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Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:39:00 -
[121] - Quote
re: mutually fun PvP
What if kills between wardec'd corps generated Concord LP using the faction warfare system?
Possibly with a higher rate of return for the defender than the attacker, to give them some motivation for actually getting out and killing the attackers? |
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
808
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:53:00 -
[122] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:It's not an exploit.
If people are leaving the corp you war decced en masse then mission accomplished, you won.
This! YOU WIN! Well played with your war.
You did want to destroy the corp right?
If you're just after killmails, you'd be in low sec / null sec.
Or are you an EThug?
--- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1115
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:04:00 -
[123] - Quote
You know, a thought occurred to me, which is pretty rare, I know. I've noticed an uptick in the number of "Wardec evasion fix it CCP" threads on the forums the last month or so, even though nothing has really changed in the mechanics in that time.
My thought was really a question - where is this coming from? And that makes me wonder if what's really happening is the BBD (Big Blue Doughnut) is starving the PvPers in nullsec of their fun, so they've come to highsec hoping to have some pew, only to realize that there even fewer people there to shoot.
I have to admit, if it wasn't for Unclaimed. and the occasional Unthinkables gang, there would be very few targets in our area of the map within what I call a reasonable roaming range (I'm not jumping 45 gates just for the off chance that something might explode - that's ludicrous). It just makes me think that maybe we're finally starting to see another effect of Sov Null being a giant hug fest for the most part (the ongoing war between Solar + friends against the N3 being the only large scale exception I know of).
Thoughts on that? The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
314
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:49:00 -
[124] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:re: mutually fun PvP
What if kills between wardec'd corps generated Concord LP using the faction warfare system?
Possibly with a higher rate of return for the defender than the attacker, to give them some motivation for actually getting out and killing the attackers?
I like it. But seems it should only apply to the defender. Attacker obviously already has a motivation to fight. Mutual wars can award it to both or neither. |
0Lona 0ltor
EldarRiders SCUM.
32
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:52:00 -
[125] - Quote
Yeah, how about we cut all the crap in this thread and implement a 7 day war follow for any one who craps themselves and drops corp? |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
314
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:53:00 -
[126] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: My thought was really a question - where is this coming from? And that makes me wonder if what's really happening is the BBD (Big Blue Doughnut) is starving the PvPers in nullsec of their fun, so they've come to highsec hoping to have some pew, only to realize that there even fewer people there to shoot.
Probably a bit true. There's not many people to shoot in null, because there aren't that many truly worthwhile activities in null. There's a 34 page threadnaught in GD about how unviable mining and industry is. Sanctums vs level 4 missions and Incursions is kindof a thing aswell. |
0Lona 0ltor
EldarRiders SCUM.
32
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:57:00 -
[127] - Quote
Adding this 7 day war follow while preventing vets from entering NPC corps would be a simple and easy to implement nerf to high sec. No longer will people be able to make zero risk isk. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
204
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:01:00 -
[128] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Yeah, how about we cut all the crap in this thread and implement a 7 day war follow for any one who craps themselves and drops corp?
war is between 2 entities, not between a corp and a single individual.
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Vin King
State War Academy Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:13:00 -
[129] - Quote
What's a wardec? 315 4 CSM 8 |
Whitehound
1064
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:26:00 -
[130] - Quote
Vin King wrote:What's a wardec? Better ask what's a war cry as this seems to have a new definition. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
560
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:49:00 -
[131] - Quote
Adaahh Gee wrote:Put yourself in the shoes of an average miner in Eve Ah, but the average miner/industrialist/mission runner/trader/whatever is in an NPC corp or a one man shell corp to evade wardecs! Only new or bad players or players looking for ship combat would choose to be a target for war in the first place.
The solution isn't to protect these awful corps, or to shut down a style of gameplay completely, but to involve more people who have the resources and skill to fight back. If these skilled players had a reason to use their resources and skill to prevent anything bad from happening to them during a wardec, we wouldn't have this issue of 70-80% of wardecs being grief wardecs.
