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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Primary Me
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2013.03.05 13:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
James 315 for CSM 8. A voice for hi-sec, a voice for reason. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
590
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1172
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Null industry should be at least comparable to High, if not marginally better. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1046
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Primary Me wrote: Is it simply risk v reward,
yes
Primary Me wrote: or more complex than that?
no "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2147
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Of course it should be better.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
468
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
lol nullbears there is no risk in null lmao Follow me on twitter |
Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
In terms of the risk vs reward, it should be better.
Null has its pro's and cons with risk, i.e. intel channels, the blue donut but pain in the ass AFK cloakies and BS rats do tip it slightly.
Also the lengths an alliance has to go to in order to manage that risk are huge. You need sov, which requires isk, grind and good diplomacy skills (or just a s***load of ISK).
Your average 30 man corp cant just say f*ck it lets go and mine in 0.0 today. If they did, the rewards would need to be significantly better. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1020
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Sentamon
725
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13074
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits. Excellent! That means null becomes vastly easier to invade.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
|
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
31
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE. |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Logistics is everything.
People are reluctant to bring large amounts of valuable materials someplace where they and probably could lose it.
Yes it's risk versus reward but the risk is total. What reward could balance that? A station that refines veldspar into Morphite? Does anyone know a good website to upload loudouts too that doesn't try to sell me plexes in between every line? |
baltec1
Bat Country
5487
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right. |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
posting in a stealth Nerf Hisec thread. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1192
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.
Actually, you don't want /everything/ to be available to a single alliance. That means there are no conflict drivers. No resources you want to capture.
And if it's not all available, you then want middlemen with a 'neutral' ground for trade to get the materials you need, to build the things you need to defend your space, and to try and take other people's space. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Sentamon
726
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
You realize the result of this is entrenched stagnant null-sec alliances concerned with nothing but RMT profits. Excellent! That means null becomes vastly easier to invade.
Heh, well assuming everyone isn't allied and you can convince someone to risk their gravy train, good luck invading null when they have a near infinite supply of cheap T1 ships to throw away in defense. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Whitehound
1140
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 13:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
What does industry have to do with any of this?! The difference is in the available resources between null- and high-sec.
When you do not want players to move null-sec resources into high-sec then stop them from doing it. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13075
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Heh, well assuming everyone isn't allied and you can convince someone to risk their gravy train, good luck invading null when they have a near infinite supply of cheap T1 ships to throw away in defense. Since there will be plenty of factions willing to blow them up, and since their bots won't help them in their defence (and since, as you say, they've stagnated and have no real players with any interest in or familiarity with blowing things up), it'll be quite trivial.
Oh, and no, they won't have infinite T1 ships GÇö cuts into profits don't'cha' knowGǪ
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
528
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Part of your problem is you do not understand nullsec industry.
First issue is: You need three stations to do in nullsec what you can do in one highsec station. The outposts are broken down into the four races; the gallente have the most offices, the minmitar has the best refining, the amarr have production slots, and caldari research. That will require 18 mill a day. There's also the problem where the lines do get backed up. Even though they're kinda private the stations don't have near enough production slots to do anything in grad schemes and numbers to support those huge fights in the news. Not to mention there are industry upgrades needed for the good belts. So that's going to require a lot of man power to maintain as it decays without use. Also the stations need to be upgraded. Each upgrade costs minerals, isk, and blue print time. Here's a list.
Second issue is double taxation. Belt ratters get charged one tax for their income per payout; what ever percent that may be. However the industrialists get double taxed for refining and then again when the alliance buys the stuff from the industrial at the discount rate (tax rate).
Another problem is the logistics. The only way to get any fuel, component, or minerals moved is through a jump freighter. Not only are they god damned expensive too buy, the fuel costs cut into any hope of profit. They're a pain to move as well. And you have to use them to import and export to jita. No way can viators handle what a jf can do in a reasonable amount of time.
Those industry upgrades, that I mentioned earlier, actually increase the frequency and quality of the hidden belt. If a neutral pops into local (which they will regularly) the first thing they do is see if they can grab a belt kill. This means that miners gotta stop what they're doing every five to ten minutes. For industry to be conducted in any quantifiable manner, they need to mine for a good bit of time, rather than be interrupted every time. This is why hidden belts rock. Some chancer isn't going to ruin your day for a lazy kill. One roaming sabre can ruin a well planned mining op pdq. When you're in a grav site the neutral actually have to put in a little itty bitty effort to scan a miner's ass down.
The real issue is the amount of minerals needed to conduct an alliance's day to day business (cta, structure grinding, etc). This is why 425mm rails are bought so much. When you see a sov jf kill look at how many rail guns are in the cargo. The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression. Mineral compression is when, during reprocessing, nearly as many minerals are taken out of the item as were put in to produce the item being reprocessed. That costs money for the rails, for the production, for the jump fuel, for the cynos, etc etc.
All this is beyond the realm of highsec industry. Where a highsec miner's biggest issue isn't being able to afk mine in a few areas or the production line.
Before you even think of mentioning moon profit know that a) not everybody has access to tech and b) the profit margins on a non power block complex reaction are around one to two percent. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
529
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
P.S. I don't mean to sound like I am whining. I'm not. I don't even live in nullsec anymore I've moved onto broader horizons. I just remember what it's like. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1027
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Well, lets look at this from the perspective of reality.
Do western counties have more industry than say African or middle Eastern countries? Why is that....what could possibly be the reason? As a business person, do you want your business in a well controlled, stable society or one that might explode into tribal warfare at any time?
So, I guess it's only the null people that want a place that can erupt into tribal warfare with +1000 spearchuckers running around like mad-men destroying everything in their wake to have better industry than hs. Your logic is impeccable!
Speaking for the rest of the universe....no thanks, we'll keep our industry in HS so the price of our ships don't fluctuate from reasonable to insane every other day. HTFU!...for the children! |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right.
Should it be made more risky?
Pvp and all that class of stuff. This is not a signature. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Onomerous wrote:
Making null interact with hi-sec may be by design... and moving stuff around leads to destruction of goods which is a necessary part of EVE.
You can jump freighter goods directly out of jita to low sec and then on to null. Its rather riskless if you do it right. Should it be made more risky? Pvp and all that class of stuff. If we have industry facilities in null sec that are superior to high sec so that we would need to JF stuff in, that would actually increase the risk to us because these would be facilities that you could capture, disrupt, or destroy.
Done correctly it would be a proper conflict driver, would actually incentivize holding space, and increase nullsec self-sufficiency. It would also likely result in a lot of industry characters relocating to nullsec. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1193
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression.
Not quite, actually. The Gaze Survey Probe is pretty good competition for it.
Though you'll spend double (or so) the time making them. You'll get a third again the trit from it however.
Less Pyerite (around half), a little more isogen, a little less mexallon and no highends.
GSP 160m3 of minerals compressed to 5m3
425mm rail 1400m3 compressed to 50 m3
Depends what you need, of course.
(Throw in some Ultraviolet XL to make up the pyerite you need) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Arcosian
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
58
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. I agree that nullsec indy should be somewhat self sufficient at least with basic stuff like minerals and manufacturing/research slots. As of right now there isn't much infrastructure in terms of manufacturing slot availability. Outposts lack the necessary slots for even small scale production and since only 1 can be placed per system you would have to travel around or us POS.
People claim that manufacturing with POS is the way to go in null but it's too risky. This is due to POS roles severely lacking when it comes to securing who can start/cancel jobs, not to mention only corp members can access those slots. For null to be "fixed" indy wise it needs to have a basic infrastructure like high does now where anyone can use it. But there will always be some dependence on high for empire materials like data cores/faction mods. This leads into my next point of JF
As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in.
This is also the reason we see huge blobs of caps and new ones being built very rapidly. Sure there are people out in null mining for mins but why do that when you can JF a couple loads of 425mm rails from high and reprocess it to build a titan? I'm my opinion removing JF and mineral compression would actually make it harder to build caps since it would be easier to mine in null than import from high. Making caps harder to build means people would be less willing to risk them so all the hotdrop/blob whining we see on the forums would finally stop. Null would have to develop indy or convoy supplies in and how many fights would be generated by opposing alliances trying to kill supply convoys?
There shouldn't be a problem with getting low end minerals in null with bigger rocks and instant respawning grav sites. Huge alliance like TEST/Goons/Solar should be able to field a huge number of miners since they have 5000+ people and not have to JF minerals in, much less out to jita. Null should be supplying null not exporting everything to Jita. |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
581
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now?
so yes. totally flawed |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1193
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Arcosian wrote: People claim that manufacturing with POS is the way to go in null but it's too risky. This is due to POS roles severely lacking when it comes to securing who can start/cancel jobs, not to mention only corp members can access those slots. For null to be "fixed" indy wise it needs to have a basic infrastructure like high does now where anyone can use it. But there will always be some dependence on high for empire materials like data cores/faction mods. This leads into my next point of JF
This.
This is one of the major issues with making stuff.
In high, you can start jobs and they're perfectly safe from your fellow corp members.
Being able to launch a POS that /only/ you can access. Or part of a POS that is just yours, that will help a lot. And it'd help with removing one of the reasons for people to have single player corps (can't trust people with your resources) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13076
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now? Close but not quite. The correct answer is simply no-one. What the game does, however, is force them to do it in highsec. This is bad from pretty much every perspective. It means that you get stuff for free; it means you don't get anything extra for making an effort; it means large swaths of game content is useless and redundant; it means there is no way to attack the industrial backbone of larger alliances; it means there is no dynamics in the industrial part of the game; it means there is no incentive to hunt for better industrial foundations.
So yes, they chose this way (doing it in highsec) and they rightfully whine about it because it doesn't make sense that the game should force them to do their work in a part of space they are not interested in living in.
Quote:so yes. totally flawed Not in the slightest. The premise that harder work shold yield better reward is at the very core in of the game.
What is flawed, however, is every single premise borne out of whatever brain-damage that causes people to believe that high should provide anything that even barely reaches above the level of being much much much worse industry than every other part of space in the game. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
As high sec carebear, I'd say.... of course null industry should be better than high sec.
I would not mind seeing low sec rocks produce 2x the mins of high and null rocks produce 4x high. I would no mind seeing the cost of high sec production lines increased. I would not mind seeing high sec POS tower sizes limited to small.
The biggest buff null industry is some form of defense against the AFK cloaky. Maybe something like a cloak jammer, or maybe just probes that can scan out a cloaked ship.
If those things were to accompany things I really want, like 25 hours between GT vs 24 hr, so every timezone gets equal treatment...
Heck, I may even consider leaving high sec again. Maybe. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
5487
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:As high sec carebear, I'd say.... of course null industry should be better than high sec.
I would not mind seeing low sec rocks produce 2x the mins of high and null rocks produce 4x high. I would no mind seeing the cost of high sec production lines increased. I would not mind seeing high sec POS tower sizes limited to small.
The biggest buff null industry is some form of defense against the AFK cloaky. Maybe something like a cloak jammer, or maybe just probes that can scan out a cloaked ship.
If those things were to accompany things I really want, like 25 hours between GT vs 24 hr, so every timezone gets equal treatment...
Heck, I may even consider leaving high sec again. Maybe.
A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tippia wrote: What is flawed, however, is every single premise borne out of whatever brain-damage that causes people to believe that high should provide anything that even barely reaches above the level of being much much much worse industry than every other part of space in the game.
Because a large number of players are carebears, and a large number of them fund their accounts on PLEX, there HAS to be a place that is (relatively safe), that allows people to go about their business (mostly) unmolested, to guarantee a way to grind the ISK needed to keep the accounts funded.
So, there is a baseline below which high can't be nerfed, and that baseline is the ability to make enough ISK in high sec, that someone else will trade a months subscription for that ISK.
CCP has looked at buffing pay for other game mechanics above this base level. Incursions, Domination's additional anoms, etc. Every time they attempt to buff an activity above the PLEX baseline, the result is the same... MASSSIVE ISK inflation as a few wallets grow amazingly fat, in short order.
It isn't that CCP doesn't want to make other things pay better than the necessary high sec PLEX baseline. It is just that every attempt to do so has had undesirable, unintended, side-effects, and they've had to back out or nerf the changes. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now? so yes. totally flawed That argument doesn't even make any sense. Of course nobody's forcing us to risk our assets and work hard to build what we have in nullsec. That doesn't mean we don't deserve to have our hard work rewarded. That's ridiculous. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers.
Not hardly. Have you heard of the cov ops cyno, that is not jammed even by a system cyno jammer?
This was bad when I was last in null a year or so ago, and has only gotten worse with recent buffs to black ops jump range and jump portal range. There is no effective defense against an afk cloaky with a cov ops cyno. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4125
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Why do you need to defend yourself against someone who isn't actually playing the game?
Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13077
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Because a large number of players are carebears, and a large number of them fund their accounts on PLEX, there HAS to be a place that is (relatively safe), that allows people to go about their business (mostly) unmolested, to guarantee a way to grind the ISK needed to keep the accounts funded. No, there really hasn't. If they can't afford the game, then maybe they should consider cutting down on their spending. If they absolutely have to use PLEXes, for some inconceivable reason, then maybe they should look into something more lucrative than solely relying on highsec industry.
If anything, CCP should probably do their best to knock this silly sense of entitlement out of as many as possible, since it's apparently the cause of so much game balance problems. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why do you need to defend yourself against someone who isn't actually playing the game?
Becasue at any moment, he can return to the game from 8 hours of being afk, light a cyno, and your multi-billion iSK mining fleet is reduced to wreckage.
One AFK cloaky means virtually all industry stops in a solar system.
You can't mine, you can't undock freighter, you can't use expensive PVE ships to run anoms... All you can do is relocate, and where you are relocating too is not going to have the same upgrades, same resources, etc. So, maybe you spend months building up that new place. To what end? Just to have yet another AFK cloaky show up and shut it down?
Doesn't take more than once or twice for this to happen, people throw their hands up in frustration, and return to high sec.
I know, I've seen me do it a couple times. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
197
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hrm.... Don't we already have a 40 page threadnaught on this?
Anyways. Any buff to null should result in an equal buff to WH space. As buffing null just helps people in alliances.
You shouldn't be punished for being a small corp. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Because a large number of players are carebears, and a large number of them fund their accounts on PLEX, there HAS to be a place that is (relatively safe), that allows people to go about their business (mostly) unmolested, to guarantee a way to grind the ISK needed to keep the accounts funded. No, there really hasn't. If they can't afford the game, then maybe they should consider cutting down on their spending. If they absolutely have to use PLEXes, for some inconceivable reason, then maybe they should look into something more lucrative than solely relying on highsec industry. If anything, CCP should probably do their best to knock this silly sense of entitlement out of as many as possible, since it's apparently the cause of so much game balance problems.
What you are saying is that CCP should just go ahead and accept a massive revenue drop, to get rid of the players that don't play the way you want them to play. It is NEVER going to happen, so stop wasting time and effort demanding that they do this. CCP has created high sec the way it is, exactly BECAUSE they want the revenue from these carebears that want a relatively safe place to grind isk, largely unmolested.
Your efforts to get high nerfed below the minimum level needed to fund PLEX are a total waste of time. CCP will never do it. Your time would be better spent playing the game the way you enjoy playing it instead of trying to force others to play the way you want them to play or gtfo. |
Vince Snetterton
255
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Why are we seeing another thread about this? CCP shut down a 110 page threadnaught about this last month.
They got the message. It is going to happen.
This guy clearly has not got the message from the null sec propaganda teams that is fait accompli.
High sec industry will be hugely hammered, in order to "re-balance" the game.
I agree that null and wormholes should have easily attainable 100% refine at stations and POS's respectively. I lived in both for quite some time and I always thought was unfair. I would also go as far as to see the amount of mfg/science slots be increased at player owned stations to be on par with high sec/low sec stations.
But neither of these changes will encourage null sec industry,. There are far far more lucrative activities per hour in null sec than mining , or going through the clickfest of invention / manufacturing. The only way it will change is if CCP somehow manages to push industry into the 100 M / hour range.
The only way that happens is to give null complete control of T2 mfg, so they can control it as they do moon goo. (BTW folks, test has announced they are now trying to control neo and other goos as they do tech. ) That means removing it from high sec, with a subsequent enormous increase in prices, and hence profit margins. Oh, and WHEN, not if, CCP introduces superveld and superscordite to null sec to create vastly more rich mining opportunities, the resulting crash in low end mins in high sec will destroy mining profitability. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7972
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
It would be good if productive activities were viable in all zones. Ideally, each zone would be dominant in one speciality, and co-equal in the others. Eg: Hi-sec might become easily the best place for invention, but then 0.0 should be definitely superior for eg: T2 production, and so on. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
baltec1
Bat Country
5488
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers.
Not hardly. Have you heard of the cov ops cyno, that is not jammed even by a system cyno jammer? This was bad when I was last in null a year or so ago, and has only gotten worse with recent buffs to black ops jump range and jump portal range. There is no effective defense against an afk cloaky with a cov ops cyno.
Sure there is.
I have a raven I use for bomber blasting, just use your intel tools. You can use an inexpensive rifter for most AFK cloakies and not give a damn if they cyno drop you. |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
254
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
It would be good if productive activities were viable in all zones. Ideally, each zone would be dominant in one speciality, and co-equal in the others. Eg: Hi-sec might become easily the best place for invention, but then 0.0 should be definitely superior for eg: T2 production, and so on.
This. Thank you.
www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers.
Not hardly. Have you heard of the cov ops cyno, that is not jammed even by a system cyno jammer? This was bad when I was last in null a year or so ago, and has only gotten worse with recent buffs to black ops jump range and jump portal range. There is no effective defense against an afk cloaky with a cov ops cyno. Sure there is. I have a raven I use for bomber blasting, just use your intel tools. You can use an inexpensive rifter for most AFK cloakies and not give a damn if they cyno drop you.
What?
Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?
Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?
|
Vince Snetterton
255
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 15:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Pure hyperbole and rhetoric.
You are a funny man...really. There was never a problem with high sec industry until the last 12 months or so, once null sec had figured they had industrialized null sec profitability to a fine art. Then they started casting their eyes at other parts of the game, and started the propaganda campaign "high sec rich, null sec poor, nerf high sec".
Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap? Then tell me how many members of high sec can afford a supercap if they sold everything they have?
Oh right, you can't since CCP has placed an embargo on detailed economic data.
You know, you might have some credibility if you were screaming from the mountaintops demanding CCP release tons of economic data about the income levels in all aspects of he game, in order to do some actual analysis about what people are actually making, so real fact based proposals could be made.
But no, you and the rest of the null sec cabal just utilize a huge propaganda campaign to try to convince forum readers that rhetoric is actual fact. Not long ago I remember some guys in the states using this methodology to invade a country, bomb it back to the stone age, and plunder its oil. You guys are not dumb, that is for sure. You see what political methods work, and wield them with great aplomb. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1068
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
It should be similar as in hisec you know station slots, refining and stuff |
baltec1
Bat Country
5490
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:
What?
Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?
Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?
Have it on standby. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:
What?
Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?
Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?
Have it on standby.
Again, I don't understand.
The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out.
How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this? |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Well, lets look at this from the perspective of reality. Do western counties have more industry than say African or middle Eastern countries? Why is that....what could possibly be the reason? As a business person, do you want your business in a well controlled, stable society or one that might explode into tribal warfare at any time? So, I guess it's only the null people that want a place that can erupt into tribal warfare with +1000 spearchuckers running around like mad-men destroying everything in their wake to have better industry than hs. Your logic is impeccable! Speaking for the rest of the universe....no thanks, we'll keep our industry in HS so the price of our ships don't fluctuate from reasonable to insane every other day.
Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too. It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3482
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:baltec1 wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:What?
Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?
Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec? Have it on standby. Again, I don't understand. The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out. How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this? It doesn't. You're gonna be bent over and chased around by cloaky campers, or else you'll suddenly be attacked by black ops battleships and bombers and T3s, or maybe even find a subcap fleet bridges onto you via titan.
EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3482
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too. It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy In this case though, thanks to the magic police and such, it's really so much safer to make it in the developed country, you'd have to be some sort of compulsive gambler to make it elsewhere.
CONCORD, the protection we all need. Local, the protection we "all" get.
Nerf local, buff CONCORD. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Null sec industry shouldn't be the hard road that it is currently, but those that take the time to scheme and buy their own sov should be able to do it efficiently. Right now (as I understand it) it's not efficient at all. Industry in null (sov & NPC) can certainly be tweaked to make it possible for large corps and alliances to do their thing without having to run to Jita or Hek/Rens or Amarr to keep their infrastructure in place.
Should it be as safe as in high sec? Of course not. Having a successful industry infrastructure in null should be just as volatile and at risk as any other infrastructure in null, and just as open to attack. Making industry in null should NOT EVER mean giving them an Easy Button: just apply the risk formula there as it needs to be for null; don't just duplicate what's in high, because the risks are (and should be) quite different.
Should industry in high sec be castrated (nerfed) to make this happen? Of course not. I would love to move my corps into blue null to get me work done and sell my swag to friendlies, but right now it just can't happen. I can't get the materials I need in null at competitive prices (I said "competitive", not Jita-like) that I need to do my thing. The same thing applies to null, from what I see. Make the base materials more available to those willing to sink the infrastructure to make it happen, and it should pay off. But I don't buy the notion that high sec has to be castrated to make that happen because some are too lazy to MAKE IT HAPPEN in null. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." -á --- Sorlac |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too. It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy In this case though, thanks to the magic police and such, it's really so much safer to make it in the developed country, you'd have to be some sort of compulsive gambler to make it elsewhere. CONCORD, the protection we all need. Local, the protection we "all" get. Nerf local, buff CONCORD.
Paid for by taxes, sorry I've edited my post since then, which should be a lot higher in High than Null |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge.
EXACTLY, which is a big reason why I'm back in high sec. I can easily make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded with PLEX, without the hassle that is null. With no defense to AFK cloakies, there is no way to ensure I can make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded in null.
IF you want to lure more people out of high sec and into null, then you need to fix broken game mechanics like cloak and inability to boot people from corp unless they are docked.
IF you attempt the opposite, making high as risky as null, you will not get people to move to null. You will simply cause us to quit playing. CCP knows this, which is why they have created high sec the way it is, and have resisted all calls to nerf the F out of high.
They've tried the opposite.. increasing the rewards of other activities to lure people out of high, and it has been an economic disaster each time it was tried. |
Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
This is a secret nerf hisec thread.. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Again, I don't understand.
The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out.
How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this?
it helps because 9 times out of 10 its a solo bomber. You also can use intel to tell if the guy in local is likely to have a cyno or not. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread..
No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away. |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:31:00 -
[58] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread..
Not really that secret. I mean, the questions being asked, but nobody thinks that null sec industry should be nerfed do they? |
Le Badass
Zealots of Bob
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3482
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:33:00 -
[60] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge. EXACTLY, which is a big reason why I'm back in high sec. I can easily make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded with PLEX, without the hassle that is null. With no defense to AFK cloakies, there is no way to ensure I can make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded in null. This is the way it should be. The coldness and harshness of EVE Online must be kept at bay via the constant vigilance and jammers/scramblers/guns of CONCORD.
In highsec only (for now - coming soon to a lowsec near you, perhaps ?! )
LHA Tarawa wrote:IF you attempt the opposite, making high as risky as null, you will not get people to move to null. You will simply cause us to quit playing. CCP knows this, which is why they have created high sec the way it is, and have resisted all calls to nerf the F out of high. Highsec is the sacred security status of EVE Online. It only becomes safer, eventually it will converge on being a NO PVPS EVER region.
LHA Tarawa wrote:They've tried the opposite.. increasing the rewards of other activities to lure people out of high, and it has been an economic disaster each time it was tried. Yeah, like when they were told the FW was broken and ignored it, then it was bent over like a cheap to the tune of trillions. Then they didn't ignore it anymore. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
76
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread.. No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.
But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play.. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:34:00 -
[62] - Quote
Le Badass wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.
That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry... |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Here it goes. Why do people just assume this is about, ooh I want more people to shoot at. It really isn't that simple.
The point is this: If you are an industrial player in null, you are at massive disadvantage to anyone who stays in high.
Why would any industrial move to Null?
There should be a reason, but there isn't. I think this threads gone to the trolls. Shame as there are some people who actually attempt to rationalise arguments on both sides. Most of the people in here are just having a spaz |
baltec1
Bat Country
5492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote:Onomerous wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread.. No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away. But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..
"Goonspiricies" |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3482
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:Onomerous wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread.. No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away. But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play.. "Conspiricies" Little? You clearly haven't seen daBIGredboat.
Well, he's not a "goonie" but he might as well be to the informed participants in GENERAL DISCUSSION. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Le Badass wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...
Right, it isnt about moving all Industry to Null. Just making it worthwhile for those that do.
Its more profitable to PVE in Null, yet the majority do it in Hi sec. Why would this be different.
Also, not better, just not massively gimped |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1023
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.
All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13077
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Le Badass wrote:Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry... Yes, fallacies such as the one Le Badass just offered are confusing. It's not an actual argument for null having better industry, though.
The actual arguments for that pretty much all make sense, if you happen to know of them.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.
All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down.
From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers.
If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.
Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky.
|
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 16:58:00 -
[70] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Abrazzar wrote:From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.
All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down. From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers. If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec. Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky.
Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3482
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec. Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection. Further reason why you should stay in highsec. Easier, safer, more-profit-er, BETTER.
Higsec4lyfe Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:04:00 -
[72] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:[ Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist.
How does that make the game better? |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec. Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection. Further reason why you should stay in highsec. Easier, safer, more-profit-er, BETTER. Higsec4lyfe
Haha. I'm not saying people shouldn't, just give people looking for more ways to make money effectively more options. TBF mate, your making my point for me again. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1024
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Abrazzar wrote:From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.
All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down. From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers. If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec. Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky. Did you miss the part where I proposed that they were ratting and not sitting in your belt? That's how they can spend their time doing something they might need doing anyway and can support the local industrials.
Also you could offer them replacement ships (and implants) should a fight happen, so they can throw themselves against the invading forces, giving your industrials time to warp off. And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.
With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.
You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection. tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist. How does that make the game better? Exactly, if you ever dare touch highsec (in a bad way) all the unsubs will kill EVE instantly !! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:09:00 -
[76] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:[ Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist. How does that make the game better?
For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.
And for the gamewide benefits
More emergant gameplay. More diverse gameplay. More players in places that aren't Jita. Less load on Jita. More Market hubs. More profit for the little guy (+/-1 traders wont have the same hold as not everyone will just be using major hubs). That's just the effects on High sec.
Come at me brosef, your closed mindedness intimidates me little |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.
With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.
You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling. Nerf blobbing. No troll, bro. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4126
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Le Badass wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry... It's only confusing because you've gotten it into your head that that's what nullsec represents, which doesn't actually match up to the reality of nullsec. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:13:00 -
[79] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares. Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex.... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares. Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex....
Just realised I misread what you said. Fail |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares. Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex.... And there's nobody else going to buy it? Holding EVE to ransom over Hi sec is quite silly. Not so, it's been done since time immemorial, the great weapon that allows highsec to get ALL the buffs and stand firm Against ALL Nerfs. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:26:00 -
[82] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares. Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex.... And there's nobody else going to buy it? Holding EVE to ransom over Hi sec is quite silly. Not so, it's been done since time immemorial, the great weapon that allows highsec to get ALL the buffs and stand firm Against ALL Nerfs.
Children act like children. Does't mean the behaviour is childish. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:27:00 -
[83] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Did you miss the part where I proposed that they were ratting and not sitting in your belt? That's how they can spend their time doing something they might need doing anyway and can support the local industrials.
Your 0.0 experience is a lot different from mine. No one rats when there is a cloaky neutral in system, because teh cyno he lights is just as likely to bring a black ops fleet to destroy your PVE ship as it is to blow up my mining fleet.
All industry and PVE shuts down when an AFK cloaky shows up.
Abrazzar wrote: Also you could offer them replacement ships (and implants) should a fight happen, so they can throw themselves against the invading forces, giving your industrials time to warp off. And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.
Since they have all the intel they need, they have the power to ensure they only come when they have the firepower to win.
Abrazzar wrote: With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.
You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling.
Maybe you missed all my other posts where I say my number one goal in EVE is to not give other players kills? There is no profit in it. I'd rather lose 2 billion ISK by not undocking, then undock, mine 2 billion iSK and lose 200 million in ships. Why? Because that 200 million ship loss is not in a vacuume. That 200 million ISK loss brings more sharks looking for kills.
The ONLY defense to the griefing war dec, or the AFK cloaky, is to ensure they do NOT get what they want... kills. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:42:00 -
[84] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Your 0.0 experience is a lot different from mine. No one rats when there is a cloaky neutral in system, because teh cyno he lights is just as likely to bring a black ops fleet to destroy your PVE ship as it is to blow up my mining fleet.
All industry and PVE shuts down when an AFK cloaky shows up. This is the way it should be. Without the ability for a handful of people to shut down an alliance's line-member isk making, blobs would rule the world.
LHA Tarawa wrote:Abrazzar wrote: And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out. Since they have all the intel they need, they have the power to ensure they only come when they have the firepower to win. Exactly. Plus, your ships are miners or else PVE fit ratters. You wouldn't be able to do much against a fleet prepared to kill you.
Also, trying to reimburse would totally make you better off with highsec's CONCORD protection.
LHA Tarawa wrote:Abrazzar wrote:With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.
You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling. Maybe you missed all my other posts where I say my number one goal in EVE is to not give other players kills? There is no profit in it. I'd rather lose 2 billion ISK by not undocking, then undock, mine 2 billion iSK and lose 200 million in ships. Why? Because that 200 million ship loss is not in a vacuume. That 200 million ISK loss brings more sharks looking for kills. The ONLY defense to the griefing war dec, or the AFK cloaky, is to ensure they do NOT get what they want... kills. Exactly, you're trolling the "PVP"ers who just want easy kills. Stay docked or in that POS. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7974
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Malcanis wrote: Pure hyperbole and rhetoric. You are a funny man...really. There was never a problem with high sec industry until the last 12 months or so, once null sec had figured they had industrialized null sec profitability to a fine art. Then they started casting their eyes at other parts of the game, and started the propaganda campaign "high sec rich, null sec poor, nerf high sec". Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap? Then tell me how many members of high sec can afford a supercap if they sold everything they have? Oh right, you can't since CCP has placed an embargo on detailed economic data. You know, you might have some credibility if you were screaming from the mountaintops demanding CCP release tons of economic data about the income levels in all aspects of he game, in order to do some actual analysis about what people are actually making, so real fact based proposals could be made. But no, you and the rest of the null sec cabal just utilize a huge propaganda campaign to try to convince forum readers that rhetoric is actual fact. Not long ago I remember some guys in the states using this methodology to invade a country, bomb it back to the stone age, and plunder its oil. You guys are not dumb, that is for sure. You see what political methods work, and wield them with great aplomb.
I see you're afraid to address the things I actually said, preferring instead to imagine things I said and yell about them.
You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.
I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.
Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:46:00 -
[86] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.
I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.
Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor. Maybe it is a new bot that generates rants for you.
Also, what do you mean, we are going to eradicate highsec - at least until CCP steps in with NPCs and game mechanics to stop us.
I am enjoying myself, please don't stop him from posting. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7974
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcanis wrote:You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.
I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.
Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor. Maybe it is a new bot that generates rants for you. Also, what do you mean, we are going to eradicate highsec - at least until CCP steps in with NPCs and game mechanics to stop us. I am enjoying myself, please don't stop him from posting.
I respect that he cares passionately about the game. I just wish the energy he puts into defending it wasn't so badly misdirected.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4126
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:57:00 -
[88] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap? Sure as hell not me or most people I know. If we all had the isk to put ourselves in supercaps we wouldn't have a problem with people ratting when they're supposed to be deployed. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3483
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:00:00 -
[89] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap? Sure as hell not me or most people I know. If we all had the isk to put ourselves in supercaps we wouldn't have a problem with people ratting when they're supposed to be deployed. But people ratted with titans, so...
I am a nullsec zealot. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3904
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed.
What's flawed is the belief that sov null sec deserves best reward when NPC null sec and low sec are where the highest risk is.
Low sec and NPC null sec should be the place for the highest rewards, not sov null sec. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Zircon Dasher
141
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:49:00 -
[91] - Quote
I have been gone from the game for some time, and gone from null even longer, but after reading the CSM notes I kind of wonder why the best reasons for significantly altering the industrial landscape (in addition to other areas of the game) are being left out of the discussion.
Anyway, I will throw my opinion into the ring just in case anyone with the ability to actually effect an outcome cares: In general I think Malcanis has the right idea about shifting the general types of industry that are 'bonused' or found (in large degree) in different space. However, type shifting will be a short-term disaster if done in a vacuum and needs to have other ground clearing work done first (or in conjunction with.... but I am trying to avoid the 'uber-patch' mindset). The question that should be discussed, by thread-derailment if need be, is how people envision the type shift. RvR is mostly a pointless discussion and saps a lot of generative energy.
In the long-run (IMO) production capacity needs a significant increase in null and a significant decrease in high. Moreover, null needs a significant decrease in reprocessing capacity and a significant increase in refining capacity. In regards to high, the inverse of the refining capacity needs to occur. Invention, research, and/or copying should be biased away from null- be it high or low- even though the manufacturing should be biased away from high -be it null or low. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3904
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:52:00 -
[92] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote:Onomerous wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote:This is a secret nerf hisec thread.. No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away. But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..
Considering the OP has James315 in his signature and that James315 was a goon, then you may consider them invited to the thread since post #1. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dark Reignz
Four-Q
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:12:00 -
[93] - Quote
Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.
Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.
Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.
There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.
How about that ?
No ?
Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1172
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 19:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed. What's flawed is the belief that sov null sec deserves best reward when NPC null sec and low sec are where the highest risk is. Low sec and NPC null sec should be the place for the highest rewards, not sov null sec.
Sov null inherently has the highest risk and investment cost out of all areas. The only reason it is considered "safer" is due to player interaction(intel channels, scouts, etc). For example I can leave my stuff in npc null station and go away for 1 week and not have to worry. If I leave it in a Sov null station, there is a chance I could lose access to it within the same week. Lets not mention the billions required to maintain SOV in said systems which can be attacked. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:03:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Onomerous wrote:Le Badass wrote:Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry... Yes, fallacies such as the one Le Badass just offered are confusing. It's not an actual argument for null having better industry, though, so seeing as how this non-argument is the most confusing one, it can only mean one thing: The actual arguments for that pretty much all make sense, if you happen to know of them.
wtf? Your rebuttal makes no sense... |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:05:00 -
[96] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Onomerous wrote:Le Badass wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core. That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry... It's only confusing because you've gotten it into your head that that's what nullsec represents, which doesn't actually match up to the reality of nullsec.
So null sec is just as developed as hi-sec? I honestly do not understand your line of thought. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5496
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:07:00 -
[97] - Quote
Dark Reignz wrote:Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.
Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.
Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.
There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.
How about that ?
No ?
Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing
A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you? |
Whim Aqayn
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:11:00 -
[98] - Quote
Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.
At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively. |
Dark Reignz
Four-Q
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:19:00 -
[99] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dark Reignz wrote:Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.
Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.
Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.
There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.
How about that ?
No ?
Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0 That doesn't sound broken to you?
Lookidat map - active users in the last 30 mins : http://oi46.tinypic.com/2r5dtvb.jpg
In a word....... NO
Edit: On the flip side, and coincidentally, there are more people in one Caldari high sec system than there are in MOST OF null sec brah. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3486
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:22:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dark Reignz wrote:baltec1 wrote:A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you? Lookidat map - active users in the last 30 mins : http://oi46.tinypic.com/2r5dtvb.jpgIn a word....... NO Highsec needs even MORE slots !! Quick give them more of what they came to eve online for : easy low risk gameplay. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:23:00 -
[101] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1172
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.
Doubt many would pass up the chance of building where they live, instead of the current method. Having to do logistics in deep null can be a pain. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:33:00 -
[103] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. Doubt many would pass up the chance of building where they live, instead of the current method. Having to do logistics in deep null can be a pain. I too doubt many would pass it up, but that isn't all. And taking advantage of all the game has to offer isn't exactly a ubiquitous attribute amongst the players. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3904
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: Sov null inherently has the highest risk and investment cost out of all areas. The only reason it is considered "safer" is due to player interaction(intel channels, scouts, etc). For example I can leave my stuff in npc null station and go away for 1 week and not have to worry. If I leave it in a Sov null station, there is a chance I could lose access to it within the same week. Lets not mention the billions required to maintain SOV in said systems which can be attacked.
Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).
NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
5497
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:44:00 -
[105] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).
NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared.
NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:52:00 -
[106] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha] NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.
Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc. |
LOL56
Galactic Express
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:52:00 -
[107] - Quote
It should be innately the worst in the game, nearly nonexistent, literately just belts and whatever stations are or are not around, but sov and station upgrades should be able to to MAKE it into the best by a good margin. T1 production for local needs, at the very least, should occur primary on site, as opposed to shipping every last round of ammunition, drone, book, hull, implants and everything else from Jita. Don't get me wrong, if you want a T2 hull or a set of HG implants, Jita should still be the place to go, but for a few hundred thousand cruises missiles or a dozen thrashers, local production should rule. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2218
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:53:00 -
[108] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done
It has to be better than empire. In order for someone to be convinced to move their industry operations from The Forge to someplace 40-80 jumps away which will be difficult to get to, transport materials to and from and need to be defended. . |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:00:00 -
[109] - Quote
When I'd fly from Jel to 6qbh in stain (roughly 60 jumps) I'd find more danger from the last 3 jumps of NPC null as well as the small 2 lowsec system hop (Gondista) than I would through the 18-30 jumps through SOV space (Test and Tribal).
Just me, flying through, no scout, no protection.
Sov is not more dangerous. Even for a trespasser. Not to mention those who are saying THEIR sov space is riskier....
Please. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3487
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:09:00 -
[110] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:Primary Me wrote:A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done It has to be better than empire. In order for someone to be convinced to move their industry operations from The Forge to someplace 40-80 jumps away which will be difficult to get to, transport materials to and from and need to be defended. Welp, I guess it's doomed then, since highsec must be the best or at most only a small smidgen behind in order to avoid MASS HIGHSEC UNSUBS. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:47:00 -
[111] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
baltec1
Bat Country
5497
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:53:00 -
[112] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:baltec1 wrote:[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha] NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations. Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc.
None of those things matter, all you need is intel. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:55:00 -
[113] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).
NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared.
NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.
Sure, I recall how secure it was to go to, dock and then undock off the central hub in the 2 NPC null sec regions I have been. It "just" involved having to always bring 20 carriers and supporting fleet and removing the double bubbles people every time.
I also recall how secure it was to fly L4 missions 2 jumps away, there were just 40 neutrals or reds off several warring alliances in local at any given hour of the day.
When I was in sov null sec (once as owner, once as renter) intel chat and a scout were the maximum needed to roam for 5-6 systems, the danger would eventually come from WHs not from the nearby null sec systems.
Keep trying convincing easily impressed randoms who read this forum, it does not work with me. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:55:00 -
[114] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:baltec1 wrote:[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha] NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations. Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc. None of those things matter, all you need is intel. Nerf local. I am a nullsec zealot. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5497
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:55:00 -
[115] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at.
VFK sees more traffic and trade than most high sec systems. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:When I'd fly from Jel to 6qbh in stain (roughly 60 jumps) I'd find more danger from the last 3 jumps of NPC null as well as the small 2 lowsec system hop (Gondista) than I would through the 18-30 jumps through SOV space (Test and Tribal).
Just me, flying through, no scout, no protection.
Sov is not more dangerous. Even for a trespasser. Not to mention those who are saying THEIR sov space is riskier....
Please.
Exactly. One of those NPC null sec areas I have lived was exactly Stain, around 5J. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7976
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:57:00 -
[117] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.
You can literally spend a trillion ISK and not have a region with more slots than the best hi-sec systems.
Let's reverse the situation: imagine that it cost a trillion ISK to rent the same hi-sec slot capacity as could be obtained in a single 0.0 system. Would that be OK with you? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7976
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 21:59:00 -
[118] - Quote
Whim Aqayn wrote:Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.
At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively.
I have used my magical time machine to make both of those things happen. Job done.
Now let's get on with the rebalance. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
baltec1
Bat Country
5497
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 22:03:00 -
[119] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Sure, I recall how secure it was to go to, dock and then undock off the central hub in the 2 NPC null sec regions I have been. It "just" involved having to always bring 20 carriers and supporting fleet and removing the double bubbles people every time.
I also recall how secure it was to fly L4 missions 2 jumps away, there were just 40 neutrals or reds off several warring alliances in local at any given hour of the day.
When I was in sov null sec (once as owner, once as renter) intel chat and a scout were the maximum needed to roam for 5-6 systems, the danger would eventually come from WHs not from the nearby null sec systems.
Keep trying convincing easily impressed randoms who read this forum, it does not work with me.
Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 22:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Whim Aqayn wrote:Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.
At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively. I have used my magical time machine to make both of those things happen. Job done. Now let's get on with the rebalance. We need to buff highsec industry more. And make it safer. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 22:14:00 -
[121] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. You can literally spend a trillion ISK and not have a region with more slots than the best hi-sec systems. Let's reverse the situation: imagine that it cost a trillion ISK to rent the same hi-sec slot capacity as could be obtained in a single 0.0 system. Would that be OK with you? One quick thing to point out. Highsec is amongst other things a good starting point and home to smaller and newer individuals and entities for a variety of activities including industry. The barrier of entry is intentionally low to be inclusive of a wide array of players.
In regard to this particular comparison my comment was simply to point out that a single metric being used as a meter stick was probably a bad overall sticking point since, as one part is highly player activity influenced, there is no guarantee that that specific situation would be reversed even if the means to do so were more obtainable.
All that said I conceded the current imbalance in that statement and more directly a few posts later. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 22:52:00 -
[122] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at. VFK sees more traffic and trade than most high sec systems. 50th percentile, maybe.
Even a total backwater of highsec like Derelik has plenty of systems with multiple times the activity, and a couple that might match the activity levels of Deklein as a whole.
I'm just not seeing where nullsec has a large enough market to justify much more than shipping a tiny portion of highsec's production out there.
If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 22:56:00 -
[123] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it.
The simple fact that we DID bring the 20 carriers + support needed to do our business easily disproves your argument.
The simple fact that we DID need to bring such firepower, to do what in sov null sec would be a regular delivery of some stuff to sell, easily disproves that NPC null sec risk is comparable to sov null sec in any way.
Edit: also, not every alliance is composed of thousands upon thousands of warm bodies to carry around. But hey, your blob-tastic approach to anything in game easily explains your sympathy to brute force solve with numbers what should not need them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3492
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 23:57:00 -
[124] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:One quick thing to point out. Highsec is amongst other things a good starting point and home to smaller and newer individuals and entities for a variety of activities including industry. The barrier of entry is intentionally low to be inclusive of a wide array of players. Highsec needs to be the best for THE NEWBIESSSSSSSSS I am a nullsec zealot. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 00:06:00 -
[125] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:One quick thing to point out. Highsec is amongst other things a good starting point and home to smaller and newer individuals and entities for a variety of activities including industry. The barrier of entry is intentionally low to be inclusive of a wide array of players. Highsec needs to be the best for THE NEWBIESSSSSSSSS Accessible doesn't necessarily mean best. And newbs aren't the only ones ever short on resources or isk. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1883
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 00:21:00 -
[126] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:[ Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist. How does that make the game better? You seriously overestimate your worth and the number of people "like you". There are over 100k players that lives in null (it's probably far above that but that's irrelevant), almost everyone I've met has an alt in hisec. Be it a mere pricechecker, up to Incursion runner or a full time miner. Another thing, not everyone in hisec deals with industry, and you highly underestimate the ability for people to adapt, especially newer players that haven't been too attached to certain aspects of the game yet.
So no, even if everyone "like you" left, CCP goes bankrupt is the least possible scenario that could happen. "I'd rather have other players-áget shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 01:12:00 -
[127] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote: You seriously overestimate your worth and the number of people "like you". There are over 100k players that lives in null (it's probably far above that but that's irrelevant), almost everyone I've met has an alt in hisec. Be it a mere pricechecker, up to Incursion runner or a full time miner. Another thing, not everyone in hisec deals with industry, and you highly underestimate the ability for people to adapt, especially newer players that haven't been too attached to certain aspects of the game yet.
So no, even if everyone "like you" left, CCP goes bankrupt is the least possible scenario that could happen.
CCP understimated how many would quit over aurum store and imposing IP usage fees on independent web masters and developers.
Those who are in hi sec are there because (for one reason or another) don't want or cannot "adapt". While you might have 100k players in null sec, 350k are in hi sec, just losing a little fraction, say 50k, would be around -10% revenue a year.
Let's see how CCP would take another drop, the last time they had to lay off 20% of their work force.
But hey, since spamming 1000000000000 photocopy nerf threads did not involve any CCP response, it obviously means that spamming one more WILL get CCP to reply! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4130
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 01:53:00 -
[128] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Plus, a reply with "You seriously overestimate your worth and the number of people "like you" shows an elitist attitude worth of the worst BoB. It seriously reminds me my country "radical chich" left-oid, sniffy politicians. It's not elitism, it's pointing out that the typical crybaby kneejerk response in these threads about unsubscribing is nothing more than a desperate attempt by a handful of people to hold onto game imbalance which benefits them.
They, like you, completely fail to see the big picture here, and instead of making reasonable replies they divert away from the topic with idiocy such as "hurf durf you're too lazy to make industry work in null" or "herp derp sov null is ubersafe, risk vs. reward lolz" or "highsec needs amazing industrial capacity because newbies need that industrial capacity since highsec ships blow up so much more than null" or "durrr nullsec = third world country and nobody manufactures there" and a whole host of other fallacies.
You're seriously arguing to preserve a system whereby even the best player effort, risk, and expenditure in player-owned space is still inferior to facilities that are risk-free, superior in number and capabilities, available from the start, and virtually free of charge, available in the safest area of the game.
That's like saying that a five-star $$$$ restaurant should serve you grilled-cheese sandwiches with canned and microwaved tomato soup while the local soup kitchen should always feature a four-course meal with wine pairings, filet mignon, asparagus, etc.
I don't think it's even possible to dumb this down even further, but some of you people are remarkeably still not getting it because you're so afraid of the combination of the words "nerf" and "highsec" you become completely incapable of rational and intelligent thought and instead revert to the mental equivalent of a toddler who won't share his toys.
Jesus Christ, people... Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 01:54:00 -
[129] - Quote
I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. |
Kelvan Hemanseh
Hole Exploitation Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 03:14:00 -
[130] - Quote
Yes. |
|
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 03:51:00 -
[131] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:[ Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist. How does that make the game better?
Keep sov null in its current state, everyone funds their account with PLEX in increasingly safe highsec (let's ignore the implication of this on PLEX prices just to keep this going for a while). Those like me get bored, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss as amazing fleet battles and tales of massive sov wars become a thing of the past. Without these epic tales no new blood is drawn into the game, the dull droning of mining lasers and mission agents in highsec is not enough to keep players engaged and subscribers drop that are not replaced by anyone new. EVE ceases to exist.
We can all play the ~touching my playstyle will kill eve~ card. Let's not.
Especially when the changes being suggested are not anywhere near the hyperbolic levels you have touted. You probably would be able to afford your PLEX, you just might have to work moderately harder at that. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4133
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 03:52:00 -
[132] - Quote
I really doubt most casual highsec players would even notice the difference, frankly.
They're just so gripped with terror at the idea of a nerf. Frankly I blame CCP for not nerfing high sec more often, otherwise they'd be used to it and wouldn't complain as much. Low and Null have had to content with various nerfs over the years, and the last major nerf to highsec that I can think of was to incursions, half of which was rolled back because people cried too much. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:04:00 -
[133] - Quote
To be fair I think that "rolled back because they cried too much" is a bit much since some of the incursion nerfs were kind of ridiculous (such as making it virtually impossible to lower sansha influence), and income of a group activity like that really should be a bit above their obvious competitor of highsec missioning.
Much like industry in a PVP zone should be a bit more lucrative than industry in a safe zone, even if it is made closer to the guaranteed safety of the safezone via, oh goodness, group activity. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:09:00 -
[134] - Quote
Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas.
Sugartits, if better ore, better ice, better pi, better rats, better bounties, better drops and moon goo hasn't done it do you really think better industry will do it?
Fact is when your alliance overlords can kick you out at a moment's notice or a massive enemy fleet shows up destroying everything you've invested in your production infrastructure, no amount of better is going to make it moar better than hisec.
Besides, the only way to allow for the scale of production that occurs in hisec but in nullsec is to turn nullsec into hisec and hisec into nullsec because there's no way you're going to move that much material through without losing significant percentages of it first. HTFU!...for the children! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4133
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:14:00 -
[135] - Quote
In fact, chances are a nerf to highsec industrial capacity sufficient enough to cause nullsec industrial alts to do their production closer to home would probably free up a lot more industrial slots than are currently available. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Zircon Dasher
141
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:16:00 -
[136] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote: Fact is when your alliance overlords can kick you out at a moment's notice destroying everything you've invested in your production infrastructure, no amount of better is going to make it moar better than hisec.
Maybe if you were not useless to the alliance 'overlords' they wouldn't kick you out. What if that changed? Would it be worth it then? |
Dark Reignz
Four-Q
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:22:00 -
[137] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Plus, a reply with "You seriously overestimate your worth and the number of people "like you" shows an elitist attitude worth of the worst BoB. It seriously reminds me my country "radical chich" left-oid, sniffy politicians. It's not elitism, it's pointing out that the typical crybaby kneejerk response in these threads about unsubscribing is nothing more than a desperate attempt by a handful of people to hold onto game imbalance which benefits them. They, like you, completely fail to see the big picture here, and instead of making reasonable replies they divert away from the topic with idiocy such as "hurf durf you're too lazy to make industry work in null" or "herp derp sov null is ubersafe, risk vs. reward lolz" or "highsec needs amazing industrial capacity because newbies need that industrial capacity since highsec ships blow up so much more than null" or "durrr nullsec = third world country and nobody manufactures there" and a whole host of other fallacies. You're seriously arguing to preserve a system whereby even facilities gained using the best player effort, risk, and expenditure in player-owned space is still inferior to facilities that are risk-free, superior in number and capabilities, available from the start, and virtually free of charge, available in the safest area of the game. That's like saying that a five-star $$$$ restaurant should serve you grilled-cheese sandwiches with canned and microwaved tomato soup while the local soup kitchen should always feature a four-course meal with wine pairings, filet mignon, asparagus, etc. Free of charge of course, with no dress code. I don't think it's even possible to dumb this down even further, but some of you people are remarkeably still not getting it because you're so afraid of the combination of the words "nerf" and "highsec" you become completely incapable of rational and intelligent thought and instead revert to the mental equivalent of a toddler who won't share his toys. Jesus Christ, people...
What is desperate, is the endless tears from nullbears who want hi sec slain. Your post is pretty much typical. I will add again that you nullbears need to look at the MAP / Activity .... those bright lights in Hi Sec, a true representation of "where its at" will die if you get your sad greedy ways and by that, I mean, as other have said. Mass Quitters.
Drop it please, thanx, much appreciated! |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:22:00 -
[138] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Mr Kidd wrote: Fact is when your alliance overlords can kick you out at a moment's notice destroying everything you've invested in your production infrastructure, no amount of better is going to make it moar better than hisec. Maybe if you were not useless to the alliance 'overlords' they wouldn't kick you out. What if that changed? Would it be worth it then?
You replied while I was editing and amending. I doubt the changes will affect your opinion. So, I will say that I don't live in null. There's a reason for that. Primarily it has to do with people telling me how I should play the game in order to be useful to them so they don't kick me out of "their" space. I get enough of that BS at work. Last I checked, Eve was a game, not a job and I will cowtow to noone.
That you nullbears want to make nullsec into hisec having your cake and eating it too is just sad and pathetic. You want mass scale industry go to hisec. You want everything else, take your pick, null, ls or w-space. HTFU!...for the children! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:33:00 -
[139] - Quote
Dark Reignz wrote:What is desperate, is the endless tears from nullbears who want hi sec slain. Your post is pretty much typical. I will add again that you nullbears need to look at the MAP / Activity .... those bright lights in Hi Sec, a true representation of "where its at" will die if you get your sad greedy ways and by that, I mean, as other have said. Mass Quitters.
Drop it please, thanx, much appreciated! It is a good day to die.
It is also a good day to be protected by CONCORD. Choose CONCORD, choose not-explosions. I am a nullsec zealot. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4133
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:37:00 -
[140] - Quote
Dark Reignz wrote:What is desperate, is the endless tears from nullbears who want hi sec slain. Your post is pretty much typical. I will add again that you nullbears need to look at the MAP / Activity .... those bright lights in Hi Sec, a true representation of "where its at" will die if you get your sad greedy ways and by that, I mean, as other have said. Mass Quitters.
Drop it please, thanx, much appreciated! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
|
Theangryhobo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:40:00 -
[141] - Quote
I think your signature is much better from yesterdays, if I do say so myself, Alvaria.
I don't think I've ever been called a nullbear before, but I take offense to that. Those bright lights in highsec are made by those who think EVE is meant to cater to you, because they have yet to learn the cold, hard truth those of us down here have, that EVE will grind you up and spit you out with no remorse, unless you actually work for what you get. . |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
The Pilots Who Say Ni
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:58:00 -
[142] - Quote
I honestly believe it's a no brainer that nullsec industry should be better then hisec industry. Not just marginally better.... I mean "better."
Although I don't mind the current state of Eve Online right now, I feel it could be much improved if this change was to take place. Take a look for yourself and take a roam from High to low, then onto null sec. There is a much higher ratio of pilots who prefer to spend 24/7 in high sec without ever even thinking about venturing into low or null sec!
I think for those 24/7 high sec players, if they wish to stay their... let them. But please keep in mind; "More isk = more risk!" Currently, I feel this isn't the case because of how reliable hi-sec space industry is.
I think it depends how CCP wants their game to be played out;
- Do they want more activity in nullsec? Not just a group of Alliances who have Blued each other and suddenly everything is peaceful and fine. Or, would they prefer to have different Alliances and Corporations going to war for control over a particular Mineral/Gas?
Sorry, I'm still a 2 month old noob. But just my opinion anyways.
It's just common sense tell me that industry should be greater for High, Low and Null sec respectively.
It would be great to see this change implemeted and see how New Eden would change over time. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1083
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 05:03:00 -
[143] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
I say make nullsec industry match highsec industry, not the other way around.
EvE Forum Bingo |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4134
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 05:09:00 -
[144] - Quote
Nobody is saying to make highsec industry match nullsec industry as it currently is. THAT would be even more ******** than what we currently have. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2345
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 05:38:00 -
[145] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed.
The problem is not with the mechanics. It's with the people who choose to live there. They are just not the type that want to settle in and actually set up an industrial base. They want to shoot stuff.
If they insist on whining that it is somehow easier in high sec then they should move there and stop flooding the forum with tears. For a bunch of elite PVP Gods, they sure spend a lot of time crying over having to make something of themselves in the area of the game that does nothing to hold their hands.
Null is what you make it guys. If you can't make it, then move back to high sec and stop your bellyaching.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 05:40:00 -
[146] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Nobody is saying to make highsec industry match nullsec industry as it currently is. THAT would be even more ******** than what we currently have. Yeah, highsec is well-developed and well-patrolled by CONCORD, something like that is impossible. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7981
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 07:01:00 -
[147] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:baltec1 wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote: A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0
That doesn't sound broken to you?
Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it. Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at. VFK sees more traffic and trade than most high sec systems. 50th percentile, maybe. Even a total backwater of highsec like Derelik has plenty of systems with multiple times the activity, and a couple that might match the activity levels of Deklein as a whole. I'm just not seeing where nullsec has a large enough market to justify much more than shipping a tiny portion of highsec's production out there. If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works.
Perhaps that might be something to do with the fact that so many "0.0 players" actually keep more characters in hi-sec than they do in their own space? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7981
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 07:02:00 -
[148] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed.
No it doesn't.
There.
Aren't.
The.
Slots.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3496
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 07:16:00 -
[149] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed. No it doesn't.There. Aren't. The. Slots. General Discussion sure reaches its potential for ******** arguments. In fact I think it's growing in terms of ability to be ********. Like, literally, you're retarding the progress of EVE Online by such displays of stupidity. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 07:58:00 -
[150] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: It's not elitism, it's pointing out that the typical crybaby kneejerk response in these threads about unsubscribing is nothing more than a desperate attempt by a handful of people to hold onto game imbalance which benefits them.
The only handful is here, is some dozens of bored industrialists who (in another thread) found making 8B a month is too little and the same dozen of super-rich mega dominating large null sec alliance talking heads pretending their life is so bad and ugly.
Were they the perma-forgotten low sec players, they'd have credibility to back their sobbings. Where they NPC null sec players, the deadly risk they run every day would appear an appropriate prize.
But no, those who cry are the second most spoiled brats after hi seccers. I mean, only hi seccers are worse!
James Amril-Kesh wrote: They, like you,
You speak to the guy who proposed to remove hi sec completely except for the starter systems. So keep the "you" for your own sermons. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:03:00 -
[151] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: General Discussion sure reaches its potential for ******** arguments. In fact I think it's growing in terms of ability to be ********. Like, literally, you're retarding the progress of EVE Online by such displays of stupidity.
If you don't like GD, then stop posting and reading it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:16:00 -
[152] - Quote
Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas.
Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov.
But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
5500
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed. The problem is not with the mechanics. It's with the people who choose to live there. They are just not the type that want to settle in and actually set up an industrial base. They want to shoot stuff. If they insist on whining that it is somehow easier in high sec then they should move there and stop flooding the forum with tears. For a bunch of elite PVP Gods, they sure spend a lot of time crying over having to make something of themselves in the area of the game that does nothing to hold their hands. Null is what you make it guys. If you can't make it, then move back to high sec and stop your bellyaching. Mr Epeen
It is currently impossible to make null sec industry competable with high sec. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5500
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:30:00 -
[154] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov. But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking.
The moons are all taken as are the POCOs. Just about all carriers and dreads are built in low. For normal subcap and module construction however there are no reasons to build them in low sec over high sec. If there are no advantages to building these things in low sec then why take the added risk. |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
628
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:30:00 -
[155] - Quote
Not just in null sec but all non high sec space (null, low and wormholes) should have an advantage over high sec industry.
Industrialists should be encouraged to take their operations out of high sec where they should potentially be able to get a better retire for there time than they would in HS. Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
290
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 09:17:00 -
[156] - Quote
When you say EQUAL, are you taking into account all factors? Because of logistics and access to market, which ARE key components of industry, equalizing nullsec industry with highsec is only doable via penalizing other features of highsec industry. Tradeoffs. More mineral waste in highsec, in exchange for direct access to good markets, etc. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
200
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 09:23:00 -
[157] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed. No it doesn't.There. Aren't. The. Slots.
^ What Malcanis said. We have our share of disagreements, but I absolutely 100% agree with him when he states that null sec industry isn't what it should be - and it's not just a question of the number of slots. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1033
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 09:46:00 -
[158] - Quote
In my opinion, and what I understand as part of the spirit of 0.0, the null-sec industry shouldn't simply be boosted, but the alliances should get the tools (toys) made available to shape null-sec the way they desire it. And it should come with options, choices, consequences, advantages and curtailments. Like ship fitting. It should have a resource and you should have to decide where to put it for your best advantage.
I am playing around with the concept of population as the base resource, deadspace areas as system slots, types of deadspace colonies as sub-systems and colony enhancements as modules. I think it would be better and more enjoyable than a bland grind based mechanic. May take a while until I have something more substantial put together that I can post up for discussion and development. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Rico Minali
The Straw Men Dark Therapy
1257
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:08:00 -
[159] - Quote
I think marginally better, not alot but a little better to reflect the increased risk. Anyone who talks about nullsec being safe simply doesnt know enough to use that argument.
It should only be marginal though so that hisec players are still getting a good deal with it. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4721
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:17:00 -
[160] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:I think marginally better, not alot but a little better to reflect the increased risk. Anyone who talks about nullsec being safe simply doesnt know enough to use that argument.
It should only be marginal though so that hisec players are still getting a good deal with it. The advantage should either be configurable or simply different in different areas of space. I think we have seen a pure tier system being lackluster in every area of the game it has been used. It's simply better and more interesting to try to give good reasons to use all the options available for something important, then it is to offer a tiered system where some options are clearly inferior or superior in all cases excluding some minor niches. |
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1743
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:26:00 -
[161] - Quote
I find it very telling about the mindsets of people playing this game when the question "Should Null sec Industry be as good as high sec" is asked
It really speaks of deep problems in the game that the question even needs to be asked, and even then the fact that it was not just a "How much better than Hi-sec should it be?"
It does speak of a cancer in this game where people are punished for risk, punished for capital investment and lets face it just punished because they do not want to sit in Hi-sec making no better money than anyone else with the base skills.
Now EvE is far from dying but the biggest question is, is it changing into something that will kill us all of boredom? Even mining in Hi-sec can get boring after time and missions are boring from the time you press accept.
EvE has always been about people striking out into space whether that be Sov space, NPC, lo-sec,Worm holes and so very much more.
But now things are changing and it has gotten to the point that people even have to ask the question of whether risk=reward or whether reward should be directly opposite the risks taken.
It is a very sad state of affairs
And don't get me started on the CSM voting system (well more like a torture system) oops to late I already started. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
|
Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:33:00 -
[162] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I find it very telling about the mindsets of people playing this game when the question "Should Null sec Industry be as good as high sec" is asked It really speaks of deep problems in the game that the question even needs to be asked, and even then the fact that it was not just a "How much better than Hi-sec should it be?" It does speak of a cancer in this game where people are punished for risk, punished for capital investment and lets face it just punished because they do not want to sit in Hi-sec making no better money than anyone else with the base skills. Now EvE is far from dying but the biggest question is, is it changing into something that will kill us all of boredom? Even mining in Hi-sec can get boring after time and missions are boring from the time you press accept. EvE has always been about people striking out into space whether that be Sov space, NPC, lo-sec,Worm holes and so very much more. But now things are changing and it has gotten to the point that people even have to ask the question of whether risk=reward or whether reward should be directly opposite the risks taken. It is a very sad state of affairs And don't get me started on the CSM voting system (well more like a torture system) oops to late I already started. tl;dr don't nerf high sec or see eve die?
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baltec1
Bat Country
5502
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:37:00 -
[163] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote: tl;dr don't nerf high sec or see eve die?
The opposite |
Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
oops, but he did support Issler
Issler |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1743
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:41:00 -
[165] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:oops, but he did support Issler
Issler Ok so while issler was in CSM 7 we got the mining barge buff.
who did you vote for and what did they achieve? Unless the answer is Two step or Hans then you are screwed. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1743
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:42:00 -
[166] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I find it very telling about the mindsets of people playing this game when the question "Should Null sec Industry be as good as high sec" is asked It really speaks of deep problems in the game that the question even needs to be asked, and even then the fact that it was not just a "How much better than Hi-sec should it be?" It does speak of a cancer in this game where people are punished for risk, punished for capital investment and lets face it just punished because they do not want to sit in Hi-sec making no better money than anyone else with the base skills. Now EvE is far from dying but the biggest question is, is it changing into something that will kill us all of boredom? Even mining in Hi-sec can get boring after time and missions are boring from the time you press accept. EvE has always been about people striking out into space whether that be Sov space, NPC, lo-sec,Worm holes and so very much more. But now things are changing and it has gotten to the point that people even have to ask the question of whether risk=reward or whether reward should be directly opposite the risks taken. It is a very sad state of affairs And don't get me started on the CSM voting system (well more like a torture system) oops to late I already started. tl;dr don't nerf high sec or see eve die? I just noticed this one
You really should read more of the forums before you open your mouth or even the post you tl;dr. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:44:00 -
[167] - Quote
Dark Reignz wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dark Reignz wrote:Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.
Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.
Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.
There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.
How about that ?
No ?
Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0 That doesn't sound broken to you? Lookidat map - active users in the last 30 mins : http://oi46.tinypic.com/2r5dtvb.jpgIn a word....... NO Edit: On the flip side, and coincidentally, there are more people in one Caldari high sec system than there are in MOST OF null sec brah.
And you don't see why this is an issue? Really?
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Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:45:00 -
[168] - Quote
looking forward to your campaign this year for issler |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1743
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:48:00 -
[169] - Quote
removed EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1743
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:51:00 -
[170] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:looking forward to your campaign this year for issler Yes completely. I am so glad you keep up with current events in EvE and that you can hassle someone who did vote when you cannot even name who you voted for
Oh and Trebor is the only CSM 7 member running in the CSM 8 election. EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7984
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:51:00 -
[171] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov. But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking.
Gosh, it's almost as if having CONCORD to provide free deterrence 24/7 is actually a very significant subsidy to hi-sec industry that will have to be taken into account when the much needed rebalance takes place.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7984
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:56:00 -
[172] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:looking forward to your campaign this year for issler Yes completely. I am so glad you keep up with current events in EvE and that you can hassle someone who did vote when you cannot even name who you voted for Oh and Trebor is the only CSM 7 member running in the CSM 8 election.
Speaking of which, is your sig some kind of ironic reverse troll or something? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1194
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:58:00 -
[173] - Quote
The main thing I'd suggest for highsec changes for industry:
Adjust times, not costs.
Adjusting costs means that someone just starting out in highsec may be priced out of the market completely.
Adjusting times means that they can still make a reasonable margin on invested isk. It's just over a longer period, dropping the isk/hr
I /think/ this avoids Malcanis's Law. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 11:00:00 -
[174] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Sugartits, if better ore, better ice, better pi, better rats, better bounties, better drops and moon goo hasn't done it do you really think better industry will do it? I can't speak for everyone in the game, but you know, a lot of people in the game come home from a job where their boss tells them what to do, when to do it and how to do it. Maybe, just maybe they don't want to play a game where they have to put up with the same BS? Fact is when your alliance overlords can kick you out at a moment's notice or a massive enemy fleet shows up destroying everything you've invested in your production infrastructure, no amount of better is going to make it moar better than hisec. Besides, the only way to allow for the scale of production that occurs in hisec but in nullsec is to turn nullsec into hisec and hisec into nullsec because there's no way you're going to move that much material through without losing significant percentages of it first. Then you'll be whining about the non-stop ganks and how ccp needs to make nullsec safer.....oh damn, where have I heard this before?
This is your view. There will be plenty of industrialists, that when they see a new opportunity to make isk, will take it. It's them that this change would help. I was a Hi-seccer for a bloody long time. In fact, probably about 4 years of active time. I stayed there because I was scared of Null, and I had little incentive to leave high. Now I have, best thing I've done. People just need a bit of a push and hopefully they'll realise there's more to EVE than Jita |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1744
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 11:04:00 -
[175] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:looking forward to your campaign this year for issler Yes completely. I am so glad you keep up with current events in EvE and that you can hassle someone who did vote when you cannot even name who you voted for Oh and Trebor is the only CSM 7 member running in the CSM 8 election. Speaking of which, is your sig some kind of ironic reverse troll or something? Sort of ironic. A protest at CCP over their stupid voting system and so far lack of player education and the clock is really ticking now. People will ignore ads that appear just for a short period. If this discussion and so many like it have taught us anything it is that ideas need to be repeated time and again before they sink in.
I changed it and haven't thought of a good one yet.
Thinking something along the lines of
"CSM7 was the year of the CCP butt kissers, Don't let it happen again. Vote" Followed by a list of candidates in an appropriate order.
or Maybe
"We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence" "CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault" EvE players have no voice. Just don't bother voting for the CSM, really its not worth the energy.
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Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 11:11:00 -
[176] - Quote
I voted for the emperor of space, my dear supreme leader, and learned that a grown man can be bullied in a computer game. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 11:51:00 -
[177] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Ok so while issler was in CSM 7 we got the mining barge buff.
If there was any one change that purely encouraged the "**** it, just stay in highsec forever" mentality, it was the barge buff. At best, anyone who supports the buff they got is as FYGM as it gets, and at worst they're dumber than mud. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 13:35:00 -
[178] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov. But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking. Gosh, it's almost as if having CONCORD to provide free deterrence 24/7 is actually a very significant subsidy to hi-sec industry that will have to be taken into account when the much needed rebalance takes place.
Good to see you commenting apples with oranges.
I have yet to see *one*, just *one* sov null seccer calling for a rebalance involving the most needing regions first (low sec and NPC null sec and then WHs, all riskier choices) before applying a further improvement to their area. Why? Because they won't look beyond their only and one turf. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 13:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov. But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking. Gosh, it's almost as if having CONCORD to provide free deterrence 24/7 is actually a very significant subsidy to hi-sec industry that will have to be taken into account when the much needed rebalance takes place. Good to see you commenting apples with oranges. I have yet to see *one*, just *one* sov null seccer calling for a rebalance involving the most needing regions first (low sec and NPC null sec) before applying a further improvement to their area. Why? Because they won't look beyond their only and one turf.
Actually, you have. What I suggested would help all areas outside of trade hubs. Probably most benefiting Hi sec, followed by low. Admittedly, it might not help NPC null as much as Sov, but it would help. Highsec should pay for protection in the form of taxes on the buying and selling of items, at higher rates depending on the sec status.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7984
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 13:51:00 -
[180] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. Low sec comes with as many slots as high sec, as many stations. It even got harvestable moons (some good ones) and high ends in some systems. As Baltec1 said for the similar NPC nullsec players with the usual sniffy remark: "Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it." so basing to his statement, those low sec players have no excuse due to their inability to claim sov. But guess what? Low sec is still an utter desert industry speaking. Gosh, it's almost as if having CONCORD to provide free deterrence 24/7 is actually a very significant subsidy to hi-sec industry that will have to be taken into account when the much needed rebalance takes place. Good to see you commenting apples with oranges. I have yet to see *one*, just *one* sov null seccer calling for a rebalance involving the most needing regions first (low sec and NPC null sec and then WHs, all riskier choices) before applying a further improvement to their area. Why? Because they won't look beyond their only and one turf.
Apples to Oranges? Apart from CONCORD, what's the difference between lo-sec and hi-sec so far as an industrialist is concerned? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:05:00 -
[181] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Actually, you have. What I suggested would help all areas outside of trade hubs. Probably most benefiting Hi sec, followed by low. Admittedly, it might not help NPC null as much as Sov, but it would help. Highsec should pay for protection in the form of taxes on the buying and selling of items, at higher rates depending on the sec status.
If there's to be a revolution of how EvE works it has to be well planned and all encompassing (the current model is all encompassing). As such if we really have to dumb down EvE enough to provide a predictable and canned reward = f(risk), then a priority has to be done about where risk is the highest and give the top buff in there.
Regardless whether hi sec has to be nerfed or not, in the end the reward = f(risk) profile should be:
hi sec (lowest) => sov sec => low sec => WH => NPC null sec, with some more thought about where to exactly place WHs in that scale.
Guess what, the huge majority of these photocopy nerf threads revolve the second least risk area inhabitants only thinking about themselves as some sort of "better than others", forget (or even screw) everybody else.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7985
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:07:00 -
[182] - Quote
You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:08:00 -
[183] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Actually, you have. What I suggested would help all areas outside of trade hubs. Probably most benefiting Hi sec, followed by low. Admittedly, it might not help NPC null as much as Sov, but it would help. Highsec should pay for protection in the form of taxes on the buying and selling of items, at higher rates depending on the sec status.
If there's to be a revolution of how EvE works it has to be well planned and all encompassing (the current model is all encompassing). As such if we really have to dumb down EvE enough to provide a predictable and canned reward = f(risk), then a priority has to be done about where risk is the highest and give the top buff in there. Regardless whether hi sec has to be nerfed or not, in the end the reward = f(risk) profile should be: hi sec (lowest) => sov sec => low sec => WH => NPC null sec, with some more thought about where to exactly place WHs in that scale. Guess what, the huge majority of these photocopy nerf threads revolve the second least risk area inhabitants only thinking about themselves as some sort of "better than others", forget (or even screw) everybody else. i am sorry Frying Doom, this here is the tl;dr don't nerf highsec or see eve die. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:08:00 -
[184] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Apples to Oranges? Apart from CONCORD, what's the difference between lo-sec and hi-sec so far as an industrialist is concerned? EDIT: Are you counting me as a nullseccer? If so, look at page 3 of this very thread: Malcanis wrote: It would be good if productive activities were viable in all zones. Ideally, each zone would be dominant in one speciality, and co-equal in the others. Eg: Hi-sec might become easily the best place for invention, but then 0.0 should be definitely superior for eg: T2 production, and so on.
So now you've seen one. What now?
It's not my fault I reply to certain people and you, uncalled, put yourself in the middle.
I was not considering you a null seccer, you are putting your nose in an arguments to them.
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:09:00 -
[185] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec.
Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:10:00 -
[186] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works.
Perhaps that might be something to do with the fact that so many "0.0 players" actually keep more characters in hi-sec than they do in their own space? Maybe because there just isn't enough to do in sovereign nullsec, even without industry entering the equation.
NPC space (high, low and null) offers a richer play experience across the board, without the headaches of structure grinding. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:11:00 -
[187] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:
i am sorry Frying Doom, this here is the tl;dr don't nerf highsec or see eve die.
Nah, I just don't share the "let's add more taxes, this will fix everything". I have to deal with this sh!t every day when I see socialist politicians talk in TV. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:12:00 -
[188] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Actually, you have. What I suggested would help all areas outside of trade hubs. Probably most benefiting Hi sec, followed by low. Admittedly, it might not help NPC null as much as Sov, but it would help. Highsec should pay for protection in the form of taxes on the buying and selling of items, at higher rates depending on the sec status.
If there's to be a revolution of how EvE works it has to be well planned and all encompassing (the current model is all encompassing). As such if we really have to dumb down EvE enough to provide a predictable and canned reward = f(risk), then a priority has to be done about where risk is the highest and give the top buff in there. Regardless whether hi sec has to be nerfed or not, in the end the reward = f(risk) profile should be: hi sec (lowest) => sov sec => low sec => WH => NPC null sec, with some more thought about where to exactly place WHs in that scale. Guess what, the huge majority of these photocopy nerf threads revolve the second least risk area inhabitants only thinking about themselves as some sort of "better than others", forget (or even screw) everybody else.
For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7985
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:14:00 -
[189] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say.
My Law concerns the effects of special privileges. And, indeed, the effects of the massive special privileges granted to hi-sec producers definitely provide a good example.
