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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
317
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Posted - 2013.02.11 06:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:RubyPorto wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I was going to put this in an edit, but you replied as I was writing it:
Also, I'm not sure what that even means, that crosstraining is speedy when you have the first chain of turret skills. Using the same 1800 sp/hr character, training T2 rails after training T2 blasters takes just over 20 days. Training T2 cruise after training T2 torps takes just over 29 days. Not a significant difference when you consider ALL missiles to T2 takes 112 days, whereas training only hybrids, all to T2, takes 100 days. Crosstraining would be: I want T2 Blasters and T2 Pulse vs I want T2 Torps and T2 Blasters. Going between Turret based weapon systems is quick. Crossing in from Missiles takes a long time (believe me, I've been there). Especially once you start looking at all the support skills. From scratch, 79d 12h to large blaster specialization 1. From there, roughly 61d, 12h to large pulse laser specialization 1. The overlap between these two is a rank 1 skill and a rank 2 skill both trained to 5. Roughly 18 days. 141 days total for small blaster spec 4, medium blaster spec 4, large blaster spec 1, small pulse spec 4, medium pulse spec 4, and large pulse spec 5. If we could somehow pull out spec 2-4 from the smalls and mediums, we'd get a reduction of about 16 days, for a training time of 125 days. Small, medium, and large spec 1 for both blasters and pulse lasers in 125 days. Compared to 112 days for every single missile launcher: rockets, light missiles, rapid light missiles, heavy missiles, heavy assault missiles, torpedoes, and cruise missiles. Let's throw in bombs as well. Six turrets: 125 days. I still have 18 more left to train. Eight launchers: 115 days. I have every missile system.
Turrent support skill VS missile support skill. Did you take those disparity into account? The fact that you support 3 weapon system with a single set of skill compared to only 1 system? There is value in that too. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3844
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Posted - 2013.02.11 06:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sorry, meant 12 more on the turrets, not 18.
Turret support skills, all of them, take 106 days, one of which benefits only two platforms (controlled bursts is entirely useless for projectiles) and three of which have more of an effect on some types than others: trajectory analysis isn't very helpful for lasers, whereas sharpshooter isn't a big deal for blasters or autocannons. Motion prediction could also be said to be less helpful for pulse lasers than it is for blasters and autocannons, and it's almost not worth talking about for beams, artillery, or railguns.
All of the missile skills, which take 112 days, have roughly equal effects on their respective systems. The effect is more even. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
97
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Posted - 2013.02.11 06:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
I definitely support this. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2655
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Once again, you're ignoring the built in training of support skills to turret training and the fact that all gunnery support skills (save Controlled Bursts) apply to all turret weapons while no missile support skill translates anywhere outside of missiles.
Missiles are a class of weapon, the training equivalent of Hybrids. As you noted above, it takes longer to train all Missiles than all Hybrids. Saying "just hybrids" as if missiles should be the training equivalent of all turrets (3 classes) is ridiculous.
Missiles take longer to train to completion, but can be trained piecemeal. Turrets take less time to train to completion, have common support skills (allowing for quick crosstraining between weapon classes), but have to be trained in order. You can also train all T1 turrets of a class far faster than all T1 missiles to the same skill level. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
739
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
james makes a good point, but so does ruby.
YOU GUYS STOP MAKING SENSE AND START THROWING MONKEY POO AT EACH OTHER! [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Kate stark
71
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
keep the training times roughly the same, however make the prerequisites make more sense. remove the need for smaller weapon specialisation, and increase the support skills required.
this will end up like training for a freighter under the new system. might take you a bit longer to train your first set of t2 large guns, but every set after will take less time to train for due to shared prerequisites that make sense.
yes/no? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3846
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
He does make good points. What if we increased the rank of the T1 turret skills and T2 turret skills? This would, at 1800 sp/hr, this would increase the training time for each skill to 5 by 6 days (4 days at 2700 sp/hr) For example if we increased by 1, Small Turret would be rank 2, Medium Turret would be rank 4, and Large Turret would be rank 6. Small spec would be rank 4, medium spec would be rank 6, large spec would be rank 9.
And THEN we removed the requirement for spec 4 of the lower turrets to be trained for T2 medium and large. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3849
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
If I want to skill straight to T2 large pulse under the current system, I would have to train: Gunnery 3 through 5 Motion Prediction 1 through 5 Small Energy Turret 4 and 5 (rank 1) Small Pulse Laser Specialization 1 through 4 Medium Energy Turret 1 through 5 (rank 3) Medium Pulse Laser Spec 1 through 4 Large Energy Turret 1 through 5
This takes 80 days.
Under my system, if I want to skill straight to T2 large pulse lasers, I would have to train: Gunnery 3 through 5 Motion Prediction 1 through 5 Small Energy Turret 1 through 3 (now rank 2) Medium Energy Turret 1 through 3 (now rank 4) Large Energy Turret 1 through 5 (now rank 6)
Small Energy Turret takes twice as long to go from 1 through 3, so originally taking 4 hours 25 minutes it now takes ~9 hours Medium Energy Turret takes 4/3 as long to go from 1 through 3, so originally taking 13 hours 20 minutes it now takes 17.75 hours Large Energy Turret takes 6/5 as long to go from 1 through 5, so originally taking 29 days 15 hours it now takes 35 days, 13 hours
Motion Prediction 1 through 5 and gunnery 3 through 5 take 17 days, 17 hours.