When the most attractive (and pretty much only) option as a highsec wardec group is to beat up on new players, don't be surprised when that's all that happens. |
Whitehound
1064
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:54:00 -
[132] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Adaahh Gee wrote:Put yourself in the shoes of an average miner in Eve Ah, but the average miner/industrialist/mission runner/trader/whatever ... So far have war-decs caused tears with the average miners. Now look at all the tears by war-deccers. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1115
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:00:00 -
[133] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:
When the most attractive (and pretty much only) option as a highsec wardec group is to beat up on new players...
Your assumption is flawed.
The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
560
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:05:00 -
[134] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:EI Digin wrote:
When the most attractive (and pretty much only) option as a highsec wardec group is to beat up on new players...
Your assumption is flawed.
Is it? |
Zack Korth
Poked
238
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:08:00 -
[135] - Quote
lol so many tears, if you want to kill them badly enough, be a man and suicide gank them. you're just trying to war-dec high sec corps to explode haulers and steal assets- and your mad because they found an effortless work around? as opposed to gladly undocking jita 4-4 and handing over their hard earned iskies? ohhh poor you. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1115
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 20:14:00 -
[136] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:EI Digin wrote:
When the most attractive (and pretty much only) option as a highsec wardec group is to beat up on new players...
Your assumption is flawed. Is it?
Yes. While it might be the most attractive option (to you and yours), it is certainly not the only option available. There are a decent number of corps operating in highsec that won't disband because of a dec and contain experienced pilots.
You have to ask what your real motivation is for starting the war in the first place. If all you want is gudfites, dec another pvp alliance. They're the most likely to actually fight you, or they risk ruining their own reputation.
If you want to drive off a competitor, shooting them is actually not required to win the war - having them leave, or simply remain docked while you lay claim to their potential resources is winning, based on the initial goal.
Market rivals - deccing them is next to pointless anyway since dedicated trade characters rarely, if ever, undock. You'll have more impact by trying to identify and gank their shipments than you will be deccing them directly.
But if you wardec a five man industrial corp expecting them to man-up and provide you with gudfites, you're just deluding yourself. They won't do it (unless they're simply really into PvP or they're masochistic) - and they have absolutely no reason to. Even if the mechanic changed today, all that would happen is people would start having two sets of alts, one for wardecs in NPC corps, and one for non wardecs in their player corps. It wouldn't change their behavior a wit - just which character the log into. The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
560
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 21:28:00 -
[137] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Yes. While it might be the most attractive option (to you and yours), it is certainly not the only option available. There are a decent number of corps operating in highsec that won't disband because of a dec and contain experienced pilots. Not nearly enough though, because 70-80% of the wardecs are "grief wars". If there were more good corps out there, this number would be a lot lower.
De'Veldrin wrote: If you want to drive off a competitor, shooting them is actually not required to win the war - having them leave, or simply remain docked while you lay claim to their potential resources is winning, based on the initial goal.
Market rivals - deccing them is next to pointless anyway since dedicated trade characters rarely, if ever, undock. You'll have more impact by trying to identify and gank their shipments than you will be deccing them directly
But if you wardec a five man industrial corp expecting them to man-up and provide you with gudfites, you're just deluding yourself. They won't do it (unless they're simply really into PvP or they're masochistic) - and they have absolutely no reason to. Even if the mechanic changed today, all that would happen is people would start having two sets of alts, one for wardecs in NPC corps, and one for non wardecs in their player corps. It wouldn't change their behavior a wit - just which character the log into.
Sure people can live in smaller packs, and choose not to use diplomacy tools like finding players like them to assist during wars or joining an alliance. But if they are wardecced, they can use in game mechanics (the ally system and mercenaries, arguably the bounty system) to provide gudfites without ever having to undock.
