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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
188
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Posted - 2013.03.02 14:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
So what do you propose for a "solution" Tom?
Corp officers having the ability to see into private hangers and to see ship fits without a scanner would help, so they could look for Cyno's at any time.
but what other ways can an Awoxer be caught before its too late?
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
322
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 15:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The amount of damage a spy can inflict is disproportional to the amount of defense offered. No alliance in EVE is immune to this threat, as a matter of fact the poster child for spying "Awox" is a verb to even the newest players of EVE learn.
Awoxing is basically the act of placing a member within a hostile alliance and betraying that alliance to tackle and cyno hell down upon your unsuspecting alliance mates. This term originates from an actual player named "Awox"
So what the hell do we do about it?
In EVE our toolbox is empty, so our real power comes from "outside" and this right here folks is where the line is crossed.
+ Making friends via 3rd party activities (Guilds, clans, etc) + Using facebook information to present yourself as a former classmate. (Dale from the Latin Club) + Selling yourself as a potential business partner who could land you a big sale! (Toyota Dealership in Detroit Michican) + Setting up a meet IRL (2012 EVE Vegas)
All of these out-of-game tools can be used and have been used to find out who doesn't belong. Most of them are borderline or cross the line to "Creepy".
So CCP please grant us the tools required to stop spies.
"Golly Mr. Gerard, you sure have given us a lot to think about."
But wait there's more!
I have been given the dubious honor of revealing a awoxer! =) This bit of information may not be relevant to most of you but should be a *popcorn* event for those who are.
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
Its not CCPs job to do background checks on potential employees. Thats up to your corps leadership. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1996
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 16:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Moving this from General Discussion to Crime and Punishment. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Cyprus Black
The Learning Curve.
679
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 18:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Wow, a counter has already been provided for awoxers and still this thread persists? Trolling is like art. Anyone can finger paint, but it takes true talent to create a masterpiece. |
Jess Tanner
Hard Knocks Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 23:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The amount of damage a spy can inflict is disproportional to the amount of defense offered. No alliance in EVE is immune to this threat, as a matter of fact the poster child for spying "Awox" is a verb to even the newest players of EVE learn.
Awoxing is basically the act of placing a member within a hostile alliance and betraying that alliance to tackle and cyno hell down upon your unsuspecting alliance mates. This term originates from an actual player named "Awox"
So what the hell do we do about it?
In EVE our toolbox is empty, so our real power comes from "outside" and this right here folks is where the line is crossed.
+ Making friends via 3rd party activities (Guilds, clans, etc) + Using facebook information to present yourself as a former classmate. (Dale from the Latin Club) + Selling yourself as a potential business partner who could land you a big sale! (Toyota Dealership in Detroit Michican) + Setting up a meet IRL (2012 EVE Vegas)
All of these out-of-game tools can be used and have been used to find out who doesn't belong. Most of them are borderline or cross the line to "Creepy".
So CCP please grant us the tools required to stop spies.
"Golly Mr. Gerard, you sure have given us a lot to think about."
But wait there's more!
I have been given the dubious honor of revealing a awoxer! =) This bit of information may not be relevant to most of you but should be a *popcorn* event for those who are.
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
Link provided to me by the most annoying person I've met, this week... |
Jess Tanner
Hard Knocks Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 23:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The amount of damage a spy can inflict is disproportional to the amount of defense offered. No alliance in EVE is immune to this threat, as a matter of fact the poster child for spying "Awox" is a verb to even the newest players of EVE learn.
Awoxing is basically the act of placing a member within a hostile alliance and betraying that alliance to tackle and cyno hell down upon your unsuspecting alliance mates. This term originates from an actual player named "Awox"
So what the hell do we do about it?
In EVE our toolbox is empty, so our real power comes from "outside" and this right here folks is where the line is crossed.
+ Making friends via 3rd party activities (Guilds, clans, etc) + Using facebook information to present yourself as a former classmate. (Dale from the Latin Club) + Selling yourself as a potential business partner who could land you a big sale! (Toyota Dealership in Detroit Michican) + Setting up a meet IRL (2012 EVE Vegas)
All of these out-of-game tools can be used and have been used to find out who doesn't belong. Most of them are borderline or cross the line to "Creepy".
So CCP please grant us the tools required to stop spies.
"Golly Mr. Gerard, you sure have given us a lot to think about."
But wait there's more!
I have been given the dubious honor of revealing a awoxer! =) This bit of information may not be relevant to most of you but should be a *popcorn* event for those who are.
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
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BadAssMcKill
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 23:39:00 -
[37] - Quote
So you want to Chris Hansen anyone who joins your corp?
I'm down with that Starships were meant to fly~ |
Agent Trask
New Order Logistics CODE.
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 00:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Bit overkill, isn't it? You play EVE and you're worried about overkill?
There is no such thing as overkill. There is only under-targeting.
to the OP:
Demand an API. Study it. Have newbs join a newb corp, and recruit the competent out of that. Only recruit out of an IRL organization, so there are actual consequences for screwing you over.
