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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Khergit Deserters
729
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Posted - 2013.02.27 19:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
As we know, corps can only tax their members' mission bounty income. No tax on income from sale of items, mining, player bounties, or any other source of income.
This creates an unbalanced tax burden on the corp mission runners. Corp members like me who just do invention, manufacturing, trading and PVP make isk that's never taxed. Does anyone know the game design/game mechanics reason for this? There must be one. If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1926
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Posted - 2013.02.27 19:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not again...
Typical tax whine....
And character blocked.
Miners dont generate income. They get income from selling which is taxed by some ISK sink tax.
Next time...use your brain before comming here whining on something that is NOT unbalanced.
1. Market transactions are TAXED. 2. Nobody is forcing people to run missions/rat. 3. Nobody is forcing you to stay with a corp that ask for taxes. You can creatr your own private 0% tax corp.
Edit:
NPC corp dweller whining about taxes...you do know that NPC corp taxes are just ISK sinks, player corps actually use tax income to pay for things. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1612
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Posted - 2013.02.27 19:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I hate taxes, so when I became CEO, I set the tax rate to 0%.
As the corp still needed ISK to operate, I then got all the members to pay a lump sum.
After that, members donated to the corp as needed, and as much as they were willing to. |
Recury en Distel
en Distel Family
3
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Posted - 2013.02.27 19:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Not again...
Typical tax whine....
And character blocked.
Miners dont generate income. They get income from selling which is taxed by some ISK sink tax.
Next time...use your brain before comming here whining on something that is NOT unbalanced.
1. Market transactions are TAXED. 2. Nobody is forcing people to run missions/rat. 3. Nobody is forcing you to stay with a corp that ask for taxes. You can creatr your own private 0% tax corp.
Edit:
NPC corp dweller whining about taxes...you do know that NPC corp taxes are just ISK sinks, player corps actually use tax income to pay for things.
THATS WHAT U GET FOR ASKING A REASONABLE QUESTION IN A REASONABLE FASHION U DUMB WHINER |
Khergit Deserters
730
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't see anywhere that market transactions can be taxed. Can anybody confirm?
Here's what an ISD said in this thread from 9/2012: "Tax Rate refers to how much of a Corporation member's income goes into the Corporation's wallet. It's however limited to Mission Rewards, Bonus Rewards and NPC Bounty and applies only, if the amount is 100,000.00 ISK or higher"
Basically, the reason for my question is: -I'm an officer of a corp and we have a tax (to cover ship replacement for members) -I rarely do missions anymore, so I rarely pay corp tax. But I make more isk/month doing indy stuff than the new guys running do missions. The corp isn't getting any of my income at all (except for what I donate). It's not a fair situation for the mission runners, and it's not efficient for the corp's finances either. -I've asked here before for ideas on creative ideas for ways to have miners, indies and traders contribute to corp finances. Never got any specific, practical idas though. Anything described involved some loose system of people donating isk. -So this time I'm just wondering why the game only taxes mission-related income. There must be some game design/game mechanics reason. Because it seems like just putting a transactions tax on everyone would work fine. If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1926
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:I don't see anywhere that market transactions can be taxed. Can anybody confirm? Here's what an ISD said in this thread from 9/2012: "Tax Rate refers to how much of a Corporation member's income goes into the Corporation's wallet. It's however limited to Mission Rewards, Bonus Rewards and NPC Bounty and applies only, if the amount is 100,000.00 ISK or higher" Basically, the reason for my question is: -I'm an officer of a corp and we have a tax (to cover ship replacement for members) -I rarely do missions anymore, so I rarely pay corp tax. But I make more isk/month doing indy stuff than the new guys running do missions. The corp isn't getting any of my income at all (except for what I donate). It's not a fair situation for the mission runners, and it's not efficient for the corp's finances either. -I've asked here before for ideas on creative ideas for ways to have miners, indies and traders contribute to corp finances. Never got any specific, practical idas though. Anything described involved some loose system of people donating isk. -So this time I'm just wondering why the game only taxes mission-related income. There must be some game design/game mechanics reason. Because it seems like just putting a transactions tax on everyone would work fine.
Sell something
You will see a tax payment to Secure something in your wallet
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1612
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Sell something
You will see a tax payment to Secure something in your wallet Secure Commerce Commission (SCC)
EVElopedia wrote:The SCC is responsible for regulating and monitoring all trade transactions that take place on space stations. It has agents on all stations that record the transactions and they also offer courier and escrow services to make trade smooth. |
Khergit Deserters
730
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Right, that tax is going to an NPC corp, not the seller's player corp. (Being a semi-RP dork, I like to imagine it funds CONCORD). But I still can't think of a game mechanics reason why corps can only tax mission-running activities. If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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BobFenner
Black Hole Runners Brainfarts
60
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
1 - Large mission blitzing op for all members for a few hours a month. 2 - Ask wealthier members who don't run missions to donate a couple of hundred million each month each. 3 - Charge your industry members higher fees for using your POS labs and manufacturing slots.
