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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Marcus Gord
Ghost Festival Naraka.
16
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Posted - 2013.02.11 21:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Something that has bothered me for a long time, but has never been explained, is why do different sized guns in the same category, use the same ammo? I understand why from a gameplay point of view, it's simpler, but in-universe, it makes no sense.
800mm and 1400mms using the same ammo, for example? |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
468
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Posted - 2013.02.11 23:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Marcus Gord wrote:Something that has bothered me for a long time, but has never been explained, is why do different sized guns in the same category, use the same ammo? I understand why from a gameplay point of view, it's simpler, but in-universe, it makes no sense.
800mm and 1400mms using the same ammo, for example?
could be something to do with ...
wumbo |
Copper Rei
Copper Corp
30
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Posted - 2013.02.12 00:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Perhaps if it were listed as a raw material that was shaped by the weapon system...like a garnular power that when compacted in the weapon hardened to specified density such as lead or had trace elements of uranium. This would explain why the medium size granule compound fits in the medium weapons loading mechanism and shapes to varying size rounds etc.... I think it is the picture or icon they use of a typical "round" or "shell" that is throwing you off. |
Copper Rei
Copper Corp
30
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Posted - 2013.02.12 00:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Or it could be the Wumbo....Dunno!?! |
Catalina Stygal
Legio de Praetorum
0
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Posted - 2013.02.12 00:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Marcus Gord wrote:Something that has bothered me for a long time, but has never been explained, is why do different sized guns in the same category, use the same ammo? I understand why from a gameplay point of view, it's simpler, but in-universe, it makes no sense.
800mm and 1400mms using the same ammo, for example?
While they use the same ammo type I would imagine that the ammo would be bigger or smaller depending on the actual turret itself. It's just simpler than having several different ammo types based on the size of the gun youre using. None of the other races would really be affected by it but on the minmatar side youd have at least double the ammo to make,sell, and buy than you do now.
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Horatius Caul
Kitzless
205
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Posted - 2013.02.12 01:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Catalina Stygal wrote:Marcus Gord wrote:Something that has bothered me for a long time, but has never been explained, is why do different sized guns in the same category, use the same ammo? I understand why from a gameplay point of view, it's simpler, but in-universe, it makes no sense.
800mm and 1400mms using the same ammo, for example? While they use the same ammo type I would imagine that the ammo would be bigger or smaller depending on the actual turret itself. It's just simpler than having several different ammo types based on the size of the gun youre using. None of the other races would really be affected by it but on the minmatar side youd have at least double the ammo to make,sell, and buy than you do now. Or CCP could rename the modules to only have three/four mm sizes or remove the mm sizes entirely. Amarrad - Amarr language project |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2112
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Jove. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
319
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's probably some timey wimey thingy that goes "Ding!" when there's stuff. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1496
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
scrapmetal + ducktape + ammo = all you need a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
39
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Posted - 2013.02.12 21:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, based on the volumes given for a single round of ammo... it comes in flat-pack form. The loading time is how long it takes to unpack the box.
Arty shells, of course, require much more assembly, which is whey they take so long between individual shells. |
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Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
230
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Posted - 2013.02.17 14:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Here's a thought: when you buy ammo, you aren't actually buying a full shell, you are buying a nano-pack along with various rare materials. On your ship, raw (essentially free) materials like iron and sulfur and etc are then provided to the nano-packs, which then assemble the shells in the loading queue, using the raw materials and the rare materials/components included with the nano-pack. Since an autocannon fires a few shells with each shot, and an artillery cannon fires one large shell, the nano-pack for each is essentially the same size for a certain size class of gun.
How's that? |
Esna Pitoojee
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
246
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Posted - 2013.02.17 19:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
I've been toying with the idea as well that the various millimeter designations do not represent barrel or breach diameter, but rather some other figure - perhaps the length of the firing chamber, the diameter of the conductive elements in a Railgun, etc. |
Saul Elsyn
Sturmvogel Squadron
58
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Posted - 2013.02.17 19:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Or... since the tech level that EVE uses is way out there... each unit of ammunition represents the raw materials of the 'shell' which is assembled during the loading process. So for projectile weapons it'd be propellant, brass that is manufactured into a casing, and the actual shell's components ranging from plasma to fissionable materials and so forth.
