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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.07.26 20:04:00 -
[1]
These are some arrangements that would make 0.0 friendlier to pvp-shy folks. Rewards would increase with risk and effort. That said, 0.0 is always inherently dangerous to some degree and the other factor required is that all the carebears in empire:
a. Grow some balls. Holy hell people... this is a video game, not your retirement plan. Take some risks!
b. Organize! You donÆt have to be a 2000 person alliance to effectively use a valuable piece of property in 0.0. You donÆt have to risk tech2 fitted BS, HAC, and Interceptors to fend off pirates. You have MASSIVE numbers and manpower advantages, what is your bloody problem? Lack of insight, lack of vision, lack of creativity...
c. Turn up your game! Turn on your brain! PvP is THE BEST part of this game. That doesnÆt mean ganking, and that doesnÆt even have to mean ship to ship combat. Competing against other players as part of a good team is what makes this game worthwhile. Grinding agent missions in total safety until you get that uber faction ship (or doing similar) is the fast path to finding a new game to grind (WoW anyone?) and a miserable EVE existence.
If I had the time IRL I would leave the pirate life and try to lead a group of people who never thought they could go to 0.0 and teach them to thrive there. I donÆt see why others canÆt do the same.
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TunDraGon.com |
Rivek
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Posted - 2005.07.26 20:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Rivek on 26/07/2005 20:05:16 There are so many threads lately just full of misinformation and mischaracterization it is not even funny. Usually we hear about the ganking pirate 13 yr old counterstrike rejects and the boring and frightened carebear hordes in empire. I know very few pirates who want to gank everyone, rather TDG/Teddies/BNCL want good battles between equals. That said, we will not hesitate to kill anything we can as it may be the one with the good loot. Piracy doesnÆt pay well, even when you are as good at it as we are. That said, Neither are all empire dwellers scared ****less of PvP, though far too many are.
The simplistic characterizations of the ôotherö camp donÆt help us. The big problem in EVE still is how to get people into 0.0. What would make it worthwhile for 95% of EVE's population to leave the newbie fields of empire?
To encourage more people to enter 0.0 CCP could:
1. Introduce still more routes into 0.0, the NWO didnÆt go far enough in my opinion. Gatecamps can never be eliminated but they can be reduced greatly if they are made less useful. Put the point of conflict at the resource and not the travel route to it.
2. Break up 0.0 into further smaller groupings/constellations so as to spread people out within 0.0. A corporation or small alliance might set up operations in a single constellation and happily work in peace due to 3.
3. Remove players in space in 0.0 entirely. It is free recon for anyone seeking people to kill. The hunters will have to work harder to find people and the hunted can "lose" themselves in deep space.
4. Make it so no one shows up in local chat unless they speak. Players in 0.0 have to keep their eyes and ears open and communicate with others. The hunters have to look harder for people and the hunted are harder to spot. Conversely, the hunted might not see an attack coming.
5. Improve the ore types in parts of 0.0 with **** ore. Also, add effects to some systems such as +5% mining yield so they are more attractive to corps and provide something else worthwhile for people to fight over.
6. Either a. improve the drop rate of +1, +2, and +3 implants greatly or b. release BPOs for those implants on the open market to fix their price at a more reasonable level. Many people donÆt fear losing their ships but do fear getting podded. Make it sting a bit less. An alternate idea suggested by someone else in another thread was to add "boosters" in the form of 0.0 only implants (illegal in empire) that had the same effect as implants but were cheap (5-10mil per) and available on the market in 0.0.
7. Better distribution of NPC stations and player conquerable stations throughout 0.0. Leave the best systems with the best ore and best NPCs open for POS or outposts ONLY. Player conquerable stations should extend further into 0.0 than NPC stations also. |
Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.07.26 20:08:00 -
[3]
Best aggregation of the right ideas I've seen lately.
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iNs4ne
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:34:00 -
[4]
hmmm that sounds good. Increasing the drop rate of implants would:
1) make more people go into 0.0 looking for some nice isk. 2) decrease the price of implants 3) make more people go into 0.0 due to the lower cost of replacing them plugs
thats what i call killing 3 rabits w/ one stone
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:41:00 -
[5]
/signed
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 26/07/2005 21:46:01 no local and no pilots in system just favors those that camp a popular route. You think by blindfolding people they will feel safer?