Oh but wait wait I'm forgetting that we have to reduce the effects of those privileges vvvveeerrrrryyy sssssllllloooowwwlllllyyyy or the beneficiaries of those privileges won't be able to maintain their status. What a catastrophe that would be.
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:14:00 -
[190] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:
i am sorry Frying Doom, this here is the tl;dr don't nerf highsec or see eve die.
Nah, I just don't share the "let's add more taxes, this will fix everything". I have to deal with this sh!t every day when I see socialist politicians talk in TV.
That statement has explained a lot. Ah well. Clearly taxes wont solve everything, but I think its a pretty simple way to start addressing the issue |
|
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1038
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:16:00 -
[191] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
Null industry has the potential to be as good as, or better, than high sec right now. No changes are needed. The problem is not with the mechanics. It's with the people who choose to live there. They are just not the type that want to settle in and actually set up an industrial base. They want to shoot stuff. If they insist on whining that it is somehow easier in high sec then they should move there and stop flooding the forum with tears. For a bunch of elite PVP Gods, they sure spend a lot of time crying over having to make something of themselves in the area of the game that does nothing to hold their hands. Null is what you make it guys. If you can't make it, then move back to high sec and stop your bellyaching. Mr Epeen It is currently impossible to make null sec industry competable with high sec.
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec. HTFU!...for the children! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:17:00 -
[192] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works.
Perhaps that might be something to do with the fact that so many "0.0 players" actually keep more characters in hi-sec than they do in their own space? Maybe because there just isn't enough to do in sovereign nullsec, even without industry entering the equation. NPC space (high, low and null) offers a richer play experience across the board, without the headaches of structure grinding.
It's too hard to do 1 + 1.
When I lived in null sec I had my hi sec alts including a perfectly identical pilot to this character. Why? Because industry argument is irrelevant, in the end when you want to just log in and do "something" and there are no particular corp FCs online (most of the day till prime time) then one might want to just play without all the encumberance of having to scout, having to permanently stay on voice comm (listening to TV or music is good), having to find 4-5 people just to leave the station and move around. Then hi sec is the perfect place to d!ck around before "serious business" starts in the corp. That's why I and many others have hi sec alts, to have a "slack" version of their gameplay to relax from the important internet spaceships business due at 8pm. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1194
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:18:00 -
[193] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec.
Differently secure. There are elements which are higher security.
At least in part.
Sure, you can be freely attacked in null.
But your attackers can't idle around with Concord protection, to get everyone in place. You can have security on a mining operation that isn't just there for mop up. (can is the important word, really)
And neuts being rare (as in, not normal) in sov null means you have an immediate reason to POS up. rather than wondering if it's a ganker or just someone passing through.
You're right that it takes a huge investment of time to secure though. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1194
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:20:00 -
[194] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:
i am sorry Frying Doom, this here is the tl;dr don't nerf highsec or see eve die.
Nah, I just don't share the "let's add more taxes, this will fix everything". I have to deal with this sh!t every day when I see socialist politicians talk in TV. That statement has explained a lot. Ah well. Clearly taxes wont solve everything, but I think its a pretty simple way to start addressing the issue
It also has the added benefit of stripping some isk from the game. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:20:00 -
[195] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward.
If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:21:00 -
[196] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works.
Perhaps that might be something to do with the fact that so many "0.0 players" actually keep more characters in hi-sec than they do in their own space? Maybe because there just isn't enough to do in sovereign nullsec, even without industry entering the equation. NPC space (high, low and null) offers a richer play experience across the board, without the headaches of structure grinding. It's too hard to do 1 + 1. When I lived in null sec I had my hi sec alts including a perfectly identical pilot to this character. Why? Because industry argument is irrelevant, in the end when you want to just log in and do "something" and there are no particular corp FCs online (most of the day till prime time) then one might want to just play without all the encumberance of having to scout, having to permanently stay on voice comm (listening to TV or music is good), having to find 4-5 people just to leave the station and move around. Then hi sec is the perfect place to d!ck around before "serious business" starts in the corp. That's why I and many others have hi sec alts, to have a "slack" version of their gameplay to relax from the important internet spaceships business due at 8pm.
Yeah, nothing wrong with that. The point is, it should be worthwhile trying to sort out getting those 4-5 people together. At present, it's a massive ball drag for minimal benefit. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:22:00 -
[197] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say.
My Law concerns the effects of special privileges. And, indeed, the effects of the massive special privileges granted to hi-sec producers definitely provide a good example. Oh but wait wait I'm forgetting that we have to reduce the effects of those privileges vvvveeerrrrryyy sssssllllloooowwwlllllyyyy or the beneficiaries of those privileges won't be able to maintain their status. What a catastrophe that would be.
No, your are forgetting the corollary to your own law: that nerfing something to hurt the "vets" is going to massively impair the new players.
What once you i.e. reduce hi sec refinery down to null sec value? Guess what, those old enough won't give a crap, they have skills and implants, the weaker players get the bone. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7985
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:24:00 -
[198] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive.
That's a familiar concept from somewhere.... Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:24:00 -
[199] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive.
TBF mate, you've gone a long way to redeem yourself in my eyes with that. From the discussion so far I had come to the (apparently false) conclusion that you were just a dont touch my hisec bear. Would you like to expand on how a 1.0 system might be different to a 0.7 system? I agree with you, that Hi sec is indeed a flawed stepping stone, it's just I want people who do decide to jump off to not feel like they need to climb back onto it. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7985
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:25:00 -
[200] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say.
My Law concerns the effects of special privileges. And, indeed, the effects of the massive special privileges granted to hi-sec producers definitely provide a good example. Oh but wait wait I'm forgetting that we have to reduce the effects of those privileges vvvveeerrrrryyy sssssllllloooowwwlllllyyyy or the beneficiaries of those privileges won't be able to maintain their status. What a catastrophe that would be. No, your are forgetting the corollary to your own law: that nerfing something to hurt the "vets" is going to massively impair the new players. What once you i.e. reduce hi sec refinery down to null sec value? Guess what, those old enough won't give a crap, they have skills and implants, the weaker players get the bone.
So it's fine for weaker players in 0.0 to "get the bone", because it's only a problem when that happens in hi-sec? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:26:00 -
[201] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: Yeah, nothing wrong with that. The point is, it should be worthwhile trying to sort out getting those 4-5 people together. At present, it's a massive ball drag for minimal benefit.
It was totally worthwhile... if I'd been in a PvP roam mood. Most of those who go in null sec go there for the PvP, it's easy to convince them to get out for a roam but what if quite often I just had 20 minutes or wanted to do something in freedom without having to get involved in voice comms and whatsnot?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:27:00 -
[202] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: If the market grows to the point where the jump freighter pilots have trouble keeping up, then nullsec might need a buff to industry, but I just really don't see that happening without the addition of a lot of scalable content to nullsec that doesn't seem to be in the works.
Perhaps that might be something to do with the fact that so many "0.0 players" actually keep more characters in hi-sec than they do in their own space? Maybe because there just isn't enough to do in sovereign nullsec, even without industry entering the equation. NPC space (high, low and null) offers a richer play experience across the board, without the headaches of structure grinding. It's too hard to do 1 + 1. When I lived in null sec I had my hi sec alts including a perfectly identical pilot to this character. Why? Because industry argument is irrelevant, in the end when you want to just log in and do "something" and there are no particular corp FCs online (most of the day till prime time) then one might want to just play without all the encumberance of having to scout, having to permanently stay on voice comm (listening to TV or music is good), having to find 4-5 people just to leave the station and move around. Then hi sec is the perfect place to d!ck around before "serious business" starts in the corp. That's why I and many others have hi sec alts, to have a "slack" version of their gameplay to relax from the important internet spaceships business due at 8pm. A fairly typical arrangement, from what I've seen of serious players.
Nullsec is the high-end battleground. Very few people actually live there, and the ones that try end up burning out on the limited content pretty quickly.
There are exceptions, of course, but I've seen too many people try to go all-out into sov null, burn out after about 6 months, and simply leave the game completely at that point.
There's something wrong there, and I don't think that having to ship goods in from highsec trade hubs is even on the same continent as where the real problems lie. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:29:00 -
[203] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: I just noticed this one
You really should read more of the forums before you open your mouth or even the post you tl;dr.
Wow, something terrible must of happened while I was away to have Frying Doom calling out a bad poster. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:31:00 -
[204] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive. That's a familiar concept from somewhere....
Now compare it with the "nerf hi sec, buff (we only care for) sov null sec" threads and draw a comparison with yours. Yours and mine are a whole systematic approach, not the same stuff you find in GD. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:33:00 -
[205] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say.
My Law concerns the effects of special privileges. And, indeed, the effects of the massive special privileges granted to hi-sec producers definitely provide a good example. Oh but wait wait I'm forgetting that we have to reduce the effects of those privileges vvvveeerrrrryyy sssssllllloooowwwlllllyyyy or the beneficiaries of those privileges won't be able to maintain their status. What a catastrophe that would be. No, your are forgetting the corollary to your own law: that nerfing something to hurt the "vets" is going to massively impair the new players. What once you i.e. reduce hi sec refinery down to null sec value? Guess what, those old enough won't give a crap, they have skills and implants, the weaker players get the bone. So it's fine for weaker players in 0.0 to "get the bone", because it's only a problem when that happens in hi-sec?
I did not see a single attempt to request new 0.0 players improvements, only lots of attempts to request hi sec nerfs. That's also part of why I don't see these threads as anything but an one side attempt to grab more wealth for the specific subset of established, sov only players. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:34:00 -
[206] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive. That's a familiar concept from somewhere.... Now compare it with the "nerf hi sec, buff (we only care for) sov null sec" threads and draw a comparison with yours. Yours and mine are a whole systematic approach, not the same stuff you find in GD.
And compare what you propose, Malcanis proposed, and what I have proposed, and they are all along a similar line. We all think people need a push from Hi sec or that hi sec needs to shrink. Surely this means, that there is something inherently wrong with hi sec |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:37:00 -
[207] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it.
False: Building the empire is a cost, those POS/TCU/POCO/system upgrades/outposts/sov/SBU bills don't come free as a "reward." I would think as an alleged former nullsec person you would know this and instead of trying to mislead people here by leaving out that key point, you would find a decent argument that supports your cause of keeping highsec the best. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:39:00 -
[208] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive. TBF mate, you've gone a long way to redeem yourself in my eyes with that. From the discussion so far I had come to the (apparently false) conclusion that you were just a dont touch my hisec bear. Would you like to expand on how a 1.0 system might be different to a 0.7 system? I agree with you, that Hi sec is indeed a flawed stepping stone, it's just I want people who do decide to jump off to not feel like they need to climb back onto it.
Just for a starter I proposed to remove the current awful scanner and replace it with a more modern radar. That thing (and local) would provide less and less information the lowest in security you go. Human players lock times would be higher on higher sec as well, possibly with active defense like "lock breaker" mods to click before the other player got a solid lock on you. Capitals and bubbles would still be limited to lowest sec areas, supercaps only in 0.1 downwards.
Player owned stations and POSes would be available at every sec, with increasing kinds of activities and efficiency and slots enabled as you go lower in sec (a bit like now, where you can't react in hi sec etc.).
The ways are possible, I have played so many PvP games in a decade, some of them dealt with "full PvP" without all the aerobatics EvE goes through to keep an artificial safe zone. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
1268
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:41:00 -
[209] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?
It's a risk reward thing. Currently there is significantly more risk being an Indy pilot in 0.0 than there is in highsec... which is where you would expect the rewards to be better in 0.0.. Except they not. It's actually worse. Quite a lot worse.
If you offset the cost of loosing ships, Industry should be AT LEAST as rewarding and effective as highsec. At the moment, it's no where near. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:43:00 -
[210] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I did not see a single attempt to request new 0.0 players improvements, only lots of attempts to request hi sec nerfs. That's also part of why I don't see these threads as anything but an one side attempt to grab more wealth for the specific subset of established, sov only players.
That's because we provide our own content and "new player experience." While it would be a good idea we haven't needed it as of yet. An actual player showing the newbee how to move their ship and explaining things to them works far better than the career missions. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
|
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: For a start point then, what do you think of the changes I have suggested? I've always said, it isn't just about "nerfing" high sec. The current way it is makes no sense. The income that market traders make is obscene. There is no risk in hi sec, and whatever you say, sov null is still a lot more risk, and needs a lot more effort than it too. There is simply no reason to not stay in high. This is a problem. CCP did not give us this great sandbox for us to not use all of the space available. Not 4 systems in high sec.
What I think? That hi sec is a flawed stepping stone and the whole game is adversely affected by it, and it should be removed and replaced with a smooth degree of risky-ness. From full hi sec enforced only on new players starting systems down to -1.0 with a series of gradual changes, so everybody can actively pick their "grade" of risk vs reward. If we have to alter the whole game, we may as well change it for the better, and not just flip the current "compartiments" around, which still keeps the awful compartiments philosophy alive. TBF mate, you've gone a long way to redeem yourself in my eyes with that. From the discussion so far I had come to the (apparently false) conclusion that you were just a dont touch my hisec bear. Would you like to expand on how a 1.0 system might be different to a 0.7 system? I agree with you, that Hi sec is indeed a flawed stepping stone, it's just I want people who do decide to jump off to not feel like they need to climb back onto it. Just for a starter I proposed to remove the current awful scanner and replace it with a more modern radar. That thing (and local) would provide less and less information the lowest in security you go. Human players lock times would be higher on higher sec as well, possibly with active defense like "lock breaker" mods to click before the other player got a solid lock on you. Capitals and bubbles would still be limited to lowest sec areas, supercaps only in 0.1 downwards. Player owned stations and POSes would be available at every sec, with increasing kinds of activities and efficiency and slots enabled as you go lower in sec (a bit like now, where you can't react in hi sec etc.). The ways are possible, I have played so many PvP games in a decade, some of them dealt with "full PvP" without all the aerobatics EvE goes through to keep an artificial safe zone.
I dunno about this, partcularly from a lore POV. I can't come up with reasons why, but I don't really like most of these changes. Seems like what you want is more like a different game altogether. I'll think a little more though. After all, its change, and Change, is not good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLDmlY9yJZo |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:46:00 -
[212] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. False: Building the empire is a cost, those POS/TCU/POCO/system upgrades/outposts/sov/SBU bills don't come free as a "reward." I would think as an alleged former nullsec person you would know this and instead of trying to mislead people here by leaving out that key point, you would find a decent argument that supports your cause of keeping highsec the best.
Every single, every single PvP MMO I have played had conquerable castles, keeps, stations and whatsnot where the only reward was being able to show your flag and tabard, sometimes getting a 5% buff at what gold NPCs dropped as loot and similar trifles. We had to pay tons of money a day as "upkeeping", keep 24/7 guard at our conquests because there were like 20 available structures to fight for between the whole player base and all wanted to capture your stuff.
Seriously, if you don't feel like you have achieved a reward for holding what you conquered, you are playing a clerk game where all you are in for, is the union contracted base wage.
Even the worst BoB took pride for their conquests as "per se" e-peen display. You new(er)comers seem only interested at some pathetic paid fee for a job you were not even really after. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1038
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:47:00 -
[213] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And frankly, if you can't see the ripple effects of your own law applied to the game modifications being demanded, I have nothing else to say.
My Law concerns the effects of special privileges. And, indeed, the effects of the massive special privileges granted to hi-sec producers definitely provide a good example. Oh but wait wait I'm forgetting that we have to reduce the effects of those privileges vvvveeerrrrryyy sssssllllloooowwwlllllyyyy or the beneficiaries of those privileges won't be able to maintain their status. What a catastrophe that would be. No, your are forgetting the corollary to your own law: that nerfing something to hurt the "vets" is going to massively impair the new players. What once you i.e. reduce hi sec refinery down to null sec value? Guess what, those old enough won't give a crap, they have skills and implants, the weaker players get the bone. So it's fine for weaker players in 0.0 to "get the bone", because it's only a problem when that happens in hi-sec? I did not see a single attempt to request new 0.0 players improvements, only lots of attempts to request hi sec nerfs. That's also part of why I don't see these threads as anything but an one side attempt to grab more wealth for the specific subset of established, sov only players.
The reason is that for what is being asked, "better industry in nullsec", would either require that nullsec have safe travel with concord, lots more stations with NPC production facilities, of which the player base can already build with POS's but don't want that kind of investment/liability, or turn Hisec into a wasteland where there is no game.
The fact is null can already have the production they're whining about. They just don't want to invest the time and effort that it takes in that kind of environment. They want a hisec wonderland in their nullsec.
This argument is a moot point because the problems nullsec bears are whining about are the exact factors that make nullsec nullsec and not hisec.
HTFU!...for the children! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3905
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:49:00 -
[214] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:I dunno about this, partcularly from a lore POV. I can't come up with reasons why, but I don't really like most of these changes. Seems like what you want is more like a different game altogether. I'll think a little more though. After all, its change, and Change, is not good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLDmlY9yJZo
I understand most won't like what I'd like and unlike others, I don't spam 1 thread a day to push my wishes on the face of everybody else. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7986
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:53:00 -
[215] - Quote
My word, this certainly strikes a familiar tone.
"Those who defended slavery rose to the challenge set forth by the Abolitionists. The defenders of slavery included economics, history, religion, legality, social good, and even humanitarianism, to further their arguments.
Defenders of slavery argued that the sudden end to the slave economy would have had a profound and killing economic impact in the South where reliance on slave labor was the foundation of their economy. The cotton economy would collapse. The tobacco crop would dry in the fields. Rice would cease being profitable.
Defenders of slavery argued that if all the slaves were freed, there would be widespread unemployment and chaos. This would lead to uprisings, bloodshed, and anarchy"
As we can see, history shows us that there is no ijustice so blatant and monstrous that those who benefit by it will not produce passionate arguments to support it. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:57:00 -
[216] - Quote
Ban Amarr! http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:00:00 -
[217] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Every single, every single PvP MMO I have played had conquerable castles, keeps, stations and whatsnot where the only reward was being able to show your flag and tabard, sometimes getting a 5% buff at what gold NPCs dropped as loot and similar trifles. We had to pay tons of money a day as "upkeeping", keep 24/7 guard at our conquests because there were like 20 available structures to fight for between the whole player base and all wanted to capture your stuff.
Seriously, if you don't feel like you have achieved a reward for holding what you conquered, you are playing a clerk game where all you are in for, is the union contracted base wage.
Even the worst BoB took pride for their conquests as "per se" e-peen display. You new(er)comers seem only interested at some pathetic paid fee for a job you were not even really after.
Yep and all those words you typed so eloquently ignores the fact that one must pay for their building blocks before they can build anything. Building the empire which is analogous to "shaping your empire" is a cost not a reward. That's not even taking into account the ongoing costs of securing your space and maintaining it. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:05:00 -
[218] - Quote
Anchor-anywhere modular POS will solve the industrial imbalance (if CCP allows it to).
It's already been stated by a dev as being in the plan.
You've got bigger problems than this, especially since even Goonswarm space which should be the friendliest and most entertaining space to play in for new players that are part of the empire is a pale shadow of the most backwater NPC regions for activity levels. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Wigglenomics
C O C A I N E
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:07:00 -
[219] - Quote
There is no RISK in Nullsecc when you're blue to 50% of it dude.
I am so sick and tired of these people going around talking about Risk VS Reward....and these people are usually folks in CFC/HBC.
Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3907
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:10:00 -
[220] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:My word, this certainly strikes a familiar tone. ... As we can see, history shows us that there is no injustice so blatant and monstrous that those who benefit by it will not produce passionate arguments to support it.
As we can see we are almost at Godwin's Law thread status. Thanks for pushing forward to it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
264
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:10:00 -
[221] - Quote
Wigglenomics wrote: Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
Balck Ops, Hot Drops, Roaming gangs ...
I'm not complaining about them, but you asked. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3907
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:13:00 -
[222] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Every single, every single PvP MMO I have played had conquerable castles, keeps, stations and whatsnot where the only reward was being able to show your flag and tabard, sometimes getting a 5% buff at what gold NPCs dropped as loot and similar trifles. We had to pay tons of money a day as "upkeeping", keep 24/7 guard at our conquests because there were like 20 available structures to fight for between the whole player base and all wanted to capture your stuff.
Seriously, if you don't feel like you have achieved a reward for holding what you conquered, you are playing a clerk game where all you are in for, is the union contracted base wage.
Even the worst BoB took pride for their conquests as "per se" e-peen display. You new(er)comers seem only interested at some pathetic paid fee for a job you were not even really after.
Yep and all those words you typed so eloquently ignore the fact that one must pay for their building blocks before they can build anything. Building the empire which is analogous to "shaping your empire" is a cost not a reward. That's not even taking into account the ongoing costs of securing your space and maintaining it.
Bolded and underlined the eloquent words of mine you quickly skipped.
Really, nobody is forcing you to go there and hold your castle. EvE does not force anybody to do it, if you are not up for sacrifices for the glory then you should play an accountant game, where you count the beans in and get the beans for your efforts out.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
592
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:13:00 -
[223] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game? Yeah, totally flawed.
Consider what CCP put Nulsec into the game for
"an area of space where capsuleers (the players) can build thier own empires"
At any point have CCP said that doing the above should be easy, cheap or low-risk ?? where CCP have failed in delivering that objective, is by restricting the players ability to achieve it.
If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
But if all you want is for it be handed to you, gift-wrapped, on a silver platter. CCP need do nothing, as you can easily and quickly just move to hisec where you need make no effort to engage in mostly unresricted industrial activities. |
Goldnut Sachs
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:15:00 -
[224] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha I am not unfamiliar with your posting. You are simply against a nerf in highsec, and you often defend your opinions with some vaporous concepts like a big revolutionary change in mechanic, requiring ring mining, mining and sov changes and etc to take place before a hair can be touched on high sec, ending with you stating that you are too rich to care either way, cus you are a super kewl Boiler Room securities trader.
And let's not forget you suport eve going ftp + mircrotransactions. |
Mhax Arthie
Pagan INC
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:32:00 -
[225] - Quote
There is one thing I can't understand in null sec sov. Alliances can have their space, but this space is actually FFA... everybody can travel trough like a boss. So what's the point to have a very expensive pole with you alliance name on it if anybody can travel through your space anytime they want with little to no risk?!
I think it should be implemented a castle system in null sec where the alliance holding the sov can control the gates and let in only their allies. So if you wanna enter in that space, you may have to hack/assault the gate, like the walls nor gate of a real castle. This way those inside the sov space can feel home and somehow secure, including the indy guys. As it is now, null sec sucks and no wonder that the majority prefer to stay in high or low sec. Just sayin... |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:33:00 -
[226] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:I dunno about this, partcularly from a lore POV. I can't come up with reasons why, but I don't really like most of these changes. Seems like what you want is more like a different game altogether. I'll think a little more though. After all, its change, and Change, is not good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLDmlY9yJZo I understand most won't like what I'd like and unlike others, I don't spam 1 thread a day to push my wishes on the face of everybody else.
And some of us don't start PMSing all over the place either. It is becoming quite apparent that I might be better off trying to discuss my point with a shoebox of rampant sea snails, than continue conversing with you. You portray yourself as an ejit of the highest order. |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
10
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:35:00 -
[227] - Quote
Mhax Arthie wrote:There is one thing I can't understand in null sec sov. Alliances can have their space, but this space is actually FFA... everybody can travel trough like a boss. So what's the point to have a very expensive pole with you alliance name on it if anybody can travel through your space anytime they want with little to no risk?!
I think it should be implemented a castle system in null sec where the alliance holding the sov can control the gates and let in only their allies. So if you wanna enter in that space, you may have to hack/assault the gate, like the walls nor gate of a real castle. This way those inside the sov space can feel home and somehow secure, including the indy guys. As it is now, null sec sucks and no wonder that the majority prefer to stay in high or low sec. Just sayin...
It's up to the people holding Sov to protect and control their systems. If they can't/choose not to, I don't think CCP should hold their hands. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
1268
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:42:00 -
[228] - Quote
Wigglenomics wrote:
There is no RISK in Nullsecc when you're blue to 50% of it dude.
I am so sick and tired of these people going around talking about Risk VS Reward....and these people are usually folks in CFC/HBC.
Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
Even if the risk were the same. It's still less profitable to do Industry in 0.0. That is the problem. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:52:00 -
[229] - Quote
Wigglenomics wrote:
There is no RISK in Nullsecc when you're blue to 50% of it dude.
I am so sick and tired of these people going around talking about Risk VS Reward....and these people are usually folks in CFC/HBC.
Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
CONCORD won't save me. That's our risk and its quite a big risk. It's such a big risk it keeps people in highsec. It also isn't a risk that is properly rewarded. The "blue doughnut" myth you are trying to perpetuate here is blatantly false, it's hilarious that so many people use it as an excuse to cover up their own inadequacies. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
804
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:54:00 -
[230] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bolded and underlined the eloquent words of mine you quickly skipped.
Really, nobody is forcing you to go there and hold your castle. EvE does not force anybody to do it, if you are not up for sacrifices for the glory then you should play an accountant game, where you count the beans in and get the beans for your efforts out.
Perhaps you should reread the post and attack the argument there instead of trying to gesticulate it away. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
277
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:59:00 -
[231] - Quote
I, for one, am pretty excited to see this discussion being undertaken. If this thread survives derailment, something positive may actually come from it. (But I've got to say, the flabbergasted responses over the question being asked at all have certainly put a smile on my face this morning. lol) Seriously though, after reading so many topics devoted to the best way to nerf highsec so null can be balanced and EVE saved from certain doom, asking the question of "should" null industry be balanced with highsec is, from my perspective, pretty encouraging.
Regardless of what it does for my "forum reputation" (if there is such a thing I need a forum alt) my general feelings toward the OP's question, is that I'd fall on the side of a "No" response. I think each sec should have unique offerings and that the profit (and more importantly, adventure) potential should scale greater moving toward null obviously. (Which it does.) But do I think null should have an equal number of industry slots as high? Do I think the game should be adjusted so that a fraction of the total characters can be "competitive" with the economic might of the majority? Or should null be able to "provide everything it needs?" Absolutely not. Trade with high sec is (and should be) required as all secs and thus, all players are co-dependent on one another. The most important element affecting the quality of pgc is player interaction. I accept that things need adjustment over time but I'll never be sold on the idea that leaving highsec behind and any chance of interaction with the vast majority of characters ever again - in a sandbox mmo - is a good thing for pgc.
But I also thought Hulkageddon was a good thing for pgc.
Part of the new player experience (trying to prov Mal correct here - think of the NOOOOBS) is finding themselves in this vibrant universe that is alive and well-populated. (I generate new reasons why I disagree with null independence before breakfast on any given day.) Today's reason will be: Were so many players allowed, or encouraged even, to leave highsec and never come back, the vibrancy of that first impression is going to take a hit. High-sec pgc then also takes a hit and with it the new player experience takes a hit. Is any of that also good for the game? Is it worth it? I suspect those are questions only CCP's internal metrics can answer and which they must continually debate.
Imo, the definition of success should not be defined as emancipation from the rest of the game when the game's quality is determined by player interaction.
But. That's just me.
Yonis Kador
Oh, and P.S.
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Ban Amarr!
No. "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:13:00 -
[232] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Wigglenomics wrote: Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
Black Ops, Hot Drops, Roaming gangs, gate camps, drag bubbles ... I'm not complaining about them, but you asked.
So what you're saying is, in order for industry to be safe in nullsec, then none of this can happen? Sounds like hisec. Go there. HTFU!...for the children! |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
10
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:16:00 -
[233] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Cebraio wrote:Wigglenomics wrote: Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
Black Ops, Hot Drops, Roaming gangs, gate camps, drag bubbles ... I'm not complaining about them, but you asked. So what you're saying is, in order for industry to be safe in nullsec, then none of this can happen? Sounds like hisec. Go there.
In what worldly language is he in any way suggesting that? You asked Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?[/quote]
He answered. They don't make it impossible at all, just more risky. |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
583
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:23:00 -
[234] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. False: Building the empire is a cost ok. then next question: what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0? What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH?
|
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:34:00 -
[235] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. False: Building the empire is a cost ok. then next question: what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0? What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH?
The reward for SOV goes to the alliance. In w-space, the reward of holding a system goes to the corp and individuals that make it up. HTFU!...for the children! |
Cebraio
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
264
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:37:00 -
[236] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Cebraio wrote:Wigglenomics wrote: Really? What RISK do you have in Nullsec that Highseccers don't have?
Black Ops, Hot Drops, Roaming gangs, gate camps, drag bubbles ... I'm not complaining about them, but you asked. So what you're saying is, in order for industry to be safe in nullsec, then none of this can happen? Sounds like hisec. Go there. No, I'm not saying that and you should l2read. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13090
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:37:00 -
[237] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Consider what CCP put Nulsec into the game for
"an area of space where capsuleers (the players) can build thier own empires"
At any point have CCP said that doing the above should be easy, cheap or low-risk ?? where CCP have failed in delivering that objective, is by restricting the players ability to achieve it. GǪand no-one is asking for it to be easy, cheap, or low-risk GÇö just that the difficulty, expense and risk should be accompanied by commensurate rewards.
Quote:If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.
I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time). 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.
GǪand that's just to make a null system provide the same capacity as a highsec system GÇö note how most of those buffs can be measured in orders of magnitude(!) We haven't even begin to touch the things that need to happen to compensate for the difficulty, expense and risk. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:47:00 -
[238] - Quote
Tippia, would all of that add anything worth doing to the space?
POSes can already supply more industrial capacity than actually gets used, because there isn't enough of a market to justify any more work than the odd JF run from highsec.
Unless there's a latent market that nobody is talking about there just aren't enough people to justify major changes to nullsec industry. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
805
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:59:00 -
[239] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. False: Building the empire is a cost ok. then next question: what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0? What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH?
"what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0?" That part is subjective, I would personally say control. Yet there isn't enough of a competitive advantage so that control isn't really useful. It's also one of the reasons people don't fight as often as the forum howls for. If there is no advantage to be taken from someone else why fight them?
"What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH?" I think you are trying to say "What makes you want to be in SOV 0.0 instead of being in lowsec/NPC 0.0/WH" if that's not the case correct me.
I am not in SOV 0.0 unless there is a fleet op, most of my time is spent awoxing people in highsec. We might have control of our area of space but, control of nothing is still nothing. Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13092
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:08:00 -
[240] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tippia, would all of that add anything worth doing to the space? Yes. Industry.
POSes can't supply any actual industrial capacity for two simple reasons: storage space and refineries. A station lets you cart over aaaaall those 425s, rclickGåÆrecycle, and then you have a massive pile of minerals (wellGǪ no more than 2^31-1, so it can't be that massive, but still) that go into every kind of thing you want to build, be it ships or drones or ammo or T1 modules or T2 modules or mixed-content modules such as cloaks. Bam done. If you want to build something you didn't think of, just rclickGåÆmanufacture because all the stuff is there. When the pile grows thin, just rclickGåÆrecycle more stuff and keep going.
In a POS, you have to take all those modules to the station (hopefully in the same system); rclickGåÆrecycle there, because if you do it in the POS it'll be ready by the time the dinosaurs have re-evolved from canaries; cart all those minerals in fiftyeleven freighter runs (have you tried manoeuvring a freighter inside a tightly packed POS, btw?) to the POS; at the POS, you must know where everything goes because you have different arrays for different products and each of them have limited storage capacity; and if you want to manufacture something else, you have to go to the POS and rearrange materials between arrays (and hope to god they're close enough or you'll have to break out the freighter again)GǪ
GǪoh, and then your POS gets blown up with all the minerals inside.
To make POSes take up the slack, you'd have to give them things like infinite storage, multiple-purpose production lines, instant (and perfect) refineries, and preferably docking capabilities too. We have this kind of POS already GÇö they're called outposts. That's why I'm suggesting outposts as the thing to provide the industry counterpart to NPC stations: because they areGǪ you knowGǪ the counterpart to stations. Also, because changing POSes would just mean that people started using these much-improved POSes in highsec instead, and all we've managed is to make outposts an obsolete game construct.
Quote:Unless there's a latent market that nobody is talking about there just aren't enough people to justify major changes to nullsec industry. Sure there is. The problem is that they're all in highsec doing their thing rather than producing locally because it would be utterly idiotic for them not to take advantage of the free, safe, easy, and infinitely available capacity. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2589
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:09:00 -
[241] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had.
Yeah. I for one would not spend most of my time in highsec stealing from & awoxing highsec carebears if nullsec was actually worth using.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:12:00 -
[242] - Quote
The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:16:00 -
[243] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub.
VFK market and whatever the TEST one is are the busiest nullsec trade hubs in the game. The problem is the logistics cost is not properly rewarded and that the industrial capacity of the sov space cannot meet the demand of the trade hub. This makes a lot of people go :effort: and JF in a batch of stuff from jita instead of buying locally. I would agree with you about the self-inflicted wound thing iff the industrial capacity was there. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:17:00 -
[244] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub.
They do exist, but they're often far away, and its often much easier to just go back to Jita. It's not that null seccers cant do what your suggesting, its just not worthwhile due to the costs involved. It is much easier to give a shopping list to someone doing a high sec run. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
279
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:18:00 -
[245] - Quote
Tippia (just) wrote: ...a cautionary tale explaining why moving high sec industry to POS's would also be an increased logistical challenge...
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:22:00 -
[246] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub. They do exist, but they're often far away, and its often much easier to just go back to Jita. It's not that null seccers cant do what your suggesting, its just not worthwhile due to the costs involved. It is much easier to give a shopping list to someone doing a high sec run.
I live in NULL as well btw, I just haven't been down there for the many years the game has been running (I played many years in hi and low only).
So, in reading these two responses I am curious if maybe the deeper issue is simply this:
If I have to go more than a few jumps, I am going to use my JF or Carrier to move my stuff. So, if I need to use my 7 billion isk JF, I might as well jump it to Jita 4-4 since the cost to do so is basically the same (maybe a tad more fuel, which is cheap). The only other issue would be the transfer from Low-Hi which isn't too difficult.
If these Sov hubs are so busy, why aren't people using them instead of Jita? Purely location and ease of transport making the distance irrelevant? |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:25:00 -
[247] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub. VFK market and whatever the TEST one is are the busiest nullsec trade hubs in the game. The problem is the logistics cost is not properly rewarded and that the industrial capacity of the sov space cannot meet the demand of the trade hub. This makes a lot of people go :effort: and JF in a batch of stuff from jita instead of buying locally. I would agree with you about the self-inflicted wound thing iff the industrial capacity was there.
Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. Space rocks and Ice all over the place! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13092
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:28:00 -
[248] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. GǪexcept that the only thing worse than manufacturing at an outpost is manufacturing at a POS GÇö taking all the woes of null production and suffering them twice over does not make the woes go away. Quite the opposite.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:31:00 -
[249] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. GǪexcept that the only thing worse than manufacturing at an outpost is manufacturing at a POS GÇö taking all the woes of null production and suffering them twice over does not make the woes go away. Quite the opposite.
I have only manufactured ammo from a POS, and have limited experience with larger scope manufacturing. What makes it so painful? If that issue were addressed, would the result cascade into more market hubs popping up in Sov, and thus reducing the Jita hub flood? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:34:00 -
[250] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:Tippia wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. GǪexcept that the only thing worse than manufacturing at an outpost is manufacturing at a POS GÇö taking all the woes of null production and suffering them twice over does not make the woes go away. Quite the opposite. I have only manufactured ammo from a POS, and have limited experience with larger scope manufacturing. What makes it so painful? If that issue were addressed, would the result cascade into more market hubs popping up in Sov, and thus reducing the Jita hub flood?
It is a long list but to start, the UI, the maintenance of the POS, and the logistics involved. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:37:00 -
[251] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. Space rocks and Ice all over the place! Note: i am not in the same Sov space as you so maybe they are different respectively.
It was posted earlier that one highsec system, Sobaseki, has more industrial capacity than entire nullsec reasons. In summary outposts are terrible at pretty much everything. POS manufacturing is about as attractive as self circumcision, so I'll leave it as an exercise to yourself in order to figure why that isn't done more often. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
341
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:39:00 -
[252] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:
I am not in SOV 0.0 unless there is a fleet op, most of my time is spent awoxing people in highsec. We might have control of our area of space but, control of nothing is still nothing. Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had.
Would a requirement to use the space make people be there or would it amke them quit? By requirement I mean you literally HAVE TO do stuff in there or your SOV drop/is lost. Shooting red crosses, mining, industry, PI, anything really but completely REQUIRED for it to stay under your SOV. Would alliance/coalition just say **** this **** it's too much of a grind to keep up or would they do it? Would null sec people find it "too carebear" to do stuff like that insetad of PvP? It's important because we can't really force PvP anyway.
Those requirment would, if implemented well make sure there are always ship in space AND of course provide an income generated by activity insetad of "passive" moons. Taxes would then be set to fund the corps/alliance. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:41:00 -
[253] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Tippia wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. GǪexcept that the only thing worse than manufacturing at an outpost is manufacturing at a POS GÇö taking all the woes of null production and suffering them twice over does not make the woes go away. Quite the opposite. I have only manufactured ammo from a POS, and have limited experience with larger scope manufacturing. What makes it so painful? If that issue were addressed, would the result cascade into more market hubs popping up in Sov, and thus reducing the Jita hub flood? It is a long list but to start, the UI, the maintenance of the POS, and the logistics involved.
I found the POS UI inefficient and hindering no doubt. However, I lack confidence in CCP's ability to make a decent UI, so let's set that one aside for a moment.
If the POS upkeep *costs* were less than the equivalent cost of JF fuel and related logistics needed to haul the raw materials and finished goods to/from Jita, would we see a slow migration to more market hubs in your opinion? Or is the risk of being POS-bashed or station camped by afk cloakers (or a real threat) still too much burden to be worth it?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3907
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:44:00 -
[254] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand no-one is asking for it to be easy, cheap, or low-risk GÇö just that the difficulty, expense and risk should be accompanied by commensurate rewards.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the post about buffing sov stations, this sentence begs two questions:
1) If it's not commesurate reward why are there anybody fighting for sov and people don't just stay in NPC null sec or even go back to hi sec?
2) Why most other alliances past and present including the ones I played in, never, ever posted a single thread like this, yet you see CFC (and to a much lesser degree) HBC continuously post about these nerf this - buff that threads?
3) Do you think we were imbeciles to stage in low sec, prepare and train for long months and then go to null sec and fight our way through other guys sovereignty and conquer their territory?
Because apparently we were doing it for the honor and the fame, and the CCP chronichles and the blogs around the world chanting how great and epic the EvE battles.
These days if you want to read about an EvE epic battle you have to go back to the "Ooops I gated my Titan in instead of bridging people" chronicle, that is something that was not even meant to happen.
Yet, these days, it looks like all those guys FORCED to build their empire really need the trillions puring out of every rock or else...
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:53:00 -
[255] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:La Nariz wrote:
I am not in SOV 0.0 unless there is a fleet op, most of my time is spent awoxing people in highsec. We might have control of our area of space but, control of nothing is still nothing. Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had.
Would a requirement to use the space make people be there or would it amke them quit? By requirement I mean you literally HAVE TO do stuff in there or your SOV drop/is lost. Shooting red crosses, mining, industry, PI, anything really but completely REQUIRED for it to stay under your SOV. Would alliance/coalition just say **** this **** it's too much of a grind to keep up or would they do it? Would null sec people find it "too carebear" to do stuff like that insetad of PvP? It's important because we can't really force PvP anyway. Those requirment would, if implemented well make sure there are always ship in space AND of course provide an income generated by activity insetad of "passive" moons. Taxes would then be set to fund the corps/alliance.
If a requirement is put in place but the way to meet the requirement is onerous then yes people will leave. No one likes to log in to grind fest, if there's going to be a requirement it needs to be naturally met from people's regular activity in space. There should be no special effort to maintain it. Basically give us fun things to do in our space before putting any requirement about making us stay in our space. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:56:00 -
[256] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:La Nariz wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Tippia wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Help me out here, what do you mean "if the industrial capacity was there"? I see empty moons all over down here just waiting for a manufacturing POS to go up on. Slots galore. GǪexcept that the only thing worse than manufacturing at an outpost is manufacturing at a POS GÇö taking all the woes of null production and suffering them twice over does not make the woes go away. Quite the opposite. I have only manufactured ammo from a POS, and have limited experience with larger scope manufacturing. What makes it so painful? If that issue were addressed, would the result cascade into more market hubs popping up in Sov, and thus reducing the Jita hub flood? It is a long list but to start, the UI, the maintenance of the POS, and the logistics involved. I found the POS UI inefficient and hindering no doubt. However, I lack confidence in CCP's ability to make a decent UI, so let's set that one aside for a moment. If the POS upkeep *costs* were less than the equivalent cost of JF fuel and related logistics needed to haul the raw materials and finished goods to/from Jita, would we see a slow migration to more market hubs in your opinion? Or is the risk of being POS-bashed or station camped by afk cloakers (or a real threat) still too much burden to be worth it?
I think you'd see more market hubs in nullsec if the logistics costs were properly rewarded or compensated. The risk of being attacked is always there it's just not properly rewarded right now. If both of those are rewarded you will see new trade hubs pop up in nullsec. I don't think anything players do will shift jita, that's something CCP will have to do like they did with Yulai if I remember correctly. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3907
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:00:00 -
[257] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:So, in reading these two responses I am curious if maybe the deeper issue is simply this:
If I have to go more than a few jumps, I am going to use my JF or Carrier to move my stuff. So, if I need to use my 7 billion isk JF, I might as well jump it to Jita 4-4 since the cost to do so is basically the same (maybe a tad more fuel, which is cheap). The only other issue would be the transfer from Low-Hi which isn't too difficult.
If these Sov hubs are so busy, why aren't people using them instead of Jita? Purely location and ease of transport making the distance irrelevant?
Because in the end
- you end up spending similar amounts of ISK to move the stuff either going to Jita or the null sec hub. - you end up spending similar amounts of time to move the stuff either either going to Jita or the null sec hub. - you can ferry the same items either either going to Jita or the null sec hub.
So, null sec industry or not, in the end what happens is this:
1) Why should I spend ISK to ferry stuff to my local sov hub when Jita WILL get my full volume of goods sold and fast? 2) Why should I spend this time to ferry stuff to my local sov hub when Jita offers better deals and sells quicker? 3) Why should I bother making my widgets for my local sov hub where half won't be bought when Jita will take all? 4) Why should I risk my 7B ship and perhaps land in the middle of some hot crap going on (this expecially applies to NPC null) when I can cyno close to hi sec and avoid most of it? 5) Why should I create say 100 capital parts BPCs for resale that I can't sell anytime soon in my sov null sec hub, when I can get them sold in a week in Jita? 6) Jita got magic Concord and magic "hi sec" all around it, I can go solo, I can slack, I can go there with no effort, I can do mistakes and (unless being an idiot with some 7B in cargo) the JF won't get popped. How does the local sov hub compare to that?
There's only 1 answer to that: as long as there's magic NPCs and basically as long as hi sec exists, then you can do anything to boost null sec and nerf hi sec yet people will still solidly prefer Jita.
That is, a reasoned and deep change is needed to really alter the current gameplay, just buffing or nerfing industry is but one cog in a giant mechanism that can't work if the rest of the game stays as is.
Hi sec has to go. We all know this.
Most don't have the gonads to say so. Most in the deep of their mind don't really want it to happen.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13094
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:01:00 -
[258] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:I have only manufactured ammo from a POS, and have limited experience with larger scope manufacturing. What makes it so painful? See my post on the previous page.
GǪor, for an illustration, let's say I want to produce a couple of battleships (not even mass-produce) GÇö one of those things that are actually a bit of a faff to import from high.
I've bribed some devs to give me three perfect ME Rokh BPOs (because I haven't had the 25 years required to research them yet). I've put up a POS with a LSAA (but no refinery because fsck that GÇö less material capacity than a JF and a 3-hour cycle time, after which I've lost a crapton of minerals? No thanks).
So I slot in my three BPOs and want to build, oh, let's say 10 Rokhs from each. That means filling the LSAA with 14,855,823 +ù 3 +ù 10 units of minerals GÇö 4,456,746.9 m-¦ worth. Oh dear.
If I were in a station, I could just cart out 4000 425mm rails and refine them and it'll all be there. Unfortunately, it's in a POS, so I can't. Instead, I have to haul them to the station, refine them there, and then transport the full-sized minerals out to the POS. At 4.5M m-¦, that means ten trips with the freighterGǪ A roundtrip that on its own can quite easily take an hour because, well, it's a freighter GÇö not exactly something you'd use to skip around the galaxy (or even the system) without being absolutely sure that it'll be a clear run. That's an hour looking at the rear end of a slug rather than blowing stuff up and earning ISK, so I've already lost maybe a hundred mil ISK from the transportation alone.
Fourty hours later, not only do I have to do that mineral haul all over again, but I now have 30 battleships parked in a POS where they're not doing anything good. I want them back in the corp hangar where people can pull them out and put them to good use. If I were in a station, they'd already be there, buuuuutGǪ no, I'm in a POS. That means hauling 1,500,000 m-¦ worth of repackaged ships back to the station. That's just four runs, so maybe I've only missed out on 20GÇô30M on that move.
That's for 30 ships GÇö what's commonly known as a small-group roamGǪ now imagine instead that I want to supply 600 instead to really make use of that POS and equip a large fleet instead.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Zircon Dasher
142
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:02:00 -
[259] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:La Nariz wrote:
I am not in SOV 0.0 unless there is a fleet op, most of my time is spent awoxing people in highsec. We might have control of our area of space but, control of nothing is still nothing. Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had.
Would a requirement to use the space make people be there or would it amke them quit? By requirement I mean you literally HAVE TO do stuff in there or your SOV drop/is lost. Shooting red crosses, mining, industry, PI, anything really but completely REQUIRED for it to stay under your SOV. Would alliance/coalition just say **** this **** it's too much of a grind to keep up or would they do it? Would null sec people find it "too carebear" to do stuff like that insetad of PvP? It's important because we can't really force PvP anyway. Those requirment would, if implemented well make sure there are always ship in space AND of course provide an income generated by activity insetad of "passive" moons. Taxes would then be set to fund the corps/alliance.
If this income system (2nd paragraph) is put into place, then the stuff about SOV is a consequent. Meaning that alliances/corps (depending on implementation) have a vested interest in maintaining farms and fields -which gives those who only log in to PVP a chance for fights that do not necessarily involve bringing their 1000 closest friends- but only if those farms and fields are actually sufficient to draw the alts back from High/Low/W-space. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:05:00 -
[260] - Quote
This thread is going round in ever decreasing circles. This is not a signature. |
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:09:00 -
[261] - Quote
The answer to this question is pretty obvious. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:15:00 -
[262] - Quote
As someone who does a lot of high sec industry yet spent the majority of my career in null; I would love to see a system that rewarded industrialists for living in 0.0 but didn't take away the safety blanket of high-sec. That said I think itGÇÖs a lot harder than nerfing or buffing anything.
In 3 points:
1) The barrier to entry in Null is very high - sure you can join a corp and participate in Null as they see fit, but if you are a highly-advanced industrialist then you most likely want to have your own corp in place to manage POS assets and such. Joining 0.0 alliances as an industrialist corp (even with high SP PVPers in your ranks) isn't the easiest thing to do, yes it can be done but expecting your average high-sec manufacturer to even know where to start or who to approach is a stretch at best not to mention an exercise in attempting not to get scammed.
Often when I hear calls to nerf high-sec industry without an associated plan as to how one would provide for an industrial play style in 0.0 or low sec which I feel is equatable to asking CCP to turn off a part of the game many people enjoy. I'm not opposed to CCP changing the game in such a way that encourages industry to move to less secure space or encourages PVP in general but I believe it has to be done in a way that includes some form of matchmaking (alliance placement/recruitment tools and/or incentives) or some as yet undiscussed method of lowering the barrier to entry.
2) GÇ£Null sec is scaryGÇ¥ - This is a perception that I can never get over just how ubiquitous it is in this game. When I started playing EVE the game was a lot different (remember needing to find someone who owned a BPO and hiring them to build you a ship? Open Market! pshaw!) and as such I never really experienced the whole "Null is the home of god-like PVPers, massive blobs of gate campers and every system has a cloaked scanning ship just waiting for you to stop somewhere" type perception I see so often. I moved to null while I was still pretty new so it was "where I grew up" but that was also before it had become so entrenched with massive power blocs.
For many of my newer friends (people that have now been playing for 3 or 4 years) Null represents a perception of some sort of forbidden fruit, a land of lawlessness and almost guaranteed loss if you donGÇÖt own a moon to poop out ISK-goo. While anyone thatGÇÖs spent time in Null knows that the situation is much more complex than that (NPC Space, NRDS areas, Complexes, etc.) and that there are lots of money making opportunities but itGÇÖs hard to convince high-sec industrialists that they should give up a very enjoyable play style for one that earns them almost no additional reward but carries with it an immense amount of risk. If you try and drive these same people to null by nerfing the bajeezus out of high-sec then they are simply going to quit not move, would you play a game that the developer decided the way youGÇÖve been playing for 4 or 5 years shouldnGÇÖt be allowed regardless of its impact on the health of the game? IGÇÖm not justifying the position, merely stating that I find it to be exactly as I would have expected. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:15:00 -
[263] - Quote
3) The big: GÇÿWhy?GÇÖ GÇô I think one of the most important questions being asked right now by a player who is both knowledgeable about 0.0 and considering a move out there is GÇ£why should I?GÇ¥ At the moment, if you are earning 1B+ ISK in high-sec per month, have the option of PVP roaming (IGÇÖve noticed the massive rise of GÇ£Kil2 style PVPGÇ¥, solo pvpers in cheap-ish ships starting in Jita and going roaming in null/low sec) when you feel like it, the ability to conduct industrial activities safely, etc. Why would you ever move to null?
Well, thereGÇÖs the massive fights that most EVE players love (even if only to read about), thereGÇÖs moon mining, and there is ratting/WHs/exploration (PVE). So let me take a moment to examine each of these points:
a.Alliance scale warfare GÇô there is one thing that virtually every EVE player agrees on; the current sov grind sucks. Slowly grinding structures and waiting on timers isnGÇÖt the most fun or immersive way to fight with internet spaceships and while the old POS based version of sov wasnGÇÖt much better (anyone remember the battle for FAT-32 way back during the first part of the great war? POS spamming and remote doomsdays FTW! T_T ) The one point of disagreement is whether grinding structures is worth it to potentially bring about a meaningful fight. Obviously this debate has played out in public recently but itGÇÖs hardly surprising. While I agree with people like Shadoo that grinding sov sucks, I donGÇÖt know that a Thunderdome with a few tech moons or whatever as a side bet is going to be a whole lot better (the current plan at least as publicly reported). I obviously canGÇÖt speak for their pilots but I, for one, am not exactly salivating to join up with one of the participating parties to get in on some GÇ£gudfightsGÇ¥.
On top of all of this, the interesting and unintended consequence of TiDi has been that when a big fight happens somewhere, all of the null ends of having a chance to join in which obviously makes things very unpredictable. I can only imagine this will be worse when a massive battle is planned for a system or region and this information is available in advance. Big fights are good but TiDi to the point where it crushes your soul isnGÇÖt much better than the old lag filled mid-sized fights (but is definitely better than the old strobe-light giant battles).
b.Moon Goo GÇô The holy grail of industry, as any major manufacturer thatGÇÖs been involved in the Tech2 production cycle knows; Moon goo is one of the main driving forces of the EVE economy. Unfortunately the static nature of the moon mining system, the issues with the current sov system and the null-sec geopolitical situation have basically made it so that profits from moon mining are really only seen at the alliance level. Different alliances do different things with this income (whether financing cap fleets or paying their FCGÇÖs mortgage) but at the end of the day it does nothing to create opportunity for the individual industrialist, in most alliances I find itGÇÖs easier to just buy goo from Jita rather than try and get the Alliance to provide it for production purposes (often even if that production is intended to benefit the alliance!). In other words, it does nothing to increase the attractiveness of 0.0 to the average player.
c.PVE in 0.0 can be very profitable, even back in the old days of running 10/10 complexes it has always been profitable, that said, there is a major disparity between PVE income and industry income for two reasons; first, there is PVP risk involved in PVE activities which makes it possible to lose more than you earn (a scary thought for many industrialist types), second, itGÇÖs not an extensible activity that can have its profitability multiplied by plexing alts. The ability to add an alt, pay for its plex, and still make a profit by expanding your current operation is one of the major reasons why industry is so popular. Especially given the semi-passive nature of the income, itGÇÖs obviously considerably harder to apply the same approach to PVE since I doubt most players could effectively run 5+ characters in PVE and I think the point of this argument is self-evident. The one additionally relevant point is a player can move a character to 0.0 participate in PVP and PVE yet have high-sec industry going at the same time via alts. The question then becomes is that fair or excessive that the player in question is allowed to do both? Since I donGÇÖt see a for-profit company (CCP) deciding that their customers may only buy one of their product as opposed to many, I doubt the policies regarding the fundamental principle of multi-accounts will ever be changed for that reason.
In a perfect world IGÇÖd love to be able to agree with people like James 315 and find a way to get everyone out of high-sec but itGÇÖs hard to take a pacifier from a baby thatGÇÖs already had one and to continue the analogy you donGÇÖt throw the baby out with the bath water. High-sec industry is fun, why not make low and null sec industry more fun as a way to bring people out instead of simply making high-sec not fun. At the end of the day I think changing the Sov and POS systems to make null more fun for everyone would do more to bring people out then a major change to high-sec industry and regardless I think it makes sense to try that first.
TL;DR High sec is fun, so is Null but itGÇÖs hard to get established. Making Sov fun, lowering the barrier to entry for Null and creating industrial incentives would be far preferable to nerfing high-sec industry.
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Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:16:00 -
[264] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:The only real reason that industry is not worth doing in Sov, is because the market that was established by players is too far away, which causes logistical costs and risks.
Have any of the large alliances/coalitions attempted to establish Sov market hubs in their space? As in serious coordinated effort, not just places to buy your PVP Doctrine ships? Wouldn't logistics become *less* of an issue? In fact, the increase in blue traffic to the market hub may actually make logistics safer as well, wouldn't it? I see more space rocks and open moons in null than I see in hisec. Seems industry would do well down here if *demand* existed.
Or are we forever locked into perpetual jump freighter hauls to and from Jita 4-4? To be self sufficient in this game, you need to able to get your **** to where the demand is. It is natural to want to produce said **** (ratting, anoms, sigs, mining, manufacturing, etc) as close to the demand as possible.
Sounds like a self-inflicted wound to me.
Provide the market hub where **** is needed (in sov), and the demand will come (my prediction). This could be done by each alliance/coalition. Build one market hub in the center of each of their greedy little donuts or maybe have CCP establish another hisec pocket deep in null to act as a market hub. VFK market and whatever the TEST one is are the busiest nullsec trade hubs in the game. The problem is the logistics cost is not properly rewarded and that the industrial capacity of the sov space cannot meet the demand of the trade hub. This makes a lot of people go :effort: and JF in a batch of stuff from jita instead of buying locally. I would agree with you about the self-inflicted wound thing iff the industrial capacity was there. Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:27:00 -
[265] - Quote
From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:31:00 -
[266] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3499
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:34:00 -
[267] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec. So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. But you COULD gauge out your eye on POS costs, therefore the easy and nearly-free slots in highsec are A-OK.
Checkmate, null zealot. I am a nullsec zealot. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5503
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:40:00 -
[268] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec. So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. But you COULD gauge out your eye on POS costs, therefore the easy and nearly-free slots in highsec are A-OK. Checkmate, null zealot.
A new tactic to beat goons. Have them all put on suicide watch as they tend to countless towers. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:46:00 -
[269] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots.
Who says they aren't? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:47:00 -
[270] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. Who says they aren't?
Oh, highsec players actually have to maintain those free NPC stations now do they? Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:48:00 -
[271] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Who says they aren't?
The game mechanics? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:50:00 -
[272] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions.
The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:56:00 -
[273] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions. The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is.
What if they removed the free station slots and you had to use high-sec pos slots? Would that change your opinion? I know a lot of people that do most of their manufacturing in PoSes for a number of reasons (proximity to trade hubs, etc). Again this would create an issue for new players looking to learn manufacturing. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:57:00 -
[274] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. Who says they aren't? Oh, highsec players actually have to maintain those free NPC stations now do they?
The players aren't the ones who control empire sov. But your taxes while in highsec are going somewhere I'm sure. Think of all those npc corps and agents and empire space and all that money NOT going into your wallet as you perform functions while you are there.
From a lore standpoint, that's highsec... not player but npc. Which is what highsec is. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:58:00 -
[275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Who says they aren't?
The game mechanics?
Which game mechanic? The tax? or the seed costs? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:58:00 -
[276] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation.
So you are attributing the lack of industry in nullsec to player laziness now? Yeah that's a bunch of crap. Highsec is too good when it comes to industry hence everyone and their brother moving their industrial stuff to highsec. Reread my post, Sobaseki a highsec system has more slots than entire nullsec regions. The core of this debate is basically should player created content be better than NPC content? The answer to that is yes, player content is what makes the game what it is. It wasn't my intent to attack you personally, I'm sorry that you see it as such.
I know why there isn't an industrial POS on every moon though, and it has nothing to do with the state of highsec industry and everything to do with the failings of the POS system.
But I understand your disappointment in discovering that the brass ring is actually plated plastic, and hollow at that. It does make a person feel like lashing out at everyone they see as having things better. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Nordanvind
Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 18:59:00 -
[277] - Quote
A higher risk should always give a higher reward. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:03:00 -
[278] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation.
From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread.
Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed.
Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec.
Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay.
Highsec was still buffed repeatedly.
I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix."
I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is.
Highsec is always in the calculation. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:10:00 -
[279] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation. From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread. Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed. Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec. Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay. Highsec was still buffed repeatedly. I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix." I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is. Highsec is always in the calculation.
So you're saying that highsec is the pillow you bit all night in your frustration? I don't understand what you're trying to mock. You clearly made decisions knowing the cost and the risks and I'm only seeing poeple cry about them and look to blame others for it.
Sounds like you and yours have some serious issues with frustration. I mean, we can only read what YOU post right? Not MY fault if your information giving skills suck ass.
And I do live in nullsec. We in fact recently moved systems in the same region. Perhaps you should do some research as well. You know, to stay informed. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:14:00 -
[280] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "blue everything" (quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the sov was taken right? Before dronelands got changed, and before tech and moongoo were what they are now.
Yet still null was taken. And NIP/NAP and coalitions were still formed, knowing industry in null sucked.
People still used highsec alts. People still flew down to harass and terrorize highseccers.
People still made alts to awox and gank and wreak havoc.
Jita was still scheduled to burn.
I'm starting to see the trend that industry is now the new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix".
I don't see where this change to null industry happened only AFTER you decided to take and live and try to make sov null flourish as you think it does.
Highsec should not be in that calculation. From what I've read, this has been a problem for quite some time, most likely predating the "you have no experience with what you are talking about and should learn about it before posting"(quoted for obvious reasons) yet this issue has been known before all the posts were made right? Before posts in this thread and that thread oh and also in the other thread. Yet a post was still made even though it was horribly under-informed. Posts were still made while asserting full-know how of the goings on in nullsec. Posts were still made while asserting that highsec superiority is okay. Highsec was still buffed repeatedly. I'm starting to see a the trend that making bad uninformed posts is your new "target" and not really being a priority to "fix." I don't see where this change to bad posting happened only AFTER you decided that you really didn't live in nullsec and decided that even though you have no experience it is fine as it is. Highsec is always in the calculation. So you're saying that highsec is the pillow you bit all night in your frustration? I don't understand what you're trying to mock. You clearly made decisions knowing the cost and the risks and I'm only seeing poeple cry about them and look to blame others for it. Sounds like you and yours have some serious issues with frustration. I mean, we can only read what YOU post right? Not MY fault if your information giving skills suck ass. And I do live in nullsec. We in fact recently moved systems in the same region. Perhaps you should do some research as well. You know, to stay informed.
Your assuming there was a point to his post aside from angering you, that was your first mistake. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:17:00 -
[281] - Quote
True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:19:00 -
[282] - Quote
If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
103
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:21:00 -
[283] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
I dont see why a sov POS couldnt be grown to a large size surpassing the benefits of a highsec POS, maybe if your corp/alliance controls the system you are able to double or perhaps triple its capability, faster production, more runs and better research, of course it woudld require investment as well. Something more than just buying extra POS hardware. Though i Also dont know if such a thing as sov exists in lowsec however as the topic only stated null v high where i know sov does happen, why not make upgraded POS's a benefit. Givesome reason to actually fight for space other than obligatory explosions |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:27:00 -
[284] - Quote
Manufacturing out of POS adds a risk, as your POS might be reinforced then, later, blapped. Which loses you stuff stored in it. like BPOs. which can be pricy.
The normal route to avoid that is to store them in corp hangers in stations/outposts.
In systems without such, you have a significantly higher risk on that investment, to no benefit.
How about, in null, the ability to rent hangers on planets. Which you can then access via something like a POCO.
Blap the structure, and anything in it is nuked. But nothing is kept in that structure, unless you're crazy.
Sure, it's storage that is pretty much invulnerable. But so is anything in a station or outpost. Reduces a risk to the same as elsewhere. (Bar the structure being Blapped and needing replaced.)
Monthly fee, split between the sov holder and CCP (representing people needing paid)? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:29:00 -
[285] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: Reread the GP.
There is plenty of potential industrial capacity, it's just easier to ship stuff out from highsec.
Making POSes easier to work with would obviously go a fair ways to fixing this (perhaps even the whole way), but it doesn't change that the market can be serviced by JFs hopping out from Jita, taking a very small portion of the market with them.
The tools are there, yet not being used.
It's scant wonder that CCP would be making the observation that people don't seem that interested in POSes given that situation
The potential is there, but at the cost of many man-hours of refuelling, moving parts from POS to POS, setting the things up which is an awful way to spend a day, the setup costs, the maintenace costs... I could go on. Meanwhile in highsec, you go to your free NPC station & pay a miniscule amount of isk & start generating immediate profit. For us to reproduce the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station, you're looking at around 20 POS towers, which is a logistical nightmare to setup & maintain, plus the profit potential is very low. It's no wonder the only things that get produced out in nullsec are supercaps.
We do haul out pretty much everything with JF's but it shouldn't be that way. A POS revamp such as the one Malcanis & Mynna have been flirting with would give us the option of having decent industry (or other) capabilities if we chose to dump trillions of isk in to them. These would be destructable & bring more people back to nullsec.
CCP has a habit of looking at the numbers & ignoring what people say. People don't use POS's right now in big numbers because they are absolutely awful to setup & maintain, anyone who has tried it knows this. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:34:00 -
[286] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Manufacturing out of POS adds a risk, as your POS might be reinforced then, later, blapped. Which loses you stuff stored in it. like BPOs. which can be pricy.
The normal route to avoid that is to store them in corp hangers in stations/outposts.
In systems without such, you have a significantly higher risk on that investment, to no benefit.
How about, in null, the ability to rent hangers on planets. Which you can then access via something like a POCO.
Blap the structure, and anything in it is nuked. But nothing is kept in that structure, unless you're crazy.
Sure, it's storage that is pretty much invulnerable. But so is anything in a station or outpost. Reduces a risk to the same as elsewhere. (Bar the structure being Blapped and needing replaced.)
Monthly fee, split between the sov holder and CCP (representing people needing paid)?
I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation?
I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! ) |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2590
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:35:00 -
[287] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:
No, you're wrong. It is possible to make null competitive with HS. Nothing is stopping you from building the production facilities using POS's. Null has better resources. Null has better everything. What it doesn't have is safe travel with the ability to move large amounts of material relatively risk free. And because nullsec alliances suffer from meglomania and everyone else there is so bored they'd shoot their mother, it's never going to be that kind of place which is aka hisec.
So when are high sec going to start paying trillions in structure upkeep like we have to in order to get those slots. Who says they aren't? Oh, highsec players actually have to maintain those free NPC stations now do they? The players aren't the ones who control empire sov. But your taxes while in highsec are going somewhere I'm sure. Think of all those npc corps and agents and empire space and all that money NOT going into your wallet as you perform functions while you are there. From a lore standpoint, that's highsec... not player but npc. Which is what highsec is.
Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:38:00 -
[288] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. If you want to understand the situation more fully, consider the existence of other highsec trade hubs.
Why are there trade hubs at Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie when Jita is already a one-stop-shop?
Why do all these systems have ship kill rates to make many nullsec regions jealous? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Amarr http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Rens http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Dodixie
It's because these are systems where players gather and interact.
This is player generated content, emergent and beautiful.
All happening under and despite the oppressive eye of CONCORD.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:39:00 -
[289] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station.
True but they are the equivalent costs. I don't think anyone is arguing that the additional cost of having to conduct industry in null is worth it by comparison to high-sec once you account for everything or that it shouldnt be changed. Just that that change shouldn't be nerfing high-sec. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:39:00 -
[290] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:For us to reproduce the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station, you're looking at around 20 POS towers, which is a logistical nightmare to setup & maintain, plus the profit potential is very low. It's no wonder the only things that get produced out in nullsec are supercaps.
Depends on the station. And what you're wanting to make there. 1 Large POS can easily match some, when all you do is manufacture modules or components (some stations just have 50 factory slots). And while it is more expensive per hour than doing it in a station, you also get about 33% more goods in the same time. Doesn't take a huge output to make it cost effective in isk/hr. If it's battleships, then it's another matter entirely. And some stations just do everything, which is vary hard to beat. (50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots, 20 invention slots, 20 Material research, 20 time efficiency research)
Let alone the potential to get ripped off by a corp-mate (not even a director) due to the dodgy role system.
This is related to something I've suggested before. Instead of highsec stations having 'generic' manufacturing slots, break them up into various types. So some stations are only good for ammo (stick these near starter systems ) Some can make ships, but have more limited numbers of slots for it.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1195
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation? I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! )
I'd fix it with: SOV owner gets to set who gets to use the space elevator/launchpads to get stuff into orbit. So if you lose sov, you can lose access to the storage FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:45:00 -
[292] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:If only more forum dwellers would stop the damn trolling and idiocy, we could have more productive discussion similar to a few posts in this thread (some trolling even here).
Thank you to those who responded to my questions.
I suspect that the center of the universe (Jita) will remain for the life of the game. I doubt CCP has the ballz to fix the underlying issues. No matter what solution is chosen, some people will not be happy. If you want to understand the situation more fully, consider the existence of other highsec trade hubs. Why are there trade hubs at Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie when Jita is already a one-stop-shop? Why do all these systems have ship kill rates to make many nullsec regions jealous? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Amarrhttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jitahttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Renshttp://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/DodixieIt's because these are systems where players gather and interact. This is player generated content, emergent and beautiful. All happening under and despite the oppressive eye of CONCORD.
Disagree, the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. There is a certain amount of PVP in high-sec that result from War Decs and that activity is more prevalent in systems with more players for simple statistical reasons. Its also a non-linear scale because the more people that are there the greater the possibility of combat which in turn brings more pvp pilots out of the woodwork.
The other trade hubs also aren't true trade hubs, they are distribution points. Its just players being willing to pay for someone to bring the stuff they want closer to them so they don't have to fly as far to shop. As proof; show me any product with a reasonable sales volume that trades at a price below Jita. If it were a trade hub, it would have its own demand based prices not simple markups on Jita prices. Jita likely won't ever change, its also not a bad thing. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I think thats a tough one, I agree with you but at the same time the ability to lose access to one's stuff in Sov held systems is in my opinion a fundemental aspect of why sov matters. Providing storage that isn't based in an outpost makes for a slippery slope. Perhaps allow installation of jobs from an outpost to any POS within the constellation? I don't know how you solve that issue but aside from that you're on to something. Also, the timer on PoSes does make it a little bit more complex than someone just coming along, reinforcing, and then blapping your pos full of BPCs and mats (I hope people aren't putting many BPOs in 0.0 poses! ) I'd fix it with: SOV owner gets to set who gets to use the space elevator/launchpads to get stuff into orbit. So if you lose sov, you can lose access to the storage
I suppose that works, I like your idea of breaking up station manufacturing slots by type. I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 19:55:00 -
[294] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. "Just player density"
Rather my point.
It isn't like CCP said "this system will be the main trade hub, and these other systems will be secondary or tertiary hubs from that".
People got together and bought or sold things all over, gradually converging on a few systems for the majority of trade.
Prices in these systems deviate both ways from Jita, inter-hub trade is a multi-directional thing.
This is something that nullsec lacks.
Simply put, unless there is enough player density to allow for the formation of trade hubs to match even a tertiary highsec trade hub there isn't going to be any incentive for pure-play traders and industrialists to set up shop out there, so the lack of resources is moot.
In fact, there is one change that would make this happen, and suggesting it before is one reason certain people want to downvote me to oblivion (or perhaps just back to Hek):
Mandatory open docking at outposts. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:06:00 -
[295] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Haradgrim wrote:the reason you see PVP in those systems is just player density. "Just player density" Rather my point. It isn't like CCP said "this system will be the main trade hub, and these other systems will be secondary or tertiary hubs from that". People got together and bought or sold things all over, gradually converging on a few systems for the majority of trade. Prices in these systems deviate both ways from Jita, inter-hub trade is a multi-directional thing. This is something that nullsec lacks. Simply put, unless there is enough player density to allow for the formation of trade hubs to match even a tertiary highsec trade hub there isn't going to be any incentive for pure-play traders and industrialists to set up shop out there, so the lack of resources is moot. In fact, there is one change that would make this happen, and suggesting it before is one reason certain people want to downvote me to oblivion (or perhaps just back to Hek): Mandatory open docking at outposts.
My point is that its just a function of geography. If those systems weren't located where they are they wouldn't be as populated. If you added another 500k players to the game, I bet there would be a bunch of additional distribution points. Right now the only reason there aren't more is because its not profitable enough, there aren't enough players willing to pay you a premium so they don't have to go as far as one of the existing hubs (since its impossible to be very far from any of them and still be in high sec) for it to be profitable enough to the playerbase to encurage them to open more. If it weren't just a function of geography then Yulai would never have died..... |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
576
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:08:00 -
[296] - Quote
Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
281
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:08:00 -
[297] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent).
"Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons.
YK
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:09:00 -
[298] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative.
We can't exactly take you seriously and have "informative" discussions when you don't learn from the previous one's. I'd be happy to explain everything to you if I hadn't already done it 5 or so times. One can only bang their head against a wall so many times. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:19:00 -
[299] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo.
Null's not meant to be harder, its meant to require you to be more self sufficient. You should start with less capability than high-sec but be able to build a greater capability. At least thats the intent (I believe). |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:24:00 -
[300] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). "Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons. YK
The logistical difficulty of using POSes in null has more to do with getting raw materials out there (its hard to get trit for instance since mining is dangerous, low income, and it takes up a lot of space) where as in high-sec you can just freighter whatever you need to a pos. Also, null players have to deal with the issue of not always having a station in the same system as their pos which means no safe place to store BPOs, etc.
What is it about POSes that would be an issue for you? Its the concept of having to make an investment and protect it that I'm seeking to encorperate into the high-sec manufacturing cycle. |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1196
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:24:00 -
[301] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). "Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons. YK
You object to 33% higher volumes?
Do you make less than 100k isk/hr per slot?
take a small gallente pos. (picked as the fuel is the most expensive, on the market)
This will cost you 132,000 isk per hour to run, if you're just buying the fuel blocks from the market. (+ 2k or so for charters.)
A Equipment Assembly array has 6 slots on it. You can fit multiple in a single small tower. But for this, we'll assume you're using just the one. (Other arrays have varying numbers of slots. But module production isn't a bad baseline)
So, that means, per hour, you're paying 22,000 isk, per slot. Sure, this is about 67 time higher than what you'd pay in a highsec station, but...
For a time multiplier of 0.75. This equates to a 33% increase in productivity.
So if you're making 100k isk/hr per line in a station, in a POS you'd be making 133k isk/hr.
So you're already making 10% more than you would. After costs. Higher isk/hrs equate to higher benefits (approaching 33% as you reduce the percentage paid)
Stick in another array, and it improves even further.
Sure, you'll have to fly to and from the POS every so often to pick stuff up and drop stuff off. But that's /it/.
You also have to trust your corporation. That needs work.
But manufacturing in POS, in highsec, is a bit of a no-brainer. The downside is being wardecced. But that's when you strip the POS, and turn it into a dickstar. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:26:00 -
[302] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). "Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons. YK You object to 33% higher volumes? Do you make less than 100k isk/hr per slot? take a small gallente pos. (picked as the fuel is the most expensive, on the market) This will cost you 132,000 isk per hour to run, if you're just buying the fuel blocks from the market. (+ 2k or so for charters.) A Equipment Assembly array has 6 slots on it. You can fit multiple in a single small tower. But for this, we'll assume you're using just the one. (Other arrays have varying numbers of slots. But module production isn't a bad baseline) So, that means, per hour, you're paying 22,000 isk, per slot. Sure, this is about 67 time higher than what you'd pay in a highsec station, but... For a time multiplier of 0.75. This equates to a 33% increase in productivity. So if you're making 100k isk/hr per line in a station, in a POS you'd be making 133k isk/hr. So you're already making 10% more than you would. After costs. Higher isk/hrs equate to higher benefits (approaching 33% as you reduce the percentage paid) Stick in another array, and it improves even further. Sure, you'll have to fly to and from the POS every so often to pick stuff up and drop stuff off. But that's /it/. You also have to trust your corporation. That needs work. But manufacturing in POS, in highsec, is a bit of a no-brainer. The downside is being wardecced. But that's when you strip the POS, and turn it into a dickstar.
I like you Steve. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2592
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:30:00 -
[303] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station.
True but they are the equivalent costs. I don't think anyone is arguing that the additional cost of having to conduct industry in null is worth it by comparison to high-sec once you account for everything or that it shouldnt be changed. Just that that change shouldn't be nerfing high-sec.
