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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Mark A
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Posted - 2005.08.08 23:51:00 -
[1]
The news post says using light drones against POS guns is bugged and now considered an exploit. However [5] got penalised for using medium drones. There were a handful of light drones deployed, but only a tiny percentage, ie standard BS PvP drone bay. So which is it?
Ofc it's all moot now given both the POSs were retaken, and not using drones actually worked out better; the ridiculous lag was causing guns to take 1-2 minutes to reload and remote reppers/shield transfers didn't activate in time to be useful.
But just like to clarify this point, ie is using med/heavy drones to draw fire still legal, or are all drone vs. POS uses banned now? Is it the inability of the L guns to hit the drones or the drones to hit the control tower that's the key issue here?
There is also the grey area of deploying drones around your ship while at a POS, as a defensive measure against enemy ships in system (whether in a BS or a Moros). They'll still get targetted by the POS guns, so does that come under the same category?
I don't think [5] will be using drones against POSs at all now, but should we call 'sploit if we see someone else using med/heavies against one of our POSs?
TIA.
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Killmail wh÷re. |
Bombaman
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Posted - 2005.08.09 00:42:00 -
[2]
WEll if they dont allow you to use drones at all when attacking a pos, that pretty much has just Nerfed the Moros to Fountain and back, seeming its 35 Drones are suppose to be its defence when pos attacking (attacking enemy fleet, not the pos)
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:30:00 -
[3]
I am really having a hard time understanding the logic of this from CCP. My background in in Anti-Ship missile defense systems for the US Navy, and one of the primary defense tactics have been using decoy systems to spoof targetting systems.
This is not just deploying chaff, but IR decoys, and repeaters decoys that mimic large ships and mask smaller ones from being targetting by terminal guidance systems.
Submarines have decoys that mimic the signature of full size ship, was well as noise makers that draw in incomming torpedoes or causing problems to firing solutions.
During WWII the allies created huge armies of inflatable tankes and heavy vehicles to fool German recon' aircraft. Montgomery used similar tactics to defeat Rommel in Africa.
I have deployed drones on many occassions to complicate the targetting solution of both NPC and players. Let them think about those 8 Ogres comming at you while you lock on to my Thorax.
Now I can not deploy a time honored tactic against a POS, because someone relied too much on the station defense and not enough on getting out there and destroying the drones with an opposing fleet.
Compound that with the WAY that the situation was handled. This has been a bad month for the professional reputation of CCP; marry this up with the poor performance of the server problems of July and you have a serious crisis.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Derran
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY I am really having a hard time understanding the logic of this from CCP. My background in in Anti-Ship missile defense systems for the US Navy, and one of the primary defense tactics have been using decoy systems to spoof targetting systems.
This is not just deploying chaff, but IR decoys, and repeaters decoys that mimic large ships and mask smaller ones from being targetting by terminal guidance systems.
Submarines have decoys that mimic the signature of full size ship, was well as noise makers that draw in incomming torpedoes or causing problems to firing solutions.
During WWII the allies created huge armies of inflatable tankes and heavy vehicles to fool German recon' aircraft. Montgomery used similar tactics to defeat Rommel in Africa.
I have deployed drones on many occassions to complicate the targetting solution of both NPC and players. Let them think about those 8 Ogres comming at you while you lock on to my Thorax.
Now I can not deploy a time honored tactic against a POS, because someone relied too much on the station defense and not enough on getting out there and destroying the drones with an opposing fleet.
Compound that with the WAY that the situation was handled. This has been a bad month for the professional reputation of CCP; marry this up with the poor performance of the server problems of July and you have a serious crisis.
So I take it using a Moros and deploying 25-30 light drones at a time while you pound the POS isn't a bit unfair? It would give a huge advantage to the Moros for POS destruction over any other dreadnaught especially as single dreadnaught against a POS. But imagine 2 Moros each with that many drones. Technically, any POS commander would have to be insane to target drones that can't even scratch it and that they can't hit instead of the dreadnaught which, if dead, would render the drones inert anyway. Players certainly wouldn't do that and considering how much a POS costs, it shouldn't be that easy to kill one and take advantage of the dumb AI. There has to be a measure of fairness there when weighed against the cost. I don't know if there is a better solution but currently this is probably the most fair.
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:56:00 -
[5]
If I read correctly - there were a number of ships in the bubble attempting to deploy a turret - why did they not attack the drones instead of adding to the problem?
Seems to me they were relying too much on the station guns.
Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man... Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
shakaZ XIV
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:59:00 -
[6]
Quote: Now I can not deploy a time honored tactic against a POS, because someone relied too much on the station defense and not enough on getting out there and destroying the drones with an opposing fleet.
That's exactly what bothers me aswell. People want to rely just on some glorified npc (the POS) to do all the fighting for them.
Anyway, would be nice to get an official answer to Mark's questions.
