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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3249
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:20:00 -
[121] - Quote
Hmmm, a few thoughts: - The TE nerf is going to brutalize damage projection on the Talos and Tornado. I don't think that the Talos will remain workable, but the Oracle should remain ok on that front. The Tornado was never my favorite, but it'll probably remain workable if I'm in the mood for it. - The Talos's mobility nerf is pretty brutal, but it wasn't going to be viable after the TE nerf anyway. - The Tornado's mobility nerf is also pretty brutal but it had enough that it'll probably make it out alive on the strength of the dual web slot layout. At the very worst you can still use it for Arty gate camping. - The Naga wasn't useful at all because it's mobility was ******* terrible. The Oracle now has it's ******* terrible mobility, which will probably kill the Oracle for me.
I guess I probably won't fly Tier 3s anymore, but there's enough other options that I'll be fine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3249
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:22:00 -
[122] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:It's not enough. Nerf them harder, this isn't going to do anything. Do something big like dropping highslot or making them as slow as combat BCs.
Why don't you ask to just remove them from the ga---- ooooooooohhhh... well played!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1410
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:32:00 -
[123] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Hmmm, a few thoughts: - The TE nerf is going to brutalize damage projection on the Talos and Tornado. I don't think that the Talos will remain workable, but the Oracle should remain ok on that front. The Tornado was never my favorite, but it'll probably remain workable if I'm in the mood for it. - The Talos's mobility nerf is pretty brutal, but it wasn't going to be viable after the TE nerf anyway. - The Tornado's mobility nerf is also pretty brutal but it had enough that it'll probably make it out alive on the strength of the dual web slot layout. At the very worst you can still use it for Arty gate camping. - The Naga wasn't useful at all because it's mobility was ******* terrible. The Oracle now has it's ******* terrible mobility, which will probably kill the Oracle for me.
I guess I probably won't fly Tier 3s anymore, but there's enough other options that I'll be fine.
-Liang
Jesus christ man you act like the TE nerf is cutting the total range of the Talos by 33%,
Its not
Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before. |
Plukovnik
korpa pYco The Garden of Eden Creation KIt
2
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:38:00 -
[124] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:Making armor boats more agile & faster with honeycomb & no speed reduction on active armor rigs
..then nerfing Tracking Enhancers by 30%
enough with making this game for the n00bs...... stop killing solo pvp
Keep this up and it will be the WOW player base with the higher IQ
and remember this, the hardcore gamers have been around the longest & stay the longest! This casual market you're opening your game to won't have people playing for the 10years, they stay here for a few months then move on to the next latest game - do not turn your back on the old players & hardcore ones
want to know why eve lasted so long? it's because hard games (like Chess) can last a life time - dont mess that up!!
This is exactly what I feel. Buffing T1 cruisers and frigs was 1st stupid thing. They should lose one slot at least. And now nerfing attack battlecruisers? The only thing I would agree, is to: - decrease scan resolution - significantly decrease signal strenth everything else should just remain the same. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
39
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:48:00 -
[125] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:making this game for the n00bs...... stop killing solo pvp
Plukovnik wrote:This is exactly what I feel
Translation: "WHAAA CAREBEARS DONT POP FAST ENOUGH" You know what? This. |
Boris Amarr
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
After TE nerf Oracle will be full ****. If you are going to nerf TE, you should replace cap use bonus for Oracle to optimal bonus. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:56:00 -
[127] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Hmmm, a few thoughts: - The TE nerf is going to brutalize damage projection on the Talos and Tornado. I don't think that the Talos will remain workable, but the Oracle should remain ok on that front. The Tornado was never my favorite, but it'll probably remain workable if I'm in the mood for it. - The Talos's mobility nerf is pretty brutal, but it wasn't going to be viable after the TE nerf anyway. - The Tornado's mobility nerf is also pretty brutal but it had enough that it'll probably make it out alive on the strength of the dual web slot layout. At the very worst you can still use it for Arty gate camping. - The Naga wasn't useful at all because it's mobility was ******* terrible. The Oracle now has it's ******* terrible mobility, which will probably kill the Oracle for me.
