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Denuo Secus
147
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Posted - 2013.03.03 04:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.
A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.
I see some issues when using them in combat:
- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability - bad lock time without triage - moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^
But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?
Thanks for any hint. |
yer mammy
Derp Inc
64
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Posted - 2013.03.03 05:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
no. |
Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
32
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Posted - 2013.03.03 06:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:Hi,
I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.
A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.
I see some issues when using them in combat:
- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability - bad lock time without triage - moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^
But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?
Thanks for any hint.
You seem to be trying to figure out how to use a triage/rep-based ship (a ship basically designed for repping other ships (utilities, as you say) as something that doesn't do any of this...
Carriers are generally used for remote repping small gangs (I'm sure others can provide more detail than this, lol) so it's not really a ship that you can apply a DPS and EHP number to in your calculations of small gang warfare (let alone GTFO ability.) |
terzho
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
165
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Posted - 2013.03.03 07:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let's just say that if you bring a carrier, it won't be small gang for very long. |
BadAssMcKill
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
149
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Posted - 2013.03.03 08:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Enjoy being hotdropped on by everyone and their mother Starships were meant to fly~ |
Nalha Saldana
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
690
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Posted - 2013.03.03 13:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sounds like fun, just don't expect to get out alive |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
45
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Posted - 2013.03.03 14:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Never has so many cut-throats, backstabbing thieves and mistrusting pirates joined forces as when a lone capital is called out. They will put aside all their differences and sing songs of peace and love just for the pleasure of getting a share of that killmail. Captain of the ESS Mivtach... or not? Don't make me use battleclinic.... |
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
147
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Posted - 2013.03.03 17:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
You are forgetting something important. Carriers in triage can not deploy drones. Any drones that are deployed when you enter triage get disconnected until you exit triage and recall them.
A lone carrier without triage can easily be killed by a small gang due to how slowly your reps cycle. If you are going to use a carrier for something pvp oriented it needs to be a proper repping triage carrier. And should be deployed when you have a reasonable chance of killing off the other gang, or holding the field long enough for you to exit triage and get to a tower or station.
Failure to do this will result in you loosing your carrier.
If you want lots of ehp and damage get a t3 or faction battleship and be happy. |
Cage Man
173
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Posted - 2013.03.03 19:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support. Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
49
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Posted - 2013.03.03 19:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's because carriers attract blobs a lot more than a t3 regardless of the fit, and it's much easier to remove a carrier's dps than a t3s so at a point they could afk shoot you down. |
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chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
147
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Posted - 2013.03.03 21:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.
You forget that the moon aligns faster than carriers do.
Also, rep range on an archon is about 45 km, with about a 30 sec lock time on things that are not battleships. A single proteus will point you easily at that range and lol at your pitiful sentry damage. Shy of that most ships only need to get within 28 of you to point you with an OH point. Battleships are the only things that come to mind that are a bit slow to do this in under a few seconds.
What you are thinking of is sometimes called slowcats. This works when there are lots and lots of them. But not when you are trying to support a gang. |
Praxis Ginimic
256
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Posted - 2013.03.03 21:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is proly a dumb question but I've never been in a gang with a carrier. Can they assign their drones to another member then go triage? |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
422
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Posted - 2013.03.03 21:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Praxis Ginimic wrote:This is proly a dumb question but I've never been in a gang with a carrier. Can they assign their drones to another member then go triage? I'm pretty sure they will deactivate still. Otherwise noone would ever say that triage removed DPS and rage threads would've been popping up from time to time
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. |
Denuo Secus
147
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Posted - 2013.03.03 22:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thx for your replies. But most of them only commented the "you'll get ganked" issue. Yes we will get blobbed. But tbh..when flying BCs or ordinary t1 cruisers we get blobbed very often as well, I see no difference here.
The plan to use a carrier as flexible damage platform arose from the idea to actually be able to fight bigger blobs than usual (when flying sub capitals) in a small gang. So my question was more about practical issues - such as lock times or anything I'm not aware of.
Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.
Exactly this was my thought as well. I considered them as big fat (expensive) BSs with tons of drones and fighters + additional utility for the gang. No triage, only 1 or 2 XL remote reps. Ship maintenance bay is the biggest advantage.
@Drake Doe: I don't see how it should be possible to remove a carriers DPS from the field. Please explain. A carrier can hold tons of ordinary drones as replacement. And if drones get shoot, no one shoots the carrier. Some kind of tank extension if you want. In case of ECM a carrier pilot can assign drone control to a gang member. Sub capital drone ships are considered as very flexible damage platform. Why not carriers?
