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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
1
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Posted - 2013.03.25 08:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello there,
I would like to suggest to replace direct enhancement of missle damgae with an enhanced rate of fire.
I am always irritaded that the Boost is only going into one type of damage. I think this is quite odd. And how can a ship enhance a self propelled weapons damage?
I propose to enhance ROF for missle Ships. Faster Fireing Rockets is an indirect Damage boost. And it makes for game explanation easier to argument and emagine why a ship has better stats in it.
With none self propelled weapontypes like laser or projectils, you can always argument with better targeting system or better ancored weapon pods. But for rockets it does not sound possible in general.
I guess you linked the damage boost to kinetic to make Missle boats mor judgeable. However you got the same problem with Projectils. And Minmatar do not have the Problem that their bonus stats are linked to one special Weapon type.
Well at least this would I prefer. |
Sigras
Conglomo
389
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Posted - 2013.03.25 09:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
just as soon as i get blasters that can shoot EMP or explosive :P |
Dave Stark
2209
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Posted - 2013.03.25 10:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
if you don't like the drake's bonuses, fly a cyclone. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.03.25 10:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Whilst i understand what your trying to achieve, you should have a think about what CCP need to do with the game, there is good reason weapons got grouped and we are seeing more and more ships with less guns and dmg bonus' applied.
All of this is done to reduce the lag so you can better enjoy your playing experience. Missiles in particular are quite resource heavy (when compared to guns). I suggest you look up the drakes of destiny dev blogs and you might better understand why this isn't a great idea. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
36
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Posted - 2013.03.25 10:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:All of this is done to reduce the lag WHA?...... LOL. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.03.25 10:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:monkfish2345 wrote:All of this is done to reduce the lag WHA?...... LOL.
Lol that is some horrible grammar. Regardless, the reasoning is true, the more they are able to reduce individual actions the less processing needs to be done, less notifications and updates etc etc. Missiles are a particular issue because they need to be give flight paths etc. while all of this is not a massive issue when running missions or something it does not scale well.
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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
483
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:monkfish2345 wrote:All of this is done to reduce the lag WHA?...... LOL. Lol that is some horrible grammar. Regardless, the reasoning is true, the more they are able to reduce individual actions the less processing needs to be done, less notifications and updates etc etc. Missiles are a particular issue because they need to be give flight paths etc. while all of this is not a massive issue when running missions or something it does not scale well. [citation needed] |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:I suggest you look up the drakes of destiny dev blogs and you might better understand why this isn't a great idea.
Drakes of destiny part 1
Drakes of destiny part 2
edit:fixed failed links |
Prib Afuran
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
They just balanced the drake. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
483
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yeah I bet they have done nothing on the server front since 2010 to help with the lag.
Tell me more about how they removed one launcher from the Drake to help with lag, and then made the Cyclone a missile boat. |
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monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Yeah I bet they have done nothing on the server front since 2010 to help with the lag. Tell me more about how they removed one launcher from the Drake to help with lag, and then made the Cyclone a missile boat.
Regardless of what they have done, missiles have never and will never scale particularly well because their is a need for more processing to be done for them compared to guns. if you look even after all of the improvements they made then the majority of the CPU tick was still dealing with adding and removing missiles from space. what they actually changed was how this information was given to clients.
adding a new missile ship (with a launcher less) makes very little difference, a large aspect of the re balancing was to get people away from all using particular types of ships and have a more varied and balanced battlefield. the fact is that it was common to see whole fleets of only drakes, so changing them to cyclones would make little difference. 1 launcher + rof i'd guess that you'd end up causing a similar amount of load.
Edit: and yes they did add another method to combat lag, TiDi, something they would not have introduced if they could simply keep making processing savings with no consequence. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4547
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
166
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.
I thought OP was more considering it from a ingame (lore) technological perspective as well. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.
CCP Fozzie any thoughts on what impact making projectiles and hybrids have a similar profile to missiles in regard to being velocity based instead of instant hit would have on the server? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4548
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ahh from that perspective I don't really have an explanation, we have skills and module and implants that affect it as well so obviously the capsule interface has some way of affecting the way missiles in the New Eden universe do damage. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
483
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fozzie to the rescue, thanks!
Now if I only could get a word on how the Eris will look after rebalance. I want to love that ship! |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4548
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed. CCP Fozzie any thoughts on what impact making projectiles and hybrids have a similar profile to missiles in regard to being velocity based instead of instant hit would have on the server?
I can pretty safely say that the realism and gameplay benefits of that would not outweigh the time needed to change how all that code works and make it not burn down the servers. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
166
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Posted - 2013.03.25 11:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ahh from that perspective I don't really have an explanation, we have skills and module and implants that affect it as well so obviously the capsule interface has some way of affecting the way missiles in the New Eden universe do damage.
Good enough for me!
I can see the sense in inherently designing a ship to perform better against its most common threats (Guristas) by shooting damage to hit them hardest (kinetic) |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
483
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Posted - 2013.03.25 12:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
If it is a question of lore, then a bonus to missile kinetic damage may simply be the Caldari specializing in hitting ships where they know they have structural weaknesses to kinetic forces.