9 hours + 17.75 hours + 35 days 13 hours + 17 days 17 hours = ~54 days, 8 hours. This seems fair considering how much longer it would take to skill everything to its max than before. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
March rabbit
player corp n1
521
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's probably too early to say this, but I'm surprised there hasn't been more objection. Had I or any other goon posted this, people would've objected because goons. James is already "semi goon" so you are wrong here.
Actually it not about "goons". It's about ideas and style. Goons ideas are mostly stupid "kill all miners" and your style sucks "high-sec pubbies". That's why you rarely get support. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3850
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
tl;dr because nobody wants to read that ******* wall of MATH:
Training large pulse spec 1:
- Old way: 79 days
- New way: 54 days
That's nice, isn't it?
However, there's a drawback Training all lasers to lowest possible specs that get you all T2 currently takes 99 days, getting you small spec 4, medium spec 4, and large spec 1 Under this plan it would take 100 days, however you would only get small spec 1, medium spec 1, and large spec 1.
Training all size lasers both beam and pulse to T2:
- Old way: 99 days
- New way: 100 days
However old way gets you spec 4 of the medium and small, whereas the new way gets you spec 1 only
Training large pulse spec 4:
- Old way: 87 days
- New way: 63 days
What does this mean!? MORE INCENTIVE TO SPECIALIZE Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1378
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
all you people wanting faster training frankly dont get it... EVE should not be about faster and easier rewards, it's not that game.
even hypothetically if CCP did make these changes, they'd need to put in more pre requs to make the training time the same, just like theyre doing with capitals.
on a separate note, apart from pure capital alts, there arent any people who should be going straight to large guns without training the smaller ones first and given only long term players with several accounts are going to be training dedicated capital alts, the whole 'catching up' argument is actually the reverse; these changes would just let the older players train alts faster. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
257
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
This is a good idea. It can be applied further.
This could get messy and take a long time. But think how quickly new players will be able to train up if they just specialize. I think it's a good thing for the game. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3850
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:all you people wanting faster training frankly dont get it... EVE should not be about faster and easier rewards, it's not that game.
even hypothetically if CCP did make these changes, they'd need to put in more pre requs to make the training time the same, just like theyre doing with capitals.
on a separate note, apart from pure capital alts, there arent any people who should be going straight to large guns without training the smaller ones first and given only long term players with several accounts are going to be training dedicated capital alts, the whole 'catching up' argument is actually the reverse; these changes would just let the older players train alts faster.
Read my previous post, because what I've done is made individual skills faster to get to while overall increasing the training time. Not getting everything faster.
More examples to come. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3851
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
If I want to get spec 4 small, medium, and large pulse, then I would have to follow the same training plan that you do now.
Gunnery to 5 Motion Prediction to 5 Small, medium, large energy weapon to 5 Small, medium, large pulse spec to 4
This takes 87 days to do currently.
If you wanted to do the same under my plan, this would actually take longer: 18 days longer for small, medium, and large energy weapon to 5, and 3.2 days longer for small, medium, and large pulse spec to 4. So what took 87 days before now takes 108 days.
It's not making everything faster. It's encouraging people to specialize and helping them do that instead of forcing them to train everything to get to what they want. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Whitehound
719
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 13:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
While I get the general idea of the suggestion is it against the current trend.
Having small and medium hybrid weapons as a prerequisite for large hybrid weapons means to accelerate the skill training for those who choose the hybrid weapons path and to slow down cross-training of weapons.
CCP have already said they want less cross-training, which is why we are now getting more racial ship skills.
And this should really be in Features and Ideas Discussion. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2013.02.11 13:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:all you people wanting faster training frankly dont get it... EVE should not be about faster and easier rewards, it's not that game.
even hypothetically if CCP did make these changes, they'd need to put in more pre requs to make the training time the same, just like theyre doing with capitals.
on a separate note, apart from pure capital alts, there arent any people who should be going straight to large guns without training the smaller ones first and given only long term players with several accounts are going to be training dedicated capital alts, the whole 'catching up' argument is actually the reverse; these changes would just let the older players train alts faster.
