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Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
1324
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote: There are , but the very notion of adding elements of chance to something is stupid . Thats why I am advocating the merging of ECM and sensor damps
There are already elements of chance in Eve. Ultimately, your chances of glancing hits, critical hits etc are worked out through dice rolls. The rolls are effected by your speed, their speed, your tracking etc... but they are still dice rolls. Even if that wasn't true chance still effects everything we do in real life and therefore affects Eve. (To clarify there is actually no such thing as chance, chance is just a metaphor used to describe the effects of factors we are unable to see or predict).
You can't eradicate chance, from a game. That is just silly. ECM is working fine as far as I can tell. I personally think it's not powerful enough any more (wait for it... ). "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
saltrock0000
Obsessive Compulsive Diasaster
78
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'd also like to add to this thread. LOGISTICS ARE OP!!!!!
Because the other day I couldn't kill a stabber in my talos when he had 3 logi friends... Logi is clearly way OP and should be nerfed re nerfed and nerfed again because of my 1 encounter with it.. and I lost!!! RAWRRRRZOOORRRRZ \'''\<(o_O)>/'''/ |
saltrock0000
Obsessive Compulsive Diasaster
78
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:I'd also like to add to this thread. LOGISTICS ARE OP!!!!!
Because the other day I couldn't kill a stabber in my talos when he had 3 logi friends... Logi is clearly way OP and should be nerfed re nerfed and nerfed again because of my 1 encounter with it.. and I lost!!! RAWRRRRZOOORRRRZ
But saltrock0000 a good logistic counter is.... oh wait no..... ECM!!!!! \'''\<(o_O)>/'''/ |
JamesCLK
294
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
The hit quality of guns is chance based. Just saying...
The issue isn't that it's chance based; it's that a successful jam is 20 seconds of agony where you can't do anything. If sensor strength reduced the length of jams, and the odds of a successful jam were dependent on user skills and range (think guns, but with a 0% jam chance beyond falloff) I suspect there wouldn't be as much of an issue. Malcanis, Mynnna and Ripard Teg for CSM 8! |
Bishop Xsi
Ecstasy Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...
Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance? |
Nova Satar
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
74
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bishop Xsi wrote:Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...
Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance?
its actually not a bad idea...
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
901
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
this is my idea for ecm:
Quote:i came up with this nifty idea where ecm no longer breaks the lock of a ship but actually helps in determining the quality of a hit!
usually the chance to hit number is rated against x which is a random number generated between 0.001 to 1.0 which determind if a. the shot hits and b. how much damage the shot will do.
so the better your ships sensor strength the less damage is done to you and i fyou have enough ecm on you your sensor strenth goes down to 0 where shots can start doing wreking damage more often and less slightly hit..
it would take alot of work but i feel it would make ecm a balanced and not op game mechanic Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Yabba Addict
Red Shift Enterprises
60
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Posted - 2013.03.28 16:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote:Bishop Xsi wrote:Never used ECM, so take what follows in that context...
Would it help if ECM prevented a ship from locking a new target, but could not break a completed target lock? Would that be a step in the direction of balance? its actually not a bad idea...
It's actually a terrible idea, ecm would be unusable in small and large scale fights. Leave it as it is, it's already seen a slight power nerf that's brought it and ecm drones back to a reasonable level |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate WHY so Seri0Us
1190
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Posted - 2013.03.28 17:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:this is my idea for ecm: Quote:i came up with this nifty idea where ecm no longer breaks the lock of a ship but actually helps in determining the quality of a hit!
Isn't that called target painting? CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
228
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Posted - 2013.03.28 17:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
This has been talked to death in F&I where it belongs.
Ivy Romanova wrote: Any introduction of chance into a game is a GAME BREAKER.
As to this, I dont think I have ever played a game that didn't involve some element of chance. Even in chess sometimes you win just because some guy sits down at the table next to you with a dog that your opponent is allergic to or because the smell of spring is distracting to your opponent. How is a game "broken" by random events?
We are made sharp by the whetstone of purity and truth that is the Empire, all due praises to her Majesty Lord of the host. The alternative to reclamation is to fall as wheat before the scythe. Amarr Victor!
