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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
277
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Posted - 2013.03.04 11:13:00 -
[781] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff. You need to stop looking at this from your point of view and look at the bigger picture. Allowing industry to compete in null sec will breathe new life into the area, an area which is very stale at the moment and needs a good shake up. Unfortunately, in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec, hi-sec industry will need to be nerfed in some way. This will not be good for your present playstyle, however it will be good for the game as a whole.
Yep, you're correct that it will "not be good" for my "present playstyle," PM. It will end it. But it will also "not be good" for anyone manufacturing in multiple npc stations whether those are in the same region or across space. They'll need to manufacture at their POS and transport goods instead. And it will not be good for anyone who has grinded standings to have perfect refining at multiple npc stations. Those guys will have to freighter the ore to their POS and refine there instead. So I'm pretty sure these changes, if implemented, will "not be good" for a great many folks besides myself. People go all ape-**** when you touch one high slot on their ship - I can't even imgaine the ****storm this will produce. It's a major inconvenience.
You know, when the new UI was slapped on Tranquility I was told to get over it. When my Prophecy BC was just neutered and turned into a drone ship, I was told to get over it. If I just wasted an entire year of gameplay grinding mechanics that will soon be rendered worthless and am about to be told to get over it again, at some point, there will come a day where even I won't.
I enjoy the game as much as anyone but my bs threshold has never been particularly high.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 11:18:00 -
[782] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Primary Me wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff. You need to stop looking at this from your point of view and look at the bigger picture. Allowing industry to compete in null sec will breathe new life into the area, an area which is very stale at the moment and needs a good shake up. Unfortunately, in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec, hi-sec industry will need to be nerfed in some way. This will not be good for your present playstyle, however it will be good for the game as a whole. Yep, you're correct that it will "not be good" for my "present playstyle," PM. It will end it. But it will also "not be good" for anyone manufacturing in multiple npc stations whether those are in the same region or across space. They'll need to manufacture at their POS and transport goods instead. And it will not be good for anyone who has grinded standings to have perfect refining at multiple npc stations. Those guys will have to freighter the ore to their POS and refine there instead. So I'm pretty sure these changes, if implemented, will "not be good" for a great many folks besides myself. People go all ape-**** when you touch one high slot on their ship - I can't even imgaine the ****storm this will produce. It's a major inconvenience. You know, when the new UI was slapped on Tranquility I was told to get over it. When my Prophecy BC was just neutered and turned into a drone ship, I was told to get over it. If I just wasted an entire year of gameplay grinding mechanics that will soon be rendered worthless and am about to be told to get over it again, at some point, there will come a day where even I won't. I enjoy the game as much as anyone but my bs threshold has never been particularly high. YK If you max your refine and manufacture at an NPC station you would be slightly less competitive than someone using a POS for manufacturing. So the person taking the greater risk and expenditure would be slightly more competitive. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.03.04 11:48:00 -
[783] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:... we need a NPC facility price rise... Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone? |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.03.04 11:51:00 -
[784] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:...in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec..
Then you would support allowing Moon mining in Highsec? |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.03.04 12:17:00 -
[785] - Quote
When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.
From what I've read, I see the mindset that's causing the lack of balance between empire and null. People in empire just expect to have all the facilities available, at any point, with zero effort involved.
What I actually suggested was:
- Increased indy slots on player built outposts and possibly POS
- Decrease or tax indy slots on NPC stations to make building in POSs or null more profitable compared to building in NPC stations (Risk vs Reward. You risk a wardec, with a corp that has several POSs running multiple builds, you should get more reward!)
- Inverting the refinery efficiency for NPC stations to Nullsec outposts. Empire NPC stations become the less efficient way to refine stuff.
- Ability to anchor small refineries in highsec
- Decrease in mobility for nullsec. Cool down timers on capitals jump drives and removal or rework of jump bridges
PROs Would shift a large part of the industrial work to nullsec due to: - Hauling built items is not longer that viable / easy
- Building is actually more efficient if done locally
- Null would actually be seed the empire markets with T2 items for a profit
Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).- Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
- Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient
CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance
It all comes down to risk vs reward. At the moment, industry has no reward in moving to higher risk, be it in a POS in highsec or moving to nullsec. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:23:00 -
[786] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.
