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Heelay Ashrum
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Posted - 2005.07.28 09:44:00 -
[1]
Since we will se soon dreadnoughts in space i was checking what could be a defence good enough to deal with one of those beasts. At first look seems that exept hes better sniping capability (~200km for xlarge turrets) they cannot make more dammage as a single BS ( xlarge guns make rougly twice dammage as a large turret, but a dread can mount only 3 turrets).
What make a dread a Pos killer it's hes immense tanking capability ( capitar armour rep repairs=9600 every 30 secs  ), to i was triing to undestand how many large sentries ( beam alsers for example) are needed to outtank a dread fully fitted.
Someone did already some math about that ( or made some test on sisi/test server) ?
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Jubeli
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Posted - 2005.07.28 11:04:00 -
[2]
First of all you should look at the Siege Module post under Ships. Then you'll see how a dread can rip a POS apart. You need to take into consideration the ammo dmg that also is a lot higher. Take the Phoenix for instance, the Capital torpedos can have a base damage around 1800 dmg (kinetic, good skils), then add dmg mods and siege module and you kills BSs in maximum two volleys if you have targetpainters on them aswell.
The Dread can easily tank 3-4 BS shooting at it, if not more. I haven't tested it fully or done the math but my guess it that you need firepower matching maybe 6+ BSs (?)..
I'm not a PVPer or into POS so I'll let someone that is either do the math. :)
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Aramoro
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Posted - 2005.07.28 12:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aramoro on 28/07/2005 12:03:46
Lets consider some figures. According to other people post on here in seige mode a dread gets +50% armour rep bonus in seige mode but cannot be effected by other modules, so no fireballing. So with Repair Systems 5 and Capital Repair Systems 5 and 1 Capital rep you'll repair 14400 points of armour every 15 seconds. With thier lowslots they'll pump thier resist, ofr the sake of argument to 60% accross the board. This gives you a rep rate of 960 hp/s
With a Mimater Tower using Large Artiliry. A normal shot using XL EMP is 7480 damage against 60% resists thats 2992 damage per shot, you get 1 shot every 22.5 seconds. Thats 132 dps , so in theory you will need 8 Large Arties to overcome it's tank.
Now what about if they have to come closer, then your in Auto Cannon range, Using XL Depleted Uranium you'll be doing around 1408 unmodified damage pershot, with resists 563 , but you fire every 3 seconds so 187 DPS. So 6 Large Autocannon batteries will give a Dread a bad day at the office.
The simple answer is lots. There is always a chance that 6 large arties will insta kill a dreadnought obviously if they all hit wrecking shots. Thats the thoery but we wont know for sure till they're in the field.
Aramoro
[S]tateCorp - "We are the Presscorp" |
Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.28 14:22:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Vishnej on 28/07/2005 14:24:22
Edited by: Vishnej on 28/07/2005 14:23:26
A) siege modules boosts resistances
B) and armor repair amount/speed
C) A covops can get a dread into position by having it warp directly there, within range of autocannons/blasters and ready to siege.
D) With a Moros, at least, sniping from beyond 250km is perfectly possible in a gank-setup siege mode, for 3000 DPS or so.
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Jon Hawkes
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Posted - 2005.07.28 14:36:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jon Hawkes on 28/07/2005 14:36:05
How's about fitting a couple of Sensor Dampening Batteries and ECM Arrays to make life difficult for any Dreadnought pilots? After all, there's enough complaints about EW being overpowered, so it would make sense to take advantage of this, especially as the relevant ECMs have a jamming strength of 45!
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Aramoro
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Posted - 2005.07.28 14:50:00 -
[6]
Apprently in Seige mode Dreads are immune to EW.
I'd be interested to see how you get 3000dps out of a dread tho, esp the Moros at 250km.
It can have 3 Dual 1000mm railguns , with Sharpshooter 5 thats an optimal of 120km so hitting at 250km should be possible, locking distance is around 130km without mods, so you need 2 Sensor Booster II's to lock at 250km, that give you 3 slots for tracking computer II's but even discounting the the stacking penalty you only get out to 182km optimal but with the 60km falloff thats 242 km so that close enough.
With Damage mods in the lows so 7 Mag Stab II's, Sugical Strike 5 and XL turrets 5 you get teh damage mod to say 12 being generous. that means an unmodified hit is 864 with Thorium (that gives you the extra range to hit) and you have 3 of them that 2592 damage. Say you get the firing time dow to 5 seconds which looks doable thats a shade over 500dps. Now 500dps at 250km is nothing to sneeze at but it's not 3000dps so unless theres an undocumented x6 damage mod for being in Seige mode I dont know how it's going to do this.
Again these are just numbers, but hey the game is based on them.
Aramoro
[S]tateCorp - "We are the Presscorp" |
Aimee Black
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Posted - 2005.07.29 03:40:00 -
[7]
Well I am going to try and test some of this out on the test server. I will be in the process of setting up an Amarr large there and I will ask the devs to attack it with dreads (hopefully they will).