Paying 1000 times more for 50 times less isn't an equivalent cost. One of the points of revamping nullsec industry is to encourage industrialists willing to take risks out to nullsec. If highsec stays the same then no amount of buffs will encourage people to move when they otherwise would. To make nullsec industry viable even after changes, highsec needs to take a hit. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:30:00 -
[304] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote:I'm starting to think that forcing high-sec industry to POSes would make for a decent compromise that might satisfy all parties (at least to a certain extent). "Decent compromise" isn't quite the phrase I'd use to describe something that wouldn't nerf, but instead end my gameplay entirely. In fact, the most enlightening thing I've garnered from this discussion thus far is that null players don't want to do their own industry in POS's - not because of the inherent risks - (they have POS's anchored now) but because it's a logistical nightmare. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that a highsec player manufacturing items in the space of all 4 races, across multiple regions, would probably be equally put off from using POS's for industry - and ironically for the very same reasons. YK You object to 33% higher volumes? Do you make less than 100k isk/hr per slot? take a small gallente pos. (picked as the fuel is the most expensive, on the market) This will cost you 132,000 isk per hour to run, if you're just buying the fuel blocks from the market. (+ 2k or so for charters.) A Equipment Assembly array has 6 slots on it. You can fit multiple in a single small tower. But for this, we'll assume you're using just the one. (Other arrays have varying numbers of slots. But module production isn't a bad baseline) So, that means, per hour, you're paying 22,000 isk, per slot. Sure, this is about 67 time higher than what you'd pay in a highsec station, but... For a time multiplier of 0.75. This equates to a 33% increase in productivity. So if you're making 100k isk/hr per line in a station, in a POS you'd be making 133k isk/hr. So you're already making 10% more than you would. After costs. Higher isk/hrs equate to higher benefits (approaching 33% as you reduce the percentage paid) Stick in another array, and it improves even further. Sure, you'll have to fly to and from the POS every so often to pick stuff up and drop stuff off. But that's /it/. You also have to trust your corporation. That needs work. But manufacturing in POS, in highsec, is a bit of a no-brainer. The downside is being wardecced. But that's when you strip the POS, and turn it into a dickstar. Not sure how you are working out a cost increase and logistical effort increase to be a benefit. And if it is the benefit you claim why isn't nullsec content with it? |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:30:00 -
[305] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative. We can't exactly take you seriously and have "informative" discussions when you don't learn from the previous one's. I'd be happy to explain everything to you if I hadn't already done it 5 or so times. One can only bang their head against a wall so many times.
My utmost apolgies gentle sir, I apreciate you making the effort 'tall. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:35:00 -
[306] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Haradgrim wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station.
True but they are the equivalent costs. I don't think anyone is arguing that the additional cost of having to conduct industry in null is worth it by comparison to high-sec once you account for everything or that it shouldnt be changed. Just that that change shouldn't be nerfing high-sec. Paying 1000 times more for 50 times less isn't an equivalent cost. One of the points of revamping nullsec industry is to encourage industrialists willing to take risks out to nullsec. If highsec stays the same then no amount of buffs will encourage people to move when they otherwise would. To make nullsec industry viable even after changes, highsec needs to take a hit.
So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I'm not suggesting that's the solution but it took me all of 1 second to come up with a way to manipulate market forces to make 0.0 more profitable than high-sec in a particular market.
Then again, if I was the CFC and I didn't want an entity to come together in high sec (in much the way goons once did) and one day challenge me, nerfing high sec industry would certainly help me out with that. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1196
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:37:00 -
[307] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:*snip* Not sure how you are working out a cost increase and logistical effort increase to be a benefit. And if it is the benefit you claim why isn't nullsec content with it?
Because, for any serious manufacturer, costs are irrelevant.
The only that that /is/ relevant is your isk/hr. Sure, you have to invest extra each month. But your return is substantially higher.
As for the logistical effort, this is high-sec I'm talking about. Where you can get the fuel shipped, by Red Frog, to where ever you need it. And you don't even need make it. Just buy it straight off the market (If you're smart, you'll buy the components and make it yourself, as the isk/hr isn't bad.) Fuelling a tower once ever three weeks is hardly taxing.
Null is substantially harder, as they tend not to have local distribution points (as far as I'm aware). So stuff is shipped out, then back in. That's something that could, perhaps, be worked on, at an alliance level. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:38:00 -
[308] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Not sure how you are working out a cost increase and logistical effort increase to be a benefit. And if it is the benefit you claim why isn't nullsec content with it?
If you don't understand how higher costs but faster turnover can earn you more money then I'm just not sure that anything I'm going to say is going to change your mind.
The reaons its not the same for nullsec is that moving materials around is a lot harder (how do you move 1M m3 of trit in 0.0? JF, thats how, high sec you could have an army of alts on uninsured badgers if it suited your fancy) and not all systems have outposts. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1196
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:40:00 -
[309] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote: So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I don't recommend changes to material efficiency. What I recommend is changes to the time multiplier.
This allows highsec newbs to compete on price, but not volume. So they can get their start, moving out to null when appropriate, without being completely uncompetitive.
Serious manufacturers go by isk per hour. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:42:00 -
[310] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Haradgrim wrote: So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I don't recommend changes to material efficiency. What I recommend is changes to the time multiplier. This allows highsec newbs to compete on price, but not volume. So they can get their start, moving out to null when appropriate, without being completely uncompetitive. Serious manufacturers go by isk per hour.
I was just trying to provide an obvious example.
And serious manufactures go by (Isk per hour) * SVR |
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
281
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:44:00 -
[311] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote: What is it about POSes that would be an issue for you? Its the concept of having to make an investment and protect it that I'm seeking to encorperate into the high-sec manufacturing cycle.
I believe it was stated that having to haul minerals from a station to a POS was problematic and that freighters are slow, cumbersome to navigate, and difficult to maneuver between anchored POS modules. Though it may be safer to mine in high sec, that stated ease consequently and frequently empties systems entirely of ore - forcing folks to mine systems away from their POS at distances that can vary daily. So as far as I can tell, the nightmarish transportation and navigation issues are not sec-specific.
My insurmountable problem is that I operate all over the map, on opposite ends of multiple regions, with plans to continually expand indefinately. Tethering my industrial activites to my research POS (which firstly means I won't be able to do research) would translate to literally hundreds of freighter jumps per week. It is unworkable in any sense and will effectively end my game. My biggest issue with the idea is how limiting it is and the deleterious effect it will have on player fluidity. Everyone will be tethered to some point in space.
It may well be that in null, the absence of security lends itself readily to tethering yourself to a point in space. High sec has no such restriction and people go where they will. In fact, my current game has developed partly from those travels. I'm absolutely positive I'm not the only person who's going to have an issue with this.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:48:00 -
[312] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Not sure how you are working out a cost increase and logistical effort increase to be a benefit. And if it is the benefit you claim why isn't nullsec content with it? If you don't understand how higher costs but faster turnover can earn you more money then I'm just not sure that anything I'm going to say is going to change your mind. The reaons its not the same for nullsec is that moving materials around is a lot harder (how do you move 1M m3 of trit in 0.0? JF, thats how, high sec you could have an army of alts on uninsured badgers if it suited your fancy) and not all systems have outposts. There is some benefit to it but a decrease in margins to counter. Unless your velocity of sales increases on a similar scale to your production capacity, which it likely won't if everyone else is in the same boat producing more with no new demand, you aren't really reaping the benefit. When there is a choice like there is now we have that opportunity. If manufacturing is forced into POS, which was the scenario presented, that's not the case as production time is no longer a comparative benefit.
But that aside he still worked it out to a benefit overall, which means POS vs Outpost production would still have that benefit only putting highsec closer to null in the station/outpost to POS facility ratio. If you want an end result of both being of lower quality with little overall gain and potential exclusion of individuals who for one reason or another aren't in a position to have POS to work with I guess it's the way to go. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 20:52:00 -
[313] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote: What is it about POSes that would be an issue for you? Its the concept of having to make an investment and protect it that I'm seeking to encorperate into the high-sec manufacturing cycle.
I believe it was stated that having to haul minerals from a station to a POS was problematic and that freighters are slow, cumbersome to navigate, and difficult to maneuver between anchored POS modules. Though it may be safer to mine in high sec, that stated ease consequently and frequently empties systems entirely of ore - forcing folks to mine systems away from their POS at distances that can vary daily. So as far as I can tell, the nightmarish transportation and navigation issues are not sec-specific. My insurmountable problem is that I operate all over the map, on opposite ends of multiple regions, with plans to continually expand indefinately. Tethering my industrial activites to my research POS (which firstly means I won't be able to do research) would translate to literally hundreds of freighter jumps per week. It is unworkable in any sense and will effectively end my game. My biggest issue with the idea is how limiting it is and the deleterious effect it will have on player fluidity. Everyone will be tethered to some point in space. It may well be that in null, the absence of security lends itself readily to tethering yourself to a point in space. High sec has no such restriction and people go where they will. In fact, my current game has developed partly from those travels. I'm absolutely positive I'm not the only person who's going to have an issue with this. YK
I apologize if I'm being dense but I still don't really understand, what is to stop you from simply setting up more posses? They aren't very expensive to set up and as long as they are profitable to run they will pay themselves off very quickly. Wouldn't having a network of posses all over the high-sec galaxyy producing and researching wherever you operate be better?
Transporting to a pos is no more difficult than transporting to a station (which you will have to do to manufacture at any volume anyhow). The only real logistical issue is moving materials from your corperate hanger array to the various production modules but that's no more work than organizing your hanger on a station. So that just leaves the logistics of operating a pos, setting it up is a bit of work (but fun IMO) but maintaining it is very little work and a simple hauling alt can be utilizaed to take care of all your poses anywhere in the galaxy if you stagger their schedules. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:00:00 -
[314] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:[Highsec production costs & tax are minuscule compared to what nullsec residents have to pay, on top of that we have other costs that completely trump those & for all that isk spent, we get a tiny portion of the industrial capabilities of 1 highsec station.
So? Comparing is just saying it's tougher for you to have your own empire. We already know this. If you chose to move out to null for its' industry, then that was a poor decision.
Now, if you want to compare null to high in saying that, then use npc null as an example, and you might have something. But null as a whole is definitely in the same boat, regardless if you compare npc or sov null.
For instance... I think npc null should have higher industry levels than sov null, but less than empire highsec. 1 being sansha etc are "pirate" so therefore aren't likely to have the same soort of technological advances in regards to refining and whatnot. Bult ultimately is considered a stronger/more populated force than sov in null by numbers.
Going with that platform, I'd say it would be easier to argue for npc null to get a better equivalent to industry since npc stations (regardless of standings" will still support agents and offices and trades for anyone, regardless of race/corp. Without the harassment from faction polie to boot (which is a bonus above highsec).
So maybe there should be a change, in regards to WHAT you build, concerning the faction of area you are in. ex- Stain npc having a bonus to production of pirate faction items., SOV space located in racial district having bonuses to that as well.
Not as a highsec versus null. We all know the conflict of eve is to create conflict, not dumb it down. So why not look at laterla shifts to get a better bonus/enhancement to the areas instead of comparing?
Otherwise everyone is just acting like the publord they accuse others of being. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
577
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:02:00 -
[315] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo. Null's not meant to be harder, its meant to require you to be more self sufficient. You should start with less capability than high-sec but be able to build a greater capability. At least thats the intent (I believe).
In this case, then the stations shoujd be changed and improved. I would not addvocate multiple stations in a system as this would make sov conquest worse. Still, the amount of slots available should be tied to an upgradeable industrial level. The higher the level, the more of each slot should be available.
For example, at stage one a station should have 10 copy slots, 5 time research, 5 material research, 10 invention or reverse enginering slots, 20 regular manufacturing, 10 booster manufacturing. This would support 3 industrial toons, capable of make 200 t2 mods (approximately) per day. At stage 2, double this to support 6 toons, stage 3, 9 or maybe 12 toons. If a stage is lost, jobs are lost based on random chance.
Additionally, station upgrade mechanics need a major overhaul. From my understanding, upgrade requires making a station vulnerable. This should not be. Still, this is an issue with station mechanics and improving them, not necessarily nul vs hi sec industry. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:02:00 -
[316] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Haradgrim wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Not sure how you are working out a cost increase and logistical effort increase to be a benefit. And if it is the benefit you claim why isn't nullsec content with it? If you don't understand how higher costs but faster turnover can earn you more money then I'm just not sure that anything I'm going to say is going to change your mind. The reaons its not the same for nullsec is that moving materials around is a lot harder (how do you move 1M m3 of trit in 0.0? JF, thats how, high sec you could have an army of alts on uninsured badgers if it suited your fancy) and not all systems have outposts. There is some benefit to it but a decrease in margins to counter. Unless your velocity of sales increases on a similar scale to your production capacity, which it likely won't if everyone else is in the same boat producing more with no new demand, you aren't really reaping the benefit. When there is a choice like there is now we have that opportunity. If manufacturing is forced into POS, which was the scenario presented, that's not the case as production time is no longer a comparative benefit. But that aside he still worked it out to a benefit overall, which means POS vs Outpost production would still have that benefit only putting highsec closer to null in the station/outpost to POS facility ratio. If you want an end result of both being of lower quality with little overall gain and potential exclusion of individuals who for one reason or another aren't in a position to have POS to work with I guess it's the way to go.
In my experience the increase in production always justifies the shrinking of the margin. If the margin was that small in the first place it probably wasn't worth producing outside the POS anyhow. Anyhow I was primarily pointing out that its not accurate to catagorize it as a "cost increase" without allluding to the fact that your are producing a greater amount.
My primary point is that if null sec industrialists are to compete with high-sec industrialists (and I have a hard time believing that even you think they should actually be at a disadvantage as opposed to on an even footing) then something needs to change, either null sec needs to be far more profitable or there needs to be risk and/or greater costs associated with high sec production. Without that the status quo will simply remain. The risk you take with making Null sec more profitable while leaving high sec completely intact is that you risk making null sec too profitable and ruininig the whole concept of scarcity which keeps ISK relevant. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:04:00 -
[317] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Haradgrim wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Isn't part of the inherent risk of nul the lack of industry? Why should those out on the fringe not have to struggle to make industry work as part of the risk they take out there. As it stands, they have a captive market and can generally sell at 15% above jita market. We in hi sec have to struggle to make even 1% over jita in many markets. plus, within 5 minutes of placing an order up in jita, competition has already reduced our profit.
Why should nul (the supposedly harder place to live, but more lucrative) be made easier and less of a logistic hassel just because they feel disadvantaged by the lack of industry? You choose to live in nul, it comes with risks, one of those risks is the increased difficulty of industrial activities. Deal with it. If not, then allow moon mining in all areas of space so hi sec isn't dependant on nul moon goo. Null's not meant to be harder, its meant to require you to be more self sufficient. You should start with less capability than high-sec but be able to build a greater capability. At least thats the intent (I believe). In this case, then the stations shoujd be changed and improved. I would not addvocate multiple stations in a system as this would make sov conquest worse. Still, the amount of slots available should be tied to an upgradeable industrial level. The higher the level, the more of each slot should be available. For example, at stage one a station should have 10 copy slots, 5 time research, 5 material research, 10 invention or reverse enginering slots, 20 regular manufacturing, 10 booster manufacturing. This would support 3 industrial toons, capable of make 200 t2 mods (approximately) per day. At stage 2, double this to support 6 toons, stage 3, 9 or maybe 12 toons. If a stage is lost, jobs are lost based on random chance. Additionally, station upgrade mechanics need a major overhaul. From my understanding, upgrade requires making a station vulnerable. This should not be. Still, this is an issue with station mechanics and improving them, not necessarily nul vs hi sec industry.
Largely I agree, and going back to the point I made in the first post I made in this thread: Sov needs to be fixed before we start rebalancing industry between 0.0 and high sec. CCP, get on that! |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:05:00 -
[318] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:True =(
But then, it seems all the posts from them always degenerate into name calling and trolling to wreck a thread only to have a new one get created so they can complain there's "another".
A shame really. 15% of their members who actually do post here can be informative. We can't exactly take you seriously and have "informative" discussions when you don't learn from the previous one's. I'd be happy to explain everything to you if I hadn't already done it 5 or so times. One can only bang their head against a wall so many times.
I agree, unfortunately, that is also from this side of the coin. You can easily search my posts and see where I am the one that starts the fight. But good luck finding one. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:15:00 -
[319] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote: In my experience the increase in production always justifies the shrinking of the margin. If the margin was that small in the first place it probably wasn't worth producing outside the POS anyhow. Anyhow I was primarily pointing out that its not accurate to catagorize it as a "cost increase" without allluding to the fact that your are producing a greater amount.
My primary point is that if null sec industrialists are to compete with high-sec industrialists (and I have a hard time believing that even you think they should actually be at a disadvantage as opposed to on an even footing) then something needs to change, either null sec needs to be far more profitable or there needs to be risk and/or greater costs associated with high sec production. Without that the status quo will simply remain. The risk you take with making Null sec more profitable while leaving high sec completely intact is that you risk making null sec too profitable and ruininig the whole concept of scarcity which keeps ISK relevant.
My primary point was not seeing how throwing a large portion of serious producers into a higher velocity production environment with similar levels of demand for final products would benefit them. On an individual scale if you accelerate production at a higher unit cost it works because that individual is a small portion of the production community and has an insignificant effect on overall supply. A large scale production shift mandated by a game change on the other hand does have the affect of creating potential oversupplies devaluing individual goods to a point that could lower isk/hr even at increased output velocities.
Personally I'd rather see hourly rates for slots increased and perhaps an efficiency decrease in NPC stations. I think the basic industry mechanic should remain highly accessible but be less cost efficient than properly utilized alternatives. |
Kestrix
Industrial Renaissance MinTek Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:15:00 -
[320] - Quote
Null sec is already better than hi sec for industry. You can build anything in Null. Sure there is risk involved and the logistics (which are not hard) can be annoying at times. The only thing Empire has over Null sec is the trading hubs. |
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
281
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:16:00 -
[321] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote: What is it about POSes that would be an issue for you? Its the concept of having to make an investment and protect it that I'm seeking to encorperate into the high-sec manufacturing cycle.
I believe it was stated that having to haul minerals from a station to a POS was problematic and that freighters are slow, cumbersome to navigate, and difficult to maneuver between anchored POS modules. Though it may be safer to mine in high sec, that stated ease consequently and frequently empties systems entirely of ore - forcing folks to mine systems away from their POS at distances that can vary daily. So as far as I can tell, the nightmarish transportation and navigation issues are not sec-specific. My insurmountable problem is that I operate all over the map, on opposite ends of multiple regions, with plans to continually expand indefinately. Tethering my industrial activites to my research POS (which firstly means I won't be able to do research) would translate to literally hundreds of freighter jumps per week. It is unworkable in any sense and will effectively end my game. My biggest issue with the idea is how limiting it is and the deleterious effect it will have on player fluidity. Everyone will be tethered to some point in space. It may well be that in null, the absence of security lends itself readily to tethering yourself to a point in space. High sec has no such restriction and people go where they will. In fact, my current game has developed partly from those travels. I'm absolutely positive I'm not the only person who's going to have an issue with this. YK I apologize if I'm being dense but I still don't really understand, what is to stop you from simply setting up more posses? They aren't very expensive to set up and as long as they are profitable to run they will pay themselves off very quickly. Wouldn't having a network of posses all over the high-sec galaxyy producing and researching wherever you operate be better? Transporting to a pos is no more difficult than transporting to a station (which you will have to do to manufacture at any volume anyhow). The only real logistical issue is moving materials from your corperate hanger array to the various production modules but that's no more work than organizing your hanger on a station. So that just leaves the logistics of operating a pos, setting it up is a bit of work (but fun IMO) but maintaining it is very little work and a simple hauling alt can be utilizaed to take care of all your poses anywhere in the galaxy if you stagger their schedules.
Well, I guess there's absolutely nothing preventing me from investing billions in new startup costs, spending hundreds of millions more monthly on POS fuel, and using gametime that I now use to make isk freightering my goods from one end of New Eden to the other. Nothing at all. Except for the isk, the increased time requirements, and the fact that freightering goods is my least-favorite activity in the game. Nothing.
Even though nullseccers don't want to do industry in their own POS's, I'm sure I'll learn to love it - despite it adding a massive logistical challenge to my game that is currently not required.
I hope this change rolls out at the same time as null's new superores because it sure sounds super-balanced.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:26:00 -
[322] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I agree, unfortunately, that is also from this side of the coin. You can easily search my posts and see where I am the one that starts the fight. But good luck finding one.
It's not starting a fight its you constantly recycling the same tired crap that 5 other people have already had shot down. Then when yours' gets shot down with the same facts the others were shot down with you get irate and state that you have years of nullsec experience, which is also false, when instead you should be learning from the discourse.
We understand you are against highsec nerfs we would like you to bring a cogent argument. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 21:30:00 -
[323] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Well, I guess there's absolutely nothing preventing me from investing billions in new startup costs, spending hundreds of millions more monthly on POS fuel, and using gametime that I now use to make isk freightering my goods from one end of New Eden to the other. Nothing at all. Except for the isk, the increased time requirements, and the fact that freightering goods is my least-favorite activity in the game. Nothing.
Even though nullseccers don't want to do industry in their own POS's, I'm sure I'll learn to love it - despite it adding a massive logistical challenge to my game that is currently not required.
I hope this change rolls out at the same time as null's new superores because it sure sounds super-balanced.
YK
So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion.
The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reason you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.
I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:13:00 -
[324] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I agree, unfortunately, that is also from this side of the coin. You can easily search my posts and see where I am the one that starts the fight. But good luck finding one. It's not starting a fight its you constantly recycling the same tired crap that 5 other people have already had shot down. Then when yours' gets shot down with the same facts the others were shot down with you get irate and state that you have years of nullsec experience, which is also false, when instead you should be learning from the discourse. We understand you are against highsec nerfs we would like you to bring a cogent argument.
I did and it got summarily ignored to worry about other random publord trashtalking overexplaining elitism.
For instance, your "years of null" or how rather, everyone says "oh you must live in highsec because you dont think or believe the way i do" which is garbage.
Don't for one second think you even care about a discussion. You don't. You want strife and angst in all forms. Otherwise you'd be on subject and wouldn't care, instead of coming to someone else's defense. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1751
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:15:00 -
[325] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Well, I guess there's absolutely nothing preventing me from investing billions in new startup costs, spending hundreds of millions more monthly on POS fuel, and using gametime that I now use to make isk freightering my goods from one end of New Eden to the other. Nothing at all. Except for the isk, the increased time requirements, and the fact that freightering goods is my least-favorite activity in the game. Nothing.
Even though nullseccers don't want to do industry in their own POS's, I'm sure I'll learn to love it - despite it adding a massive logistical challenge to my game that is currently not required.
I hope this change rolls out at the same time as null's new superores because it sure sounds super-balanced.
YK So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion. The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reasons you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before. I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels. Now I my self am all for increasing the cost of NPC facilities to make them slightly more expensive than POS per slot.
And I am aware that Outposts do need the ability of increased industry capabilities, but I do believe the amount of increase Tippia would like to see is frankly too much.
Tippia wrote: If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.
I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time). 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.
Similar to this but a bit less say 50=70% of what you are asking. Excluding the refine which I think is needed in POS and outposts at a base 50%...The other side of Outposts is of course the usage based SoV system but I don't want to get into that atm, as the current proposal is about doing the most good for the least developer resources.
Now POS are a pain in the butt but those willing to take the pain and the capital out lay should be rewarded not punished and outposts cost a hell of a lot more than a POS but have a lot of abilities a POS does not.
But yes a lot of the problems to other systems like the war dec system would be solved as people would actually be taking the risk from war decs, in order to gain a financial advantage.
I hope that makes sense, it has been a long night. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:18:00 -
[326] - Quote
Kestrix wrote:Null sec is already better than hi sec for industry. You can build anything in Null. Sure there is risk involved and the logistics (which are not hard) can be annoying at times. The only thing Empire has over Null sec is the trading hubs.
Yeah, just the trading hubs. CONCORD protection and non-flippable NPC stations with tons of manufacturing AND research slots AND 50% refineries all in one stop aren't an advantage at all. Nor is the fact that these slots cost such a pathetically small amount of isk that calling it a pittance would be making it sound higher than it is. Nope, no advantage there at all, it's just the trade hubs. Thanks for that, guy whose only experience with null is reading some NPC corp shirtlord's GD posts! "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
281
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:22:00 -
[327] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote: So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion.
The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reason you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.
I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels.
And as I've already replied, the logistical challenges of POS manufacturing (transporting minerals to the POS, dividing minerals between various arrays, navigating/maneuvering a slow, cumbersome ship, etc.) are not sec-specific. If nullsec doesn't enjoy the task, it's nuts to suggest that highseccers should.
But "not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it?" What does that even mean? I'm manufacturing now in npc stations usually on site exactly where my goods are sold. Why in the world would I want to operate multiple POS's, increasing my own costs and logistics? Because I sure don't. I fly around in a slicer delivering bpcs. I'm operating at ends of regions just to pipe goods down there to folks who are far from hubs ....because it's harder. A difficult path always has less competition. That and I genuinely know what it felt like when I was in those places for various reasons and couldn't get the basic things I needed on a day to day basis.
I guess I just don't understand why we have skills that allow the setup of station manufacturing jobs remotely, or the ability to buy/sell items remotely if none of that will soon be relevant? Why have players work on building standings with npc corps to achieve perfect refine rates if refining at a POS will be superior? Everything about the current system centers around station manufacturing. For an idea that gets thrown around so casually, the impact of such a change would affect everyone. And in highsec it would affect most folks negatively - new players disprortionately so.
In my specific case, I worked for months to build up my standings with over a dozen npc corps specifically to increase my options in-game. And yet I still run into situations where I'm in a system without a station belonging to one of them. Just two days ago, I spent 6 hours in a cov ops scouting systems because my system and all others within 3-4 jumps were mined out. I'm now 10 jumps from that location. That sort of thing happens all the time. Highsec is dynamic. You adapt and move on. But that only works because I'm not tethered to a point in space. If I had to relocate a POS every time I relocated myself, that's all I'd do.
But just because I'm opposed to my time investment in mechanic grinding being made worthless, opposed to my costs and effort being increased exponentially for the same isk, because I have no desire to be tethered to a single point in space, or my game being made orders of magnitude more complicated, does not have anything to do with being unwilling to work.
Quite the opposite actually.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1751
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:30:00 -
[328] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote: So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion.
The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reason you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.
I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels.
And as I've already replied, the logistical challenges of POS manufacturing (transporting minerals to the POS, dividing minerals between various arrays, navigating/maneuvering a slow, cumbersome ship, etc.) are not sec-specific. If nullsec doesn't enjoy the task, it's nuts to suggest that highseccers should. But "not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it?" What does that even mean? I'm manufacturing now in npc stations usually on site exactly where my goods are sold. Why in the world would I want to operate multiple POS's, increasing my own costs and logistics? Because I sure don't. I fly around in a slicer delivering bpcs. I'm operating at ends of regions just to pipe goods down there to folks who are far from hubs .... because it's harder. A difficult path always has less competition. That and I genuinely know what it felt like when I was in those places for various reasons and couldn't get the basic things I needed on a day to day basis. I guess I just don't understand why we have skills that allow the setup of station manufacturing jobs remotely, or the ability to buy/sell items remotely if none of that will soon be relevant? Why have players work on building standings with npc corps to achieve perfect refine rates if refining at a POS will be superior? Everything about the current system centers around station manufacturing. For an idea that gets thrown around so casually, the impact of such a change would affect everyone. And in highsec it would affect most folks negatively - new players disprortionately so. In my specific case, I worked for months to build up my standings with over a dozen npc corps specifically to increase my options in-game. And yet I still run into situations where I'm in a system without a station belonging to one of them. Just two days ago, I spent 6 hours in a cov ops scouting systems because my system and all others within 3-4 jumps were mined out. I'm now 10 jumps from that location. That sort of thing happens all the time. Highsec is dynamic. You adapt and move on. But that only works because I'm not tethered to a point in space. If I had to relocate a POS every time I relocated myself, that's all I'd do. But just because I'm opposed to my time investment in mechanic grinding being made worthless, opposed to my costs and effort being increased exponentially for the same isk, because I have no desire to be tethered to a single point in space, or my game being made orders of magnitude more complicated, does not have anything to do with being unwilling to work. Quite the opposite actually. YK Ok because has been stated before the NPC facilities would cost slightly more and with a maxed out refining skills and an implant as well as your NPC standings you would be able to mitigate the risk involved in production.
So your reward from your NPC standings and higher skills is a mitigation of risk.
But you know all this as you have used this same argument before and it has been shot down in flames.
Ok you want to fly all over the universe and mine in different areas but do not want to operate multiple POS's, so don't, you will miss out on a very small amount of profit while still retaining almost no risk. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Dave Stark
1908
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:34:00 -
[329] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:50% refineries all in one stop aren't an advantage at all.
2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
baltec1
Bat Country
5508
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:43:00 -
[330] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Because, for any serious manufacturer, costs are irrelevant.
What...
More costs = less profits, what in the world makes you think more costs is a good thing? You honestly think we think costs are irrelevant in any of our choices?
Even your own mad workings out show high sec is the only logical choice. |
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Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
282
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:51:00 -
[331] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:some stuff that I disagree with
If anyone at all thinks that the quality of my gameplay will not be decreased by necessitating flying around in a freighter carrying fuel blocks instead of a slicer carrying bpcs, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3158
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 22:52:00 -
[332] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Arcosian wrote: People claim that manufacturing with POS is the way to go in null but it's too risky. This is due to POS roles severely lacking when it comes to securing who can start/cancel jobs, not to mention only corp members can access those slots. For null to be "fixed" indy wise it needs to have a basic infrastructure like high does now where anyone can use it. But there will always be some dependence on high for empire materials like data cores/faction mods. This leads into my next point of JF
This. This is one of the major issues with making stuff. In high, you can start jobs and they're perfectly safe from your fellow corp members. Being able to launch a POS that /only/ you can access. Or part of a POS that is just yours, that will help a lot. And it'd help with removing one of the reasons for people to have single player corps (can't trust people with your resources)
A simple option here is to fix roles so anyone can cancel jobs that they start, without requiring the rights to cancel any job started by anyone. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:01:00 -
[333] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage.
The "in one stop" was the important part of that sentence. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3505
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:09:00 -
[334] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Dave Stark wrote:2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage. The "in one stop" was the important part of that sentence. Since people always argue about "protecting" the highsec "newbies", remember "we" have industrial newbies as well. Granted, they would just look like highsec industrial newbies, since highsec is the Promised Land for things like industry and mining nowadays. I am a nullsec zealot. |
GreenSeed
234
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:12:00 -
[335] - Quote
reading this thread i cant help to think of that CCP post saying that whoever is in charge of allocating resources asked "what should we do next?" to which some CCP devs answered "POSes should be revamped next", this lead designer then asked this small group of devs "can you tell me what would this do for the game besides being cool?" and that team couldn't come up with an answer.
pos revamp, outpost revamp, and industry revamp is THE most needed thing on this game. doing anything BUT this is postponing the inevitable for another year.
forget nerfing highsec, or buffing this and that, or even updating SOV mechanics. updating manufacturing processes, production chains, invention and research mechanics will have a blanket effect in all areas of EVE online, it will get people out of highsec, if only to set up a pos and dig themselves inside it.
pretty much all complaints can be traced back to unprofitably, or the fact that manufacturing anywhere but highsec has a skewed risk/reward ratio... and its not even a clear risk/reward thing, its more like risk+hassle+commitment/reward. revamping POSes needs to at least get rid of the hassle.
the way i see it, "bitter vets" need to bite the bullet and let at least one development cycle be used to update mechanics that have never received an update!
its not just POSes and manufacturing, its also Corp roles, corp ownership of ships and modules, corp accounting, fleet management, market mechanics, contract system. all this things have NEVER been revisited. once you have this updated/fixed then you can start talking about adding more minerals into nullsec to see if then people start producing... as it is now people don't produce because it requires many times more time, risk, and investment to do much of anything in null.
just think of how much easy it would be to run an alliance/corporation manufacturing division if corp owned ships and modules could be introduced. anyone who has had to spend 6hrs straight setting up corp contracts and then monitor who's taking what from where and how many, knows the process as it is now is a nightmare... add to that the pain of managing the production made by many individuals or corporations...
people who never stepped into null always say things like "why don't you guys try to do industry in null?", well that's why. in high sec its easy to organize production, because there's a market. any attempt at production in null hits a brick wall, when allocating rewards to producers and getting the goods to the hands of the consumers has to be done manually by the alliance and cant be left in the hands of "the market". |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:29:00 -
[336] - Quote
^ I agree that POS's should be the priority for CCP. New structures could be the answer to the industry problem... Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2595
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:32:00 -
[337] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I'm not suggesting that's the solution but it took me all of 1 second to come up with a way to manipulate market forces to make 0.0 more profitable than high-sec in a particular market.
Then again, if I was the CFC and I didn't want an entity to come together in high sec (in much the way goons once did) and one day challenge me, nerfing high sec industry would certainly help me out with that.
The only way to make production costs fall below the high-sec minimum production costs with your idea is to make nullsec station & POS upkeep costs on par with highsec station costs. In other words, make it virtually free. Your 1 second solution would only reduce the material costs associated with production, people would still build stuff in highsec because it would always be cheaper regardless. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:45:00 -
[338] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Haradgrim wrote:So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I'm not suggesting that's the solution but it took me all of 1 second to come up with a way to manipulate market forces to make 0.0 more profitable than high-sec in a particular market.
Then again, if I was the CFC and I didn't want an entity to come together in high sec (in much the way goons once did) and one day challenge me, nerfing high sec industry would certainly help me out with that. The only way to make production costs fall below the high-sec minimum production costs with your idea is to make nullsec station & POS upkeep costs on par with highsec station costs. In other words, make it virtually free. Your 1 second solution would only reduce the material costs associated with production, people would still build stuff in highsec because it would always be cheaper regardless.
Not at all, I'm suggesting that a reduction in the material requirements offset the station and pos upkeep costs perhaps even to the point where the end product could be sold below the high sec production cost, perhaps that number is greater than a 25% reduction, I don't know I haven't done the math but that is easy enough to calculate. That makes it possible, I'm not suggesting its the most desireable alternative. |
Haradgrim
Zenmak Manufacturing and Associates
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:53:00 -
[339] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Haradgrim wrote: So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion.
The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reason you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.
I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels.
And as I've already replied, the logistical challenges of POS manufacturing (transporting minerals to the POS, dividing minerals between various arrays, navigating/maneuvering a slow, cumbersome ship, etc.) are not sec-specific. If nullsec doesn't enjoy the task, it's nuts to suggest that highseccers should. But "not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it?" What does that even mean? I'm manufacturing now in npc stations usually on site exactly where my goods are sold. Why in the world would I want to operate multiple POS's, increasing my own costs and logistics? Because I sure don't. I fly around in a slicer delivering bpcs. I'm operating at ends of regions just to pipe goods down there to folks who are far from hubs .... because it's harder. A difficult path always has less competition. That and I genuinely know what it felt like when I was in those places for various reasons and couldn't get the basic things I needed on a day to day basis. I guess I just don't understand why we have skills that allow the setup of station manufacturing jobs remotely, or the ability to buy/sell items remotely if none of that will soon be relevant? Why have players work on building standings with npc corps to achieve perfect refine rates if refining at a POS will be superior? Everything about the current system centers around station manufacturing. For an idea that gets thrown around so casually, the impact of such a change would affect everyone. And in highsec it would affect most folks negatively - new players disprortionately so. In my specific case, I worked for months to build up my standings with over a dozen npc corps specifically to increase my options in-game. And yet I still run into situations where I'm in a system without a station belonging to one of them. Just two days ago, I spent 6 hours in a cov ops scouting systems because my system and all others within 3-4 jumps were mined out. I'm now 10 jumps from that location. That sort of thing happens all the time. Highsec is dynamic. You adapt and move on. But that only works because I'm not tethered to a point in space. If I had to relocate a POS every time I relocated myself, that's all I'd do. But just because I'm opposed to my time investment in mechanic grinding being made worthless, opposed to my costs and effort being increased exponentially for the same isk, because I have no desire to be tethered to a single point in space, or my game being made orders of magnitude more complicated, does not have anything to do with being unwilling to work. Quite the opposite actually. YK
I'm going to point out once again that the reasons that null sec players consider poses a logistical challenge isn't for the same reason as high sec players. Fueling a pos is not a logistical challenge. Fueling a pos while your system is being camped by 200 hostiles with a cap fleet on call is.
I realize you have a highly specialized manufacturing model but I have to believe you would be making more money with access to cheaper or more readily available minerals/materials even if you had to pay someone to ship your goods (if you didn't want to). I'm not going to be able to convince you if you believe that any departure from your current playstyle destroys your "quality of life." |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4145
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:54:00 -
[340] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Except then you cause problems with sov, because currently a system outpost has to be captured before the system itself can be captured. How would this work with multiple outposts? Would we have to grind through every outpost in a system before it could be captured? Sounds like less risk, not more.
Kitty Bear wrote:But if all you want is for it be handed to you, gift-wrapped, on a silver platter CCP need do nothing, as you can easily and quickly just move to hisec where you need make no effort to engage in mostly unresricted industrial activities. Well I guess it's good that I don't want it to be handed to me on a silver platter, and you have absolutely no excuse for accusing me of such because I've repeatedly stated I want MORE conflict drivers. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 23:56:00 -
[341] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Haradgrim wrote:So what your saying is that if (as an arbitrary example) every POS factory slot had a +25% Material Efficiency bonus when operated in null sec, there wouldn't be sufficient motivation to move T1 production out to 0.0? And that once prices fell below the high-sec minimum production cost level there would be anyone doing otherwise?
I'm not suggesting that's the solution but it took me all of 1 second to come up with a way to manipulate market forces to make 0.0 more profitable than high-sec in a particular market.
Then again, if I was the CFC and I didn't want an entity to come together in high sec (in much the way goons once did) and one day challenge me, nerfing high sec industry would certainly help me out with that. The only way to make production costs fall below the high-sec minimum production costs with your idea is to make nullsec station & POS upkeep costs on par with highsec station costs. In other words, make it virtually free. Your 1 second solution would only reduce the material costs associated with production, people would still build stuff in highsec because it would always be cheaper regardless. Not at all, I'm suggesting that a reduction in the material requirements offset the station and pos upkeep costs perhaps even to the point where the end product could be sold below the high sec production cost, perhaps that number is greater than a 25% reduction, I don't know I haven't done the math but that is easy enough to calculate. That makes it possible, I'm not suggesting its the most desireable alternative. Adding to this, material cost differences have the added advantage of affecting logistics as well causing comparatively reduced material movement in null for the same end product in high. Not to say it's the total solution but could be a good component of it. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3159
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:02:00 -
[342] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:[sarcasm]CONCORD protection and non-flippable NPC stations with tons of manufacturing AND research slots AND 50% refineries all in one stop aren't an advantage at all. Nor is the fact that these slots cost such a pathetically small amount of isk that calling it a pittance would be making it sound higher than it is. Nope, no advantage there at all, it's just the trade hubs. Thanks for that, guy whose only experience with null is reading some NPC corp shirtlord's GD posts![/sarcasm]
Right there with you =)
Here's one step I would like CCP to take to rectify the situation: convert all refineries and reprocessing plants into activity lines, just like manufacturing lines. These activity lines will have stats such as "volume per hour" and "refining efficiency". These stats would be altered for different stations: Mining corporations' mineral repository stations might have 30% efficient refineries with millions of cubic metres per hour throughput (i.e.: geared to miners with standings and skills and implants). Assembly plant and logistics stations might have 50% efficient refineries with tens of thousands of cubic metres per hour capacity.
Step two would be to adjust all POS refineries to work the same way (and of course remove the pointless 75% cap on efficiency). Thus you might have a refinery structure at the POS which hosts four activity lines, each of which is a 30% efficient refinery/reprocessor with a million cubic metres per hour throughput, but that structure takes most of the CPU and PG of a large tower. A smaller structure might have 1 similar line, or four 50% efficient lines capable of handling a thousand cubic metres per hour. I suspect a lot of the code behind POSes is tied to a "tick" of about an hour (the same way a space combat grid has a minimum resolution of 1 second). This doesn't need to be changed: a one hour turnaround time for POS refineries is fine, as long as they can be made 100% efficient using skills and implants, and I can refine dense veldspar at the same time as regular veldspar, or reprocess a whole grab bag of modules in the one run.
Step three would be to reevaluate the need for dozens of stations in system (why are there so many stations in Kusomonmon?).
Step four would be having NPC rates for activity lines dynamically adjusted based on utilisation. As utilisation exceeds 80%, increase the price of the lines by about 1% a day for new jobs. As utilisation drops below 50%, reduce the price by about 1% a day. Perhaps the percentages and timeframes would change, perhaps an entirely different model would be required: the essential outcome is that NPC rates rise in order to push industry out to player owned facilities.
Step five would be adjusting the number of NPC activity lines downwards, removing refineries or assembly lines from administrative stations (make offices in those stations cheaper, perhaps), and allowing specialisation such that stations with R&D agents will have research labs (but no other activity lines), stations listed as "Assembly plants" will have assembly lines (and perhaps a low volume reprocessing plant).
The NPC facilities should be available in order to allow for a "reboot from scratch" scenario, i.e.: a large number of users leave the game, industry falls into chaos, new players or players new to industry pick up the reins with NPC-provided activity lines, moving to their own POSes when NPC lines become too expensive. The idea being that industry should be player-run all the way from resource gathering through to final sale. NPC facilities should only be a disaster recovery plan for CCP, not a staple for industrialists.
PS: in this writing, the difference between "refinery" and "reprocessing plant" is semantic, not technical. A refinery is simply an activity line that can process large volumes of material at a low efficiency (boosted by the character's refining, scrap metal processing and specialist ore processing skills, and implants), while a reprocessing plant can handle small volumes at a higher efficiency. In the case of a POS structure, higher volume capacity means more PG, higher efficiency means more CPU.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3159
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:06:00 -
[343] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Well, I guess there's absolutely nothing preventing me from investing billions in new startup costs, spending hundreds of millions more monthly on POS fuel, and using gametime that I now use to make isk freightering my goods from one end of New Eden to the other. Nothing at all. Except for the isk, the increased time requirements, and the fact that freightering goods is my least-favorite activity in the game. Nothing.
You can contract out the couriering of items from one end of the galaxy to the other. You know that. The only extra logistics required is loading up your freighter, industrial or orca with enough fuel to fill the fuel bay of the local POS, using fuel blocks that you've acquired at the local/nearest station.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:19:00 -
[344] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: I did and it got summarily ignored to worry about other random publord trashtalking overexplaining elitism.
For instance, your "years of null" or how rather, everyone says "oh you must live in highsec because you dont think or believe the way i do" which is garbage.
Don't for one second think you even care about a discussion. You don't. You want strife and angst in all forms. Otherwise you'd be on subject and wouldn't care, instead of coming to someone else's defense. Because my ideas do not get shot down.
They don't even get addressed!
Tell me again why you think entitlement should come to you just because you spent more money investing in something you already know to be broken!
See this post here is an explicit reason why you aren't taken seriously. You also got the bolded part one, there was no cogent argument. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2596
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:21:00 -
[345] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote:Not at all, I'm suggesting that a reduction in the material requirements offset the station and pos upkeep costs perhaps even to the point where the end product could be sold below the high sec production cost, perhaps that number is greater than a 25% reduction, I don't know I haven't done the math but that is easy enough to calculate. That makes it possible, I'm not suggesting its the most desireable alternative.
If you do the math, you will realise why it won't work. People seem to be under the impression that outposts are no different from NPC stations. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
282
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:46:00 -
[346] - Quote
Haradgrim wrote: The logistical difficulty of using POSes in null has more to do with getting raw materials out there (its hard to get trit for instance since mining is dangerous, low income, and it takes up a lot of space) where as in high-sec you can just freighter whatever you need to a pos.
Notorious Fellon wrote: "What makes [POS manufacturing] so painful?"
La Nariz wrote: "It is a long list but to start, the UI, the maintenance of the POS, and the logistics involved."
Tippia wrote: "In a POS, you have to take all those modules to the station (hopefully in the same system); rclickGåÆrecycle there, because if you do it in the POS it'll be ready by the time the dinosaurs have re-evolved from canaries; cart all those minerals in fiftyeleven freighter runs (have you tried manoeuvring a freighter inside a tightly packed POS, btw?) to the POS; at the POS, you must know where everything goes because you have different arrays for different products and each of them have limited storage capacity; and if you want to manufacture something else, you have to go to the POS and rearrange materials between arrays (and hope to god they're close enough or you'll have to break out the freighter again)"
Yonis Kador wrote: I believe it was stated that having to haul minerals from a station to a POS was problematic and that freighters are slow, cumbersome to navigate, and difficult to maneuver between anchored POS modules. Though it may be safer to mine in high sec, that stated ease consequently and frequently empties systems entirely of ore - forcing folks to mine systems away from their POS at distances that can vary daily. So as far as I can tell, the nightmarish transportation and navigation issues are not sec-specific.
Haradgrim wrote: The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reasons you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.
Yonis Kador wrote: And as I've already replied, the logistical challenges of POS manufacturing (transporting minerals to the POS, dividing minerals between various arrays, navigating/maneuvering a slow, cumbersome ship, etc.) are not sec-specific. If nullsec doesn't enjoy the task, it's nuts to suggest that highseccers should.
Haradgrim wrote: I'm going to point out once again that the reasons that null sec players consider poses a logistical challenge isn't for the same reason as high sec players. Fueling a pos is not a logistical challenge.
Is this the point where I write again that the issues with POS manufacturing listed in this topic by other posters: maintaining/fueling multiple POS's, navigating in a freighter, multiple trips between a refining station and a POS, and maneuvering a freighter inside anchored POS modules aren't sec-specific activities? Those activities must suck everywhere. Or do I just throw my hands in the air and give up? lol I realize there are differences with risk but the similarities in why POS manufacturing isn't enjoyable (as stated in this topic) seem pretty universal for everyone. "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3907
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:48:00 -
[347] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Dave Stark wrote:2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage. The "in one stop" was the important part of that sentence. Since people always argue about "protecting" the highsec "newbies", remember "we" have industrial newbies as well. Granted, they would just look like highsec industrial newbies, since highsec is the Promised Land for things like industry and mining nowadays.
Newbies who want to go null sec should have appropriate pirate-faction facilities available at something the most similar to hi sec. Something like a special wormhole they can enter when they have just created their character. The interior of that WH would be hi sec and they can learn the ropes like the hi sec "cousins", then they can leave that WH and be at the fringes of a NPC nullsec area. They can go back for say 1 week tops then the WH can't be entered any more (else older people would exploit the WH providing high sec like crazy). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4146
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 00:51:00 -
[348] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Dave Stark wrote:2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage. The "in one stop" was the important part of that sentence. Since people always argue about "protecting" the highsec "newbies", remember "we" have industrial newbies as well. Granted, they would just look like highsec industrial newbies, since highsec is the Promised Land for things like industry and mining nowadays. Newbies who want to go null sec should have appropriate pirate-faction facilities available at something the most similar to hi sec. Something like a special wormhole they can enter when they have just created their character. The interior of that WH would be hi sec and they can learn the ropes like the hi sec "cousins", then they can leave that WH and be at the fringes of a NPC nullsec area. They can go back for say 1 week tops then the WH can't be entered any more (else older people would exploit the WH providing high sec like crazy). What the hell? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1752
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:00:00 -
[349] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Frying Doom wrote:some stuff that I disagree with If anyone at all thinks that the quality of my gameplay will not be decreased by necessitating flying around in a freighter carrying fuel blocks instead of a slicer carrying bpcs, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. YK Again if you don't want to use a POS no one is trying to force you... We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
282
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:05:00 -
[350] - Quote
Right. As an industrialist competing for ever-decreasing profit margins, raising the cost of using station manufacturing slots and decreasing station refining yield has been proposed in conjuction with better refining/manufacturing at high-sec POS's. Skills trained to start manufacturing jobs remotely and standings with npc corps would be irrelevant.
Any industrialist with common sense and basic math skills will recognize there is no choice if this is done.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1752
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:11:00 -
[351] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Dave Stark wrote:2% refining implant, and a 40% station [i think it was a 40% station i was using...] will still give you lossless refining on any ores you can use t2 crystals for. so 50% refining stations aren't really an advantage. The "in one stop" was the important part of that sentence. Since people always argue about "protecting" the highsec "newbies", remember "we" have industrial newbies as well. Granted, they would just look like highsec industrial newbies, since highsec is the Promised Land for things like industry and mining nowadays. Newbies who want to go null sec should have appropriate pirate-faction facilities available at something the most similar to hi sec. Something like a special wormhole they can enter when they have just created their character. The interior of that WH would be hi sec and they can learn the ropes like the hi sec "cousins", then they can leave that WH and be at the fringes of a NPC nullsec area. They can go back for say 1 week tops then the WH can't be entered any more (else older people would exploit the WH providing high sec like crazy). So just like portals in WoW.
So any other WoW like changes you would like to propose? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1752
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:20:00 -
[352] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Right. As an industrialist competing for ever-decreasing profit margins, raising the cost of using station manufacturing slots and decreasing station refining yield has been proposed in conjuction with better refining/manufacturing at high-sec POS's. Skills trained to start manufacturing jobs remotely and standings with npc corps would be irrelevant.
Any industrialist with common sense and basic math skills will recognize there is no choice if this is done.
YK Ok lets try to spell this out for you
Profit margins are decreasing because it is too cheap to just decide to build something, so a lot of people are and always have built without working out the profit or the ever popular "Minerals are free"
Again the refining yield will still be 100% you just need an implant and higher skills this is your trade off so you don't have to risk any thing.
As to Hi-sec POSs yes they would have slightly cheaper manufacturing as they are out laying capital and taking risks to earn their isk.
As to "Skills trained to start manufacturing jobs remotely and standings with npc corps would be irrelevant." Why?
You are gaining the reward of reduced risk by using an NPC facility while POS users are gaining the reward of isk for taking risks.
It very much seems to me that you are so risk adverse that you will argue forever, over your right to make risk free isk, killing off the ability for anyone who wants more out of industry and at the same time putting your self above all of the other regions of EvE.
So let me make this one real easy for you....Those who risk more should get more...No one works on an off shore oil rig for $50 a month. Nor should someone who builds their own manufacturing plant earn less than someone who uses someone elses almost for free. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3159
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:34:00 -
[353] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Is this the point where I write again that the issues with POS manufacturing listed in this topic by other posters: maintaining/fueling multiple POS's, navigating in a freighter, multiple trips between a refining station and a POS, and maneuvering a freighter inside anchored POS modules aren't sec-specific activities? Those activities must suck everywhere. Or do I just throw my hands in the air and give up? lol I realize there are differences with risk but the similarities in why POS manufacturing isn't enjoyable (as stated in this topic) seem pretty universal for everyone.
What if all those activity lines could link to a POS hangar array? That is, you would only need to dump all the raw materials in the hangar, then set up a resource routing to shove the appropriate number of material X into assembly array Y, and it would all sort itself out? Or in other words, have POSes work just like PI.
What if POS refineries could be just as effective as station refineries? Would that reduce round-trip times? One single-line refinery that can take all the raw materials (Arkonor, Bistot, 425mm railgun I) and dump the output into the POS hangar array, ready for the minerals to be fed into the assembly lines.
Heck, what if you could dump fuel into that hangar array too, and have it dribbled into the POS fuel bay as required?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1753
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:41:00 -
[354] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So let me make this one real easy for you....Those who risk more should get more...No one works on an off shore oil rig for $50 a month. Nor should someone who builds their own manufacturing plant earn less than someone who uses someone elses almost for free. What if all facets of industry were easier at a POS than using NPC facilities? What if there were no NPC stations with both refineries and assembly lines? What if POSes could use PI-style processing lines, would that be a benefit to the industrialist? Now you have come to the largest part of the issue, now things can always get better in this game and POSs being easier to use would be great, removing refine from stations no I would not like that just the lowering of the refine rates. As to the production well just made a little better would be helpful
But all these things use a lot of dev resources, resources we will likely never see. That is why I prefer things that will give the maximum benefit with a few resources as possible. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13107
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:41:00 -
[355] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:And I am aware that Outposts do need the ability of increased industry capabilities, but I do believe the amount of increase Tippia would like to see is frankly too much.
[GǪ]
Similar to this but a bit less say 50=70% of what you are asking. They really aren't. Those numbers were quite carefully picked to make a maxed out industry system be exactly as good as the best highsec industry systems. No more, no less.
So that's just what's needed to be on par, slot-wise. It does not account for any of the other benefits highsec has. If anything, those numbers could be 50-70% higher if we want to move null into some actual GÇ£betterGÇ¥-territory.
Those are the bare minimums, not something that needs to be reduced by 30GÇô50%. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3908
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:46:00 -
[356] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: So just like portals in WoW.
So any other WoW like changes you would like to propose?
What's a portal in WoW? You seem to have experience with that game, I don't. Last time I have seen that thing, was when it was worth playing. That is the first months it existed. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1754
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:46:00 -
[357] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frying Doom wrote:And I am aware that Outposts do need the ability of increased industry capabilities, but I do believe the amount of increase Tippia would like to see is frankly too much.
[GǪ]
Similar to this but a bit less say 50=70% of what you are asking. They really aren't. Those numbers were quite carefully picked to make a maxed out industry system be exactly as good as the best highsec industry systems. No more, no less. So that's just what's needed to be on par, slot-wise. It does not account for any of the other benefits highsec has. If anything, those numbers could be 50-70% higher if we want to move null into some actual GÇ£betterGÇ¥-territory. Quite possibly and I can see the argument for it and to be honest I have little experience with Outposts but having said that it is more the difference it would make between sov and non Sov, dangerous areas, that concerns me as outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1754
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:50:00 -
[358] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: So just like portals in WoW.
So any other WoW like changes you would like to propose?
What's a portal in WoW? You seem to have experience with that game, I don't. Yes I do, having played most of the popular MMOs for years all the way back to text MUDS in the 80's.
So that concerns me more as you are obviously unfamiliar with other MMOs, specifically the worlds most famous and the one with the highest subscriber level.
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2601
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:52:00 -
[359] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts
This will be important for the next quote.
Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them.
That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3517
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:55:00 -
[360] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. The NPC outposts have the best "bonuses" then? So er, I guess players shouldn't be building their own infrastructure....
Oh right, HIGHSEC is the place to be, the NPCs have the infrastructure all ready for you ! I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
813
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:58:00 -
[361] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. The NPC outposts have the best "bonuses" then? So er, I guess players shouldn't be building their own infrastructure.... Oh right, HIGHSEC is the place to be, the NPCs have the infrastructure all ready for you !
That infrastructure is just asking for a DBRB fleet to come cruising through. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
282
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:58:00 -
[362] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: more stuff I disagree with
FM, so far you've called me risk averse in this topic and lazy in another for expressing my opinions. Neither is accurate. And I own a POS. I don't own a dozen of them and do not have POS's stationed across known space. Which is never going to happen.
You again write that boosting manufacturing returns at a high sec POS is some kind of reward for owning one despite countless examples of why tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not beneficial. (Stop doing me favors!) It would be a logistical nightmare for the same exact reasons cited in this topic explaining why it's a nightmare for null players.
Debating whether everything I've invested into my gameplay for the past 14 months is going to be made pointless does frustrate me as the consequences are potentially game-changing to an unacceptable degree. But I play this game because its fun. Piloting a freighter isn't. In fact, it's my least-favorite activity in the game. So tieing my least-favorite activity in the game to my primary source of income isn't something I'm ever going to be a vocal supporter of. How dumb would that be? This change would at best, make my game vastly less enjoyable and at worst end it entirely.
So until the black day comes to pass ushering in changes which ruin my game, I'm going to be a vocal opponent.
For me, there is no other option.
It's not personal. So if my opposition offends anyone, I apologize in advance.
YK
"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3909
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:01:00 -
[363] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: So just like portals in WoW.
So any other WoW like changes you would like to propose?
What's a portal in WoW? You seem to have experience with that game, I don't. Yes I do, having played most of the popular MMOs for years all the way back to text MUDS in the 80's. So that concerns me more as you are obviously unfamiliar with other MMOs, specifically the worlds most famous and the one with the highest subscriber level.
I also have started with MUDs and have played a lot of MMOs. I just bailed out of those that sucked balls, Post-vanilla WoW being one of them.
I played mostly PvP MMOs. Where there's no crap like hi sec, nor self inflicted paper wounds like living at a POS in null sec or WH (which I had both to do). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
474
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:07:00 -
[364] - Quote
Given the risk vs reward relationship the order should be WH industry > Low Industry > Null=Hi industry.
But my guess is CCP will keep things the way they are. Why not? It seems the formula is working. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
341
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:08:00 -
[365] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. The NPC outposts have the best "bonuses" then? So er, I guess players shouldn't be building their own infrastructure.... Oh right, HIGHSEC is the place to be, the NPCs have the infrastructure all ready for you !
What if we put stations in sov null with docking right and service usage limited only to the aliance holding SOV in the system it is in?
I realise it's a huge middle finger to the whole idea of building your own base and stuff but isn't that all considered a huge pain in the ass anyway? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3518
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:11:00 -
[366] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. The NPC outposts have the best "bonuses" then? So er, I guess players shouldn't be building their own infrastructure.... Oh right, HIGHSEC is the place to be, the NPCs have the infrastructure all ready for you ! What if we put stations in sov null with docking right and service usage limited only to the aliance holding SOV in the system it is in? I realise it's a huge middle finger to the whole idea of building your own base and stuff but isn't that all considered a huge pain in the ass anyway? It's basically what happens when you put down an outpost. You can't get rid of it, the big thing is only you can spend a TONt o upgrade it to be not-as-good-as-highsec. And your enemy can take it and lock you out, I think they can shoot the services stuff as well if the station is vulnerable.
It also means two timers to consider when trying to grind sov. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1197
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:16:00 -
[367] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:
Because, for any serious manufacturer, costs are irrelevant.
What... More costs = less profits, what in the world makes you think more costs is a good thing? You honestly think we think costs are irrelevant in any of our choices? Even your own mad workings out show high sec is the only logical choice.
Not quite.
I can make X produce for Y cost.
I can make 3X product for 2Y cost.
The actual cost isn't relevant, as long as it's within my means. Because the profit is higher.
I'll admit, it wasn't well worded. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4147
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:17:00 -
[368] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Given the risk vs reward relationship the order should be WH industry > Low Industry > Null=Hi industry.
But my guess is CCP will keep things the way they are. Why not? It seems the formula is working. No, it isn't.
However bridging off your idea, I like the idea of making WH space the most optimal place for T3 production. A lot of POS changes would have to happen to make that possible, though. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3520
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:19:00 -
[369] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Nexus Day wrote:Given the risk vs reward relationship the order should be WH industry > Low Industry > Null=Hi industry.
But my guess is CCP will keep things the way they are. Why not? It seems the formula is working. No, it isn't. It is, you're a nullsec zealot, your "opinion" is worthless here on GENERAL DISCUSSION. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2604
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:22:00 -
[370] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Given the risk vs reward relationship the order should be WH industry > Low Industry > Null=Hi industry.
But my guess is CCP will keep things the way they are. Why not? It seems the formula is working. Wormholes weren't intended to be occupied long term (CCP actually said this). Lowsec industry is fairly on par with highsec, but people pretty much only build carriers, dreads & rorquals out there. Null is only as safe as it's residents make it through effort expended & was intended to be occupied long term. Saying that null industry shouldn't be a priority because it can be as safe as highsec is silly.
However, a POS revamp (particularly the awesome modular POS ideas) would benefit WH residents a lot aswell & this is what nullsec residents have been asking for. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
341
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:22:00 -
[371] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:What if we put stations in sov null with docking right and service usage limited only to the aliance holding SOV in the system it is in?
I realise it's a huge middle finger to the whole idea of building your own base and stuff but isn't that all considered a huge pain in the ass anyway? It's basically what happens when you put down an outpost. You can't get rid of it, the big thing is only you can spend a TON to upgrade it to be not-as-good-as-highsec. And your enemy can take it and lock you out, I think they can shoot the services stuff as well if the station is vulnerable. It also means two timers to consider when trying to grind sov.
All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
814
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:24:00 -
[372] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: It is, you're a nullsec zealot, your "opinion" is worthless here on GENERAL DISCUSSION.
MY POSTS FOR NULLSEC! This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2604
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:24:00 -
[373] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all...
This guy gets it. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3520
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:31:00 -
[374] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... This guy gets it. No, it looks even worse when you're here and there's bitches trying to catch your jump freighter (a good JF pilot is of course "riskless" rite~) and you have to freighter stuff around in nullsec (minerals, parts, ships) again, with people camping your gates or JBs.
So yes, Jita it is. Buy, then just one run of JF, done. Drop in VFK where people will get caught in a bubble warping to the station and killed by Black Legion/NC./TerriblePubbies. while trying to buy it. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
342
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:48:00 -
[375] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... This guy gets it.
On the bright side, maybe I can make "I went to null sec and all I got is this lousy lossmail" t-shirts and sell them. Then I would get more than my efforts worth in reward. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
342
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:50:00 -
[376] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... This guy gets it. No, it looks even worse when you're here and there's bitches trying to catch your jump freighter (a good JF pilot is of course "riskless" rite~) and you have to freighter stuff around in nullsec (minerals, parts, ships) again, with people camping your gates or JBs. So yes, Jita it is. Buy, then just one run of JF, done. Drop in VFK where people will get caught in a bubble warping to the station and killed by Black Legion/NC./TerriblePubbies. while trying to buy it.
I wonder how much items are destroyed by people losing whatever they just bought the very second they undock after buying it in null... |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1756
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:26:00 -
[377] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. But yet I own several POSs and am unable to dock, or reprocess or massive storage space. So if it is not a bonus on an outpost do you believe that it is a programming error on a POS, after all it is not a bonus? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1756
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:30:00 -
[378] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Frying Doom wrote: more stuff I disagree with FD, so far you've called me risk averse in this topic and lazy in another for expressing my opinions. Neither is accurate. And I own a POS. I don't own a dozen of them and do not have POS's stationed across known space. Which is never going to happen. You again write that boosting manufacturing returns at a high sec POS is some kind of reward for owning one despite countless examples of why tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not beneficial. (Stop doing me favors!) It would be a logistical nightmare for the same exact reasons cited in this topic explaining why it's a nightmare for null players. Debating whether everything I've invested into my gameplay for the past 14 months is going to be made pointless does frustrate me as the consequences are potentially game-changing to an unacceptable degree. But I play this game because its fun. Piloting a freighter isn't. In fact, it's my least-favorite activity in the game. So tieing my least-favorite activity in the game to my primary source of income isn't something I'm ever going to be a vocal supporter of. How dumb would that be? This change would at best, make my game vastly less enjoyable and at worst end it entirely. So until the black day comes to pass ushering in changes which ruin my game, I'm going to be a vocal opponent. For me, there is no other option. It's not personal. So if my opposition offends anyone, I apologize in advance. YK Like I said you are arguing that the yield on a procurer should be the same as on a hulk or it is not fair for the procurer pilot.
And how only being slightly less profitable makes it your training pointless? it would just mean you like every other profession in this game would have to max some skills and no matter how much you use sensationalist comments like that it will never make them true. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2608
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:31:00 -
[379] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. But yet I own several POSs and am unable to dock, or reprocess or massive storage space. So if it is not a bonus on an outpost do you believe that it is a programming error on a POS, after all it is not a bonus?
POS towers & outposts are two completely different things. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1756
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:34:00 -
[380] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:
Because, for any serious manufacturer, costs are irrelevant.
What... More costs = less profits, what in the world makes you think more costs is a good thing? You honestly think we think costs are irrelevant in any of our choices? Even your own mad workings out show high sec is the only logical choice. Not quite. I can make X produce for Y cost. I can make 3X product for 2Y cost. The actual cost isn't relevant, as long as it's within my means. Because the profit is higher. I'll admit, it wasn't well worded. How the hell are cost irrelevant?
You can produce a rifter for 4000 isk or you can produce a rifter for 40,000,000 isk
I know what one I would produce. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1756
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:38:00 -
[381] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I have little experience with Outposts This will be important for the next quote. Frying Doom wrote:outposts already give a fair few bonuses, docking being one of them. That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all. But yet I own several POSs and am unable to dock, or reprocess or massive storage space. So if it is not a bonus on an outpost do you believe that it is a programming error on a POS, after all it is not a bonus? POS towers & outposts are two completely different things. Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install.
As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1756
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:42:00 -
[382] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: It is, you're a nullsec zealot, your "opinion" is worthless here on GENERAL DISCUSSION.
MY POSTS FOR NULLSEC! Bloody Nullsec Zealots. Actually after this thread it is really becoming "Bloody Hi-sec Zealots" We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
506
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:45:00 -
[383] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Nexus Day wrote:Given the risk vs reward relationship the order should be WH industry > Low Industry > Null=Hi industry.
But my guess is CCP will keep things the way they are. Why not? It seems the formula is working. No, it isn't. However bridging off your idea, I like the idea of making WH space the most optimal place for T3 production. A lot of POS changes would have to happen to make that possible, though. It clearly isn't working, but industry is so far down the list of reasons why it isn't working that I'm personally surprised that anyone who knows what's going on at all even cares. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4149
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:46:00 -
[384] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... This guy gets it. No, it looks even worse when you're here and there's bitches trying to catch your jump freighter (a good JF pilot is of course "riskless" rite~) and you have to freighter stuff around in nullsec (minerals, parts, ships) again, with people camping your gates or JBs. So yes, Jita it is. Buy, then just one run of JF, done. Drop in VFK where people will get caught in a bubble warping to the station and killed by Black Legion/NC./TerriblePubbies. while trying to buy it. I wonder how much items are destroyed by people losing whatever they just bought the very second they undock after buying it in null... Not terribly often, since if you undock into a hot situation you can pretty much always dock again. You only run into trouble if you aggress like an idiot, or if you invalidate invuln/let it expire and get alpha'd. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3909
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 07:38:00 -
[385] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:All that null sec stuff looks so bad to someone who's never been there. It looks like do X more the recive Y less for it... It's not inviting at all... This guy gets it. No, it looks even worse when you're here and there's bitches trying to catch your jump freighter (a good JF pilot is of course "riskless" rite~) and you have to freighter stuff around in nullsec (minerals, parts, ships) again, with people camping your gates or JBs. So yes, Jita it is. Buy, then just one run of JF, done. Drop in VFK where people will get caught in a bubble warping to the station and killed by Black Legion/NC./TerriblePubbies. while trying to buy it. I wonder how much items are destroyed by people losing whatever they just bought the very second they undock after buying it in null...
Before the timers revamp there was a trick to stop without dropping the immunity timer and then re-dock, it has saved my butt some times in there. Of course there were some insanely quick reactions pro bumpers that could teach James315 dudes some lessons. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4151
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 07:51:00 -
[386] - Quote
That trick still works. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:07:00 -
[387] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:March rabbit wrote:La Nariz wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:You're neglecting to take into account the huge investment of ISK, time and effort to secure that security in sov space. It doesn't just happen by itself. And it's still less secure than hi-sec. Being able to shape your own empire is the reward, not a cost. If you don't like that ability, nothing forces you to embark into it. False: Building the empire is a cost ok. then next question: what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0? What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH? "what is the reward in being in SOV 0.0?" That part is subjective, I would personally say control. Yet there isn't enough of a competitive advantage so that control isn't really useful. It's also one of the reasons people don't fight as often as the forum howls for. If there is no advantage to be taken from someone else why fight them? "What makes you to be in SOV 0.0 instead of low-sec/NPC 0.0/WH?" I think you are trying to say "What makes you want to be in SOV 0.0 instead of being in lowsec/NPC 0.0/WH" if that's not the case correct me. I am not in SOV 0.0 unless there is a fleet op, most of my time is spent awoxing people in highsec. We might have control of our area of space but, control of nothing is still nothing. Nullsec needs some substance to attract people like myself back to full-time living there. There needs to be an industrial backbone and the "farms and fields" concept needs to be fleshed out so there will be more things to do as well as fights to be had. you got me right.
and now i see another thing: 0.0 sov isn't interesting to you (and i guess we can speak about your alliance). However 0.0 sov can be interesting for another people who cannot take it from your BIG BLUE DONUT.
Maybe instead of having thing you don't need and complain for CCP to improve this thing you simply move to some other place which is more interesting then? You said you spend more time in empire so why return to 0.0 then? |
baltec1
Bat Country
5515
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:43:00 -
[388] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install.
As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange.
So you will be fine with high sec stations also charging the same sum to every pilot that used them then. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4154
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:06:00 -
[389] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:you got me right.
and now i see another thing: 0.0 sov isn't interesting to you (and i guess we can speak about your alliance). However 0.0 sov can be interesting for another people who cannot take it from your BIG BLUE DONUT.
Maybe instead of having thing you don't need and complain for CCP to improve this thing you simply move to some other place which is more interesting then? You said you spend more time in empire so why return to 0.0 then? Stop trolling. You're not being funny, or clever, or smart, and you're just spouting fallacies and misinformation all over the place. We address this **** in practically every page of this thread and yet you idiots still post it. It's getting irritating. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1757
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:33:00 -
[390] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install.
As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange.
So you will be fine with high sec stations also charging the same sum to every pilot that uses them then. No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:38:00 -
[391] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Oh right, HIGHSEC is the place to be, the NPCs have the infrastructure all ready for you ! tried to be sarcastic?
failed.
because HIGHSEC is the place to be!
any other areas of Eve Universe if for roams and fun only. Which you (i mean 0.0 SOV seccers) prove with your "i only do fleet ops here".
|
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1036
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:43:00 -
[392] - Quote
I can see arguments for it both being better or worse than highsec. I guess the argument for worse would be so you don't end up with two very separated areas - having some dependency on one another is a good dynamic, but even if you're on that side fo the argument the industry in null shouldn't be as abysmal as it is now. For that side of the argument I'd say null would need 50-75% of the capabilities of highsec. Right now it's like bloody 0.5% the capability |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3910
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 11:01:00 -
[393] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:That trick still works.
Yes, but between timers shortening and stations having been changed so that now few are still of the kick off kind, the need to resort to the stop trick has gone down. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
5516
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 11:34:00 -
[394] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1758
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 13:41:00 -
[395] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build. Fair enough, it would remain cheaper and easier to produce inn high sec. As there are no bubbles and concord is there to protect you and your assets. This is not about forcing anyone to do anything.
It is about allowing those who risk or go out of their way to have higher faction standings or higher skilling to have more alternatives, while at the same time not destroying the game play of those in high sec, be they full time or casual industrialists.
As at the moment the only choice worth taking is Hi sec NPC stations.
So I see no problem I in your want to remain in hi sec. This is of course your choice.
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2619
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:21:00 -
[396] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:POS towers & outposts are two completely different things. Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install. As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange.
Being able to dock in an outpost is a feature, not a bonus. Just as POS's being awful is a feature & not a bonus.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3911
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:28:00 -
[397] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build.
And that's the one real recurring and true issue.
Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you.
This is why I say that nerfing hi sec is pointless. As long as the very "hi sec concept" exists, regardless of how much you'll nerf it, people will still firmly stick to staying there and even null sec industrialists will stick in there.
That's why I say that the only "cure" is removing hi sec completely and re-implement gradual security "decline" tied with increasing offered features (not income, *features* and capabilities).
Look at mining. Income has dropped 5 times since last year's HK days, it might still drop another 5 times and people will still do it.
PI? The same. Hi sec planets suck, there's a sensible tax yet only a fraction bothers doing PI outside of hi sec. Hi sec L4 missions? The same. From > 100M per hour now they might be down to 30-40 yet people firmly sticks doing them. Why? Simple. Because they are the slack, casual, no brainer and still with positive profits expectation over time.
Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever.
So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone.
Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place.
That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fearghaz Tiwas
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:36:00 -
[398] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build. And that's the one real recurring and true issue. Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you. This is why I say that nerfing hi sec is pointless. As long as the very "hi sec concept" exists, regardless of how much you'll nerf it, people will still firmly stick to staying there and even null sec industrialists will stick in there. That's why I say that the only "cure" is removing hi sec completely and re-implement gradual security "decline" tied with increasing offered features (not income, *features* and capabilities). Look at mining. Income has dropped 5 times since last year's HK days, it might still drop another 5 times and people will still do it. PI? The same. Hi sec planets suck, there's a sensible tax yet only a fraction bothers doing PI outside of hi sec. Hi sec L4 missions? The same. From > 100M per hour now they might be down to 30-40 yet people firmly sticks doing them. Why? Simple. Because they are the slack, casual, no brainer and still with positive profits expectation over time. Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever. So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone. Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place. That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone.
This is basically my mindset, we're just going about getting results in different ways. You have your sec tier system, I prefer the tiers of tax. For ever 4 people in Hi sec because of the issues discussed, theres probably 1 there because its the only place with the current system that he can be profitable.
Come to think of it, is there any reason our ideas for hisec could be used alongside each other, perhaps in less extreme guises?
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5521
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:38:00 -
[399] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Fair enough, it would remain cheaper and easier to produce inn high sec. As there are no bubbles and concord is there to protect you and your assets. This is not about forcing anyone to do anything.
It is about allowing those who risk or go out of their way to have higher faction standings or higher skilling to have more alternatives, while at the same time not destroying the game play of those in high sec, be they full time or casual industrialists.
As at the moment the only choice worth taking is Hi sec NPC stations.
So I see no problem I in your want to remain in hi sec. This is of course your choice.
Given that the bulk of my market is in VFK no, no I don't want to be in high sec. But because high sec is is the cheapest place to be thats where I stay. Its where everyone else will stay too because who in their right mind wants to make less isk?
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:46:00 -
[400] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever.
So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone.
Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place.
That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone.
I'd note that it probably isn't possible to do away with these characteristics and keep the game alive.
The game industry as a whole has set an expectation that "if you logged out with it it will still be there when you log back in, even if it is years later as long as the server lives" which EvE pushes on pretty hard already.
Mind you, it's a perfectly reasonable game design, but I don't think it's possible to go from a "persistent stuff game" to a "no safe place for your stuff at all" game and stay in business. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
|
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:12:00 -
[401] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install.
As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange.
So you will be fine with high sec stations also charging the same sum to every pilot that uses them then.
Wait, are you implying that it should be FAIR? God, you nullbears are the biggest hypocrits. Whenever you're talking about nerfing hisec all we hear is "the game isn't about fairness". HTFU!...for the children! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4165
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:22:00 -
[402] - Quote
I don't think he said anything about it being fair, more about how it should, I don't know, make sense. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:27:00 -
[403] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I don't think he said anything about it being fair, more about how it should, I don't know, make sense. yea. it would be good if these stations charge pilots for let's say using of repairing, manufacturing facilities.... For renting offices....
ooops.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3914
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:37:00 -
[404] - Quote
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote: This is basically my mindset, we're just going about getting results in different ways. You have your sec tier system, I prefer the tiers of tax. For ever 4 people in Hi sec because of the issues discussed, theres probably 1 there because its the only place with the current system that he can be profitable.