For hybrid charges, it's probably a solid block of iron, lead, uranium, or plutonium cut, shaped, and compressed to the proper size when loaded in the gun. The only odd ball there is antimatter... which has to be contained somehow. |
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
40
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Posted - 2013.02.17 22:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vikarion wrote:Here's a thought: when you buy ammo, you aren't actually buying a full shell, you are buying a nano-pack along with various rare materials. On your ship, raw (essentially free) materials like iron and sulfur and etc are then provided to the nano-packs, which then assemble the shells in the loading queue, using the raw materials and the rare materials/components included with the nano-pack. Since an autocannon fires a few shells with each shot, and an artillery cannon fires one large shell, the nano-pack for each is essentially the same size for a certain size class of gun.
How's that?
what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell.
The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing.
which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition.
Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile. Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/ |
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CCP Falcon
2358
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Posted - 2013.02.18 00:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:Vikarion wrote:Here's a thought: when you buy ammo, you aren't actually buying a full shell, you are buying a nano-pack along with various rare materials. On your ship, raw (essentially free) materials like iron and sulfur and etc are then provided to the nano-packs, which then assemble the shells in the loading queue, using the raw materials and the rare materials/components included with the nano-pack. Since an autocannon fires a few shells with each shot, and an artillery cannon fires one large shell, the nano-pack for each is essentially the same size for a certain size class of gun.
How's that? what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell. The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing. which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition. Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile.
This is the most logical explantion for it, without a doubt.
I really shoud finish up a lot of the tech stuff I've written over the years. There was a big section on weapons, ammunition, charges and all manner of things. CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
63
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Posted - 2013.02.18 02:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
@CCP Falcon: yes, pwease? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
358
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Posted - 2013.02.18 06:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Antimatter Ammo explains it nicely.
"Consists of two components: a shell of titanium and a core of antimatter atoms suspended in plasma state. Railguns launch the shell directly, while particle blasters pump the plasma into a cyclotron and process the plasma into a bolt that is then fired."
In the case of different sizes of railguns, a bigger railgun would have the power to fire a projectile with more force, giving greater range and damage with the same projectile. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
358
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Posted - 2013.02.18 06:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
On that note, I think I found a typo.
Iridium Ammo: "20% reduced optimal range. 24% reduced capacitor need."
Range bonus 20 %
Clearly I can't be the first to notice this? |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
597
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Posted - 2013.02.18 08:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:Vikarion wrote:Here's a thought: when you buy ammo, you aren't actually buying a full shell, you are buying a nano-pack along with various rare materials. On your ship, raw (essentially free) materials like iron and sulfur and etc are then provided to the nano-packs, which then assemble the shells in the loading queue, using the raw materials and the rare materials/components included with the nano-pack. Since an autocannon fires a few shells with each shot, and an artillery cannon fires one large shell, the nano-pack for each is essentially the same size for a certain size class of gun.
How's that? what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell. The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing. which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition. Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile.
Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
375
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Posted - 2013.02.18 11:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
In the 20th century they had this amazing stuff that allowed them to fire chickens of varying sizes all with the same barrel. It's called stryrofoam. I know its far-fetched to think they would have this kind of advanced technology in the distant future, though. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
63
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Posted - 2013.02.18 13:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:In the 20th century they had this amazing stuff that allowed them to fire chickens of varying sizes all with the same barrel. It's called stryrofoam. I know its far-fetched to think they would have this kind of advanced technology in the distant future, though. Yes, think APDS/APFSDS rounds, where actual projectile caliber is (much) smaller than that of the barrel it travels through. Actually also explains the gun's damage multiplier, because bigger guns can use bigger proppelant charges. |
Jiska Ensa
Unour Heavy Industries
132
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Posted - 2013.02.18 15:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote: Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.
As a person also settled in engineering, I'm perfectly happy with the explanation. We already know ships in Eve can rapidly create complex structures using nanotechnology. Hell, how many centimetres of armour plating does our ship reconstruct with every cycle of an armour rep? For that matter, how are massive starships built so fast from raw materials?
This explanation makes perfect sense for lasers, makes perfect sense for hybrids (which turn the entire ammo slug into plasma anyway, so it doesn't matter what size it was before), and sounds so last-minute-force-it-to-fit that it just HAS to be how Minmatar do it.
And slapping a warhead to a stockpile of missile fuselages makes perfect sense to me as well.
You need to remember that the various corporations in New Eden are concerned with maximizing profit and minimizing cost, so if they can put out a single product line that works for all ships, regardless of gun caliber, they're set for life.
tl;dr nanites make everything better. |
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
40
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Posted - 2013.02.18 18:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:Louella Dougans wrote: what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell. The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing. which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition. Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile.
Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.