If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.
Those that don't, Don't
Considering the pleas to completely remove NPC station slots, it'd be totally forced.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7956
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:25:00 -
[787] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:... we need a NPC facility price rise... Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone?
They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space.
So in over half the map, no, they aren't. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:34:00 -
[788] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:... we need a NPC facility price rise... Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone? They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space. So in over half the map, no, they aren't. So, the can do it... it is open to them. They choose not to go where it is available.
If I want to Moon mine, I have to go where it is availableGǪ why should industrialist be different? |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:46:00 -
[789] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote: CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance....
Sound like a very bad change.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7956
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:00:00 -
[790] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:... we need a NPC facility price rise... Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone? They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space. So in over half the map, no, they aren't. So, the can do it... it is open to them. They choose not to go where it is available. If I want to Moon mine, I have to go where it is availableGǪ why should industrialist be different?
There are plenty of moons in NPC space. You can't moon mine in W-space though. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7956
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:01:00 -
[791] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Stray Bullets wrote: CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance....
Sound like a very bad change.
It's also meaningless strawman nonsense. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:21:00 -
[792] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?
And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.
So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitivity?
To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:28:00 -
[793] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion. Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]- Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
- Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient
And this is the first hypocrital bias.
Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be. Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else.
And here is the second:
Stray Bullets wrote: CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance
Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game. The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:43:00 -
[794] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?
And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.
So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness? To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea. Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.
So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:47:00 -
[795] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.
I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation.
I like the idea of adding features that allow more styles of play... such a 0.0 manufactures being more viable. I dislike the idea of 'nerf' the other guy because the game is too hard. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:50:00 -
[796] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion. Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]- Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
- Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient
And this is the first hypocrital bias. Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be. Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else. And here is the second: Stray Bullets wrote: CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance
Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game. The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow. Ok well first point no sov space is not very dangerous at the moment for members of the big blue donut, that is why their is a push to get Sov made usage based and to get industry fixed.
As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:52:00 -
[797] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.
I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation. By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP? EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 13:58:00 -
[798] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion. Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]- Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
- Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient
And this is the first hypocrital bias. Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be. Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else. And here is the second: Stray Bullets wrote: CONs Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance
Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game. The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow.
Mate, I'm a highsec industrial player. I've lived in pretty much every kind of space there is (npc null, sov null, wspace, lowsec, empire) and nothing beats empire space for efficiency in industry. I really don't care about moogoo as I've got none. I currently do ice mining and play the markets in highsec. Used to do capital building in sov null but that just hard work for a crap pay while having **** tons more risk than in empire space.
Regarding your comment about pissing in the wind, I consider myself a casual player these days, I make about 2bil a week, playing about 10h/week. I can't even think about competing with any serious builder or trader as we've all got the same base of operations. (NPC Stations)
In no way I think I should be entitled to competing with someone who risks more and puts in more time that I do. If you risk more, you should get more. I wouldn't mind getting a POS in highsec, even declaring war on some pubbie corp to get their moon slot ... but currently, I get nothing from declaring war on a corp besides the spot to anchor a POS, which by itself gives me nothing except maybe lower times on slots.
At the moment, industry as it is, it's broken when it comes to risk vs reward. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:10:00 -
[799] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.
I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation. By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP? The assumption was... "I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine"
I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry). |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:12:00 -
[800] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?
And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.
So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness? To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea. Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid. So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.
There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it.
The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*.
I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time.
I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack).
I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more.
Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate. If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality.
As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less.
All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale. All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers! All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded.
All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time.
At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds.
Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues.
And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way.
Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this.
If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can.
Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority.
I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process.
Just no! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:15:00 -
[801] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec.
Profit margin? Heck even in RL a small entity can easily make the same or better profit margins than a larger one due to the "small and agile and efficient" factors. Yet the large entity will field huge numbers and in the end the small entity will easily earn their Honda for their CEO, while the large entity with same margins will earn their Ferraris collection for their CEO. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:19:00 -
[802] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.
