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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1151
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 02:07:00 -
[211] - Quote
Captain Nares wrote:Why condor isn't as "e-war resistant" as merlin? Condor is attack frigate and not a combat frigate. Ship, Sensor Strength, Lock Range Condor 9, 30km Atron 8, 25km Executioner 8, 27.5 km (which follows the Comet/Slicer btw) Slasher 7, 22.5 km
Edit: Point taken, 50km for Merlin seems out of line.
Merlin 50 km Kestrel 50 km - Missile Tristan 40km - Drone Tormentor 40 km - Drone Breacher 35 km - Missile Incursus 30 km Punisher 25 km Rifter 22.5 km |
Roza Fitzwalter
TRUE GONER Gallentium TERRA REGNUM
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 04:12:00 -
[212] - Quote
What is this? New Incursus was better than Comet and it would. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
256
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 09:47:00 -
[213] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD? As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and web?
You are wrong : a web is as much, if not more mandatory than a TD. Is web OP ? |
Roseline Penshar
Enlightened Academy
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:49:00 -
[214] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Roseline Penshar wrote:lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range Its a hybrid boat. T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff. Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more...
well.....incursus is a hybrid boat (ship that use hybrid weapon) too, why not giving it the same targeting range then?
and i don't see merlin have purpose to be a sniper, the bonus not inform it like that |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
665
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:21:00 -
[215] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD? As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and web? You are wrong : a web is as much, if not more mandatory than a TD. Is web OP ?
No because webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges
Edit: and the merlin definitely has more targeting range than it has any logical need for. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
280
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:44:00 -
[216] - Quote
How about this:
New Module
Name: Remote Electronic Damper
Hi slot module
Reduces the range of electronic warfare modules
Scripted for ECM / RSD / TD / TP / Web / Disruptor / Neut (maybe)
Short optimal (1km) Long Falloff (60km)
Short optimal and long falloff mean the module would never really be 100% effective
EAF's and Recons will have bonuses for use.
Would this help as a solid counter to EWAR
|
Kagura Nikon
Emptiness.
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:59:00 -
[217] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Commander Ted wrote:Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop? ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed .. one has a fair shake against unbonused users and know what's expected when there are bonuses landing on grid. Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD? ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!). Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's? As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said?
Ecm problem is not how effective they are. Its how IRRITATING and BORING and how it made people not want to play anymore!
This is a game, and FUN comes before REAL balance. If a mechanic is not fun (liek the old Doomsdays AOE) it must be changed. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
665
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 12:09:00 -
[218] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Commander Ted wrote:Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop? ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed .. one has a fair shake against unbonused users and know what's expected when there are bonuses landing on grid. Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD? ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!). Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's? As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Ecm problem is not how effective they are. Its how IRRITATING and BORING and how it made people not want to play anymore! This is a game, and FUN comes before REAL balance. If a mechanic is not fun (liek the old Doomsdays AOE) it must be changed.
Only real problem with ECM these days is that ECM drones are still massively broken.. Other then that its not so bad. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
566
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 12:40:00 -
[219] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:How about this:
Name: Remote Electronic Damper Hi slot module
Reduces the range of electronic warfare modules Scripted for ECM / RSD / TD / TP / Web / Disruptor / Neut (maybe)
Short optimal (1km) Long Falloff (60km)
Short optimal and long falloff mean the module would never really be 100% effective EAF's and Recons will have bonuses for use. Would this help as a solid counter to EWAR
Please, no more terrible chance-based mechanics. Are you sure you understand how falloff works? |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
248
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 13:56:00 -
[220] - Quote
Deerin wrote:What are the changes of swapping the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus on firetail?
Maybe it should have both bonuses. This would make it at least also useful for kiting tasks. The Dramiel has it (and it also has drones). It would make sense to have a falloff bonus to the firetail in addition to the tracking speed bonus. |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 14:44:00 -
[221] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.
Apple and orange in a salad. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
665
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 16:17:00 -
[222] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale. Apple and orange in a salad.
The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here.. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
416
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 16:44:00 -
[223] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale. Apple and orange in a salad. The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here.. I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
665
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 16:58:00 -
[224] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale. Apple and orange in a salad. The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here.. I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness.
Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
422
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 18:39:00 -
[225] - Quote
Honestly, the hookbill is just still head and shoulders above the other frigates. I suggest
Slicer drops a high, gets a mid. Then it can actually brawl instead of just being a one trick kiting pony. (e.g. extra mid could be a cap booster for an AAR etc, or a web etc).
Navy Comet drops the high, gets a mid or low.
Firetail is a mixed bag - can actually use the utility high since it has capless guns, or put a missile launcher there. Though it wouldn't really hurt to lose the utility high for another mid or low.
Hookbill retains its current slow layout, continues to be the wtfpwn machine it is, but the other frigates now compare in performance. Could also undo the agility/mass nerfs on the hookbill. |
Colt Blackhawk
Forced Penetration Hopeless Addiction
79
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 18:43:00 -
[226] - Quote
Yeah as long as the slicer has the 2mids it will always stay only a kiter. TBH they shouldn-¦t touch the hook and comet but buff slicer and firetail instead. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
850
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 18:49:00 -
[227] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Honestly, the hookbill is just still head and shoulders above the other frigates. I suggest
Slicer drops a high, gets a mid. Then it can actually brawl instead of just being a one trick kiting pony. (e.g. extra mid could be a cap booster for an AAR etc, or a web etc).
Navy Comet drops the high, gets a mid or low.
Firetail is a mixed bag - can actually use the utility high since it has capless guns, or put a missile launcher there. Though it wouldn't really hurt to lose the utility high for another mid or low.
Hookbill retains its current slow layout, continues to be the wtfpwn machine it is, but the other frigates now compare in performance. Could also undo the agility/mass nerfs on the hookbill.