I agree, making more fundamental changes to the skill system is opening a can of worms, and although it seems like a good idea where do you stop? In an ideal world I agree CCP should scrap the entire skill system and start from scratch. But we are where we are now, and making so many fundamental changes to the skill system will really start to annoy people who spend a lot of time planning out skill training plans. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2102
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 13:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3855
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
Well I suppose that was inevitable. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
11
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
I support OPs idea but on 1 condition: separate long and short range turret skills.
small autocannon (3) > med autocannon (3) > large autocannon (5) > large autocannon spec if you want to train for T2 large ACs small railguns (3) > med railguns (3) > large railguns (5) > large railguns spec if you want to train for T2 large rails.
some adjustment to rank of skills/requirements might be needed to compensate overall increase of training time, but it will make more sense and (almost) in line with missile training. It will make specialization on preferred weapon system/size much easier while training for all weapons much longer. |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
I think that spec should take 5 but next sized gun should take 4 There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3858
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 15:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:I support OPs idea but on 1 condition: separate long and short range turret skills.
small autocannon (3) > med autocannon (3) > large autocannon (5) > large autocannon spec if you want to train for T2 large ACs small railguns (3) > med railguns (3) > large railguns (5) > large railguns spec if you want to train for T2 large rails.
some adjustment to rank of skills/requirements might be needed to compensate overall increase of training time, but it will make more sense and (almost) in line with missile training. It will make specialization on preferred weapon system/size much easier while training for all weapons much longer (training for both short and long range versions of same weapon platform should take longer than in takes to train unified skill now). Could be interesting. I cbf to do the math on these but it sounds like it could work.
Acac Sunflyier wrote:I think that spec should take 5 but next sized gun should take 4 I'm not sure what you mean? Please elaborate. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Super spikinator
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:13:00 -
[52] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I suppose that was inevitable. It was all that math, you scared the poor souls who look after GD.
I like your suggestion though, even though I don't fly anything bigger than a cruiser I can see the problem people have currently to get to tech 2 large turrets. And with the changes to the skill tree with respect to some of the T2 and T1 hulls it will probably end in the very soon(tm) basket. |
Luc Chastot
Aliastra Gallente Federation
204
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:19:00 -
[53] - Quote
Unnecessary time sinks could be replaced by other support skills, like Surgical Strike and Controlled Bursts. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
632
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Posted - 2013.02.11 16:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
Well if we want to make it 'fair' then we need to make 3 completely separate sets of support skills that only apply to one of the gunnery trees, and we need to separate 'small projectile turret' into 'small auto cannon' and 'small artillery' skills.
Are you sure you want this to be 'fair'? Because with the added ability to specialise easily, you also get the downsides.
Do you realise that you are asking for an huge NERF to gunnery by asking for 'fairness'? |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 17:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:I support OPs idea but on 1 condition: separate long and short range turret skills.
small autocannon (3) > med autocannon (3) > large autocannon (5) > large autocannon spec if you want to train for T2 large ACs small railguns (3) > med railguns (3) > large railguns (5) > large railguns spec if you want to train for T2 large rails.
some adjustment to rank of skills/requirements might be needed to compensate overall increase of training time, but it will make more sense and (almost) in line with missile training. It will make specialization on preferred weapon system/size much easier while training for all weapons much longer (training for both short and long range versions of same weapon platform should take longer than in takes to train unified skill now). Could be interesting. I cbf to do the math on these but it sounds like it could work. Acac Sunflyier wrote:I think that spec should take 5 but next sized gun should take 4 I'm not sure what you mean? Please elaborate.
I meant for larges to x-large There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
bardaq
e X i l e Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 17:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
I kinda agrea with the OP.
For me the naming convention makes it feel awkard to change the system. The current naming; small, med then large kinda emply you need the smaller guns before you can use med, then large.
Perhaps change the naming of the turrets to somethign like - Support Class, assault class and seige class or Frig, cruiser and BS. Can't really think of anything snappy right now but I imagin you get the idea.
I for one have no use for small turrets of any kind as like my cruser class too much. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:50:00 -
[57] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Well if we want to make it 'fair' then we need to make 3 completely separate sets of support skills that only apply to one of the gunnery trees, and we need to separate 'small projectile turret' into 'small auto cannon' and 'small artillery' skills.
Are you sure you want this to be 'fair'? Because with the added ability to specialise easily, you also get the downsides.
Do you realise that you are asking for an huge NERF to gunnery by asking for 'fairness'?
I sure do. We do need to separate projectile/energy/hybrid weapon skills to make things fair if there is a change for easier specialization for turret skills. Still no need to make duplicates of support imo. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
695
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
Torps take less time to train because they suck. If gun training were to be the same, you should un-suck missiles first. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3863
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
I'm sure CCP has weapons on the table for balancing. They're probably planning on looking over all modules. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
220
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 19:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:tl;dr because nobody wants to read that ******* wall of MATH:Training large pulse spec 1:
- Old way: 79 days
- New way: 54 days
That's nice, isn't it? However, there's a drawback Training all lasers to lowest possible specs that get you all T2 currently takes 99 days, getting you small spec 4, medium spec 4, and large spec 1 Under this plan it would take 100 days, however you would only get small spec 1, medium spec 1, and large spec 1. Training all size lasers both beam and pulse to T2:
- Old way: 99 days
- New way: 100 days
However old way gets you spec 4 of the medium and small, whereas the new way gets you spec 1 only Training large pulse spec 4:
- Old way: 87 days
- New way: 63 days
What does this mean!? MORE INCENTIVE TO SPECIALIZE Look this kind of smart ideas are bad for eve, if people keep reading stuff like this, they might eventually start thinking and that will make my job harder, stop making smart ideas! |
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