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
57
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote:i will always oppose ECM, And you should be commended for taking such an impressive and firm stance. /salute
Nova Satar wrote: it takes people completely out the game which is jsut wrong. Well, no. Successful jamming prevents you from using offensive modules for 20 seconds. Will your heroic stance against ECM now crumble that you understand it doesn't log your character out of the game?
Nova Satar wrote: But until CCP start to comprehend that people do fly in gangs of 5 and less, they will never understand how crippling ECM is to pvp. See, I think that CCP does get that . . . are you saying that ECM cripples very small-gang pvp? How?
Nova Satar wrote:Yesterday i was in a 3 man BS gang, and all 3 of us were perma jammed by a Scorpion from 130km away, we all had ECCM..... Ahh, there's the example. I'm curious about your setup: what types of BS were you three flying? Any support ships? Fit for short range or long range? How much ECM? Where did you engage the Scorpion? Was he alone? Did you chose to engage, or were you attacked?
Please elaborate, it'll make your argument stronger or allow others to fairly evaluate your concerns.
Nova Satar wrote: CCPs view seems to be that on the whole its not that bad as they cant jam "everyone", but its becuase they think everyone is rocking aroudn in 30man fleets. If you have 6-7 people tops, and a falcon comes on field, you are ALL going to get jammed. End of story. Pretty sure that's not true, but I guess I honestly don't know what this CCP guy you are talking about truly thinks in his (or her!) heart of hearts. Also . . .you may be exaggerating. A lot. And probably also still thinking that the Falcon will force all of your ships to log off - remember, that's not what ECM does.
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
57
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote: Standard maxskill Geddon = 20 Sensor Strength Falcon max skill with White noise jammer = 11 Strength
There is no way in hell he will only Jam you ~50% of the time. He will Jam you 9 times out of 10, if not more! Everyone who regularly pvps will know this.
Yes, in your example the Falcon will land a jam between 90%-100% of the time. Perhaps as high as 130% of the time.
Nova Satar wrote:Currently the best counter is Damps, but when scorpions can jam you from 150km, unless you;ve filled your mids with sensor boosters, eccm and damps then theres **** all you can do. Plus you wont have any room left for a point anyway.
Also yes, it is unfair that you need to adjust your fitting to deal with long range threats. And again yes, it will take at least 5-7 damps to even touch the range on a Scorpion. Perhaps as many as 9.
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
57
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote:What so all of us can sit there jammed doing nothing? Sounds fun. Some people actually want fights, but at times its like running against a brick wall becuase of people with mindsets like yours.
Not to keep pointing these things out, but some of your problem seems to be that you have a very narrow definition of "actual fights" which seems to involve nothing more than locking up all the opposition (3-5 ships total, and all must be sitting in your optimal range), hitting F1, orbiting, and then seeing who dies first. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, that really seems like your idea of a "gudfight." (I now expect you to explain how you don't mind logistics, all other forms of EWAR, sniper ships, cloaky-probing scouts, etc., but I'll tell you now I'm going to have a really hard time believing it)
Nova Satar wrote:Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Let's face . . .what? Wow . . .
Nova Satar wrote:Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight So it's not the mechanic that bothers you, it's . . . the fact that people employ the mechanic? Or enjoy it? Or again, is this just part of your riff against ships that outrange your battleship? |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
658
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote:
Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight
No they are normally filled with people who either know what they are talking about or people who don't.
IMO the ECM mechanic perfectly fine. It's rare that a single falcon pilot will perma-jam a 3-5 man fleet. So i thing the current strength of ECM is fine.
The problem with ECM is that ECM ships operate at extreme range. If a falcon fails his jam on you, he will probably be out of your attack/lock range so he will get a second chance to jam you. I think ECM ships need to be redesigned to work at close to mid range. Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
57
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Nova Satar wrote:
Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight
No they are normally filled with people who either know what they are talking about or people who don't. IMO the ECM mechanic perfectly fine. It's rare that a single falcon pilot will perma-jam a 3-5 man fleet. So i thing the current strength of ECM is fine. The problem with ECM is that ECM ships operate at extreme range. If a falcon fails his jam on you, he will probably be out of your attack/lock range so he will get a second chance to jam you. I think ECM ships need to be redesigned to work at close to mid range.
