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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country
5505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:48:00 -
[271] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Who says they aren't?
The game mechanics? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:50:00 -
[272] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions.
The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:56:00 -
[273] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions. The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is.
What if they removed the free station slots and you had to use high-sec pos slots? Would that change your opinion? I know a lot of people that do most of their manufacturing in PoSes for a number of reasons (proximity to trade hubs, etc). Again this would create an issue for new players looking to learn manufacturing. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:57:00 -
[274] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. Who says they aren't? Oh, highsec players actually have to maintain those free NPC stations now do they?
The players aren't the ones who control empire sov. But your taxes while in highsec are going somewhere I'm sure. Think of all those npc corps and agents and empire space and all that money NOT going into your wallet as you perform functions while you are there.
From a lore standpoint, that's highsec... not player but npc. Which is what highsec is. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:58:00 -
[275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Who says they aren't?
The game mechanics?
Which game mechanic? The tax? or the seed costs? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:58:00 -
[276] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions. The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is. It wasn't my intent to attack you personally, I'm sorry that you see it as such.
I know why there isn't an industrial POS on every moon though, and it has nothing to do with the state of highsec industry and everything to do with the failings of the POS system.
But I understand your disappointment in discovering that the brass ring is actually plated plastic, and hollow at that. It does make a person feel like lashing out at everyone they see as having things better. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Nordanvind
Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:59:00 -
[277] - Quote
A higher risk should always give a higher reward. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:03:00 -
[278] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation.
From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread.
Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed.
Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec.
Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay.
Highsec was still buffed repeatedly.
I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix."
I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is.
Highsec is always in the calculation. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:10:00 -
[279] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation. From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread. Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed. Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec. Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay. Highsec was still buffed repeatedly. I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix." I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is. Highsec is always in the calculation.
So you're saying that highsec is the pillow you bit all night in your frustration? I don't understand what you're trying to mock. You clearly made decisions knowing the cost and the risks and I'm only seeing poeple cry about them and look to blame others for it.
Sounds like you and yours have some serious issues with frustration. I mean, we can only read what YOU post right? Not MY fault if your information giving skills suck ass.
And I do live in nullsec. We in fact recently moved systems in the same region. Perhaps you should do some research as well. You know, to stay informed. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:14:00 -
[280] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation. From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread. Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed. Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec. Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay. Highsec was still buffed repeatedly. I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix." I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is. Highsec is always in the calculation. So you're saying that highsec is the pillow you bit all night in your frustration? I don't understand what you're trying to mock. You clearly made decisions knowing the cost and the risks and I'm only seeing poeple cry about them and look to blame others for it. Sounds like you and yours have some serious issues with frustration. I mean, we can only read what YOU post right? Not MY fault if your information giving skills suck ass. And I do live in nullsec. We in fact recently moved systems in the same region. Perhaps you should do some research as well. You know, to stay informed.
Your assuming there was a point to his post aside from angering you, that was your first mistake. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:17:00 -
[281] - Quote
True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:19:00 -
[282] - Quote
If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
103
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:21:00 -
[283] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
I dont see why a sov POS couldnt be grown to a large size surpassing the benefits of a highsec POS, maybe if your corp/alliance controls the system you are able to double or perhaps triple its capability, faster production, more runs and better research, of course it woudld require investment as well. Something more than just buying extra POS hardware. Though i Also dont know if such a thing as sov exists in lowsec however as the topic only stated null v high where i know sov does happen, why not make upgraded POS's a benefit. Givesome reason to actually fight for space other than obligatory explosions |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:27:00 -
[284] - Quote
Manufacturing out of POS adds a risk, as your POS might be reinforced then, later, blapped. Which loses you stuff stored in it. like BPOs. which can be pricy.
The normal route to avoid that is to store them in corp hangers in stations/outposts.
In systems without such, you have a significantly higher risk on that investment, to no benefit.
How about, in null, the ability to rent hangers on planets. Which you can then access via something like a POCO.
Blap the structure, and anything in it is nuked. But nothing is kept in that structure, unless you're crazy.
Sure, it's storage that is pretty much invulnerable. But so is anything in a station or outpost. Reduces a risk to the same as elsewhere. (Bar the structure being Blapped and needing replaced.)