These are just a few ideas in a few minutes whilst bored at work.
I am sure with a bit of thought and creativity you can come up with others tailored to your corp requirements. My missus thinks of EvE as 'the other woman'. :) |
J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1926
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Right, that tax is going to an NPC corp, not the seller's player corp. (Being a semi-RP dork, I like to imagine it funds CONCORD). But I still can't think of a game mechanics reason why corps can only tax mission-running activities.
Like said...MIners don't generate money...neither does your invention itself
It's the selling that does...and no way to **** up the entire economy by taxing selling cause there is no way to see what profit they gain out of it...
You clearly didn't think it through and should seriously more look at how your corporation works.
My previous corp I was in did have a Ore buy back system where the corp would buy ore for Jita - corp tax % price...And most (if not all) miners used it, so that they contributed to the corp.
If your miners etc. don't contribute to the corp, then ask if they want to by sending some ISK themself...if not, make mandatory mining ops where all ore (and thus profit) goes to corp. But if we have to point that kinds of stuff out to you, good luck with the corp.
Oooh, you want to use the POS labs...It will cost you "x" ISK/hour to use them...is income from a non mission runner.
As there are plenty of ways to tax the non mission runners. The lack of seeing it doesn't mean the game is wrong, it's your vision. |
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voetius
L V B Industries
25
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Posted - 2013.02.27 20:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs. |
J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1926
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Posted - 2013.02.27 21:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs.
OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help |
Khergit Deserters
732
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Posted - 2013.02.27 22:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs.
OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help LOL Thanks but no thanks, no need for more non-help. Your biggest contribution has been to not read the OP, make a false assumption, tnen create an initial derail of the thread. Thereafter you've helped by providing erroneous information, and then obstinately defending your rectitude with some fish flopping. Thanks but no thanks, amiga/amigo.
Again, the question was: Is there a game design/game mechanics reason for only taxing mission-running activities? But no matter, never mind, was just a rhetorical question I guess.
If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
315
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Posted - 2013.02.27 22:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:As we know, corps can only tax their members' mission bounty income. No tax on income from sale of items, mining, player bounties, or any other source of income.
This creates an unbalanced tax burden on the corp mission runners. Corp members like me who just do invention, manufacturing, trading and PVP make isk that's never taxed. Does anyone know the game design/game mechanics reason for this? There must be one.
The reason is that if corps can put a tax in the market transactions of their members, then that doesn't just mean that they get a share whenever mission runner members sell their loot and salvage. It will greatly hurt those corp members who are traders by profession, because any such tax will cut into their profit margins. Say I can buy minerals for 20 million ISK, and build some stuff which I then sell for 20.5 million ISK. My profit is 2.5%. If I have to pay 0.1 million ISK in sales tax to my corp, then my profit drops from 0.5 million to 0.4 million, or from 2.5% to 2%.
And keep in mind, I've invested lots of ISK into being able to build this stuff. I've bought Blueprint Originals, which I've then spent time and money to improve with research. Those 2.5%, which your proposal might reduce to 2%, aren't really profit per se. They're the return on a long-term investment that I've made. I spent a lot of ISK setting up this production business, and now the business is paying dividends.
A corporate sales tax would hugely educe those dividends, meaning that the time it takes me to re-coup my investment (say, 3 billion ISK) might get drastically increased, maybe (just to throw a random figure on the table) from 14 months to 40 months.
Of course there is a solution, which is to set the possible range of the corporate sales tax very low, so that it's only a tiny fraction of a percent. Even an amateur trader like myself has a turnover of maybe a dozen billion ISK per month. 0.1% of that in corporate tax would be 12 million ISK. I'd still consider 0.1% to be a high tax, so my preference would be for player corps to be allowed to adjust corporate tax in 0.005% increments, to a maximum of, say, 0.25%.
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Mist Errious
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.02.28 04:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:[quote=J'Poll][quote=voetius] Again, the question was: Is there a game design/game mechanics reason for only taxing mission-running activities? But no matter, never mind, was just a rhetorical question I guess.
One reason can be that RL doesn't work like that. If you sell privately, your employer doesn't tax you. Also, you are taxed if you use corp facilities (at least if the corp owns them). Again, looks like a RL analogy. Then, you would be able to put up ore/salvage buyback-schemes. I've run such ones that pay Jita -15% which in effect includes a tax (apart from the fact that members don't have to haul **** 20 jumps through null. |
Motherthukker
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2013.02.28 05:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs.
OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help
Do you roleplay being an idiot or is that really you? |
Dasola
Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire
155
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Posted - 2013.02.28 07:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Be glad you can tax even the mission runners. Theyre usually the one that jump the ship fastest when wardeck hits.. This ismy experience...
No seriously, market transaction are not subject to corporation taxes, becouse that would kill trade in eve, leading to only npc doing market orders anymore... None is going to do trades if theres nothing but loss to gain there..
Nothing there prevents you to ask members of corporation to donate isk, some of their time to activities in order to gain some iskies to corporation.
miners? Just ask them to donate some ore to corp. Heck you could setup mining ship loan program just for this
I have had privledge to lead small corp in past for a while. It was newer problem to come up new ways to gain isk or other resources from members... It was much more difficult to figure out ways corporation could provide also benefits to members in balanced matter. We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do... |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1037
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Posted - 2013.02.28 08:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
SCC handles all sales taxes & broker's fees, no exceptions - doesn't matter if you're NPC or PC corporation.
Also, it's not just bounties but also mission payouts that get taxed. In both cases, however, it is only taxed if the payout it over 100,000ISK. So really new players doing L1 missions probably won't be paying anything. Regardless, in the case of NPC corp then that is the flat 11% all NPC corps charge. For a PC corp then you pay whatever that corp tax rate into to company coffers. EvE Forum Bingo |
J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1928
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Posted - 2013.02.28 11:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Motherthukker wrote:J'Poll wrote:voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs.
OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help Do you roleplay being an idiot or is that really you? Me an idiot.
If you've read post 5 of this thread you would have seen this is an alt.
But clearly you have the attention span of avgoldfish and cant read more then the OP. |
Eliniale
co-operative resource extraction
99
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Posted - 2013.02.28 11:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Motherthukker wrote:J'Poll wrote:voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps?
I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs.
OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help Do you roleplay being an idiot or is that really you? Me an idiot. If you've read post 5 of this thread you would have seen this is an alt. But clearly you have the attention span of avgoldfish and cant read more then the OP.
Although I don't always see eye to eye with J'poll I cannot help but utterly agree with her in this case. The OP doesn't want to be helped to find ways around the tax rate.
What the OP really wants is for us to pat him on the back and tell him that he's right in that corp taxes as they are are flawed, and should apply to miners, traders, etc. as well.
Well I'm sorry OP, I disagree, creativity (hell even just looking around) will show there are many alternatives for a corp to make isk that DOES NOT rely on mission only taxes.
(This is a lot more ranty that I normally would be, but you sorta earned it) System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7904
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Posted - 2013.02.28 11:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Corp tax on market orders would be beyond trivial to evade; I am in your corp; I sell all my stuff to my 1-man corp market alt for 1 ISK; your corp collects tax on 1 ISK. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
52
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Posted - 2013.02.28 14:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Again, the question was: Is there a game design/game mechanics reason for only taxing mission-running activities? But no matter, never mind, was just a rhetorical question I guess.
And the answer is yes. Its where the isk is created. Trading and Indy stuff doesn't create isk. |
Khergit Deserters
745
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eliniale wrote:J'Poll wrote:Motherthukker wrote:J'Poll wrote:voetius wrote: I notice that the OP is in an NPC corp, so I'm not sure if the OP is asking about tax on missions for NPC corps or for player run corps? I'm probably in the same camp as some of the posters above and think that if a player corp is in high sec and is not running an SRP for PvP activity then the tax rate should be set very low, i.e. enough to cover office / pos costs. OP said he was officer of a player corp and that makes this an forum alt...which already means I'm not very willing to help Do you roleplay being an idiot or is that really you? Me an idiot. If you've read post 5 of this thread you would have seen this is an alt. But clearly you have the attention span of avgoldfish and cant read more then the OP. Although I don't always see eye to eye with J'poll I cannot help but utterly agree with her in this case. The OP doesn't want to be helped to find ways around the tax rate. What the OP really wants is for us to pat him on the back and tell him that he's right in that corp taxes as they are are flawed, and should apply to miners, traders, etc. as well. Well I'm sorry OP, I disagree, creativity (hell even just looking around) will show there are many alternatives for a corp to make isk that DOES NOT rely on mission only taxes. (This is a lot more ranty that I normally would be, but you sorta earned it) Wow, you nailed it. I am seeking the approval of random people in EVE New Citizens Q&A by posting a cleverly-disguised whine about the tax system. Just a whine, with no original ideas for ways to improve it. This attention/approval-seeking behavior likely comes from low self-esteem, possibly the result of inadequate parental bonding in early childhood. Counseling with a trained professional and/or lobotomization is recommended. And for lawd's sake make him stop using that forums toon he's used for 1.5 years and post with his main!