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Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
1
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Nova Satar wrote:
Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight
No they are normally filled with people who either know what they are talking about or people who don't. IMO the ECM mechanic perfectly fine. It's rare that a single falcon pilot will perma-jam a 3-5 man fleet. So i thing the current strength of ECM is fine. The problem with ECM is that ECM ships operate at extreme range. If a falcon fails his jam on you, he will probably be out of your attack/lock range so he will get a second chance to jam you. I think ECM ships need to be redesigned to work at close to mid range.
If you want to suggest this you also need to demand an accross the board buff to all ECM ships tanks, as is they are soap bubbles.
To the OP,
ECM is not OP, however you do seem to suck.. try to suck less. Find a in game counter to your problem, maybe one of you flies something that is not a battleship.. like logi or a drone boat.. you know with probes... pilgrim comes to mind. You could have it jump through the gate 1st too and see if there is a trap. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
174
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
What the OP describes is Sensor Damping, as was pointed out multiple times.
That said, an all-or-nothing approach for ECM isn't good. Either you're useless and ineffective as an ECM pilot, or you change the game completely. There is no middle ground, no in-between.
ECM deals with target locks: locked or not. Not often mentioned is the secondary effect: the total number of targets that you can lock is reduced to zero.
Suppose ECM were adjusted. A successful jam cycle would still break your target locks. But instead of reducing the max number of targets straight to 0, the reduction is based on how successful was the jam cycle. You are still hurt , but you can re-establish the important locks up to your new max. The Falcon is still annoying to face, but it's not the end of life as we know it. The extent of your "damage" also scales inversely with your general firepower: the larger ships with lower scan res are more crippled with re-lock times than the smaller ships. But the larger ships have increased sensor strength, so they're naturally harder to jam.
Maybe if changes like this happen, we can stop adding new mandatory skills that just widen the gap between veteran and newbie.
Having said all of that, I would also like to add that I primarily fly Falcons when I can. I love reducing your offensive capability while fleet mates lock you in place with webs and scrams and other fleet mates drain your cap. Your pod is going nowhere and will not hurt anyone when we're through!
(Oh, and double-check those ECM strength numbers. Falcons can do much better than 11)
Rek Seven wrote:The problem with ECM is that ECM ships operate at extreme range. If a falcon fails his jam on you, he will probably be out of your attack/lock range so he will get a second chance to jam you. I think ECM ships need to be redesigned to work at close to mid range. Actually, if I miss all jams, I immediately cloak up as long as I'm not targeted, and then time my decloak to the jam cycle. There are VERY effective counters to long-ranged ships such as ECM boats, besides incompetence, and when those counters are on the field it's silly to expose squishy ECM ships.
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colay Starwolf
HelpMyMissioners Epsilon Shimmy Alliance
20
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
only thing i find odd about ecm is unlike other ewar it eather reduces you to 0 or does nothing. EvE is a big mmorpg ( Many Men Online Role Playing Girls) game |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3076
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Sorry, dumbest idea ever, there are mods and skills to combat ECM, if your to lazy to use them....... There are , but the very notion of adding elements of chance to something is stupid . Thats why I am advocating the merging of ECM and sensor damps
So... you don't like Gunnery skills and Modules? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3077
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Let's not forget the fact that ECM dedicated ships have enough power to permajam most any subcap even if they do fit ECCM.
Yes. One Subcap.
Lets see what happens if we replace that dedicated ship with another dedicated ship:
A Scimitar will rep close to 1000 EHP per second, enough repping power to eliminate the damaging effect of most any subcap even if they do fit Damage increasing modules. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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nubile slave
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Sorry, dumbest idea ever, there are mods and skills to combat ECM, if your to lazy to use them....... There are , but the very notion of adding elements of chance to something is stupid . Thats why I am advocating the merging of ECM and sensor damps
Odd, I thought EvE was all about taking chances?
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1234
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Actually, based on something someone else wrote:
1) Increase the power of ECM
but
2) Give a jam chance per weapon system of the target
Meaning... let's take an hypothetical examples where, say, a Drake has six heavy missile launchers and a targeting laser (this is not a fittings debate so shush). It gets hit by some ECM. Not going into details of ECM math here so...
Under current system, ECM has a chance of, say, 20% of completely knocking the Drake offline. No target locks means the Drake has no ability to attack at all.