Regarding pitiful sentry damage: how is 1000 DPS pitiful? Especially with the ability to switch to an endless stream of smaller drones against smaller or up-close targets. Again: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why? |
yer mammy
Derp Inc
64
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Posted - 2013.03.03 23:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.
you are clueless. |
Cage Man
174
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Posted - 2013.03.03 23:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
yer mammy wrote:Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support. you are clueless.
errr explain how???
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2013.03.03 23:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Don't confuse paper dps with actual damage.
Carrier as mobile dps support platform......well it's only mobile if you consider that it can jump pretty far. Once you jump into a system all that "mobile" in "mobile damage" platform goes away. If people don't like your dps, they just fly away. And you're sitting there.
One other thing, if you're not in a wormhole, you are and will be always in range of a titan..........and if you trow your carrier around, one of those titans might just do a drive by just for lols. (guys who do that regularly have their own fanclub dedicated to catching them.)
So, unless you fly/sit with at least like 15 other carriers, slowcats. And are part of one of the major coaltions then forget it.
As a triage however, you can easily tip the scales of a battle and it can be very worthwhile to deploy and make your gang save the day. Eventually, just like every other ship you will lose it, but in the mean time you can have saved multitudes the cost of ships of buddies you saved. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
51
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Posted - 2013.03.04 01:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes it can carry tons of drones but if just a few people web and paint them they're dead in seconds |
Dengen Krastinov
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
3
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Posted - 2013.03.04 02:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
I endorse this idea. |
Denuo Secus
147
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Posted - 2013.03.04 04:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Yes it can carry tons of drones but if just a few people web and paint them they're dead in seconds
Good point. Especially since carriers don't have drone HP bonus. |
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Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy Samurai Pizza Cats
121
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Posted - 2013.03.04 05:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
You mentioned being blobbed when flying around in bc gangs, I don't think you understand what that refers to when we're talking about there being a cap on field. If you want something to let you hit above your weight class bring your bc gangs with guard/ aug support, or refit the lone carrier for triage. Someone brought this up about a week ago and everyone who explained this to him was told to shut up because they didn't understand he was thinking outside the box. We get it, it's how we get free cap kills.
That said, feel free to try it. SLAPD - Star Scientist, I science stars SLAPD is recruiting -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2360715&#post2360715 |
Batelle
Concordiat
141
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Posted - 2013.03.04 16:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:yer mammy wrote:Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support. you are clueless. errr explain how???
you're a complete sitting duck. Your tank and reps will be weak because you decided to fit drone mods. Warping in at range will do absolutely nothing to prevent you from being tackled, as an interceptor can burn the distance and point you from outside neut range before you can target him. A single griffin or maulus is sufficient to jam you out or prevent you from locking things. You have to be able to lock things to direct your drones, and things can warp away with impunity if you ever get a lock on them, and they won't need to do that at all if they have any logi. Against multiple ships (it doesn't take many) a carrier has a lot of easily exploitable vulnerabilities, and cannot defend itself well. If your gang dies, you die, and you are not helping your gang very much. You become more of a tactical liability than an asset. Fighting is Magic |
Cambarus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
280
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:yer mammy wrote:Cage Man wrote:I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.
If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try. Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support. you are clueless. errr explain how??? Most people get a big fat stiffy from the thought of killing a carrier. Most won't go 10+ jumps to try and kill a t3, especially since once they're there, it's probably long gone. Someone shouts that they have a carrier tackled in system X, then every pilot within 15 jumps of X will start heading that way. T3s are good because they offer decent performance along with the ability to GTFO. You will lose your carrier a dozen times before a well flown T3 gets blapped.
It's also about KBs. The same reason that people love getting their name on a cap kill is one of the big reasons it's a bad idea to fly one. Your KD ratio on any killboard is going to be ****, and you're going to lose more isk than you kill.
And while we're here, lets look at the actual viability of a carrier, once you take out the triage: 1250 DPS on a thanny with perfect skills, golly gee that sure is swell, pity a blaster domi outDPSs it by a fairly wide margin, as do pretty much every gank fit BS in the game, while being more mobile, less expensive, and less of a blob magnet. Sure you get some range, but you're so slow, as are your fighters, that the actual applied DPS is going to be about the same anyway. The ability to tank more incoming DPS is LESS valuable than the ability to mitigate it and/or GTFO when it gets to be too much, because eve is very much a numbers game, and as soon as someone realizes that they can't break your tank, they'll leave, and wont be back until they have enough people to do it (not that it takes much, I'd wager a single well flown neut domi could drop a carrier, albeit slowly)
This is, of course, not even counting dreads. If you or one of your friends has a decent dread skillset, hop on sisi and try your hand at brawling a carrier or 2. This was actually what got me to permanently shelve my thanny (which I once flew with perfect skills, though mainly for rep support), as I became very aware of the fact that the only thing that had been keeping me alive was the fact that I rarely agressed/didn't fight competent dread pilots. 2 well skilled dreads will drop you before you can de-agress and dock, maybe even 1 if you're in a non-triaged thanny. |
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy Samurai Pizza Cats
121
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why? The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.