Come to think of it, is there any reason our ideas for hisec could be used alongside each other, perhaps in less extreme guises?
Probably a bit of both would work too. I tend to not focus everything around ISK only, because only a subset of players are really so adsorbed by the "earn ISK, earn ISK, earn ISK" concept, mainly dedicated industrialists and traders. The others are in for many reasons like PvP, tears, community building etc. etc. and their sensibility is more about what environment, limitations and features they find around the universe than straight ISK. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1763
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:22:00 -
[405] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:POS towers & outposts are two completely different things. Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install. As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange. Being able to dock in an outpost is a feature, not a bonus. Just as POS's being awful is a feature & not a bonus. Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1763
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:26:00 -
[406] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Fair enough, it would remain cheaper and easier to produce inn high sec. As there are no bubbles and concord is there to protect you and your assets. This is not about forcing anyone to do anything.
It is about allowing those who risk or go out of their way to have higher faction standings or higher skilling to have more alternatives, while at the same time not destroying the game play of those in high sec, be they full time or casual industrialists.
As at the moment the only choice worth taking is Hi sec NPC stations.
So I see no problem I in your want to remain in hi sec. This is of course your choice.
Given that the bulk of my market is in VFK no, no I don't want to be in high sec. But because high sec is is the cheapest place to be thats where I stay. Its where everyone else will stay too because who in their right mind wants to make less isk? Yes but you can make the slots cheaper in Null in terms of isk but the largest problem then becomes what is the manufacturing risk in Null.
If you are producing at the same station as you are selling it is, while if you are using a freighter to go 15 jumps even in the big blue donut it would be high risk.
That is why I jus prefer that the slots per/hr are slightly more expensive in Hi-sec NPC stations and around the same as a POS. As a hi-sec POS has the additional cost of needing hi-sec status plus charters. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1763
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:32:00 -
[407] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build. And that's the one real recurring and true issue. Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you. This is why I say that nerfing hi sec is pointless. As long as the very "hi sec concept" exists, regardless of how much you'll nerf it, people will still firmly stick to staying there and even null sec industrialists will stick in there. That's why I say that the only "cure" is removing hi sec completely and re-implement gradual security "decline" tied with increasing offered features (not income, *features* and capabilities). Look at mining. Income has dropped 5 times since last year's HK days, it might still drop another 5 times and people will still do it. PI? The same. Hi sec planets suck, there's a sensible tax yet only a fraction bothers doing PI outside of hi sec. Hi sec L4 missions? The same. From > 100M per hour now they might be down to 30-40 yet people firmly sticks doing them. Why? Simple. Because they are the slack, casual, no brainer and still with positive profits expectation over time. Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever. So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone. Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place. That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone. This is very much about offering people real choices. Yes if things are altered in favour of player owned structures then a lot of people still would chose not to use them but a fair few would choose too.
There are those that even if Hi-sec was trashed to the point that profits were 1/10 of all the other regions, that would still stay in hi-sec. Why because it is easier. There is concord, large markets, easy logistics ect...
This is about giving players choices so that players that do not want the safety blanket can have them. While using as few resources as possible. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Akiyo Mayaki
145
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:17:00 -
[408] - Quote
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. No |
Sentamon
739
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:23:00 -
[409] - Quote
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.
And they already are, by a mile.
Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1763
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:29:00 -
[410] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation. So you would be fine if all the industry facilities for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry facilities were moved to Null? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:29:00 -
[411] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.
Well said my friend. Well said.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:31:00 -
[412] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation. So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null?
Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..
See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1763
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:34:00 -
[413] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation. So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null? Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it.. See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh? And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do.
Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13135
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:38:00 -
[414] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. GǪapart from the whole Gǣbeing rewardedGǥ part, since null industry is all punishment.
Quote:Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?).
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:41:00 -
[415] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation. So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null? Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it.. See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh? And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do. Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it. Oh also does that mean we get to have cynos, bubbles and capitals in Hi-sec?
I dont. I think its ****** as well. It is, however, a source of vast wealth for null sec players. Unfortunately the few that are in power positions are the only ones that truly benefit.
The ISK is there to be had in null sec in far greater quantities than high. The only ones stopping you are other players. Null Sec's problems are 10% system and 90% player.
They never want to admit they they are the cause of most of their own problems. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Primary Me
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:41:00 -
[416] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..
See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh? Made yourself look even more foolish than you normally do?
James 315 for CSM 8. A voice for hi-sec, a voice for reason. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:45:00 -
[417] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.[/quote]
If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Sentamon
739
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:46:00 -
[418] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪapart from the whole Gǣbeing rewardedGǥ part, since null industry is all punishment.
Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:46:00 -
[419] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..
See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh? Made yourself look even more foolish than you normally do?
The truth hits these self entitled null sec bears right were it hurts. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:48:00 -
[420] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪapart from the whole Gǣbeing rewardedGǥ part, since null industry is all punishment.
Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry.
Exactly. The levels of self entitlement are astounding with these null sec care bears. I mean, epic proportions. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13135
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:58:00 -
[421] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry. So you're all for removing all income from highsec, then? There's nothing stopping people from making money in low and nullGǪ
In fact, you're all for removing industry from highsec, I preseume, since there's nothing stopping people from doing that in low and null? Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:01:00 -
[422] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry. So you're all for removing all income from highsec, then? There's nothing stopping people from making money in low and nullGǪ In fact, you're all for removing industry from highsec, I preseume, since there's nothing stopping people from doing that in low and null?
Straw man, dont you read what you link? Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13135
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:02:00 -
[423] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Straw man Nope.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:05:00 -
[424] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Straw man Nope.
Sure it is.
It sucks when you try to call someone out for something then decide to use said tactic multiple times in later postings. Live by the sword die by the sword and all that funky music... Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:09:00 -
[425] - Quote
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.
Manufacturing slots lie fallow because there isn't sufficient demand for them, for numerous reasons mostly to do with nobody wanting to feed potential opposition.
If there were highsec levels of industry slots in nullsec, it would all lie fallow because the politics that make the current system what it is wouldn't have changed.
Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13135
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:11:00 -
[426] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Sure it is. Nope. It's a reductio ad absurdum. Maybe you should read the link you keep referring to, since you're so familiar with it?
If it's ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live, then it is ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live. He's saying that it's ok that null sucks because there's always highsec, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential. Thus, it's ok to make highsec suck because there's always low and null, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential.
So, no, GÇ£just go to highsecGÇ¥ is not a valid argument for keeping the game imbalanced, and his entire premise is fundamentally flawed, thoroughly ignorant, and unless he actually thinks that it's also ok to remove all income from highsec, he's also a hypocrite. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:11:00 -
[427] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:14:00 -
[428] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Sure it is. Nope. It's a reductio ad absurdum. Maybe you should read the link you keep referring to, since you're so familiar with it? If it's ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live, then it is ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live. He's saying that it's ok that null sucks because there's always highsec, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential. Thus, it's ok to make highsec suck because there's always low and null, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential. So, no, GÇ£just go to highsecGÇ¥ is not a valid argument for keeping the game imbalanced, and his entire premise is fundamentally flawed, thoroughly ignorant, and unless he actually thinks that it's also ok to remove all income from highsec, he's also a hypocrite.
You spin me right round, baby right round like a record, baby Right round round round Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13135
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:16:00 -
[429] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the GǪmechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7000
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:17:00 -
[430] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.
Manufacturing slots lie fallow because there isn't sufficient demand for them, for numerous reasons mostly to do with nobody wanting to feed potential opposition.
If there were highsec levels of industry slots in nullsec, it would all lie fallow because the politics that make the current system what it is wouldn't have changed.
Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
They lie fallow because there is literally no reason to use them. Currently, importing any great quantities of minerals to nullsec requires mineral compression, which requires the use of a 0.0 refinery station. Once you melt the guns and XL crystals and such and have a pile of minerals, you then have to haul them to a station with slots - only Minmatar outposts can yield 100% refines while having a "decent" (i.e. more than 2) number of manufacturing slots.
You also can't source those quantities of minerals in nullsec - mining enough lowends to do any real manufacturing in 0.0 would require all of the belts in a region to be stripped on a daily basis. Nobody has that kind of manpower, and mining veldspar in 0.0 is no different from mining it in a 1.0 system. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
Zircon Dasher
148
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:26:00 -
[431] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the GǪmechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.
And by highseccers you do mean null-sec pvp toon alts...... right?
Its much better to log in an alt in the safe space a few jumps from a hub, where I don't have to be bothered with :effort: AND I get to keep all the profits for myself.
That way I can spend all my real time in the game making pew pew without having to worry about my income streams. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4183
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:29:00 -
[432] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them. And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest. You disgust me. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:35:00 -
[433] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.
The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.
Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.
So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.
So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build. And that's the one real recurring and true issue. Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you.
He said cheaper and easier, not either cheaper or easier.
The rest of your rant is based on your preconceptions of the game, and arguing them is pointless because none of us can actually bring up relevant and impartial statistics in the manner. As it stands there's just a lot of us who would like to do industry in nullsec but highsec is just so much better. Count me in that "insignificant minority" at least.
PS: training my third industry alt. Like the other two, he will build in highsec in the current game environment.
|
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:38:00 -
[434] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them. And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest. You disgust me.
The truth disgusts you.
Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.
Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:45:00 -
[435] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them. And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest. You disgust me. The truth disgusts you. Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots. Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.
Why would neutral industrialists work in sov governed by an NRDS owned and operated landlords when industry in highsec is safer, cheaper, has easier access to minerals, and is more profitable?
Go on, convince me that they don't suffer from the exact same problems that NBSI coalition industrialists have |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:53:00 -
[436] - Quote
I mean you at least need to call for jump freighters to be nerfed for your "it's *your fault*" argument, because clearly then neutral traders and industry will be our ~only hope~ instead of moving all our staging systems to 1 jump from highsec because living in 0.0 just became entirely unfeasible. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:55:00 -
[437] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the GǪmechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs. Well, then we can have the discussion about industry again after the sovereignty mechanics change, because right now it would be a waste of developer time. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
stoicfaux
2521
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 00:29:00 -
[438] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.
I'm inclined to disagree. According to CCP Diagoras' tweets, null mining volume was pretty impressive given that the high-sec population is three times that of null. If null is organized enough to mine that much ore, then it is probably a safe bet that null industry would take off.
Or... 1,470 / 67 = 21.9 million units of ore per % of population 796 / 21 = 37.9 million unis of per per % of population...
|
YuuKnow
Planetary Purchasing
674
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 00:31:00 -
[439] - Quote
Not sure what the concept of "better at industry" means? Trade / Markets drive industry. Places where the market thrives industry will thrive. Areas where access and trade routes are not secure, ganking is high, and loss of cargo (read profit) is high will never have bustling markets / trade and will therefore never compare to high sec (read secure) industry.
yk |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:11:00 -
[440] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.
I'm inclined to disagree. According to CCP Diagoras' tweets, null mining volume was pretty impressive given that the high-sec population is three times that of null. If null is organized enough to mine that much ore, then it is probably a safe bet that null industry would take off. Or... 1,470 / 67 = 21.9 million units of ore per % of population 796 / 21 = 37.9 million unis of per per % of population... Certainly with all that mining if there was market support for nullsec industry beyond current levels there wouldn't be any idle manufacturing lines, since mining will be dominantly done in systems with refining stations, and it's only going to be one jump to a manufacturing station.
The obvious answer to this dilemma is the minerals get shipped to highsec, because that's where the market is, because that's where the most player activity is. It appears from some of the comments on these threads that the 21% of 5M+ SP toons in nullsec are mostly idle compared to their highsec counterparts, making their harvesting abilities all the more impressive.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:18:00 -
[441] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sentamon wrote: And they already are, by a mile.
Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.
So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null? Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it.. See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh? And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do. Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it. Oh also does that mean we get to have cynos, bubbles and capitals in Hi-sec? I dont. I think its ****** as well. It is, however, a source of vast wealth for null sec players. Unfortunately the few that are in power positions are the only ones that truly benefit. The ISK is there to be had in null sec in far greater quantities than high. The only ones stopping you are other players. Null Sec's problems are 10% system and 90% player. They never want to admit they they are the cause of most of their own problems. Yes there is wealth in Null but it is the game mechanics that are screwed.
Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.
The same goes for industry, it favours huge alliances with hundreds of jump freighters that can go to jita and buy the minerals to turn into supers and that is about all that Null industry is good for.
If you want to build for example a battlecruiser, you are just better off paying a markup and having it imported for you and if you don't have that capability well you are just screwed. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
582
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:18:00 -
[442] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote: The truth disgusts you.
Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.
Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.
Providence must really be the holy land for nullsec industry, I mean there's so many outposts there and their owners let anyone dock in them! |
Umega
Solis Mensa
135
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:21:00 -
[443] - Quote
Isn't this a pointless arguement until null gets some other changes?
I don't see a point of debating whether null needs industry improvements when there are more explosions happening in highsec rookie systems than null bottleneck systems.
I honestly wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone told me that w-space has more explosions than null.. and an industrial backbone is more taunting there!
Quoting how many people there are in a certain region is kinda irrelevent.. that's only a portion of the demand. Boomboom is going to fuel more demand.. even if the population is significantly lower. If 'Jack' buys a ship and it lasts 1-2 years.. Jack don't need to buy another soon. If Jack buys a ship and it lasts 1-2 weeks.. Jack needs 20-30 times more of that ship per year.
Till null is made more 'explosive'.. what's the point of making null factories >/=? Sounds like a waste of CCP resources needed elsewhere to fix other, more glaring problems.. that in turn make this whole debate actually suitable to have. In all truth.. majority of alliance 'war-chests' are more than well off.. a change wouldn't mean **** till a lot more boomboom digs into existing stockpiles. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:23:00 -
[444] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?. Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:31:00 -
[445] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?. Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? Like they say, a dog returns to its ... well, you know.
We should be happy in highsec, a glorious utopia. One united security region under CONCORD. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:33:00 -
[446] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the GǪmechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs. Well, then we can have the discussion about industry again after the sovereignty mechanics change, because right now it would be a waste of developer time. Not at all as their is more to Null than just Sov space and the ability of Player owned structures to out preform NPC ones should not be prevented just because some people seem to be using the argument similar in logic to why the yield of a procurer should be equal to the yield oh a hulk. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
167
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:35:00 -
[447] - Quote
He did raise an interesting point.
Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom
We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.
Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into The Battle of Wizna. Like the movie 300 but with worse odds and the Germans as the attackers. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4186
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:41:00 -
[448] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them. And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest. You disgust me. The truth disgusts you. Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots. Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have. No, what disgusts me are your bold faced lies and willful intellectual dishonesty. You're a ******* troll and you know it. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4186
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:43:00 -
[449] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:He did raise an interesting point.
Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom
We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.
Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.
Ayn Rand would be disappointed. READ THE THREAD
GAME MECHANICS ARE WHY IT IS THE WAY IT IS WE CAN'T BYPASS THE GAME MECHANICS AS MUCH AS YOU'D LIKE TO THINK SO GROW A BRAIN AND LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT THE TOPIC BEFORE YOU COMMENT Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
503
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:45:00 -
[450] - Quote
Being a modest industrialist myself, and one who isn't risk averse, I am sad that null is in the state it is in now.
I've done the math, my spreadsheets tell me that convenience, production costs, sale margins, expected movement of goods.. they all say the same thing.. doing null sec industry that isn't massive, aka supercap production, or mega assembly of large amounts of things, delivering to a specific alliance, isn't worth it.
You have too small a market, too much extra costs of logistics involved, and on top of that, the risks of NPC space or Sov space, where an invasion could crush your entire operation, even the threat of one could shut you down.
Add to that the investment costs that are currently required to get even some basic things set up and developed, it's simply not profitable compared to doing your industry in High sec, where you have easy access to minerals and other goodies, tons of manufacturing slots, and a large ready market to sell your products to.
|
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Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
167
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:59:00 -
[451] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:He did raise an interesting point.
Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom
We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.
Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.
Ayn Rand would be disappointed. Game mechanics are why it is the way it is. We can't bypass the game mechanics as much as you'd like to think so. Please take time to actually learn the issues before you comment. Edited because it was WAAAAAAAAAY too harsh. Sorry about that.
What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?
Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too. The Battle of Wizna. Like the movie 300 but with worse odds and the Germans as the attackers. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4187
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:02:00 -
[452] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?
Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too. So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other? Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other. Clearly we're the problem. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:06:00 -
[453] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:He did raise an interesting point.
Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom
We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.
Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.
Ayn Rand would be disappointed. Game mechanics are why it is the way it is. We can't bypass the game mechanics as much as you'd like to think so. Please take time to actually learn the issues before you comment. Edited because it was WAAAAAAAAAY too harsh. Sorry about that. What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it? Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too. That is not a game mechanic, that is human biology.
We will all try be rewarded for our activities in some way or another. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Angelique Duchemin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
167
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:09:00 -
[454] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?
Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too. So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other? Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other. Clearly we're the problem.
No the problem is that the nullsec population and their leadership look at Jita and demand the same from CCP. They want a nullsec Jita.
For the industry to move to nullsec. As if it was taken from them. And they believe that the solution is to make high sec less safe. That the market and industry will spread out more then.
But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry. The Battle of Wizna. Like the movie 300 but with worse odds and the Germans as the attackers. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:17:00 -
[455] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: No, what disgusts me are your bold faced lies and willful intellectual dishonesty. You're a ******* troll and you know it.
You're so butt hurt. The more angry and vitriolic a person gets, the closer to the truth you are hitting with your opinions and comments.
Ill take your anger and disrespectful comments as a sign that Im right on target pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements and opinions on this issue.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:18:00 -
[456] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?
Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too. So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other? Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other. Clearly we're the problem. No the problem is that the nullsec population and their leadership look at Jita and demand the same from CCP. They want a nullsec Jita. For the industry to move to nullsec. As if it was taken from them. And they believe that the solution is to make high sec less safe. That the market and industry will spread out more then. But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry. For easy just let me say.
If Null was more profitable I would move there We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:19:00 -
[457] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.
The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:24:00 -
[458] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:
But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.
The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now. Yeah that is a great philosophy.
What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3915
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:28:00 -
[459] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote: He said cheaper and easier, not either cheaper or easier.
The rest of your rant is based on your preconceptions of the game, and arguing them is pointless because none of us can actually bring up relevant and impartial statistics in the manner. As it stands there's just a lot of us in this thread who would like to do industry in nullsec but highsec is just so much better. Count me in that "insignificant minority".
PS: training my third industry alt. Like the other two, he will build in highsec in the current game environment.
Mine was certainly not meant to be a rant, maybe you should decolor your glasses.
As for "would like to.... but...", it's a fallacy.
If you REALLY wanted to build in null sec you would, exactly like my old corp used to do.
Now restate it honestly as "we would like to do industry in null sec but it's more convenient in hi sec".
This sounds better and indeed hi sec is more convenient and indeed null sec should be buffed a lot, but don't make it show like you are poor helpless victims of a system you chose to embark into.
Apparently, like it or not, back at the dawn of the game, CCP decided that going in null sec meant to live an harsh life, that EvE would be based on a center-periphery model and that certain things would suck when done in null sec.
Now you go there knowing how it is but then not only come back and demand CCP to change their universe to suit your desires but also to adversely affect everybody else, including low sec (they too have zillions of stations and high refine stations). CCP could and probably should help you in an act of kindess they have not done for anyone else before CFC / HBC, sure. But don't pretend you can also pee on everybody else's cheerios with them happily accept it at once.
Even if you weren't an insignificant minority (no stats to know), you are still in an organization that accepted going there knowing the bonuses and the shortcomings years in advance.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:33:00 -
[460] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:
But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.
The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now. Yeah that is a great philosophy. What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable?
Meh.
Nothing will change in sov space until those in power have a change in philosophy and attitude towards the rest of Eve. It was in their power to turn their sections of SOV space into trade and industrial friendly areas and instead everyone of them to a T rubbed their hands together in greed and power and locked out everyone else while they watched their wallets fill with isk from the moon goo spigots.
They were so obsessed with their greed and status quo they blued up almost 70% of SOV space. Now everyone else is supposed to bow down and bend over as they want to take from High Sec and force High Sec folks to want to play in an environment like that?
Im sure all we will hear is more blame on mechanics and no admittance of blame on themselves, which is to be expected (consider the source) but folks are wise to them and the real cause of their problems as this point so that everytime they cry on the forums folks just roll their eyes.
No thanks. Honestly, the last people anyone should be listening to about making EVE "better" are the clowns that turned null sov into what it is today.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:35:00 -
[461] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Now restate it honestly as "we would like to do industry in null sec but it's more convenient in hi sec".
This sounds better and indeed hi sec is more convenient and indeed null sec should be buffed a lot, but don't make it show like you are poor helpless victims of a system you chose to embark into.
Apparently, like it or not, back at the dawn of the game, CCP decided that going in null sec meant to live an harsh life, that EvE would be based on a center-periphery model and that certain things would suck when done in null sec.
From my point of view I would like to do Industry in Null but it is not profitable to do so.
But as to how CCP structured EvE 10 years ago is a lot different to what it is now. By the look of it all of the regions were meant to be reliant on the others but due to additions made over the years this is no longer true. Null is reliant on Hi-sec but Hi-sec is only reliant on Null for Moon Goo and a few BPOs and officer mods.
And the Moon Goo does not help the average player as to the profitability of Null Sec or for that matter the majority of Alliances. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3915
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:41:00 -
[462] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.
EvE is a sandbox (sadly with an hi sec, should get rid of that) with a very high degree of freedom given to the players.
Assuming what you say is right: If those players are stupid enough to work like dummies for the "wealth in few hands", what's wrong with it? I mean, there's no hardcoded rule or law forcing people to obey and enslave for others to get rich. Just rebel, and kick those "few hands" and then spread the wealth between everybody.
But knowing what you say is not that right: Alliance members let the "few hands" decide who gets what and to spend that wealth in ships replacements and whatsnot. Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do.
Do those few hands also administer the whole alliance, spend time and ability in diplomacy, organize with the corp officers and FCs? Yes they do.
Do they organize alliance logistics, buy sov structures, setup bridges? Yes they do.
So.... tell it again... are those few hands hoarding the wealth or are you forgetting about the LOT of stuff everyone in the alliance benefits from and thus the wealth is shared?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:43:00 -
[463] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:
But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.
The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now. Yeah that is a great philosophy. What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable? Meh. Nothing will change in sov space until those in power have a change in philosophy and attitude towards the rest of Eve. It was in their power to turn their sections of SOV space into trade and industrial friendly areas and instead everyone of them to a T rubbed their hands together in greed and power and locked out everyone else while they watched their wallets fill with isk from the moon goo spigots. They were so obsessed with their greed and status quo they blued up almost 70% of SOV space. Now everyone else is supposed to bow down and bend over as they want to take from High Sec and force High Sec folks to want to play in an environment like that? Im sure all we will hear is more blame on mechanics and no admittance of blame on themselves, which is to be expected (consider the source) but folks are wise to them and the real cause of their problems as this point so that everytime they cry on the forums folks just roll their eyes. No thanks. Honestly, the last people anyone should be listening to about making EVE "better" are the clowns that turned null sov into what it is today. The ability for a game mechanics to change Null into the Utopia you speak are exactly zero, unless they just turn it into Hi-sec.
But now in hi-sec people are complaining about war decs and how they need to be consensual, so not even turning into Null would work. Even a usage based Sov system will not make Sov areas friendly to out siders.
But your hatred of Null sov alliances in the end means nothing, as you can blame Sov leadership as much as you like but they are using their might to protect their membership and their is no reason that membership should not be able to have a reasonable industry set up around them.
And to top it all off it does not help the balance of game towards risk/reward. Nor does it help people who might want to move to more dangerous areas, even though they are taking higher risks to make it a worth while option.
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:45:00 -
[464] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.
EvE is a sandbox (sadly with an hi sec, should get rid of that) with a very high degree of freedom given to the players. Assuming what you say is right: If those players are stupid enough to work like dummies for the "wealth in few hands", what's wrong with it? I mean, there's no hardcoded rule or law forcing people to obey and enslave for others to get rich. Just rebel, and kick those "few hands" and then spread the wealth between everybody. But knowing what you say is not that right: Alliance members let the "few hands" decide who gets what and to spend that wealth in ships replacements and whatsnot. Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do. Do those few hands also administer the whole alliance, spend time and ability in diplomacy, organize with the corp officers and FCs? Yes they do. Do they organize alliance logistics, buy sov structures, setup bridges? Yes they do. So.... tell it again... are those few hands hoarding the wealth or are you forgetting about the LOT of stuff everyone in the alliance benefits from and thus the wealth is shared? You say alliance member this and alliance member that.
What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3915
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:49:00 -
[465] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: But as to how CCP structured EvE 10 years ago is a lot different to what it is now. By the look of it all of the regions were meant to be reliant on the others but due to additions made over the years this is no longer true. Null is reliant on Hi-sec but Hi-sec is only reliant on Null for Moon Goo and a few BPOs and officer mods.
If null sec got the same refineries and enough industry slots it'd be self reliant. But no, that's not enough, we have also to nerf the rest of the game as cherry on the cake so that null sec people can come flood Jita and outcompete hi sec industrialist on their own products.
Frying Doom wrote: And the Moon Goo does not help the average player as to the profitability of Null Sec or for that matter the majority of Alliances.
The moon goo ends in ship replacement programs, structures, logistics and other 50 destinations that all end up benefitting everyone in that alliance. It's just not straight ISK handed in your hands. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3915
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 02:52:00 -
[466] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:So you are claiming that if I flew into Null today I could ask Goonswarm for a copy of Capital ships? I know where they would tell me to stick that.
If they tell you that, it means you did nothing worth enough to deserve 1 skill book. I am quite sure their officers are ready to shell the billions to assist those they consider deserving that.
Frying Doom wrote: You say alliance member this and alliance member that.
What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances?
You do like we did: harden up, perform weekly corp / alliance ops to farm ISK / minerals and then go conquer moons to stop performing the boring weekly corp / alliance ops.
We had full fitted capital ships replacement program, even before owning our first moon.
Meh, is it just me or the current players are way softened compared to the past? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4190
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:03:00 -
[467] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: No, what disgusts me are your bold faced lies and willful intellectual dishonesty. You're a ******* troll and you know it.
You're so butt hurt. The more angry and vitriolic a person gets, the closer to the truth you are hitting with your opinions and comments. Ill take your anger and disrespectful comments as a sign that Im right on target pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements and opinions on this issue. There's a difference between being butthurt and being extremely frustrated at such a profound display of ignorance, idiocy, and trolling.
It's pretty telling that you're posting all this with an NPC corp alt. Pretty cowardly move on your part. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:06:00 -
[468] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So you are claiming that if I flew into Null today I could ask Goonswarm for a copy of Capital ships? I know where they would tell me to stick that.
If they tell you that, it means you did nothing worth enough to deserve 1 skill book. I am quite sure their officers are ready to shell the billions to assist those they consider deserving that. Well durr of course I haven't done anything for Goonswarm to get that. But your argument was that the skill books are available to all, if I fly into Null I am a part of that all. So no they are not available to all.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: You say alliance member this and alliance member that.
What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances?
You do like we did: harden up, perform weekly corp / alliance ops to farm ISK / minerals and then go conquer moons to stop performing the boring weekly corp / alliance ops. We had full fitted capital ships replacement program, even before owning our first moon. Meh, is it just me or the current players are way softened compared to the past? So your argument here is I need to join a medium or large corp for me to be able to profit from Null and that no people in small corps or solo should be able to live in Null profitably.
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4192
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:21:00 -
[469] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? It's not hard to be more intelligent than Vaerah or Sariah. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:40:00 -
[470] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? It's not hard to be more intelligent than Vaerah or Sariah.
It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point.
You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1764
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:45:00 -
[471] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? It's not hard to be more intelligent than Vaerah or Sariah. It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point. You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay...... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
-- Albert Einstein
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2293
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 03:59:00 -
[472] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? *snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point. You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay...... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -- Albert Einstein Also Vaas. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4197
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:25:00 -
[473] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? *snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne It looks like I own SOV space in your head at this point. You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay...... Maybe you should own sov, then you'd actually understand what the problem was. Of course, being all talk, you'll never actually manage to take any space. Probably not even an unclaimed system in the middle of nowhere in Oasa or something. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:30:00 -
[474] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this. And they already are, by a mile. GǪapart from the whole Gǣbeing rewardedGǥ part, since null industry is all punishment. Quote:Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?). Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.
Nullsec already has the ability to run production to any scale that their infrastructure will support. They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.
It is a non-existent problem. HTFU!...for the children! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4197
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:34:00 -
[475] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:to any scale that their infrastructure will support. Yeah, that's kind of the problem. An entire region of fully upgraded nullsec infrastructure would still be inferior to just a handful of systems in highsec. So the scale of production is really quite limited, especially compared to the general size of alliances that hold that amount of space.
So of course we don't want to pay the bill for it. It's not worth paying it. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:39:00 -
[476] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:to any scale that their infrastructure will support. Yeah, that's kind of the problem. An entire region of fully upgraded nullsec infrastructure would still be inferior to just a handful of systems in highsec. So the scale of production is really quite limited, especially compared to the general size of alliances that hold that amount of space. So of course we don't want to pay the bill for it. It's not worth paying it. And why would you atm as it is cheaper safer and easier to do in Hi-sec.
Massively cheaper. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4198
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:39:00 -
[477] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.
It is a non-existent problem. Let me ask you honestly: If killing sleeper rats netted you about 10 mil/hour on average in a C5 or C6 with an optimal fleet comp and tactics, but still required the same fleet compositions, effort, risk, infrastructure, etc. to kill them, would you begrudge wormhole dwellers for going to highsec to run lvl 4 missions or incursions to get a reasonable income? Would you consider their requests to buff w-space PVE reasonable? Or would you tell them to HTFU and get a bigger and more expensive fleet composition? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:49:00 -
[478] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.
It is a non-existent problem. Let me ask you honestly: If killing sleeper rats netted you about 10 mil/hour on average in a C5 or C6 with an optimal fleet comp and tactics, but still required the same fleet compositions, effort, risk, infrastructure, etc. to kill them, would you begrudge wormhole dwellers for going to highsec to run lvl 4 missions or incursions to get a reasonable income? Would you consider their requests to buff w-space PVE reasonable? Or would you tell them to HTFU and get a bigger and more expensive fleet composition? HTFU, Goback2highsec I am a nullsec zealot. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4198
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:50:00 -
[479] - Quote
inb4 someone completely misses the point of analogy. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:52:00 -
[480] - Quote
Who needs analogies when in highsec you have delicious realities:
safety and rewards
and other banalities I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Goldnut Sachs
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:54:00 -
[481] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:inb4 someone completely misses the point of analogy. inb4 nullbear 100% safety in the big blue donut, we're so cool in the WHs. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4198
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:56:00 -
[482] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Who needs analogies when in highsec you have delicious realities:
safety and rewards
and other banalities And CONCORD fatalities
Dealt oh so swiftly
To undesired criminalities Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2624
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:05:00 -
[483] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.
You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:17:00 -
[484] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities. You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free. They've never set up an outpost, so they have no idea about the logistics involved (which is after all the costs of getting the parts).
In short: They're ignorant about the thing they're an "expert" in. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:31:00 -
[485] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities. You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free. So you are so familiar with Outposts so how much is the fuel bill to keep it running, for say a year?
A large POS is around 500,000 isk an hour or 4,380,000,000 a year approximately. Costing 750 - 1 bill to set up. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:33:00 -
[486] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities. You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free. They've never set up an outpost, so they have no idea about the logistics involved (which is after all the costs of getting the parts). In short: They're ignorant about the thing they're an "expert" in. I am aware of the logistics involved in setting it up (now easier with the upgrade to freighters) but it is not just the initial setup that concerns me it is the long term running compared to POSs for determination of the amount of Industry slots they should contain. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:37:00 -
[487] - Quote
How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3527
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:45:00 -
[488] - Quote
Also, let's compare stations to POSes, another really GREAT and POPULAR manufacturing alternative !
Instead of the actual method used, you know: "Jita and JF combo" I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:51:00 -
[489] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again? Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one.
For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy.
But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots.
Tippia wrote:If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.
I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time). 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.
So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400).
That is a lot of slots NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots.
Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 05:56:00 -
[490] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Also, let's compare stations to POSes, another really GREAT and POPULAR manufacturing alternative !
Instead of the actual method used, you know: "Jita and JF combo" The objective from my perspective is to allow balance across the security system types slightly favouring the more dangerous spaces and player owned structures. To allow industry to be competative in all areas of space allowing for Reward=Capital outlay*risk or at least be better than it is now.
But as so often happen you have gone for the we want it all approach, the one seen all through this thread on the side of high sec.
So I will leave both sides to their we want it all approach until some cool heads re-enter the conversation. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5536
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 06:06:00 -
[491] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again? Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one. For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy. But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots. Tippia wrote:If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.
I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time). 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same. So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400). That is a lot of slots NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots. Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.
Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 06:34:00 -
[492] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again? Well as the objective of this from my perspective is for player structures to be better than NPC ones. So the cost to use a slot would be more than that of a player owned one. For the costs of the facilities you would need to ask CCP as that is a lore thingy. But on a case of balancing, I can see the need for making an Outpost good with a slot usage isk sink involved but as to the number of slots. Tippia wrote:If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it. Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.
I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time). 2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type). 3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24). 4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade. 5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same. So an Advanced upgraded Outpost would have 350 slots of each type (Industry Type having 400). That is a lot of slots NPC stations have normally 50 manufacturing slots, 10 copy slots. 20 Invention slots. 20 material research slots and 20 time efficiency research slots. Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for. Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea? Ok so lets just look at Goonswarm and Test the biggest 2 to answer that.
Goonswarm 71 outposts Test alliance 67 Out posts
So combined 138 Outposts So under Tippias proposal they would have 48300 Manufacturing slots equaling 966 Hi-sec stations 48300 Copy Slots equaling 4830 High sec stations 48300 Invention slots equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations 48300 Material Research Stations equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations 48300 Time Efficiency Research equaling 2415 Hi-sec stations.
These calculations done at 350 per station so assuming they all have advanced upgrades but are not Industry type.
All of Hi-sec Empire contains 2996 Stations so just between the outposts owned by goonswarm and TEST would be greater than the manufacturing capability of the whole of high sec. So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5536
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:52:00 -
[493] - Quote
Quote: So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.
That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:05:00 -
[494] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote: So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.
That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems. Just wondering did you appear earlier in this thread as a pro-hi sec advocate. Your style of ridiculous comments seems similar.
But to make it easier for you I was referring to the total number of slots in non industry based stations with industry stations naturally having more. As I said earlier in this thread the cost of an out post is not that great when compared to the running costs of a POS
But I can understand your confusion after this comment "Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?" We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:06:00 -
[495] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?. Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself.
you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it.
other examples: you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice. you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice. i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice.
The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1765
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:17:00 -
[496] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?. Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself. you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it. other examples: you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice. you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice. i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice. The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0. Over the last 10 years of EvE the balances have changed plus with the introduction of new parts of the game some of the old parts have been left behind.
Other parts of course were introduced broken and have just stayed that way.
Is it your opinion no one should complain over anything.
Miners should not have complained about the barge stats, Null residents shouldn't complain about sov, Incursion runners should not have complained about their nerf and no one should have complained about Incarna, We all chose to play the game so we should all just suck it up and except the games imbalances.
What a load. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:22:00 -
[497] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:March rabbit wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪif you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?. Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics. If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears. So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself. you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it. other examples: you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice. you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice. i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice. The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0. Over the last 10 years of EvE the balances have changed plus with the introduction of new parts of the game some of the old parts have been left behind. Other parts of course were introduced broken and have just stayed that way. Is it your opinion no one should complain over anything. tried to change subject? failed.
I said what i said: it's your choice.
To answer to your "some parts are broken": yes, i can agree 0.0 sov is broken if we speak about industry. However it was "broken" from start. And everybody knows it. At the result 0.0 sov is bad for industry. You can push theme "CCP badly designed 0.0 sov industry and needs to reimplement it". However you can't speak about punishing players "for their choice to live in 0.0 sov". |
baltec1
Bat Country
5536
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:25:00 -
[498] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote: So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.
That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems. Just wondering did you appear earlier in this thread as a pro-hi sec advocate. Your style of ridiculous comments seems similar. But to make it easier for you I was referring to the total number of slots in non industry based stations with industry stations naturally having more. As I said earlier in this thread the cost of an out post is not that great when compared to the running costs of a POS But I can understand your confusion after this comment "Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?" Given that high sec stations are even cheaper than outposts I dont see why you are bringing up POS costs.
Unless you are gunning for either a slot nerf to high sec or vastly higher costs for using the slots |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:32:00 -
[499] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Well durr of course I haven't done anything for Goonswarm to get that. But your argument was that the skill books are available to all, if I fly into Null I am a part of that all. So no they are not available to all.
Are you implying that ANY corp would hand you skill books like that? I mean by your very weak rebuttal it sounds like you make a difference between GS or a null sec corp vs somewhere else corp. Nope buddy, in EvE you ask to YOUR corp mates, you should know that.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: So your argument here is I need to join a medium or large corp for me to be able to profit from Null and that no people in small corps or solo should be able to live in Null profitably.
Is it my imagination or were people who used to play EvE more intelligent?
Guess what my alts lived in Minerva Corp (another null sec corp) and guess what? All time prime time maximum we had been 10 online tops and we STILL lived perfectly well and happy.
I am sorry you can flip it however you want, but it's not necessary in EvE to be a grunt in a 3000 strong alliance. You can choose to be there but you don't need to be there. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:33:00 -
[500] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent? *snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point. You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay...... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -- Albert Einstein
Exactly. So let's create another thread like this again! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
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Posted - 2013.03.08 08:37:00 -
[501] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.
Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots.
Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction". Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:41:00 -
[502] - Quote
Solution proposal: NISK
Null sec wants to be completely autonomous. Let them. Let them effectively secede from the Union, and give them their own currency, NISK (Null Inter-Stellar Kredits) that can only be used in null to purchase null goods and services. Give null their POS upgrades and increase the number of available production slots by a factor of x10,000.
Sever all ties with "civilized" space completely, except 1 gate connection in each of the 4 empire's space. And that one connection should be on the furthest fringe system of space, as far away from any trade hub as possible. These 4 systems should be upgraded to 1.0 security and patrolled by CONCORD.
Goods produced in null space with NISK have 0 value anywhere else. Passing through one of the gates with illegal NISK goods will result in loss of ship and cargo. NISK can not be converted to ISK, or traded to other players outside of null space.
All null space residents receive a -10.0 security status that resets back to -10.0 daily, at every downtime.
Goods produced with ISK can be transported from high sec into null sec after paying a 50% sales tax.
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1766
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Posted - 2013.03.08 08:50:00 -
[503] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Frying Doom wrote:March rabbit wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:
If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.
So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice? it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself. you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it. other examples: you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice. you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice. i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice. The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0. Over the last 10 years of EvE the balances have changed plus with the introduction of new parts of the game some of the old parts have been left behind. Other parts of course were introduced broken and have just stayed that way. Is it your opinion no one should complain over anything. tried to change subject? failed. I said what i said: it's your choice. To answer to your "some parts are broken": yes, i can agree 0.0 sov is broken if we speak about industry. However it was "broken" from start. And everybody knows it. At the result 0.0 sov is bad for industry. You can push theme "CCP badly designed 0.0 sov industry and needs to reimplement it". However you can't speak about punishing players "for their choice to live in 0.0 sov". Ok as the current sov system was not here from the start might I suggest you learn more about EvE before commenting. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1766
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Posted - 2013.03.08 08:51:00 -
[504] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote: So yeah I do feel that would be unbalanced and having gone over the numbers like this I would be more inclined to say 5-10% of the amount you want would be balanced.
That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems. Just wondering did you appear earlier in this thread as a pro-hi sec advocate. Your style of ridiculous comments seems similar. But to make it easier for you I was referring to the total number of slots in non industry based stations with industry stations naturally having more. As I said earlier in this thread the cost of an out post is not that great when compared to the running costs of a POS But I can understand your confusion after this comment "Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?" Given that high sec stations are even cheaper than outposts I dont see why you are bringing up POS costs. Unless you are gunning for either a slot nerf to high sec or vastly higher costs for using the slots try option B..So bingo for you.
You might have read the rest of the thread where I pointed that out very clearly. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1766
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Posted - 2013.03.08 08:54:00 -
[505] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.
Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots. Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction". Most high sec stations do not have manufacturing and/or Material research. So with the numbers tippia gave the for example Copy slots would be, well a hell of a lot more than the whole of Hi and lo sec just on the slots from Goonswarms out posts let alone TESTs and the other alliances. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
584
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:02:00 -
[506] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Ok as the current sov system was not here from the start might I suggest you learn more about EvE before commenting. ok. then let me know when outposts got their slots reduced? What did CCP say when they made this change?
Or let's speak about POSes: when they lost they refining efficiency?
Or maybe once outposts couldn't be recaptured?
Maybe you can even show the point in time when industry in 0.0 "sov" space wasn't bad?
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1767
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Posted - 2013.03.08 09:15:00 -
[507] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Ok as the current sov system was not here from the start might I suggest you learn more about EvE before commenting. ok. then let me know when outposts got their slots reduced? What did CCP say when they made this change? Or let's speak about POSes: when they lost they refining efficiency? Or maybe once outposts couldn't be recaptured? Maybe you can even show the point in time when industry in 0.0 "sov" space wasn't bad? how about you show me these same things from before the release of Castor
You were the one claiming these things were here from the start.
March rabbit wrote:However it was "broken" from start. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1767
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:18:00 -
[508] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Solution proposal: NISK
Null sec wants to be completely autonomous. Let them. Let them effectively secede from the Union, and give them their own currency, NISK (Null Inter-Stellar Kredits) that can only be used in null to purchase null goods and services. Give null their POS upgrades and increase the number of available production slots by a factor of x10,000.
Sever all ties with "civilized" space completely, except 1 gate connection in each of the 4 empire's space. And that one connection should be on the furthest fringe system of space, as far away from any trade hub as possible. These 4 systems should be upgraded to 1.0 security and patrolled by CONCORD.
Goods produced in null space with NISK have 0 value anywhere else. Passing through one of the gates with illegal NISK goods will result in loss of ship and cargo. NISK can not be converted to ISK, or traded to other players outside of null space.
All null space residents receive a -10.0 security status that resets back to -10.0 daily, at every downtime.
Goods produced with ISK can be transported from high sec into null sec after paying a 50% sales tax.
Why would anyone export anything as it would instantly be worthless.
You might just say you are concerned about Null having a working industry as you would have to compete with more people and the markets would not just be in Hi-sec. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:32:00 -
[509] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.
Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots. Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction". Most high sec stations do not have manufacturing and/or Material research. So with the numbers tippia gave the for example Copy slots would be, well a hell of a lot more than the whole of Hi and lo sec just on the slots from Goonswarms out posts let alone TESTs and the other alliances.
Well as I said she / he starts with a concept but being partisan then proceeds ninjaing numbers to push her / his cause. The basic concept is not totally flawed though as indeed one can only have outpost per system.
Where I see a flaw is the research slots. In hi sec you don't usually see 1 corp completely filling every station slots and filling every moon with their POSes. This achieves a sort of "statistical balance" between the various hi sec inhabitants. Plus stations costing less than POSes make POS spamming a bad choice.
In null you could create a "science star" system totally full of POSes + station and - if the requested hi sec nerfs go through - spamming POSes will be as or more convenient than upkeeping the equivalent hi sec slots and that will lead to some totally unbalanced null sec slot monsters.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8037
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:36:00 -
[510] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Frankly I thought my position (as you can only have one per system) of 50% of what you are requesting, with 75% as an out side was frankly a bit unbalanced towards outposts given the extra risk involved in an Outpost. but the fact that you will not take less than what is a massive number of slots is frankly a bit naive as you would frankly be lucky to get 50% of what was asked for.
Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots. Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction". Most high sec stations do not have manufacturing and/or Material research. So with the numbers tippia gave the for example Copy slots would be, well a hell of a lot more than the whole of Hi and lo sec just on the slots from Goonswarms out posts let alone TESTs and the other alliances. Well as I said she / he starts with a concept but being partisan then proceeds ninjaing numbers to push her / his cause. The basic concept is not totally flawed though as indeed one can only have outpost per system. Where I see a flaw is the research slots. In hi sec you don't usually see 1 corp completely filling every station slots and filling every moon with their POSes. This achieves a sort of "statistical balance" between the various hi sec inhabitants. Plus stations costing less than POSes make POS spamming a bad choice. In null you could create a "science star" system totally full of POSes + station and - if the requested hi sec nerfs go through - spamming POSes will be as or more convenient than upkeeping the equivalent hi sec slots and that will lead to some totally unbalanced null sec slot monsters.
As unbalanced as 5 hi-sec systems being able to outproduce the entirity of sov 0.0?
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
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Goldnut Sachs
2
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Posted - 2013.03.08 09:42:00 -
[511] - Quote
what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:46:00 -
[512] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: As unbalanced as 5 hi-sec systems being able to outproduce the entirity of sov 0.0?
Shallow one liners like this are so Malcanis 2.0.
1.0 and with his law in signature was different and very worth of CSM 8.
Now tell me in the post above where did I say that null sec slots are fine or that hi sec is balanced with null sec.
What I say is that Tippia's concept is OK-ish but have to take care that sov null sec is not etherogeneous like hi sec his, so the combined potential of the facilities has to be carefully calculated. With an hi sec change making NPC slots costing as much as POS slots, then spamming POSes becomes an option. An option too good to pass on in a controlled sov system. Slap a number of those systems all around and you have one alliance out-researching a similar portion of hi sec players.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8038
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:46:00 -
[513] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis
Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:50:00 -
[514] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec.
The one repeating your own, self defeatist mantra here is you.
Do you even understand that my alts had (and still partly have) enough POSes that I only get huge advantages by any possible POS buff and NPC nerf? And despite that I don't immediately hop in the "I ONLY SEE MY OWN PROFIT FIRST" bandwagon, because I can understand others who are not yet at a certain progress and would be blasted by some of the absurd proposals being written in these threads.
Anyway I am all for making hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots.
You are raining on the ocean here, sorry.
The only things that I am totally against is when people make choices knowing too well about the drawbacks and then come on the forums: not only to have the drawbacks removed (most are stupid drawbacks indeed) but also to have others be damaged in the process. That reeks of spoiled people who refuse to accept the responsibility of their choices and actually reverse them on somebody else. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Goldnut Sachs
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:53:00 -
[515] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. It's perfectly fine and dandy considering because it is vital that all the gimmick 3 alt corps of highsec cannot bear to have a hair nerfed from the teet of low cost casual-newbie-friendly highsec npc stations, or eve will die, it's literally our fault that we try to blow up all neutrals in sov space. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 09:59:00 -
[516] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. It's perfectly fine and dandy considering because it is vital that all the gimmick 3 alt corps of highsec cannot bear to have a hair nerfed from the teet of low cost casual-newbie-friendly highsec npc stations, or eve will die, it's literally our fault that we try to blow up all neutrals in sov space. All our history is mankind competing over limited resources. If resources were not so limited the need to defend so many of them would not be so needed, Note I said not so limited, not stupidly over abundant.
Of course this would also be less of a problem if Sov Null actually had to use its space as well as defend it in order to upgrade or keep it.
Nor would Empire be dependent on NPC facilities if their was an alternative that while requiring more work provided greater bonuses. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8038
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:06:00 -
[517] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. It's perfectly fine and dandy considering because it is vital that all the gimmick 3 alt corps of highsec cannot bear to have a hair nerfed from the teet of low cost casual-newbie-friendly highsec npc stations, or eve will die, it's literally our fault that we try to blow up all neutrals in sov space.
Oh!
Well now I understand, thanks for your concise and clear explaination, good sir! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:06:00 -
[518] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. The one repeating your own, self defeatist mantra here is you. Do you even understand that my alts had (and still partly have) enough POSes that I only get huge advantages by any possible POS buff and NPC nerf? And despite that I don't immediately hop in the "I ONLY SEE MY OWN PROFIT FIRST" bandwagon, because I can understand others who are not yet at a certain progress and would be blasted by some of the absurd proposals being written in these threads. Anyway I am all for making hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots. You are raining on the ocean here, sorry. The only things that I am totally against is when people make choices knowing too well about the drawbacks and then come on the forums: not only to have the drawbacks removed (most are stupid drawbacks indeed) but also to have others be damaged in the process. That reeks of spoiled people who refuse to accept the responsibility of their choices and actually reverse them on somebody else. Ok that was fairly reasonable.
I myself am not really doing this for personal profits, I with 1 POS would not benefit greatly as while I gain some isk from manufacturing, I gain most of mine from PI and Mining.
Considering you have mostly covered my proposals of "hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots." Well close enough anyway as I would like NPC slightly higher and by slightly I mean 1 or 2%
Th only one you did not cover their was the lowering of NPC facilities to a 30% base rate but that is only slightly more training and an implant to achieve perfect refine. It is definitely not manufacturing/research skills as they could be used on NPC or POS facilities. So not sure if you are meaning me. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8038
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:08:00 -
[519] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Goldnut Sachs wrote:what part of statistical balance do you not understand, Malcanis Well I guess the part where it's all perfectly fine and dandy for sov 0.0 to have 3% of the production capacity of hi-sec, but an EVE-killing catastrophe if sov 0.0 has more production capacity than hi-sec. The one repeating your own, self defeatist mantra here is you. Do you even understand that my alts had (and still partly have) enough POSes that I only get huge advantages by any possible POS buff and NPC nerf? And despite that I don't immediately hop in the "I ONLY SEE MY OWN PROFIT FIRST" bandwagon, because I can understand others who are not yet at a certain progress and would be blasted by some of the absurd proposals being written in these threads. Anyway I am all for making hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots. You are raining on the ocean here, sorry. The only things that I am totally against is when people make choices knowing too well about the drawbacks and then come on the forums: not only to have the drawbacks removed (most are stupid drawbacks indeed) but also to have others be damaged in the process. That reeks of spoiled people who refuse to accept the responsibility of their choices and actually reverse them on somebody else.
Yeah I guess our choice to only ever build one station in a system was one we didn't fully think through. And our choice to pay sov bills may have been, in retrospect, a mistake. And our choice to build manufacturing outposts with only 4 office slots is one that we now both rue and lament. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8038
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:13:00 -
[520] - Quote
I also feel that we should urgently reconsider our choice not to build the 1,361 amarr outposts that it would take to equal hi-sec's production capacity. While it is true that it would cost ~34 trillion ISK to do so, and would still leave us looking at a similarly sized project to match the research capacity hi-sec has, surely that's a small price to pay! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:21:00 -
[521] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Considering you have mostly covered my proposals of "hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots." Well close enough anyway as I would like NPC slightly higher and by slightly I mean 1 or 2%
The exact mechanics would have to be based on some sort of moving average, taking into account the ever changing fuels costs. A plus delta could be considered as incentive for POS owners to have also to pay the structures in advance (amortization costs), I am really forcing myself staying neutral on this, because as I said, the more the POSes improve the better I do .
Frying Doom wrote: Th only one you did not cover their was the lowering of NPC facilities to a 30% base rate but that is only slightly more training and an implant to achieve perfect refine. It is definitely not manufacturing/research skills as they could be used on NPC or POS facilities. So not sure if you are meaning me.
I did not cover NPC facilities to 30% base because we already have some of them in hi sec (and NPC null) and some experiments on those would indicate that:
- The loss for an established character is low enough to not impact a sufficient deal to justify such a vast game change.
- The loss for a new player is high enough to screw them royally off and push well away their ability to start competing in the game. EvE needs all but some additional though wall thrown in the face of new players to keep the ongoing players turnover. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
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Posted - 2013.03.08 10:29:00 -
[522] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Considering you have mostly covered my proposals of "hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots." Well close enough anyway as I would like NPC slightly higher and by slightly I mean 1 or 2%
The exact mechanics would have to be based on some sort of moving average, taking into account the ever changing fuels costs. A plus delta could be considered as incentive for POS owners to have also to pay the structures in advance (amortization costs), I am really forcing myself staying neutral on this, because as I said, the more the POSes improve the better I do . Frying Doom wrote: Th only one you did not cover their was the lowering of NPC facilities to a 30% base rate but that is only slightly more training and an implant to achieve perfect refine. It is definitely not manufacturing/research skills as they could be used on NPC or POS facilities. So not sure if you are meaning me.
I did not cover NPC facilities to 30% base because we already have some of them in hi sec (and NPC null) and some experiments on those would indicate that: - The loss for an established character is low enough to not impact a sufficient deal to justify such a vast game change. - The loss for a new player is high enough to screw them royally off and push well away their ability to start competing in the game. EvE needs all but some additional though wall thrown in the face of new players to keep the ongoing players turnover. While disliking NPC facilities I could see myself failing to argue on the 30% refine so long as the basis of a POS and Outpost refine was using the same calculations as a hi-sec 50% refinery, excluding the reputation equation of course. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:33:00 -
[523] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Yeah I guess our choice to only ever build one station in a system was one we didn't fully think through. And our choice to pay sov bills may have been, in retrospect, a mistake. And our choice to build manufacturing outposts with only 4 office slots is one that we now both rue and lament.
Once again read what's written: "most are stupid drawbacks indeed".
Actually I am surprised none of you super-pro null guys ever mentioned how SH!TTY is to live at a null or WH POS, I hated the terrible tortures tied with fitting and un(packaging) ships in null sec so much that I did not even feel the research slots issue compared to that.
To return to the reply: having 4 office slots and whatever is irrelevant to the background principle.
In facit it is your choice (like it was MY choice and I ACCEPTED it without crying later) to go there despite the limitations, the limitations did not rain on you like a storm on a clear sky day they were well evident before hand.
There has not been a "breach of contract" by CCP, CCP are not due to refund you for your choices.
As I said pages ago, CCP hopefully will greatly improve the null sec facilities but that's an act of kindness (and business savy) off them, not a forcibly due act.
You are not entitled to what you were not promised to begin with.
Yes hi seccers for some reason got more, too much more and EvE is unfair, cold and harsh and all that stuff.
My medicine for hi sec is known and bitter, but at least it's fair because everybody would be under the same rules.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:35:00 -
[524] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I also feel that we should urgently reconsider our choice not to build the 1,361 amarr outposts that it would take to equal hi-sec's production capacity. While it is true that it would cost ~34 trillion ISK to do so, and would still leave us looking at a similarly sized project to match the research capacity hi-sec has, surely that's a small price to pay!
Yeah because with the POS buffs you'd NEVER plant POSes to gain slots and most of all, your alliance *clearly* is 250,000 account sized so it has to deploy a similar amount of slots than those 250k hi seccers have got. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
245
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:40:00 -
[525] - Quote
Just wondering -- why does null need to meet or exceed all other space in every last way?
I mean they have the highest NPC bounty income, largest quantity of "low quality" ores, larges quantity of 'high quality" ores, so on and so forth.
So why do they need every last aspect of the game made easier and more profitable than all other space?
Won't that eliminate any and all reasons to ever actually trade for value vs "dump off" goods to other space? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3917
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:41:00 -
[526] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:While disliking NPC facilities I could see myself failing to argue on the 30% refine so long as the basis of a POS and Outpost refine was using the same calculations as a hi-sec 50% refinery, excluding the reputation equation of course.
A more functional change, that would not nuke newbies, would be to impose non immediately profitability crushing drawbacks.
With this I mean: for a new player with a 30% refine it'd be deadly to say buy an underpriced module, reprocess and sell the minerals. But what if the drawback was the inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job? A newbie would not lose tangible ISK but would lose time (which for a veteran is way more valuable than ISK) and they'd be hard capped within a newbie comfort zone that lets still them progress. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8039
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:53:00 -
[527] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Just wondering -- why does null need to meet or exceed all other space in every last way?
I mean they have the highest NPC bounty income, largest quantity of "low quality" ores, larges quantity of 'high quality" ores, so on and so forth.
So why do they need every last aspect of the game made easier and more profitable than all other space?
Won't that eliminate any and all reasons to ever actually trade for value vs "dump off" goods to other space?
Don't you think it's rather dishonest to say that we're asking for " every last aspect of the game made easier and more profitable than all other space" when 10 years of building outposts in sov 0.0 has given us just 3% of the facilities that hi-sec enjoys for free? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8039
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:54:00 -
[528] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:While disliking NPC facilities I could see myself failing to argue on the 30% refine so long as the basis of a POS and Outpost refine was using the same calculations as a hi-sec 50% refinery, excluding the reputation equation of course. A more functional change, that would not nuke newbies, would be to impose non immediately profitability crushing drawbacks. With this I mean: for a new player with a 30% refine it'd be deadly to say buy an underpriced module, reprocess and sell the minerals. But what if the drawback was the inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job? A newbie would not lose tangible ISK but would lose time (which for a veteran is way more valuable than ISK) and they'd be hard capped within a newbie comfort zone that lets still them progress.
For example, end instant refines and limit the number of refine jobs that a player can have at any one time? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Goldnut Sachs
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:00:00 -
[529] - Quote
wow again with the "i am too rich and too leet-industrialist to care either way, but think of the newbies". the proposed nerfs will be no worse than mission loot drops, and the null anomaly nerf and drone poo in null, incursion nerf, and so on.
both sides just need to stop using the newbie card. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3918
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:06:00 -
[530] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:While disliking NPC facilities I could see myself failing to argue on the 30% refine so long as the basis of a POS and Outpost refine was using the same calculations as a hi-sec 50% refinery, excluding the reputation equation of course. A more functional change, that would not nuke newbies, would be to impose non immediately profitability crushing drawbacks. With this I mean: for a new player with a 30% refine it'd be deadly to say buy an underpriced module, reprocess and sell the minerals. But what if the drawback was the inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job? A newbie would not lose tangible ISK but would lose time (which for a veteran is way more valuable than ISK) and they'd be hard capped within a newbie comfort zone that lets still them progress. For example, end instant refines and limit the number of refine jobs that a player can have at any one time?
Well, my knowledge of English is rather poor, but isn't "inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job" basically what you say? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3918
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:09:00 -
[531] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:wow again with the "i am too rich and too leet-industrialist to care either way, but think of the newbies". the proposed nerfs will be no worse than mission loot drops, and the null anomaly nerf and drone poo in null, incursion nerf, and so on.
both sides just need to stop using the newbie card.
Sadly I wish I was so altruist to fullfill the "but think of the newbies". I think of my future too, and a lot. I am TERRIFIED by my past experiences, investing years in MMOs that all tanked when they stopped bringing in new blood. So yes, newbies are really my obsession, I don't want to have wasted another 4+ years in a MMO for nothing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8039
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:10:00 -
[532] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Frying Doom wrote:While disliking NPC facilities I could see myself failing to argue on the 30% refine so long as the basis of a POS and Outpost refine was using the same calculations as a hi-sec 50% refinery, excluding the reputation equation of course. A more functional change, that would not nuke newbies, would be to impose non immediately profitability crushing drawbacks. With this I mean: for a new player with a 30% refine it'd be deadly to say buy an underpriced module, reprocess and sell the minerals. But what if the drawback was the inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job? A newbie would not lose tangible ISK but would lose time (which for a veteran is way more valuable than ISK) and they'd be hard capped within a newbie comfort zone that lets still them progress. For example, end instant refines and limit the number of refine jobs that a player can have at any one time? Well, my knowledge of English is rather poor, but isn't "inability to reprocess more than NNNN volume per day or to take NNNN hours to complete the reprocessing job" basically what you say?
It is, I was suggesting a mechanism that would define that limit rather than a station manager just going "lolnope, no reason, just because".
Also it's always seemed odd that station refines are instant. Refining takes lots of time and energy Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1049
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:14:00 -
[533] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry. So you're all for removing all income from highsec, then? There's nothing stopping people from making money in low and nullGǪ In fact, you're all for removing industry from highsec, I preseume, since there's nothing stopping people from doing that in low and null? Straw man, dont you read what you link?
I believe what he was actually doing was using your very own logic against you. Your argument is don't improve industry in null and instead make null players go to highsec to do what they want. He's asking if you'd be all right with the same attitude being applied to YOU. Lets force you to go to nullsec to do what you want to do. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8039
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:15:00 -
[534] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:wow again with the "i am too rich and too leet-industrialist to care either way, but think of the newbies". the proposed nerfs will be no worse than mission loot drops, and the null anomaly nerf and drone poo in null, incursion nerf, and so on.
both sides just need to stop using the newbie card.
Agreed Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:23:00 -
[535] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Solution proposal: NISK
Null sec wants to be completely autonomous. Let them. Let them effectively secede from the Union, and give them their own currency, NISK (Null Inter-Stellar Kredits) that can only be used in null to purchase null goods and services. Give null their POS upgrades and increase the number of available production slots by a factor of x10,000.
Sever all ties with "civilized" space completely, except 1 gate connection in each of the 4 empire's space. And that one connection should be on the furthest fringe system of space, as far away from any trade hub as possible. These 4 systems should be upgraded to 1.0 security and patrolled by CONCORD.
Goods produced in null space with NISK have 0 value anywhere else. Passing through one of the gates with illegal NISK goods will result in loss of ship and cargo. NISK can not be converted to ISK, or traded to other players outside of null space.
All null space residents receive a -10.0 security status that resets back to -10.0 daily, at every downtime.
Goods produced with ISK can be transported from high sec into null sec after paying a 50% sales tax.
Why would anyone export anything as it would instantly be worthless. You might just say you are concerned about Null having a working industry as you would have to compete with more people and the markets would not just be in Hi-sec.
Null HAS a working industry. You null bears seem to think that you need the best version of every aspect of the game available in your own back yard. That's perfectly fine with me. You all want to be special snowflakes and be above the rest of the population, I'm fine with that too.
Giving null their own currency solves all the issues at hand. You're effectively cut off from dependence on high sec industry, logistics problems are eliminated, and you're still free to build the player-based economy that you should be building anyway, but aren't. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1197
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:48:00 -
[536] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:*insanity*
Say goodbye to any T2 in highsec then. As it needs moongoo. which means, pretty much, nullsec. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Dave Stark
1926
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:50:00 -
[537] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:*insanity* Say goodbye to any T2 in highsec then. As it needs moongoo. which means, pretty much, nullsec. doesn't it also need morphite? you're tired, stop posting. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:53:00 -
[538] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:*insanity* Say goodbye to any T2 in highsec then. As it needs moongoo. which means, pretty much, nullsec.
Wait. You mean that no one area of space can have everything? Is it possible that they're in some way dependent on each other as part of a bigger picture? That interaction between the two is a necessity by design?
Say it ain't so. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:11:00 -
[539] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote: Null HAS a working industry. You null bears seem to think that you need the best version of every aspect of the game available in your own back yard. That's perfectly fine with me. You all want to be special snowflakes and be above the rest of the population, I'm fine with that too.
Giving null their own currency solves all the issues at hand. You're effectively cut off from dependence on high sec industry, logistics problems are eliminated, and you're still free to build the player-based economy that you should be building anyway, but aren't.
You are sorely mistaken. Yes, there is supercap industry in Null, and other such massive undertakings, however, a small or medium sized industry setup will fail miserably there. Not because it can't be done, but because compared to High sec, everything is just worse.
1) Risk In high sec, you are under the protectin of CONCORD, your assets are for the most part all in stations, the only assets you have that are continually 'at risk' are your POS facilities for extra ME, PE, and Copy slots. However, they also fall under the banner of CONCORD, requiring a 24 hours spool up to be put at risk(ie. wardec), plenty of time to take them out of space and put them safely in a station until things blow over. In Null sec, you either have your main assets in a station, which can become inaccessible all of a sudden due to politics, or under serious threat during an invasion. Or In a POS. The POS can be attacked at any time, and if it's put in reinforce, you will not be able to retrieve said assets, unless you successfully fend of the 2nd round of fighting. As such, your BPO's ( the most important investment for an industrialist ), will be at far greater risk than in high sec. Now, this isn't so bad on it's own.. however..
2) Logistics In high sec, you have easy access to trade hubs where you can quickly buy materials, and sell product. Moving these is an easy and quite safe task, requiring little efford or cost. In Null sec, your local market is far smaller than in empire, meaning that a lot of your product needs to be shipped out to other hubs in the area, this is not without risk, as you could be killed anywhere along the way. Moving things in large quantities would require a Jump Freighter, requiring additional costs in fuel, as a freighter is simply too big and easy target to risk. Getting your materials for production is a similar matter, you cannot simply go to your local hub, and quickly get what you need. A lot of the things you need will be unavailable or low in supply, thus requiring you to make them yourself, or import them from Empire, at again, additional costs and risks.
3) Costs Manufacturing in Highsec requires very little in costs, just the costs of your local manufacturing station's service fee and you're done. As these are abundant all over the place, and moving a few jumps to get to a place where you can setup production immediately if your main station is unavailable, is a piece of cake. In nullsec, all station manufacturing slots are very busy, as they are so rare, that the demand that is there, far outweighs the supply. Thus, you are forced to use a POS not just for research, but also for Manufacturing, meaning again, more risks involved in running your operation, as well as extra costs in fuel.
4) Profit Taking empire prices as a base, in null, the prices are generally higher. However, as manufacturing goods there is on general far more intensive and expensive as well as riskier than simply importing them, a Jump freighter pilot that buys manufactured goods in empire(or manufactres them over there), ships them out to null and sells them at a profit there, only has the cost of the fuel bill for trips, which is a lot less than the costs for running a whole manufacturing plant. Thus the margins he can set to earn a 'decent' profit, mean that an industrialist simply cannot compete.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:13:00 -
[540] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Solution proposal: NISK
Null sec wants to be completely autonomous. Let them. Let them effectively secede from the Union, and give them their own currency, NISK (Null Inter-Stellar Kredits) that can only be used in null to purchase null goods and services. Give null their POS upgrades and increase the number of available production slots by a factor of x10,000.
Sever all ties with "civilized" space completely, except 1 gate connection in each of the 4 empire's space. And that one connection should be on the furthest fringe system of space, as far away from any trade hub as possible. These 4 systems should be upgraded to 1.0 security and patrolled by CONCORD.
Goods produced in null space with NISK have 0 value anywhere else. Passing through one of the gates with illegal NISK goods will result in loss of ship and cargo. NISK can not be converted to ISK, or traded to other players outside of null space.
All null space residents receive a -10.0 security status that resets back to -10.0 daily, at every downtime.
Goods produced with ISK can be transported from high sec into null sec after paying a 50% sales tax.
Why would anyone export anything as it would instantly be worthless. You might just say you are concerned about Null having a working industry as you would have to compete with more people and the markets would not just be in Hi-sec. Null HAS a working industry. You null bears seem to think that you need the best version of every aspect of the game available in your own back yard. That's perfectly fine with me. You all want to be special snowflakes and be above the rest of the population, I'm fine with that too. Giving null their own currency solves all the issues at hand. You're effectively cut off from dependence on high sec industry, logistics problems are eliminated, and you're still free to build the player-based economy that you should be building anyway, but aren't. Us null bears, am I a member of Goonswarm? Maybe TEST? Maybe a renter corp?
Your views towards Null industry are as valid as your statement calling me a Null bear.
I have no characters in Null at all, its not profitable enough. I am an industrialist so going to an area with a lower profit is not something I would do.
But if it makes you feel better you can always call me a goonswarm alt
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:15:00 -
[541] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:*insanity* Say goodbye to any T2 in highsec then. As it needs moongoo. which means, pretty much, nullsec. Wait. You mean that no one area of space can have everything? Is it possible that they're in some way dependent on each other as part of a bigger picture? That interaction between the two is a necessity by design? Say it ain't so. It isn't so.
With your idea it would just mean wormhole dwellers would charge you 10 times as much We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:06:00 -
[542] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:*insanity* Say goodbye to any T2 in highsec then. As it needs moongoo. which means, pretty much, nullsec. Wait. You mean that no one area of space can have everything? Is it possible that they're in some way dependent on each other as part of a bigger picture? That interaction between the two is a necessity by design?Say it ain't so.
shuush you!! No one is supposed to think like that. ;) |
Goldnut Sachs
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:11:00 -
[543] - Quote
http://themittani.com/features/sov-problems-why-no-new-blood while not exactly newbies, it is also important for fledgling alliances to have enough incentive to carve out a foothold in nullsec. while most constellation may lack tech moons, the proposed improvements to industry may be the ticket, as an accessible source of income for line members who actually use the space actively as intended. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1050
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:36:00 -
[544] - Quote
Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3919
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:47:00 -
[545] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place
There's no reason to keep null sec industry below 100% of hi sec. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
585
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:57:00 -
[546] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0
the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1051
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:59:00 -
[547] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place There's no reason to keep null sec industry below 100% of hi sec.
I think highsec industry needs heavily nerfed, and nullsec brought up to above that of the new highsec level.
Though I guess some people would say "no nullsec needs to be worse, so there's some reliance on highsec, you can't have one bit of eve that does everything the best!" or whatever - but even if you allow that as a possible argument, the current level is just ridiculous |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1051
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:00:00 -
[548] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0 the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers.
High seccers not caring about balance and just wanting more and more boosts for themselves? I'm shocked. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:00:00 -
[549] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0 the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers.
Good thing we don't needs your support, since your kind can't be bothered to so much as click a louse to vote for csm lol.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1768
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:02:00 -
[550] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0 the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers. What nerf specifically are you refering too? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:15:00 -
[551] - Quote
Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest ....
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3920
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:18:00 -
[552] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest ....
I tried saying that so many times but no.
For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8048
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:24:00 -
[553] - Quote
Again, you are arguing the ontological fallacy: "because things are this way, that's the way they must be."
Since I have explained this to you at least twice, at this stage you're just trolling.
The tl;dr is that the "Nullsec = Somalia" is nothing more or less than a giant assumption that you're asserting without any evidence or analysis of why that might be other than HURR DURR NULLBEARS R ALL BIG DUMBO GANKERS DURR HURR stereotyping.
Frankly, it's beneath you, but on the other hand it does encourage me in my campaign, since if you had an argument with a shred of intellectual consistency, you'd be using that. And you're not. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:30:00 -
[554] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Again, you are arguing the ontological fallacy: "because things are this way, that's the way they must be."
Since I have explained this to you at least twice, at this stage you're just trolling.
The tl;dr is that the "Nullsec = Somalia" is nothing more or less than a giant assumption that you're asserting without any evidence or analysis of why that might be other than HURR DURR NULLBEARS R ALL BIG DUMBO GANKERS DURR HURR stereotyping.
Frankly, it's beneath you, but on the other hand it does encourage me in my campaign, since if you had an argument with a shred of intellectual consistency, you'd be using that. And you're not. To get what you want WRT industry, sovereignty rules need to change first.
You can't have the benefits of exclusivity and inclusivity at the same time, among other reasons because it's bad game design. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1051
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:31:00 -
[555] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest .... I tried saying that so many times but no. For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China.
You haven't provided any convincing arguments that industrial endeavours would never be undertaken in null other than saying "SOMALIA! BATTLEFIELD!!!111" nonsense. The reason it doesn't happen at the moment is because how easy and cheap it is in highsec is ridiculous. It's not because omg somalia battlefield, it's because of how pitiful the capabilities are - as has been discussed before, there's more slots in sobaseki than there are in entire nullsec REGIONS - and how there's at the moment no downside to using highsec instead. If the capabilities were buffed, and if there were some downside (say for example a 5% tax on slots in highsec) then I very easily see a lot more people doing their work in null. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1045
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:42:00 -
[556] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.
It is a non-existent problem. Let me ask you honestly: If killing sleeper rats netted you about 10 mil/hour on average in a C5 or C6 with an optimal fleet comp and tactics, but still required the same fleet compositions, effort, risk, infrastructure, etc. to kill them, would you begrudge wormhole dwellers for going to highsec to run lvl 4 missions or incursions to get a reasonable income? Would you consider their requests to buff w-space PVE reasonable? Or would you tell them to HTFU and get a bigger and more expensive fleet composition?
I understand what you're saying. I even understand why null wants better industry. So understand what I'm about to tell you. Nullsec has the best of almost everything everything in the game. It's rats, second only to w-space. But since we don't get bpc or mod drops worth billions, the loot froom for our sleepers might barely make up for it over time. You have Sov, no other space has that ability. You have outposts that belong to the space holding alliance. No other space has that. You have the best DED & cosmos sites in the game. You have the best incursions. You have the best ore and the best ice. You have the best PI. You have supercaps that you can cyno around. Try that in w-space: cant have supercaps cant cyno. And on top of all that you have moon-goo to net you billions of isk per month for doing nothing.
Null has not spent its time building bridges to the rest of the game. It has, instead, spent it telling CCP why it should have everything and everyone else nothing.
So, as a member of the rest of the game, your cries of disproportionate distribution of something else in the game that doesn't vastly slant the game in null's favor yet again is falling on my deaf ears especially what you're talking about wanting to do could be done if only you take that moon-goo and invest it in pos production infrastructure. As far as I'm concerned, it appears to me you just don't want to make that investment. Instead, what you want is a vast industrial complex that is immune to destruction. Oh sure, they can change hands but there is no lost investment. And in a mostly blue null, you haven't really lost anything. HTFU!...for the children! |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:47:00 -
[557] - Quote
Seems everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room.
If it were harder to move the goods from Null to Jita, then manufacturing and trade would *need* to move to where it is needed (back to null). We would once again see large hauling caravans complete with escort when trade between regions was absolutely needed.
I only say this because it is the very same argument as those who want to nerf the hell out of hisec.
Given that nerfing hisec into oblivion will also have the side effect of making new players less likely to hang onto the game long enough to see null/wh/whatever, I know which option I would prefer.
It all comes down to the same argument regarding "Power projection". This is simply "Commerce Projection".
"Jumping" made the universe too small. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:50:00 -
[558] - Quote
Just give the null-sec zealots everything they want; and a bit extra for luck.
This is not a signature. |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
585
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:53:00 -
[559] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0 the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers. Good thing we don't needs your support, since your kind can't be bothered to so much as click a louse to vote for csm lol. yea, because CSM decides what CCP will do |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
585
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:54:00 -
[560] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0 the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers. High seccers not caring about balance and just wanting more and more boosts for themselves? I'm shocked. show me one thread where high-seccer industrials requests "more boosts" |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
192
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:06:00 -
[561] - Quote
Null sec/WH>Low Sec> High Sec.