Ultimately, the problem here will always be trust, and people who don't make others earn it.
Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.
www.minerbumping.com |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1030
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 11:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Spies are part of EVE. If you can't accept that then there are other games you could try.
I mean god damn, CCP actively promoted infiltrating an enemy and ruining their corp in one of the promotional videos |
Professional Forum Alt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
There is a thread on the "Features & Ideas Discussion" about this subject too. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=210905
Simple idea - Remove legal killing of corp mates. Why is actually allowed ?
Any typos, spelling errors and bad grammer found, are free and yours to keep |
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Kristopher Rocancourt
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
71
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The amount of damage a spy can inflict is disproportional to the amount of defense offered. No alliance in EVE is immune to this threat, as a matter of fact the poster child for spying "Awox" is a verb to even the newest players of EVE learn.
Awoxing is basically the act of placing a member within a hostile alliance and betraying that alliance to tackle and cyno hell down upon your unsuspecting alliance mates. This term originates from an actual player named "Awox"
So what the hell do we do about it?
In EVE our toolbox is empty, so our real power comes from "outside" and this right here folks is where the line is crossed.
+ Making friends via 3rd party activities (Guilds, clans, etc) + Using facebook information to present yourself as a former classmate. (Dale from the Latin Club) + Selling yourself as a potential business partner who could land you a big sale! (Toyota Dealership in Detroit Michican) + Setting up a meet IRL (2012 EVE Vegas)
All of these out-of-game tools can be used and have been used to find out who doesn't belong. Most of them are borderline or cross the line to "Creepy".
So CCP please grant us the tools required to stop spies.
"Golly Mr. Gerard, you sure have given us a lot to think about."
But wait there's more!
I have been given the dubious honor of revealing a awoxer! =) This bit of information may not be relevant to most of you but should be a *popcorn* event for those who are.
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
Snitches get stitches.
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Kodama Ikari
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 20:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:API is hopeful thinking. Purchase a new character, play the game for a few months with it, insert into unsuspecting corp. API defeated.
If you're accepting new members with clean histories then this is a risk you must take.
If you can't tell its an alt account by talking to the person and examining the API, if the person 100% acting the part and taking hours and weeks to convince you, if this person earns the trust you place in them, then they've indeed earned it. There is nothing inadequate about the game mechanics when they fail to allow you to stop them.
If being a successful spy takes no effort or skill, then it just means that those who were fooled had less skill and put forth less effort. |
Porucznik Borewicz
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 23:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gotta Catch 'Em All! |
dark heartt
I Own Four Sheep Silent Requiem
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 02:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Professional Forum Alt wrote:
So that you can practice PVP with them perhaps? |
Iminent Penance
Interstellar Military Assistance Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Guys I thought of an easy solution, demand remote access to their pc at all times, and boot them the moment it drops!
Also keyloggers, MULTIPLE KEYLOGGERS.
Thank me for solving this problem logically and easily |
AzzA Amilupar
Imperial Guardians Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
YOU SIR ARE A D.I.C.K |
Melissa Juarez
Imperial Guardians Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.
Stupid people like this make my head hurt |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
959
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 04:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
Quality posting from the two of you, I am glad to see there is solidarity within your alliance on this issue. I posted the discussion I had with your diplomat, and he told me has already taken steps to ensure the safety of his operations.
You two however, seem to be in disagreement, which clearly demonstrates your alliance is far from a union of harmony and togetherness... but instead suffers from excommunication issues as well as a general lack of preparedness. I can certainly understand why one would believe your alliance is immune to spies with such a coordinated internal effort.
I commend both AzzA Amilupar, and Melissa Juarez from demonstrating the best your community has to offer. One of the oldest mission players in EVE designed a chart that explains stat priority in regards to mission running, compared Alpha, DPS, Ship Speed and Sig Radius and scores them. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24dbrfuWn1r86ax8o1_1280.jpg |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight
70
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
Some key recruiting principles...
Use the API's properly: First, confirm an applicant has applied with his 'main' toon and request the names of his alts. Once he has 'disclosed' THEN ask for a full API and check for any ISK transfers in/out of his main to other toons. Any undisclosed alts and no go.
Also, request full API's for alts he DID disclose, and then do the same xref check to follow the money. Again, if he lied and there are transfers in/out of other 'mains' or sketchy alt toons, do not accept.
Once you have a good sense of all his toons, then send a quick email to his past CEO's where his stay's were short, asking about him.
Don't openly recruit if possible. That is, focus on finding people to invite into corp rather than accepting 'walk ins'. Surf system local looking for people with short employment histories and send them recruitment invites.
If you take the time to do this, you can filter out a LOT of shite lords. http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca |
Sh0plifter
Black Market Operations
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Super spikinator wrote:Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.
You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid I bet someone read this and went "challenge accepted". Challenege accepted.