Do you know why hardly anyone hires mercenaries, or bothers to look for allies? It's because those who are wardecced are poor, inexperienced and have a very small amount of contacts. Most of the players who have the tools to hire mercenaries or to create power blocs simply don't have to, because they receive the same (if not better) benefit for no cost. There would be a lot less grief wars if mercs were more affordable, which is only solvable by having more competition (if there's higher demand, there will be more supply), or if older players that could afford mercs would hire them and have their protection ability "trickle down" on younger and poorer players who they enjoy playing with. |
Whitehound
1066
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Posted - 2013.03.01 21:41:00 -
[138] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Do you know why hardly anyone hires mercenaries, or bothers to look for allies? For every war where a party is open for allies can one find (on average) one ally.
Why then care for those who are not open for allies? They might just be sitting docked or not login at all.
Seems just working fine. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
626
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Posted - 2013.03.01 21:46:00 -
[139] - Quote
EI Digin wrote: Do you know why hardly anyone hires mercenaries, or bothers to look for allies? It's because those who are wardecced are poor, inexperienced and have a very small amount of contacts. Most of the players who have the tools to hire mercenaries or to create power blocs simply don't have to, because they receive the same (if not better) benefit for no cost. There would be a lot less grief wars if mercs were more affordable, which is only solvable by having more competition (if there's higher demand, there will be more supply), or if older players that could afford mercs would hire them and have their protection ability "trickle down" on younger and poorer players who they enjoy playing with.
A greater reason for not hiring allies is that it's an inferior solution to just dropping corp. Hiring mercenaries doesn't allow you to bypass the fact that there is a war going on. It still keeps you partially locked down. In the end you are paying isk to respond to someones aggression when you could avoid it altogether. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3426
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Posted - 2013.03.01 21:56:00 -
[140] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:EI Digin wrote: Do you know why hardly anyone hires mercenaries, or bothers to look for allies? It's because those who are wardecced are poor, inexperienced and have a very small amount of contacts. Most of the players who have the tools to hire mercenaries or to create power blocs simply don't have to, because they receive the same (if not better) benefit for no cost. There would be a lot less grief wars if mercs were more affordable, which is only solvable by having more competition (if there's higher demand, there will be more supply), or if older players that could afford mercs would hire them and have their protection ability "trickle down" on younger and poorer players who they enjoy playing with.
A greater reason for not hiring allies is that it's an inferior solution to just dropping corp. Hiring mercenaries doesn't allow you to bypass the fact that there is a war going on. It still keeps you partially locked down. In the end you are paying isk to respond to someones aggression when you could avoid it altogether. Lrn2trvialize"highsec pvp"
Nerf ganking as well. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1659
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 22:24:00 -
[141] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Adding this 7 day war follow while preventing vets from entering NPC corps would be a simple and easy to implement nerf to high sec. No longer will people be able to make zero risk isk. So they would just play an alt for the duration. What you got all their alts decced too? So they change to their other account. What you got all those decced too? So they start a buddy account and keep everyone in an NPC corp until they are too "old". Then cancel the account and start another. If "too old" is defined by skill points, then just do not train them very far and the need to cycle accounts goes away.
If a player does not want to participate in a war, you cannot make them.
Edit: Also note that the most isk is made by traders. A basic trader requires little skill points, never undocks, and makes bucket loads of ISK, totally risk free (other than the $15 per month we all risk, one way or another). http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
626
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 22:36:00 -
[142] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Lrn2trvialize"highsec pvp"
Nerf ganking as well.
Not sure where that came from. |
Silvara Nocturn
Nocturn Industries
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 08:58:00 -
[143] - Quote
If you blindly wardec someone without assessing the situation then you have deservedly lost your isk. When you attack a shell corporation they are going to burn it to the ground and leave. That's what they are designed to do. Maybe you might actually have to think about how to deal damage to industry operations instead of just camping their station. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
371
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 11:23:00 -
[144] - Quote
Silvara Nocturn wrote:If you blindly wardec someone without assessing the situation then you have deservedly lost your isk. When you attack a shell corporation they are going to burn it to the ground and leave. That's what they are designed to do. Maybe you might actually have to think about how to deal damage to industry operations instead of just camping their station.