High sec isk should be deplorable, there is zero reason to lose a single ship in high sec and ISK should reflect this. It should be imposible to plex an account in high sec via missions, industry and mining to encourage people to leave. High sec faction space should be seperated low sec so as to create and island of high between all factions. Market PVP is excused as high should remain the focus for trade. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:13:00 -
[562] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest .... I tried saying that so many times but no. For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China. You haven't provided any convincing arguments that industrial endeavours would never be undertaken in null other than saying "SOMALIA! BATTLEFIELD!!!111" nonsense. The reason it doesn't happen at the moment is because how easy and cheap it is in highsec is ridiculous. It's not because omg somalia battlefield, it's because of how pitiful the capabilities are - as has been discussed before, there's more slots in sobaseki than there are in entire nullsec REGIONS - and how there's at the moment no downside to using highsec instead. If the capabilities were buffed, and if there were some downside (say for example a 5% tax on slots in highsec) then I very easily see a lot more people doing their work in null.
Owk in simple:
Null is less safe then empire? Null has less inhabitants then empire? Null has less miners then empire?
Answer to all 3 is yes , enlighten me why null should have more industry focus then empire?Industry concentrates on volumes bought/safetyness of building/close to it's resources.
I get it you want null to be far more better because you think of your own pockets like 99% of eve unfortunatly but i see no reason why null should have equal or more industry options then eve.I DO agree it needs more though , but still less then empire.
Better minerals/ratting etc is what null should have that i agree on.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:15:00 -
[563] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Null sec/WH>Low Sec> High Sec.
High sec isk should be deplorable, there is zero reason to lose a single ship in high sec and ISK should reflect this. It should be imposible to plex an account in high sec via missions, industry and mining to encourage people to leave. High sec faction space should be seperated low sec so as to create and island of high between all factions. Market PVP is excused as high should remain the focus for trade.
"there is zero reason to lose a single ship in high sec"
What? How blind you are to the reality of new players? New players learning this game will lose ships to belt rats, lose ships on early missions and will without a doubt lose ships during wardecs and lose a hauler trying to move their entire life supply to greener pastures. Oh, and they will lose a ship or two to suicide ganking or baiting.
Seriously, you are blind to just how difficult this game is to learn in the early days. The average player will lose a lot. And when their income (today) in hisec is slave level survival wages, it hurts to lose what little they have.
Cutting down hisec opportunities will only curb game growth. I would rather see more "reason" to move on to low/null/wh space. Buff them--don't nerf the terrible excuse for an early game experience. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:25:00 -
[564] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: High sec isk should be deplorable, there is zero reason to lose a single ship in high sec and ISK should reflect this..
Eve-killl brewlar:
March 1 kill :1 in empire February 4 kills : 2 in empire January 7 kills : 7 in empire
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5539
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:25:00 -
[565] - Quote
flakeys wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest .... I tried saying that so many times but no. For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China. You haven't provided any convincing arguments that industrial endeavours would never be undertaken in null other than saying "SOMALIA! BATTLEFIELD!!!111" nonsense. The reason it doesn't happen at the moment is because how easy and cheap it is in highsec is ridiculous. It's not because omg somalia battlefield, it's because of how pitiful the capabilities are - as has been discussed before, there's more slots in sobaseki than there are in entire nullsec REGIONS - and how there's at the moment no downside to using highsec instead. If the capabilities were buffed, and if there were some downside (say for example a 5% tax on slots in highsec) then I very easily see a lot more people doing their work in null. Owk in simple: 7 Null is less safe then empire? Null has less inhabitants then empire? Null has less miners then empire? Answer to all 3 is yes , enlighten me why null should have more industry focus then empire?Industry concentrates on volumes bought/safetyness of building/close to it's resources. I get it you want null to be far more better because you think of your own pockets like 99% of eve unfortunatly but i see no reason why null should have equal or more industry options then eve.I DO agree it needs more though , but still less then empire. Better minerals/ratting etc is what null should have that i agree on.
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:37:00 -
[566] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:flakeys wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest .... I tried saying that so many times but no. For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China. You haven't provided any convincing arguments that industrial endeavours would never be undertaken in null other than saying "SOMALIA! BATTLEFIELD!!!111" nonsense. The reason it doesn't happen at the moment is because how easy and cheap it is in highsec is ridiculous. It's not because omg somalia battlefield, it's because of how pitiful the capabilities are - as has been discussed before, there's more slots in sobaseki than there are in entire nullsec REGIONS - and how there's at the moment no downside to using highsec instead. If the capabilities were buffed, and if there were some downside (say for example a 5% tax on slots in highsec) then I very easily see a lot more people doing their work in null. Owk in simple: 7 Null is less safe then empire? Null has less inhabitants then empire? Null has less miners then empire? Answer to all 3 is yes , enlighten me why null should have more industry focus then empire?Industry concentrates on volumes bought/safetyness of building/close to it's resources. I get it you want null to be far more better because you think of your own pockets like 99% of eve unfortunatly but i see no reason why null should have equal or more industry options then eve.I DO agree it needs more though , but still less then empire. Better minerals/ratting etc is what null should have that i agree on. The idea behind more risk is more reward.
And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
585
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:42:00 -
[567] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The idea behind more risk is more reward. this is just great idea. Nothing more.
Just say me: should i get bigger payout from regular lvl4 if i will not tank my carebear mobile and increase my risk to lose it? Nope.
So this great idea can't be used as-is.
|
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1046
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:50:00 -
[568] - Quote
Null-sec shouldn't just hand out greater rewards. Methods of establishing structures that provide the increased rewards should be implemented. So if you put some effort in creating infrastructure and protecting it from destruction you should be able to get more slots, more rats, more ores of the kind you want, more ISK, more everything. If you can create it and if you can defend it.
Though considering the state of F&I and how quickly and thoroughly any thread about 0.0 is derailed and spammed over, I highly doubt there will ever be any coordinated attempt to develop ideas on how such mechanics could be implemented. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
508
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:51:00 -
[569] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The idea behind more risk is more reward.
Sometimes the risk is too high to be balanced by quantity rewards and only quality rewards will do.
Nullsec industry is already better in that you can do things with it that you cannot do in highsec. People do those things because they value them enough for the risk to be worthwhile.
Adding more things that you can only do with nullsec industry is something that can work, and something that I expect to see in the future.
Trying to make nullsec "better highsec than highsec" just isn't in the cards, and I doubt the people lobbying for nullsec industry to be better at basic production than highsec industry would really be happy with the results if they got what they are asking for. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
baltec1
Bat Country
5539
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:54:00 -
[570] - Quote
Why do you lot hate industrial players?
You are literally arguing the case for industrial player to be limited to high sec and punishing them for wanting to move outto the more dangerous areas of space. |
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:57:00 -
[571] - Quote
That's your answer ?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8051
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:01:00 -
[572] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:baltec1 wrote: The idea behind more risk is more reward.
Sometimes the risk is too high to be balanced by quantity rewards and only quality rewards will do. Nullsec industry is already better in that you can do things with it that you cannot do in highsec. People do those things because they value them enough for the risk to be worthwhile. Adding more things that you can only do with nullsec industry is something that can work, and something that I expect to see in the future. Trying to make nullsec "better highsec than highsec" just isn't in the cards, and I doubt the people lobbying for nullsec industry to be better at basic production than highsec industry would really be happy with the results if they got what they are asking for.
Please tell me about doing invention in 0.0. Where do I get the datacores from? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
baltec1
Bat Country
5540
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:03:00 -
[573] - Quote
flakeys wrote:That's your answer ? Its the only one that makes sense. Why else would people want to stop industrialist from gaining more reward for greater risks? |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
508
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:11:00 -
[574] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Why do you lot hate industrial players?
You are literally arguing the case for industrial player to be limited to high sec and punishing them for wanting to move outto the more dangerous areas of space. For basic industry: absolutely.
I have argued in the past that advanced manufacturing should be booted from NPC stations, but there is every reason for highsec to be the ultimate bastion of unlimited T1 subcap, module, and ammo production.
Because those are the hard base of the game and as such there should be no brakes on them.
If you want to build a million rifters to blow up by the Jita undock, you should be able to do so.
The miners would love you for such an ambitious project, of course.
There is nothing actually stopping people from doing T1 production in nullsec at levels much higher than they currently do, but there are higher priority things for industrialists to do. Advanced industry, primarily represented by supercap production, but also in the form of regular capital ship production, moon mining, and drug manufacturing.
These are all industry, and they are all better than highsec.
Obviously people aren't satisfied with that, but that doesn't mean that anything is at all out of balance here. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:12:00 -
[575] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:flakeys wrote:That's your answer ? Its the only one that makes sense. Why else would people want to stop industrialist from gaining more reward for greater risks?
Because in the case of industry it makes absolutely NO sense that nullsec would have more industry focus then empire for the simple reasons i stated above.It's not because you take more risk that everything should be better/higher.
Hey i got an idea let's make a raven build in nullsec 30% stronger/better then one build in empire because hey risk risk risk .....
I'm known for being anti-goon , blueballblob and all that but i try to be rational in arguements like this.Keeping both null/high in mind but it's hard seeig as both sides mostly only look out for their own interests.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
508
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:18:00 -
[576] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:baltec1 wrote: The idea behind more risk is more reward.
Sometimes the risk is too high to be balanced by quantity rewards and only quality rewards will do. Nullsec industry is already better in that you can do things with it that you cannot do in highsec. People do those things because they value them enough for the risk to be worthwhile. Adding more things that you can only do with nullsec industry is something that can work, and something that I expect to see in the future. Trying to make nullsec "better highsec than highsec" just isn't in the cards, and I doubt the people lobbying for nullsec industry to be better at basic production than highsec industry would really be happy with the results if they got what they are asking for. Please tell me about doing invention in 0.0. Where do I get the datacores from? You get them from your research agents, of course ;)
Oh, wait, sov nullsec is all about *player generated content* so you don't have any agents of any kind there.
You know, almost like someone set up the game to require trade between different regions of space or something silly like that.
Where are these overprivileged highsec industrialists getting their morphite and moon minerals from for their T2 production?
The nullsec players are selling it to them?
Well, there's an easy answer to nerfing highsec industry right there, isn't it? http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
56
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:22:00 -
[577] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Again, you are arguing the ontological fallacy: "because things are this way, that's the way they must be."
Since I have explained this to you at least twice, at this stage you're just trolling.
The tl;dr is that the "Nullsec = Somalia" is nothing more or less than a giant assumption that you're asserting without any evidence or analysis of why that might be other than HURR DURR NULLBEARS R ALL BIG DUMBO GANKERS DURR HURR stereotyping.
Frankly, it's beneath you, but on the other hand it does encourage me in my campaign, since if you had an argument with a shred of intellectual consistency, you'd be using that. And you're not.
I somewhat agree with you, Malcanis. Industry in null sec, while certainly more risky in some ways than high sec, it is infinitely more safe while under the umbrella of security of the major power blocks. And that is where I cease to agree with you on just about any other point of your entire platform.
Buffing null industry WILL NOT encourage null sec growth. There WILL NOT be indy corps lining up to move out to null. Buffing null industry will only further line the pockets of those at the top of the major alliances and nothing more. I can't decide if this crusade you're on makes you a hopeless optimist or an egregious liar. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5542
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:24:00 -
[578] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: There is nothing actually stopping people from doing T1 production in nullsec at levels much higher than they currently do, but there are higher priority things for industrialists to do. Advanced industry, primarily represented by supercap production, but also in the form of regular capital ship production, moon mining, and drug manufacturing.
These are all industry, and they are all better than highsec.
Obviously people aren't satisfied with that, but that doesn't mean that anything is at all out of balance here.
The cost stops us from dropping hundreds of towers and fueling them. And the reason why we only build supers out here is because we lack the slots to keep our fleets stocked with enough ammo.
So it turns out, goons are better freinds go industrialists than the high sec bears! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3923
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:25:00 -
[579] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Again, you are arguing the ontological fallacy: "because things are this way, that's the way they must be."
Since I have explained this to you at least twice, at this stage you're just trolling.
I am replying to Flakeys not you, what for you is "trolling" may mean something else for him.
Malcanis wrote: The tl;dr is that the "Nullsec = Somalia" is nothing more or less than a giant assumption that you're asserting without any evidence or analysis of why that might be other than HURR DURR NULLBEARS R ALL BIG DUMBO GANKERS DURR HURR stereotyping.
"Without any evidence or analysis of why that might me"?
Let's see, it's "null sec" aka "lawless sec". It's a warzone exactly like in Somalia and other similar zones, where a "war lord" and his entourage hold a piece of domain. Like in Somalia they hire / convince a number of "grunts" to be with / work for them and hold such territory. Like in Somalia, any time of the night or day another war lord may decide to mount an attack to take that territory. In other war places (not Somalia), during an attrition or full scale war, one of the involved factions planted structures to symbolically or practically begin claiming a stake on the contested territory. If the attack succeeds the new lord comes in and takes their head quarter, possibly kills how many losing guys he feels fit and takes their stuff. Once finished he starts putting up defenses on his new territory expansion.
Now, let YOU tell me sov nullsec is nothing like this if you can.
Sure, some coalitions want null sec to become a sort of "Sim City" and this might even be commendable and good. But it's not born like this and when I was there in all of my "BIG DUMBO GANKERness" I knew that every day could be the last day. Plus for my alts - who unlike this character were in a lesser alliance - it was even worse. They had to live at a POS and every single day all I could do was to hope not to get such POS reinforced and eventually lose everything.
[quote=Malcanis] Frankly, it's beneath you/quote]
Doh, another snotty elite pretending to evangelize the unwashed masses.
Your evolution into just another CFC talking mouth is now complete. Grats .
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:25:00 -
[580] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Malcanis wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:baltec1 wrote: The idea behind more risk is more reward.
Sometimes the risk is too high to be balanced by quantity rewards and only quality rewards will do. Nullsec industry is already better in that you can do things with it that you cannot do in highsec. People do those things because they value them enough for the risk to be worthwhile. Adding more things that you can only do with nullsec industry is something that can work, and something that I expect to see in the future. Trying to make nullsec "better highsec than highsec" just isn't in the cards, and I doubt the people lobbying for nullsec industry to be better at basic production than highsec industry would really be happy with the results if they got what they are asking for. Please tell me about doing invention in 0.0. Where do I get the datacores from? You get them from your research agents, of course ;) Oh, wait, sov nullsec is all about *player generated content* so you don't have any agents of any kind there. You know, almost like someone set up the game to require trade between different regions of space or something silly like that. Where are these overprivileged highsec industrialists getting their morphite and moon minerals from for their T2 production? The nullsec players are selling it to them? Well, there's an easy answer to nerfing highsec industry right there, isn't it?
I'm starting to like your 'work' :)
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3923
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:35:00 -
[581] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote:Industry in reality will allways be done there where it is safest .... I tried saying that so many times but no. For some reason they are strongly convinced that manufacturing high tech stuff in the middle of a Somalian battlefield is the most natural thing ever and HAS to be vastly more $$$ rewarding than doing it in China. You haven't provided any convincing arguments that industrial endeavours would never be undertaken in null other than saying "SOMALIA! BATTLEFIELD!!!111" nonsense. The reason it doesn't happen at the moment is because how easy and cheap it is in highsec is ridiculous. It's not because omg somalia battlefield, it's because of how pitiful the capabilities are - as has been discussed before, there's more slots in sobaseki than there are in entire nullsec REGIONS - and how there's at the moment no downside to using highsec instead. If the capabilities were buffed, and if there were some downside (say for example a 5% tax on slots in highsec) then I very easily see a lot more people doing their work in null.
Hey, how's relevant to talk about Sobaseki to fabricate an argument off a completely different region, eh? Guess what, if Sobaseki got their stuff it's because somebody planned it to be so.
If some don't like the status quo, they should ask CCP to change is without crapping all over low sec, NPC null and hi sec. As for 5% tax, that's largely insufficient.
But as both you and Malcanis fail to see yet Flakeys (a guy who can eath both of you while making the billions) got the concept in 2 lines.
There's no high tier activities without a framework of mechanics that currently don't exist and that would provide staying pre-conditions to those activities to happen.
With 5% tax or even 30% nobody will budge.
Sobaseki is not overpowered because it got slots, it's overpowered because it got hi sec. As long as "hi sec" exists you won't get a major industry running outside of it.
A little demo? Go low sec, where there are thousands of unused slots, there are even some decent moons yet industry simply does not exist on any relevant scale.
So, slots are not the answer, they are just a little bit in a larger vision that the "nerf hi sec nao and add slots to null" crowd don't bring on the table.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:38:00 -
[582] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: There is nothing actually stopping people from doing T1 production in nullsec at levels much higher than they currently do, but there are higher priority things for industrialists to do. Advanced industry, primarily represented by supercap production, but also in the form of regular capital ship production, moon mining, and drug manufacturing.
These are all industry, and they are all better than highsec.
Obviously people aren't satisfied with that, but that doesn't mean that anything is at all out of balance here.
The cost stops us from dropping hundreds of towers and fueling them. And the reason why we only build supers out here is because we lack the slots to keep our fleets stocked with enough ammo. So it turns out, goons are better freinds go industrialists than the high sec bears! Funny, I've also been advocating for the POS update that should hopefully make putting up hundreds of POSes in any space not a problem because they can be individual assets instead of corporate assets.
But the simple fact is that *one* titan production line could be instead *60* module production lines. We aren't talking about hundreds of POSes to meet the demand, we are talking dozens.
It's an economic decision not to do that, and by my reckoning it is a wise one, because you can only anchor CSAA's in sovereign nullsec systems, and there isn't enough demand for the output of T1 and T2 production lines in nullsec to make it worth maintaining a tower under the current system just to produce those.
I haven't seen any proposed set of changes that would change that math other than improving POSes for everyone, so that individual industrialists can make the choice to take the risk of putting those manufacturing lines out there without having to rely on chokepoint individuals with the permissions to manage the POSes. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1222
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:40:00 -
[583] - Quote
It's actually not just Risk Vs Reward.
Null sec industry will constantly suffer as long as there isn't an easy way to access goods to as many bodies as possible to promote that industry.
So, with the restricted travel and station access, you will always have a difficult time with null industry thriving until a better null sec exists in terms of game mechanics for players to interact.
Where I am. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3923
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:41:00 -
[584] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec shouldn't just hand out greater rewards. Methods of establishing structures that provide the increased rewards should be implemented. So if you put some effort in creating infrastructure and protecting it from destruction you should be able to get more slots, more rats, more ores of the kind you want, more ISK, more everything. If you can create it and if you can defend it.
Though considering the state of F&I and how quickly and thoroughly any thread about 0.0 is derailed and spammed over, I highly doubt there will ever be any coordinated attempt to develop ideas on how such mechanics could be implemented.
If they weren't a bunch of elitists who consider everybody else a lesser, weren't always in the "patient teacher trying to educate dumbs" attitude, if some of them did not spam "we are here to ruin your game" for years...
... you know these things kind of stick on the general playerbase and then it becomes just a Karma is a b!tch and bites back factor. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3923
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:44:00 -
[585] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote: Buffing null industry WILL NOT encourage null sec growth. There WILL NOT be indy corps lining up to move out to null. Buffing null industry will only further line the pockets of those at the top of the major alliances and nothing more. I can't decide if this crusade you're on makes you a hopeless optimist or an egregious liar.
You missed the third option: "a puppet". Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3923
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:54:00 -
[586] - Quote
To recap:
- A change (once again) to how sov mechanics work is in order and should be the first to be implemented since its effect ripple on everything else. Most of all, until there's not a player created way to ensure the basic pre-requisites to create a strong player created industry and even alliance empire, it's futile to talk about buffs or nerfs. Otherwise we just risk getting a player driven low sec, that is an industry failure. Plenty of slots and refineries and all in the same system (basically what are the current requests). Yet it's still a failure.
- A buff to null sec industry is long overdue. Both as number of slots and refinery efficiency. They'll soon discover how nice it plays with the high end minerals values tanking ever further but still...
- A change (I can't even call it a nerf) to hi sec slots for *not newbie* players to pay as much as POS owners seems a first and quick to implement step towards bringing fairness. Fairness not between null sec and high but between any POS owners vs NPC station users. It's important to distinguish which game mechanics favor whom.
If certain talking mouths presented this as a POS owner vs NPC station freeloaders argument and not as a null sec vs hi sec, they'd have gained total support by many others who indeed poured in money and effort and risk (at least of wardec) to field their own structures.
The wrong way to do it: put it all into some James315-esque, look "up to down" ideology blurb and start smacking everybody else who don't blindly agree with it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
884
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:02:00 -
[587] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:If certain talking mouths presented this as a POS owner vs NPC station freeloaders argument and not as a null sec vs hi sec, they'd have gained total support by many others who indeed poured in money and effort and risk (at least of wardec) to field their own structures.
.
As someone who uses multiple pos's i still would not 'argue' for a change.Currently it is quite easy either you take the cheap station way or you take the more expensive but no waiting line way.It's a free choice open to everyone .
What i would like is that pos's would just die off or can be killed without a wardec needed if they are not fueled for longer then a month to make the above choice easier to make and finalise.
Again it's about seeing it in it's total aspect and not just the way 'you yourself' use this/play.
Something that we see WAY too little on the forums.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
57
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:06:00 -
[588] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Again it's about seeing it in it's total aspect and not just the way 'you yourself' use this/play.
Something that we see WAY too little on the forums.
What is this objectivity you speak of? Heretic! Burn him at the stake!
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:09:00 -
[589] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Why do you lot hate industrial players?
You are literally arguing the case for industrial player to be limited to high sec and punishing them for wanting to move outto the more dangerous areas of space.
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
Then, null-seccers can just go back to whinging about how hard it is to gank miners, Concord, hi-sec mission runners, war-decs and NPCs etc. This is not a signature. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5543
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:32:00 -
[590] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3924
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:35:00 -
[591] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec.
I wish I could give it to you today. Not later.
Of course it'd have consequences on null mineral prices, so please accept instant null sec industry buff by signing up a disclaimer that you won't come whine in here about that 300 ISK pu Zydrine and 1k pu Megacyte. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
511
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:51:00 -
[592] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:To recap:
- A change (once again) to how sov mechanics work is in order and should be the first to be implemented since its effect ripple on everything else. Most of all, until there's not a player created way to ensure the basic pre-requisites to create a strong player created industry and even alliance empire, it's futile to talk about buffs or nerfs. Otherwise we just risk getting a player driven low sec, that is an industry failure. Plenty of slots and refineries and all in the same system (basically what are the current requests). Yet it's still a failure.
I understand the desire to move away from shooting structures. However, shooting structures provides advantages I've not seen in other replacement suggestions. 1) Ties the invader down to a fixed location for time for the defenders to respond. 2) Reinforcement timers ensure you don't go to sleep with everything okay, only to wake up 8 hours later to find your system lost. 3) Reinforcement timers give you a specific time for something to happen, giving both sides opportunity to prepare a fleet for the real fight that determines sov. 4) Hard to exploit.
I've heard suggestions such as PVP (exploitable by killing your own alts), plexing (more boring than shooting structures), and a few others that I see bing a disaster. So, what other suggestions are out there?
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - A buff to null sec industry is long overdue. Both as number of slots and refinery efficiency. They'll soon discover how nice it plays with the high end minerals values tanking ever further but still...
Slots won't drive down mineral prices. Perfect refine is already available at outpost. Just have a hassle of transporting those mins to another station or POS.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - A change (I can't even call it a nerf) to hi sec slots for *not newbie* players to pay as much as POS owners seems a first and quick to implement step towards bringing fairness. Fairness not between null sec and high but between any POS owners vs NPC station users. It's important to distinguish which game mechanics favor whom.
Not so easy when POS fuels are variable, POSes may have things other than manufacturing slots. Different race towers can have different number of online modules/slots.
Some "approximate" value would be good. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
57
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:58:00 -
[593] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:We will be quite happy when we turn null into high sec.
Fixed. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3530
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:58:00 -
[594] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec. Over my frozen corpse.
(I tend to not undock) I am a nullsec zealot. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5543
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 18:20:00 -
[595] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:baltec1 wrote:We will be quite happy when we turn null into high sec. Fixed.
Because giving us more industrial slots means all the risk goes away! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3925
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 18:23:00 -
[596] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:So, what other suggestions are out there?
I have exposed them several times even in this thread. Let's say that they are more "radical" than most would like, they involve mechanics (explained in there too) making sec status a gradual thing, unlocking features the lowest sec you go to. Call it "liquid sec status".
LHA Tarawa wrote: Slots won't drive down mineral prices. Perfect refine is already available at outpost. Just have a hassle of transporting those mins to another station or POS.
Bolded the part that may affect prices a ton. Not sure if you have tried continuously carrying a medium corp minerals production 5-6 jumps away. It's not something you do in a badger. You do it in ships that involve true risk and costs. It's true that blue-land tends to be relatively safe but it's not *that* safe to lazily hop around with a 1.5 to 7B ship. That lack of laziness has a cost and also a cost of risk.
LHA Tarawa wrote: Not so easy when POS fuels are variable, POSes may have things other than manufacturing slots. Different race towers can have different number of online modules/slots.
Some "approximate" value would be good.
I also covered this in past posts. Are you in Gallente space? Then NPC slots would cost something like a moving average of Gallente ice based fuels. This would also entice people to stop camping The Forge, as the slots in there might be more expensive than Gallente's plus transport costs (plus standings grinding costs). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3530
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 18:23:00 -
[597] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:baltec1 wrote:We will be quite happy when we turn null into high sec. Fixed. Because giving us more industrial slots means all the risk goes away! Need some CONCORD as well. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
473
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:23:00 -
[598] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec.
I'm all for some buffs to 0.0 Industry, but it won't bring any additional industrialists to 0.0. But you can always make more alts right?
The single biggest danger to EVE is the proliferation of ALTS! Kill an alt today!
Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5545
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:31:00 -
[599] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:I'm all for some buffs to 0.0 Industry, but it won't bring any additional industrialists to 0.0. But you can always make more alts right?
You base that lie upon what evidence? |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
512
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:51:00 -
[600] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Not sure if you have tried continuously carrying a medium corp minerals production 5-6 jumps away. It's not something you do in a badger. You do it in ships that involve true risk and costs. It's true that blue-land tends to be relatively safe but it's not *that* safe to lazily hop around with a 1.5 to 7B ship. That lack of laziness has a cost and also a cost of risk.
Why would you go 5-6 jumps? You can set up manufacturing POSes in the same system as your refining outpost. You can have a manufacturing outpost in the system right next door to your refining outpost. JF going one system from outpost to outpost is mega easy, super cheap and insanely safe (for all but the cyno alt that is in a rookie ship that you intentionally blow up seconds after he lights the cyno anyway)....
LHA Tarawa wrote: Not so easy when POS fuels are variable, POSes may have things other than manufacturing slots. Different race towers can have different number of online modules/slots.
Some "approximate" value would be good.
I also covered this in past posts. Are you in Gallente space? Then NPC slots would cost something like a moving average of Gallente ice based fuels. This would also entice people to stop camping The Forge, as the slots in there might be more expensive than Gallente's plus transport costs (plus standings grinding costs).[/quote]
So, are you assuming the POS has nothing but slots? hmmm,
Let's say a a gallente POS has 3,750,000 power and an equipment assembly array needs 90,000 so can hold 40 arrays. Those 40 arrays have 6 slots each, with a base time multiplier of .75. So, 40 * 6 /.75 = 320 station slot equivilants. 30 * 24 * 320 = 230,400 slot hours a month.
What is the cost of running a large tower now? 40 per hour * 24 hours * 30 days * 13,000 isk = 375 million ISk a month?
375 million isk / 230 K slot hours = 1630 per slot hour?
Ummm... okay. So, instead of station slosts being 1000 an hour we increase it to 1630 an hour?
Wow... big change there. [/sarcasm] |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:51:00 -
[601] - Quote
Absolutely, until highsec consumption approaches nullsec consumption per capita. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:52:00 -
[602] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec. I wish I could give it to you today. Not later. Of course it'd have consequences on null mineral prices, so please accept instant null sec industry buff by signing up a disclaimer that you won't come whine in here about that 300 ISK pu Zydrine and 1k pu Megacyte. Our nullsec mining backbone...
..noooo |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:56:00 -
[603] - Quote
Time to clean up this thread, I've spent too long learning Dota 2 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3530
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:08:00 -
[604] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think null-sec should be given all the industrial facilities they want, and then some.
We will be quite happy with equality with high sec. I wish I could give it to you today. Not later. Of course it'd have consequences on null mineral prices, so please accept instant null sec industry buff by signing up a disclaimer that you won't come whine in here about that 300 ISK pu Zydrine and 1k pu Megacyte. Our nullsec mining backbone... ..noooo Haha. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:31:00 -
[605] - Quote
Hey guys the 'tyrannis is a pvp expansion' guy thinks if we fix nullsec industry, it'll hurt the extremely lucrative world of high-end min mining so we shouldn't do it. Good stuff.
Anyways, back to real discussion, the solution is to rebalance industrial capacity of all regions (except for perhaps lowsec since they don't seem particularly interested in empire building) around their respective ship and good consumption levels.
|
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:47:00 -
[606] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Hey guys the 'tyrannis is a pvp expansion' guy thinks if we fix nullsec industry, it'll hurt the extremely lucrative world of high-end min mining so we shouldn't do it. Good stuff.
Anyways, back to real discussion, the solution is to rebalance industrial capacity of all regions (except for perhaps lowsec since they don't seem particularly interested in empire building) around their respective ship and good consumption levels.
To have ANY chance of getting anything you want, you have to first accept that CCP is a business and exists to make a profit. This means appealing to a broad audience of both carebears and those looking for the "hostile exchange of ammo" people.
You need to start with the basic economic reality that high sec must be safe and profitable enough that carebears will not only play, but can generate enough ISK that they can buy PLEX from other players that would rather do other things than grind ISK, and are willing to fund other peoples' subscriptions to grind the ISK for them.
Now, with that harsh, and unpleasant economic reality as a baseline, any desire to make null pay even better, has to deal with the players interacting in the sandbox reality that null is largely controlled by mega coalitions that charge rent based on the potential profitability of the null system. Increasing the profitability of these null systems does no, in general, equate to an equivalent increase in the profits of the residents, just an increase in their corp takes to pay their rent. Increases in null profitability simply results in mass quantities of ISK flowing into the hands of those that control the coalitions that do the renting.
You find hat CCP is between a rock and hard place, where they can't nerf high sec without suffering a massive revenue hit, nor can they buff null, without resulting in massive wealth increases on the part of the few that control hull. CCP knows... they've tried in the past and have seen the results.
Any talk of rebalancing must be constructed within the confines of these two competing harsh and unpleasant realities. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:48:00 -
[607] - Quote
Null Sec residents, especially those in leadership positions within large alliances, need to take a long look in the mirror and accept the blame for the state null sec finds itself.
They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Null Sec care bears: HTFU and change your space into what you want it to be.
Stop the crying. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:50:00 -
[608] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Null Sec residents, especially those in leadership positions within large alliances, need to take a long look in the mirror and accept the blame for the state null sec finds itself.
They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Null Sec care bears: HTFU and change your space into what you want it to be.
Stop the crying. Yes, I want to make the outpost have more sl- wait no.
I want to put up more outpo-- wait, one per system.
Filled up all the systems.
Welp. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:55:00 -
[609] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Null Sec residents, especially those in leadership positions within large alliances, need to take a long look in the mirror and accept the blame for the state null sec finds itself.
They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Null Sec care bears: HTFU and change your space into what you want it to be.
Stop the crying. Yes, I want to make the outpost have more sl- wait no. I want to put up more outpo-- wait, one per system. Filled up all the systems. Welp.
I dont expect any of you to own up to the problems at this point in time.
All the systems filled up.....
No one believes that. No one believes the ones that are up are upgraded completely. You're only concern is to mine goo. There is more isk in a few large alliances than all the rest of Eve yet there is "something wrong" with null economy.
Just stop with the BS. No one is buying anymore. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:56:00 -
[610] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: To have ANY chance of getting anything you want, you have to first accept that CCP is a business and exists to make a profit.
Correct, and that involves accepting that CCP's carebear catering, PvE expansions are considered failures while PvP iteration and emergent content encouraging expansions have put EVE's sub count back in the upswing. CCP's official statements lean towards heavily encouraging 2013 as a year for helping 'emergent content'. Putting a proportional amount of industry where majority of emergent content happens (nullsec) seems entirely within that framework.
Quote:You need to start with the basic economic reality that high sec must be safe and profitable enough that carebears will not only play, but can generate enough ISK that they can buy PLEX from other players that would rather do other things than grind ISK, and are willing to fund other peoples' subscriptions to grind the ISK for them. The relevant party in this scenario are the players that actually buy PLEX - without their injection of cash into the game. What do people buy PLEX for? I imagine the heavy majority is to engage in PvP without PvE, as you say. So let's help EVE's financial status by ignoring isk farming non-entities and cater to the customers pouring cash into the game. Makes sense.
Quote:the profitability of these null systems does no, in general, equate to an equivalent increase in the profits of the residents, just an increase in their corp takes to pay their rent. [citation needed] |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:05:00 -
[611] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:05:00 -
[612] - Quote
flakeys wrote: And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands.
If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec. HTFU!...for the children! |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:07:00 -
[613] - Quote
Quote:Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to-
lol |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:07:00 -
[614] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote: To have ANY chance of getting anything you want, you have to first accept that CCP is a business and exists to make a profit.
Correct, and that involves accepting that CCP's carebear catering, PvE expansions are considered failures while PvP iteration and emergent content encouraging expansions have put EVE's sub count back in the upswing. CCP's official statements lean towards heavily encouraging 2013 as a year for helping 'emergent content'. Putting a proportional amount of industry where majority of emergent content happens (nullsec) seems entirely within that framework. Quote:You need to start with the basic economic reality that high sec must be safe and profitable enough that carebears will not only play, but can generate enough ISK that they can buy PLEX from other players that would rather do other things than grind ISK, and are willing to fund other peoples' subscriptions to grind the ISK for them. The relevant party in this scenario are the players that actually buy PLEX - without their injection of cash into the game. What do people buy PLEX for? I imagine the heavy majority is to engage in PvP without PvE, as you say. So let's help EVE's financial status by ignoring isk farming non-entities and cater to the customers pouring cash into the game. Makes sense. Quote:the profitability of these null systems does no, in general, equate to an equivalent increase in the profits of the residents, just an increase in their corp takes to pay their rent. [citation needed]
CCP has slowly changed high sec and made it a place were one can live and play and make a living over the years. The game has grown exponentially over the years.
Correlation? Why yes, yes there is....
The null sec dinosaurs just refuse to see the plain and obvious writing on the wall. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:07:00 -
[615] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics.
You really should look in the mirror then. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:08:00 -
[616] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:
CCP has slowly changed high sec and made it a place were one can live and play and make a living over the years. The game has grown exponentially over the years.
Correlation? Why yes, yes there is....
Actually all post-expansion growth can be tied into PvP-based expansions, against the ceasing in growth when high-sec catering expansions were put in place. EVE has continued to grow in spite of its weakening of emergent content, not because of it.
Sariah Kion wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. You really should look in the mirror then. Was this some sort of attempt at a comeback? |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:10:00 -
[617] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Correct, and that involves accepting that CCP's carebear catering, PvE expansions are considered failures while PvP iteration and emergent content encouraging expansions have put EVE's sub count back in the upswing. CCP's official statements lean towards heavily encouraging 2013 as a year for helping 'emergent content'. Putting a proportional amount of industry where majority of emergent content happens (nullsec) seems entirely within that framework.
And who is asking for releases that focus on improving life for carebears. All I'm saying is that if a release focuses on making it easir to f' with carebears, subscriptions will plummet. If a nerf is made to high sec that makes it difficult or impossible for carebears to get enough ISK to fund ships, subscriptions will plummet.
I'm ALL for more null content, as long as it doesn't come as a result of high sec changes that result in me no longer playing the game (either because it is less fun, or I'm no longer able to easily get the ISK I need to buy PLEX).
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:The relevant party in this scenario are the players that actually buy PLEX - without their injection of cash into the game. What do people buy PLEX for? I imagine the heavy majority is to engage in PvP without PvE, as you say. So let's help EVE's financial status by ignoring isk farming non-entities and cater to the customers pouring cash into the game. Makes sense.
BOTH parties are equally relevant in this synergistic relationship. If people that want to grind ISK to buy PLEX to fund their accounts, can't get that ISK, then there is no one for the PLEX seller (buyer with RW money) to sell to, and then he won't buy it with real in the first place.
That is, of course, you really want to turn it into pay-to-win where you just buy ISK, instead of paying to fund the account of the person that will grind the ISK for you.
Next thing you know... who needs those miners and manufactures anyway. Just make it a micro-transaction to buy a ship from CCP, and poof, ship suddenly exists from nothing.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:10:00 -
[618] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:flakeys wrote: And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands. If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec. If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo.
That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:11:00 -
[619] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. You really should look in the mirror then. Was this some sort of attempt at a comeback?
That statement you made was a text book example of hypocrisy. You have personally passed moral judgement on high sec players playing within the limits of the mechanics for, well, for ever....
So that makes you a "child" and a "hypocrite".
Peace. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:14:00 -
[620] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics.
Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system.
When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:14:00 -
[621] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:flakeys wrote: And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands. If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec. If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo. That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm? Well, they better all gang up and take the tech from the goons then, why should CCP hand it to them?
They also have highsec. The NPCs will hand that to them. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:15:00 -
[622] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better. I am a nullsec zealot. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:17:00 -
[623] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.
I could not agree more. No stress. More profitable. Let's me play the game the way I enjoy playing it.... Without which, I won't play. I know. I've seen me quit this game a couple times now. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:18:00 -
[624] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.
You mad.
What really needs to happen is CCP needs to break up the big blue donut. I would be willing to bet that null sec will be substantially changed long before any nerf comes to high sec.
The tears will be glorious coming from these null sec care bears as their isk faucets dry up and they actually have to work to hold onto systems. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
884
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:18:00 -
[625] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:flakeys wrote: And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands. If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec.
Mr kidd ... if you actually read the thread i was replying to someone in favour of the change and i stated why i was against it.I live in high-sec atm.
Stop doing your name honour kid ....
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:19:00 -
[626] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.
I could not agree more. No stress. More profitable. Let's me play the game the way I enjoy playing it.... Without which, I won't play. I know. I've seen me quit this game a couple times now. Did your unsubs help push CCP toward a greater realization that safety in highsec is of paramount importance to the continuing health of EVE Online (which is dying)? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:22:00 -
[627] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.
I could not agree more. No stress. More profitable. Let's me play the game the way I enjoy playing it.... Without which, I won't play. I know. I've seen me quit this game a couple times now. Did your unsubs help push CCP toward a greater realization that safety in highsec is of paramount importance to the continuing health of EVE Online (which is dying)?
Oh noes!!! EVE is dying!!
The boring ass null sec big blue donut might be "dying" (good riddance) but EVE is doing just fine.
Maybe if the big blue donut way of life goes some of the more neanderthal like in the player base will mooooove along as well.
Can only cross the fingers and hope. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:23:00 -
[628] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:And who is asking for releases that focus on improving life for carebears. All I'm saying is that if a release focuses on making it easir to f' with carebears, subscriptions will plummet. If a nerf is made to high sec that makes it difficult or impossible for carebears to get enough ISK to fund ships, subscriptions will plummet. First question: Incursion lobbyists, anti-ganking advocates, pro-wardec evasion advocates, Trebor Daedow, Ripard Teg, etc. Nobody is suggesting that anyone makes it 'impossible for carebears to get enough ISK to fund ships and subs and what have you - people are suggesting that the place to do it for the vast majority of PvE activty should not be incetivized to be done in highsec. You're the one claiming that makes it 'impossible'.
Quote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:The relevant party in this scenario are the players that actually buy PLEX - without their injection of cash into the game. What do people buy PLEX for? I imagine the heavy majority is to engage in PvP without PvE, as you say. So let's help EVE's financial status by ignoring isk farming non-entities and cater to the customers pouring cash into the game. Makes sense. BOTH parties are equally relevant in this synergistic relationship. If people that want to grind ISK to buy PLEX to fund their accounts, can't get that ISK, then there is no one for the PLEX seller (buyer with RW money) to sell to, and then he won't buy it with real in the first place. That is, of course, you really want to turn it into pay-to-win where you just buy ISK, instead of paying to fund the account of the person that will grind the ISK for you Next thing you know... who needs those miners and manufactures anyway. Just make it a micro-transaction to buy a ship from CCP, and poof, ship suddenly exists from nothing. As you say yourself, your part in terms of CCP's fiscal stability can be supplanted with an NPC sell order. It's not like CCP isn't manipulating PLEX value as we speak. RL money cannot be created so easily however. So they're hardly 'equal'. The virtue of not replacing you with a sell order is that, in theory, you would be interacting within an MMO in the process of grinding in game and creating content for the people actually putting money into the game. How is encouraging interaction in this context, as I advocate, against this? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:28:00 -
[629] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind CSM candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Right, because sov null is centered around structures with large EHP with large gaps of time to amass reinforcements, it is proven best practice to send as many guys as you can at the structure at the set time. Renting is proven best practice because free markets and industry are not viable in a primary resource extraction economy, so fees are charged for access to the resource (in lieu of time spent in fleets). Encouraging a null secondary economic zone fixes this. Fixing the null industry problem changes the conclusion that renting is proven best practice. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:35:00 -
[630] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind CSM candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Right, because sov null is centered around structures with large EHP with large gaps of time to amass reinforcements, it is proven best practice to send as many guys as you can at the structure at the set time. Renting is proven best practice because free markets and industry are not viable in a primary resource extraction economy, so fees are charged for access to the resource (in lieu of time spent in fleets). Encouraging a null secondary economic zone fixes this. Fixing the null industry problem changes the conclusion that renting is proven best practice. There you have it, nullsec, home of: SHOOTAN STRUCTARRR BLOBBAN BEETCHES RATTAN~ JUMP FREIGHTAN
Join us today in Deklein. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:35:00 -
[631] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind CSM candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Right, because sov null is centered around structures with large EHP with large gaps of time to amass reinforcements, it is proven best practice to send as many guys as you can at the structure at the set time. Renting is proven best practice because free markets and industry are not viable in a primary resource extraction economy, so fees are charged for access to the resource (in lieu of time spent in fleets). Encouraging a null secondary economic zone fixes this. Fixing the null industry problem changes the conclusion that renting is proven best practice.
Null Sec doesnt have to be all things to everyone that lives there. There is more isk in null sec then any other area of the game by a large margin. Why, in the name of balance, is it a good idea to INCREASE that variable even more?
Want to be an industrialist, head to high sec. Want to mine moons and rare roids, head to null sec.
Its just self entitled null sec dwellers who want everything at hands reach.
Its childlike and its sad. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:36:00 -
[632] - Quote
step back while i get my wolfpax ready |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:37:00 -
[633] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: They point fingers at high sec, they point fingers at CCP but they never, never, never take responsibility for the way they made their sand castle in this sand box. It's cowardly .
Only children make moral judgements when considering proven best pratices within the limitations of game mechanics. Proven best practices within game mechanics... have a gazillion friends with ubber powerful fleets to crush anyone. Control vast areas of sov null space... then charge rent for solar systems based on the potential profitability of the system. When these rents cause null to be less profitable than high sec, come to the forums and blame it all on high sec. Then, put your support behind CSM candidates that will push for high sec nerfs... which will never happen since CCP's objectives are different from yours. Right, because sov null is centered around structures with large EHP with large gaps of time to amass reinforcements, it is proven best practice to send as many guys as you can at the structure at the set time. Renting is proven best practice because free markets and industry are not viable in a primary resource extraction economy, so fees are charged for access to the resource (in lieu of time spent in fleets). Encouraging a null secondary economic zone fixes this. Fixing the null industry problem changes the conclusion that renting is proven best practice. There you have it, nullsec, home of: SHOOTAN STRUCTARRR BLOBBAN BEETCHES RATTAN~ JUMP FREIGHTAN Join us today in Deklein.
Selling proceeds of moon goo mining on the RMT market.
Dont forget that one. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:39:00 -
[634] - Quote
rmting my scandium riches so i can fill my vespa gas tank up half way |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:40:00 -
[635] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:[
What really needs to happen is CCP needs to break up the big blue donut. I would be willing to bet that null sec will be substantially changed long before any nerf comes to high sec.
The tears will be glorious coming from these null sec care bears as their isk faucets dry up and they actually have to work to hold onto systems.
I'm not sure there is a big blue donut.... any more than CCCP and USA were a global blue donut during the Cold War.
Dang sure there is nothing CCP could do about it anyway. CCP can't force me to fight, and they sure as heck can't force one coalition to try to take sov space from another coalition. If two coalitions agree to not invade each other with nuke bomb fleets where both risk losing evrything, and only have limited fights in 3rd party space... well, what is it that you expect CCP to do about that? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:43:00 -
[636] - Quote
Unthinkables is an alliance with under 700 peeps with no allies that holds more space then most CFC alliances. The problem is lack of incentive to go to the trouble of taking space, not that retaining space is 'too easy' or something. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:46:00 -
[637] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Null Sec doesnt have to be all things to everyone that lives there. There is more isk in null sec then any other area of the game by a large margin....
...Want to be an industrialist, head to high sec.
lol |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:48:00 -
[638] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:[
What really needs to happen is CCP needs to break up the big blue donut. I would be willing to bet that null sec will be substantially changed long before any nerf comes to high sec.
The tears will be glorious coming from these null sec care bears as their isk faucets dry up and they actually have to work to hold onto systems. I'm not sure there is a big blue donut.... any more than CCCP and USA were a global blue donut during the Cold War. Dang sure there is nothing CCP could do about it anyway. CCP can't force me to fight, and they sure as heck can't force one coalition to try to take sov space from another coalition. If two coalitions agree to not invade each other with nuke bomb fleets where both risk losing everything, and only have limited fights in 3rd party space... well, what is it that you expect CCP to do about that?
They can change how sovereignty works and how its maintained. That would do a lot to draw out more smaller corps and alliances into null sec. I mean, thats what the current null sec players want right? More life and interesting things in null sec.
The only problem is they dont want things to change on their end. They like their null care bear lifestyle. They just want to force the horde of high sec players to have to find their way into their waiting cross hairs or into renting form their alliances.
If these intellectually dishonest null sec players thast complain here really cared about null sec and the game they would be pushing for substantial changes to null and sovereignty that everyone KNOWS are needed instead of wasting time complaining about mining barge EHP and high sec carebears.
The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
585
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:55:00 -
[639] - Quote
if everyone knows they are needed, why bother making posts about it |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
513
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:59:00 -
[640] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:They can change how sovereignty works and how its maintained. That would do a lot to draw out more smaller corps and alliances into null sec. I mean, thats what the current null sec players want right? More life and interesting things in null sec.
Changing how sov works is NOT going to break up the blue donut (that I don't believe exists), nor would it prevent the mega power blocks from crushing anyone that is not aligned with them that thinks of moving into their area.
How would the be able to force their current renters to pay rent, if anyone could just move in without paying rent?
|
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air Red Alliance
3243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:00:00 -
[641] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote: The only problem is they dont want things to change on their end. They like their null care bear lifestyle. They just want to force the horde of high sec players to have to find their way into their waiting cross hairs or into renting form their alliances.
Wait we're going to force them from carebearing in highsec... into our carebear nullsec crosshairs where they will be carebearing and evidently we too will also be carebearing, even though the delination between 'us' and 'them' would be effectively nonexistent. What if we kill one of our carebears in nullsec because we confused it for a highsec carebear forced into a nullsec alliance and using nullsec space? What then? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3531
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:10:00 -
[642] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sariah Kion wrote: The only problem is they dont want things to change on their end. They like their null care bear lifestyle. They just want to force the horde of high sec players to have to find their way into their waiting cross hairs or into renting form their alliances.
Wait we're going to force them from carebearing in highsec... into our carebear nullsec crosshairs where they will be carebearing and evidently we too will also be carebearing, even though the delination between 'us' and 'them' would be effectively nonexistent. What if we kill one of our carebears in nullsec because we confused it for a highsec carebear forced into a nullsec alliance and using nullsec space? What then? Surprise nullbear, you are the carebears.
GB2Highsec I am a nullsec zealot. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13139
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:19:00 -
[643] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:If these intellectually dishonest null high sec players thast complain here really cared about null sec and the game they would be pushing for substantial changes to null and sovereignty that everyone KNOWS are needed instead of wasting time complaining about mining barge EHP and high sec carebears non-existent nullsec cabals.
The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well. Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1198
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:53:00 -
[644] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:If these intellectually dishonest null high sec players thast complain here really cared about null sec and the game they would be pushing for substantial changes to null and sovereignty that everyone KNOWS are needed instead of wasting time complaining about mining barge EHP and high sec carebears non-existent nullsec cabals.
The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well. Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer.
I like to think /some/ of us aren't completely clueless.
Sure, I'd prefer not to see high-sec significantly downgraded for business (As it's where I do my work.) but upgrading null to at least match it makes sense.
One of the reasons I've been suggesting time based changes, rather than cost based ones. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
57
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:08:00 -
[645] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer.
Your motives are clear as well, especially when most of you null bears talk down to the rest of the population as if living in your deluxe apartment in the sky grants you special powers over everyone else. Pro tip: you're not special just because you live in null sec. You're too blind to see past your own ambition and often confuse needs vs wants...usually intentionally.
It's hilarious that most of you (including your chief drum beater, Malcanis) try to champion yourselves as wanting null sec buffs "for the common man". It reads exactly like what it really is: meaningless drivel. Null sec is intended to give large power blocks a very open end of the sandbox for player-generated content, and every single one of you advocates for more CCP and NPC intervention to make it more like high sec, at the same time calling for high sec nerfs. If you think for a second that players are going to start moving to null because of industrial opportunities, you're a fool and I'm telling you so.
The solution is very simple. If you want more, go take it. Go to war with your blue neighbors and expand your territory to include better tech opportunities. Form a coalition and go knock down the Goons door. Furthermore, even as a 3 month old newb, I can understand how the tiered industrial process works. Since you fail to understand even the very basic premise of industry and how the different areas of space need and interact with one another, then there's really not much help for you. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13140
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:11:00 -
[646] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Your motives are clear as well, especially when most of you null bears GǪso what you're saying is that my motives are obscured to you GÇö after all, you haven't even been able to properly identify me as a highsec industrialist.
Quote:The solution is very simple. If you want more, go take it. Too bad the game doesn't allow for it. Gee, do you think that maybe that's why people are asking for a change so that it doesGǪ?
So yes, it's simple, but no, it's not a solution. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Primary Me
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:21:00 -
[647] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote: CCP has slowly changed high sec and made it a place were one can live and play and make a living over the years. The game has grown exponentially over the years.
Correlation? Why yes, yes there is....
Correlation does not imply causation. It appears you are running out of logical arguments. Try ranting instead?
James 315 for CSM 8. A voice for hi-sec, a voice for reason. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:21:00 -
[648] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.
You mad. What really needs to happen is CCP needs to break up the big blue donut. I would be willing to bet that null sec will be substantially changed long before any nerf comes to high sec. The tears will be glorious coming from these null sec care bears as their isk faucets dry up and they actually have to work to hold onto systems. No.
The "Big Blue Donut" will break up on its own because people are that way.
Just as they shouldn't be asking for NPC resources into player owned space, CCP shouldn't interfere beyond setting the ground rules for that space.
I personally think the rules should be different to encourage small-ish empires and more surface area for conflict, but the big empires of even a year ago have changed, with many of them gone completely. That is sufficient.
It is possible to break the donut, and some *player* will come up with the wherewithal to do so. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1199
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:27:00 -
[649] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So yes, it's simple, but no, it's not a solution.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1187
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 23:30:00 -
[650] - Quote
Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4241
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:02:00 -
[651] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well. Which is why they're buffing nullsec industry to be self-sufficient, right? I mean, they are. That's a stated goal for them, clear as day. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
LazyWren
The Wren Slayers
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:08:00 -
[652] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Part of your problem is you do not understand nullsec industry. First issue is: You need three stations to do in nullsec what you can do in one highsec station. The outposts are broken down into the four races; the gallente have the most offices, the minmitar has the best refining, the amarr have production slots, and caldari research. That will require 24 mill a day or 720 mill a month. There's also the problem where the lines do get backed up. Even though they're kinda private the stations don't have near enough production slots to do anything in grad schemes and numbers to support those huge fights in the news. Not to mention there are industry upgrades needed for the good belts. So that's going to require a lot of man power to maintain as it decays without use. Also the stations need to be upgraded. Each upgrade costs minerals, isk, and blue print time. Here's a list. Second issue is double taxation. Belt ratters get charged one tax for their income per payout; what ever percent that may be. However the industrialists get double taxed for refining and then again when the alliance buys the stuff from the industrial at the discount rate (tax rate). Another problem is the logistics. The only way to get any fuel, component, or minerals moved is through a jump freighter. Not only are they god damned expensive too buy, the fuel costs cut into any hope of profit. They're a pain to move as well. And you have to use them to import and export to jita. No way can viators handle what a jf can do in a reasonable amount of time. Those industry upgrades, that I mentioned earlier, actually increase the frequency and quality of the hidden belt. If a neutral pops into local (which they will regularly) the first thing they do is see if they can grab a belt kill. This means that miners gotta stop what they're doing every five to ten minutes. For industry to be conducted in any quantifiable manner, they need to mine for a good bit of time, rather than be interrupted every time. This is why hidden belts rock. Some chancer isn't going to ruin your day for a lazy kill. One roaming sabre can ruin a well planned mining op pdq. When you're in a grav site the neutral actually have to put in a little itty bitty effort to scan a miner's ass down. The real issue is the amount of minerals needed to conduct an alliance's day to day business (cta, structure grinding, etc). This is why 425mm rails are bought so much. When you see a sov jf kill look at how many rail guns are in the cargo. The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression. Mineral compression is when, during reprocessing, nearly as many minerals are taken out of the item as were put in to produce the item being reprocessed. That costs money for the rails, for the production, for the jump fuel, for the cynos, etc etc. All this is beyond the realm of highsec industry. Where a highsec miner's biggest issue isn't being able to afk mine in a few areas or the production line. Before you even think of mentioning moon profit know that a) not everybody has access to tech and b) the profit margins on a non power block complex reaction are around one to two percent.
OMG you are such a null bear, cry moar?! Good with the bad and all that. The taxation thing you mentioned is of your own creation not the games.
I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
57
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:11:00 -
[653] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.
E: If thats the case, I would suggest attempting trying to "build an empire" using the failed mechanics CCP has put into place in null.
Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. T2 production needs T1 goods, that must be imported from high sec, which can then be exported back. It's very simple. Null bears want it all in their own backyard. Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy. Cut them off completely from high sec, buff their industry, and even go so far as to give them their own form of currency.
Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier? Really? These guys are a bunch of somethingawful.com forum trolls who have controlled large blocks of this game for how long now?
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1200
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:11:00 -
[654] - Quote
LazyWren wrote:I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection.
There are low ends in null, but they're in relatively low quantities, relative to the size of the belt. (Or so I've had explained to me) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4242
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:16:00 -
[655] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:19:00 -
[656] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand. Screw balance, highsec4lyfe.
And safety.
And ???
And profit.
I am a nullsec zealot. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:20:00 -
[657] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:LazyWren wrote:I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection. There are low ends in null, but they're in relatively low quantities, relative to the size of the belt. (Or so I've had explained to me) This is exactly the case. Compared to what it needs for say a few battleships (let along a supercapital), mining in nullsec will not get you there. You have to play the ~export to Jita to sell, then buy minerals in Jita, compress near Jita and JF to null, refine and then build~ game.
You can mine ice in null. But you can do it in highsec, with ~safety~. So at best you mine the ore and then send to Jita, sell, buy the fuel you need and JF it back. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1189
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:26:00 -
[658] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.
E: If thats the case, I would suggest attempting trying to "build an empire" using the failed mechanics CCP has put into place in null. Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. T2 production needs T1 goods, that must be imported from high sec, which can then be exported back. It's very simple. Null bears want it all in their own backyard. Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy. Cut them off completely from high sec, buff their industry, and even go so far as to give them their own form of currency. Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier? Really? These guys are a bunch of somethingawful.com forum trolls who have controlled large blocks of this game for how long now?
Bringing up T2 is funny, since most of the materials needed(moon mins) mainly come from null. Yet null doesn't even have the industrial capabilities to do any sort of major production. This is a "NPC" failure due to the limited spots in null outposts and the even more PITA control of POSs which makes production extremely risky and limited.
About your 2nd comment, I do bring up goons. You seem to not really understand goons as a whole. Their "vocal minority" is what you seem to associate the entirety of goons. When actually there are many goons who know quite a good amount. Their long presence in null proves my point and negates your opinion of them. Obviously with Goons continual survival in null shows they know about the failures of the current system. So long as they remember to pay their bills. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
LazyWren
The Wren Slayers
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:28:00 -
[659] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:[quote=Abrazzar]
As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in.
I agree with this point, there should be a module that jams cynos and a way to stop people docking at a station without the permission of the system owners. If such systems were implemented it would be fairer for all involved.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:33:00 -
[660] - Quote
LazyWren wrote:Arcosian wrote:[quote=Abrazzar] As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in. I agree with this point, there should be a module that jams cynos and a way to stop people docking at a station without the permission of the system owners. If such systems were implemented it would be fairer for all involved. Funny you mention that...
Let's just make it impossible to bring anything in. At all. 100% mine minerals in null/low and build it there. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13141
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:48:00 -
[661] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. It would be odd if it were true, which it obviously isn't as shown by your insistence that people should do things the game literally doesn't allow.
Quote:Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy. So in other words, not only do you not want to give null what they're asking for GÇö you don't even know what it is.
Quote:Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier? Since not even they have been able to do it during all that time, yes. They're an excellent example. They, unlike you, have figured out what can and cannot be done within the scope of the existing mechanics. They, unlike you, understand those mechanics. They, like everyone else (except you), have realised that free, infinite, easy and safe trumps everything null could possibly offer given the current mechanics and the massive limitations they impose on player activities. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4244
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:52:00 -
[662] - Quote
LazyWren wrote:Arcosian wrote:[quote=Abrazzar]
As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in. I agree with this point, there should be a module that jams cynos and a way to stop people docking at a station without the permission of the system owners. If such systems were implemented it would be fairer for all involved. Yeah, and using this module is in most cases rather dumb since it prevents you from moving capitals freely in your own space and doing logistics, etc. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3926
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:55:00 -
[663] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Hey guys the 'tyrannis is a pvp expansion' guy thinks if we fix nullsec industry, it'll hurt the extremely lucrative world of high-end min mining so we shouldn't do it. Good stuff.
Anyways, back to real discussion, the solution is to rebalance industrial capacity of all regions (except for perhaps lowsec since they don't seem particularly interested in empire building) around their respective ship and good consumption levels.
The POCOs that exist because of Tyrannis create PvP encounters, confirm or deny? The buckets of recurring whining about how it's unprofitable to mine high ends already, when scordite pays more, come from null sec residents, confirm or deny? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
LazyWren
The Wren Slayers
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:55:00 -
[664] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:[quote=Abrazzar] Null would have to develop indy or convoy supplies in and how many fights would be generated by opposing alliances trying to kill supply convoys?
I'm assuming due to your post you weren't here when this actually existed in game, now that was a conflict driver. Stop crying for things you do not really want, because you are bored of sitting in your ivory tower.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3926
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:06:00 -
[665] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Correct, and that involves accepting that CCP's carebear catering, PvE expansions are considered failures while PvP iteration and emergent content encouraging expansions have put EVE's sub count back in the upswing. CCP's official statements lean towards heavily encouraging 2013 as a year for helping 'emergent content'. Putting a proportional amount of industry where majority of emergent content happens (nullsec) seems entirely within that framework.
Balls.
You consider expansions a failure or not depending on what kind of stuff you like or not.
The reality is that some expansions sucked very hard (Dominion, it was ALL about PvE, yeah right? , also voted as one of the worst all time expansions), WiS (not PvE, not PvP, not... period. It's a non expansion). Tyrannis = the definition of lackluster, not because of PvE or PvP but because it just sucked. Even then, the one time EvE tanked is because WE, beginning with me, mass quit after ....
....
.... drumrolls.....
.... the GREED IS GOOD scandal, the Pay 2 Win scandal and the "3rd party websites and developers will pay $99 for the honor of advertising our product" scandal.
You conveniently pretend to ret-con the past attributing to expansions nobody liked a "PvE" label on it when the real revolt and hundreds so pages thread *organized by some including me and not you for what I recall* and the Jita monument protest were made on the points I listed above and not yours.
WiS, the one and only expansion tied to that big flop is a *result* of Greed is good and the other garbage and is not even a expansion, in the sense that you can't call expansion a closed door. It's PvDoor.
Now return spamming your false statements in another thread, I will be forever there to correct your misstatements.
P.S. The most PVE recent expansion I recall is Incursions and I don't recall it causing players drop, but a bad economy misbalance. It was quite popular instead. And of course the FW revamp and it's "Forex" exploitable system caused another bad economy misbalance and was popular too, but I guess you'll exclusively mention the first but not the second. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
57
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:11:00 -
[666] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand.
Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better direction for the game than those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all.
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:14:00 -
[667] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand. Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better direction for the game than those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all. Ignore all the good evidence given - this is perfect balance in General Discussion. I am a nullsec zealot. |
LazyWren
The Wren Slayers
49
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:15:00 -
[668] - Quote
Tippia wrote:March rabbit wrote:question is: who forces them players to risk/hard work/all this great stuff in 0.0? No one except themself and their slave-lords. Their chose this way so why whine now? Close but not quite. The correct answer is simply no-one. What the game does, however, is force them to do it in highsec. This is bad from pretty much every perspective. It means that you get stuff for free; it means you don't get anything extra for making an effort; it means large swaths of game content is useless and redundant; it means there is no way to attack the industrial backbone of larger alliances; it means there is no dynamics in the industrial part of the game; it means there is no incentive to hunt for better industrial foundations. So yes, they chose this way (doing it in highsec) and they rightfully whine about it because it doesn't make sense that the game should force them to do their work in a part of space they are not interested in living in. Quote:so yes. totally flawed Not in the slightest. The premise that harder work shold yield better reward is at the very core in of the game. What is flawed, however, is every single premise borne out of whatever brain-damage that causes people to believe that high should provide anything that even barely reaches above the level of being much much much worse industry than every other part of space in the game.
Apologies master, take my scythe and do with it what you will my field is yours and yours alone. |
Tesal
233
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:16:00 -
[669] - Quote
old sig
Alavaria Fera wrote:Those who do not adapt become victims of evolugafesdlkjjkhlkl
new sig
Alavaria Fera wrote:I'm a nullsec zealot
I see from your sig you have replaced you hatred for BoB with a hatred for hi-sec. I wonder if this is true of Goons in general?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13141
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:30:00 -
[670] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote: Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better pretty much the same direction in mind for the game than as those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all.
Fixed, and indeed, so your protestations are quite silly in light of this fact, don't you think? Those who actually engage in the activity, hose who have analysed the issue, and the devs GÇö they are all in agreement. Only those who haven't looked at the problem and those without any experience or insight keep protesting for no coherently articulated reason.
The only question is: if you actually understand balance perfectly, why are you so adamantly opposed to it? Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4244
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:31:00 -
[671] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand. Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better direction for the game than those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all. It doesn't seem you even understand what we want, so it's a little difficult to take anything you say seriously. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3926
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:33:00 -
[672] - Quote
Tesal wrote:old sig Alavaria Fera wrote:Those who do not adapt become victims of evolugafesdlkjjkhlkl new sig Alavaria Fera wrote:I'm a nullsec zealot I see from your sig you have replaced you hatred for BoB with a hatred for hi-sec. I wonder if this is true of Goons in general?
They don't have hatred.
They have Kryptonite augmented F5 keys and a high alliance brass decided mantra to repeat every day on the forums. They don't even see they are being manipulated like puppets or how their thoughts always perfectly align with what's written on certain 3rd party websites.
The above is supposed to implement the famous so called "Gutta cavat lapidem" effect.
Drop after drop of always repeating the same concepts tend to make them slowly accepted and thus propagate the "correct reality" to the ignorant masses.
It's almost a pity that some are completely impervious to these tricks, 22 years experience on social media are a superb vaccine. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:34:00 -
[673] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Kane Alvo wrote: Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better pretty much the same direction in mind for the game than as those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all.
Fixed, and indeed, so your protestations are quite silly in light of this fact, don't you think? Those who actually engage in the activity, hose who have analysed the issue, and the devs GÇö they are all in agreement. Only those who haven't looked at the problem and those without any experience or insight keep protesting for no coherently articulated reason. The only question is: if you actually understand balance perfectly, why are you so adamantly opposed to it? So, Tippia, you seem to know an awful lot about CCP's inner workings, when can we expect to see that POS announcement? http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:35:00 -
[674] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand. Oh, no. I understand balance perfectly. Give null bears everything they want, including a high sec nerf, because they clearly have a better direction for the game than those who designed it. See? It's not so difficult to understand after all. It doesn't seem you even understand what we want, so it's a little difficult to take anything you say seriously. Titans are balanced by cost. All reports to the contrary are by people who don't know as well as those who coded titans. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13141
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:36:00 -
[675] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote: So, Tippia, you seem to know an awful lot about CCP's inner workings, when can we expect to see that POS announcement?
Do what everyone else does: read the dev blogs. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
58
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:41:00 -
[676] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It doesn't seem you even understand what we want, so it's a little difficult to take anything you say seriously.
I'm just curious, do you have any of your own thoughts on this topic, or are you just content to be the fat kid trying to fit in at the back of the crowd chanting "YEAH! WHAT SHE SAID!" about everything? Seems to be a common theme with you. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1190
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:50:00 -
[677] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Titans are balanced by cost. All reports to the contrary are by people who don't know as well as those who coded titans.
I doubt those who originally coded titans ever even had a purpose for them. I still believe Titans where a giant troll, an excuse for CCP to make a flying **** and a space turd. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4244
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 01:53:00 -
[678] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It doesn't seem you even understand what we want, so it's a little difficult to take anything you say seriously. I'm just curious, do you have any of your own thoughts on this topic, or are you just content to be the fat kid trying to fit in at the back of the crowd chanting "YEAH! WHAT SHE SAID!" about everything? Seems to be a common theme with you. I've posted them several times in various threads. I don't remember if I've posted them specifically in this thread, but I've gotten tired of repeating myself. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 03:53:00 -
[679] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: So, Tippia, you seem to know an awful lot about CCP's inner workings, when can we expect to see that POS announcement?
Do what everyone else does: read the dev blogs. Well, you seem to have seen some stuff in those dev blogs that I didn't, so I thought I'd see if you had an inside track. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Tesal
233
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 05:28:00 -
[680] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: So, Tippia, you seem to know an awful lot about CCP's inner workings, when can we expect to see that POS announcement?
Do what everyone else does: read the dev blogs.
uhhh....There aren't any teams at CCP doing a POS revamp right now. They are doing ship re-balancing and have a lot of ships to go before they are done. They have SOV mechanics being talked about and they say they aren't happy with *that*, but that isn't what they are working on yet. There are a few things I'm forgetting too that they are working on. Most of the industry stuff wanted as a part of the "null agenda" isn't on the table right now, no teams have been assigned to do that that I know of.
But I'm just a clueless hi-sec resident and don't know the "REAL" agenda of CCP.
They did say that in 2011.
I'm sure they will get around to it SOON-«. |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 07:22:00 -
[681] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tippia wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote: So, Tippia, you seem to know an awful lot about CCP's inner workings, when can we expect to see that POS announcement?
Do what everyone else does: read the dev blogs. Well, you seem to have seen some stuff in those dev blogs that I didn't, so I thought I'd see if you had an inside track. Actually what they were doing in relation to POSs was mentioned as in a thread on Jita Park.
As the thread was started by Two Step as CCP were trying to just leave them unfixed again. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 08:25:00 -
[682] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.
If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well).
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 08:47:00 -
[683] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well). Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.
As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1190
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 08:54:00 -
[684] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.
As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?
Tech Moons aren't 0.0 only. There are some in (northern)lowsec, for example Iitanmadan has at least 2. Though I do agree the change they made to tech was a bad one.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 09:37:00 -
[685] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.
As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?
Tech Moons aren't 0.0 only. There are some in (northern)lowsec, for example Iitanmadan has at least 2. Though I do agree the change they made to tech was a bad one. Yeah I am aware of the approximate locations of the tech moons, someone posted them up recently, I was just saying that there positions are still to limited.
But it doesn't really matter as either way around, tech moons need to be taken around the back of the shed and shot. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1052
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 10:05:00 -
[686] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.
Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.
And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work. If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well). My 'vision' is not to just boost them into independence, but to give them the toys they can set up to boost the systems themselves, within rules and reason. And all improvements can be destroyed (or conquered) by a variety of fleet sizes to invite conflict. So the 'nullbears' can't just sit on their asses and enjoy the fruits of plenty, they need to fight for them or lose them.
By allowing smaller entities to harass the big bears, the highbears can come down to the nullbears and take a few bites out of the big blue donut if they feel it's too peaceful there. Grinding huge structures would only be the hamfisted way to conquer sov. Biting at ankles long enough and taking over key locations can in the long run turn a system over to you.
Variety, choices, options, consequences, customizability. It should be a sand box, not a rock quarry. Of course that would need a lot of work on the design side. I'll post my stuff once I can be arsed to put it all in words, structure and maybe even pictures. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 10:14:00 -
[687] - Quote
Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. And for what reasons is this desirable?
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 10:20:00 -
[688] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. And for what reasons is this desirable? It would allow the game to grow
It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.
It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 12:22:00 -
[689] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:It would allow the game to grow
It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.
It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience.
Nothing is stopping the game from growing, except that when people go out to null, they get slaughtered. It has nothing to do with the cost of building a Rifter out there.
Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?) If players are too stupid to realize and understand their options, then they are supposed to be worse off. Not everyone ships things TO Jita, and transactions of all sorts take place in markets other than The Forge. It just so happens that The Forge has a large population, so a large volume of the market activity that takes place happens there.
Traders already have reasons to go to null and low sec. You said yourself that lots of stuff is shipped to Jita. Well, much of that stuff comes from null, low, and W-space, and it is shipped there by "traders".
This whole thread is just a call for more Retrievers and Iterons to be flying around in null, so the null players can shoot them. If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 12:31:00 -
[690] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Frying Doom wrote:It would allow the game to grow
It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.
It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience. Nothing is stopping the game from growing, except that when people go out to null, they get slaughtered. It has nothing to do with the cost of building a Rifter out there. Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?) If players are too stupid to realize and understand their options, then they are supposed to be worse off. Not everyone ships things TO Jita, and transactions of all sorts take place in markets other than The Forge. It just so happens that The Forge has a large population, so a large volume of the market activity that takes place happens there. Traders already have reasons to go to null and low sec. You said yourself that lots of stuff is shipped to Jita. Well, much of that stuff comes from null, low, and W-space, and it is shipped there by "traders". This whole thread is just a call for more Retrievers and Iterons to be flying around in null, so the null players can shoot them. If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from? Well the supers are strangely built in null which requires being in a sov holding corp. Which I like a lot of people are not.
As to the battleships, like everything else for null I am sure they would be imported from jita requiring billions in capitals.
Something is not an option, for an industrialist if it is less profitable for greater risk and capital out lay.
As to traders I was referring to the ones that never undock. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1056
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 12:53:00 -
[691] - Quote
Abrazzar sums up what may be the flaw in null-sec getting enough quality production facilities, when he argues that null should be self sufficient.
Surely the idea is to increase the interaction between the different sectors of Eve?
Give hi-sec folk reasons to go to null - the stake-holder proposal may be one way to do this.
Hi-sec folk staying in hi-sec, lo-sec folk staying in lo-sec and null-sec folk staying in null-sec cannot be good for the game.
Perhaps the way to improve null is to do some blue-sky thinking and come up with some entirely new game-play for that part of the game.
I have no axe to grind in this, I do not care where the ships I fly are manufactured.
If we all had ways to play and prosper in all parts of Eve, perhaps the silly, 'us versus them' would die off, and we could all respect each other and different play-styles.
This is not a signature. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 12:59:00 -
[692] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?)
If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from? Because you literally can only build these titans and super carriers in nullsec? Sov nullsec, to be specific. You jump freighter in the minerals. In 425mm Railgun I form, to be specific.
Should we also say oh now you can build XXYY ONLY in nullec?
Battleships are imported in, as well. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:00:00 -
[693] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Domina Trix wrote:I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas. And for what reasons is this desirable? It would allow the game to grow It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita. It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience. But people would unsub ! This is not desirable.
Highsec, best sec, 4lyfe. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1770
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:09:00 -
[694] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Abrazzar sums up what may be the flaw in null-sec getting enough quality production facilities, when he argues that null should be self sufficient.
Surely the idea is to increase the interaction between the different sectors of Eve?
Give hi-sec folk reasons to go to null - the stake-holder proposal may be one way to do this.
Hi-sec folk staying in hi-sec, lo-sec folk staying in lo-sec and null-sec folk staying in null-sec cannot be good for the game.
Perhaps the way to improve null is to do some blue-sky thinking and come up with some entirely new game-play for that part of the game.
I have no axe to grind in this, I do not care where the ships I fly are manufactured.
If we all had ways to play and prosper in all parts of Eve, perhaps the silly, 'us versus them' would die off, and we could all respect each other and different play-styles.
Actually the part I find funniest is when people call me a null bear to justify their arguments.
Yes a change from NPC to player owned would benefit me very slightly to start with but I have no characters in Null but I would like to see all of the different areas competing and for industry to be worth while everywhere.
This is more about giving industrialists the same choices PvP players have than anything else. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13152
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:41:00 -
[695] - Quote
Tesal wrote:uhhh....There aren't any teams at CCP doing a POS revamp right now. GǪand I'm not talking about POSes either, now am I?
Quote:Most of the industry stuff wanted as a part of the "null agenda" isn't on the table right now GǪand is still in line with what's the clueless highsec-bubblers are trying to prevent. Of course, this should come as no surprise, since it rather seems to make sense that the developers want balanced gameplay. What doesn't make sense is why people with no insight into the topic want the game to be unbalancedGǪ Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 14:54:00 -
[696] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Industrialists already have more options than just-áin high sec. Fixed. Outside of highsec, industrialists only really have two options: caps and reactions. In highsec, they have everything else (which is a fair bit more). Something that is entirely senseless is not an option. Saying that they have more options is much like saying that, if accepting an L4 instantly exploded your ship and caused you to fail the mission, running them was still an option for making ISK. Senseless, harsh, cold.