0.0 is pvp land. Anything else can better be done in empire except some good ores.
no need to get more people into 00. People come to 00 after they have done the empire thing and had enough. 00 is where things are much more player driven. Its really the last stop before people leave Eve. So its best to make it more fun, not more difficult as many of your ideas would.
The hardest thing currently about being in 00 is getting new equipment after you die. When we can get T2 ships and stuff in 00, then we will be doing much better. Should have NPC build some T2 stuff, but only after they buy from the market everything required to build it, and only at higher prices easily undercut by players. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 26/07/2005 21:50:56 Removing local unless you speak will instantly kill the concept of wolfpacks, it will seriously hamper intel on enemy movement and make scanprobes less worth it because you'll never know if someone left the system, logged off or is just quiet. It will encourage camping.
Other than that, fairly good ideas. What I'd like to see is constellations with a single choke so that a large corp or a small alliance could claim and defend one. The problem is, however, that very few constellations are actually worth defending.
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Amerame
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:58:00 -
[8]
1. It's already much harder to defend than to attack, removing chokepoints would even increase this problem, but increasing the number of chokepoints inside 0.0 would do the job, maybe that is what you meant in your point 2, alliances / corps need a way to defend their territories.
3 & 4. That would make the game more interesting, definitely. Increasing the need for skilled scouts, but that means the game would also be much more difficult, I'm not sure that would push more people in 0.0. At the moment, you're pretty much 100% safe from being ganked while mining, rating and even traveling unless you want to be caught.
5. Agreed, sooo much useless space.
6. Yeah +3 implants are way to expensive, my opinion is that they should put as much more necessary on the market to get their price down to 10M, and keep the higher one very expensive.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:58:00 -
[9]
If the user list for local is removed like that, then the game should drop a log-on/log-off notification into local if someone logs on/off in space.
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Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:58:00 -
[10]
Oh look, he just listed 7 of the very best ideas to improve 0.0, along with 3 of the best pieces of advice to get into 0.0 and ultimately enjoy the game a hell of a lot more. signed!
0.0 may be the "last thing you do before you quit eve", technically, but it's by far the longest-lasting and most rewarding end-game experience of any other mmorpg on the market at the moment. Empire is merely a preperation for 0.0, just like levelling up is a preperation to the high-level raiding content in games like EQ. The difference is, 0.0 life > continual grinding of raid dungeons.
Basically, people who spend all their time in empire with no desires to leave for 0.0 may as well be playing an mmorpg that's designed to be tedious and repetitive and nothing else - it's not like there's a lack of those kinda games about at the moment.
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Drosssk
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:01:00 -
[11]
I love these ideas.
Risk vs Reward is the way this game NEEDS to go.
That being said i dont think this goes far enough. I know people in empire love living in COMPLETE security isk whorring it up, but i think that there should be:
1. NO lv3+ agents in high sec. Or if there are ALL of their missions should be in lower sec areas (0.4-).This will push more people into lower sec.
2. There should be NO lv 4+ complexes in high sec. (I dont know if this is already the case as i havnt been in empire in along time)
3. All high sec empire ores and ice should be dumbed down even more. If they want the money force em to play the game.
4. Prevent all POS deployment in ALL empire. Theres no risk in this. NONE AT ALL. Colonizing an already colonized system?? WTF m8. Open up the chokepoints to let them get out into 0.0 and do it right.
5. Open up the BLOODY map. There are sooo many pockets low sec systems that a true pirate CANNOT get to without being lame and having an alt move a ship there. This is a big one, not only because it irritates many pirates but if you want pirates to move around and NOT always be at the same gate 24/7 GIVE us places to go. There should be NO low sec system a pirate cannot get to (could be long and obscure routes but make it possible)
Now granted, this is from my (a pirate's) point of view. However, I KNOW how the noobs feel about pirates always laming them in the same places whenever they try to go places because us pirates are so very limited to the places we can go. And even then out of the places we can go the only places worth going are where there is traffic which always happens to be noobs. If they made these changes i GUARANTEE that the game would get better for not only pirates but for carebears as well because it would force them to experience the game, and god knows THEY MIGHT LIKE IT?
