.
it's different if something is actually being stolen in the process. |
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2721
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Some of these actually get recruited after losing their ships. Works for can-baiting in belts too.
Not saying that there aren't any morons blowing them up for fun, though.
Anyhow, i suggest gathering a few dozen noobs and simple dealing with them ... Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7108
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Still, stealing a can would blinky you doesn't mean someone got baited etc...
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Whitehound
717
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kimball Bergbau wrote:Whitehound wrote:Kimball Bergbau wrote:To me, nothing personally. However I have seen occasional rookies engage these pilots. Moments later, they don't have a ship. So they only attacked and got shot down? There was no bait'n'switch tactic used? Bait and switch isn't the query here. I am only asking if the punishment of can baiting of old in rookie systems has been reciprocated in light of the newer crimewatch mechanics. It's still rookie systems, still with people making themselves open to attack from rookies (via theft from a can, though not necessarily the rookie's can) before blowing them up. I cannot imagine that a standard attack on a suspect player within a rookie system could ever be turned into baiting. It is an obvious mechanic now and there is no "free stuff here"-can that tries to rick a noob into a fight he might not want. The noob will have to engage the suspect player. PvP simply does not get more consensual than this. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
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Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
159
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hmm...that only applies if the player is aware of and has an indepth understanding of the new mechanics. I'll go out on a limb here and state that most rookies won't.
So yeah, a GM clarifying this issue would probably be appreciated, the way it sounds to me right now is basically like this:
Suspect tank at your porch, you shoot it with your handgun, it shoots you with its smoothbore. Predefined outcome galore. |
stoicfaux
2322
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sentries at stations in rookie systems should engage those with suspect flags?
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1052
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Sentries at stations in rookie systems should engage those with suspect flags? Boy, that would suck for the budding thief... If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
stoicfaux
2322
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Sentries at stations in rookie systems should engage those with suspect flags? Boy, that would suck for the budding thief... And would potentially give them a false sense of security when outside of rookie systems.
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Demolishar
United Aggression
794
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. BUT: If they subscribe even once using PLEX or GTC, that status is gone forever. And they retain the "can't use contracts" limitation of the trial (wouldn't want them to get scammed now, would we?) And they can't use "give money" cause they might try to double their isk. And they can't leave highsec.
Let them opt out at any time, too. So long as they're paying cash subscriptions rather than increasing the PLEX price, I have no problem with pvp-phobic non-content-creating carebears. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
437
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Suspect flag= unable to dock in empire.
FW=unable to dock at enemy faction space stations.
2 problems solved. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Braxus Deninard
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
99
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. BUT: If they subscribe even once using PLEX or GTC, that status is gone forever. And they retain the "can't use contracts" limitation of the trial (wouldn't want them to get scammed now, would we?) And they can't use "give money" cause they might try to double their isk. And they can't leave highsec.
Let them opt out at any time, too. So long as they're paying cash subscriptions rather than increasing the PLEX price, I have no problem with pvp-phobic non-content-creating carebears.
Nah not a good idea at all, protected noob status shouldn't exist. The message needs to be made as clear as possible, as early as possible, that the game is harsh and unforgiving when it comes to your actions.
If you introduce "protected noob" status, even less trial and new players are going to try their hand at PvP, so instead they'll flock to boring things like mining, where they quickly burn out due to the grinding aspect, and subsequently they will quit the game.
The current system is fine when it comes to baiting newbies, although it would be nice to have clarification on this issue. |
Cannibal Kane
The African Terrorist
1404
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
if I am not mistaken a GM did say that making use of suspect flag in rookie system to get newbies to attack you is baiting.
To be honest I don't feel like searching for who said that because I do not believe common sense needs to be explained. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
253
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:if I am not mistaken a GM did say that making use of suspect flag in rookie system to get newbies to attack you is baiting.
To be honest I don't feel like searching for who said that because I do not believe common sense needs to be explained.
This is correct. HOWEVER, if you do not touch the rookies, but only attack the older players who shoot you, you are doing nothing wrong. While CCP refuses to identify rookies, I'd suggest that you don't shoot unless the player attacking you is a minimum of one month old. |
Kimball Bergbau
Gallifrey Resources
0
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Posted - 2013.02.10 20:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
That post dates back to June but has a clear enough message that still applies. If I see a rookie taken out (2 weeks or younger going by the GM's notion of "barely a week in") then I know what to do.
Thanks Adriel Malakai |
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
203
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Posted - 2013.02.10 20:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
I don't see why people get upset about killing rookies. Their free ships are quite good now, they won't have any losses from being podded. There's almost nothing at stake for them at that point. Good way to learn a simple lesson of being careful what you shoot at. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3792
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Posted - 2013.02.10 20:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Newbies shold learn lessons without too many parachutes and pampers.