EVE Online. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:08:00 -
[697] - Quote
Strange how back in that "force projection" thread I mentioned how limiting it would give you a platform for asking for industry changes. I got laughed at. I was told we NEEDED the logistics in order to survive, that null had to have highsec in order to continue on. That force projection and limited jumps would be bad.
Because it would hurt the little guy more than the large. Because null needed highsec for its' industry. That using highsec alts was too important.
I was told I didn't know what I was talking about because endorsing a change to limiting JF and Titan and cyno jump distances would be BETTER for null as it would create, as a byproduct, a stance that industry should be increased for null because the far reaches of space (the small deadend corners that large nullsecc coalitions said would be the small groups only hope for sov) wouldn't be able to survive and would need to clamor for an alternative way to accomplish that.
Such as better nullsec industry.
I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.
This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning.
I do however know how to build things step by step. I have a longer view of things and am not a slave to instant gratification. The same people who laughed me out of that thread are the ones who are clinging so hard to the idea that nullsec should have a more autonomous foothold in their sov space by not depending on highsec for industry.
Heh. Hypocrite. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2626
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:50:00 -
[698] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.
This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning.
Finish learning, then go & look at CCP's history of nerfing now & planning to make up for it later (Hint: The making up for it part never happens). You were basically suggesting another nerf to nullsec for the benefit of highsec.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:58:00 -
[699] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:flakeys wrote: And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.
So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.
Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands. If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec. If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo. That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm?
If the other areas of null that didn't have moon-goo had such a thing, you quickly would be in goonswarm or be out of null.
HTFU!...for the children! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:01:00 -
[700] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Frying Doom wrote:If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo.
That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm? If the other areas of null that didn't have moon-goo had such a thing, you quickly would be in goonswarm or be out of null. We're supposed to be that awesome? I am a nullsec zealot. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3533
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:01:00 -
[701] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.
This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning. Finish learning, then go & look at CCP's history of nerfing now & planning to make up for it later (Hint: The making up for it part never happens). You were basically suggesting another nerf to nullsec for the benefit of highsec, which would give CCP more reason to ignore the glaring holes they've left in nullsec on the basis that they had just done a revamp (nerf) for it. Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.
When it's dead. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Goldnut Sachs
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:02:00 -
[702] - Quote
goons goons goons goons goons goons |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3534
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:09:00 -
[703] - Quote
I admit, sometimes it's hard to not wonder - where can I read about "our" secret plan to wtfpwn EVE Online that I see referenced so often on General Discussion. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:36:00 -
[704] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.
This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning. Finish learning, then go & look at CCP's history of nerfing now & planning to make up for it later (Hint: The making up for it part never happens). You were basically suggesting another nerf to nullsec for the benefit of highsec, which would give CCP more reason to ignore the glaring holes they've left in nullsec on the basis that they had just done a revamp (nerf) for it.
I am not suggesting a nerf, or a buff. I am explaining to people who give a false reason, why their reason is false. I have brought up ideas that COULD fix it, in hopes that someone would explain why it wouldn't. The only answer beyond trollish behavior was "go learn about the mechanics" which I have. In any post/report/blog that shows information to learn, I have read it. I have then used that information accordingly. If any suggestion is to be had, is that CCP will change things when they deem it necessary, but they won't do it to cater a specific crowd. It will be hard to explain to the devs that YOU should have this added benefit when you already have found a more economical fix for it. That doesn't show it's broken, it shows you found a way of doing things that's "better" for you. Because in the end its about the economics of it all, which again is player driven. Profits are not a mechanic server side issue when using a player ran market.
Again, it comes down to you, not me.
It's real easy to tell someone what to do, it's far harder for you to do the effort yourself.
I am merely pointing that out.
Again, I did clamor for a change to nullsec industry; when it was said how much better npc highsec's industry is over all else, I did suggest that npc industry should be better using the same MECHANIC from highsec. Because it SHOULD.
I just don't think the argument of "risk vs reward" should be a kneejerk blanket statement as to why null should have better industry than npc, when NPC has shown to be better the entire time it has been there.
But talking about it, or having you yell at me, any other player versus player, is going only going to gain nothing but forum epeen. Being able to discuss it without antagonizing is what is going to show CCP how it's a problem.
It's not a debate. You nor I have any say in the matter apart from discussing our own opinions.
If you want to show ccp how their system needs to be reworked, using an existing working mechanic is not the way to go about it. Which is what you proved back in that power projection thread. You need to show how you cannot do it WITHOUT using the only method you have to make it work.
But thanks for contributing to the thread using half a quote so you can justify being an *******, I'm sure you are well on your way to getting things done. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 17:16:00 -
[705] - Quote
La Nariz wrote: VFK market and whatever the TEST one is are the busiest nullsec trade hubs in the game. The problem is the logistics cost is not properly rewarded and that the industrial capacity of the sov space cannot meet the demand of the trade hub. This makes a lot of people go :effort: and JF in a batch of stuff from jita instead of buying locally. I would agree with you about the self-inflicted wound thing iff the industrial capacity was there.
They aren't exactly huge hubs - the TEST one is about the size of Hek as I write this and both together don't match Rens. I certainly wouldn't bother hauling stuff to either to sell, even if I did know and have a friendly relationship with the owners.
|
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 17:51:00 -
[706] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?
I'm not seeing a lot of argument from nullsec types in favour of this equation actually having the same net result no matter where you are. The argument isn't that highsec should have low risk, low reward, and thus modest net reward, whilst nullsec has high risk, high reward, and thus modest net reward (after losses from that high risk). No, the argument is that highsec should have low risk, very low reward, and trivial net reward, and that nullsec should have 'high risk', very high reward, and very high net rewards.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3926
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 18:04:00 -
[707] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:No, the argument is that highsec should have low risk, very low reward, and trivial net reward, and that nullsec should have 'high risk', very high reward, and very high net rewards.
Expectations. Always so many of them, result always so uncertain.
I'll just leave this here.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 18:08:00 -
[708] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Frying Doom wrote: As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?
I'm not seeing a lot of argument from nullsec types in favour of this equation actually having the same net result no matter where you are. The argument isn't that highsec should have low risk, low reward, and thus modest net reward, whilst nullsec has high risk, high reward, and thus modest net reward (after losses from that high risk). No, the argument is that highsec should have low risk, very low reward, and trivial net reward, and that nullsec should have 'high risk', very high reward, and very high net rewards.
Uh....no? A lot of us think that the net being the same is fine. The problem is that it absolutely is not for nullsec industry, simply because hisec is better not only in risk of logistics but also in terms of station services and minerals available.
If there's anything biased about an average nullseccer's perception of risk vs. reward it's the very human tendency to overrate your abilities and believe that you should be getting very high net rewards because you are clearly better than anyone at mitigating the risk. Much like 90% of people asked if they are better than the "average driver" will say yes.
This argument would have some merit in stuff like say, perceived rewards for ratting/exploration in 0.0 where it's at least a bit more grey if risk reward is in balance compared to missioners/incursion runners.
But as long as highsec industry has all the advantages over nullsec industry, this particular instance of risk vs. reward is a very black and white issue. And despite highseccers and nullseccers individual perceptions of CCP being biased one way or the other (generally biased in favor of the other security status, heh), and CCP not being perfect, at least there is a *relatively* neutral party actually arbitrating what changes are made. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 19:13:00 -
[709] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Uh....no? A lot of us think that the net being the same is fine. The problem is that it absolutely is not for nullsec industry, simply because hisec is better not only in risk of logistics but also in terms of station services and minerals available.
If there's anything biased about an average nullseccer's perception of risk vs. reward it's the very human tendency to overrate your abilities and believe that you should be getting very high net rewards because you are clearly better than anyone at mitigating the risk. Much like 90% of people asked if they are better than the "average driver" will say yes. It's because people learned to not be morons are are now able to use the intel channel.
This means local needs to be nerfed. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 19:38:00 -
[710] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:hisec is better not only in risk of logistics but also in terms of station services and minerals available.
Exhibit A: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16718947
Exhibit B:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Starbase_&_Sovereignty_Structures:Starbase_Structures:Assembly_Arrays
Exhibit C: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Locations_of_ore_and_ice_in_space
Zhade Lezte wrote:highsec industry has all the advantages over nullsec industry
So move to high sec. See you in Jita!
P.s.Tippia wrote:Saying that they have more options is much like saying that, if accepting an L4 instantly exploded your ship and caused you to fail the mission, running them was still an option for making ISK.
Can you exaggerate that just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or something about bunny genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey. |
|
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 20:11:00 -
[711] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.
When it's dead.
Let it die. Reading these threads, it sure sounds like you need high sec a lot more than high sec needs you. And that's the part the pisses off the null bears the most.
Null sec has ABC, but they want XYZ. High sec has XYZ, so nerf high sec.
Sounds fair. Where's my snazzy Vote for Malcanis campaign button? Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1771
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 21:36:00 -
[712] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.
When it's dead. Let it die. Reading these threads, it sure sounds like you need high sec a lot more than high sec needs you. And that's the part the pisses off the null bears the most. Null sec has ABC, but they want XYZ. High sec has XYZ, so nerf high sec. Sounds fair. Where's my snazzy Vote for Malcanis campaign button? I will admit I cant believe there are people around that would like to see EvE turned into Hi-sec online.
Yes there are people who like Hi-sec, people who need it.
I used to work 14 hours a day 6 days a week and frankly I enjoyed my mining on my day off, I was stuffed and the idea of running around in lo-sec even was too much as I was more zombie than alive
But never was I so simple minded to think that the rest of the game was unimportant and did not need improvements. Yes I argued for the fact that mining barges needed better stats but I did not argue that they shouldn't be able to be ganked.
They are both sides of the same coin just like Dangerous areas of space need better industry while Hi-sec retains its capabilities.
Just as players who want to fund their own production facilities should be rewarded but those that do not should not be massively handicapped.
I cannot believe the level of entitlement I have read in this thread, that people In hi-sec believe that they should have the best rewards, the least on No risk, Massive facilities costing nothing and no competition, while at the same time believing that other areas of this game should make due on frankly bugger all.
It is a sad state of affairs that anyone who was not mentally handicapped would believe this. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 21:44:00 -
[713] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.
When it's dead. Let it die. Reading these threads, it sure sounds like you need high sec a lot more than high sec needs you. And that's the part the pisses off the null bears the most. Null sec has ABC, but they want XYZ. High sec has XYZ, so nerf high sec. Sounds fair. Where's my snazzy Vote for Malcanis campaign button? I will admit I cant believe there are people around that would like to see EvE turned into Hi-sec online. Yes there are people who like Hi-sec, people who need it. I used to work 14 hours a day 6 days a week and frankly I enjoyed my mining on my day off, I was stuffed and the idea of running around in lo-sec even was too much as I was more zombie than alive But never was I so simple minded to think that the rest of the game was unimportant and did not need improvements. Yes I argued for the fact that mining barges needed better stats but I did not argue that they shouldn't be able to be ganked. They are both sides of the same coin just like Dangerous areas of space need better industry while Hi-sec retains its capabilities. Just as players who want to fund their own production facilities should be rewarded but those that do not should not be massively handicapped. I cannot believe the level of entitlement I have read in this thread, that people In hi-sec believe that they should have the best rewards, the least on No risk, Massive facilities costing nothing and no competition, while at the same time believing that other areas of this game should make due on frankly bugger all. It is a sad state of affairs that anyone who was not mentally handicapped would believe this. Highsec is the way of the future. The only question is the rate of convergence, and the mechanism involved. I am a nullsec zealot. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4263
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:14:00 -
[714] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:So move to high sec. See you in Jita! You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots? Yeah... we're way ahead of you there. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:20:00 -
[715] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote:highsec industry has all the advantages over nullsec industry So move to high sec. See you in Jita!
Hey I'm making the best of a terribly broken situation already. Two characters doing industry in highsec with a third one training up. And highsec's inherent safety leaves a lovely amount of fat, bloated fools that can't even bother to learn enough about the game enough to take the minimal amounts of steps to ensure that their cargo is immune from scanning (or have and have decided to not take the steps anyways), and have managed to get hilariously rich and complacement in spite of this.
Of course, clearly linking an example of one of these eve-o darwin awards losing a heap of industrial goods "proves" that nullsec is 100% safe and not that highsec is, in fact, not 100% idiot-proof. (Maybe we can conclude that the relative lack of nullsec freighter killmails filled with industry goods means that nullsec industry is fine? There certainly can't be other reasons, like a lack of nullsec freighters carrying industrial goods to gank in the first place.)
So thankfully I've carved my niche in this space. Of course, expecting all wannabe nullsec industrialists to just "go to highsec" is terribly uncouth of you, as I will explain...
PS: Guess whose industry alt also flies a talos and is on that killmail you linked?
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Tippia wrote:Saying that they have more options is much like saying that, if accepting an L4 instantly exploded your ship and caused you to fail the mission, running them was still an option for making ISK. Can you exaggerate that just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or something about bunny genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey.
...about now. Okay, let me try to actually communicate to you instead of failing and being as sarcastic and snippy as I am in earlier in this post*
Think about this:
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're a mission runner who loves highsec, can't take those nullsec jerks or whatever the heck. The freedom of action, ability to play casual, whatever means that highsec is the place you want to be.
But CCP changed the game recently and now highsec mission running is broken! Maybe it's Tippia's L4 accepting ship explosion bug, maybe the rewards are just worse than mining veldspar, who knows.
You go to the forums to ask for help! You try to explain, in as much detail as possible, how it's wrong, what can be done to change it without horribly breaking the game, or whatnot.
I, a fiendish nullsec zealot, respond with a brief reply, where I, uh, maybe...
...link a killmail of a deadspace-fit tengu that is actually a highsec exploration tengu or something. "Hah, missions are broken indeed". I chortle to myself.
...link the military connections skillbook, showing that I am completely ignorant of the wider issue with missioning and think that you just need to get more LP or something.
...and then, to cap off my masterful post:
"So move to nullsec. See you in Providence!"
I mean, you would make better ISK doing anomalies in CVA's NRDS space if missions were broken, so why wouldn't you move there?
*yet I still couldn't help being a bit sarcastic in my analogy. So it goes! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4264
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:27:00 -
[716] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.
When it's dead. Let it die. Reading these threads, it sure sounds like you need high sec a lot more than high sec needs you. And that's the part the pisses off the null bears the most. Null sec has ABC, but they want XYZ. High sec has XYZ, so nerf high sec. Sounds fair. Where's my snazzy Vote for Malcanis campaign button? Yeah, you don't get it. More like: Highsec has 100% Nullsec has 20% Nullsec really should be 20% better than highsec or some other random number However you can't get higher than 100% without breaking things So highsec has to be nerfed and nullsec is made at or close to 100%
Why does nullsec deserve the ability to make better facilities than in highsec? Because we BUILD THEM. We spend billions and billions of ISK on facilities yet with the current state of affairs, they're nowhere CLOSE to the capabilities of facilities that highsec residents get FOR FREE. Because our facilities are at actual risk of being captured or destroyed. Because what we have right now isn't a conflict driver. Materials being sent to highsec to build ships and then ships being sent back down to nullsec doesn't really put any part of this at risk Because nullsec is, as stated by CCP, a place where we're supposed to build empires. We can't have empires without industry Because we have industrialists who want to play in nullsec but don't because the current state of affairs makes doing so entirely pointless Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4264
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:31:00 -
[717] - Quote
So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Dave Stark
1942
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:32:00 -
[718] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability?
because why shouldn't i be entitled to that? you're tired, stop posting. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4264
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:35:00 -
[719] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability? because why shouldn't i be entitled to that? Gee I don't know, maybe all of the reasons I listed above and more. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Dave Stark
1942
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:40:00 -
[720] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability? because why shouldn't i be entitled to that? Gee I don't know, maybe all of the reasons I listed above and more. i thought that was just a list of why null sec should be buffed, rather than high sec being nerfed. *shrug* you're tired, stop posting. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4264
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:42:00 -
[721] - Quote
It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Dave Stark
1944
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:45:00 -
[722] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread.
aww, you're no fun. you're tired, stop posting. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:47:00 -
[723] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability? because why shouldn't i be entitled to that? CCP had the NPCs give it to you, nuff' said. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Dave Stark
1944
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:48:00 -
[724] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:So let me ask YOU
Why do YOU feel entitled to a massive, risk-free, instantly available, and virtually cost-free industrial capability? because why shouldn't i be entitled to that? CCP had the NPCs give it to you, nuff' said. but i did a bunch of missions for them, and now we're best buddies... you're tired, stop posting. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4265
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:49:00 -
[725] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread. aww, you're no fun. I'm really bad at spotting trolls sometimes... Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Dave Stark
1944
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:51:00 -
[726] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread. aww, you're no fun. I'm really bad at spotting trolls sometimes... so it would seem :) don't feel too bad, i have cloaking trained to V. you're tired, stop posting. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5565
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:54:00 -
[727] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: so it would seem :) don't feel too bad, i have cloaking trained to V.
Confirming you cloak your hulks. |
Dave Stark
1945
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:56:00 -
[728] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote: so it would seem :) don't feel too bad, i have cloaking trained to V.
Confirming you cloak your hulks.
you think i mine in a hulk, that's cute. you're tired, stop posting. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5566
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 23:02:00 -
[729] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
you think i mine in a hulk, that's cute.
Nobody can be sure as its cloaked. |
Dave Stark
1945
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 23:03:00 -
[730] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
you think i mine in a hulk, that's cute.
Nobody can be sure as its cloaked.
touche. well played. you're tired, stop posting. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3926
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 23:50:00 -
[731] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread.
That null sec should be improved is a no brainer.
But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad?
I mean, when perm Hulkageddon became expansive enough, miners stopped mining, CCP detected prices quadruplicating in 2 months and proceeded overbuffing barges.
So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec?
- The lack of sov claimed space?
- The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances?
- The extreme poverty of the populace in there
- The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them?
- The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1773
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:05:00 -
[732] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's already been said several times why nullsec can't properly be buffed without highsec being nerfed. Tippia and Malcanis can both demonstrate that part of the argument a lot better than I can, and they've posted their reasons several times in this thread. That null sec should be improved is a no brainer. But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad? I mean, when perma Hulkageddon became expansive enough, miners stopped mining, CCP detected prices quadruplicating in 2 months and proceeded overbuffing barges. When incursions proved to rise inflation too much, CCP detected prices rising 10% a year and proceeded nerfing them. When new FW proved to bring in too much income, CCP detected prices rising and nerfed them as well. So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec? - The lack of sov claimed space? - The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances? - The extreme poverty of the populace in there - The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them? - The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them? The lack of claimed space is more to do with Sov mechanics than Industry, but touching on Industry it is due to the massive afk mining called moon goo.
They need massive alliances to protect the moongoo from any one else
Yes the populace is poor I have to agree with you there, the alliances aren't but the populace is.
High ends do not only occur in Null, but null mining has increased strangely at the same time bots were getting hammered in hi-sec.
And yes there are a lot of supers in Null, I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact it is the only thing worth doing as everything else can be imported cheaper. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4270
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:17:00 -
[733] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad? Clearly because we like pewpew.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:When incursions proved to rise inflation too much, CCP detected prices rising 10% a year and proceeded nerfing them. And then they reversed half of those nerfs.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:When new FW proved to bring in too much income, CCP detected prices rising and nerfed them as well. Yeah, well that was ridiculously broken. FW is still pretty profitable, more than it was before the new FW. It's not broken anymore.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec?
- The lack of sov claimed space?
- The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances?
- The extreme poverty of the populace in there
- The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them?
- The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them? - The inability to make a reasonable buff to nullsec that doesn't break industry entirely without nerfing highsec to some extent.
I should also clarify that the nerf to highsec industry would apply to stations only. In fact I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS. This way highsec players can have some reasonable access to facilities (not OMFG AMAZINGLY FREE NO ASSEMBLY REQUIRED) with the risk of getting wardecced and having their facilities destroyed, and also requiring some effort to start up.
Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.
Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.
But you're still simply avoiding the issue of why highsec has such advanced, high capacity facilities available to anyone at almost no cost whatsoever, with no investment, no effort, and no risk. What could possibly lead you to believe this is actually good game balance? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:34:00 -
[734] - Quote
There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.
I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.
I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1773
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:40:00 -
[735] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.
I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.
I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs. Null industry can never be better than Hi in the areas of safety and ease of logistics, so no matter what is done Hi-sec will always have its up sides. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Apocryphal Noise
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:51:00 -
[736] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:equal ..
the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.
So you stated the premise was flawed but you never told us what you think the pemise is? Nullsec sucks for everything but ratting and moon mining. And considering the costs and enourmous effort required to keep and hold nullsec long enough to build infrastructure, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that we have virtually no industrial capacity and we have a complete reliance on jita. There's a reason industrialists in nullsec are kind of joke unless you're doing reactions. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:53:00 -
[737] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.
I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.
I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs. Null industry can never be better than Hi in the areas of safety and ease of logistics, so no matter what is done Hi-sec will always have its up sides. But that isn't ENOUGH for highsec. Highsec should be better in terms of slots and cost as well. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:58:00 -
[738] - Quote
Things would look a lot more like VV expects nullsec to look given nullseccers descriptions of it if everyone was occupied with maximizing their ISK profits above all else. Which is an understandable mistake because that is, as far as I can tell, one of VV's main goals in Eve (which is an acceptable goal, just so we're all clear).
Buzzy Warstl wrote:There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.
I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.
I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs.
We'll never have the advantage of CONCORD protection. Our factories, haulers, miners, you name it will always be vulnerable to being forever destroyed or at least captured with our assets locked from our reach unless we can reclaim the station. And if we're beaten in war and lose all our space, we're done. Our little empire isn't self-sufficient anymore.
And this possibility of loss is a huge appeal for us. We should be motivated to fight to defend space so we can retain self-sufficiency, not just to keep tech moons and otherwise who cares if we lose sov like it is today.
I mean hell, it's even in the lore of CCP. Sansha's Nation is supposed to be some NPC empire of mind-controlled slaves that exists independent of empire space and even poses a threat to it, but if Sansha's Nation was a capsuleer alliance? Hah, Sansha Kuvakei better enslave a couple NPC corp freighter pilots to freight all the battleships to a station at the edge of highsec where a jump freighter will ferry them the rest of the way! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 01:59:00 -
[739] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: And then they reversed half of those nerfs.
Yeah I was one of those asking for incursions to be nerfed but the partial reversal makes sense, as people had completely stopped doing them.
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I should also clarify that the nerf to highsec industry would apply to stations only. In fact I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS. This way highsec players can have some reasonable access to facilities (not OMFG AMAZINGLY FREE NO ASSEMBLY REQUIRED) with the risk of getting wardecced and having their facilities destroyed, and also requiring some effort to start up.
Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.
Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.
I have some doubts about the italics sentence, both as how people will see it and about having it done properly (and not in some stupid way, like pizza targeting, "improved inventory" that stayed broken for half a year and so on.
James Amril-Kesh wrote: But you're still simply avoiding the issue of why highsec has such advanced, high capacity facilities available to anyone at almost no cost whatsoever, with no investment, no effort, and no risk. What could possibly lead you to believe this is actually good game balance?
I never avoided admitting that hi sec should be completely removed, feel free to check my past posts including in this thread. If that's avoidance, then I suppose we can start doing it at once and nobody will have an issue with it right? That'd fix a lot of issues including misbalances.
But since it won't happen, I have to look at what would be the effect of such proposals like yours:
- NPC Refineries, once nerfed at null sec quality would still provide almost no loss to people with proper skills / implants. Thus the nerf would be ineffective for anyone except new players. Do you see anything wrong with this? That's why I'd have preferred doing something like imposing very long refining times instead of ISK loss.
- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK. So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard!
Now enter most of the other guys who are not setup like that, I dare say they would be "mildly inconvenienced" for one good year of their gameplay. Does EvE still have such an attraction value that players would bother with that? There's Elite: dangerous in the make. I'll go check that out myself, imagine the others.
Basically your idea is good game balance (less than my idea to remove hi and low sec but still...) but to me it sounds like those doctors who announce: "the surgery was a success, but the patient died".
Do you really believe that imposing sucky burdens (POS micromanagement that nobody likes) and expenses will gain EvE success on the long term?
In that case I have an Europe to sell you. We are doing so good with austerity at all costs exactly during a crysis... But as right yesterday a German guy said on TV, "it's fair balance". Hopefully he won't be the first to get lynched when people will revolt thanks to such fairness. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:00:00 -
[740] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Things would look a lot more like VV expects nullsec to look given nullseccers descriptions of it if everyone was occupied with maximizing their ISK profits above all else. Which is an understandable mistake because that is, as far as I can tell, one of VV's main goals in Eve (which is an acceptable goal, just so we're all clear). Buzzy Warstl wrote:There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.
I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.
I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs. We'll never have the advantage of CONCORD protection. Our factories, haulers, miners, you name it will always be vulnerable to being forever destroyed or at least captured with our assets locked from our reach unless we can reclaim the station. And if we're beaten in war and lose all our space, we're done. Our little empire isn't self-sufficient anymore. And this possibility of loss is a huge appeal for us. We should be motivated to fight to defend space so we can retain self-sufficiency, not just to keep tech moons and otherwise who cares if we lose sov like it is today. So the possibility of loss is a huge appeal eh? Well you got it. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:07:00 -
[741] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: So the possibility of loss is a huge appeal eh? Well you got it.
Possibility of loss is one of the few factors that makes EvE an unique and worth playing game. Without it, EvE would be a very outdated, bad made simulation, without dogfights nor interior gameplay, with negligible PvE and still, absolutely basic PvP relying on mouse and on one second long reaction times regardless of the player. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:08:00 -
[742] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
[a whole bunch of being mired in specifics]
I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.
It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.
Hell, maybe if they released new modules with the revamp and change to highsec industry greedy marketeers like you and I wouldn't be able to profit off it
Refining is an iffy thing as well. Some think that an automatic mining tax would be better than nerfing highsec refineries to keep miners from just jump freighting everything to highsec, and that null outposts should get stations equal to highsec in terms of industrial capability, containing refineries and also access to sufficient manufacturing slots. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
284
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:11:00 -
[743] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.
Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.
Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.
I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required - is no buff to high sec industry. You guys can keep calling it a buff, but it would be a game-changing nerf. And "small-time industrialists" (new players, casual players) aren't going to find any of this making their games "easier."
What. Ever.
I don't really care what is done to fix the game, (assuming the game needs fixing) but no one's going to sell me hooch and call it Johnny Walker Blue.
More available public slots is supposed to be some bonus? They're available now. And it won't matter anyway - folks would still need a pos to profit like everybody else. I don't know any better way to write it except to write that tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not a buff. Nor is increasing the cost of doing business by a factor of thousands. All any of this would accomplish is reduce player fluidity and raise the bar (startup costs) on the time it takes to establish a new, successful indy corp. I really can't wait to hear from more high-sec industrialists expressing their unbridaled joy at the need for multiple pos's and hundreds of added freighter jumps per week. I'm sure they're on their way.
Annnnny minute now.
YK "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:15:00 -
[744] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.
Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.
Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly. I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required - is no buff to high sec industry. You guys can keep calling it a buff, but it would be a game-changing nerf. And "small-time industrialists" (new players, casual players) aren't going to find any of this making their games "easier." What. Ever. I don't really care what is done to fix the game, (assuming the game needs fixing) but no one's going to sell me hooch and call it Johnny Walker Blue. More available public slots is supposed to be some bonus? They're available now. And it won't matter anyway - folks would still need a pos to profit like everybody else. I don't know any better way to write it except to write that tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not a buff. Nor is increasing the cost of doing business by a factor of thousands. All any of this would accomplish is reduce player fluidity and raise the bar (startup costs) on the time it takes to establish a new, successful indy corp. I really can't wait to hear from more high-sec industrialists expressing their unbridaled joy at the need for multiple pos's and hundreds of added freighter jumps per week. I'm sure they're on their way. Annnnny minute now. YK
Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the reality of needing to refine and build in separate stations (and sometimes sell in a third!)
Anyways, most of the PoS proponents in discussion elsewhere have suggested that PoS be able to refine as well, so they'd be a lot more functional than the PoS that exist today.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:16:00 -
[745] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote: I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.
It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.
I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come
Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp.
Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about:
1) Finishing T1 tiericide. 2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp. 3) Doing faction ships tiericide. 4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships. 5) POS revamp 6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever.
This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:19:00 -
[746] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required Of course not, that sort of rubbish is for the nullseccers to deal with.
Harsh and cold outside of highsec. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:27:00 -
[747] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote: I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.
It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.
I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp. Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about: 1) Finishing T1 tiericide. 2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp. 3) Doing faction ships tiericide. 4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships. 5) POS revamp 6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever. This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today?
Bah, being greedy is a point of pride (I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)
And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.
Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that.
In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1773
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:33:00 -
[748] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote: I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.
It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.
I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp. Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about: 1) Finishing T1 tiericide. 2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp. 3) Doing faction ships tiericide. 4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships. 5) POS revamp 6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever. This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today? Bah, being greedy is a point of pride (I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance) And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard. Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that. In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line. I think CCP has left the clock ticking for so long, leaving things broken that with all the cool games that have been announced they are crapping them selves a bit. Which is why we have the new idea of them working of a lot of different things at the same time to try to reduce as many of the broken mechanics as possible before those games release. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4270
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:35:00 -
[749] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I never avoided admitting that hi sec should be completely removed, feel free to check my past posts including in this thread. Frankly I think that's equally stupid. There are people who enjoy the relative safety that highsec offers. So long as it isn't complete safe and people are still able to be held accountable for their own stupidity. Highsec is fine as long as it doesn't get any safer.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:- NPC Refineries, once nerfed at null sec quality would still provide almost no loss to people with proper skills / implants. Thus the nerf would be ineffective for anyone except new players. Do you see anything wrong with this? That's rather easy to fix, just reduce the bonus to refining amounts someone can get with skills, standings, etc. Don't reduce the base, simply reduce the cap. Say, maximum possible refine you can get would be 85% in an NPC station. If someone wants perfect refine they can do it in a POS. Ideally POS facilities should be superior in some ways to NPC station facilities, including refining.
Basically your idea is good game balance (less than my idea to remove hi and low sec but still...) but to me it sounds like those doctors who announce: "the surgery was a success, but the patient died".
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Do you really believe that imposing sucky burdens (POS micromanagement that nobody likes) and expenses will gain EvE success on the long term? Said POS micromanagement would hopefully be addressed in this expansion or in a prior one. I agree that imposing it on people would be an unfair burden. People will whine about expenses at first, and then they'll forget they were ever there. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:39:00 -
[750] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Bah, being greedy is a point of pride (I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance) Greed is good.
So is highsec. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 02:58:00 -
[751] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: I think CCP has left the clock ticking for so long, leaving things broken that with all the cool games that have been announced they are crapping them selves a bit. Which is why we have the new idea of them working of a lot of different things at the same time to try to reduce as many of the broken mechanics as possible before those games release.
Yeah I was thinking of that while trying to edit my reply you quoted to be a bit more nuanced than my fairly simplistic answer.
I mean, a lot of veteran nullsec players are probably very obsessed and invested in this game so theoretically CCP can ignore us longer like they have, but even that patience has a limit, and a lot of people I know barely play Eve and instead play these other new and interesting games while talking on jabber about Eve. And at least a few players I know have gone from that step to not playing Eve at all.
I don't even know about these other other games that have been announced but not yet released save Star Citizen because Eve is pretty much the only game I have time to play due to real life, but if there are more interesting games come out...welp. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:04:00 -
[752] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?
Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now? Also, no, I don't know how we small time empire industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots. I'll grant you that there are very rarely any ME, PE, or Copying slots open but there are a lot of ways to deal with a lack of station industry slots. Maybe we could teach you guys about some of them, since you don't seem to be familiar with the work-arounds.
Zhade Lezte wrote:Hey I'm making the best of a terribly broken situation already. Two characters doing industry in highsec with a third one training up . . . Guess whose industry alt also flies a talos and is on that killmail you linked?
We're all making the best of "broken" situations. Some are more broken than others. Until you tell us how to measure its broken-ness (i.e. lack of ships and other production), we can't really gauge how broken it is. You may not like limitations, but they are a crucial part of the gaming condition. Without them, we'd just have infinite pawns, rooks, bishops, knights, queens, and kings rushing forward endlessly massacring eachother.
Rather than looking at it as if null sec has far fewer industry slots than high sec (and low sec), maybe you should look at it this way: EVE has a finite number of station industry slots, expandable only to a theoretical hard limit, and those slots are distributed unevenly throughout the galaxy, such that players must choose whether to place more emphasis on utilizing those slots or on gathering resources. The result of that decisions determines whether they choose to spend most of their time in high sec, low sec, null sec, or even wormhole space.
You've made your choice, and even circumvented much of the consequence through your "clever" use of alts. If you don't like the results of your choice, choose again.
Zhade Lezte wrote:::a cool story::
Cool story, bro. I especially enjoyed the part where I was a hardcore mission-bear having to brave 0.0 space. To boldy carebear where no carebear has carebeared before . . . that would be AWESOME!
My only request: Could you exaggerate it just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or possibly something about pony genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey. |
Zhade Lezte
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:11:00 -
[753] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You've made your choice, and even circumvented much of the consequence through your "clever" use of alts. If you don't like the results of your choice, choose again.
Well if this stops working out enough for me I'll choose to not play Eve Online. So it goes.
Doesn't mean the game can't be improved!
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Cool story, bro. I especially enjoyed the part where I was a hardcore mission-bear having to brave 0.0 space. To boldy carebear where no carebear has carebeared before . . . that would be AWESOME!
My only request: Could you exaggerate it just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or possibly something about pony genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey.
Why thank you my posting is pretty great if I do say so myself. Maybe you even learned something! That would be pretty great |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4270
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:16:00 -
[754] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots? Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now? Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.
And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken". YEAH OKAY Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1773
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:18:00 -
[755] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote: Maybe you even learned something! Only the all mighty BoB can perform miracles.
All praise BoB! We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3536
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:19:00 -
[756] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots? Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now? Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone. And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken". YEAH OKAY What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1773
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:21:00 -
[757] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots? Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now? Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone. And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken". YEAH OKAY What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null? Actually I thought he meant he would like to see the Null sec residents flood all of the available slots in Hi-sec so he can enjoy how not broken the system is We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:30:00 -
[758] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots? Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now? Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone. And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken". YEAH OKAY What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null? Actually I thought he meant he would like to see the Null sec residents flood all of the available slots in Hi-sec so he can enjoy how not broken the system is No, you see, it's because blue donut tech and renters. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:35:00 -
[759] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!)
Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4271
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:36:00 -
[760] - Quote
That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1774
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:37:00 -
[761] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote:Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!) Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting. You seemed very obsessed with Goonswarm while at the same time being very ignorant as to how the tech income works. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1193
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:38:00 -
[762] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.
I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:39:00 -
[763] - Quote
It's all about the goons and their blue donut tech renters I am a nullsec zealot. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:39:00 -
[764] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons. Dammmmitttttt, GEWNS !!! I am a nullsec zealot. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1193
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:40:00 -
[765] - Quote
Still bitter you guys blew up the graveyard POS years ago. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1774
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:42:00 -
[766] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons. I have a stubborn hatred for Goons but that doesn't mean that I am trying to destroy the game. For example if he had any brains he would be asking for a massive Hi-sec industry nerf with no Null fixes as that is where Goons are doing their Industry now.
If you are going to try to crush your enemies using game mechanics, well you are already saying bugger everyone else so do it properly. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:44:00 -
[767] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons. I have a stubborn hatred for Goons but that doesn't mean that I am trying to destroy the game. For example if he had any brains he would be asking for a massive Hi-sec industry nerf with no Null fixes as that is where Goons are doing their Industry now. If you are going to try to crush your enemies using game mechanics, well you are already saying bugger everyone else so do it properly. You have to crush everyone because our alts are everywhere~~~~ I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1774
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:47:00 -
[768] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons. I have a stubborn hatred for Goons but that doesn't mean that I am trying to destroy the game. For example if he had any brains he would be asking for a massive Hi-sec industry nerf with no Null fixes as that is where Goons are doing their Industry now. If you are going to try to crush your enemies using game mechanics, well you are already saying bugger everyone else so do it properly. You have to crush everyone because our alts are everywhere~~~~ Exactly
If you have a good enough hatred for someone that the thought of it gaining some improvement fills you with hatred....Well you can't make an omelet
Why stop at one type of space, crush them all then the Goons will never prosper. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1194
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 03:58:00 -
[769] - Quote
Or just ignore Goons all together and do whats right for the longevity of the game.
I never understood peoples obsession with the Goons. Similar to MC, Bob, NC(nodot) they will fall sooner or later, most likely through self implosion.
When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1774
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:01:00 -
[770] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Or just ignore Goons all together and do whats right for the longevity of the game.
I never understood peoples obsession with the Goons. Similar to MC, Bob, NC(nodot) they will fall sooner or later, most likely through self implosion.
When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game. No they probably don't
But in relation to the Goons The Emperor: You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.
The Emperor: Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.
But at the end of the day if the leave everything this unbalanced there are some good games coming up. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:18:00 -
[771] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if your "null sec industrialists" are doing all their industry in high sec, they're ducks.
Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? That way, you all wouldn't have to come on the forums and **** and moan about how CCP needs to "fix" your problem of not knowing how to do industry.
Also, why don't the ducks stick up for themselves? Why do they choose to work under these horrendous conditions? Just come to high sec, guys, and charge the "pvpers" an arm and a leg for your products. Quit degrading yourselves. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:22:00 -
[772] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Or just ignore Goons all together and do whats right for the longevity of the game.
I never understood peoples obsession with the Goons. Similar to MC, Bob, NC(nodot) they will fall sooner or later, most likely through self implosion.
When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game. No they probably don't But in relation to the Goons The Emperor: You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant. The Emperor: Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. But at the end of the day if the leave everything this unbalanced there are some good games coming up. Raging at us on the internet forums will not turn you into us though.
For that, you have to submit an appropriate security deposit and be checked by the anti-spy directors. I am a nullsec zealot. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4273
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:30:00 -
[773] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? I'm having a hard time putting into words just how stupid your post is. It's seriously mind-blowingly stupid, and you MAY have been excused for it if we hadn't said many MANY times in this very same thread how it's actually NOT POSSIBLE TO DO. But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Ryu Ibarazaki
Brave Newbies Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:34:00 -
[774] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm having a hard time putting into words just how stupid your post is. It's seriously mind-blowingly stupid, and you MAY have been excused for it if we hadn't said many MANY times in this very same thread how it's actually NOT POSSIBLE TO DO. But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.
The EVE sandbox in action, James. Some people play in the sand. Some people eat the samd.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4274
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:40:00 -
[775] - Quote
"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game." "Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you." Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 04:55:00 -
[776] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game." "Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you." Use highsec, get some low risk free. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:00:00 -
[777] - Quote
Actually, I have great admiration for the Goons. Near as I can tell, and by any measure of success, they're winning Eve. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:01:00 -
[778] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game." "Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you." There was an article I read, that said when trying to get your point across don't insult people.
But lets face it after a while you just get sick of it and tell people to clean up the drool running down themselves. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4275
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:13:00 -
[779] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game." "Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you." There was an article I read, that said when trying to get your point across don't insult people. But lets face it after a while you just get sick of it and tell people to clean up the drool running down themselves. How can I not be frustrated when faced with such blatant displays of DERP Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:18:00 -
[780] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game." "Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you." There was an article I read, that said when trying to get your point across don't insult people. But lets face it after a while you just get sick of it and tell people to clean up the drool running down themselves. Also, the point won't get across the some people. It's like a sea of badposting and idiocy in:
GENERAL DISCUSSION. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Goldnut Sachs
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:27:00 -
[781] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? I'm having a hard time putting into words just how stupid your post is. It's seriously mind-blowingly stupid, and you MAY have been excused for it if we hadn't said many MANY times in this very same thread how it's actually NOT POSSIBLE TO DO. But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. You fell hard for a full-tard troll, shame on you. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:28:00 -
[782] - Quote
Goldnut Sachs wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? I'm having a hard time putting into words just how stupid your post is. It's seriously mind-blowingly stupid, and you MAY have been excused for it if we hadn't said many MANY times in this very same thread how it's actually NOT POSSIBLE TO DO. But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. You fell hard for a full-tard troll, shame on you. This is a pretty good point.
But is it really a troll, or will they just ~puppetmaster~ away their being owned... I am a nullsec zealot. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
597
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:33:00 -
[783] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if your "null sec industrialists" are doing all their industry in high sec, they're ducks. Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? That way, you all wouldn't have to come on the forums and **** and moan about how CCP needs to "fix" your problem of not knowing how to do industry. Also, why don't the ducks stick up for themselves? Why do they choose to work under these horrendous conditions? Just come to high sec, guys, and charge the "pvpers" an arm and a leg for your products. Quit degrading yourselves.
We null-seccers would be more than happy to move everything we do into nullsec. Our space is plenty secure, it's just that null sec industry is possibly the worst thing ever invented. It's not that it's dangerous, but it is many times easier AND more profitable to do in high sec. We'd rather not have our industry guys go insane from having to make a million righter and JF jumps to be able to do the same thing as you can do in ONE station in high-sec. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:38:00 -
[784] - Quote
removed, I didnt think much of that joke. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3537
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:39:00 -
[785] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if your "null sec industrialists" are doing all their industry in high sec, they're ducks. Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? That way, you all wouldn't have to come on the forums and **** and moan about how CCP needs to "fix" your problem of not knowing how to do industry. Also, why don't the ducks stick up for themselves? Why do they choose to work under these horrendous conditions? Just come to high sec, guys, and charge the "pvpers" an arm and a leg for your products. Quit degrading yourselves. We null-seccers would be more than happy to move everything we do into nullsec. Our space is plenty secure, it's just that null sec industry is possibly the worst thing ever invented. It's not that it's dangerous, but it is many times easier AND more profitable to do in high sec. We'd rather not have our industry guys go insane from having to make a million righter and JF jumps to be able to do the same thing as you can do in ONE station in high-sec. Edit: Here is a fantastic article on the subject: http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry "They're too weak if they go insane from doing pointlessly annoying things rather than taking the obviously god-sent and approved path of highsec first" I am a nullsec zealot. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:59:00 -
[786] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.
What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are: a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null. b. You are too lazy to build **** in null. c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.
For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.
Do you even DO industry? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7014
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:05:00 -
[787] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are: a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null. b. You are too lazy to build **** in null. c. You are too greedy to build **** in null. For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter. Do you even DO industry?
do you even do industry?
we build supercaps in 0.0 because, well, you can't build them elsewhere - if supercaps could be built in lowsec, that's where they'd be built. if they could be built in highsec, that's where they'd be built.
but if your line of logic is "well supercaps are built in 0.0 so industry is fine there!" i'm not even going to bother pointing out how full of holes it is ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7014
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:06:00 -
[788] - Quote
also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market
i hope i have enlightened you with this tidbit of knowledge ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1196
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:13:00 -
[789] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are: a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null. b. You are too lazy to build **** in null. c. You are too greedy to build **** in null. For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter. Do you even DO industry?
If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.
Or something just isn't clicking.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:14:00 -
[790] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time. What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are: a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null. b. You are too lazy to build **** in null. c. You are too greedy to build **** in null. For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter. Do you even DO industry? Lets examine your wonderful expansion of Null sec Industry
to build a battle cruiser for example in G-YT55 for example
Now their is no stations there but their are lo-ends
So I set up a POS and go mining. I get the lo-ends I need and put them into the refinery.
Where I immediately lose 25% of what I mined
So as it would be completely ridiculous to build any thing here I pack up and go to Hi-sec where everything is safe free and easy.
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:16:00 -
[791] - Quote
Andski wrote:also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market
i hope i have enlightened you with this tidbit of knowledge Actually one of the corps I was in made their money from cap sales.
they were built 1 jump into lo-sec and all the minerals were mined in hi-sec, the high ends were just bought from Jita. This way there was very little risk. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:19:00 -
[792] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Yes the populace is poor I have to agree with you there, the alliances aren't but the populace is.
Well, that's a fault in the Alliances, nothing else. However, most seem to have pretty solid ship replacement policies, and many hand out ships as well, so while their members may not have much ISK, they don't lack for capital.
I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.
Nullsec is not poor and nullsec pilots are not poor in what matters (ships and their consumables). If they were they'd be risking and losing less value than pilots in other areas, and they aren't.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:25:00 -
[793] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Yes the populace is poor I have to agree with you there, the alliances aren't but the populace is.
Well, that's a fault in the Alliances, nothing else. However, most seem to have pretty solid ship replacement policies, and many hand out ships as well, so while their members may not have much ISK, they don't lack for capital. I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs. Nullsec is not poor and nullsec pilots are not poor in what matters (ships and their consumables). If they were they'd be risking and losing less value than pilots in other areas, and they aren't. I was referring to the amounts pilots can make in relation to the amounts that can be made in other areas such as hi-sec lvl 4s, not to hand outs given to pilots of the larger alliances.
You are generalizing the entire population of Null into what is done by the larger alliances and even then missing the point that a SRP is not income made by the players. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:26:00 -
[794] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK. So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard! That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1776
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:28:00 -
[795] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK. So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard! That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price. Yes and people in WHs would not need a rorqual to be able to export minerals in quantity. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:31:00 -
[796] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.
Or something just isn't clicking.
Here's what's clicking for me:
Industrialists are pets and have to do what they do crawling on their hands and knees in null sec, because they cannot muster any considerable amount of manpower to assist them.
If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem.
Andski wrote:also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market
Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4276
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 06:31:00 -
[797] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.
If you don't mind I'd like to see your methodology. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 07:00:00 -
[798] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.
Or something just isn't clicking. Here's what's clicking for me: Industrialists are pets and have to do what they do crawling on their hands and knees in null sec, because they cannot muster any considerable amount of manpower to assist them. If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem. Andski wrote:also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise. So what you are saying is that because it is true for a few it must be true for everyone.
You are either a troll or an idiot, you decide. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 07:57:00 -
[799] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote:Bah, being greedy is a point of pride (I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance) Greed is good. So is highsec.
Hilmar alt spotted! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:09:00 -
[800] - Quote
Zhade Lezte wrote:Bah, being greedy is a point of pride (I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance) And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.
Finally a sedate (in the good sense), reasonable, nice GS player who seems to talk his mind and not a broken record player repeating the same passage nor a snotty intellectual!
I'll tell you, I really hope you get all the changes you deserve and fast enough. I too will look at certain incoming games (like Elite) that seem to suggest stuff I like (joystick dogfights, as avid flight sim player I really miss them! And trading with escorts, no blobs). I love EvE markets to the point I reply to random posts like this with full fledged market analyses just for the sake of it, but like you I find CCP let too many basic foundations to age and rot. I.e. market interface looks like a '90 software despite we are meant to be in super-future. A future where apparently (unlike right now in RL) we don't have exchanges able to export data unless hacking into the game cache (and CCP Sreegs does not like it).
Let's see what Fanfest will promise this time... and then what will actually happen. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:36:00 -
[801] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game.
Some things will never get fixed to allow people spreading out of hi sec (sort of removing hi sec completely).
The one factor denying that is that super average Mr. Joe who got 1 hour a day to do a L4 mission or mine 5 roids, is not going to be able to get in a proper corp. He won't have a scout alt, falcon alt and whatever other atrocious garbage this game is played with to "solo casual PvP around". He's going to be blobbed, hot dropped for the giggles, his 100k m3 PI stuff is going to get destroyed. The "unlocked" (= other secs) EvE is enemy of the prototype hi sec player. Why other PvP games managed to attract average Joes (they are many many) despite not having the equivalent of an hi sec?
Because average Joes would: not suffer heavy losses on death or would give such guys a chance to survive when they poke their nose out of their base.
I know there are "soloers" flying Vindicators (full boosted, full drugs, billions implants of course...) but those are hardly average Joes. Sure, those who stay playing EvE are of a better caliber than the average other MMO players.
But, sadly, it's not because a "best breed" naturally comes to EvE, but because everyone not best breed is brutally kicked out.
Now, with a never ending turnover, with many new players coming in etc. etc. this would not be a problem.
But these times? With global crysis yet a AAA game monthly fee to pay, plus all this bias against mediocre players, there's no way EvE will know the popularity it deserves. Basically if one is mediocre or casual they are heavily "suggested" (read: kicked in the kidneys) to stay confined in the golden hi sec prison.
Yes it's golden, but it IS a prison and this is the worst nerf someone could want to impose on another player. Lack of slots is bad, but it's nothing compared to a less than halved player experience paid in full.
There's the argument they could go to TEST or something, but I don't see an expecially welcoming alliance as a reliable game mechanic.
I have done solo L4 in low sec. No ISK fountain sort of being able to replace the ship every 2 missions would make it worth doing - and this only knowing where to find the quiet systems. Else it's an exercise of frustration and you may as well fly coward and ninja anoms, finger ready on a warp / cloak and spamming scanner (the terribly thought on feature that singlehandedly kills 95% of the fun of playing EvE). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:39:00 -
[802] - Quote
Andski wrote: we build supercaps in 0.0 because, well, you can't build them elsewhere - if supercaps could be built in lowsec, that's where they'd be built. if they could be built in highsec, that's where they'd be built.
but if your line of logic is "well supercaps are built in 0.0 so industry is fine there!" i'm not even going to bother pointing out how full of holes it is
And here we go again - "Take away highsec's comparative advantage, but let us keep ours."
Again and again, you guys (not all of you, but most) campaign for things that will turn highsec into the third world.
The funniest thing of all is that in January you were all "We're rolling in it, losing a Trillion because someone mis-clicked and jumped their titan is nothing", and then suddenly you're following the new party line that "Nullsec is a blasted wasteland, with only the hardiest surviving on a tiny income, starving for lack of low-end ores". Now you're lacking industry as well, apparently. I ask you, who has stolen your ISK in the last two months? Who has destroyed all your industry and ore sites? Perhaps you should blame them, rather than embarking on a crusade against highsec because your masters preached one two months ago.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:46:00 -
[803] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem.
The difference is that a titan must be built in a CSAA anchored in an alliance-owned system with a specific ihub upgrade. This means that you're not competing with people who build titans in stations where they only pay a trivial amount of ISK in manufacturing fees. So, once again, you are wrong.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise.
T1 hulls are literally the only thing worth building in 0.0 and even then nobody really bothers because, thanks to CCP effectively allowing ice mining quasi-bots, the fuel cost of moving a JF full of T1 hulls to 0.0 is trivial. T1 hulls are huge pain to deal with too since they're low in cost and high in m3. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Dave Stark
1961
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:46:00 -
[804] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Zhade Lezte wrote:Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!) Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting.
i would link you to the post i made about null sec mining, but it seems quoting facts is deemed as trolling by ccp eterne so i won't do that again, i don't want yet another ban. you're tired, stop posting. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:48:00 -
[805] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote: we build supercaps in 0.0 because, well, you can't build them elsewhere - if supercaps could be built in lowsec, that's where they'd be built. if they could be built in highsec, that's where they'd be built.
but if your line of logic is "well supercaps are built in 0.0 so industry is fine there!" i'm not even going to bother pointing out how full of holes it is
And here we go again - "Take away highsec's comparative advantage, but let us keep ours." Again and again, you guys (not all of you, but most) campaign for things that will turn highsec into the third world. The funniest thing of all is that in January you were all "We're rolling in it, losing a Trillion because someone mis-clicked and jumped their titan is nothing", and then suddenly you're following the new party line that "Nullsec is a blasted wasteland, with only the hardiest surviving on a tiny income, starving for lack of low-end ores". Now you're lacking industry as well, apparently. I ask you, who has stolen your ISK in the last two months? Who has destroyed all your industry and ore sites? Perhaps you should blame them, rather than embarking on a crusade against highsec because your masters preached one two months ago.
You're quite wrong ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:52:00 -
[806] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: If you don't mind I'd like to see your methodology.
It was, as I said, pretty rough and ready. I took the estimated ship value of an alliance's or corp's losses for February 2013 from Eve-kill. I then divided it by the number of pilots in that corp or alliance as given by EvE-Kill or EvE Who (or in some cases Dotlan). I did this for the Goons, for TEST, The Initiative, Pandemic Legion, EvE University, Solar Fleet, several mid-sized alliances that operate in nullsec but have few systems, some WH corps, and Ripard's corp for the heck of it.
I expected that the high-profile PvP corps would go through more ISK in ships than other corps, and that highsec carebears (which because so many are in NPC corps that I didn't check are only really represented by Eve Uni) would go through less. I was quite surprised that the vast majority went through 50-100M ISK per pilot per month. The difference was in what value of other people's ships they blew up with them.
The exceptions were Solar Fleet and one of the null/WH PvP corps (their name escapes me, and I didn't think to note it down - I did this by hand in a late-night fit of inspiration) - they went through around 150-200M ISK of ships per pilot per month. I don't know enough about those alliances to know what they're doing differently - their efficiency wasn't oddly low, so they weren't simply burning blingy ships badly.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:58:00 -
[807] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If you don't mind I'd like to see your methodology.
It was, as I said, pretty rough and ready. I took the estimated ship value of an alliance's or corp's losses for February 2013 from Eve-kill. I then divided it by the number of pilots in that corp or alliance as given by EvE-Kill or EvE Who (or in some cases Dotlan). I did this for the Goons, for TEST, The Initiative, Pandemic Legion, EvE University, Solar Fleet, several mid-sized alliances that operate in nullsec but have few systems, some WH corps, and Ripard's corp for the heck of it. I expected that the high-profile PvP corps would go through more ISK in ships than other corps, and that highsec carebears (which because so many are in NPC corps that I didn't check are only really represented by Eve Uni) would go through less. I was quite surprised that the vast majority went through 50-100M ISK per pilot per month. The difference was in what value of other people's ships they blew up with them.
Even if your methodology was valid (it's not, since not every character in a given alliance is used for PvP) it's completely trivial for a player to make 50-100M in a month. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:11:00 -
[808] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK. So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard! That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price.
Well the "fuels" point was mostly about the fact I play quite hard in the minerals and ices markets. 100B at a time hard. Imagine if only prices doubled or tripled again (*shows $$$$$ eyes a la Scrooge*). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4278
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:13:00 -
[809] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:The funniest thing of all is that in January you were all "We're rolling in it, losing a Trillion because someone mis-clicked and jumped their titan is nothing", and then suddenly you're following the new party line that "Nullsec is a blasted wasteland, with only the hardiest surviving on a tiny income, starving for lack of low-end ores". Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3928
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:17:00 -
[810] - Quote
Andski wrote: T1 hulls are literally the only thing worth building in 0.0 and even then nobody really bothers because, thanks to CCP effectively allowing ice mining quasi-bots, the fuel cost of moving a JF full of T1 hulls to 0.0 is trivial. T1 hulls are huge pain to deal with too since they're low in cost and high in m3.
During the Hulkageddons I - IV prices only doubled, the cost of moving a JF would be double of trivial and anyway an o(risk involved). But the cheapness of transport is another Pandora can of worms better left alone for now. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:30:00 -
[811] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:The funniest thing of all is that in January you were all "We're rolling in it, losing a Trillion because someone mis-clicked and jumped their titan is nothing", and then suddenly you're following the new party line that "Nullsec is a blasted wasteland, with only the hardiest surviving on a tiny income, starving for lack of low-end ores". Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income. Its ok I am sure he has trillions so can afford to look foolish
As by his logic, some people in Hi-sec have trillions so therefore everyone has trillions We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:33:00 -
[812] - Quote
Andski wrote: Even if your methodology was valid (it's not, since not every character in a given alliance is used for PvP) it's completely trivial for a player to make 50-100M in a month.
Of course they don't. However, it shows that nullsec pilots' ship-based expenses aren't noticeably different from those of anywhere else, and that they and their corps and alliances can afford them and their sov fees, infrastructure projects, and supercap programs without having to curtail their flying. Hence they are not poor by any meaningful use of the word.
I expected that I'd see a rather higher consumption of ISK on ships in the nullsec alliances - that they were paying for their security by losing more ships. In fact they don't seem to.
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baltec1
Bat Country
5570
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:36:00 -
[813] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:The funniest thing of all is that in January you were all "We're rolling in it, losing a Trillion because someone mis-clicked and jumped their titan is nothing", and then suddenly you're following the new party line that "Nullsec is a blasted wasteland, with only the hardiest surviving on a tiny income, starving for lack of low-end ores". Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income. Its ok I am sure he has trillions so can afford to look foolish As by his logic, some people in Hi-sec have trillions so therefore everyone has trillions
Confiming my megathrons are all gold plated |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:37:00 -
[814] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income.
If an has tons of money, and it's pilots don't (or vice versa), that's a matter for the management and the pilots to take up and resolve between them.
Alternatively, in a cold, hard, and uncaring universe, perhaps it is the fate of the majority to be exploited by corps and alliances who employ them, whilst the owners and management of those corps and their favourites live it up.
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Dave Stark
1961
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:45:00 -
[815] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income.
If an has tons of money, and it's pilots don't (or vice versa), that's a matter for the management and the pilots to take up and resolve between them. Alternatively, in a cold, hard, and uncaring universe, perhaps it is the fate of the majority to be exploited by corps and alliances who employ them, whilst the owners and management of those corps and their favourites live it up.
inb4 inevitable RMT accusation. you're tired, stop posting. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 09:58:00 -
[816] - Quote
Not from me.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:02:00 -
[817] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:If an alliance has tons of money, and it's pilots don't (or vice versa), that's a matter for the management and the pilots to take up and resolve between them.
Alternatively, in a cold, hard, and uncaring universe, perhaps it is the fate of the majority to be exploited by corps and alliances who employ them, whilst the owners and management of those corps and their favourites live it up.
Tell us more about your ideas on how alliances should manage their income ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:14:00 -
[818] - Quote
If the alliances is rich and the pilots poor, payout some of the funds. If the reverse, raise taxes, charge membership fees, or something like that. It's not rocket science.
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1055
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:29:00 -
[819] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:If the alliances is rich and the pilots poor, payout some of the funds. If the reverse, raise taxes, charge membership fees, or something like that. It's not rocket science.
What do you do in case of "alliance poor, players poor" or perhaps "alliance rich, players fine but anyone who isn't turning gray bars red has alts in highsec making their money because industry in null borders on impossible without personal JF's and tons of capital for POSes and even then you're still better off in highsec"? The latter one is also known as "the entire reason this discussion is happening". "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:36:00 -
[820] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:If the alliances is rich and the pilots poor, payout some of the funds. If the reverse, raise taxes, charge membership fees, or something like that. It's not rocket science.
Clearly, we should drop reimbursements altogether and simply distribute our monthly surplus to our membership, leaving them with all of ~30m/member even after accounting for alts. That's a great scheme that incentivizes activity and it definitely promotes the ability of the alliance to remain solvent! Because, in NPC alt logic, a "surplus" is just ISK that goes to the directorate and not a fund that could potentially pay for a massive loss, since it's not like those things happen. You, sir, are a genius! ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7016
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:44:00 -
[821] - Quote
Our scheme for distributing income is like this:
If you go around looking for idiots to kill, we'll reimburse any ship you lose up to and including a decent fit Machariel. If you're poor because you don't spend much time in the game making ISK, we'll help you cover the costs of a carrier. If you're just in GSF to run around Deklein turning red crosses into triangles, be glad we provide jump bridges and upgraded systems that enable that kind of thing in exchange for a meager tax rate.
I'd say our scheme there is decently equitable while allowing the alliance to have a sizable surplus to cover potential supercapital welps without bankrupting us. But tell us more about how we should stay bankrupt just to pay out the equivalent of a single anomaly to every member. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Dave Stark
1962
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:47:00 -
[822] - Quote
Andski wrote:Our scheme for distributing income is like this:
If you go around looking for idiots to kill, we'll reimburse any ship you lose up to and including a decent fit Machariel. If you're poor because you don't spend much time in the game making ISK, we'll help you cover the costs of a carrier. If you're just in GSF to run around Deklein turning red crosses into triangles, be glad we provide jump bridges and upgraded systems that enable that kind of thing in exchange for a meager tax rate.
I'd say our scheme there is decently equitable while allowing the alliance to have a sizable surplus to cover potential supercapital welps without bankrupting us. But tell us more about how we should stay bankrupt just to pay out the equivalent of a single anomaly to every member.
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( you're tired, stop posting. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7017
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:49:00 -
[823] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(
Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Dave Stark
1962
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:57:00 -
[824] - Quote
Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!
such a shame 0.0 grav sites all still yield less isk/m3 than regular scordite :( you're tired, stop posting. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 12:59:00 -
[825] - Quote
So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
888
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 13:25:00 -
[826] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Is that the bit where the discussion moves to how the reason nullsec industry isn't working because You Stupid Nullseccers Just Aren't Playing Nullsec Clever Enough?
Or is it when the discussion moves to how You Can't Force Me To Change My Playstyle You Just Want Ganks
Actually, now that I consider it, the conversation might move to Nullsec Is Supposed To Be A Third World Country And The Game Is Designed For You To Have A Horrible Experience, or even I Thought You Wanted A Challenge Eve Is Cold And Harsh (except for the part i live in)
I hope it doesn't progess to Think Of The Casual Players Who All Live In Highsec Because I Say So for a couple of days |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
887
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 13:38:00 -
[827] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone?
Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem ....
uhuh
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
135
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 13:44:00 -
[828] - Quote
Its never to late to move back to highsec |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 13:45:00 -
[829] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem .... uhuh You might want to check that, I seem to remember them going back at least a few years but in f&I not God. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
887
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:21:00 -
[830] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem .... uhuh You might want to check that, I seem to remember them going back at least a few years but in f&I not Gd
I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:37:00 -
[831] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Is that the bit where the discussion moves to how the reason nullsec industry isn't working because You Stupid Nullseccers Just Aren't Playing Nullsec Clever Enough? Or is it when the discussion moves to how You Can't Force Me To Change My Playstyle You Just Want Ganks Actually, now that I consider it, the conversation might move to Nullsec Is Supposed To Be A Third World Country And The Game Is Designed For You To Have A Horrible Experience, or even I Thought You Wanted A Challenge Eve Is Cold And Harsh (except for the part i live in) I hope it doesn't progess to Think Of The Casual Players Who All Live In Highsec Because I Say So for a couple of days Why not.
Let's have the Highsec is Like Heaven because CONCORD is like God discussion.
Or maybe a CONCORD are Literally Gods of Highsec discussion. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1199
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:40:00 -
[832] - Quote
flakeys wrote:
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
Broken Trusec, R64 income, perma ran DED sites. However I don't see your point, industry in null back then was terrible as it is now. Almost everything was imported in using freighters and bridging or doing the carrier exploit.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:43:00 -
[833] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:flakeys wrote:
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
Broken Trusec, R64 income, perma ran DED sites. However I don't see your point, industry in null back then was terrible as it is now. Almost everything was imported in using freighters and bridging or doing the carrier exploit. My my, it's like they all needed a nerf.
Nerf tech by the way, that way nullsec can be a ~true~ harsh and cold wasteland full of ~worthless things~ for ~worthless people~ to fight over. Then maybe they'll learn to appreciate highsec. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:44:00 -
[834] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem .... uhuh You might want to check that, I seem to remember them going back at least a few years but in f&I not Gd I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot . So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances. How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then . Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
Well let's see, from my perspective I couldn't give a stuff about null wars, so I am talking about player owned being better than NPC.
Enlighten me wasn't bib the alliance getting illegal help from devas, being the reason we have a csm now?
But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.
I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:46:00 -
[835] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:flakeys wrote:
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
Broken Trusec, R64 income, perma ran DED sites. However I don't see your point, industry in null back then was terrible as it is now. Almost everything was imported in using freighters and bridging or doing the carrier exploit. My my, it's like they all needed a nerf. Nerf tech by the way, that way nullsec can be a ~true~ harsh and cold wasteland full of ~worthless things~ for ~worthless people~ to fight over. Then maybe they'll learn to appreciate highsec. Actually this discussion reminds me of trying to tell school kids what the real world is like, but having them failing to understand it as to them school is the real world. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 14:49:00 -
[836] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:flakeys wrote:
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
Broken Trusec, R64 income, perma ran DED sites. However I don't see your point, industry in null back then was terrible as it is now. Almost everything was imported in using freighters and bridging or doing the carrier exploit. My my, it's like they all needed a nerf. Nerf tech by the way, that way nullsec can be a ~true~ harsh and cold wasteland full of ~worthless things~ for ~worthless people~ to fight over. Then maybe they'll learn to appreciate highsec. Actually this discussion reminds me of trying to tell school kids what the real world is like, but having them failing to understand it as to them school is the ral world. Ah I found the right link.
EAT IT NULLSEC I am a nullsec zealot. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
598
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:15:00 -
[837] - Quote
If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.
CHECKMATE, GOONS! Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3539
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:22:00 -
[838] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.
CHECKMATE, GOONS! YEAH, get back on CONCORD's hawt azz titazz
EDIT: Where do you think all the stuff being JFed from Jita to VFK comes from? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:25:00 -
[839] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.
I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
i-+ro-+ny [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] noun, plural i-+ro-+nies. 1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3539
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:41:00 -
[840] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.
I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
i-+ro-+ny [ahy-ruh-nee] noun, plural i-+ro-+nies.1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature. And to think, while I still had Jade Constantine's internet spacewhore site linked, people thought I was serious.
Now you can really tell how much I love highsec and CONCORD by looking at my new, updated, signature. It feels like the point retention has risen by over 50% with just this change alone. I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1199
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:47:00 -
[841] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.
I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
i-+ro-+ny [ahy-ruh-nee] noun, plural i-+ro-+nies.1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature.
Malcanis is part of Initiative, which for the most of their history has been smallish when compared to others in 0.0. So not sure how that's ironic.
What is ironic is your pick for CSM, which claims to be an awoxer/corp thief, yet wants CCP to make corporations a safer place. So either hes a hypocrite or he does it to prove how broken the system is.
Still you show you are clueless when it comes to anything regarding 0.0. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
890
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 15:49:00 -
[842] - Quote
Uhm. Malcanis isn't a bloc candidate. Also Psychotic Monk has expressed general approval for a null industry buff.
e: i hate getting pagetoppers :( |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:03:00 -
[843] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.
I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
i-+ro-+ny [ahy-ruh-nee] noun, plural i-+ro-+nies.1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature. Yes because I chose to support Malcanis as I believe his ideas are best for the game as a whole. It is one of the things I don't like in a lot of the candidates, they are "vote for me and I will fix hi sec" or "I will fix Wormhole space"
This game needs people on the CSM who are concerned about all of the game not just the interests of the few.
Oh and Malcanis is not a block candidate, but just so you know Myanna is the go on swarm block candidate but having said that Myanna is actually the best goon candidate I have seen so far. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:06:00 -
[844] - Quote
Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1199
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:12:00 -
[845] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.
Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100% after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3540
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:23:00 -
[846] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries. Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk. See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:25:00 -
[847] - Quote
I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.
As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:27:00 -
[848] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries. POSs have a max 75% refine no skills are counted.
And outposts are only for Sov holding corps in Sov Null. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1199
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:27:00 -
[849] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries. Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk. See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?
The 5 office slots and max of 9 manufacturing slots on a refining outpost should be enough for you all.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:32:00 -
[850] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.
As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec. I think after the irony comment we can class you amongst those suffering from elitism. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
890
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:35:00 -
[851] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.
As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec. yeah giving people destructible industry services that were actually worth using probably wouldn't help generate any content. you're right. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1778
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:35:00 -
[852] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries. Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk. See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~? May be that is the answer, instead of arguing that Null industry should improve, we should be arguing that Hi-sec Industry should be as good as Null.
What are they going to complain about then.....oh thats right the fact there is almost no industry and they can even have a couple of tech moons too to make them feel special. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3930
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:36:00 -
[853] - Quote
flakeys wrote: I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
In the past, before NC and stuff, there were PvP corps in null sec. I was in an awesome pure PvP corp where I spent my best time of all EvE till one day my RL obligations forced me to stop everything that demanded commitment. That corp close to my last days joined BoB. A fun thing, since half of my characters were in a GS blued alliance instead.
The number of known titans was reported on a specific thread (they were below 150), we'd fight with battleships and carriers, some dreads. The bigger guns were rare.
POSes were the sov thing to grind.
It was quicker to become a null sec "reality", it was just a *better game*. Dominion is the worst expansion that EvE could ever get. Regardless whether it's because it was delivered unfinished (how many expansions did anyway?) or just craptastic, Dominion tainted ripple effects have harmed EvE more than every other bad made expansion put together.
Back to my talk: EvE was a better game because ANY corp could easily stage in hi sec, then low sec / FW then go NPC null sec or directly go take sov. It was just smoother and easier, the entry barrier well lower, everyone could grind 10 or so carriers and then dare to be bold and go carve a morsel of sovereignty.
The other opponents did not have 2k warm bodies summoned at a whistle, min maxed "doctrines" were less extreme.
End result: the cake was the same but the participants had an easier time eating it.
R64? My balls. We conquered 3 moons before I quit. We started from zero moons, weekly corp ops to farm ISK / minerals. 4-8 hours a week ops plus some particularly generous corp players = fully T2 fitted ship replacement program for everybody and fitted capital ships replacement program.
Sadly industry had no place in there, nor heavy logistics were easy. I recall my weekly multi-boxed freighter run through Hek=>Taff (7 jumps in low sec) with 30-50 escort ships (now people cry for lack of content, they just play with bicycle wheels) and later the carrier jumps (JFs were rare, really). So as industrialist guy I had to do most logistics in hi or low sec, large reprocessable modules acquisition and delivery and so on. And mining ops in low or null sec. where roids are moons. I did some small PvP and everyone were so happy with the whole thing.
There was no crying on the forums, only alliances happily blasting each other and making to the international media news all the time when the fights were glorious.
I recall EvE news having up to 3 null sec large fights reported at a time, at the time they were "XYZ attacked JNNN with *two* supercarriers and 1 titan" => to the 3rd party website news.
Then the old players guard started quitting, I bet Dominion played an huge part on that as I distinctly recall most of my corp mates including me detesting blob (> 50 (fifty!) ) ships fights with a passion. Old alliances slowly faded, being replaced by another kind of players, more adapted to the "new and improved" mechanics. The golden days, for what regards my personal feelings, were officially over.
The coup-de-grace came with the hideous "GREED IS GOOD" campaign. Tons of remaining old guard quit. I quit with them. Many because of the CCP attitude, many because of the "golden ammo" attempts, many because of realizing how decayed CCP had become to release a piece of scandal: "The Closed Door".
I joined the original most large protest threadnought posters at the first pages and in block we delivered the heaviest protest - including Jita monument - ever had in a MMO. I was expecially annoyed by CCP wanting me to shell $99 for the honor of advertising them on my website and writing free software for them. I, spending $350 a year just in hosting fees, would have also to pay them for the honor of working for them? FK OFF. Yes I am still annoyed even now that they reversed that foolishness.
Thus you Flakeys might recall me ranting on MD a lot back at the time and then leaving.
The new null sec protagonists joined a new mechanic almost requiring huge blobbing for getting anything done. Plus they were different people.
Not pure PvPers any more, going there for the very sake of claiming a "tabard" and the glory of a space castle and uncaring about what was needed to achieve that. Having to perma farm hi sec L4 missions and producing only in hi sec was a secondary thing. The new players wanted to really live in there. Being many, they had a number of "civilians", that is people less than interested in pure PvP and similar and more interested in "cultivating the farms". The pre-Dominion industry facilities suddenly fell short: before Dominion the only null sec industry done was to build fewer ships for smaller entities and it was a soft cap to supercaps spamming. All of this broke and...
we are at today.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 16:36:00 -
[854] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Andski wrote:Dave Stark wrote:but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :( Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope! Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries. Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk. And you get to choose which systems are upgraded to always have grav belts handy.
I wonder which ones are most likely to be fully upgraded that way? http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3541
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:00:00 -
[855] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote: Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.
See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~? May be that is the answer, instead of arguing that Null industry should improve, we should be arguing that Hi-sec Industry should be as good as Null. What are they going to complain about then.....oh thats right the fact there is almost no industry and they can even have a couple of tech moons too to make them feel special. Yeah, highsec as good as null, now with added CONCORD and NPC Corp combo. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3933
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:03:00 -
[856] - Quote
Heh I noticed my "totally out of my heart" almost rant above has been liked.
The 6k characters cut it else I would have rained all my RAAAAGEEEEE at Dominion, a scientifically drugged sov system born under the GREED IS GOOD umbrella to force as many subs at sov end game as possible and to artificially push PLEX purchases in order to let a company in bad waters out of their situation. PLEX = the good will instrument. The "pay now we'll deliver service later and if we fold, the money is ours to keep".
They were in bad waters because they created a beautiful product but then rested on their laurels delivering unfinished, all encompassing "full Holy Geesus" expansion after expansion (CCP really invented a similar term to define those expansions) till the game started literally crumbling down.
So, imo, the FIRST thing to do is to destroy that utter failure of expansion and create another, that provides a smooth entry point for smaller entities bold enough to dare the "big jump" into sov warfare.
The industry revamp? Due and needed but framed inside this new sov expansion.
This is why I wanted a staged delivery: first an upgrade to multiple stations per systems (say capped at 8) because that establishes the theoretical slots available. Then an upgrade to make those 8 stations deliver *as many* slots as hi sec. Then make hi sec slots cost as much as POS slots except in starter systems and only to < 1 month accounts that also still have production efficiency trained to below V.
Then the POSes improvements centered expansion.
Then the buffs or nerfs across the various secs, because that's a balancing act, and one can't balance until the levers have been pulled. I see the buffs and nerfs as the cherry on the cake, we first need the cake, the whipped cream and so on.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1202
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:11:00 -
[857] - Quote
Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
408
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:27:00 -
[858] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:flakeys wrote: I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .
So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.
How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .
Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.