Monthly fee, split between the sov holder and CCP (representing people needing paid)? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:29:00 -
[285] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation
The potential is there, but at the cost of many man-hours of refuelling, moving parts from POS to POS, setting the things up which is an awful way to spend a day, the setup costs, the maintenace costs... I could go on. Meanwhile in highsec, you go to your free NPC station & pay a miniscule amount of isk & start generating immediate profit. For us to reproduce the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station, you're looking at around 20 POS towers, which is a logistical nightmare to setup & maintain, plus the profit potential is very low. It's no wonder the only things that get produced out in nullsec are supercaps.
We do haul out pretty much everything with JF's but it shouldn't be that way. A POS revamp such as the one Malcanis & Mynna have been flirting with would give us the option of having decent industry (or other) capabilities if we chose to dump trillions of isk in to them. These would be destructable & bring more people back to nullsec.
CCP has a habit of looking at the numbers & ignoring what people say. People don't use POS's right now in big numbers because they are absolutely awful to setup & maintain, anyone who has tried it knows this. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:34:00 -
[286] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Manufacturing out of POS adds a risk, as your POS might be reinforced then, later, blapped. Which loses you stuff stored in it. like BPOs. which can be pricy.
The normal route to avoid that is to store them in corp hangers in stations/outposts.
In systems without such, you have a significantly higher risk on that investment, to no benefit.
How about, in null, the ability to rent hangers on planets. Which you can then access via something like a POCO.
Blap the structure, and anything in it is nuked. But nothing is kept in that structure, unless you're crazy.
Sure, it's storage that is pretty much invulnerable. But so is anything in a station or outpost. Reduces a risk to the same as elsewhere. (Bar the structure being Blapped and needing replaced.)
Monthly fee, split between the sov holder and CCP (representing people needing paid)?
I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation?
I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! ) |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:35:00 -
[287] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. Who says they aren't? Oh, highsec players actually have to maintain those free NPC stations now do they? The players aren't the ones who control empire sov. But your taxes while in highsec are going somewhere I'm sure. Think of all those npc corps and agents and empire space and all that money NOT going into your wallet as you perform functions while you are there. From a lore standpoint, that's highsec... not player but npc. Which is what highsec is.
Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:38:00 -
[288] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. If you want to understand the situation more fully, consider the existence of other highsec trade hubs.
Why are there trade hubs at Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie when Jita is already a one-stop-shop?
Why do all these systems have ship kill rates to make many nullsec regions jealous? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Amarr http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Rens http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Dodixie
It's because these are systems where players gather and interact.
This is player generated content, emergent and beautiful.
All happening under and despite the oppressive eye of CONCORD.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:39:00 -
[289] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station.
True but they are the equivalent costs. I don't think anyone is arguing that the additional cost of having to conduct industry in null is worth it by comparison to high-sec once you account for everything or that it shouldnt be changed. Just that that change shouldn't be nerfing high-sec. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:39:00 -
[290] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:For us to reproduce the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station, you're looking at around 20 POS towers, which is a logistical nightmare to setup & maintain, plus the profit potential is very low. It's no wonder the only things that get produced out in nullsec are supercaps.
Depends on the station. And what you're wanting to make there. 1 Large POS can easily match some, when all you do is manufacture modules or components (some stations just have 50 factory slots). And while it is more expensive per hour than doing it in a station, you also get about 33% more goods in the same time. Doesn't take a huge output to make it cost effective in isk/hr. If it's battleships, then it's another matter entirely. And some stations just do everything, which is vary hard to beat. (50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots, 20 invention slots, 20 Material research, 20 time efficiency research)
Let alone the potential to get ripped off by a corp-mate (not even a director) due to the dodgy role system.
This is related to something I've suggested before. Instead of highsec stations having 'generic' manufacturing slots, break them up into various types. So some stations are only good for ammo (stick these near starter systems ) Some can make ships, but have more limited numbers of slots for it.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation? I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! )
I'd fix it with: SOV owner gets to set who gets to use the space elevator/launchpads to get stuff into orbit. So if you lose sov, you can lose access to the storage FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:45:00 -
[292] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. If you want to understand the situation more fully, consider the existence of other highsec trade hubs. Why are there trade hubs at Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie when Jita is already a one-stop-shop? Why do all these systems have ship kill rates to make many nullsec regions jealous? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Amarrhttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jitahttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Renshttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/DodixieIt's because these are systems where players gather and interact. This is player generated content, emergent and beautiful. All happening under and despite the oppressive eye of CONCORD.