@Super splinaudisahdaiudqw: Haha, If you are going to SRP M1 ****, you may s well shoot youself in the ******* foot. That would only promote a spy who wants to get the best benefit possible to fly **** in your fleets. |
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Quit Whining
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
I made the mistake of starting to read the opening post without first checking the poster...if only I'd realised it was a Tom Gerard thread I could have prevented myself from wasting those minutes and just opted to assume it was inconsequential, unsubstantial and baseless drivel. |
Marlon Darmazaf
e-L00T Ltd.
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
The Line Must be Drawn Here So... um... yeah! |
Joceline
Brave Newbies Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 04:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:bufnitza calatoare wrote:Iminent Penance wrote:Demand their physical address and have them meet you in person before joining.
What could possibly go wrong, and itl fix this! You see exactly who they are.
OOOOh or demand a keylogger. Another brilliant, easy solution to solve everything allowed in eve with NO consequence would never work with me. if they wanna travel to nz then bully for them. if they do live in nz and with the travel about 700-900km even more bully for them. I would travel to half moon bay if it meant sweet sweet tears. That means both the cook and the foveaux straits. Onto the topic at hand Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox. You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid
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Joceline
Brave Newbies Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 04:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:bufnitza calatoare wrote:Iminent Penance wrote:Demand their physical address and have them meet you in person before joining.
What could possibly go wrong, and itl fix this! You see exactly who they are.
OOOOh or demand a keylogger. Another brilliant, easy solution to solve everything allowed in eve with NO consequence would never work with me. if they wanna travel to nz then bully for them. if they do live in nz and with the travel about 700-900km even more bully for them. I would travel to half moon bay if it meant sweet sweet tears. That means both the cook and the foveaux straits. Onto the topic at hand Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox. You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid
My problem with all this is that it causes an unnecessary amount of hassle for all of us that are not spies.
The core problem is that the risk/reward ratio for doing bad things to other people is out of whack. I have no problem with scamming, spying, whatever evil thing you can think of doing. But if I catch you in the act, or even after the fact, I should be able to extract some justice. Simply acting in a reciprocal fashion isn't really the same thing. That makes me just as bad as you. I should be able to get justice without being evil. And by bad/evil I mean in game, I'm not connecting those terms to the RL person.
In some cases this would be very easy to fix, such as stealing isk from a corporation. Just add controls on spending and withdrawals that can only be lifted by a majority vote.
Or maybe a bond/surety system of some type. You put up a bond to join a corp, and if the majority of corp members vote that you did something bad to them, you have to pay up. CCP could provide some canned corp bylaws for stuff like this that they approve of.
Of course this could be used to scam a corp member, but it would require the cooperation of a lot of people of you had requirements such as bonds could only be used by corps with at least 100 active members, etc..
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StoneCold
House of Sparrows
84
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 07:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Professional Forum Alt wrote:
Simple idea - Remove legal killing of corp mates. Why is actually allowed ?
Because EvE is run by corporations. They have to care about their own security.
The bigger corps i was in didn-Št get awoxed (afaik). Why? Maybe because of their recruitment process and the following requirements (activity and such) which an "alt" probably couldnt hold (high standards).
If i hear that some people send in cold apps to 25 corps and are accepted to 10-15 without a single word with the recruiter -> don-Št blame ccp for that. Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. I support Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Jensaro Koraka
Serenity Prime Kraken.
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 12:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:API is hopeful thinking. Purchase a new character, play the game for a few months with it, insert into unsuspecting corp. API defeated. That takes a lot of money and effort for something that only works once. Anyone willing to go to such obsessive lengths is uncounterable anyway, regardless of how they go about the attack. "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
455
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
There are many many creative ways of catching Spy's and Awox'ers, Just get really creative without getting to creepy.
-Yes, the API is very handy, if it looks to clean or to dirty and doesnt act like it, prepare to AWOX the spy and dont forget to pod just before kicking. Also, use your head and never miss a single word that crosses you in corp/alliance chat, EVERY spy makes some kind of mistake, its up to you and your officers to PAY ATTENTION, even if that some one never says more then hi, by.
Trick is to know more then the spy and to keep this information from them, I.E. avoid talking about the details in public. |
Mike Adoulin
Trans-Aerospace Industries
196
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 10:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
You guys are aware that CCP stealth patched Crimewatch so that a corpie that shoots another corpie now goes Suspect (flashy yellow)?
The corpie that got shot is then in a Limited Engagement with his now-Suspect corpie......
And now, of course, anybody can pop the Suspect corpie. Anybody at all.
CCP is getting tricksy, they is.
As for having CCP finding a game mechanic to stop spies.....
*ROFLMAO*
Sorry, you are going to have to figure that one out for yourself folks, I hear IRL intelligence agencies have been pondering this same question as well.....
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2709
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 14:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Super spikinator wrote:Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.
You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid I bet someone read this and went "challenge accepted".
Myself & La Nariz awox a lot & are happy to provide API's, we just don't give the person access to anything incriminating. Most of the time they don't bother checking it anyway (even when they say that they are) & the rest of the time we blame CCP for messing up the API key & they let us in anyway.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
268
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
There's far too much deep-seated deception in this game. I don't like it at all.
I do not envy the people who are tasked with unravelling it. We miss you Saede. |
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