In the past, before NC and stuff, there were PvP corps in null sec. I was in an awesome pure PvP corp where I spent my best time of all EvE till one day my RL obligations forced me to stop everything that demanded commitment. That corp close to my last days joined BoB. A fun thing, since half of my characters were in a GS blued alliance instead. The number of known titans was reported on a specific thread (they were below 150), we'd fight with battleships and carriers, some dreads. The bigger guns were rare. POSes were the sov thing to grind. It was quicker to become a null sec "reality", it was just a *better game*. Dominion is the worst expansion that EvE could ever get. Regardless whether it's because it was delivered unfinished (how many expansions did anyway?) or just craptastic, Dominion tainted ripple effects have harmed EvE more than every other bad made expansion put together. The other opponents did not have 2k warm bodies summoned at a whistle, min maxed "doctrines" were less extreme. End result: the cake was the same but the participants had an easier time eating it. R64? My balls. We conquered 3 moons before I quit. We started from zero moons, weekly corp ops to farm ISK / minerals. 4-8 hours a week ops plus some particularly generous corp players = fully T2 fitted ship replacement program for everybody and fitted capital ships replacement program. Sadly industry had no place in there, nor heavy logistics were easy. I recall my weekly multi-boxed freighter run through Hek=>Taff (7 jumps in low sec) with 30-50 escort ships (now people cry for lack of content, they just play with bicycle wheels) and later the carrier jumps (JFs were rare, really). So as industrialist guy I had to do most logistics in hi or low sec, large reprocessable modules acquisition and delivery and so on. And mining ops in low or null sec. where roids are moons. I did some small PvP and everyone were so happy with the whole thing. There was no crying on the forums, only alliances happily blasting each other and making to the international media news all the time when the fights were glorious. I recall EvE news having up to 3 null sec large fights reported at a time, at the time they were "XYZ attacked JNNN with *two* supercarriers and 1 titan" => to the 3rd party website news. Then the old players guard started quitting, I bet Dominion played an huge part on that as I distinctly recall most of my corp mates including me detesting blob (> 50 (fifty!) ) ships fights with a passion. Old alliances slowly faded, being replaced by another kind of players, more adapted to the "new and improved" mechanics. The golden days, for what regards my personal feelings, were officially over. The coup-de-grace came with the hideous "GREED IS GOOD" campaign. Tons of remaining old guard quit. I quit with them. Many because of the CCP attitude, many because of the "golden ammo" attempts, many because of realizing how decayed CCP had become to release a piece of scandal: "The Closed Door". The new null sec protagonists joined a new mechanic almost requiring huge blobbing for getting anything done. Plus they were different people. Not pure PvPers any more, going there for the very sake of claiming a "tabard" and the glory of a space castle and uncaring about what was needed to achieve that. Having to perma farm hi sec L4 missions and producing only in hi sec was a secondary thing. The new players wanted to really live in there. Being many, they had a number of "civilians", that is people less than interested in pure PvP and similar and more interested in "cultivating the farms". The pre-Dominion industry facilities fell short: before Dominion the only null sec industry done was to build fewer ships for smaller entities and it was a soft cap to supercaps spamming. All of this broke and... we are at today.
You seem to forgot the part where the newer style players are outblobbing and ignoring goodfight fights to the old scool people with their endless no effort iskprinting teck moons that attract an even bigger blob and thus ruining old scool ppls game and make them ragging at the dominion mechanics. This effect caused the blue donut we have today. Its a shame one of the last true alliances that operated on the old way, AAA, has come on this way to his end.
Now there all these small oldscool entities scatterd all over eve farming the newer ones :p. Seems to me you could have them better at one place than all over CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS
[url]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9679/whatihavedoneineve.jpg[/url] |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3541
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:30:00 -
[859] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:You seem to forgot the part where the newer style players are outblobbing and ignoring goodfight fights to the old scool people with their endless no effort iskprinting teck moons that attract an even bigger blob and thus ruining old scool ppls game and make them ragging at the dominion mechanics. This effect caused the blue donut we have today. Its a shame one of the last true alliances that operated on the old way, AAA, has come on this way to his end. Now there all these small oldscool entities scatterd all over eve farming the newer ones :p. Seems to me you could have them better at one place than all over Let's ask some TEST ratters how those techmoons and blue donut are working out for them. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
598
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:39:00 -
[860] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.
CHECKMATE, GOONS! YEAH, get back on CONCORD's hawt azz titazz EDIT: Where do you think all the stuff being JFed from Jita to VFK comes from?
I hope you aren't directing this at me.
Arguing with these nerf null guys is like trying to argue on TPC. Post all the facts and evidence you want, it's all biased towards nullsec. (Because reality has a well known nullsec bias.) Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
598
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:43:00 -
[861] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote::words: about the past
Back in my day we had to pvp uphill in the snow both ways! And we liked it! Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3541
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 17:43:00 -
[862] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.
CHECKMATE, GOONS! YEAH, get back on CONCORD's hawt azz titazz EDIT: Where do you think all the stuff being JFed from Jita to VFK comes from? I hope you aren't directing this at me. Arguing with these nerf null guys is like trying to argue on TPC. Post all the facts and evidence you want, it's all biased towards nullsec. (Because reality has a well known nullsec bias.) Where do you think the stuff JFed from Jita is manufactured? I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 18:04:00 -
[863] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.
As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec. yeah giving people destructible industry services that were actually worth using probably wouldn't help generate any content. you're right.
I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options.
Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about.
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3541
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 18:07:00 -
[864] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.
As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec. yeah giving people destructible industry services that were actually worth using probably wouldn't help generate any content. you're right. I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options. Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about. Yeah, screw nullsec, just go back to highsec (where you already are anyway). Your kind has to be FORCED to rely on CONCORD and the NPC corps.
Go get your handouts in highsec from the NPCs like everyone else. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 18:10:00 -
[865] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Yeah, screw nullsec, just go back to highsec (where you already are anyway). Your kind has to be FORCED to rely on CONCORD and the NPC corps.
Thanks for the pro tip. I'll inform my CEO that we've been doing this faction war thing wrong. All this time, we've been in low sec, but apparently we should be in high sec under the protection of CONCORD and NPC corps.
Since you're an expert, where can I find faction war plexes in high sec? Hold on, I wanna get a pen and paper so I can write this down. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3541
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 18:15:00 -
[866] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Yeah, screw nullsec, just go back to highsec (where you already are anyway). Your kind has to be FORCED to rely on CONCORD and the NPC corps. Thanks for the pro tip. I'll inform my CEO that we've been doing this faction war thing wrong. All this time, we've been in low sec, but apparently we should be in high sec under the protection of CONCORD and NPC corps. Since you're an expert, where can I find faction war plexes in high sec? Hold on, I wanna get a pen and paper so I can write this down. You don't do industry in the plexes, I hope. Because if so, you're really doing it wrong. I am a nullsec zealot. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
889
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 19:25:00 -
[867] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:flakeys wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So has this discussion gotten past the point where all the people from hi-sec seem to believe that everyone in Null is a member of Goonswarm and that every member has a tech moons worth of profit available to them alone? Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem .... uhuh You might want to check that, I seem to remember them going back at least a few years but in f&I not Gd I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot . So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances. How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then . Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now. Well let's see, from my perspective I couldn't give a stuff about null wars, so I am talking about player owned being better than NPC. Enlighten me wasn't bib the alliance getting illegal help from devas, being the reason we have a csm now? But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have. I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.
What i am trying to point out is that ... it allways has been this way.Yet now the complaints are drasticly increasing in a time where income in null is higher then before.OW yes and i am talking about other alliances then goons , the small boohoo we haz no techmoons.I had a half year in syndicate recently as i like to enjoy high/low and null at times .. i can tell you i made a SHITLOAD more then in the ''yearly years'' doing plexing and that's with allmost exclusively neuts passing every few minutes .More then enough to cover any ''jumpfreightercost'' to get my **** up.And i was so happy to get my jumpfreighter jumping in , it made me think of the times i was in ASCN and had to fly my freighter 20 jumps through low-sec with no or hardly any escort.
In short there has been stufff added specifically for this , jumpfreighters and jumpbridges.So yes sure let's get industry in null up ... and immediatly get rid of jumpbridges and jumpfreighters.Ow no yes that's right , we want it all in our own pocket.Some of you guys should really try living solo in npc null again it might open your eyes to the luxury and ease you have there.
You lot remind me of a rich person complaining about the airco beyond a tad too loud when they are eating in their fancy restaurant while homeless jack outside is having the night of the week because he got a 1 dollar given to him from someone passing by.
You forgot how the game was or have never experienced it, your nothing different from a miner complaining that if he fits a tank his mined ore will go down per hour wich makes me want to shove a bantam under his ass and say ''hey dude this is how we did it and if you are lucky one day you can mine in the apoc ... ''.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
598
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 19:48:00 -
[868] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.
CHECKMATE, GOONS! YEAH, get back on CONCORD's hawt azz titazz EDIT: Where do you think all the stuff being JFed from Jita to VFK comes from? I hope you aren't directing this at me. Arguing with these nerf null guys is like trying to argue on TPC. Post all the facts and evidence you want, it's all biased towards nullsec. (Because reality has a well known nullsec bias.) Where do you think the stuff JFed from Jita is manufactured?
In my butte. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
baltec1
Bat Country
5575
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 19:52:00 -
[869] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3544
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 20:13:00 -
[870] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is. So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then. No, just making the POSes (which are more expensive and a TON harder to use than highsec slots) into new updated POS which will be more expensive and a great deal harder to use than highsec slots.
See the difference, it's such a great treat for a "small portion of the playerbase". I am a nullsec zealot. |
|
Tesal
234
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 20:43:00 -
[871] - Quote
The nullsec agenda is groupthink in action. |
Primary Me
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 20:51:00 -
[872] - Quote
flakeys wrote:What i am trying to point out is that ... it allways has been this way.Yet now the complaints are drasticly increasing in a time where income in null is higher then before.OW yes and i am talking about other alliances then goons , the small boohoo we haz no techmoons.I had a half year in syndicate recently as i like to enjoy high/low and null at times .. i can tell you i made a SHITLOAD more then in the ''yearly years'' doing plexing and that's with allmost exclusively neuts passing every few minutes .More then enough to cover any ''jumpfreightercost'' to get my **** up.And i was so happy to get my jumpfreighter jumping in , it made me think of the times i was in ASCN and had to fly my freighter 20 jumps through low-sec with no or hardly any escort.
In short there has been stufff added specifically for this , jumpfreighters and jumpbridges.So yes sure let's get industry in null up ... and immediatly get rid of jumpbridges and jumpfreighters.Ow no yes that's right , we want it all in our own pocket.Some of you guys should really try living solo in npc null again it might open your eyes to the luxury and ease you have there.
You lot remind me of a rich person complaining about the airco beyond a tad too loud when they are eating in their fancy restaurant while homeless jack outside is having the night of the week because he got a 1 dollar given to him from someone passing by.
You forgot how the game was or have never experienced it, your nothing different from a miner complaining that if he fits a tank his mined ore will go down per hour wich makes me want to shove a bantam under his ass and say ''hey dude this is how we did it and if you are lucky one day you can mine in the apoc ... ''.
It's not actually about the isk. Those asking for an industry rebalance are only asking to be able to earn the same amount of isk in null that their alts are currently earning in hi-sec; unfortunately it appears that to do this the isk earning potential of hi-sec will need to be lowered but that is a side issue to this.
What is hoped for is that an industry rebalance, together with sov and pos mechanic change will enable more conflict drivers to exist in null; larger populations doing more non-combat related activities will need more escorting/guarding which in turn will provide more targets, which will start the PvP food chain allowing PvP at all levels rather than just the huge fleet actions and sov grind that we currently have.
Imagine the effect of having various pieces of industry infrastructure that can be put out of action by a small roaming gang for a number of hours; losing a few hours of production occasionally is no big deal, but if it happens constantly the industrialists will demand action from the alliance PvPers, who will in turn have to start interdicting these roaming gangs, all of which is providing much needed content to null.
Null should be the place to make great riches, but at great risk. It should be where those that dare go to make, and possibly lose, their fortunes, with an emphasis on 'possibly lose'.
James 315 for CSM 8. A voice for hi-sec, a voice for reason. |
Tesal
234
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 20:59:00 -
[873] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:
It's not actually about the isk. Those asking for an industry rebalance are only asking to be able to earn the same amount of isk in null that their alts are currently earning in hi-sec; unfortunately it appears that to do this the isk earning potential of hi-sec will need to be lowered but that is a side issue to this.
What is hoped for is that an industry rebalance, together with sov and pos mechanic change will enable more conflict drivers to exist in null; larger populations doing more non-combat related activities will need more escorting/guarding which in turn will provide more targets, which will start the PvP food chain allowing PvP at all levels rather than just the huge fleet actions and sov grind that we currently have.
Imagine the effect of having various pieces of industry infrastructure that can be put out of action by a small roaming gang for a number of hours; losing a few hours of production occasionally is no big deal, but if it happens constantly the industrialists will demand action from the alliance PvPers, who will in turn have to start interdicting these roaming gangs, all of which is providing much needed content to null.
Null should be the place to make great riches, but at great risk. It should be where those that dare go to make, and possibly lose, their fortunes, with an emphasis on 'possibly lose'.
You are living in a fantasy world. The changes that are usually prescribed by the nullsec agenda people won't deliver what you are talking about.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 21:01:00 -
[874] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then.
Actually I'm but on a tiered scale.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1786
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 21:32:00 -
[875] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then. Actually I'm but on a tiered scale. Please define
"tiered scale" We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 21:44:00 -
[876] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then. Actually I'm but on a tiered scale. Please define "tiered scale"
Pretty much as its stated. Installation Cost and price per hour goes up based off of tier level and depending on the item type(mods cost less to build then ships).
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1786
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 21:54:00 -
[877] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.
So I take it you are in favor of massively increased costs for using the high sec slots then. Actually I'm but on a tiered scale. Please define "tiered scale" Pretty much as its stated. Installation Cost and price per hour goes up based off of tier level and depending on the item type(mods cost less to build then ships). So the cost per hour would be less for example to build a shuttle, than to build a battleship for instance? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 21:59:00 -
[878] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:
So the cost per hour would be less for example to build a shuttle, than to build a battleship for instance?
If you want to break it down that far sure. Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1786
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 22:09:00 -
[879] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
So the cost per hour would be less for example to build a shuttle, than to build a battleship for instance?
If you want to break it down that far sure. I like to be clear and I do like to hear new ideas. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5576
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 22:10:00 -
[880] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
So the cost per hour would be less for example to build a shuttle, than to build a battleship for instance?
If you want to break it down that far sure.
So we would have the same issues as we do now with most things. |
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 22:34:00 -
[881] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
So the cost per hour would be less for example to build a shuttle, than to build a battleship for instance?
If you want to break it down that far sure. So we would have the same issues as we do now with most things.
That would depend on how much the values are set. You can't expect it to work on all items without killing off new players ability to produce.
Though I would like to hear what you would want, since any idea you seem to shoot down as not good enough.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5577
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 00:19:00 -
[882] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Though I would like to hear what you would want, since any idea you seem to shoot down as not good enough.
Simply more slots in null. The station owner can set the charge to run them, much like the repair services. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1788
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 00:23:00 -
[883] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Though I would like to hear what you would want, since any idea you seem to shoot down as not good enough.
Simply more slots in null. The station owner can set the charge to run them, much like the repair services. I myself would prefer the charge to act as an isk sink and subsequently preventing outpost owners with no running costs from charging little for the slots and being able to massively undercut POS owners and NPC station users.
With that ability the whole system would just collapse and we would have exactly what we have now but favouring outpost owners instead of NPC facility users. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5577
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 00:26:00 -
[884] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:
With that ability the whole system would just collapse and we would have exactly what we have now but favouring outpost owners instead of NPC facility users.
We are literally talking about saving a few thousand per run if the outpost owners chose to charge nothing. You seriously think that will lead to a collape of NPC station use? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1792
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 01:21:00 -
[885] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
With that ability the whole system would just collapse and we would have exactly what we have now but favouring outpost owners instead of NPC facility users.
We are literally talking about saving a few thousand per run if the outpost owners chose to charge nothing. You seriously think that will lead to a collape of NPC station use? In comparison to the expense of POS facilities? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
893
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:25:00 -
[886] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options.
Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about.
yes i agree completely. also faction war should never have been "fixed" by ccp. all the people in it were just whining for fixes and what they didn't have. there are no problems whatsoever with eve online and anyone who points one out is just trying for a handout.
hahaha this whole time those stupid nullseccers could have been 'setting up trade agreements with neighbors', 'expanding their territory' and 'creating trade hubs' which would have solved all their problems in some nebulous fashion because of the emergent gameplay |
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:35:00 -
[887] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options.
Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about.
yes i agree completely. also faction war should never have been "fixed" by ccp. all the people in it were just whining for fixes and what they didn't have. there are no problems whatsoever with eve online and anyone who points one out is just trying for a handout. hahaha this whole time those stupid nullseccers could have been 'setting up trade agreements with neighbors', 'expanding their territory' and 'creating trade hubs' which would have solved all their problems in some nebulous fashion because of the emergent gameplay
Hi-sec industry isn't factional warfare, its been around for 10 years. It was designed to have a low barrier to entry easy accessibility so that anyone could do it, much like PI has a low barrier to entry. It's "working as intendedGäó".
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
893
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:39:00 -
[888] - Quote
Factional warfare is also a low barrier to entry. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
893
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:40:00 -
[889] - Quote
actually i can't tell what's going on with your post i'll just assume it's rubbish |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:43:00 -
[890] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
With that ability the whole system would just collapse and we would have exactly what we have now but favouring outpost owners instead of NPC facility users.
We are literally talking about saving a few thousand per run if the outpost owners chose to charge nothing. You seriously think that will lead to a collape of NPC station use? In comparison to the expense of POS facilities?
POS expenses aren't that high, really. Not when you break it down. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3546
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 03:45:00 -
[891] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options.
Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about.
yes i agree completely. also faction war should never have been "fixed" by ccp. all the people in it were just whining for fixes and what they didn't have. there are no problems whatsoever with eve online and anyone who points one out is just trying for a handout. hahaha this whole time those stupid nullseccers could have been 'setting up trade agreements with neighbors', 'expanding their territory' and 'creating trade hubs' which would have solved all their problems in some nebulous fashion because of the emergent gameplay Nerf emergent gameplay. Unless it's emerging from NPCs or better yet actors with QA shield extenders to quadruply make sure nothing ever goes off track.
And then bugs occur. Sometimes players occur, but you can stomp on those more easily. I am a nullsec zealot. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4288
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 05:32:00 -
[892] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts. No, we're asking to be able to create our own content. Clearly you haven't actually read anything we're saying...
Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 05:38:00 -
[893] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Factional warfare is also a low barrier to entry.
Apparently null sec's barrier to entry is too high for most of you? Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4288
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 05:44:00 -
[894] - Quote
It's not so much a barrier as "wow this is completely pointless, what reason would anyone ever have to do this". Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1796
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 06:21:00 -
[895] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Frying Doom wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote:
With that ability the whole system would just collapse and we would have exactly what we have now but favouring outpost owners instead of NPC facility users.
We are literally talking about saving a few thousand per run if the outpost owners chose to charge nothing. You seriously think that will lead to a collape of NPC station use? In comparison to the expense of POS facilities? POS expenses aren't that high, really. Not when you break it down. Compared to the cost of NPC slots? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1796
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 06:27:00 -
[896] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:I know I'm right, along with a great many others. Null bears are calling for CCP intervention to fix their industry woes, when they should be doing it themselves. Instead, you're all content to roam your sovereign space, blue your neighbors, and whine about what you don't have. There's nothing stopping you from setting up trade agreements with other alliances, creating trade hubs, or any number of things....including going to war and expanding your territory for access to more industry options.
Yes, POSs need to be fixed. Yes, corp roles need fixed. Yes, you probably do need more industry slots. But the calls to be fully independent of high sec T1 production are ludicrous. The calls for "we should have access to everything without logistics" are equally stupid. And there's no reason to nerf other areas of space just so you can all feel like special snowflakes for 5 minutes until you find something else to whine about.
yes i agree completely. also faction war should never have been "fixed" by ccp. all the people in it were just whining for fixes and what they didn't have. there are no problems whatsoever with eve online and anyone who points one out is just trying for a handout. hahaha this whole time those stupid nullseccers could have been 'setting up trade agreements with neighbors', 'expanding their territory' and 'creating trade hubs' which would have solved all their problems in some nebulous fashion because of the emergent gameplay Hi-sec industry isn't factional warfare, its been around for 10 years. It was designed to have a low barrier to entry easy accessibility so that anyone could do it, much like PI has a low barrier to entry. It's " working as intendedGäó". Yes Pi is a great example, It costs more to do when you use an NPC POCO than it does when you use your own. With NPC taxes just like NPC station slots should.
Maybe that is the answer a Tax similar to the PI tax on the cost of the finished product. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5578
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 10:25:00 -
[897] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: In comparison to the expense of POS facilities?
POS need an utter rework, but thats not going to happen untill at least all the ships have been teircided. Keeping the fix as simple as possible would mean a much quicker fix for null sec industry as far as slots go. |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
317
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 10:30:00 -
[898] - Quote
Double the numbers of slots in Null... maybe even buff the slot's production speed, too.... less "red tape", fewer "middle management"... call it what you will, just frikkin' do it.
March Break, best break... ciao.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
baltec1
Bat Country
5578
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 10:43:00 -
[899] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Double the numbers of slots in Null... maybe even buff the slot's production speed, too.... less "red tape", fewer "middle management"... call it what you will, just frikkin' do it.
March Break, best break... ciao.
That wouldn't be enough. To give you an idea of how bad it is there are 5 systems in high sec with more slots than all of null sec combined.
Right now I would settle for 50% of highsecs number of slots and see how it goes from there. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1809
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 12:01:00 -
[900] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frying Doom wrote: In comparison to the expense of POS facilities?
POS need an utter rework, but thats not going to happen untill at least all the ships have been teircided. Keeping the fix as simple as possible would mean a much quicker fix for null sec industry as far as slots go. Actually the alterations to POS are mostly altering some percentages and fixing a couple of security holes. Not much is really needed to make them less of a torture device.
No it is unlikely CCP will ever actually bother fixing them properly so there is not much need to ask for that.
So a cost per usage for outposts and NPC facilities An increase in Outpost slots An alteration to POS refinery numbers A pos security fix A Pos hanger fix
And done
Bugger all really. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 13:22:00 -
[901] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not so much a barrier as "wow this is completely pointless, what reason would anyone ever have to do this". Yeah, it is pointless doing T1 production in nullsec.
You should be using that manufacturing capability to produce capital ships and drugs since you *can't* make those in highsec. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4318
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 13:25:00 -
[902] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not so much a barrier as "wow this is completely pointless, what reason would anyone ever have to do this". Yeah, it is pointless doing T1 production in nullsec. You should be using that manufacturing capability to produce capital ships and drugs since you *can't* make those in highsec. Capital ship production is also pointless in nullsec. So is T2 production and T3 production And drug production is so niche it's almost not worth talking about. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 13:37:00 -
[903] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not so much a barrier as "wow this is completely pointless, what reason would anyone ever have to do this". Yeah, it is pointless doing T1 production in nullsec. You should be using that manufacturing capability to produce capital ships and drugs since you *can't* make those in highsec. Capital ship production is also pointless in nullsec. So is T2 production and T3 production And drug production is so niche it's almost not worth talking about. So all those slowcat fleets and the titans to get them into place are made in highsec?
Or are you simply ignoring every other part of the game as part of this troll campaign? http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4318
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 13:40:00 -
[904] - Quote
Not nullsec = highsec. Kay. And most people use the term "capital" to refer to dreadnoughts and carriers, not titans and supers. The former two get built in lowsec (and wh space to be used there). The latter two get built the only place they can, which is nullsec. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 13:52:00 -
[905] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Not nullsec = highsec. Kay. And most people use the term "capital" to refer to dreadnoughts and carriers, not titans and supers. So?
You still can't build capital ships in highsec, they require POS lines in lowsec or lower to build, which means that it isn't any less convenient to build them in your sovereign space than it is anywhere else, and it should be more convenient to build them where you have your logistics set up to supply the materials properly.
As long as you have higher value items to build it would be foolish to use any additional productive capability to make T1 subcaps and modules.
So, of course, it stands to reason that the only way to make it economical to build them in nullsec is to make it uneconomical anywhere else, despite nullsec being the minority market for T1 (and even T2 and T3) by a fairly large margin.
So what makes you so important, bithugger? http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3547
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:07:00 -
[906] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Not nullsec = highsec. Kay. And most people use the term "capital" to refer to dreadnoughts and carriers, not titans and supers. The former two get built in lowsec (and wh space to be used there). The latter two get built the only place they can, which is nullsec. Isn't it great, everything is efficiently built in highsec except (supercaps). And even normal capitals can be built just outside of highsec (Still using NPC facilities to build the capitals though). I am a nullsec zealot. |
Evil piemaker
The Hidden Emporium
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:08:00 -
[907] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Logistics is everything.
People are reluctant to bring large amounts of valuable materials someplace where they can and probably would lose it.
Yes it's risk versus reward but the risk is total. What reward could balance that? A station that refines veldspar into Morphite?
Don't be silly, you need to train Alchemy V and then Advanced Alchemy to atleast IV for that to work. And we're looking at about 90 days for this. AA V is a horrible skill -stay away.
No,
Seriously. Null industry would benefit from worse logistics. If you know what you are doing, null is basically (at least if embedded in nice blue cotton made of a decent pvp meat shield) nearly as safe as high sec. The main problem I've seen is that 0.0 is centered around pvp to the exclusion of just about anything else.
Some corps, building caps, supers and titans, are exempt from the constant warfare - but industrial corps, building everything else, are upon frowned upon because it's easier to import stuff - and that saves people for pvp.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4318
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:12:00 -
[908] - Quote
Evil piemaker wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Logistics is everything.
People are reluctant to bring large amounts of valuable materials someplace where they can and probably would lose it.
Yes it's risk versus reward but the risk is total. What reward could balance that? A station that refines veldspar into Morphite? Don't be silly, you need to train Alchemy V and then Advanced Alchemy to atleast IV for that to work. And we're looking at about 90 days for this. AA V is a horrible skill -stay away. No, Seriously. Null industry would benefit from worse logistics. If you know what you are doing, null is basically (at least if embedded in nice blue cotton made of a decent pvp meat shield) nearly as safe as high sec. The main problem I've seen is that 0.0 is centered around pvp to the exclusion of just about anything else. Some corps, building caps, supers and titans, are exempt from the constant warfare - but industrial corps, building everything else, are upon frowned upon because it's easier to import stuff - and that saves people for pvp. Can't make logistics worse because that would hurt smaller groups more than larger ones - kind of a corollary to Malcanis' law. As far as what you said about industrial corps, that's kind of the exact problem we're trying to address here. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8086
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:34:00 -
[909] - Quote
Evil piemaker wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Logistics is everything.
People are reluctant to bring large amounts of valuable materials someplace where they can and probably would lose it.
Yes it's risk versus reward but the risk is total. What reward could balance that? A station that refines veldspar into Morphite? Don't be silly, you need to train Alchemy V and then Advanced Alchemy to atleast IV for that to work. And we're looking at about 90 days for this. AA V is a horrible skill -stay away. No, Seriously. Null industry would benefit from worse logistics. If you know what you are doing, null is basically (at least if embedded in nice blue cotton made of a decent pvp meat shield) nearly as safe as high sec. The main problem I've seen is that 0.0 is centered around pvp to the exclusion of just about anything else. Some corps, building caps, supers and titans, are exempt from the constant warfare - but industrial corps, building everything else, are upon frowned upon because it's easier to import stuff - and that saves people for pvp.
Increasing transportation overhead might enourage local markets in 0.0, but doing that before the dreadful deficit in 0.0 production capacity has been resolved would just kill 0.0 as quickly as removing all belts and missions would kill hi-sec. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
61
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:33:00 -
[910] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:As far as what you said about industrial corps, that's kind of the exact problem we're trying to address here.
Who do you guys think you're fooling with this line, anyway? It's been a few pages since any of you played the "greater good" card, so at least you're not laying it on as thick as you once were. No one honestly believes that any of you are advocating for null sec industry "for the little guy" or to attract indy corps into null. It's not going to happen. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4345
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:38:00 -
[911] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:As far as what you said about industrial corps, that's kind of the exact problem we're trying to address here. Who do you guys think you're fooling with this line, anyway? It's been a few pages since any of you played the "greater good" card, so at least you're not laying it on as thick as you once were. No one honestly believes that any of you are advocating for null sec industry "for the little guy" or to attract indy corps into null. It's not going to happen. You've never been in a single nullsec alliance or corporation. What makes you so sure of any of what you're saying when it's demonstrably untrue given that despite everything there are already some nullsec industrial corps, AND despite that several people have said they would like to do industry in null if it were feasible? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8086
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:51:00 -
[912] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:As far as what you said about industrial corps, that's kind of the exact problem we're trying to address here. Who do you guys think you're fooling with this line, anyway? It's been a few pages since any of you played the "greater good" card, so at least you're not laying it on as thick as you once were. No one honestly believes that any of you are advocating for null sec industry "for the little guy" or to attract indy corps into null. It's not going to happen.
Why do you think we wouldn't want to see industry improved "for the little guy"? Why wouldn't we want to attract indy corps into null? What's our motivation here?
PS Can you detail your nullsec experience? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:02:00 -
[913] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You've never been in a single nullsec alliance or corporation. What makes you so sure of any of what you're saying when it's demonstrably untrue given that despite everything there are already some nullsec industrial corps, AND despite that several people have said they would like to do industry in null if it were feasible?
I've never been a carpenter either, but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that a house without a roof is going to get wet.
"Some" nullsec industrial corps and "several people" who would do industry do not equal the wide sweeping changes that are being advocated in this thread, or by some of the CSM candidates. Industry in null is already feasible. Maybe it's not convenient or as profitable as you would like, but don't act as if it's broken completely.
Players will make their own choices. You could buff null industry until you're blue in the face, and it still won't attract the vast majority of the risk averse high sec industrialists. If it were (using your word here) feasible for them to be in null sec, then that's where they'd already be. The majority of them are in high sec because they don't want the bother of looking over their shoulder. They don't want the PvP element. They don't want to deal with super NPC spawns in belts. They don't want to be just another cog in the machine of a null sec super alliance.
Why is this so hard for you to understand? Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:10:00 -
[914] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:PS Can you detail your nullsec experience?
PPS Can you detail your public office experience? Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4362
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:46:00 -
[915] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You've never been in a single nullsec alliance or corporation. What makes you so sure of any of what you're saying when it's demonstrably untrue given that despite everything there are already some nullsec industrial corps, AND despite that several people have said they would like to do industry in null if it were feasible? I've never been a carpenter either, but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that a house without a roof is going to get wet. "Some" nullsec industrial corps and "several people" who would do industry do not equal the wide sweeping changes that are being advocated in this thread, or by some of the CSM candidates. Industry in null is already feasible. Maybe it's not convenient or as profitable as you would like, but don't act as if it's broken completely. Players will make their own choices. You could buff null industry until you're blue in the face, and it still won't attract the vast majority of the risk averse high sec industrialists. If it were (using your word here) feasible for them to be in null sec, then that's where they'd already be. The majority of them are in high sec because they don't want the bother of looking over their shoulder. They don't want the PvP element. They don't want to deal with super NPC spawns in belts. They don't want to be just another cog in the machine of a null sec super alliance. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Maybe it's hard for me to understand because the **** you're saying is blatantly untrue. You're spewing a ton of crap about how everyone who doesn't go to null must automatically be risk averse, and how that's the ONLY reason - no, it can't possibly have anything to do with the game mechanics concerning industry. I'm quite sure the risk aversity is why a lot of people are in highsec, but there are a sizeable number of people in nullsec alliances who do their industry in highsec. Why? It's not because they're averse to risk. No, nullsec industry is not feasible. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4362
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:47:00 -
[916] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Malcanis wrote:PS Can you detail your nullsec experience? PPS Can you detail your public office experience? Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
64
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 19:08:00 -
[917] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe it's hard for me to understand because the **** you're saying is blatantly untrue. You're spewing a ton of crap about how everyone who doesn't go to null must automatically be risk averse, and how that's the ONLY reason - no, it can't possibly have anything to do with the game mechanics concerning industry. I'm quite sure the risk aversity is why a lot of people are in highsec, but there are a sizeable number of people in nullsec alliances who do their industry in highsec. Why? It's not because they're averse to risk. No, nullsec industry is not feasible. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
No, it's not blatantly untrue. Quite the contrary, it's blatantly obvious.
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities? Furthermore, I didn't say that risk avoidance was the only reason, I said it was the main reason. There are others clearly listed in my previous post. Why do null sec alliances do their industry in high sec? The same reason high sec alliances do their industry in high sec. The math isn't that difficult. And if you think risk aversion isn't part of that equation, again, I'd remind you to remove those rose colored glasses.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM.
Maybe you should keep your nose out of posts that have nothing to do with you? You're having a hard enough time keeping up with your own. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:05:00 -
[918] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Malcanis wrote:PS Can you detail your nullsec experience? PPS Can you detail your public office experience? Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM. Oh my, you mean the internetspacepoliticians aren't also reallifepoliticians?
You don't say... which real politician would get their name mixed up in the internetspaceship stuff. When you could be building real bridges to nowhere, building CCP's bridges to breaking game must be humdrum. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:10:00 -
[919] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Malcanis wrote:PS Can you detail your nullsec experience? PPS Can you detail your public office experience? Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM. Oh my, you mean the internetspacepoliticians aren't also reallifepoliticians? You don't say... which real politician would get their name mixed up in the internetspaceship stuff. When you could be building real bridges to nowhere, building CCP's bridges to breaking game must be humdrum.
RIP Vile Rat? (Not really a politician, but a true life diplomat). "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5579
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:34:00 -
[920] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities?
Tell me why I would want to spend 300 to 400 mil every 21 days doing industry in null sec when I can do it in high sec and ship it out to null markets for a fraction of the price? |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:36:00 -
[921] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities? Tell me why I would want to spend 300 to 400 mil every 21 days doing industry in null sec when I can do it in high sec and ship it out to null markets for a fraction of the price? You don't, that's why if you're doing it in nullsec, you're doing supercapitals. I am a nullsec zealot. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5579
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:39:00 -
[922] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: You don't, that's why if you're doing it in nullsec, you're doing supercapitals.
Death to all supers. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1868
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:58:00 -
[923] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe it's hard for me to understand because the **** you're saying is blatantly untrue. You're spewing a ton of crap about how everyone who doesn't go to null must automatically be risk averse, and how that's the ONLY reason - no, it can't possibly have anything to do with the game mechanics concerning industry. I'm quite sure the risk aversity is why a lot of people are in highsec, but there are a sizeable number of people in nullsec alliances who do their industry in highsec. Why? It's not because they're averse to risk. No, nullsec industry is not feasible. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Why is this so hard for you to understand? No, it's not blatantly untrue. Quite the contrary, it's blatantly obvious. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities? Furthermore, I didn't say that risk avoidance was the only reason, I said it was the main reason. There are others clearly listed in my previous post. Why do null sec alliances do their industry in high sec? The same reason high sec alliances do their industry in high sec. The math isn't that difficult. And if you think risk aversion isn't part of that equation, again, I'd remind you to remove those rose colored glasses. James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM. Maybe you should keep your nose out of posts that have nothing to do with you? You're having a hard enough time keeping up with your own. Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1223
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:24:00 -
[924] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe it's hard for me to understand because the **** you're saying is blatantly untrue. You're spewing a ton of crap about how everyone who doesn't go to null must automatically be risk averse, and how that's the ONLY reason - no, it can't possibly have anything to do with the game mechanics concerning industry. I'm quite sure the risk aversity is why a lot of people are in highsec, but there are a sizeable number of people in nullsec alliances who do their industry in highsec. Why? It's not because they're averse to risk. No, nullsec industry is not feasible. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Why is this so hard for you to understand? No, it's not blatantly untrue. Quite the contrary, it's blatantly obvious. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities? Furthermore, I didn't say that risk avoidance was the only reason, I said it was the main reason. There are others clearly listed in my previous post. Why do null sec alliances do their industry in high sec? The same reason high sec alliances do their industry in high sec. The math isn't that difficult. And if you think risk aversion isn't part of that equation, again, I'd remind you to remove those rose colored glasses. James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maybe you should ask Psychotic Monk that same question, or anybody else who is running for or who has previously held a position on CSM. Maybe you should keep your nose out of posts that have nothing to do with you? You're having a hard enough time keeping up with your own.
I _want_ to get back into nullsec industry (flew with a GBC corp/alliance a long, long time ago ... I still don't know how I got in). But my problem is that I don't really like PvP, and the few corps that I've seen talking about having nullsec are (generally) of the "all PvP all the time" persuasion. If they're not, then "we're scrub renters".
I want to get back with a group that it feels like we're getting something done ... but at the same time, I don't have what they're looking for (good KB, etc). Malcanis for CSM 8! |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:57:00 -
[925] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec.
Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry.
This, I can get on board with. Approved. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4370
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:14:00 -
[926] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities?
Tell me why I would want to spend 300 to 400 mil every 21 days doing industry in null sec when I can do it in high sec and ship it out to null markets for a fraction of the price? I can't hear you over the sound of my personal agenda! Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:20:00 -
[927] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec.
This is the naive view from those backing the null sec blob alliances rhetoric and spin. A buff to income in null sec is not going into the wallets of individuals seeking more wealth in null sec but instead into the wallets of the large blue null sec care bear alliances. There is already more revenue generates in null sec than there is in high sec.
The null bears get a win win. They earn more ISK on top of the, already gamewide high, revenue they enjoy currently and get to pop "noobs" trying to branch out in search of the isk that was taken from the revenue pools were they currently play.
Just say no to this type of self centered rhetoric and spin.
A nerf to high sec and a buff to null isn't in the best interests of the game....but it sure is in the interest of the richest minority and their care bear null sec playgrounds. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4370
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:25:00 -
[928] - Quote
I can't hear you over the sound of my personal agenda! Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Antir
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:26:00 -
[929] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec.
This is the naive view from those backing the null sec blob alliances rhetoric and spin. A buff to income in null sec is not going into the wallets of individuals seeking more wealth in null sec but instead into the wallets of the large blue null sec care bear alliances. There is already more revenue generates in null sec than there is in high sec. The null bears get a win win. They earn more ISK on top of the, already gamewide high, revenue they enjoy currently and get to pop "noobs" trying to branch out in search of the isk that was taken from the revenue pools were they currently play. Just say no to this type of self centered rhetoric and spin. A nerf to high sec and a buff to null isn't in the best interests of the game....but it sure is in the interest of the richest minority and their care bear null sec playgrounds.
You are dumb the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine in high sec but they would like the opportunity to do that in 0.0. I used to run an industrial pos in delve but the considerable effort was not offset by how much easier and cheaper it was and is to import from empire. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:28:00 -
[930] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry. This, I can get on board with. Approved.
This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec.
To have them trying to cater their argument in such a way to make it seem like it benefits the individuals or small corps looking to make isk in null sec is pure hogwash.
This is about the rich blobs getting more wealthy and making their "mortal enemy" the high sec industrialist take a hit. It has nothing to do with some benevolent stance in the name of balance or fairness. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
|
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:29:00 -
[931] - Quote
Antir wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Frying Doom wrote: Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec.
This is the naive view from those backing the null sec blob alliances rhetoric and spin. A buff to income in null sec is not going into the wallets of individuals seeking more wealth in null sec but instead into the wallets of the large blue null sec care bear alliances. There is already more revenue generates in null sec than there is in high sec. The null bears get a win win. They earn more ISK on top of the, already gamewide high, revenue they enjoy currently and get to pop "noobs" trying to branch out in search of the isk that was taken from the revenue pools were they currently play. Just say no to this type of self centered rhetoric and spin. A nerf to high sec and a buff to null isn't in the best interests of the game....but it sure is in the interest of the richest minority and their care bear null sec playgrounds. You are dumb the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine in high sec but they would like the opportunity to do that in 0.0. I used to run an industrial pos in delve but the considerable effort was not offset by how much easier and cheaper it was and is to import from empire.
Oh no! The null sec care bear from Goonswarm called me "dumb". The horror....and irony.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1873
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:33:00 -
[932] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry. This, I can get on board with. Approved. This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec. Well then would you care to explain my interest in it? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
589
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:34:00 -
[933] - Quote
GOON....... grrrrrrrrrrr |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1692
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:35:00 -
[934] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Oh no! The null sec care bear from Goonswarm called me "dumb". The horror....and irony. 'You called me dumb but it is in fact you that is dumb' is not actually irony, despite what listening to all those Alanis Morrisette records may have taught you.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4370
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:40:00 -
[935] - Quote
Sariah Kion wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry. This, I can get on board with. Approved. This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec. To have them trying to cater their argument in such a way to make it seem like it benefits the individuals or small corps looking to make isk in null sec is pure hogwash. This is about the rich blobs getting more wealthy and making their "mortal enemy" the high sec industrialist take a hit. It has nothing to do with some benevolent stance in the name of balance or fairness. I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY PERSONAL AGENDA! Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:43:00 -
[936] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY PERSONAL AGENDA!
Thank you for clarifying. And here you had us all confused with your previous posts on this topic.
Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:46:00 -
[937] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry. This, I can get on board with. Approved. This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec. To have them trying to cater their argument in such a way to make it seem like it benefits the individuals or small corps looking to make isk in null sec is pure hogwash. This is about the rich blobs getting more wealthy and making their "mortal enemy" the high sec industrialist take a hit. It has nothing to do with some benevolent stance in the name of balance or fairness. I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY PERSONAL AGENDA! Damn powerful personal agenda.
I am a nullsec zealot. |
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:09:00 -
[938] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY PERSONAL AGENDA!
You posted that 3 times.
|
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:10:00 -
[939] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY PERSONAL AGENDA!
You posted that 3 times.
|
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1870
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:32:00 -
[940] - Quote
Please post civilly and constructively, thanks! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
|
CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2227
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:42:00 -
[941] - Quote
I have removed some spamming from this thread. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:43:00 -
[942] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Risk avoidance has something to do with why Hi-sec will continue to fill up even if Null sec industry is fixed.
As the playerbase grows there will always be some who just want to mine, run missions ect with little to no risk.
But as to Null it is not Risk avoidance but the profitability of risk that is involved. At the moment it is not profitable, as soon as you include the additional risk you notice that the venture is not profitable.
Making POSs more capable of refining and leveling the cost per slot per hr will do much to help balance this additional risk. Adding value to spodmium will also help balance this risk.
The whole point of this is to help offset the risk involved in more dangerous parts of space to give people the options of doing Industry in places other than hi-sec. Finally. At least someone gets it. Thank you for your non-drama queen response that actually makes sense for a buff to null industry. This, I can get on board with. Approved. This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec. Well then would you care to explain my interest in it? Because you're a deep cover GSF forums infiltration agent.
I am a nullsec zealot. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:44:00 -
[943] - Quote
Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine
/thread |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:46:00 -
[944] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story.
Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
524
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:51:00 -
[945] - Quote
Personally, I would like for industry to be viable, not just on large, but also on smaller scale for nullsec, so the individual indy can go there and set up shop, supplying the local market with their needs and wishes. Not an alliance level massive undertaking, but just the little guy who wants more from Eve than the everyday easy humdrum of freightering goods around, and firing up lines in high sec.
Once small scale industry like this, with a turnover of say 5-10B a month is viable in null, I know where I will be.
Hint: It's not in highsec.
|
Antir
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:51:00 -
[946] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story. Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all.
Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. |
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:08:00 -
[947] - Quote
Antir wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story. Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all. Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk.
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:13:00 -
[948] - Quote
Antir wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story. Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all. Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. We have a delicious blue donut, after all.
I wonder how those ratters down in delve are enjoying it... I am a nullsec zealot. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:18:00 -
[949] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Antir wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story. Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all. Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
They do not like to answer the tough questions. Dont expect an answer or reply outside of their usual juvenile asshatery. Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President* Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. A modern girl for a modern world. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
406
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:20:00 -
[950] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Antir wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Antir wrote:the people who this buff will help are currently making isk just fine /thread Yeah, they're doing industry in highsec. No problem at all, end of story. Might as well give highsec some more of those delicious cheap slots, it only helps the game after all. Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null? high risk: pos users
medium risk: outpost/conq station users
lowest risk: npc station users |
|
Kane Alvo
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
69
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:24:00 -
[951] - Quote
Antir wrote:Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk.
1) Open contacts. 2) Scroll through large list of blue. 3) Remove blue. 4) Congratulations, you just added conflict drivers in null sec. 5) Undock. Assets are now at risk. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |
Antir
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:26:00 -
[952] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Antir wrote:Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. 1) Open contacts. 2) Scroll through large list of blue. 3) Remove blue. 4) Congratulations, you just added conflict drivers in null sec. 5) Undock. Assets are now at risk.
I don't think you understand what a conflict driver is. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:33:00 -
[953] - Quote
Antir wrote:Kane Alvo wrote:Antir wrote:Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. 1) Open contacts. 2) Scroll through large list of blue. 3) Remove blue. 4) Congratulations, you just added conflict drivers in null sec. 5) Undock. Assets are now at risk. I don't think you understand what a conflict driver is. Sorry, but the Commissariat tells me who is blue, it isn't something on my end. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1882
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:17:00 -
[954] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:Antir wrote:Yep there is no need for more conflict drivers in null sec or more people putting assests at risk. 1) Open contacts. 2) Scroll through large list of blue. 3) Remove blue. 4) Congratulations, you just added conflict drivers in null sec. 5) Undock. Assets are now at risk. But why would any one do that when the likely losses are greater than the likely profits? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3945
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:01:00 -
[955] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote: high risk: pos users
medium risk: outpost/conq station users
lowest risk: npc station users
NPC nullsec users face a lot of risk.
As -10 to you, I have been to 2 of your own stations (one of which, with a man-sex related name ) and found nobody.
I have been a lot of times to NPC null stations and often found all sorts of nasties, double bubbles, carriers doing station games and much more. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:12:00 -
[956] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Tesal wrote:
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
high risk: pos users medium risk: outpost/conq station users lowest risk: npc station users
Nice dodge.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1883
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:19:00 -
[957] - Quote
Tesal wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Tesal wrote:
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
high risk: pos users medium risk: outpost/conq station users lowest risk: npc station users Nice dodge. Ok I am lost, how is that a dodge. Maybe I just need more coffee We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Coal Porter
Naturaly Selected
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:28:00 -
[958] - Quote
"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers ( Ok, no one is building dreads or carriers in HS :P ...insert relevant Eve product)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7039
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:32:00 -
[959] - Quote
Coal Porter wrote:"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers (Dreadnaughts)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky.
for the sake of realism, perhaps you should be paying a 35% tax in hisec, without the ability to evade it with a 0% personal corp
since you know it's an infrastructure-heavy protected area
since you love realism i'm sure you'll be behind this idea 100% ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7039
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:35:00 -
[960] - Quote
also realistically if I ran a factory and allowed people to use it i wouldn't let them use it for free or for the equivalent of a few cents to use my equipment for a full month
want me to keep going down the "realism" rabbit hole or are you only going to preach "realism" when it suits you ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1884
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:36:00 -
[961] - Quote
Coal Porter wrote:"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers ( Ok, no one is building dreads or carriers in HS :P ...insert relevant Eve product)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky. Just out of curiosity have you heard the term "War profiteering"? We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Coal Porter
Naturaly Selected
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:40:00 -
[962] - Quote
Andski wrote:Coal Porter wrote:"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers (Dreadnaughts)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky. for the sake of realism, perhaps you should be paying a 35% tax in hisec, without the ability to evade it with a 0% personal corp since you know it's an infrastructure-heavy protected area since you love realism i'm sure you'll be behind this idea 100%
That is actually a great point...conceeded. Perhaps HS industry in NPC stations should have a tax. Or use a POS in HS and risk wardecs to build tax free. Agreed that tax free industry with police protection is pretty ridiculous. One could make the argument that RL corps dodge much of their tax by building/registering in low tax "systems"...but they still outsource to Peaceful areas...not war zones.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3550
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:50:00 -
[963] - Quote
Andski wrote:also realistically if I ran a factory and allowed people to use it i wouldn't let them use it for free or for the equivalent of a few cents to use my equipment for a full month
want me to keep going down the "realism" rabbit hole or are you only going to preach "realism" when it suits you This is not part of the approved highsec reality. Please wait while CONCORD collects you for re-education about the joys of being a highsec dweller under their protection. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Tesal
235
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 03:35:00 -
[964] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Tesal wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Tesal wrote:
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
high risk: pos users medium risk: outpost/conq station users lowest risk: npc station users Nice dodge. Ok I am lost, how is that a dodge. Maybe I just need more coffee
The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets. The big guys will have low risk.
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1884
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 03:42:00 -
[965] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Tesal wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Tesal wrote:
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
high risk: pos users medium risk: outpost/conq station users lowest risk: npc station users Nice dodge. Ok I am lost, how is that a dodge. Maybe I just need more coffee The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets. The big guys will have low risk. oh you mean sov holding alliances We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7040
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 04:08:00 -
[966] - Quote
Tesal wrote:The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets. The big guys will have low risk.
how so ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3550
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 04:49:00 -
[967] - Quote
Andski wrote:Tesal wrote:The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets. The big guys will have low risk. how so Because we work together. We shouldn't do this.
Ban intel channels, nerf local. Ban Jabber too while you're at it. I am a nullsec zealot. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
600
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 06:10:00 -
[968] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Tesal wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Tesal wrote:
Who will have their assets at high risk under the new industry scheme in null? Who will have their assets at low risk under the new industry scheme in null?
high risk: pos users medium risk: outpost/conq station users lowest risk: npc station users Nice dodge. Ok I am lost, how is that a dodge. Maybe I just need more coffee The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets. The big guys will have low risk.
So basically it is a dodge if he doesn't give you the answer you're looking for? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1885
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 06:23:00 -
[969] - Quote
Actually this thread and the others in the last few days have made me come to realise why people would be members of Goonswarm.
Goons are arrogant jerks, who frankly have a massive chip on their shoulders and love to look down on everyone else. I must say they have always sickened me.
But with these threads I have come to realize the why of their culture.
They are almost a separate entity in EvE, once you are a goon no one smart will ever have you afterwards and this is what it is all about, it is a line in the sand that says that goons are not with the others of this game
And after this thread I can definitely see a reason to separate yourself from a large amount of the population and just go "I don't know these people" We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Goldnut Sachs
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 07:15:00 -
[970] - Quote
correct it is a cultural thang https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=208832&find=unread "I don't know these people" |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1885
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 07:27:00 -
[971] - Quote
Maybe I haven't had enough coffee today, but I am finding myself constantly thinking "These people play EvE, it is a miracle, as they should have been shot at birth." We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5580
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:33:00 -
[972] - Quote
Coal Porter wrote:"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers ( Ok, no one is building dreads or carriers in HS :P ...insert relevant Eve product)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky.
You might want to look up Britain from 1939 to 1945 if you are going down the "this can't happen in RL" route.
Then you can tell me which empire in histroy had no industrial base. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1897
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:36:00 -
[973] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Coal Porter wrote:"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"
No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?
Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work. Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.
Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers ( Ok, no one is building dreads or carriers in HS :P ...insert relevant Eve product)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.
There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.
Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise. "Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky. You might want to look up Britain from 1939 to 1945 if you are going down the "this can't happen in RL" route. Then you can tell me which empire in histroy had no industrial base. One would definitely not want to mention the forts set up on the frontiers by the roman legions either. We all thought CSM 6 was a war crime with it's massive Null Presence CSM7 topped it by selling out our Council to CCP, don't let it happen again. Vote or next time Incarna is your fault Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5580
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:45:00 -
[974] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: One would definitely not want to mention the forts set up on the frontiers by the roman legions either.
Or their legions in general. |
Goldnut Sachs
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:50:00 -
[975] - Quote
hur hur hur we do not sow |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
684
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 09:40:00 -
[976] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote: The real issue is the amount of minerals needed to conduct an alliance's day to day business (cta, structure grinding, etc). This is why 425mm rails are bought so much. When you see a sov jf kill look at how many rail guns are in the cargo. The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression. Mineral compression is when, during reprocessing, nearly as many minerals are taken out of the item as were put in to produce the item being reprocessed. That costs money for the rails, for the production, for the jump fuel, for the cynos, etc etc.
All this is beyond the realm of highsec industry. Where a highsec miner's biggest issue isn't being able to afk mine in a few areas or the production line.
425mm RG compression being replaced by a better mineral compression item would really the show there the real problem is with Null SEC industry? or is more needed? or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7082
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 09:42:00 -
[977] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec? ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
684
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 09:59:00 -
[978] - Quote
Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec?
bad logistics for 1
I do think better materials though not as easily accessable Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7082
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:05:00 -
[979] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec? bad logistics for 1 worse industry like the wild west in the US had.... I do think better materials though not as easily accessable
worse industry? bad logistics?
industry in hisec is literally the best in the game, the only limitation being that you can't build capitals, but you have single systems with hundreds of available slots within 3 jumps of jita
logistics is hilariously easy too considering that there are tons of people doing freighter runs for peanuts
please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:13:00 -
[980] - Quote
Oh look, this thread again. I thought it had died. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
895
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:19:00 -
[981] - Quote
Andski wrote: logistics is hilariously easy too considering that there are tons of people doing freighter runs for peanuts
please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec
Nullsec : logistics is hilariously easy too considering that there are jumpfreighters , jumpbridges , warp to 0 , blueblocs ....
Please tell me more about the egregious logistics in null compared to what it once was.Now tell me how much high traffic changed over the same number of years.
Spoiled brats is what i call that , how i'd love to see null returned to it's state in 2004 just to show you how 'easy' they made it for you.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
684
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:20:00 -
[982] - Quote
Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec? bad logistics for 1 worse industry like the wild west in the US had.... I do think better materials though not as easily accessable worse industry? bad logistics? industry in hisec is literally the best in the game, the only limitation being that you can't build capitals, but you have single systems with hundreds of available slots within 3 jumps of jita logistics is hilariously easy too considering that there are tons of people doing freighter runs for peanuts please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec
sorry I did mix that up/ NULL SEC should have worse logistics & industry likethe wild west for the most part had ( except for some good precious ore refining ) Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1063
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:22:00 -
[983] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Spoiled brats is what i call that , how i'd love to see null returned to it's state in 2004 just to show you how 'easy' they made it for you.
Protip: This *might* have more impact if you weren't saying it to someone from an alliance who conquered large swaths of space in the south without jump bridges, jump freighters and a handful of carriers at best. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
895
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:24:00 -
[984] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:flakeys wrote:Spoiled brats is what i call that , how i'd love to see null returned to it's state in 2004 just to show you how 'easy' they made it for you. Protip: This *might* have more impact if you weren't saying it to someone from an alliance who conquered large swaths of space in the south without jump bridges, jump freighters and a handful of carriers at best.
Let's forget who tagged along shall we , you did it allllll on your own.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:25:00 -
[985] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:sorry I did mix that up/ NULL SEC should have worse logistics & industry likethe wild west for the most part had ( except for some good precious ore refining ) No. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1063
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:27:00 -
[986] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Let's forget who tagged along shall we , you did it allllll on your own.
You mean more alliances who didn't have jump freighters or jump bridges? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8176
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:29:00 -
[987] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec? bad logistics for 1 worse industry like the wild west in the US had.... I do think better materials though not as easily accessable worse industry? bad logistics? industry in hisec is literally the best in the game, the only limitation being that you can't build capitals, but you have single systems with hundreds of available slots within 3 jumps of jita logistics is hilariously easy too considering that there are tons of people doing freighter runs for peanuts please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec sorry I did mix that up/ NULL SEC should have worse logistics & industry likethe wild west for the most part had ( except for some good precious ore refining )
And hi-sec shouldn't have level 4s or ships that can't be flown by trial accounts because it's just a starter area amirite?
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1078
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 10:41:00 -
[988] - Quote
Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec?
My annual sub. This is not a signature. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8178
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:16:00 -
[989] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Andski wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:or should NULL just realize that's the price of living in NULL?
what's the cost of living in hisec? My annual sub.
0/10 Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Dave Stark
2005
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:20:00 -
[990] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: And hi-sec shouldn't have level 4s or ships that can't be flown by trial accounts because it's just a starter area amirite?
i think high sec shouldn't have level 4s because i think the reaction to the removal of l4s in high sec would be comedy gold. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
|
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1245
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:35:00 -
[991] - Quote
Andski wrote: please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec
Getting to hear about stuff like the Battle of Asakai ... and going "I wish I was there".
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Fret Thiesant
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 15:36:00 -
[992] - Quote
Sandbox game man. We as a majority have decided on a nbsi policy. Naturally that makes the economy worse.
|
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 15:55:00 -
[993] - Quote
Fret Thiesant wrote:Sandbox game man. We as a majority have decided on a nbsi policy. Naturally that makes the economy worse.
That has nothing to do with it. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
897
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 16:19:00 -
[994] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Andski wrote: please tell me more about the egregious cost of living in hisec
Getting to hear about stuff like the Battle of Asakai ... and going "I wish I was there".
Black rise ... low-sec ... how hard can it be ?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1060
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 16:44:00 -
[995] - Quote
Why isn't this thread dead yet? HTFU!...for the children! |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
898
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 17:46:00 -
[996] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Why isn't this thread dead yet?
Because these null vs high discussions will only stop once the servers are killed in X years ?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5590
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 18:24:00 -
[997] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
sorry I did mix that up/ NULL SEC should have worse logistics & industry likethe wild west for the most part had ( except for some good precious ore refining )
We have had ten years of building in 0.0.
Ten yeas ago most of this was a desert.
So, the fact that the richest powers in EVE cant even build an industry to supply their own forces with enough ammo to do ratting let alone fight a war in their own empires doesn't sound broken to you? |
Tesal
237
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 18:59:00 -
[998] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
sorry I did mix that up/ NULL SEC should have worse logistics & industry likethe wild west for the most part had ( except for some good precious ore refining )
We have had ten years of building in 0.0. Ten yeas ago most of this was a desert. So, the fact that the richest powers in EVE cant even build an industry to supply their own forces with enough ammo to do ratting let alone fight a war in their own empires doesn't sound broken to you?
"You people" aren't just asking for enough slots to build ammo, you are also asking for hi-sec industry to be nuked.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5590
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 19:07:00 -
[999] - Quote
Tesal wrote:
"You people" aren't just asking for enough slots to build ammo, you are also asking for hi-sec industry to be nuked.
No we would be happy with simply the same slot availability as high sec. We are even willing to pay hundreds of billions in up front building costs. A level ground to compete on is enough. |
Sentamon
758
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:05:00 -
[1000] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tesal wrote:
"You people" aren't just asking for enough slots to build ammo, you are also asking for hi-sec industry to be nuked.
No we would be happy with simply the same slot availability as high sec. We are even willing to pay hundreds of billions in up front building costs. A level ground to compete on is enough.
Ok, as soon as all the nullsec ore and PvE content is put into highsec. Plus I want to build and fight with Titans in highsec too. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
|
Dave Stark
2007
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:08:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tesal wrote:
"You people" aren't just asking for enough slots to build ammo, you are also asking for hi-sec industry to be nuked.
No we would be happy with simply the same slot availability as high sec. We are even willing to pay hundreds of billions in up front building costs. A level ground to compete on is enough. Ok, as soon as all the nullsec ore and PvE content is put into highsec. Plus I want to build and fight with Titans in highsec too.
congratulations, let's fix the obvious issues with industry by breaking mining by introducing all the null sec ores in to high sec to make high sec worth even more isk/hour even though it's already worth more isk/hour than null sec.
what kind of stupid are you? Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13262
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:09:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Ok, as soon as all the nullsec ore and PvE content is put into highsec. Plus I want to build and fight with Titans in highsec too. Ok, as soon as all of highsec offers the same inherent security as nullsec. Plus, highsec-CSAAs will cost 50bn to anchor.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5590
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:10:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Ok, as soon as all the nullsec ore and PvE content is put into highsec. Plus I want to build and fight with Titans in highsec too.
So you like the fact that industrialists are the only group of players that are punished for taking greater risks. |
Sentamon
758
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:14:00 -
[1004] - Quote
PUNISHED!? Are you in pain?
How about all the crying blue donut children abandon nullsec leave it for the adults to manage. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13262
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:21:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:PUNISHED!? Are you in pain? Of course. It rather pains anyone with any kind of insight into the matter to see how mismanaged this part of the game is.
And yes, punished is a pretty apt description for what happens if you try to do null industry.
Quote:How about all the crying blue donut children abandon nullsec and leave it for the adults to manage. They already have.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5590
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:22:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:PUNISHED!? Are you in pain? How about all the crying blue donut children abandon nullsec and leave it for the adults to manage.
The fact you are spouting the blue donut myth shows you have no clue about null let alone null industry. |
Tesal
237
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:33:00 -
[1007] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:PUNISHED!? Are you in pain? How about all the crying blue donut children abandon nullsec and leave it for the adults to manage. The fact you are spouting the blue donut myth shows you have no clue about null let alone null industry.
Yah, hi-sec publords have no clue. Right on. Show them who is boss.
|
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
212
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 22:58:00 -
[1008] - Quote
After 50 pages worth of bullshit, this thread is still not going places.
[edit]
1000th post in the thread. Congratz to me. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Celly Smunt
Viziam Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 23:44:00 -
[1009] - Quote
posting in null vs high thread...
1st on page 51...
\o/ Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |
Tesal
238
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 00:57:00 -
[1010] - Quote
I am a self important, humorless and rigid disciplinarian. I await the progression of this thread to impose my uncompromising viewpoint. I will prevail because my logic is invincible and I can say or do no wrong.
Null is full of "NAP aspirantsGäó" these days. Here is an off topic video to remind people how EvE used to be played.
I hope this post has been educational. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5591
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 01:01:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Celly Smunt wrote:posting in null vs high thread...
1st on page 51...
\o/ Doesn't count if you have to edit |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
173
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 04:23:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Why not remove everything but highend minerals from null sec and introduce tech 3 freighters with ten times the cargo size of regular freighters? Logistics are a part of the game and if null sec had a better industry than high-sec the logistic game wouldn't be there and there'd be less chances of catching freighters moving goods to nullsec. Everybody likes Pi+¦atas. :) |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
259
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:02:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mocam wrote:Just wondering -- why does null need to meet or exceed all other space in every last way?
I mean they have the highest NPC bounty income, largest quantity of "low quality" ores, larges quantity of 'high quality" ores, so on and so forth.
So why do they need every last aspect of the game made easier and more profitable than all other space?
Won't that eliminate any and all reasons to ever actually trade for value vs "dump off" goods to other space? Don't you think it's rather dishonest to say that we're asking for " every last aspect of the game made easier and more profitable than all other space" when 10 years of building outposts in sov 0.0 has given us just 3% of the facilities that hi-sec enjoys for free?
No but I do think your singular view of 1 aspect of null is a tad dishonest.
I do know that TEST destroyed just under 386k NPC's last weekend ratting out of 174 systems - systems *THEY* control.
I do know that comparing that to Essence, it was "close' on NPC kills but only 3 pods fewer were destroyed in that small empire region as across all 174 nullsec systems, which is the bulk of 2 nullsec regions. Care to guess how "close" the income was from those 2 areas? This part I don't "know" but my guess is ... no where near as much.
Then again, the 61 outposts are "OWNED" by that nullsec alliance with full block/allow rights to all services yet even if you are -10 to Gallente, you could still visit and utilize all services and markets from those empire stations - how about that access to all those outposts out there?
Ownership seems to have certain perks and privileges -- sad that it also seems to have some downsides but let's look at this a bit closer.
We also have the fact that the China server runs the bulk of their manufacturing needs for null - out of nullsec. The US servers import. Because they have to? No because it is "more cost efficient" due to choice.
So if it's demonstrated that the ability to manufacture is there but is a pain in the butt with how POS's operate, that drops this to just choosing not to "for cost reasons" as in "can make more doing other stuff".
So - one more time - why do they deserve THIS area as well as all the other perks they already get - perks that include the ability to block others from access to what manufacturing resources they do put up when the other areas you compare with *ARE* fully open for anyone to use?
Oh and the numbers - yeah I actually checked them. The part you might find of more interest was a stat that made me smile then frown.
Over 620 ships were "destroyed" out of 1 highsec system this weekend in a single 24 hour period. Couster. It's why I tossed the data segment on ships destroyed.
You see that's a newbie system and there are 2 tutorial missions that destroy new ships. Net effect, that's probably well over 200 "new players' running missions from 1 of the *3* Gallente starting areas, just like each of the 4 factions has them.
If I had to pick a part of this game to look at, I think it would be how many of those will actually stay with the game and how to increase *THAT* number over easing life for the richest and most vet/alt centric portion of this game's community.
Over 200 trials in 24 hours...
Yeah I think that's something I'd prefer seeing recommendations on than vets muttering about easing their lives in EVE but it still doesn't answer the question on why they deserve even more than what they already have vs investing efforts elsewhere. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2386
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:24:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Yes. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4541
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:24:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Mocam wrote:We also have the fact that the China server runs the bulk of their manufacturing needs for null - out of nullsec. The US servers import. Because they have to? No because it is "more cost efficient" due to choice. Do you even economics? Cost efficiency has nothing to do with choice. The game mechanics are the limiting factor here. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:35:00 -
[1016] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mocam wrote:We also have the fact that the China server runs the bulk of their manufacturing needs for null - out of nullsec. The US servers import. Because they have to? No because it is "more cost efficient" due to choice. Do you even economics? Cost efficiency has nothing to do with choice. The game mechanics are the limiting factor here.
I think that's a question should be directed to the denizens of null on the chinese server.
If they have an english speaking person I'm sure their knowledge of economics would be staggering truth be told. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
BoBoZoBo
Divine Beasts Nite's Reign
218
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:17:00 -
[1017] - Quote
This is such an exhausted argument -
Null sec's industry should be as good as the residents can make it - and that is EXATLY what is going on now. How good do you think any industry can be when you lock out all your stations and kill everything not blue.
Nullbears have all the tools they need to make a success ful industry base - they choose to do other things. They are getting exactly what they are giving to the effort. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1224
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:30:00 -
[1018] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:Null sec's industry should be as good as the residents can make it - and that is EXATLY what is going on now. How good do you think any industry can be when you lock out all your stations and kill everything not blue.
Nullbears have all the tools they need to make a success ful industry base - they choose to do other things. They are getting exactly what they are giving to the effort.
You could've just said "hey guys, I have no idea about anything beyond highsec but I'm going to give you my barely thought out opinion anyway" and saved yourself some typing. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1594
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:32:00 -
[1019] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:This is such an exhausted argument -
Null sec's industry should be as good as the residents can make it - and that is EXATLY what is going on now. How good do you think any industry can be when you lock out all your stations and kill everything not blue.
Nullbears have all the tools they need to make a success ful industry base - they choose to do other things. They are getting exactly what they are giving to the effort.
This person has never been to null sec, my crystal ball tells me so.
How good can INDUSTRY be by locking out stations and killing non-blues? y6ea, that stuff totally makes a few SYSTEMS in high sec have as many manufacturing slots as entire null sec REGIONS. At also makes null sec mining less profitable that doing it in the safety of high sec....
The problems with null sec industry are structural, they have nothing to do with activity. CCP understands this which is why ccp is addressing (finally) the issues.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:33:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Removed (I don't even want to bother). "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:50:00 -
[1021] - Quote
POSes in hi sec are invincible for 24 hours. That's zero risk, apart from any lost margin due to station waits/multipliers.
The only way to solve it is to put high sec or empire on a different server to null.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8593
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:43:00 -
[1022] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:This is such an exhausted argument -
Null sec's industry should be as good as the residents can make it - and that is EXATLY what is going on now. How good do you think any industry can be when you lock out all your stations and kill everything not blue.
Nullbears have all the tools they need to make a success ful industry base - they choose to do other things. They are getting exactly what they are giving to the effort.
Hi there,
Please can you tell us stupid nullbears how to get stations invulnerable and to get 15 or 20 of them in the same system. try as we might, we just can't seem to figure out the secret that's so obvious to you genius hi-sec folk.
Also, we're only paying 25 or 30 billion ISK per station, and a bill or so a month in sov fees of course, - can you give us an idea of how much you're paying for those hi-sec stations. Clearly you're putting in more effort that we are, but it would be a help to know how much extra we'll have to budget for?
Many thanks,
Malcanis.
PS Also if you could have a look at these damb Amarr outposts, I just can't seem to get more than 4 office slots without spending another 15 bill or so on an upgrade, and there doesn't seem to be any way to get the dozens of slots that hi-sec stations have. And I must be missing something obvious, but where is the refinery? Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
BoBoZoBo
Divine Beasts Nite's Reign
219
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 18:52:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:You could've just said "hey guys, I have no idea about anything beyond highsec but I'm going to give you my barely thought out opinion anyway" and saved yourself some typing.
I could have said anything - I chose the truth.
Should have expected the default "he's never been to null" reply. Pretty much the extent of some individuals' ability to argue a point. Give all the opinion you want, the fact is some of you guys just aren't creative enough to make it happen the way you think you want it to work.
Jenn aSide wrote:[This person has never been to null sec, my crystal ball tells me so.
There is your first problem in not understanding things - Stop using a crystal ball to get your information and maybe you would have figured out to make as much money in null as any Hisecer. A simple intertubes search would show that at least 6 of my 10 years in eve has been in nullsec. Gathering data and facts for proper analysis would also be a proper function for this. Maybe your crystal ball's WiFi is weak.
Sure null needs a lot of improvements. Im not saying it does not need some overhaul. I just don't subscribe to the fact that the majority of the issue are completely systematic.
The people who inhabit that space are responsible for making the tools work. They have been focused on war and territory building and thats fine. But they don;t know how to make a region prosper economically. This is different than being really good at logistics and manipulating markets to leverage material in stock. Its a different game. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:18:00 -
[1024] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:I could have said anything - I chose the truth.
Should have expected the default "he's never been to null" reply. Pretty much the extent of some individuals' ability to argue a point. Give all the opinion you want, the fact is some of you guys just aren't creative enough to make it happen the way you think you want it to work.
If all you can come up with in the face of this issue is suggesting that manpower is the problem and not the lack of actual industrial capacity (which we cannot do anything about, given the extreme crappiness of outposts), you don't deserve much of an answer beyond pointing out the obvious - you've never been to null, never lived in null, and as such have no idea what you're talking about.
At least, that's what I hope. If you'd been to null and still came up with that load of nonsense, that might be descending into learning disability territory. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:22:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Brings up a side point (not trying to derail here) but if you have a threadnaught with veterans educating on how mechanics work.. why does anyone ever need to go into null to see if a station has 4 slots or 40?
Readers have the option to either A)Believe you, or B)Not believe you.
Research matters. Alternative pilots matter. Mains do not matter.
If I'm to believe Malcanis (Sorry man using you as an example cuz I figure you know your ****) when he educates me on a working(or non working) system, why on earth would I have to live in null at all?
Someone mentioning things in a discussion is either going to be right or wrong. Where they live hardly matters right?
Any rate, I see the point everyone is making... but I think the greener grass approach is a bit doomed at the start since highsec means not a damned thing in regards to nullsec.
You want nullsec, go to nullsec. You want highsec, go to highsec.
You don't want to travel between the 2? Sorry but there's your options I guess. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
559
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:35:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Brings up a side point (not trying to derail here) but if you have a threadnaught with veterans educating on how mechanics work.. why does anyone ever need to go into null to see if a station has 4 slots or 40? highsec nobodies pontificating on How Nullsec Works generally make hilariously dumb assumptions that betray a lack of any real understanding of the subject
highsec people can check our assertions when we say things like perimeter has more slots than all of scalding pass, but when they are making their own assertions they will tend to make constant errors because they're not familiar with the basic facts at all |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
559
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:36:00 -
[1027] - Quote
basically you don't have to live in nullsec to know malcanis is right but you sure as hell need to have lived in nullsec to have your own theory of how it works |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8595
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:39:00 -
[1028] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:Snow Axe wrote:You could've just said "hey guys, I have no idea about anything beyond highsec but I'm going to give you my barely thought out opinion anyway" and saved yourself some typing. I could have said anything - I chose the truth. Should have expected the default "he's never been to null" reply. Pretty much the extent of some individuals' ability to argue a point. Give all the opinion you want, the fact is some of you guys just aren't creative enough to make it happen the way you think you want it to work. Jenn aSide wrote:[This person has never been to null sec, my crystal ball tells me so. There is your first problem in not understanding things - Stop using a crystal ball to get your information and maybe you would have figured out to make as much money in null as any Hisecer. A simple intertubes search would show that at least 6 of my 10 years in eve has been in nullsec. Gathering data and facts for proper analysis would also be a proper function for this. Maybe your crystal ball's WiFi is weak. Sure null needs a lot of improvements. Im not saying it does not need some overhaul. I just don't subscribe to the fact that the majority of the issue are completely systematic. The people who inhabit that space are responsible for making the tools work. They have been focused on war and territory building and thats fine. But they don;t know how to make a region prosper economically. This is different than being really good at logistics and manipulating markets to leverage material in stock. Its a different game.
How do we get around the fact that hi-sec has over 68,000 manufacturing slots and after 8 years of station building 0.0 only has 2300 or so? It would take around 40 trillion ISK to build enough outposts to remedy that deficit (Assuming that there were enough sov 0.0 systems, which there aren't)
So leaving aside the unfathomable cost, it's physically impossible with the current mechanics. How on earth can you say the problem isn't "systemic"? Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
baltec1
Bat Country
5884
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 19:50:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Oh hey this theads back. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:28:00 -
[1030] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Brings up a side point (not trying to derail here) but if you have a threadnaught with veterans educating on how mechanics work.. why does anyone ever need to go into null to see if a station has 4 slots or 40? highsec nobodies pontificating on How Nullsec Works generally make hilariously dumb assumptions that betray a lack of any real understanding of the subject highsec people can check our assertions when we say things like perimeter has more slots than all of scalding pass, but when they are making their own assertions they will tend to make constant errors because they're not familiar with the basic facts at all
It was more in reply to the general assumption of "you don't live in nullsec therefore you dont know" when this game is based on separate accounts to accomplish a great many things of which are based on secrecy or subterfuge =P
But yea, I understand your point. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 20:29:00 -
[1031] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Oh hey this theads back.
LOL that's what I said when I first seen it pop up. Which is why I retracted my original post. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Frying Doom
2283
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:07:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Beware of Mocam
Apparently EvE University is training people to bring back the dead.
Mocam the Necromancer. Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
834
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 08:04:00 -
[1033] - Quote
If powerbloc "blue everything" carebear alliances are a thing of the past then 0.0 is allowed to be better (ie, never), but it should be on par. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:49:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:...So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Better than highsec... that answer is no. A buff probably.
Why no, simple logic... You would have to have a very poor opinion of the Goonswarm Federation capabilities to think given control of a large percentage of industry they wouldn't find a way to use that to their advantage and to the disadvantage of everyone else.