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Drosssk
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:03:00 -
[12]
Oh and bout the people not showing in local unless they talk. Make it EXACTLY like the trade channels (the functionality is already there). Make it show the number in local but not show faces. This will make 0.0 ALOT better.
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Myal Terego
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 26/07/2005 21:46:01 no local and no pilots in system just favors those that camp a popular route. You think by blindfolding people they will feel safer?
That very argument was used when the map update changes were made public. Still it didnt make 0.0 less populated, its just as bad as it has been for quite some time. Simple fact is if local would be removed in 0.0, it would indeed require some more caution on the main routes, but in the long run im confident that it would finally move PvP away from the gates. Simply because it would be alot more fun, and maybe even efficent to take them down without instajumps and stacked warpcores. There would not be a need for gankage all the time.
It would bring back piracy, a piracy that would be more enjoyable for both victim and ourselfs. Surely you can agree that even if you will loose ships it be with the knowledge that the hunter had spent time on locating you, checking map changes, hiding, scanning, rather then sit at a gate with multiple buddies to ensure a fast enough lock and high enough scramble strenght. Tolling ships would most likely increase aswell.
Simply put, it would benefit those who put the effort, and punish the easy gankage, in the long run. Since it will always be easy to spot a gate camp if you bother checking the map.
Thats atleast my view on it.
cheers [center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg |
Burnhard Brutor
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drosssk .......This will push more people into lower sec.
Typical Snigg post - could have used the word "encourage", but prefers to use the word "push". A lesson for you (it will help you in future in real life): people don't like being pushed, they much prefer positive reinforcement. As a dealer in negative reinforcement, I'm not suprised you don't understand the concept.
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Siri Danae
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:16:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Siri Danae on 26/07/2005 22:16:27 Nope. All changes to 0.0 should make it easier for alliances to govern themselves responsibly. Then they can invite the carebears in.
My theory: 1. Alliances need to be rewarded for responsible governance of a region(ie maintaining security and active markets). 2. Alliances need to be held responsible for the well-being of neutrals in their space. 3. Industrials need to be rewarded for bringing, en masse, jobs other than mining to 0.0, IE manufacturing and trade. 4. Industrials need to learn to navigate the politics of 0.0. ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
Reeperman
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:19:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Reeperman on 26/07/2005 22:19:58 Arrrrrgh!! Sorry...
Look, you go there if you want to, if you dont want to you wont.. I know that sounds stupid but I like going out there not becuase of the fact it is interesting.. I can do COSMOS for that etc.. I go there BECAUSE of the lack of people and BECUASE of the PvP (contradictory yes I know but it makes it exciting). Yes, give me stations and toys and ease.. but then it is no longer 0.0.
Am I an alt ... YES! get over it..
---**---**--- Carebear and proud of it ---**---**--- |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rivek PvP is THE BEST part of this game. That doesnÆt mean ganking, and that doesnÆt even have to mean ship to ship combat. Competing against other players as part of a good team is what makes this game worthwhile.
Excuse me, but who appointed you God? What gives you the right to tell other people what they enjoy doing?
_______ I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
Reeperman
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Rivek PvP is THE BEST part of this game. That doesnÆt mean ganking, and that doesnÆt even have to mean ship to ship combat. Competing against other players as part of a good team is what makes this game worthwhile.
Excuse me, but who appointed you God? What gives you the right to tell other people what they enjoy doing?
Yah I agree, although PvP is fun.. Mining doesnt get my heart racing like PvP does.. (even thouhg I am sh*te at it )
---**---**--- Carebear and proud of it ---**---**--- |
Jessa
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:30:00 -
[19]
Rivek I love you, most constructive and well thought out post evar
...oh yeah, signed.