- They learn from mistakes fast if they hurt their nose and losing a 100k ISK ship early is better than becoming an idiot losing a 3B pimpboat later.
- They learn that EvE is a cold, harsh universe, not just a marketing label.
- They learn to not fly what they can't afford to lose and that there are more malign entities than rats out there. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
717
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. ... You do have this. It is the state you are in after you entered your password and before choosing your character. There is your immunity. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
205
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Demolishar wrote:Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. ... You do have this. It is the state you are in after you entered your password and before choosing your character. There is your immunity.
They also gain permanent pvp immunity once they're podkilled. Removable only by pressing undock. |
stoicfaux
2324
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Newbies shold learn lessons without too many parachutes and pampers.
- They learn from mistakes fast if they hurt their nose and losing a 100k ISK ship early is better than becoming an idiot losing a 3B pimpboat later.
- They learn that EvE is a cold, harsh universe, not just a marketing label.
- They learn to not fly what they can't afford to lose and that there are more malign entities than rats out there. I disagree for several reasons, which primarily center on the fact that there are more WoW type players than there are "PvP is a harsh, dark mistress; spank me harder" type players.
1) Eve is a complex game. High-sec PvP mechanics are still pretty complex and don't follow the "standard" paradigm of "this is a PvP zone and this is a non-PvP zone." Baiting a newbie who's still trying to figure out the *INTERFACE*, navigation, the market, what a Merlin is, how skills work, fittings, etc.., is a bit overwhelming and unfair.
I'm not saying that the "Eve is a cold harsh universe" message shouldn't be made abundantly clear, I'm just saying that new players really need an opportunity to learn the basic mechanics of a game, i.e. give them a chance to stand up before they get knocked down.
2) De-programming WoW players. CCP needs to de-program carebear/PvP-lite newbies who visit from other games. Dumping a bucket of ice cold PvP on a WoW refugee may drive that newbie away. Instead of dumping the frog WoW newbie straight into the boiling water, let's all just pretend it's a jacuzzi for a little while before we start adding the vegetables.
3) Spawn Camping is lame (in most games.) Spawn Camping newbies is even worse if it drives customers away by giving the false impression that your MMO is nothing more than a bunch of "high-level" players ganking newbies all day. You first need to allow newbies to see the possibilities the sandbox has to offer before poking them in the eyes. Otherwise they won't come back.
Eve isn't like other games and requires learning new paradigms and unlearning assumptions and play-styles specific to other MMOs. Ganking newbies before they can see Eve's potential is self-defeating. |
Whitehound
718
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
We might as well accuse CONCORD for baiting. Or where is the difference here:
1) Player locks onto and shoots at a blinking yellow space ship, and gets killed.
2) Player locks onto and shoots at a CONCORD ship, and gets killed. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
437
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Saddest part of this game is players that are so bad, they need to pick on brand new players......
The single biggest danger to EVE is the proliferation of ALTS! Kill an alt today!
Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
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Ayvonne Corlinn
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:We might as well accuse CONCORD for baiting. Or where is the difference here:
1) Player locks onto and shoots at a blinking yellow space ship, and gets killed.
2) Player locks onto and shoots at a CONCORD ship, and gets killed. I would have thought a 4-year-old player could see the MASSIVE difference:
1) Legal target - can be engaged by anyone.
2) Illegal target that can't be engaged without deliberately setting the security button to make it possible. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
205
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Stoicfaux, you know the concept of flashy yellow baiting exists in WoW too. Fly to the opposing faction's newbie zone, flag self for pvp, wait for hapless newbie to attack you, stomp them.
And the overall consequences of them dying is pretty much just as small. |
stoicfaux
2333
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Posted - 2013.02.11 02:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Stoicfaux, you know the concept of flashy yellow baiting exists in WoW too. Fly to the opposing faction's newbie zone, flag self for pvp, wait for hapless newbie to attack you, stomp them. Eh, it's not the same, IME. The sides are clearly defined (Alliance v Horde,) there is no death penalty (either a minor repair bill or, as a newbie, you'll get new gear via questing,) folks tend to band together when a side invades the newbie zone, etc..
Quote:And the overall consequences of them dying is pretty much just as small. Not even close. If an Eve newbie loses his ship, he's not necessarily going to have the means to replace it even with the start-up funds and assets provided by the NPE missions.
But the biggest death penalty for a newbie in Eve is the time it takes to get and outfit a replacement ship. A WoW refugee is used to just jumping back in after a negligible death penalty. An Eve newbie has to figure out how to *get* and then fit a replacement ship. In a hostile marketplace. And determine what to do with it, now that he realizes he probably cannot afford random PvP.
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