The Goonswarm Federation has many smart and knowledgeable members who will find the cracks and use it to full advantage. |
Dave Stark
2520
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 09:55:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Primary Me wrote:...So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Better than highsec... that answer is no. A buff probably. Why no, simple logic... You would have to have a very poor opinion of the Goonswarm Federation capabilities to think given control of a large percentage of industry they wouldn't find a way to use that to their advantage and to the disadvantage of everyone else. The Goonswarm Federation has many smart and knowledgeable members who will find the cracks and use it to full advantage.
even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable.
hell, i was reading a piece by the mittani (yes, i know, don't look at me like that) about running an alliance or something, and he just point blank said ignore industry. some might consider that notion absurd but clearly, it's working for goons.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/88
Quote:Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isnGÇÖt. [more stuff, go read it yourself] Maggie Thatcher. |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:10:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Make null sec have the rare expensive items and high sec have the inexpensive easily obtainable items that you need lots of. Introduce trade between high sec and low sec, (+ null sec)
It makes sense what they've done. Why are some people arguing that null sec should be a **** fest? If logistics is an issue I had an idea for introducing tech 3 freighters which would hold 10M m3. They would have to be escorted of course.
Dunno there's a lot of possibilities to null sec rebalacing but arguing for making Null sec everything seems short sighted. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:12:00 -
[1037] - Quote
I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth.
Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to.
This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec.
I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit.
If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward". |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:15:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable.... I have no experience in 0.0 mining, but that does seem old.
|
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:19:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable.... I have no experience in 0.0 mining, but that does seem old.
granted in the month or so since originally did the maths trit etc has fallen so high sec lost some of it's isk/m3 value, but it's still above null sec, the only real argument that i'm wrong is rorq bonuses vs orca bonuses. a few days ago it was roughly 6% more isk/m3 mining in high sec, but rorq bonuses give you a 14% yield increase so it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.
but as far as numbers go, scordite isk/m3 > large grav site sov upgrade thingy isk/m3. Maggie Thatcher. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:21:00 -
[1040] - Quote
DrClit wrote:I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth. Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to. This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec. I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit. If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward". Quote:If anyone has any business acumen you will understand that business will not venture into areas with high risk if you were clever you would promote null sec as being an incredibly safe are to live and that you can do your stuff in peace. Afterall intel channels are blinking as soon as someone is anywhere near your area which has nothing to do with sov.
Industry is rare in null because there are only about 3% as many manufacturing slots in sov 0.0 as there are in hi-sec.
Regardless of whether players would like to do their manufacturing in their own space, they can't.
Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much. Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
67
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:25:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.... It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0.
|
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:26:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:DrClit wrote:I would much prefer a null sec with no sov or territory but with clusters of space that have different worth. Having lived in null sec for years, with the communication channels and intel channels used in and out of the game null sec is a fairly manageable risk. Risk that you can not control is when you can not manage what is around you and since there is more chance of the unexpected happening in high sec that is why for me i believe high sec has more risk. I can list but i'm not going to. This argument needs to be decided by first of all deciding what the vision of null sec should be. I think its pretty aragont of people to say the reason why null sec is stagnant is becuase most of the people that play eve find it more lucrative to play in high sec. I play in high sec becuase its easier to get into a ship and go do what i enjoy the most which is playing the game with a bunch of internet nerds. I think the answer has to be to have islands of high sec with the core of null sec (my vision of null sec is one without sovs) creating islands creates markets and hubs for the null sec dwellers to visit. If you think this is complete rubbish - answer me this, why is it that one of the most active systems in eve is the Torrinos to EC- gate? People do not go to null sec to mine and trade and take part in "Industry" they go to kill stuff. This is what alliances expect of you since most of the industry is hauled from jita. the quicker the community realise that industry in null sec is a rare activity the quicker we can put to bed this bull argument about "risk versus reward". Quote:If anyone has any business acumen you will understand that business will not venture into areas with high risk if you were clever you would promote null sec as being an incredibly safe are to live and that you can do your stuff in peace. Afterall intel channels are blinking as soon as someone is anywhere near your area which has nothing to do with sov. Industry is rare in null because there are only about 3% as many manufacturing slots in sov 0.0 as there are in hi-sec. Regardless of whether players would like to do their manufacturing in their own space, they can't. Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much.
Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:27:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.... It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0.
exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:37:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.... It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper.
The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec.
If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point.
i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with nearly 4bil inthe hull of my freighter. High sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play, |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:39:00 -
[1045] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.... It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper. The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec. If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point. i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with 4bil in my cargo hold high sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play, if you get caught in null sec you were either very unlucky being bumped off the station or incredibly stupid, in most case its the latter.
i'll let you in on a secret; you don't have to be attacked to have your mining disrupted in null sec like you do in high sec. Maggie Thatcher. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:49:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:...Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much... If 0.0 doesn't get an industry buff the Goons will starve to death. Interesting.
|
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:50:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz.... It you know what you are doing in Highsec, the risk of attack from anything but small NPCs is very small. I am not sure the same can be said about 0.0. exactly, the fact that high sec doesn't have such interruptions means even with rorqual bonuses null sec mining is unlikely to be more profitable even if it can be argued that it is on paper. The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec. OK you have awoxers but thats only the same as high sec. when there is an abundance of players thats when the risk is at the highest, you don't get anywhere near the concentration of people in one system like you get in high sec. If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point. i'll let you in on a little secret, i nearly got ganked in high sec with 4bil in my cargo hold high sec ganking is happening more often and their are corporations set up for this type of game play, if you get caught in null sec you were either very unlucky being bumped off the station or incredibly stupid, in most case its the latter. i'll let you in on a secret; you don't have to be attacked to have your mining disrupted in null sec like you do in high sec.
I'm sorry - i thought playing null sec was all about playing as a team to build ecosystems, where people worked together to maintain security so that the one AFK cloaky doesnt disrupt your game play, so if this does happen there are things in place so that you can carry your operation on? I think what you are trying to do is sugar coat the fact that just becuase you live in null sec gives you the right to earn more isk, just because. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8599
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:51:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:...Your argument is like arguing against giving food to starving people because they don't eat much... If 0.0 doesn't get an industry buff the Goons will starve to death. Interesting.
Goons will be fine; 0.0 industrialists won't. Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:53:00 -
[1049] - Quote
DrClit wrote:I think what you are trying to do is sugar coat the fact that just becuase you live in null sec gives you the right to earn more isk, just because.
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions. Maggie Thatcher. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 10:56:00 -
[1050] - Quote
DrClit wrote:...The risk of attack is much higher in high sec just becuase the chance of the unexpected happening is much higher than living in null sec...
....If you get caught in a belt in null sec thats your own fault for not watching intel, not being on comms, not being in a fleet, being part of an alliance that doesn't have a roaming defence fleet and not being aligned to warp to a safe point... During my seven weeks of mining in highsec, I never got attack. That was last Oct/Nov, so thing may have changed drastically, but I have my doubts. A max yield Procurer with a tank has little chance of being attacked, if you use some OPSEC. Even if you did lose one, it can easily be replace with two hours of mining.
I can't speak for other areas... and not even with that much experience..., but in CVA space you get reds a lot. Plus questionable neutrals. I don't mine there, but I do have a toon there. |
|
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:12:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills.
You said it right there - why should someone in high sec suffer when they spent the same amount of time training mining skills to maximise their isk/hour then someone who does it in null sec? They've spent the same amount of time training so deserves to be rewarded.
Quote:During my seven weeks of mining in highsec, I never got attack. That was last Oct/Nov, so thing may have changed drastically, but I have my doubts. A max yield Procurer with a tank has little chance of being attacked, if you use some OPSEC. Even if you did lose one, it can easily be replace with two hours of mining.
I can't speak for other areas... and not even with that much experience..., but in CVA space you get reds a lot. Plus questionable neutrals. I don't mine there, but I do have a toon there.
Im not sure what point you are making here? If you read my comments i was talking about the concentration of players and the risk of the unexpected happening is much greater in high sec than in null sec where the concetration of players is much less. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:21:00 -
[1052] - Quote
DrClit wrote:...Im not sure what point you are making here?... It might have been a non-sequitur post from me. Just saying, from my experience, the risk in 0.0 is worse than Highsec.
|
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:21:00 -
[1053] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills. You said it right there - why should someone in high sec suffer when they spent the same amount of time training mining skills to maximise their isk/hour then someone who does it in null sec? They've spent the same amount of time training so deserves to be rewarded.
and you can fly a raven with nothing but caldari battleship II or something.
how is missioning different? need higher skills for harder missions, just like you need higher skills to mine, and refine rarer (or, "harder") ores.
but they haven't spent the same amount of time training skills. veldspar processing, for example, is a much faster train than things like arkonor processing. why shouldn't you be rewarded for spending the extra time training arkonor instead of veldspar? Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:37:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills. You said it right there - why should someone in high sec suffer when they spent the same amount of time training mining skills to maximise their isk/hour then someone who does it in null sec? They've spent the same amount of time training so deserves to be rewarded. and you can fly a raven with nothing but caldari battleship II or something. how is missioning different? need higher skills for harder missions, just like you need higher skills to mine, and refine rarer (or, "harder") ores. but they haven't spent the same amount of time training skills. veldspar processing, for example, is a much faster train than things like arkonor processing. why shouldn't you be rewarded for spending the extra time training arkonor instead of veldspar?
Read my post again and try to make sense of it. People who spend the time training to make their isk/hour more efficient should be rewarded i say that quite clearly. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:39:00 -
[1055] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills. You said it right there - why should someone in high sec suffer when they spent the same amount of time training mining skills to maximise their isk/hour then someone who does it in null sec? They've spent the same amount of time training so deserves to be rewarded. and you can fly a raven with nothing but caldari battleship II or something. how is missioning different? need higher skills for harder missions, just like you need higher skills to mine, and refine rarer (or, "harder") ores. but they haven't spent the same amount of time training skills. veldspar processing, for example, is a much faster train than things like arkonor processing. why shouldn't you be rewarded for spending the extra time training arkonor instead of veldspar? Read my post again and try to make sense of it. People who spend the time training to make their isk/hour more efficient should be rewarded i say that quite clearly.
i tried but it's full of things that are just plain incorrect. my response was just correcting you. Maggie Thatcher. |
Anva Dante
Bunch of Noobs Logistics
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:39:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Short answer: "No"
Long Answer: "nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo" |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:42:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills. You said it right there - why should someone in high sec suffer when they spent the same amount of time training mining skills to maximise their isk/hour then someone who does it in null sec? They've spent the same amount of time training so deserves to be rewarded. and you can fly a raven with nothing but caldari battleship II or something. how is missioning different? need higher skills for harder missions, just like you need higher skills to mine, and refine rarer (or, "harder") ores. but they haven't spent the same amount of time training skills. veldspar processing, for example, is a much faster train than things like arkonor processing. why shouldn't you be rewarded for spending the extra time training arkonor instead of veldspar? Read my post again and try to make sense of it. People who spend the time training to make their isk/hour more efficient should be rewarded i say that quite clearly. i tried but it's full of things that are just plain incorrect. my response was just correcting you.
Are you talking about "MINING" or "Reprocessing" since now you are talking about something 2 completely different acts. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:43:00 -
[1058] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Are you talking about "MINING" or "Reprocessing" since now you are talking about something completely different.
both, it applies to both equally. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:50:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Are you talking about "MINING" or "Reprocessing" since now you are talking about something completely different. both, it applies to both equally.
I dont think it does since you can have someone do it for you and there are people that have "specialised" in having max processing yield. What has that got to do with null sec versus high sec? |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:51:00 -
[1060] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Are you talking about "MINING" or "Reprocessing" since now you are talking about something completely different. both, it applies to both equally. I dont think it does since you can have someone do it for you and there are people that have "specialised" in having max processing yield. What has that got to do with null sec versus high sec?
could just, y'know read my posts and then you'd realise what this has to do with high sec and null sec. Maggie Thatcher. |
|
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:56:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Are you talking about "MINING" or "Reprocessing" since now you are talking about something completely different. both, it applies to both equally. I dont think it does since you can have someone do it for you and there are people that have "specialised" in having max processing yield. What has that got to do with null sec versus high sec? could just, y'know read my posts and then you'd realise what this has to do with high sec and null sec.
Nope im obviously well below your intelligence so spell it out for me.
If its the point that to process arknor you need skills which means you should have a higher isk/hour then i've agreed with you. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:58:00 -
[1062] - Quote
small victory for me then. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 11:59:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:small victory for me then.
I didnt realise having a discussion on a forum was a form of pvp.
But since you claimed victory im still waiting for you to write a half decent reply. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:01:00 -
[1064] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:small victory for me then. I didnt realise having a discussion on a forum was a form of pvp. But since you claimed victory im still waiting for you to write a have decent reply.
you wouldn't be waiting if you'd read my posts. *shrug* Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:03:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:small victory for me then. I didnt realise having a discussion on a forum was a form of pvp. But since you claimed victory im still waiting for you to write a have decent reply. you wouldn't be waiting if you'd read my posts. *shrug*
I read your posts and i'm asking your to use the single brain cell you have to explain what this has to do with high sec industry versus null sec. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:04:00 -
[1066] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:small victory for me then. I didnt realise having a discussion on a forum was a form of pvp. But since you claimed victory im still waiting for you to write a have decent reply. you wouldn't be waiting if you'd read my posts. *shrug* I read your posts and i'm asking your to use the single brain cell you have to explain what this has to do with high sec industry versus null sec.
go read my posts and find out. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:09:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
go read my posts and find out.
LOL....
you sound like Sheldon Cooper stuck in a loop so ill leave you there since it seems completely beyond you to have a civilised discussion. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:10:00 -
[1068] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
go read my posts and find out.
LOL.... you sound like Sheldon Cooper stuck in a loop so ill leave you there since it seems completely beyond you to have a civilised discussion.
hard to do that when one party refuses to read the posts. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:20:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
go read my posts and find out.
LOL.... you sound like Sheldon Cooper stuck in a loop so ill leave you there since it seems completely beyond you to have a civilised discussion. hard to do that when one party refuses to read the posts.
I asked you to explain it again becuase i still get your argument.
There is a rule in effective commucation that says:
"The effectiveness of my communication is in the response i get".
just saying. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:24:00 -
[1070] - Quote
DrClit wrote:just saying.
you're not actually saying anything; that's the entire problem. Maggie Thatcher. |
|
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:25:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:just saying. you're not actually saying anything; that's the entire problem.
read my posts again and you will see that there is no problem. |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:31:00 -
[1072] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:just saying. you're not actually saying anything; that's the entire problem. read my posts again and you will see that there is no problem.
i've read them, there isn't anything for the last 2 pages or so.
how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page. Maggie Thatcher. |
DrClit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:34:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:just saying. you're not actually saying anything; that's the entire problem. read my posts again and you will see that there is no problem. i've read them, there isn't anything for the last 2 pages or so. how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page.
I still think you should read them again im pretty sure you'd get it eventually. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:38:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:... how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page. Can i have my 1 ISK?
It isn't my place, but you two seem to be somewhat 'warmed up'. Perhaps let it go for a while?
I have Guinness ! |
Dave Stark
2521
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:44:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:... how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page. Can i have my 1 ISK? It isn't my place, but you two seem to be somewhat 'warmed up'. Perhaps let it go for a while? I have Guinness !
damn you. Maggie Thatcher. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1356
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:44:00 -
[1076] - Quote
DrClit wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null.
the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
Thats complete rubbish you can mine all types of ore with level 1 skills. missioning is completely different since you are right to complete the hard missions solo you need higher skills. I remember the days of sitting mining Arkonor in a hulk rigged up for max yield per cycle and did it fairly effectively with bare mining skills.
"bare" mining skills for a hulk "fit for max yield" are hardly "bare mining skills".
"bare mining skills" in a venture are more what you're arguing about.
Yes, you can use a no skill (L1 Ore Frig, L1 Mining) character to mine. You're getting just under 103m3 per laser (102.9), assuming you're running with Cu Vapor Miners (base 49 m3/cycle). with 2 lasers, that's about 206 m3/minute. Arkonor is 16 m3/unit, so you're getting 6 units per laser (well, 6.4 or so, but EVE rounds down).
You need 200 units (3,600 m3) to refine Ark. This will take you approximately 15 minutes (pulling in 12/minute), and net you about 850k (~129k for the zyd, ~717k for the mega, and 1620 for the trit using Eve-central Jita median buy price). ASSUMING PERFECT REFINING
In that same 30 minutes, mining veldspar, you get 61740 units of veld (205.8 m3/min = 2058 units/min * 30 min), netting you about 1m ISK. ASSUMING PERFECT REFINING.
Now, your no-skill miner isn't going to have perfect refining. IIRC, the base yield for a no-skill toon (after taxes) is a little over 80% (since you need refining 1 to refine).
Net yield is (station base) + ((refining constant) * (refining factor) * (efficiency factor) * (spec factor)) where:
- station base is the base yield of the station (50% in hisec usually) - refining constant is 37.5% - refining factor is 1+(0.02*Refining Skill Level) - efficiency factor is 1+(0.04*Refinery Efficiency Skill Level) - spec factor is 1+(0.05*Ore Processing Skill Level)
So, our rookie miner has a yield of 50 + (37.5*1.02*1*1) = 88.25, less station taxes ... 88.25*.95 = 83.83% Ark = 700k Veld = 830k
Now, we're assuming that there aren't any belt rats. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a no-skill venture can't tank nullsec belt rats in the same vein as a no-skill frig can't tank a L4 mission. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:47:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:... how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page. Can i have my 1 ISK? It isn't my place, but you two seem to be somewhat 'warmed up'. Perhaps let it go for a while? I have Guinness ! damn you.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1597
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 12:49:00 -
[1078] - Quote
And now to get back on track :) .
The Question is: should null industry be better than high sec industry.
The real answer is - NO, it shouldn't by default be better, but players in null sec should (IF they put in the time and effort, risk loss and work to defend it) be able to build the "99% self sufficient" industrial empires CCP has said they them to be able to.
A player should be able to just live and play in null sec if thats what they choose to do. As it s now, that's nearly impossible, somehow, in some way either that player has to go back to "empire" (or maintain an empire presence via alts) for stuff OR pay someone else to bring them stuff from empire. After 10 years of spenidng TRILLIONS of isk and fighting (killing millions of ships), null sec has 3% of high sec's industrial capacity.
Is a player wants to live in null sec and be an industrialist/builder/whatever, they syhould be able to do that without having to be dependent on empire, in the EXACt same way that a player who doesn't want to leave high sec should not be forced to. High sec partisans wo't back any change though, because one the one hand they are condemning the kinds of people who go to null sec while on the other hand they are happily selling them the fruits of their high sec carebearing.....
Please CCP, free us from Core Worlds/High Sec Tyranny!. Cuba Null Sec Libre! |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1356
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:00:00 -
[1079] - Quote
I'll agree that it shouldn't be better by default -- but, with the right amount of effort, it should be better, and be able to cut itself off from empire -- with the exception that minerals and moongoo be exported to fund the alliances (because you still need ISK to pay off CONCORD, etc). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1597
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:02:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:I'll agree that it shouldn't be better by default -- but, with the right amount of effort, it should be better, and be able to cut itself off from empire -- with the exception that minerals and moongoo be exported to fund the alliances (because you still need ISK to pay off CONCORD, etc).
Needing to ship stuff to empire to fund alliances is still dependence, and ccp's stated goal for null was virtual independence ("99% self sufficent").
The relationship between null and high (and all other parts of EVE) should be free and fair trade, not the current one way slavery to high sec.
|
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:08:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...even so, you still can't deny things such as high sec mining having a higher isk/m3 (and thus higher isk/hour) than null sec mining being justifiable.... I have no experience in 0.0 mining, but that does seem old. granted in the month or so since originally did the maths trit etc has fallen so high sec lost some of it's isk/m3 value, but it's still above null sec, the only real argument that i'm wrong is rorq bonuses vs orca bonuses. a few days ago it was roughly 6% more isk/m3 mining in high sec, but rorq bonuses give you a 14% yield increase so it could be argued that null is actually worth more isk/hour but then there's the logistical costs, the interruption of neutrals in local, all that jazz. but as far as numbers go, scordite isk/m3 > large grav site sov upgrade thingy isk/m3.
What if you took the fact of the market being player ran (ignoring the price in one market versus another, we know the player is going to transport whereever the # is greater) and also took into consideration that rock for rock (yea I know) null does have a higher value of ore? Based on m3 I mean.
Now, with the supposed factor of null having a fleet of exhumers going to work, you can get a much greater quantity out of those belts right? Quantity is it's own quality and all that.
I think that's the design behind null having a greater "value".
Yes you can say "but Murk, you can just move belts" and you'd be right! But as a for instance, even if I decide to solo mine after work for a few hours to chill in say... Jel... 70% of the belts are either fully stripped or are not going to give enough yield to make it worth my time.
If I say mined in a system that had 5 station and only 6 belts in null... and logged on late in the day, I'm pretty sure I could mine as much as I want without having to switch rocks, let alone belts.
So in short, I don't think using the market is going to actually reinforce the reality of what belt has a greater value in what sector of space.
I understand the point of spending costs to move the ore, but in reality, we are talking about using the ore to build ships, not sell to the public right? After all, null is about empire building. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:11:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:DrClit wrote:I think what you are trying to do is sugar coat the fact that just becuase you live in null sec gives you the right to earn more isk, just because. if you really did think, perhaps you would have noticed i'm in an npc corp. hence, i don't live in null. the very fact that mining the ores in null sec requires more training time is the reason null sec ores should be worth more, not just because they're in null. just like the same way level 4 missions are worth more than level 1 missions because you have to spend more time training to fly things capable of dealing with the missions.
They are worth more based on difficulty and the content, not what you had to train.
I've done plenty of L4's in a frigate. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
617
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:19:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Velicitia wrote:I'll agree that it shouldn't be better by default -- but, with the right amount of effort, it should be better, and be able to cut itself off from empire -- with the exception that minerals and moongoo be exported to fund the alliances (because you still need ISK to pay off CONCORD, etc). Needing to ship stuff to empire to fund alliances is still dependence, and ccp's stated goal for null was virtual independence ("99% self sufficent"). well. i can;t say much about SOV-tax values but....
All 0.0 regions has NPC with bounties. So (theoretically) 0.0 every alliance has direct stream of ISK from ratting. Isn't it a way to complete self-sufficient funding?
Jenn aSide wrote: The relationship between null and high (and all other parts of EVE) should be free and fair trade, not the current one way slavery to high sec.
What does high-sec have no one outside has too?
Short answer: Jita market and industrial capacities. That's all.
However high-sec needs a lot: materials for T3, materials for T2, dead-space stuff, high-level minerals, ...
Where is the real slavery then? |
Dave Stark
2525
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:19:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:What if you took the fact of the market being player ran (ignoring the price in one market versus another, we know the player is going to transport whereever the # is greater) and also took into consideration that rock for rock (yea I know) null does have a higher value of ore? Based on m3 I mean.
Now, with the supposed factor of null having a fleet of exhumers going to work, you can get a much greater quantity out of those belts right? Quantity is it's own quality and all that.
I think that's the design behind null having a greater "value".
Yes you can say "but Murk, you can just move belts" and you'd be right! But as a for instance, even if I decide to solo mine after work for a few hours to chill in say... Jel... 70% of the belts are either fully stripped or are not going to give enough yield to make it worth my time.
If I say mined in a system that had 5 station and only 6 belts in null... and logged on late in the day, I'm pretty sure I could mine as much as I want without having to switch rocks, let alone belts.
So in short, I don't think using the market is going to actually reinforce the reality of what belt has a greater value in what sector of space.
I understand the point of spending costs to move the ore, but in reality, we are talking about using the ore to build ships, not sell to the public right? After all, null is about empire building.
in null sec, mining is done in grav sites. grav sites are worth less isk/m3 than scordite. thank spod and gneiss for that, dragging down the average isk/m3 of a grav site. unfortunately due to the nature of grav sites, you can't just cherry pick the ark and ignore the rest.
nothing stops you putting those exhumers in high sec and obtaining the same quantity, at a higher isk/quantity value.
the only thing null has going for it is the rorq bonuses, which as i pointed out are the hinge of the debate as to which is worth more isk, high sec or null sec. i'm not saying high sec is always more profitable, however it is generally when all considerations are taken in to account i feel it is. oh and scordite isk/m3 > grav site isk/m3 is just fact, i've run the maths. although i haven't updated the sheet in a few days, but i doubt it has changed all that much. although the gap is closing.
then i will repeat the "move belts" suggestion. the ore is there if you look for it, even with the proliferation of high sec miners. find that remaining 30% of belts, or pick another activity.
# of belts in null sec is irrelevant, once you have the first industry upgrade installed in a sov system.
you might not think so, but that's exactly how it works. a belt's value is determined by how much isk the market will give you for it's contents.
as for transport costs there will always be costs; yes some minerals will be kept for local production. however by nature 0.0 must over produce megacyte/zyd/morphite because high sec doesn't have access to those minerals so the excess has to be exported. the only way to reduce these costs to 0 is to basically say "all production is done in null" and that's silly. Maggie Thatcher. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:25:00 -
[1085] - Quote
well. i can;t say much about SOV-tax values but....
All 0.0 regions has NPC with bounties. So (theoretically) 0.0 every alliance has direct stream of ISK from ratting. Isn't it a way to complete self-sufficient funding?[/quote]
What do you spend the isk on in null sec if all the builders (even the one who WANT to build in null sec) are livng in high sec.
We're talking about industry, not isk. BUT if we are talking about is, it's still easier to make almost as much is (or more if you count incursions) in high sec.
Quote: What does high-sec have no one outside has too?
Short answer: Jita market and industrial capacities. That's all.
However high-sec needs a lot: materials for T3, materials for T2, dead-space stuff, high-level minerals, ...
Where is the real slavery then?
High sec eosn't "need" the stuff wormholes and null sec provide. You don't HAVE to fly Tengus and machariels, in a real pinch you can fly locally produced tech 1 ships just fine if that's all you had.
Null sec NEEDS things that can't be produced locally (or that cost too much to produce locally). With 3% of high sec building capacity, null sec can't provide the numbers of complete ships needed to maintain current levels of PVP, we NEED ships built in empire.
Null sec NEEDs what high sec has, High sec just "wants" what comes from outside but doesn't need it, so yes, the rest of us ARE slaves to high sec. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5898
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:28:00 -
[1086] - Quote
DrClit wrote:
Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with.
Yes lets spend hundreds of billions a month on POS that can be attacked to get what high sec has for almost free and no risk! |
Dave Stark
2525
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:31:00 -
[1087] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:DrClit wrote:
Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with.
Yes lets spend hundreds of billions a month on POS that can be attacked to get what high sec has for almost free and no risk!
but it's null sec, it's supposed to have more risk! Maggie Thatcher. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:39:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Velicitia wrote:I'll agree that it shouldn't be better by default -- but, with the right amount of effort, it should be better, and be able to cut itself off from empire -- with the exception that minerals and moongoo be exported to fund the alliances (because you still need ISK to pay off CONCORD, etc). Needing to ship stuff to empire to fund alliances is still dependence, and ccp's stated goal for null was virtual independence ("99% self sufficent"). The relationship between null and high (and all other parts of EVE) should be free and fair trade, not the current one way slavery to high sec.
True. The trouble is getting it right.
In my limited experiences with w-space, it seems just about right. They don't have ice, so import that from k-space. They don't have "much" manufacturing capacity, so export mostly finished parts to k-space for final assembly (or the raw materials I suppose, whichever is easier profit-wise).
Nullsec is more touchy -- make it too good, and there's no need to export to hisec ... so it should be done in a few passes; rather than one big "we fixed it!" patch. No exports to hisec/empire, and then empire T2 will skyrocket.
edit -- skyrocketing T2 may not be a bad thing ... but it raises the barrier that much farther.
On top of that, once nullsec stops putting upward pressure on T1 ships, they start declining in price. At some point, it again becomes favorable to buy in hisec and ship everything back to null, and we end up right where we are. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1282
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:19:00 -
[1089] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:DrClit wrote:
Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with.
Yes lets spend hundreds of billions a month on POS that can be attacked to get what high sec has for almost free and no risk!
I'd like to see some changes to how highsec slots work. First step: reduce the numbers. Second. Specialise them by corporation, so some stations can do ships, but not modules and so on. Third step: limit the number that someone can use in each station.
That /should/ push more people into POS, without utterly destroying production by people just starting out. Ideally modular POS would allow for smaller , and personal, pos than we have these days, to allow newbies a taste, without the 100 mill per month cost.
Increasing the slots in outposts would also be good. I could hardly believe it when I read what the various outpost upgrades did. (9 from the advanced, 14 from the two intermediate and 15 from the basic factories. plus 4 from being an amarr factory outpost. 42 slots. And that's stopping any other upgrades, like a refinery. And these cost tens of billions. And it's always possible I've misread the details.) The capabilities of Outposts, and the fact they're limited to one per system, really screws with Null's Industry. I have to laugh at the 'Outposts are a major upgrade from running operations out of a collection of starbases.'. The major benefits, atm, are docking and being indestructible. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:21:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:26:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:What if you took the fact of the market being player ran (ignoring the price in one market versus another, we know the player is going to transport whereever the # is greater) and also took into consideration that rock for rock (yea I know) null does have a higher value of ore? Based on m3 I mean.
Now, with the supposed factor of null having a fleet of exhumers going to work, you can get a much greater quantity out of those belts right? Quantity is it's own quality and all that.
I think that's the design behind null having a greater "value".
Yes you can say "but Murk, you can just move belts" and you'd be right! But as a for instance, even if I decide to solo mine after work for a few hours to chill in say... Jel... 70% of the belts are either fully stripped or are not going to give enough yield to make it worth my time.
If I say mined in a system that had 5 station and only 6 belts in null... and logged on late in the day, I'm pretty sure I could mine as much as I want without having to switch rocks, let alone belts.
So in short, I don't think using the market is going to actually reinforce the reality of what belt has a greater value in what sector of space.
I understand the point of spending costs to move the ore, but in reality, we are talking about using the ore to build ships, not sell to the public right? After all, null is about empire building. in null sec, mining is done in grav sites. grav sites are worth less isk/m3 than scordite. thank spod and gneiss for that, dragging down the average isk/m3 of a grav site. unfortunately due to the nature of grav sites, you can't just cherry pick the ark and ignore the rest. nothing stops you putting those exhumers in high sec and obtaining the same quantity, at a higher isk/quantity value. the only thing null has going for it is the rorq bonuses, which as i pointed out are the hinge of the debate as to which is worth more isk, high sec or null sec. i'm not saying high sec is always more profitable, however it is generally when all considerations are taken in to account i feel it is. oh and scordite isk/m3 > grav site isk/m3 is just fact, i've run the maths. although i haven't updated the sheet in a few days, but i doubt it has changed all that much. although the gap is closing. then i will repeat the "move belts" suggestion. the ore is there if you look for it, even with the proliferation of high sec miners. find that remaining 30% of belts, or pick another activity. # of belts in null sec is irrelevant, once you have the first industry upgrade installed in a sov system. you might not think so, but that's exactly how it works. a belt's value is determined by how much isk the market will give you for it's contents. as for transport costs there will always be costs; yes some minerals will be kept for local production. however by nature 0.0 must over produce megacyte/zyd/morphite because high sec doesn't have access to those minerals so the excess has to be exported. the only way to reduce these costs to 0 is to basically say "all production is done in null" and that's silly.
That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?
I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5899
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:31:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient.
Navy items/ammo/ships is a big market as are loot items like MWD and sensor boosters. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:31:00 -
[1093] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:DrClit wrote:
Build a pos then douche. Your argument is like arguing against starving people dont eat much food anyway so why give them any to begin with.
Yes lets spend hundreds of billions a month on POS that can be attacked to get what high sec has for almost free and no risk!
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
Just because it's more expensive doesn't mean it's impossible, which is what I think the whole null vs highsec debate comes from.
Yes, you can EASILY make more money transporting your goods from null to highsec and pay for the logistics. Yes you can transport goods from highsec to null and still keep more money than building it in null.
But that doesn't mean you can't do it in null right? Just means you can't do it for FREE.
Now, I do think null should have more slots. Null should, by design, be meant to accomodate more people. But I think it's safe to say that will come with a cost too.
Which is why risk vs reward exists and more money could be had in null. More more more is the order of the day =).
More danger, more isk, more people (should be, that's player fault though), more cost. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:33:00 -
[1094] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient. Navy items/ammo/ships is a big market as are loot items like MWD and sensor boosters.
None of those are dependent on survival. Only a "luxury" (don;t roast me for that!) to make things easier and better.
Just like 9 is better than 8, neither are 0 however.
Ammo however.. you got me there. Kinda need that. Didn't know you could not make ammo in null. That's actually pretty fuckin ********.
Unless you mean navy ammo, then it can be discarded.
Wait a sec, I just realized something.....
You're telling me that NAVY can't be built in null?
That uh, well, I'm trying not to **** you off but think about that. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Dave Stark
2526
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:34:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?
I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)?
i'll admit; i don't exactly get what you mean.
but, i'll answer it in the best way i can. null sec only has use for a fraction of the minerals mined in null sec, as i pointed out. therefore the remainder of the minerals will be exported and sold else where. this means null sec alliances would be agreeing to pay their miners above jita price for what? alternatively they could just let their miners export it to jita, buy it at jita prices, and bring it back to null sec. which also puts a limit on how much you can sell your zyd/mega for locally (price of the mineral at jita price + logistics costs) even at that "above jita price" the demand is so small and the supply exceeds it such that it'll quickly fall to jita price or below.
then again if you're importing things, you may as well import whole modules and whole ships rather than the materials (mynnna wrote about it in his tritanium bottleneck article on themittani why it'd be better to import stuff rather than materials, he explains it better than i would)
hence if you're importing everything from high sec, you need to send your stuff to high sec so the producers can purchase your raw materials, which means it goes to jita. so there's really no way around giving minerals a market price. Maggie Thatcher. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:36:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?
I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)? i'll admit; i don't exactly get what you mean. but, i'll answer it in the best way i can. null sec only has use for a fraction of the minerals mined in null sec, as i pointed out. therefore the remainder of the minerals will be exported and sold else where. this means null sec alliances would be agreeing to pay their miners above jita price for what? alternatively they could just let their miners export it to jita, buy it at jita prices, and bring it back to null sec. which also puts a limit on how much you can sell your zyd/mega for locally (price of the mineral at jita price + logistics costs) even at that "above jita price" the demand is so small and the supply exceeds it such that it'll quickly fall to jita price or below. then again if you're importing things, you may as well import whole modules and whole ships rather than the materials (mynnna wrote about it in his tritanium bottleneck article on themittani why it'd be better to import stuff rather than materials, he explains it better than i would) hence if you're importing everything from high sec, you need to send your stuff to high sec so the producers can purchase your raw materials, which means it goes to jita. so there's really no way around giving minerals a market price.
Well, I'm lookin at what Jenn said about being "99% self sufficient" and looking at things with the same eye you would use watching Walking Dead.
Terms of survival without using highsec. Like, can't you get the same ore and minerals from reprocessing loot gotten from wrecks and rats? And those anoms? I see TONS of wrecks from rats that are unlooted in null all the time.
Not counting pure salvage, that's a lot of minerals. In fact, due to my own laziness I loot my bs wrecks and always just process the stuff that doesn't have a buy order for it. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7425
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:37:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient.
let's put it this way: anything can be built in nullsec, but it isn't, and the difference in efficiency is far more than 1%
the only thing I bother building in 0.0 is the frigates we need for our newbie program, simply because the quantities I need to provide are impossible to source in Jita at times and because it's more efficient to ship uncompressed minerals in a jump freighter than hulls mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5900
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:38:00 -
[1098] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:44:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient. let's put it this way: anything can be built in nullsec, but it isn't, and the difference in efficiency is far more than 1% the only thing I bother building in 0.0 is the frigates we need for our newbie program, simply because the quantities I need to provide are impossible to source in Jita at times and because it's more efficient to ship uncompressed minerals in a jump freighter than hulls
So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?
I'm trying to get a full breakdown to see what's mechanic, and what's player laziness/greed. Not to be an ass, or hateful, but to understand.
Especially if I'm going to be a part of a sov alliance (and I hate highsec) and maybe even one day run one, or be a building block for one.
I don't want to adopt other peoples' views, but I do want to know what works, and how, and why, and apply them to my own goals. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:45:00 -
[1100] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.
Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:47:00 -
[1101] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.
And thats the point (so simple a point yet so hard for some to grasp).
It's like that in more than industry. For instance I can and do kill npcs in null sec, but I can make the same or more isk in empire running incursions not having to stare at local while someone else does all the driving. End result, I spend more time doing incursions than null sec ratting, as do many of my peers.
The industiralist can do many things in null, but its freer, easier and cheaper to do it in empire. A whole class of players are virtually forced to live in space they don't want to by circumstance.
High sec player whine all the time about feeling forced to do this or that (they aren't forced, ccp just did things to "encourage" them out of high sec), but its perfectly ok to those same high sec players that high sec be so good as to make many activities in null sec basically moot.
I don't think industrialists are looking for more isk, they would simply like to leave where they want, just like the high sec people. I don't know what's wrong with that idea.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5900
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:47:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it).
Right now it is impossible to match high sec industry out in null. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:48:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. And thats the point (so simple a point yet so hard for some to grasp). It's like that in more than industry. For instance I can and do kill npcs in null sec, but I can make the same or more isk in empire running incursions not having to stare at local while someone else does all the driving. End result, I spend more time doing incursions than null sec ratting, as do many of my peers. The industiralist can do many things in null, but its freer, easier and cheaper to do it in empire. A whole class of players are virtually forced to live in space they don't want to by circumstance. High sec player whine all the time about feeling forced to do this or that (they aren't forced, ccp just did things to "encourage" them out of high sec), but its perfectly ok to those same high sec players that high sec be so good as to make many activities in null sec basically moot. I don't think industrialists are looking for more isk, they would simply like to leave where they want, just like the high sec people. I don't know what's wrong with that idea.
That doesn't mean it's broken. Just not as ideal as you'd like. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Dave Stark
2526
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:48:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?
I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)? i'll admit; i don't exactly get what you mean. but, i'll answer it in the best way i can. null sec only has use for a fraction of the minerals mined in null sec, as i pointed out. therefore the remainder of the minerals will be exported and sold else where. this means null sec alliances would be agreeing to pay their miners above jita price for what? alternatively they could just let their miners export it to jita, buy it at jita prices, and bring it back to null sec. which also puts a limit on how much you can sell your zyd/mega for locally (price of the mineral at jita price + logistics costs) even at that "above jita price" the demand is so small and the supply exceeds it such that it'll quickly fall to jita price or below. then again if you're importing things, you may as well import whole modules and whole ships rather than the materials (mynnna wrote about it in his tritanium bottleneck article on themittani why it'd be better to import stuff rather than materials, he explains it better than i would) hence if you're importing everything from high sec, you need to send your stuff to high sec so the producers can purchase your raw materials, which means it goes to jita. so there's really no way around giving minerals a market price. Well, I'm lookin at what Jenn said about being "99% self sufficient" and looking at things with the same eye you would use watching Walking Dead. Terms of survival without using highsec. Like, can't you get the same ore and minerals from reprocessing loot gotten from wrecks and rats? And those anoms? I see TONS of wrecks from rats that are unlooted in null all the time. Not counting pure salvage, that's a lot of minerals. In fact, due to my own laziness I loot my bs wrecks and always just process the stuff that doesn't have a buy order for it.
you can be self sufficient, however you've then got to look at the ratios of minerals that come out of a grav site. as i said, by nature 0.0 must overproduce on things like mega/zyd.
two things can happen, we export it to jita. bam, market price. we separate null and high sec, no interaction what so ever; trit is now worth 30k per unit, and megacyte is less useful than a condom vending machine in the vatican. well perhaps nothing that extreme but the demand on stuff in null sec is higher than locally sourced minerals can provide with regards to low ends. (the most lucrative grav site in null has 0 veld, scord, and pyrox, or something. it's 3 of the common low ends, cba to go check but you get the point)
(i may need to edit this, forums went full ****** on me. give me a moment) edit: meta 0 no longer drops, and iirc meta 1-4 reprocesses to less minerals or something? not quite sure on that one, i don't reprocess a lot of modules, and when i do i sure as **** don't check what i'm actually getting.
look at the chinese server, that's exactly what they do. then look at their ship prices. demand is bigger than supply, because they don't mine on serenity, they reprocess all their rat loot. or, so i've been led to believe. Maggie Thatcher. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:49:00 -
[1105] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it).
Right now it is impossible to match high sec industry out in null.
THAT I can understand and get behind. I do think null should have more slots. Definitely.
That's where all the 2000v2000 fights come from. Frontline should be churning some crap out by the truckload.
I just don't think the higher end quality should match, based on storyline quantification.
Just like you can't make empire specific things in null. Because it's well, empire specific. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:49:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that. I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken. To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved.
It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:52:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that. I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken. To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved. It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity.
Players shouldn't be slaves to isk at all.
That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).
It does work, just not as well as you'd like. That's why it's a choice.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
305
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:54:00 -
[1108] - Quote
I do very much think that pirate faction stuff should be possible to build however, and NOT in highsec. Null specific, npc maybe.
That would be fun and would encourage a whole different direction and add a new element. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:58:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that. I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken. To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved. It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity. Players shouldn't be slaves to isk at all. That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper). It does work, just not as well as you'd like. That's why it's a choice.
So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?
That's insane. Who does that? Do you?
If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.
No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8601
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:01:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it).
Well if by "labour pains" you mean "getting thousands of invulnerable stations for free", then no I guess we don't go through that.
Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7425
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:12:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?
Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
addelee
Low Sec Pharmacies ProtoStar Federation
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:18:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like? Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient
I agree. T1 stuff is normally built where we are (i.e. ammo, ships, rigs) but everything else gets imported. Building anything T2 or above becomes a chore in null as the amount of components required for manufacture are a) often not available and b) high in price therefore it becomes a neccassity to import t2 stuff due to cost alone.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5902
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:28:00 -
[1113] - Quote
addelee wrote:Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like? Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient I agree. T1 stuff is normally built where we are (i.e. ammo, ships, rigs) but everything else gets imported. Building anything T2 or above becomes a chore in null as the amount of components required for manufacture are a) often not available and b) high in price therefore it becomes a neccassity to import t2 stuff due to cost alone.
Theres not enough slots in 0.0 to keep up with ammo demand in peacetime let alone when at war. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:34:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?
I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)? i'll admit; i don't exactly get what you mean. but, i'll answer it in the best way i can. null sec only has use for a fraction of the minerals mined in null sec, as i pointed out. therefore the remainder of the minerals will be exported and sold else where. this means null sec alliances would be agreeing to pay their miners above jita price for what? alternatively they could just let their miners export it to jita, buy it at jita prices, and bring it back to null sec. which also puts a limit on how much you can sell your zyd/mega for locally (price of the mineral at jita price + logistics costs) even at that "above jita price" the demand is so small and the supply exceeds it such that it'll quickly fall to jita price or below. then again if you're importing things, you may as well import whole modules and whole ships rather than the materials (mynnna wrote about it in his tritanium bottleneck article on themittani why it'd be better to import stuff rather than materials, he explains it better than i would) hence if you're importing everything from high sec, you need to send your stuff to high sec so the producers can purchase your raw materials, which means it goes to jita. so there's really no way around giving minerals a market price. Well, I'm lookin at what Jenn said about being "99% self sufficient" and looking at things with the same eye you would use watching Walking Dead. Terms of survival without using highsec. Like, can't you get the same ore and minerals from reprocessing loot gotten from wrecks and rats? And those anoms? I see TONS of wrecks from rats that are unlooted in null all the time. Not counting pure salvage, that's a lot of minerals. In fact, due to my own laziness I loot my bs wrecks and always just process the stuff that doesn't have a buy order for it. you can be self sufficient, however you've then got to look at the ratios of minerals that come out of a grav site. as i said, by nature 0.0 must overproduce on things like mega/zyd. two things can happen, we export it to jita. bam, market price. we separate null and high sec, no interaction what so ever; trit is now worth 30k per unit, and megacyte is less useful than a condom vending machine in the vatican. well perhaps nothing that extreme but the demand on stuff in null sec is higher than locally sourced minerals can provide with regards to low ends. (the most lucrative grav site in null has 0 veld, scord, and pyrox, or something. it's 3 of the common low ends, cba to go check but you get the point) (i may need to edit this, forums went full ****** on me. give me a moment) edit: meta 0 no longer drops, and iirc meta 1-4 reprocesses to less minerals or something? not quite sure on that one, i don't reprocess a lot of modules, and when i do i sure as **** don't check what i'm actually getting. look at the chinese server, that's exactly what they do. then look at their ship prices. demand is bigger than supply, because they don't mine on serenity, they reprocess all their rat loot. or, so i've been led to believe.
Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Dave Stark
2527
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:37:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why?
why what? why does nobody mine on serenity? *shrug* no idea. Maggie Thatcher. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:43:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why? why what? why does nobody mine on serenity? *shrug* no idea.
I think Mark meant in general what works and what doesn't, not specifically to "no one mines on Serenity".
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
298
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 15:46:00 -
[1117] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).
And this is where your policy of avoiding the volume argument breaks down. Importing and production both have setup and maintenance costs (ISK and human). You can't produce enough to meet demand but you can import so why go through the pain of setting up and maintaining two systems at the same time when one can provide everything you need (and coincidentally do it cheaper too). |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:19:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?
That's insane. Who does that? Do you?
If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.
No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing.
You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =).
It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.
The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button.
"Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer.
For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out.
Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:25:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.
If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?
If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient. let's put it this way: anything can be built in nullsec, but it isn't, and the difference in efficiency is far more than 1% the only thing I bother building in 0.0 is the frigates we need for our newbie program, simply because the quantities I need to provide are impossible to source in Jita at times and because it's more efficient to ship uncompressed minerals in a jump freighter than hulls
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like? Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient
So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.
But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.
You either can, or can't, build the crap in null. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:28:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Greetings
This is a great thread, some of the most coherent discussion on the forums. I do not wish to lock this thread due to trolling, off topic rants, or pyramid posting. If you feel you must quote someone then grab only what you need in order to make your point. Keep the discussion rolling
On On ISD Flidais Asagiri Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:29:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.
Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for..
Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local).
Yea, it's that broken. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:40:00 -
[1122] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).
And this is where your policy of avoiding the volume argument breaks down. Importing and production both have setup and maintenance costs (ISK and human). You can't produce enough to meet demand but you can import so why go through the pain of setting up and maintaining two systems at the same time when one can provide everything you need (and coincidentally do it cheaper too).
That definitely lends to the argument I agree with that null needs more slots.
But using the reason "because of the highsec market" is a redundancy because building your own sustained market, which is the grounds of having sov (if I'm to believe what sov holders claim) shouldn't in theory have anything to do with highsec markets.
But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).
My argument comes from the "because of highsec" bs. Eliminate that ****. Stop worrying about highsec. I'm all for advocating pro null, but focus on that. Especially if you want it to be autonomous.
Saying otherwise breaks your own argument up into tiny bits.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
298
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:46:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?
That's insane. Who does that? Do you?
If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.
No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing. You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =). It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile. The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button. "Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer. For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out. Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken.
Except in this case 0.0 is an apartment block with an empty lift shaft and a set of stairs and sure you could try to climb up the inside of the lift shaft but you might fall and die and only one person can climb per day so you're better off just getting used to using the stairs.
Or you could move to the other apartment block with the free teleporter.
Murk Paradox wrote: But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).
Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?". |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7427
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:47:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.
But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.
You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.
Frigates being built in nullsec is a prime example of self-sufficiency, yes
Are you trolling mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:51:00 -
[1125] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.
Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for.. Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local). Yea, it's that broken.
Go to highsec and enjoy the view then. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:52:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Andski wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.
But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.
You either can, or can't, build the crap in null. Frigates being built in nullsec is a prime example of self-sufficiency, yes Are you trolling
Eh? Sounds like you are trying to troll yourself there m8. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7427
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:54:00 -
[1127] - Quote
"nullsec industry is fine because they build frigates" mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5905
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:57:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Enough with all the steps and lift nonsence, you lot are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
Simple fact is that 0.0 badly lacks the slots for industry and simply setting up a huge POS network to get those slots wont work because you will be undercut by people building stuff in highsec and just shipping it out for a fraction of the cost. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 16:58:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?
That's insane. Who does that? Do you?
If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.
No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing. You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =). It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile. The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button. "Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer. For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out. Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken. Except in this case 0.0 is an apartment block with an empty lift shaft and a set of stairs and sure you could try to climb up the inside of the lift shaft but you might fall and die and only one person can climb per day so you're better off just getting used to using the stairs. Or you could move to the other apartment block with the free teleporter. Murk Paradox wrote: But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).
Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".
If you want to prove something is broken, the best way to do that is to not use it. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1701
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:07:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Does anybody really expect change?
The Mittani wrote:Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims GÇô On Management |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
5905
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:10:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Look at the date. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:13:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.
But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.
You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.
Stuff can be built in null - fact Stuff can be bought in empire, carted to null, and be had cheaper than built in null and easier - fact.
However, this is kind of the same argument that you have at home. Let's say you like making pasta (as in flour + salt + water actually making the dough).
You can make pasta at home in quantities of say 5 pounds (approx 2.5 kilos) per week, because you're making your own flour (OMGWTF!), and you're already at the limits of your wheat production. The actual pasta-making process is (let's say) 3 hours from start to finish, for every 5 pound batch.
Now, you have a party coming up at the end of the week, and you're gonna be serving pasta to 60. Next week, you've promised to serve the same number of people ... and the week after that ... and so on.
You have three options --
1. somehow ramp up flour generation (i.e. mining) to cover your needs. However, you're now limited by the fact that you need 9 hours/week (on top of your day job and whatever else) to actually make the pasta. Not to mention there's a point where you're better off with
2. buy enough flour to cover your needs. You have to account for storage/transport (because 20 pounds of flour is bulky), and you're still needing to do that 9 hours of work, so you may be better off with
3. say "**** it" and just buy the damn pasta ready made from someone else. You save 9 hours of work/week, and can easily make your commitments of "enough pasta for everyone!", which leaves your "manufacturing slots" available for the more important things (cookies/cake/pie/whatever ... i.e. caps/supers/titans/whatever).
you obviously go for the third option, because your time and other resources are important, and it makes the most sense for you. Obviously, you may still make yourself pasta from time to time (because it tastes better or whatever). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:13:00 -
[1133] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Enough with all the steps and lift nonsence, you lot are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
Simple fact is that 0.0 badly lacks the slots for industry and simply setting up a huge POS network to get those slots wont work because you will be undercut by people building stuff in highsec and just shipping it out for a fraction of the cost.
This is true.
Damn that player ran market. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:15:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.
But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.
You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.
Stuff can be built in null - fact Stuff can be bought in empire, carted to null, and be had cheaper than built in null - fact. However, this is kind of the same argument that you have at home. Let's say you like making pasta (as in flour + salt + water actually making the dough). You can make pasta at home in quantities of say 5 pounds (approx 2.5 kilos) per week, because you're making your own flour (OMGWTF!), and you're already at the limits of your wheat production. The actual pasta-making process is (let's say) 3 hours from start to finish, for every 5 pound batch. Now, you have a party coming up at the end of the week, and you're gonna be serving pasta to 60. Next week, you've promised to serve the same number of people ... and the week after that ... and so on. You have three options -- 1. somehow ramp up flour generation (i.e. mining) to cover your needs. However, you're now limited by the fact that you need 9 hours/week (on top of your day job and whatever else) to actually make the pasta. Not to mention there's a point where you're better off with 2. buy enough flour to cover your needs. You have to account for storage/transport (because 20 pounds of flour is bulky), and you're still needing to do that 9 hours of work, so you may be better off with 3. say "**** it" and just buy the damn pasta ready made from someone else. You save 9 hours of work/week, and can easily make your commitments of "enough pasta for everyone!", which leaves your "manufacturing slots" available for the more important things (cookies/cake/pie/whatever ... i.e. caps/supers/titans/whatever).
None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".
I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
BoBoZoBo
Divine Beasts Nite's Reign
219
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:15:00 -
[1135] - Quote
They do expect change, but change in the system to conform to their view - not in the way they think themselves.
Anyone who disagrees with the agenda is all of a sudden ignorant or knows nothing about nullsec. Assuming so much is a pretty funny state of mind when you are trying to solve a problem.
Just goes to prove you can never escape the way you think... or don't think. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1701
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:16:00 -
[1136] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Look at the date. Shhhh! |
Dave Stark
2528
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:21:00 -
[1137] - Quote
late to the party, i posted this pages ago. Maggie Thatcher. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
990
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:22:00 -
[1138] - Quote
is it really an april fool's thing? it sounds normal enough?
The Mittani, Ten Ton Hammer http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/249413/page/2 wrote:Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isnGÇÖt. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a GÇÿproducerGÇÖ. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production; the hobbits of ASCN believed their own propaganda and assured each other that production mattered, but they were crushed utterly by Band of Brothers. Take after the words of House Greyjoy: GÇÿWe Do Not SowGÇÖ. Be particularly wary of capital/supercapital producers, who are often wealthy and consider themselves to be above alliance rules. Alliances have no need of GÇÿindustrial wingsGÇÖ, GÇÿindustrial directorsGÇÖ - none of it.
that 'everything gets imported from jita' bit sounds familiar, and it makes a lot more sense if the entire thing is quoted
imma prepared to admit ignorance if it's a joke but it doesn't sound too much like one |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:26:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".
I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.
Nullsec as a whole = about 5% the industrial capacity of empire
Nullsec alliance 1 = holds 100 systems (IIRC, roughly 10% of null). at absolute best, this means that they have 0.5% the industrial capacity of empire. Builds everything in house
Nullsec alliance 2 = holds 5 systems, import everything.
Everything else, with the exception of material is exactly the same difference -- alliance 2 is 1/20th the size, has 1/20th the raw skill, etc.
For every 1 ship that alliance 1 can build, alliance 2 can import 99.5.
At this point, it doesn't matter if alliance 1 has 20 trillion ISK ... they simply cannot replace ships and modules near fast enough to compete long term with Alliance 2. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Dave Stark
2528
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:27:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:is it really an april fool's thing?
we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time. Maggie Thatcher. |
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
990
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:29:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is it really an april fool's thing? we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time. i don't read anything that really seems out of place. if it's a joke, i don't get it. |
Dave Stark
2528
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:31:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is it really an april fool's thing? we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time. i don't read anything that really seems out of place. if it's a joke, i don't get it. i agree.
also it's not tmc so i'm not sure he could have known it was going up on the 1st, but then again you never know. still, grain of salt and all. Maggie Thatcher. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:33:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".
I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.
Nullsec as a whole = about 5% the industrial capacity of empireNullsec alliance 1 = holds 100 systems (IIRC, roughly 10% of null). at absolute best, this means that they have 0.5% the industrial capacity of empire. Builds everything in house Nullsec alliance 2 = holds 5 systems, import everything. Everything else, with the exception of material is exactly the same difference -- alliance 2 is 1/20th the size, has 1/20th the raw skill, etc. For every 1 ship that alliance 1 can build, alliance 2 can import 99.5. At this point, it doesn't matter if alliance 1 has 20 trillion ISK ... they simply cannot replace ships and modules near fast enough to compete long term with Alliance 2.
Stop with the "of empire" that's the flaw.
Just say "null needs more slots". That's all you need. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:36:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Yeep wrote:
Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".
Damn, even the Goons get it.
:)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:52:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Awhile back I watched this cool movie called "The Count of Monte Cristo". The newer one. With Mr. Harris (R.I.P).
There's one scene where Mercedes is talking to the soon to be Count Mondego as they wait for Dantes to show back up from a meeting with the owner of the consignment business.
In the course of the dialogue Mercedes mentions, in response to Mondego's advances (romantic) about how when Mondego and Dantes were little, Mondego (a Count's son) was given a pony for his birthday, whereas Dantes was given a whistle.
Mondego, as a little boy, was bitter and angry and envious of the fact that Dantes, a fisherman's son, was more happy with his whistle than Mondego, a Count's son, was with his pony.
Mercedes then proceeds to tell Mondego she will not be his next "whistle".
Cool story I know, but I'm getting to the point.
When you want something fixed, you want to make sure something is broken. The fact you compare it to something else unrelated (it is unrelated, highsec has different rules and lifestyles) is only being envious and greedy.
You say nullsec needs more slots, and I agree.
If you want to focus on nullsec, I'm all for it.
But for the love of god stop making yourselves look like petulant children because highsec has something you don't.
Ride your pony and forget the whistle. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13534
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:00:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Stop with the "of empire" that's the flaw. Not really, no, since it shows the scale of the problem and since it points to the fact that it's a double-sided problem: the overabundance of highsec slots is just as much of a problem as the lack of nullsec slots.
Quote:Just say "null needs more slots". That's all you need. Actually, it's not. Null also needs to be made relatively cheaper compared to high. Unfortunately, since high is free, and you can't make it cheaper than free, it means that high needs to be more expensive.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:16:00 -
[1147] - Quote
GUYS THE FLAW IN YOUR "PLAN" IS THAT IT REQUIRES AFFECTING SOMEONE NOT YOU GEEZ
- Totally not some random highsec publord "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:22:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy.
Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:26:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Stop with the "of empire" that's the flaw. Not really, no, since it shows the scale of the problem and since it points to the fact that it's a double-sided problem: the overabundance of highsec slots is just as much of a problem as the lack of nullsec slots. Quote:Just say "null needs more slots". That's all you need. Actually, it's not. Null also needs to be made relatively cheaper compared to high. Unfortunately, since high is free, and you can't make it cheaper than free, it means that high needs to be more expensive.
That implies you do not wish to be autonomous from highsec, but in direct competition.
That would be accomplished by hey, I know, stop transporting **** to sell in empire and create your own market. But that did not work did it?
Because people will do whatever they want, regardless of what you want, or think is best.
If you have people using ALL sectors of space, that's not going to be a very good platform to argue or petition to CCP to say they need to be split up.
CCP LIKES the conflict, they WANT the competition.
You only feed fuel to the fire in continuing down the same path.
Also it only shows that something is not truly in a player's control, or rather, lack the ability to control it when almost virtually everything else can be controlled.
Otherwise there is nothing wrong with someone from nullsec using highsec to make a profit. Trade hubs are not a broken mechanic, unless you are trying to say otherwise. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:28:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy. Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null.
Nullsec are the ones who consider themselves lords. Highsec denizens have to "work for the man" in regards to rules and laws and such.
I realize it may have been lost on you, and that's fine. It's not an argumentative point. You don't need to understand.
It's just really hard to convince someone "i'm only using this because not only is it the best thing to use for my gains, it's broken". "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1599
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:36:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy. Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null. Nullsec are the ones who consider themselves lords. Highsec denizens have to "work for the man" in regards to rules and laws and such. I realize it may have been lost on you, and that's fine. It's not an argumentative point. You don't need to understand. It's just really hard to convince someone "i'm only using this because not only is it the best thing to use for my gains, it's broken".
Lost on me lol.
The fact is you're wrong, and you're wrong because you fundamentally can't understand an argument that doesn't fit into your black and white nonsense world. This is the reason why you constantly find yourself arguing with a half a dozen people in every single thread you post in. Instead of the eternal circle jerk "discussion" you participate in, has it ever crossed your mind to try to understand why others think what they do (and why so many people oppose what you post time and time again)?
I'm betting the answer is no.
You are not some oracle of wisdom the rest of us "just can't get", you're a flawed thinker defending flawed logic. CCP has already said they are going to take a look at null industry, so you should just prepare yourself for it now.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7428
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:38:00 -
[1152] - Quote
The funny part is that we have an industrial team, but their focus is exclusively on supercapital production, which we've nationalized to an extent. He is right, in any case - an industrial advantage has never been decisive in any conflict in 0.0.
baltec1 wrote:Look at the date.
It isn't an April Fools' joke if that's what you're thinking. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Dave Stark
2528
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:56:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Andski wrote:It isn't an April Fools' joke if that's what you're thinking.
good to know, because i quite liked that article. Maggie Thatcher. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:30:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy. Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null. Nullsec are the ones who consider themselves lords. Highsec denizens have to "work for the man" in regards to rules and laws and such. I realize it may have been lost on you, and that's fine. It's not an argumentative point. You don't need to understand. It's just really hard to convince someone "i'm only using this because not only is it the best thing to use for my gains, it's broken". Lost on me lol. The fact is you're wrong, and you're wrong because you fundamentally can't understand an argument that doesn't fit into your black and white nonsense world. This is the reason why you constantly find yourself arguing with a half a dozen people in every single thread you post in. Instead of the eternal circle jerk "discussion" you participate in, has it ever crossed your mind to try to understand why others think what they do (and why so many people oppose what you post time and time again)? I'm betting the answer is no. You are not some oracle of wisdom the rest of us "just can't get", you're a flawed thinker defending flawed logic. CCP has already said they are going to take a look at null industry, so you should just prepare yourself for it now.
I am ok with null getting more slots. I don't understand why that's so wrong.
Telling someone you use highsec because it's more profitable for you, but you don't want to because its unfair that highsec has a better market than null is, well, ********.
Sorry you feel that way.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:06:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I am ok with null getting more slots. I don't understand why that's so wrong.
Telling someone you use highsec because it's more profitable for you, but you don't want to because its unfair that highsec has a better market than null is, well, ********.
Sorry you feel that way.
Here's what you're missing:
Even if you give null all of the industrial capability of highsec tomorrow - all of the build and research slots and refining capability, you know what you have? Highsec but with way more risk due to it being null. There would still be no reason at all to build ANYTHING short of supers in null.
That's the problem. Not just that nullsec is miles short of being capable of building for itself, but that highsec is literally perfect. Tons of slots of all kinds that are basically free to use, easy access to trade hubs, and CONCORD protection to boot. That can't be beaten, and nullsec, in theory, should be able to beat it due to the whole risk->reward thing. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:24:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I am ok with null getting more slots. I don't understand why that's so wrong.
Telling someone you use highsec because it's more profitable for you, but you don't want to because its unfair that highsec has a better market than null is, well, ********.
Sorry you feel that way. Here's what you're missing: Even if you give null all of the industrial capability of highsec tomorrow - all of the build and research slots and refining capability, you know what you have? Highsec but with way more risk due to it being null. There would still be no reason at all to build ANYTHING short of supers in null. That's the problem. Not just that nullsec is miles short of being capable of building for itself, but that highsec is literally perfect. Tons of slots of all kinds that are basically free to use, easy access to trade hubs, and CONCORD protection to boot. That can't be beaten, and nullsec, in theory, should be able to beat it due to the whole risk->reward thing.
Poor highsec. Poor Empire.
Damn those industrial superstars and market gurus ruining everyone else's fun.
Not only do you want the ability to make anything like highsec, you want to TAKE away their ability.
Stupid whistles and ponies.
Makes you wonder why you left highsec at all.
Wish also that "risk vs reward" wasn't a security blanket kneejerk reaction either though. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Ai Shun
923
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:42:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:That's the problem. Not just that nullsec is miles short of being capable of building for itself, but that highsec is literally perfect. Tons of slots of all kinds that are basically free to use, easy access to trade hubs, and CONCORD protection to boot. That can't be beaten, and nullsec, in theory, should be able to beat it due to the whole risk->reward thing.
Let's assume the number of slots are the same. (Hypothetical) Would you expect a lawless area that is war-torn, with a low population and no taxes to have better industrial capacity than a tax stable, consumer rich and safe area? I wouldn't. I see the old West. I see claim jumpers, piles of rare resources that can be exploited if it can be defended. But the infrastructure, both planetary and in-space, does not exist there yet.
Now what would be awesome is if Sov is held for a period of time and area is stable and secure it could attract colonists and become more stable and grow (Perhaps even increasing it's security status ) until it has the same capability as a secured, stable sector of space.
And wouldn't it be more awesome if that opened up further frontiers, more resources and more to do? |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:44:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Like encouraged a wormhole area to become "known" and developed into sov null.
Growth growth growth. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
State War Academy Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:51:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Null indy should be < than hi-sec. Null needs to keep its symbiotic relation with hi-sec |
Dave Stark
2531
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:02:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:Primary Me wrote:There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.
So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?
Null indy should be < than hi-sec. Null needs to keep its symbiotic relation with hi-sec
it will.
minerals. Maggie Thatcher. |
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:03:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Poor highsec. Poor Empire.
Damn those industrial superstars and market gurus ruining everyone else's fun..
So now you've reached that "troll or ********" stage. Congratulations, that's pretty much endgame for highsec posters in this thread! "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13537
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:12:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Poor highsec. Poor Empire. So you fully agree with his point, then seeing as how you couldn't address or counter any of them.
Quote:That implies you do not wish to be autonomous from highsec, but in direct competition.
That would be accomplished by hey, I know, stop transporting **** to sell in empire and create your own market. But that did not work did it? It did not (and does not) work because the game mechanics don't allow it to be accomplished that way.
Quote:CCP LIKES the conflict, they WANT the competition. Exactly. Which is why high needs to be nerfed in order to create a margin for the other parts of space to operate within.
Ai Shun wrote:Let's assume the number of slots are the same. (Hypothetical) Would you expect a lawless area that is war-torn, with a low population and no taxes to have better industrial capacity than a tax stable, consumer rich and safe area? I would expect that real-world arguments are irrelevant and that player-controlled space should offer more freedom to the players than NPC controlled space. I also expect that the different areas in the game would be balanced in terms of effort and reward.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:Null indy should be < than hi-sec. Null needs to keep its symbiotic relation with hi-sec Good news: that relationship is inherent in the way industry works, and has nothing to do with the production capacity and capability of the two regions. Null industry could be >>>GǪ>>>> high without changing the symbiosis in the slightest. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:26:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Poor highsec. Poor Empire. So you fully agree with his point, then seeing as how you couldn't address or counter any of them. I agree that it's HIS point. Not with it though. He wants what the other person has for no other reason than he doesn't have it even though he can go get it if he wanted.
Quote:That implies you do not wish to be autonomous from highsec, but in direct competition.
That would be accomplished by hey, I know, stop transporting **** to sell in empire and create your own market. But that did not work did it? It did not (and does not) work because the game mechanics don't allow it to be accomplished that way.[/quote]
So it's important to reinvent the wheel instead of doing something you think you already know and have been doing. Got it.
Quote:CCP LIKES the conflict, they WANT the competition. Exactly. Which is why high needs to be nerfed in order to create a margin for the other parts of space to operate within. [/quote]
There already is a margin. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13537
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:32:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I agree that it's HIS point. Not with it though. GǪbut you can't find any fault with it or argument against it.
Quote:So it's important to reinvent the wheel instead of doing something you think you already know and have been doing. Nope. No reinvention necessary. The wheel just have to be balanced, which is actually a fairly simple thing to do.
Quote:There already is a margin. Nope. Or wellGǪ yes, there is a margin. That margin is 0. It's not big enough to fit the other regions of space in and give them advantages to counter the advantages of highsec.
Therefore, there needs to be a non-zero margin for the other parts of space to operate within. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:35:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:[quote=Murk Paradox]Poor highsec. Poor Empire.
Damn those industrial superstars and market gurus ruining everyone else's fun..
So now you've reached that "troll or ********" stage. Congratulations, that's pretty much endgame for highsec posters in this thread!
How cute, a goon respecting his own. Atleast you didn't call me a highsec publord I suppose.
But let's not take things personally shall we? That would be too easy.
If you want what highsec has, go do it. Oh wait, you do.
You think its ok to use highsec for your own gains, attack highsec whenever you feel like, do whatever you want (and deal with the consequences) and troll and have as much fun as you can possibly have....
And you can! That's Eve.
But now the "real talk" is happening you want to react in a pouting sort of way because you want what the other person has, but you want it all to yourself.
Guess it's ok to be a bully on your terms isn't it?
Beyond that you are going to do whatever everyone has been and will be doing; run logistics and import your stuff.
While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.
It just isn't. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 21:38:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I agree that it's HIS point. Not with it though. GǪbut you can't find any fault with it or argument against it. Quote:So it's important to reinvent the wheel instead of doing something you think you already know and have been doing. Nope. No reinvention necessary. The wheel just have to be balanced, which is actually a fairly simple thing to do. Quote:There already is a margin. Nope. Or wellGǪ yes, there is a margin. That margin is 0. It's not big enough to fit the other regions of space in and give them advantages to counter the advantages of highsec. Therefore, there needs to be a non-zero margin for the other parts of space to operate within.
Don't start with 0 risk is still risk again. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:37:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:[While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.
It just isn't.
Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it. This means CCP are telling people they should spend trillions invading, developing and defending null space so they can have little more than a fruit stand when the highsec supermarket is open for business and free to use.
If you don't see a problem with that, then we're right back to the "trolling or ********" part. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Ai Shun
923
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 22:57:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Let's assume the number of slots are the same. (Hypothetical) Would you expect a lawless area that is war-torn, with a low population and no taxes to have better industrial capacity than a tax stable, consumer rich and safe area? I would expect that real-world arguments are irrelevant and that player-controlled space should offer more freedom to the players than NPC controlled space. I also expect that the different areas in the game would be balanced in terms of effort and reward.
A shame that neither yourself nor Snowaxe read a bit further. Ah well. Carry on Tippia, carry on.
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Ai Shun
923
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:00:00 -
[1169] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it.
Hence why I said:
Ai Shun wrote:Now what would be awesome is if Sov is held for a period of time and area is stable and secure it could attract colonists and become more stable and grow (Perhaps even increasing it's security status ) until it has the same capability as a secured, stable sector of space.
But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page |
Tesal
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:13:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:[While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.
It just isn't. Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it. This means CCP are telling people they should spend trillions invading, developing and defending null space so they can have little more than a fruit stand when the highsec supermarket is open for business and free to use. If you don't see a problem with that, then we're right back to the "trolling or ********" part.
Changing industry could lead to a situation where the CFC and HBC become dominant players in industry. It could make the big powers become even more entrenched and more unbalanced and instead of increasing pvp, it could reduce conflict. Nuking hi-sec and turning everything over to null could have unpredictable consequences.
Shiite proverb: The first to reason by analogy was the devil. Fruit stand analogies don't mean anything.
When there was real war in null, and there were real threats to the big powers, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. Now we get 50 page threadnaughts about it, with a lot of people believing this would help fix null. In my opinion this is a peacetime discussion and goes to show how stagnant null has become.
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 23:15:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page
No, we're not on the same page. Your idea, pie in the sky as it is, has the endpoint at literally being highsec. Why the hell would anyone bother moving to an area of space, spending trillions in conquest and development and defense, simply to end up with a pale imitation of highsec?
That's the problem with any idea that requires leaving highsec alone - it's neglecting the fact that highsec isn't just 'better' or 'safer', it's perfect. At best, any kind of buff would be attempting to compete with perfection, and that's just never going to work. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4546
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:26:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Ai Shun wrote:But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page No, we're not on the same page. Your idea, pie in the sky as it is, has the endpoint at literally being highsec. Why the hell would anyone bother moving to an area of space, spending trillions in conquest and development and defense, simply to end up with a pale imitation of highsec? That's the problem with any idea that requires leaving highsec alone - it's neglecting the fact that highsec isn't just 'better' or 'safer', it's perfect. At best, any kind of buff would be attempting to compete with perfection, and that's just never going to work. Tesal wrote:When there was real war in null, and there were real threats to the big powers, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. Now we get 50 page threadnaughts about it, with a lot of people believing this would help fix null. In my opinion this is a peacetime discussion and goes to show how stagnant null has become.
And why isn't there "real war" in null anymore? Could it be that the mechanics of war suck? That conquest for the sake of it isn't enough to make people commit to losing what they have anymore? Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1225
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:28:00 -
[1173] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore.
That part does keep happening, though. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Tesal
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 01:49:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:And why isn't there "real war" in null anymore? Could it be that the mechanics of war suck? That conquest for the sake of it isn't enough to make people commit to losing what they have anymore?
Grinding Sov used to suck when it was POS count that controlled Sov. People were constantly spamming and attacking POS during wars. The Sov grind sucking isn't something new. Alarm clock ops were invented back then. There are more HP to grind now, but there are also more caps and supercaps to grind it. People used to kill each other because they were enemies and they hated each other. That's gone. The big powers tolerate each other now. They don't act. They don't even fight proxy wars. The new end game is ganking freighters in Hi-sec. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4546
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 02:31:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore. That part does keep happening, though. Not as much as it used to. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4546
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 02:32:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Tesal wrote:They don't even fight proxy wars. That's news to me. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:52:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:[While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.
It just isn't. Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it. This means CCP are telling people they should spend trillions invading, developing and defending null space so they can have little more than a fruit stand when the highsec supermarket is open for business and free to use. If you don't see a problem with that, then we're right back to the "trolling or ********" part.
Nono I get it. It makes sense. But you must see the platform of a lot of people use for as an excuse.
I'll give you an example and use your own corp, but don't take offense.. bear with me here.
If I'm wrong on an opinion, I'm told to go learn about it and get called a publord. Awesome isn't it? My learning came from the same people who are telling me I'm wrong, and that nullsec needs more slots. Ok wait... first I agree, now I'm told I'm wrong. And I'm a publord.
Then, I have another person telling me it's because of the fact that given the market, highsec is better. Well yea. Of course it is. Nullsec is too volatile to support it.
Too much NBSI.
OOOOhhhh wait Murk, now you're being carebear and soft! (never mind the fact I don't care that gatecamps or nbsi is what it is, I mentioned it's existence therefore I'm in love with it right? /sarcasm)
So everyone who does NOT want to be blown up and make money are in highsec. And its' all CCP's fault they encouraged strife and war and bigass battles to happen in non highsec.
But wait! Nullsec is supposed to be better because of risk vs reward! And it is. Just not on a linear level. Because it doesn't work like that.
Now you do have much better and greater income streams, you can do whatever you want, you choose to leave highsec behind because you want to go your own way and now you care about highsec's market.
But that's the point. Now you don't care so much about industry. You care about the market. That's where things get interesting.
Because you strayed away from industry, now you're just using industry as an income stream. Not to make things and enjoy your element, but as a way to make money. In an area not designed to support that market. It COULD support that market, but its' inhabitants don't want it to. Nevermind the fact nullsec is "supposed" to be about empire building, when you bar your gates from everyone else, you don't have a market to the same numbers as the people who accept traders with open arms.
So opening up nullsec's industry wouold be awesome, and create a fix, not just the fix you want, regardless of the reasons you give, because ultimately you want to thrive the same way highsec does, but without having the same mechanics that do allow highsec to do what it does.
Removing that would not improve anything other than giving you a better foothold to keep your pilots from using alts in highsec to do their trading.
Don't believe me? Don't shoot me if I ever come into your area. And I promise I'll buy something from one of your stations. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
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