I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation. By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP? The assumption was... "I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine" I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry). Personally I am not a 0.0 player, I have done that found it completely unrewarding and left. To be honest I would consider going back if it was improved but more likely I would stay as I am.
I am not about improving Null Industry but Improving Industry its self. The first step of this is to improve POSs and make them more attractive to industry types rather than just being a way to save some time researching BPOs as they are now.
And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7957
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:19:00 -
[803] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?
And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.
So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness? To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea. Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid. So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay. There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it. The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*. I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time. I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack). I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more. Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate. If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality. As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less. All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale. All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers! All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded. All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time. At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds. Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues. And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way. Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this. If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can. Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority. I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process. Just no!
The voice of privilege speaks. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:19:00 -
[804] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Regarding your comment about pissing in the wind, I consider myself a casual player these days, I make about 2bil a week, playing about 10h/week. I can't even think about competing with any serious builder or trader as we've all got the same base of operations. (NPC Stations)
So, 8-10B is casual now?
"Hey guys I buy my Supercarrier every 2-3 months I am casual, trust me!"
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:20:00 -
[805] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: The voice of privilege speaks.
... and it's a sad day when the voice of privilege is closer to the "common folk" in EvE than those who pretends to speak for a majority and even self nominate themselves to represent them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3897
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:24:00 -
[806] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk.
Even in the most capitalist contries, new blood are given a chance to grow and eventually complete against the established big guys. It's a generational refresh need.
By raising the bar to entry so much, you keep your already acquired privileges while denying others to even begin competing for their first 1-2 years of gaming.
You want to create an hard planted elite to belong to and put barriers in the face of potential new competitors. It's BAD. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:25:00 -
[807] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:
At the moment, industry as it is, it's broken when it comes to risk vs reward.
So you support the elimination of Tech 2 BPOs? |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:28:00 -
[808] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:...The first step of this is to improve POSs and make them more attractive... A 'Buff'... I like it.
PS. I don't have a POS either.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:32:00 -
[809] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec. Profit margin? Heck even in RL a small entity can easily make the same or better profit margins than a larger one due to the "small and agile and efficient" factors. Yet the large entity will field huge numbers and in the end the small entity will easily earn their Honda for their CEO, while the large entity with same margins will earn their Ferraris collection for their CEO. Ok so a real life analogy involving cars.
Toyota produces a lot of cars on a smallish profit margin. Nobel produce cars on a larger profit margin.
Toyota builds its own engines and uses suppliers for a lot of parts, these suppliers are forced to miniscule profit margins and Toyota's demands. Nobel buys its engine off someone else with no control over the profit margin on that engine or any of its other parts.
Nobel makes a lovely super sports car, for around 200,000 pounds. Yes they make money but sell few cars. Toyota make a lot less per unit but a lot more in total. Part of this being the profit from the Nobel is the wages for the builders while Toyota are on wages.
So whats the moral of this tale, owning your own manufacturing facilities allows you to be more competitive in the market place than those who do not. Allowing you to increase your profit margin.
As the small competitor for Toyota that owns no manufacturing facilities is who? (other may make nice cars but on most items of a similar type, they could not compete)
EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1731
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 14:39:00 -
[810] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?
And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.
So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness? To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea. Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid. So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay. There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it. The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*. I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time. I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack). I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more. Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate. If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality. As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less. All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale. All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers! All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded. All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time. At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds. Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues. And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way. Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this. If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can. Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority. I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process. Just no! The voice of privilege speaks. But after all of that I still dint here how the analogy of having to skill to max refine is somehow different to a newbie demanding that they should be able to compete with a player with PE 5 and 6.65 corp standings.
Also without the POS you would make slightly less profit, so all I can see is greed. You want for there to be no advantage to capital out lay and risk.
And changing from NPC facilities to PC is something that has been going on in this game for years. Ever heard of PI for example? EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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