I will try and post my results and the setup here.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.07.29 05:01:00 -
[8]
u dont need sensor booster IIs :) the key is in gang skills and errm some creative usage of the gang modules that'll boost resists to the dread further prolly into the 98% range while in siege mode.. have fun killing it then with any POS
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Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2005.07.29 08:08:00 -
[9]
so with a dread you could tank a gate in empire a pod on sight ? :)
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randy andy
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Posted - 2005.07.29 08:36:00 -
[10]
hhm you could camp a gate but it would have to be something good in system or its a waste of a dread time
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Zandramus
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Posted - 2005.07.29 12:40:00 -
[11]
TBH
I cant wait for the dreads to be delivered, suddenly all the smaktards that have deployed med pos's in hostile space with 10 med rails and 6 small rails will have to come out of the bubble and actually fight to keep their POS.
POS's are seriously unbalanced ATM , Hopefully Dreads will remedy this.
Zandramus
S.A.S
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Sieur NewT
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Posted - 2005.07.29 13:48:00 -
[12]
I have read somewhere in past on dev newsletter that dreads in siege mode could hit only structures so POS & conquer stations, did they change this ?
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Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret! |
FalloutBoy
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Posted - 2005.07.29 21:41:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Sieur NewT
I have read somewhere in past on dev newsletter that dreads in siege mode could hit only structures so POS & conquer stations, did they change this ?
this is true but the method they did this buy was by giving them crap tracking in siege mode. a couple scorps could rememdy that pretty easy.
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Rendill
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Posted - 2005.07.30 14:19:00 -
[14]
Not if they arent affected by modules, good or bad....
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Dimitri Forgroth
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Posted - 2005.07.30 19:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 30/07/2005 19:09:54
The dreads don't have to be affected by the modules. 16 target painters on a target would light it up pretty good. Unless affects to other ships are also discounted?
| Don't be a bad loser | |
Vaaliant
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Posted - 2005.07.31 02:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dimitri Forgroth
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 30/07/2005 19:09:54
The dreads don't have to be affected by the modules. 16 target painters on a target would light it up pretty good. Unless affects to other ships are also discounted?
Thats EXACTLY what they did. All forms of sensor/tracking boosting, EW, etc are no good against a dread in siege mode. Its just too bad that whoever gets a dread first is basically putting the worlds largest target on their backs as everyone and their dog will want to take it down.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.31 05:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vaaliant
Originally by: Dimitri Forgroth
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 30/07/2005 19:09:54
The dreads don't have to be affected by the modules. 16 target painters on a target would light it up pretty good. Unless affects to other ships are also discounted?
Thats EXACTLY what they did. All forms of sensor/tracking boosting, EW, etc are no good against a dread in siege mode. Its just too bad that whoever gets a dread first is basically putting the worlds largest target on their backs as everyone and their dog will want to take it down.
How?
The target's sig radius gets boosted by the target painters - the DN doesn't even get targetted by the support ships.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.08.01 19:59:00 -
[18]
how will reinforce mode play into all of this? will it become a battle of logistics? doesn't siege mode take mins to run?
sorry if wrong here - just not sure how it will all work out!
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Vaaliant
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Posted - 2005.08.01 23:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vishnej
Originally by: Vaaliant
Originally by: Dimitri Forgroth
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 30/07/2005 19:09:54
The dreads don't have to be affected by the modules. 16 target painters on a target would light it up pretty good. Unless affects to other ships are also discounted?
Thats EXACTLY what they did. All forms of sensor/tracking boosting, EW, etc are no good against a dread in siege mode. Its just too bad that whoever gets a dread first is basically putting the worlds largest target on their backs as everyone and their dog will want to take it down.
How?
The target's sig radius gets boosted by the target painters - the DN doesn't even get targetted by the support ships.
Approximate wording from the devs was that in siege mode all forms of ECM and sensor boosting/tracking boosts from both the dread as well as allied ships are no good. That means everything from enemy disruptors to target painters will not work. Interesting question that brings up is if stealth emitters work then?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.01 23:44:00 -
[20]
target painting affects the target not the user. Everyone will see its bigger sig radius, it actually physically changes the attributes. What the devs were talking about was the ability of modules that are targeted at the dread to work, ie ECM does not work on the dread(you cannot jam it).. however if the dread has ECM modules equipped (beats me why) that will work.
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Jubeli
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Posted - 2005.08.02 10:40:00 -
[21]
I think all the POS runners that survive the dread slaughter when they are more common will be very happy that they keep stock =)
This is the solution to POS material surplus.
10 minutes, the siege mode and BAM BAM BAM, bye bye POS. Add a few Scorps as people say, that target paint up other ships and they will be as good as dead. Hopefully this will teach people to take out supportships such as Scorps first then, after that you just have a dread to hammer (after you kill it's drones)..
I wonder who will be the first one to kill a dread without the use of another dread.....