People who posted about the effect of taxing market transactions, that makes sense. A tax could completely wipe out the profit margin (benefit) of the trade. But I suppose the market would respond by prices of items going up. The problem is traders in low tax corps could undercut players in high tax corps. Plus there's also the exploit Malcanis mentioned.
Question answered-- there are game mechanics reasons for why only mission-running is corp taxed. o7 If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
762
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Posted - 2013.02.28 19:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP, nope there's no way of doing this within the current system (as silly as it is) apart from setting up your own system. Depending on how much the corp spends for its members (not all corps need higher tax) There's an easy way of contributing.
Set tax to 0 and have every member pay a monthly fee based on his SP, possibly with a multiplier that's agreed to based how much much the corp actually needs to spend. So a 1 mil SP newbie pays 1 mil x multiplier and a 20 mil SP one 20x multiplier, etc etc. It's probably the easiest and most "honest" way of doing it. It only works with relatively small corps ofcourse.
p.s. J: less rage and more reading the OP :) Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1930
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Posted - 2013.02.28 19:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Wow, you nailed it. I am seeking the approval of random people in EVE New Citizens Q&A by posting a cleverly-disguised whine about the tax system. Just a whine, with no original ideas for ways to improve it. This attention/approval-seeking behavior likely comes from low self-esteem, possibly the result of inadequate parental bonding in early childhood. Counseling with a trained professional and/or lobotomization is recommended. And for lawd's sake make him stop using that forums toon he's used for 1.5 years and post with his main! (But seriously, I can understand if people thought my post was a whine. You see enough whines in EO forums, you start automatically expecting to see yet another one). People who posted about the effect of taxing market transactions, that makes sense. A tax could completely wipe out the profit margin (benefit) of the trade. But I suppose the market would respond by prices of items going up. The problem is traders in low tax corps could undercut players in high tax corps. Plus there's also the exploit Malcanis mentioned. Question answered-- there are game mechanics reasons for why only mission-running is corp taxed. o7
And it took you 2 pages to finally recognize what has be said WELL before that. |
J'Poll
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1930
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Posted - 2013.02.28 20:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote: p.s. J: less rage and more reading the OP :)
You know my opinion on alt posting.
And then this thread being utterly useless as there are plenty of creative ways a corp leadership should think about them self to tax everybody equally. EVE isn't hand holding, it asks for you using your brain cells....then use them and come up with your own way to get income from everybody. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
762
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
He is asking a genuine, logical question. The fact he uses an alt for it is here nor there and this being the newbie forum genuine questions are there to be answered, not to get raged at. If you want to rage go do it somewhere else. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1995
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Posted - 2013.02.28 20:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
I have removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
369
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Posted - 2013.03.01 00:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Again, the question was: Is there a game design/game mechanics reason for only taxing mission-running activities? But no matter, never mind, was just a rhetorical question I guess.
My guess would be to promote a social dynamic. Why is it hard to find a corp that suits you? Because of their many differences. Let there be democracies, bureaucracies, anarchy and tiranny! There are many things with which you can make ISK, it's about piecing together what you and your friends can come up with given your collective SP, experience and knowledge. People are willing to sacrifice some of their playtime, attention span and ISK in various degrees. Having to come up with your own systems introduces the need for trust and delegation once you grow as a corp. The more you are willing to contribute as an individual the stronger your group may become, if collective efforts are properly consolidated by corp management. I nearly puked at that last sentence... it's just about you trusting your buddies to put their stuffs in the right hanger and deal with consequences when they don't. |
Khergit Deserters
752
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
OK, now that this unruly thread has gotten its spanking and spent its time sitting in the corner...
So, to summarize what's been said about why the game only allows corp tax on mission running things: -Mission bounties and agent rewards are the only real sources of new isk coming into the game. (Mined minerals, datacores, etc. are also sources of "something coming out of nothing" and being added into the game world. But they're not isk, they're things that can be sold for isk. There's an important distinction there).
-By assumption, the only other way to tax corp members' activities would be through taxing their market transactions. Miners taxed when the sell minerals. Manufacturers and traders taxed when the sell items. PVPers taxed when the sell loot. The problem with taxing transactions is profit margins are already slim for traders. A corp tax on sales could make mfg or trade not worth doing.
On that second point, it seems that if there was a transactions tax, the cost of the tax could be passed on to buyers. In other words, since the sellers' costs would be higher, prices eventually go higher to reflect that. The issue might be that sellers in low tax corps could undercut sellers in high tax corps. Which would cause sellers to want to go to low tax corps. Which might eliminate the benefits of a corp transactions tax anyway-- if people leave your corp because you have one, there's no point in having the tax. If you help someone when they're in trouble, they will remember you when they're in trouble again.
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