To explain the Hookbill with 10% general damage bonus and 20% kinetic, then those kinetic weak spots on ships are also prone to damage from regular missiles, but more so from kinetic damage.
So maybe the ship has integrated targeting systems for hitting weak kinetic spots |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2013.03.25 12:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fozzie since you're responding to stuff at the moment any thoughts on the excessive range of rockets and HAMS? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
484
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Posted - 2013.03.25 12:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
To expand on this a bit into my territory of ships, the Gallente, I think the reason for the absurdly high kinetic resists is a combination between plugging the hotspots that the Caldari try to exploit and a general added resistance to shrapnel, which I assume is the way kinetic damage is applied from missiles.
Since we don't have any "x% reduced kinetic damage from Caldari ships" but a uniform reduction from all sources of kinetic damage, i can only assume that this resistance just happened to work very well against bullets as well, since the minmatar would have no reason to try to exploit kinetic holes on Gallente ships, but rather the explosive one that they capitalize on, but the Gallente have not taken very much into consideration because the war is primarily against Caldari |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
679
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Posted - 2013.03.25 14:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.
Wouldn't increasing the missiles overall speed in some way decrease the overall server stress in larger battles with lots of missiles? and objects in space? Because faster missiles would = less time the missiles are an object in space?... The missiles travel time has always been the downside of missiles mainly, and + side always been that they always hit when in range (unless the target is moving too fast.)
But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance. Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.03.25 14:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bubanni wrote: But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance.
I think the bigger issue comes from having to create and remove them from inventories rather than what they are doing while they are out in space. so assuming they are still firing at the same rate the flight time wouldn't really have much of a effect against scaling, unless everyone was firing at the same time.
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2013.03.25 14:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Bubanni wrote: But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance.
I think the bigger issue comes from having to create and remove them from inventories rather than what they are doing while they are out in space. so assuming they are still firing at the same rate the flight time wouldn't really have much of a effect against scaling, unless everyone was firing at the same time.
indeed a better solution is to decrease the base ROF on all missiles and buff the alpha damage. Also nerf the range on rockets and HAMS especially as they have about twice the range they should which is why HAMS and torps have the same range atm. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
484
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Posted - 2013.03.25 15:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Missiles already got a sweet speed buff in the latest rework |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
86
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Posted - 2013.03.25 15:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Prib Afuran wrote:They just balanced the drake. And didn't do as good job at it as with cruisers, imo.
Harby, Myrm, Brutix, still not gonna be seen as much as Drakes. The AAR is not enough to make local armor repper bonuses worth using in multi-ship engagements, otherwise known as the vast majority of eve combat. The Cyclone will get use because of ASB. The Ferox will get use because of its resist bonus and a range bonus that can make blasters more adapatable. Ditto the Prophecy, resist bonus and drone versatility. And lastly the Hurricane is still seeing use. I confess I do not know why.
Fozzie could you show us some new usage stats since the BC rebalance? You had them for before. And it was clearly Drakes by a mile. Has that changed any?
Also, I will echo the concern over rocket and HAM range. Especially when you add new range effects for missiles on TC, TE, and TD. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
141
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Posted - 2013.03.25 19:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
I don't really get why rockets and torps need to reload so much. I can kill just about one ship with them before having to reload. With blasters or projectiles I could probably take out a whole gang before having to reload. Torps could do with smaller ammo size. My raven really wants me to carry 16 different stacks of ammo, but I can only get a couple of hundred of each type since it's so huge and expensive. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
85
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Posted - 2013.03.27 15:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Overall missiles need some love.
For example HM - in most of the cases there is no reason to use T2. Bigger dps ... but you will see it only on BS class ship. Try to hit Cruiser or BC - faction will give you bigger damage.
HAM - my luck or just some broken mechanic. Tried to use faction / t2 version to shoot elite frigates. It was HARD! , but while using HM they died after 1 - 2 racks. And yes frigates where well in range.
Cruise missles - nice range but with Tier Battle Cruisers not so important any more. DPS ... eh.
Torpedoes - useless outside bombers. Range, speed, and explosion velocity.
My biggest mistake in eve is investing skills in Missiles.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
37
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Posted - 2013.03.27 15:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Overall missiles need some love.
For example HM - in most of the cases there is no reason to use T2. Bigger dps ... but you will see it only on BS class ship. Try to hit Cruiser or BC - faction will give you bigger damage.
HAM - my luck or just some broken mechanic. Tried to use faction / t2 version to shoot elite frigates. It was HARD! , but while using HM they died after 1 - 2 racks. And yes frigates where well in range.
Cruise missles - nice range but with Tier Battle Cruisers not so important any more. DPS ... eh.
Torpedoes - useless outside bombers. Range, speed, and explosion velocity.
My biggest mistake in eve is investing skills in Missiles. Your biggest mistake is using wrong weapon after wrong targets. I don't have any issues with frigates in my Sacrilege - they pop in no time. |
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
219
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Posted - 2013.03.27 16:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.
We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.
All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).
We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.
Could you please consider giving the Drake (in fact, all single damage type bonussed ships) the same kind of halved bonus to other damage types as the Hookbill has? That would help a great deal in PvE, without making a big difference in PvP. Why active tank bonuses are bad for you |
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