Exactly. Hisec wars arent supposed to emulate real wars... that's what nullsec is for. It resembles corporate rivalry in a universe so grimdark that shooting the other guy becomes a legal action. The dec is against an entity. The point is to hamper that entity in space-related activity. Should their members leave to evade it, you weaken that entity. Should it disband because of it, you win.
For effective corporate warfare you have to do your research. Say you discover corp A uses shell corp B to rake in ISK. Any dec against A would leave B unaffected. Find out how they operate: say that A operates in hisec while B maintains a POS in lowsec. Your most efective option would be not to wardec A, but to set up a siege against that POS and take the sec hit for it. That means corp A is going to lose a large chunck of income, while you lose only a marginal amount of sec status.
Also, the wardec system is working better then everyone thinks. While people have a hard time griefing the snot out of a specific individual, it works the same in real life too. Lately lots of banks and financial insitutions have gonna pretty much belly-up: yet individuals in high positions simply get high positions and well paid jobs elsewhere. So it's a pointless fight anyway doesn't mean you can't have fun. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
206
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:52:00 -
[145] - Quote
Whitehound, please add me to your contacts so I can eve mail you.
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Leo Saber
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.03.05 17:23:00 -
[146] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Whitehound, please add me to your contacts so I can eve mail you.
o/ RF! nice work on trying to seduce Push! might see you around and apply some pressure on you aswell :) Hope to see you soon in a JF or in a ... more expensive haul :D |
Sorlac
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2013.03.05 17:56:00 -
[147] - Quote
I agree that you shouldn't be able to avoid war-decs by dropping from corp; after they introduce a mechanic in which I can pay 50M isk to force another corp to mine for me for 7 days. Could even set it up so that they can hire a mining corp to do their mining for them if they want. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:01:00 -
[148] - Quote
Sorlac wrote:I agree that you shouldn't be able to avoid war-decs by dropping from corp; after they introduce a mechanic in which I can pay 50M isk to force another corp to mine for me for 7 days. Could even set it up so that they can hire a mining corp to do their mining for them if they want. Interesting idea. So they'd still dock up for 7 days? Or "hire" a one-man alt corp to stay docked for 7 days? I am a nullsec zealot. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
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Posted - 2013.03.05 18:11:00 -
[149] - Quote
EI Digin wrote: You're not fooling anyone, you're just abusing the fact that you can drop a form of non-consensual PVP at your whim, which is an exploit because there's nothing anyone can to do stop you.
It is not abuse. It is not an exploit.
It is working as intended.
If you could war dec a corp, and that locked all the players into the war, the carebears would either 1) never join a player corp and just stay NPC from the start. or 2) quit playing when they found they were at constant war without an easy way to return to playing the game the way tehy want to enjoy playing it.
CCP gives you mechanisms to mess with others, and then gives those others mechanisms to avoid being messed with.
Bottom line is, if you can stop an industrialist from making a living, that industrialist won't be able to fund his accounts with PLEX, resulting in many of the industrialists dropping their subscriptions.
CCP has created high sec, NPC corps, CONCORD and all the other mechanisms, to give carebears a way to be able to go about their business, making ISK, buying PLEX, and keeping their accounts funded.
Exploit? NO!
Working as intended! |
Sorlac
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
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Posted - 2013.03.05 18:17:00 -
[150] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sorlac wrote:I agree that you shouldn't be able to avoid war-decs by dropping from corp; after they introduce a mechanic in which I can pay 50M isk to force another corp to mine for me for 7 days. Could even set it up so that they can hire a mining corp to do their mining for them if they want. Interesting idea. So they'd still dock up for 7 days? Or "hire" a one-man alt corp to stay docked for 7 days?
Would probably have to set-up so that each person in the forced-mining corp could go do their own thing when they have someone in the hired mining corp to cover for them. I kind of just added that last sentence on last minute; there to represent the hiring a merc corp to pew pew for you in a war-dec. |
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