-edit- Cambarus beat me to it, but yes, even with grid load and lock time, a well skilled lone moros can handily kill an agressed Thanny before it has time to deagress and dock. SLAPD - Star Scientist, I science stars SLAPD is recruiting -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2360715&#post2360715 |
Cambarus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
280
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cat Casidy wrote:Cage Man wrote:IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why? The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time. I was on sisi a few months back, refit my moros from the tracking fit it had been using to just a straight lets-see-how-much-dps-I-can-churn-out fit.
This was the fit.
While not at all practical, it goes to show just how much DPS a dread can field( and holy **** was it fun to fly), and how easily dreads can (and will, because cap ships are a beacon for pirates) absolutely wreck your carrier time and time again. The tracking dread (which was armor tanked) version killed carriers quite well also, and could take on a carrier or 2 without actually hitting armor before they died (and this was a fit designed to blap smaller ships) so yeah, a combat carrier is going to get wrecked very, very quickly. |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:Thx for your replies. But most of them only commented the "you'll get ganked" issue.
I'm sorry but that point really must be hammered home. We're not mean we are just gravely serious.
Ship size does not equal character level.
It's not like a frigate is level 5 while a Battleship is level 50 and a Carrier level 100. All ships are specialized and niched. There's no magic bullet ship in Eve. It's rock paper scissors and everything has a weakness.
A Carrier is formidable yes but it's a healer. In a gang it will drastically amplify that gangs capabilities through its massive RR support but alone the Carrier is vulnerable.
Even if you have a Triage module it's not like the attackers are in a hurry. Every second you're there just means more hostiles will arrive and once the neuts are there. Not even the Triage will hold. Time is on the attackers side.
Does anyone know a good website to upload loudouts too that doesn't try to sell me plexes in between every line? |
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy Samurai Pizza Cats
121
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Cat Casidy wrote:Cage Man wrote:IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why? The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time. I was on sisi a few months back, refit my moros from the tracking fit it had been using to just a straight lets-see-how-much-dps-I-can-churn-out fit. This was the fit.While not at all practical, it goes to show just how much DPS a dread can field( and holy **** was it fun to fly), and how easily dreads can (and will, because cap ships are a beacon for pirates) absolutely wreck your carrier time and time again. The tracking dread (which was armor tanked) version killed carriers quite well also, and could take on a carrier or 2 without actually hitting armor before they died (and this was a fit designed to blap smaller ships) so yeah, a combat carrier is going to get wrecked very, very quickly.
While that's a little (lot) goofy the dps numbers aren't really that far off for a well setup moros, probly closer to 16 -17k for most. So OP, can you tank that? Or warp off before it rips you to ribbons?
SLAPD - Star Scientist, I science stars SLAPD is recruiting -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2360715&#post2360715 |
Tore Vest
313
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 18:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
I like the idea No troll. |
Prekaz
the gentlemen's corporation
35
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Posted - 2013.03.04 18:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Don't listen to these naysayers, OP. Most of these clowns are mindless adherents to whatever fleet doctrines their alliance overlords have hammered into their heads - corporate drones with no respect for the efficacy of outside-the-box thinking, which is exactly why a cunning strategy like this will catch them completely unaware.
Why stop at a carrier, though? Have you considered a supercarrier? |
Cage Man
177
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Posted - 2013.03.04 18:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cat Casidy wrote:Cage Man wrote:IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why? The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time. -edit- Cambarus beat me to it, but yes, even with grid load and lock time, a well skilled lone moros can handily kill an agressed Thanny before it has time to deagress and dock.
You seem to have messed up your quote editing I didn't state the above. I realize all the pitfalls of a carrier.. and if you had seen what I said.. if I had enough isk to waste it would be fun to try.. would I loose it... hell yea.. but EVE is not about keeping your pixels as long as you possibly can, its about having fun.. I can bet PL and goons who drop cap's any chance they have don't care about loosing them as they can easily replace them... also dropping a lone capital on the field is not what I said.. so live a little.. Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
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