New system: ECM has a chance of, say, 30% to knock out each of the Drake's offensive systems, rolled per item. Target remains locked but a random number of the Drake's stuff won't be able to operate for that cycle. It might be one launcher that gets jammed, it might be all of them, it might be three of them and the target painter, etc. Odds are, though, that 2/3rds of it's stuff is still going to continue working. Which 2/3rds is anyone's guess.
Thus ECM has a greater chance of working, but it has a much lower chance of causing complete paralysis. Thus is it a weapon that reduces it's victim ability without negating it outright. Live Events are neither. |
Ivy Romanova
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
856
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Ivy Romanova wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Sorry, dumbest idea ever, there are mods and skills to combat ECM, if your to lazy to use them....... There are , but the very notion of adding elements of chance to something is stupid . Thats why I am advocating the merging of ECM and sensor damps So... you don't like Gunnery skills and Modules?
I use missiles . I don't want the future of my way to be determined by arbitrary numbers . Not in a game anyway lol One for all . All for one. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote: What so all of us can sit there jammed doing nothing? Sounds fun. Some people actually want fights, but at times its like running against a brick wall becuase of people with mindsets like yours.
Lets face it, every ECM thread is jsut falcon pilots and small gang pvpers whining at each other. Its slowly get nerfed though, and i just hope it continues. I dont actually mind getting jammed, what gets me is the mindset of the ECM pilots who want to sit at range with complete immunity and think their part of a fight
yea you sit there doing nothing it's exactly what a hauler/freighter has to do when they get ganked that's part of the game either counter that **** or sit and do nothing |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
466
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:saltrock0000 wrote: I admit being perma jammed is frustrating and annoying, but there are modules (backup arrays) to pretty much make you unjamable. So maybe spare a slot and fit one if it bugs you so much? This is a stupid thing to say. While I appreciate the sentiment, there is no reason to fit ECCM past defence against ECM modules, which you may not ever encounter in a fight. It's luck as to what the enemy brings. This guy put it well, ages ago: TheBreadMuncher wrote: Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM. This completely gimps your fit, while at the same time means you've wasted a slot if you don't encounter ECM.
Let me put it this way:
Sensor dampening: You can fit a sensor booster, which also increases your scanres and lock range. Energy neutralizing: You can fit a cap booster, which will be very useful for keeping you alive in any real fight. Tracking disruption: You can web your enemy and fit more tracky ammo, both of which will mean you hit while disrupted. Target painting: Lol. Man up and take slightly more damage. Webbing: Gotta go fast. Pointing: Commit to the fight.
Then we come to ECM: ECM: Fit a gimpy module which only decreases the chance of you being locked down, not stops it, and wastes a slot because it has no other beneficial effect.
Let's not forget the fact that ECM dedicated ships have enough power to permajam most any subcap even if they do fit ECCM.
At 1-2 ships perma jammed per rook/falcon, assuming you know their shiptypes in advance so you can fit the right jammer, or have perfect fleet coordination, additionally, you are INREDIBLY fragile, and otherwise of little use.
also: Posting in a 'lets turn ECM into sensor damps' thread. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
582
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Posted - 2013.03.29 20:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:There already was a change. Four of them, in fact:
Gravimetric sensor compensation skill Magnetometric sensor compensation skill Radar sensor compensation skill LADAR sensor compensation skill
See? No extra modules required after all.
Its still chance based. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1096
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Posted - 2013.03.29 21:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:Get rid of ECM altogether. Lets have proper fleet fights where its just a mass brawl
But that would make guns a game breaker because with guns the target is either dead or its not. What we should do, after having gotten rid of ECM is make guns, IDK, somehow be not so game breaking. Maybe change guns so that the more they shoot you the slower and less functional your ship becomes.......
HTFU!...for the children! |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
243
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Posted - 2013.03.29 21:13:00 -
[58] - Quote
I wrote about an idea that changed it from a lock-breaking system to a slot-disabling system.
Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1796
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Posted - 2013.03.29 21:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
All ECM needs at this point is a range nerf. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
1
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Posted - 2013.03.30 15:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote:STOP INTEGRATING CHANCE !!!!
Why? You have yet to make a cse for why chanced based mechanics are bad. Much less why ECM needs to be overhauled. The idea you are reaponding to was bad, but not because of an element of randomness.
You are totally ignoring all the other rolls in the game and the posters who have pointed them out to you.
Back up your assertions oradmit you are just another troll. |
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