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Dsanta2345
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:31:00 -
[20]
1. no 2. no 3. never happen 4. no 5. no 6. no 7. no
piracy/ganking/pvping whatever try to live there full time with only your corp stations and POSs keeping you alive. ----- I dont sleep much so dont mind my errors or extra words. CCP plz fix this random bug: Linkage |
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Amox
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Amox on 26/07/2005 22:33:12 Edited by: Amox on 26/07/2005 22:32:11
sorry wrong thread
Your Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Oracle, wrecking for 722.3 damage. |
Ryan Routine
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:34:00 -
[22]
/signed
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Myal Terego
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Rivek PvP is THE BEST part of this game. That doesnÆt mean ganking, and that doesnÆt even have to mean ship to ship combat. Competing against other players as part of a good team is what makes this game worthwhile.
Excuse me, but who appointed you God? What gives you the right to tell other people what they enjoy doing?
Freedom of speech, gives him the right to voice hes opinion, and encourage others to try out what he loves about this game. You are now excused. [center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg |
Allen Deckard
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Myal Terego
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 26/07/2005 21:46:01 no local and no pilots in system just favors those that camp a popular route. You think by blindfolding people they will feel safer?
That very argument was used when the map update changes were made public. Still it didnt make 0.0 less populated, its just as bad as it has been for quite some time. Simple fact is if local would be removed in 0.0, it would indeed require some more caution on the main routes, but in the long run im confident that it would finally move PvP away from the gates. Simply because it would be alot more fun, and maybe even efficent to take them down without instajumps and stacked warpcores. There would not be a need for gankage all the time.
It would bring back piracy, a piracy that would be more enjoyable for both victim and ourselfs. Surely you can agree that even if you will loose ships it be with the knowledge that the hunter had spent time on locating you, checking map changes, hiding, scanning, rather then sit at a gate with multiple buddies to ensure a fast enough lock and high enough scramble strenght. Tolling ships would most likely increase aswell.
Simply put, it would benefit those who put the effort, and punish the easy gankage, in the long run. Since it will always be easy to spot a gate camp if you bother checking the map.
Thats atleast my view on it.
cheers
Cant say I agree. All it would do is move pirates to the gate (same as they are now) move pirates to a station to gank a station. At least currently with locals a mining op has at least a bit of a chance to escape before being slaughtered. With no local all it ends up being is completely removing any posibility of industry in .0 as mining ends up being impossible. and yes they will find you they will find your mining area and once someone knows what systems your mining (usually 2 or 3) they jump into said system unknown to miners jump from belt to belt till they get ya. Wouldnt even be able to undock in an industrial ship for fear of pirate camp outside a base. Yah yah bring 50 friends scatter them to the four corners of surrounding systems gates in cloak ships to get early warnings or whatever. All removing local does is favor the attacker 100% I know it you know it.
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Burnhard Brutor
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Myal Terego
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Rivek PvP is THE BEST part of this game. That doesnÆt mean ganking, and that doesnÆt even have to mean ship to ship combat. Competing against other players as part of a good team is what makes this game worthwhile.
Excuse me, but who appointed you God? What gives you the right to tell other people what they enjoy doing?
Freedom of speech, gives him the right to voice hes opinion, and encourage others to try out what he loves about this game. You are now excused.
You are both right. PvP is good, but Ganked v Ganker isn't much fun. Two people fighting on equalish terms is a hoot.
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Dakath
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:41:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Dakath on 26/07/2005 22:42:37
Originally by: Rivek 1. Introduce still more routes into 0.0, the NWO didnÆt go far enough in my opinion. Gatecamps can never be eliminated but they can be reduced greatly if they are made less useful. Put the point of conflict at the resource and not the travel route to it.
Gotta agree with that. The gank is still in place. Not worth wasting my time as long as it is still there. Alternatively CCP should make all weapons useless within 1,000,000 km of all 0.0 gates and stations. End of the gank.
Originally by: Rivek 3. Remove players in space in 0.0 entirely.
Don't know about that. Delaying the display by 30 minutes made me much less willing to go to 0.0. I want to know what I am getting into as much as I can know.