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Del Narveux
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:05:00 -
[7]
Indeed...I see a serious issue with dominix/mega use in pos combat depending on the specifics of the ruling. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 09/08/2005 02:27:58
Originally by: Bombaman WEll if they dont allow you to use drones at all when attacking a pos, that pretty much has just Nerfed the Moros to Fountain and back, seeming its 35 Drones are suppose to be its defence when pos attacking (attacking enemy fleet, not the pos)
Drones deal no damage to the tower anyways so the Moros came pre-nerfed.
Oh, one other thing, look up the damage on capital siege blasters.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:40:00 -
[9]
simple answer is quick firing anti drone guns on POS that simple
Make sure they cant hit frigs - add a couple of slots extra to POS that can just fit anti drone guns.
Re tweak the AI to target drones with small drone guns if fitted only - large guns cannot and will not fire on Drones also.
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Malais
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Posted - 2005.08.09 03:47:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Malais on 09/08/2005 03:47:49
Quote: As many of you may be aware of, there is a problem with POS defence units and their reaction to light drones. POS guns do not currently react as they should to light drones, but this is being worked on and will be changed as soon as possible.
I don't understand how they can put out such a pointed release, and then give penalities for using mediums and heavies since they aren't even mentioned.
I'm just guessing, but the fact you had ANY lights out is why you got warned.
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Jaydom
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Posted - 2005.08.09 04:08:00 -
[11]
I belive its an exploit cause there is no counter..but there are a lot of things you cant really counter in EVE that aren't.
An anti-drone flak cannon would fix this right quick.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.08.09 04:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: theRaptor on 09/08/2005 04:38:03
Originally by: Jaydom I belive its an exploit cause there is no counter..but there are a lot of things you cant really counter in EVE that aren't.
An anti-drone flak cannon would fix this right quick.
A smart bombing cruiser would fix it right quick. But people would rather cower inside the POS shields then fight. I remember when CCP where talking about how people would have to actively defend POS, and that the guns and hardened mode where just to deter casual attacks and mid-night stealth raids.
That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:11:00 -
[13]
POS owners are under the impression that since they put so much money and time into getting one, it should have a bright and shiny win button anchored next to the control tower. This way they don't have to risk their fleet when under attack.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Xaarist
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Posted - 2005.08.09 06:56:00 -
[14]
i have to add to the discussion that on our last POS attack our gang did not launch any drones within the first 1,5 hours. there were two small autocannon batteries and two medium artillery batteries at the POS. the small autocannons ceased fire after about half an hour, maybe they were out of ammo. the medium artillery kept firing even if some of us released their drones. thus were mostly medium and heavy drones and the artillery hit them so we lost some of them. nothing confusing about this, that is the way it should work, isn't it? ok, half an hour after the drones were released (only about 15 drones altogether) the medium artillery stopped firing, too. but still i guess it had to do with missing ammo, not with confusion due to drone deployment. altogether i sum it up in the following: the POS's defences worked with and without drones deployed the way they are supposed to do. they hit pretty hard and so on...
it was stated that the exploit is dealing with light drones, and i think it is meant exactly the way it was written. LIGHT drones only are considered an exploit when deployed during a POS attack. everything else would just make no sense.
if you can outtank the POS defences you win, if you can'T you loose. drones won't change a thing. we never were in danger of loosing a ship because the guns are cycling targets very fast. this counts for a small POS, but should be the same with large ones, too (for the drones) ---------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is an alien dressed as Bunny to secretly gain world domination. |
Mark A
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Posted - 2005.08.09 08:21:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mark A on 09/08/2005 08:21:24 Also I forgot to ask, is using drones against small/med guns ok still or not? I.e. is it just small drones against large guns specifically, or any use of drones at any sort of POS that is banned now? Oh, and what about the control towers themselves, what do they count as?
BTW to anyone who still thinks we knew exactly how this stuff worked (or rather didn't) in advance, think again... .
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Killmail wh÷re. |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:57:00 -
[16]
I think the point is that POS turrets cycle targets. This is fine for gate/station sentries where CONCORD can get involved, but on a POS - fooling a turret to track something that it has no hope if hitting is considered an expoit.
A possible solution is to only allow turrets to lock targets that it has a hope of hitting. But include some degree of intelligence if there is no other means of defending a POS.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:26:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Vishnej on 09/08/2005 13:30:02
Originally by: FireFoxx80 I think the point is that POS turrets cycle targets. This is fine for gate/station sentries where CONCORD can get involved, but on a POS - fooling a turret to track something that it has no hope if hitting is considered an expoit.
A possible solution is to only allow turrets to lock targets that it has a hope of hitting. But include some degree of intelligence if there is no other means of defending a POS.
Just like fooling a rat battleship with a nasty high-velocity inty/assault frig?
If they want to implement firing rules, well, IMPLEMENT THEM ALREADY WHEN YOU GET BACK FROM VACATION. IMO, each gun should be A) linkable into AI groups, and B) have individual firing rules set up. So I should be able to set my four small pulse lasers to fire on Drones only, and my large artillery arrays to fire on Dreadnaughts first, battleships second.