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Ehrine Ashbark
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Posted - 2005.08.02 15:18:00 -
[22]
Umm, boosting the sig radius of a target won't help a dreadnaught track at all. Think about it, tracking is an attempt to overcome your targets transverse velocity. Doesn't matter how big or small your target appears to be, it's still moving at a set speed and if that's faster then a dreadnaughts guns can track (which is next to no tracking speed in siege mode) they will simply be unable to hit.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.02 15:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: FalloutBoy
Originally by: Sieur NewT
I have read somewhere in past on dev newsletter that dreads in siege mode could hit only structures so POS & conquer stations, did they change this ?
this is true but the method they did this buy was by giving them crap tracking in siege mode. a couple scorps could rememdy that pretty easy.
Except you can't use modules on a dread when its in siege mode.
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Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2005.08.02 15:43:00 -
[24]
I am guessing the smart tactic will be to put your Dread, single boosting Scorp (and whatever support fleet you feel appropriate), outside of the 250 KM locking range of the POS. Then don't bother with seige mode and pound the POS down with no risk to the Dread at all.
Sure, that'll be slower than seige mode maybe, but I bet that'll be the preferred tactic against real death-star POSes.
BW
Originally by: Pallas Athene
IŠm using voice recognition software - where my fingers get stuck isnŠt your concern sweetheart 
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.08.03 05:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bobby Wilson
I am guessing the smart tactic will be to put your Dread, single boosting Scorp (and whatever support fleet you feel appropriate), outside of the 250 KM locking range of the POS. Then don't bother with seige mode and pound the POS down with no risk to the Dread at all.
Sure, that'll be slower than seige mode maybe, but I bet that'll be the preferred tactic against real death-star POSes.
BW
Siege mode is 5x damage, without it I believe a sniper tempest comes pretty close to the same damage output as a long range dread.
Also, I'm led to believe that the sentrys attack range was de-coupled from the towers locking range with the patch ? so Large artillery for instance can activate from 330km.
(Would love to hear for sure one way or the other on that one)
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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The Enslaver
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Posted - 2005.08.03 22:04:00 -
[26]
When in siege mode you can't use tracking links, remote sensor boosters, target painters or any form of EW on a Dread.
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FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU. |
Jubeli
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Posted - 2005.08.04 13:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ehrine Ashbark
Umm, boosting the sig radius of a target won't help a dreadnaught track at all. Think about it, tracking is an attempt to overcome your targets transverse velocity. Doesn't matter how big or small your target appears to be, it's still moving at a set speed and if that's faster then a dreadnaughts guns can track (which is next to no tracking speed in siege mode) they will simply be unable to hit.
Ah but what the hell, then stick in a few Inty's with webbers to support (Stiletto?). They hold the BS down which is lighted up by the Scorps (so it is now as big as a moon) and the Dreadnough should be able to make a proper piercing straight through the BS's hull.
I would call that a proper piercing. Straight through the command post.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2005.08.04 21:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jubeli
Ah but what the hell, then stick in a few Inty's with webbers to support (Stiletto?). They hold the BS down which is lighted up by the Scorps (so it is now as big as a moon) and the Dreadnough should be able to make a proper piercing straight through the BS's hull.
I would call that a proper piercing. Straight through the command post.
Why on earth bother? If the support fleet is multiple BSes, fit them for damage and participate directly by killing the hostile fleet ?
BTW, I have hard that locked past 250 KMs is impossible for any ship, possibly hardcoded. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
BW
Originally by: Nervar
We allready play EvE wich by definition allready makes us the most patient people on the planet.
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Jeaila Brightstar
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Posted - 2005.08.05 12:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bobby Wilson
BTW, I have hard that locked past 250 KMs is impossible for any ship, possibly hardcoded. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Well, all the batteries and such now have individual activation ranges set for pretty far out there. Most even have their own individual sensor strengths. Haven't tested the actual range yet, will do that this week.
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Wolf SteinerDavion
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Posted - 2005.08.06 11:46:00 -
[30]
Siege mode:
Immunity to EW
+500% damage (there's your undocumented x6 feature)
-50% Armor Repairers and Shield Boosters cycle time
+100% Armor/Shield repaired per cycle
-97% tracking
-97% Missile Explosion Radius
NO resistance bonuses.
What this *LOOKS* like to me, is that with a supporting fleet of about 30-40 ships to actually move the Dread, it's gonna be DAMNED easy to shoot a fulle defended large PoS into reinforced mode.
That also means that PoS'es are as such only usable by two certain alliances that can just go around the map and pwn any PoS in their path with impunity.
What this means for the whole PoS idea I don't know, but I do know I spent literally hundreds of hours managing and babying our two PoS'es and I'd hate it if two dreads could fly along and whoop it. Which, again, it looks like it will be the case.
I'm more and more beginning to think that Dreads are going to have a very negative impact on the already totally out of whack alliance balance. Just as Freighthers have basically ruined empire trading.
This is EVE Online, Not BoB/5 online...
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