Originally by: Rivek 4. Make it so no one shows up in local chat unless they speak.
Sounds like a winner.
Originally by: Rivek 6. Either a. improve the drop rate of +1, +2, and +3 implants greatly or b. release BPOs for those implants on the open market to fix their price at a more reasonable level. Many people donÆt fear losing their ships but do fear getting podded.
Or CCP could make the things NOT self-destruct when removed. If I could take out my implants and put them back in later I would find lowsec space much more tempting. They would still be expensive.
Mostly it's the gank. If the gank were eliminated completely 0.0 space would fill up pretty quickly.
I see further down the thread the usual stuff about "pushing" players into 0.0.
The day I can't make a living in empire is the day CCP loses the income from 3 accounts. There are plenty of people who feel the same way. The majority in fact. Don't believe it? Check the map. At any given time most players are in empire.
1000 baby bunnies were slow-roasted alive to create this signature line.
We Hate Bunny |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dsanta2345 1. no 2. no 3. never happen 4. no 5. no 6. no 7. no
piracy/ganking/pvping whatever try to live there full time with only your corp stations and POSs keeping you alive.
I'm curious to your reasons for 5+6? Could only improve the game imo.
I like the ideas. Not too sure about totally killing the map but implementation of the majority of this would be a step in the right direction.
Great post, full of ideas that can work and none of this "omgbuhu" crap we see so much of.
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Kerby Lane
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Blind Fear If the user list for local is removed like that, then the game should drop a log-on/log-off notification into local if someone logs on/off in space.
Thats the point.
It will be really stupid to close the system and spend time trying to search someone with probes just to find out that he logged.
And... probes must be fixed by the time if local will be removed.
Please no probes on scanner and 3-d scan.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:45:00 -
[29]
I agree. Would be great if CCP did this.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Myal Terego
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Originally by: Myal Terego
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 26/07/2005 21:46:01 no local and no pilots in system just favors those that camp a popular route. You think by blindfolding people they will feel safer?
That very argument was used when the map update changes were made public. Still it didnt make 0.0 less populated, its just as bad as it has been for quite some time. Simple fact is if local would be removed in 0.0, it would indeed require some more caution on the main routes, but in the long run im confident that it would finally move PvP away from the gates. Simply because it would be alot more fun, and maybe even efficent to take them down without instajumps and stacked warpcores. There would not be a need for gankage all the time.
It would bring back piracy, a piracy that would be more enjoyable for both victim and ourselfs. Surely you can agree that even if you will loose ships it be with the knowledge that the hunter had spent time on locating you, checking map changes, hiding, scanning, rather then sit at a gate with multiple buddies to ensure a fast enough lock and high enough scramble strenght. Tolling ships would most likely increase aswell.
Simply put, it would benefit those who put the effort, and punish the easy gankage, in the long run. Since it will always be easy to spot a gate camp if you bother checking the map.
Thats atleast my view on it.
cheers
Cant say I agree. All it would do is move pirates to the gate (same as they are now) move pirates to a station to gank a station. At least currently with locals a mining op has at least a bit of a chance to escape before being slaughtered. With no local all it ends up being is completely removing any posibility of industry in .0 as mining ends up being impossible. and yes they will find you they will find your mining area and once someone knows what systems your mining (usually 2 or 3) they jump into said system unknown to miners jump from belt to belt till they get ya. Wouldnt even be able to undock in an industrial ship for fear of pirate camp outside a base. Yah yah bring 50 friends scatter them to the four corners of surrounding systems gates in cloak ships to get early warnings or whatever. All removing local does is favor the attacker 100% I know it you know it.
i will agree that docking would be more risky, didnt think of it in that way. It would haveto be solved in some way. But the attacker has same tools as the defender, and if the defender bothers to scan, and use scouts as the attacker would do, it would level it out.
As for the statement "removing local does favour the attacker 100%", i would reply "keeping local favours the defender 200%". Remeber, we are not asking for easier kills and more gankage. Just more variation and tactical possibilities.
:)
[center] http://213.142.66.138/~nervar/myalb.jpg |
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