I'm not sure but I think the firetail will beat the scram hookbill.
I'm not really sure about the comet though. An extra turret mount might be nice. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 23:10:00 -
[228] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways. Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web...
BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 23:30:00 -
[229] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways. Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web... BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ?
I do hope you don't mean TC's or TE's.. Because they aren't very effective counters :P
anyhow enough on that
Someone mentioned moving the highslot of the slicer which is something Fozzie should totally do. The slicer has absolutely NO use for that highslot what so ever, its a complete waste of space (Although having an offlined salvager is nice for when you kill a t2.. ) Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
76
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 00:20:00 -
[230] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways. Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web... BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ? I do hope you don't mean TC's or TE's.. Because they aren't very effective counters :P anyhow enough on that Someone mentioned moving the highslot of the slicer which is something Fozzie should totally do. The slicer has absolutely NO use for that highslot what so ever, its a complete waste of space (Although having an offlined salvager is nice for when you kill a t2.. )
It's also useful to spread the damage done when you overheat the rack. Other than that it's completely useless and forces an otherwise fine ship into a kiting only role. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4506
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 11:41:00 -
[231] - Quote
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. I'm going to grab a few prominent questions from the thread to answer:
Can we have the Police skin back on the Comet? I also have a special place in my heart for the old Comet skin with its flashing light. However the art direction for the game dictates that navy faction ships follow the paint scheme of their racial fleet. However I do dream of the day when we can get Comets with that skin back into your hands, and I don't think that dream is in vain.
Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles? I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.
Discussion about Merlin lockrange. I'm going to answer that question over in the other thread.
When can we start public testing these ships? The only answer I can give your right now is "As soon as possible" unfortunately. We'll keep you up to date as soon as our plans are ready to announce. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
417
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 12:05:00 -
[232] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)
Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale. Apple and orange in a salad. The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here.. I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness. Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways. Are you really suggesting that if webs had a 20% speed reduction instead of a 60% speed reduction they would dictate range just as easily? I find that ludicrous. The range of a web and the amount it reduces speed has everything to do with its ability to dictate range.
Either way, I have not complained or asked for any changes. I don't think they are OP. I merely pointed out that the ability to dictate range and speed of targets is a great benefit to certain ewar types while less important to others. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
78
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:08:00 -
[233] - Quote
I'm glad the comet got a cpu buff, quite a while after I.maxed electronics but still |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
667
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 15:03:00 -
[234] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles? I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.
The slicer isn't bad, i would never dream of calling it bad per say (Although i think both the hookbill and the comet far outperform it as kiters (Can fit td's and don't get ****** over by td's)) But you can't really deny that the high slot is basically a decoration.
But talking about the slicer.. Why is the slicer the only one where kiting with short range weapons is considered more viable for kiting than the long range one? Scorch kiting actually outdps's beam lasers up to the max point range.. =/
Rail comet is great, LML hookbill is great but a beam slicer? ******* impossible.
Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1595
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:38:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles? I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.
so, maybe a low slot? The utility high really serves no purpose on a slicer since the slicer simply does not survive any brawling longer than 15s. Sure it has a huge dps and can sometimes kill slow brawlers in time, but the ship itself is not designed for this. It has not the tracking, resistance or medium slots. Even if you build a anti-slicer slicer you don't need the high slot. People who put something into the high slot usually just do it since its empty. a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1151
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 17:53:00 -
[236] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:I'm glad the comet got a cpu buff, quite a while after I.maxed electronics but still That's ok. Go ahead and fit an extra mag stab anyways. |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:09:00 -
[237] - Quote
Another low or mid on the Slicer would be great, the spare high is useless! Don't think I've ever ended up with a fit that ever has the cpu to put something in it even if there was something that could be useful. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
418
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:37:00 -
[238] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote:Are you really suggesting that if webs had a 20% speed reduction instead of a 60% speed reduction they would dictate range just as easily? I find that ludicrous. The range of a web and the amount it reduces speed has everything to do with its ability to dictate range.
Either way, I have not complained or asked for any changes. I don't think they are OP. I merely pointed out that the ability to dictate range and speed of targets is a great benefit to certain ewar types while less important to others. Sigh... If your webs would get nerfed by 20% so would THEIR webs. It would end up being the same.. (Unless one doesn't have a web but thats irrelevant to the point i was making) Sigh all you want. The reason your argument is flawed is because you have assumed everyone fits 1 web, while I am at least considering the possibility that some people fit two and some don't fit any. My statement stands. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
64
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 20:32:00 -
[239] - Quote
I am not so sure it is a good idea to increase the lock range of these ships so much. It seems the only reason to increase lock range is to allow them to lock a target and point it using a off-grid boosted point. Wheras the short lock ranges makes for some interesting fights. For example I had 5 minute long nail biter with my AB fit comet vs a kitting maulus. The maulus was able to damp me down to around 7km. Even though I was occasionally able to slingshot him within the range of my overheated scram, I couldn't lock him. Eventually I won when he made a mistake but it was a close thing. Giving these frigates a longer lock range is supposed to do what exactly? All I can see it as a stealth boost to skirmish links which are already too powerful, and it reduces the effectiveness of sensor dampers. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 20:39:00 -
[240] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Sigh... If your webs would get nerfed by 20% so would THEIR webs. It would end up being the same.. (Unless one doesn't have a web but thats irrelevant to the point i was making) Sigh all you want. The reason your argument is flawed is because you have assumed everyone fits 1 web, while I am at least considering the possibility that some people fit two and some don't fit any. My statement stands. On top of that, you have no problem with everyone having a web (or you wouldn't consider everyone using one) but everyone using a TD is a sign that TD is OP ? |
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