Why not ? Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/ |
Saul Elsyn
Sturmvogel Squadron
58
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Posted - 2013.02.18 20:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Details... Okay, I'm going to go all theoretical for a moment, but bear with me. After reading the item descriptions again, I think I've come up with a basic theory for how each of these systems work.
Hybrid Charges consist of a titanium shell around a core of atoms contained within what is likely a magnetic field inside the shell powered by a small capacitor charged on launch.
When fired in a railgun, a portion of the energy used in the acceleration of the charge is fed into the canister to superheat the contained atoms and convert them into a suspended plasma... or perhaps to generate them in the case of antimatter. Then the entire shell is hurled out in a sabot manufactured by the gun itself. On impact, the containment vessel fails releasing the contained plasma in a burst that causes massive damage.
In the case of blasters, the entire shell is converted into plasma and hurled out the barrel at high speed. There are a number of ways this could be done, my personal favorite being a limited antimatter release into the firing chamber. As it is not a contained charge being fired, the plasma rapidly dissipates resulting in extremely poor range and rapid energy falloff.
Standard Projectile Ammunition is a bit trickier, as autocannons fire bursts of shots that consume only one unit of ammunition while artillery fires only one shell. The idea that the ammo represents warheads that are mounted onto cartridges manufactured by the gun's module itself is an attractive one, but how we go from one shell for artillery to a burst of shots for autocannons leaves a bit to be desired. It's possible that artillery fires a canister of multiple warheads I suppose. |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
235
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Posted - 2013.02.19 05:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Eugene Kerner wrote: Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.
As a person also settled in engineering, I'm perfectly happy with the explanation. We already know ships in Eve can rapidly create complex structures using nanotechnology. Hell, how many centimetres of armour plating does our ship reconstruct with every cycle of an armour rep? For that matter, how are massive starships built so fast from raw materials? This explanation makes perfect sense for lasers, makes perfect sense for hybrids (which turn the entire ammo slug into plasma anyway, so it doesn't matter what size it was before), and sounds so last-minute-force-it-to-fit that it just HAS to be how Minmatar do it. And slapping a warhead to a stockpile of missile fuselages makes perfect sense to me as well. You need to remember that the various corporations in New Eden are concerned with maximizing profit and minimizing cost, so if they can put out a single product line that works for all ships, regardless of gun caliber, they're set for life. tl;dr nanites make everything better.
You make me happy. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
908
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Posted - 2013.02.19 14:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Blasters and lasers don't need to worry about this problem because they're not firing an actual round, and railguns would work regardless of the diameter of the shot (so, the difference in size is probably translated into how fast the round is going, not how big it is) so the only ones for which this is a problem are projectile weapons.
In the real world, when a round is fired from a gun that is of a larger caliber than the round itself, the difference is compensated for with a sabot. given that this is probably some kind of ultra-advanced futuristic caseless ammo, I don't think it's too hard to imagine them having self-assembling sabots that allow them to fit-all-sizes, with again the larger guns translating into a higher muzzle velocity. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
3271
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Posted - 2013.02.19 17:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
I always imagined blasters as just ripping out all the plasma from the centre of a shell and expelling the depleted casing like a giant shotgun shell. Railguns just drop the whole shell into a mass accelerator and fling at things. Lasers are crystals so yeah I doubt there's much issue with sizing there.
Projectiles, I tend to agree with Stitcher, they probably have some sort of rapidly assembling sabot casing that's constructed as the weapon reloads, probably with some sort of rapidly hardening foam and nanite mixture.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith or the devils gonna claim your soul
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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
603
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Posted - 2013.02.20 21:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
The warhead that is fired through a barrel must have the diameter of the Caliber. so you will not fire a 1200 mm artillery shell through a 1400 mm caliber barrel and vice versa.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Saul Elsyn
Sturmvogel Squadron
58
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Posted - 2013.02.21 00:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:The warhead that is fired through a barrel must have the diameter of the Caliber. so you will not fire a 1200 mm artillery shell through a 1400 mm caliber barrel and vice versa. Not necessarily, there is, you see, this nifty device called a sabot... For example the modern 120mm main gun on the M1 Abrams firing APFSDS ammunition is firing a shell that's not 120mm in diameter, but usually between 30-40mm in diameter... the rest of the chamber is filled with a casing that falls off. |
mai Talie-Kuo
Black Dagger Logistics
0
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Posted - 2013.02.24 20:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
The way I always looked at weapon ammo is that we are not carrying. Completed rounds with is. Its more like we are carrying the components that are rapidly assembled when the gun is loaded. That would in my mind count for how different guns use the samessamesIze ammo. And how we are able to carry so many rounds. |
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