Disagree, the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. There is a certain amount of PVP in high-sec that result from War Decs and that activity is more prevalent in systems with more players for simple statistical reasons. Its also a non-linear scale because the more people that are there the greater the possibility of combat which in turn brings more pvp pilots out of the woodwork.
The other trade hubs also aren't true trade hubs, they are distribution points. Its just players being willing to pay for someone to bring the stuff they want closer to them so they don't have to fly as far to shop. As proof; show me any product with a reasonable sales volume that trades at a price below Jita. If it were a trade hub, it would have its own demand based prices not simple markups on Jita prices. Jita likely won't ever change, its also not a bad thing. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation? I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! ) I'd fix it with: SOV owner gets to set who gets to use the space elevator/launchpads to get stuff into orbit. So if you lose sov, you can lose access to the storage
I suppose that works, I like your idea of breaking up station manufacturing slots by type. I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:55:00 -
[294] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. "Just player density"
Rather my point.
It isn't like CCP said "this system will be the main trade hub, and these other systems will be secondary or tertiary hubs from that".
People got together and bought or sold things all over, gradually converging on a few systems for the majority of trade.
Prices in these systems deviate both ways from Jita, inter-hub trade is a multi-directional thing.
This is something that nullsec lacks.
Simply put, unless there is enough player density to allow for the formation of trade hubs to match even a tertiary highsec trade hub there isn't going to be any incentive for pure-play traders and industrialists to set up shop out there, so the lack of resources is moot.
In fact, there is one change that would make this happen, and suggesting it before is one reason certain people want to downvote me to oblivion (or perhaps just back to Hek):
Mandatory open docking at outposts. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:06:00 -
[295] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Haradgrim wrote:the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. "Just player density" Rather my point. It isn't like CCP said "this system will be the main trade hub, and these other systems will be secondary or tertiary hubs from that". People got together and bought or sold things all over, gradually converging on a few systems for the majority of trade. Prices in these systems deviate both ways from Jita, inter-hub trade is a multi-directional thing. This is something that nullsec lacks. Simply put, unless there is enough player density to allow for the formation of trade hubs to match even a tertiary highsec trade hub there isn't going to be any incentive for pure-play traders and industrialists to set up shop out there, so the lack of resources is moot. In fact, there is one change that would make this happen, and suggesting it before is one reason certain people want to downvote me to oblivion (or perhaps just back to Hek): Mandatory open docking at outposts.
My point is that its just a function of geography. If those systems weren't located where they are they wouldn't be as populated. If you added another 500k players to the game, I bet there would be a bunch of additional distribution points. Right now the only reason there aren't more is because its not profitable enough, there aren't enough players willing to pay you a premium so they don't have to go as far as one of the existing hubs (since its impossible to be very far from any of them and still be in high sec) for it to be profitable enough to the playerbase to encurage them to open more. If it weren't just a function of geography then Yulai would never have died..... |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
576
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:08:00 -
[296] - Quote
Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
281
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:08:00 -
[297] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent).
"Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons.
YK
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:09:00 -
[298] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative.
We can't exactly take you seriously and have "informative" discussions when you don't learn from the previous one's. I'd be happy to explain everything to you if I hadn't already done it 5 or so times. One can only bang their head against a wall so many times. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:19:00 -
[299] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo.
Null's not meant to be harder, its meant to require you to be more self sufficient. You should start with less capability than high-sec but be able to build a greater capability. At least thats the intent (I believe). |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:24:00 -
[300] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). "Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons. YK
The logistical difficulty of using POSes in null has more to do with getting raw materials out there (its hard to get trit for instance since mining is dangerous, low income, and it takes up a lot of space) where as in high-sec you can just freighter whatever you need to a pos. Also, null players have to deal with the issue of not always having a station in the same system as their pos which means no safe place to store BPOs, etc.
What is it about POSes that would be an issue for you? Its the concept of having to make an investment and protect it that I'm seeking to encorperate into the high-sec manufacturing cycle. |
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