Just an order of precedence, and the ability to link, say, two turrets a web and a warp disruptor together to fire on a random intys first, then when all the intys are dead assault frigs, then cruisers.
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Firebyrd
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:32:00 -
[18]
i've never attacked a POS but my take on the blog was this.... Someting with the POS is Bugged, and the light drones take an unfair advantage of that bug, therefore causing an exploit, and since their statement only mentions light drones, taken literaly would mean med/heavies are not an exploit, nor do they take advantage of the Bug in the POS ----------------------------------------------- In the End , there can be only 1
Today we celebrate, for tomorrow we die
learn from yesterday, that u may be stronger tomorrow
May the force be with us all |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vishnej Edited by: Vishnej on 09/08/2005 13:30:02
Originally by: FireFoxx80 I think the point is that POS turrets cycle targets. This is fine for gate/station sentries where CONCORD can get involved, but on a POS - fooling a turret to track something that it has no hope if hitting is considered an expoit.
A possible solution is to only allow turrets to lock targets that it has a hope of hitting. But include some degree of intelligence if there is no other means of defending a POS.
Just like fooling a rat battleship with a nasty high-velocity inty/assault frig?
If they want to implement firing rules, well, IMPLEMENT THEM ALREADY WHEN YOU GET BACK FROM VACATION. IMO, each gun should be A) linkable into AI groups, and B) have individual firing rules set up. So I should be able to set my four small pulse lasers to fire on Drones only, and my large artillery arrays to fire on Dreadnaughts first, battleships second.
Just an order of precedence, and the ability to link, say, two turrets a web and a warp disruptor together to fire on a random intys first, then when all the intys are dead assault frigs, then cruisers.
I gotta ask...
"What kind of business allows 90% of its staff to take a holiday at the same time?"
Seriously - that was a idiot thing to do.. Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Jernau Gurgeh
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
I gotta ask...
"What kind of business allows 90% of its staff to take a holiday at the same time?"
Schools, farms and parliaments to name but three.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
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Kar Brogan
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
I gotta ask...
"What kind of business allows 90% of its staff to take a holiday at the same time?"
Schools, farms and parliaments to name but three.
Gotta love it
/me runs around doing the i work at a school and get 6 weeks off just like the kids dance
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Embattle
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY POS owners are under the impression that since they put so much money and time into getting one, it should have a bright and shiny win button anchored next to the control tower. This way they don't have to risk their fleet when under attack.
Some do, most don't. ----------- I would have a sig but it might break a arm, leg or even worse a rule. |
aggro
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Posted - 2005.08.09 20:56:00 -
[23]
i was at the pos in question with this socalled exploit. i lost 8 small drones , so something hit them. So why is that an exploit, they did not just disappear they were hit by the pos. I also took a few hits of over 5000, so the guns were working also as they should. Again how is this an exploit. if the pos is set up right you have small,med and large guns to deal with all size of ships. what would happen if i put out mining drones, is that an exploit.
Alot of people put out drones incase covert ops or a fleet warp in. would this also be an exploit.
I believe ccp have caused more problems than they have solved with this action.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 21:02:00 -
[24]
the point is its broken CCP said it will be fixed now we should expect results within a short period of time - there are numerous fixes ie light anti drone guns - aspects that make drone uselessa round POS within 100km. POS smartbombs - POS drones that are launched automatically.
So lets see a fix soon.
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Ohmite
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Posted - 2005.08.09 21:21:00 -
[25]
My BS Large guns cant hit frigs, I waste all my ammo firing at them and cannot hit them, it must be an exploit
Suggestion fit guns designed to do the role of shooting smaller ships.
So in a POS fit Large guns for the BS's and if you want to take out frigs or drones then fit some smalls
As my corp member said, people seem to think the POS was defenceless but it was far from it, drones got killed and it dished out alot of damage, there was hits of over 10,000 recorded so not defenceless at all.
The problem is a GM made a knee jerk reaction which has lots of ramification, he declared the POS was defenceless as the guns targetted the drones and not the ships which is slightly misleading, yes the large guns couldnt hit the drones but the medium I think did and the smalls certainly would, it all about your POS setup, just like a BS, fit guns of all sizes if you want to attack targets of all sizes.
If you only fit large then your POS has a weakness to drones, fit only small then it wont damage BS's much but will kill drones and frigs with ease.
The answer is to fit a balanced set-up on your POS, blaming drones as an exploit is silly as the station was taken quicker without drones so it cant really be an exploit if using them serves no purpose and does not help the person who is allegedly using the exploit
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Abdalion
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Posted - 2005.08.09 21:27:00 -
[26]
Please don't start more threads on this issue.
It is suggested that you use the "Ask a question" button to the left.
Click. --
I ♥ You.... ® Shepherd of the [23] |
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.09 21:28:00 -
[27]
anyway u look at it, using light drones is an exploit now, large guns can`t hit light drones so the one using light drones is an exploiter like the pos with it`s large guns
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