I guess I probably won't fly Tier 3s anymore, but there's enough other options that I'll be fine.
-Liang Jesus christ man you act like the TE nerf is cutting the total range of the Talos by 33%, Its not Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before. EDIT: Pre Nerf Talos - 16+29 Post Nerf Talos - 15+25 Stop the presses and scrap the ship its totally fuc...oh wait. Damn thats still totally functional isn't it, oh well. Carry on crying about the sky falling. EDIT: And if you think slowing it by 50 m/s and making it align 0.4 seconds slower is brutal then theres probably no hope for you.
Liang is not on his best day. Usually he is quite able to grasp the reality (although stubornly). So much that I believe that he is trolling |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3249
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:59:00 -
[128] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before.
Grath, you've seen me post for a really long time. Can you trust me to know what I'm talking about when I actually bother to speak anymore? I'm not against the TE nerf - I'm simply stating a fact. The Talos is no longer going to be useful to me because 4km is a really big deal to the kind of kiting Talos I fly.
Quote:EDIT: And if you think slowing it by 50 m/s and making it align 0.4 seconds slower is brutal then theres probably no hope for you.
See above. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hoarr
Asgard. Exodus.
119
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:00:00 -
[129] - Quote
How in the HELL has no one brought up the change to the Oracle bonuses????
It's losing the optimal bonus for a cap bonus. WHAT IS THIS NOISE? |
Kelderos
My Little Glue Factory
0
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:08:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I approve of this product and/or service.
Can I ask why you guys seam to be nerfing scan res on all the ships you touch? I see it as making it even harder to get fights or catch people.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1410
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:09:00 -
[131] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Grath, you've seen me post for a really long time. Can you trust me to know what I'm talking about when I actually bother to speak anymore? I'm not against the TE nerf - I'm simply stating a fact. The Talos is no longer going to be useful to me because 4km is a really big deal to the kind of kiting Talos I fly.
I do, but I fail t see how this change alters the Talos at all.
Can it-
- Still fight out side web range - check
- Still fight outside scram range - check
- Still fight outside lach scram range - check
- Still fight outside heavy neut range - check
So though I do often times see your posting and generally you seem like you know what you're talking about, I'm going to need some kind of details as to how that very minor, and i mean VERY minor loss in range, and agility (you're not that good, you won't notice less than half a second, your internet connection wont notice it, your computer won't notice it, and no matter how good you think you are your reflexes won't notice it).
Seriously, tell me how and when, and why that loss of range makes that ship any less than it was, use specific examples.
If you can't provide actual examples of the Talos failing because of that range loss then you're acting like the same Chicken Little kind of poster that the rest of us are making fun of in that other thread.
EDIT: Looking at it, you were pushing 450 DPS paper DPS at 45, probably still 375 or better DPS at 50km, you're now looking at 450 paper DPS at 40km, and around 340 or better DPS at 50km.
So yea, while you normally post like you have a clue, if you can't show me how this ship fails with actual realistic examples due to that 4km range loss I'm calling shenanigans. |
Pesadel0
the muppets DARKNESS.
68
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
My poor tornado :( |
Blood Valentino
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
9
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:18:00 -
[133] - Quote
Personally, and i can speak for many others, I do not fly any of the other BC's Tier 3 only, their indtroduction made all others irrelevant, and that is the cause for most of peoples complaints, no matter how shallow it was. It eliminated the need to bring a battleship, because you can do 1000 dps in a talos, why bring a Mega Etc.
Fundamentally it was a cool idea to have these ships in the game, but in the end it made things very cheesy. I havent flown a hurricane in about a year, because after the introduction of the tornado it made the hurricane completely irrelevant and also due to the fact it was nerfed so hard it basically has no use left in the game.
I digress...T3 bc's are cool, and they made most other BC choices irrelevant. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:27:00 -
[134] - Quote
Blood Valentino wrote:Personally, and i can speak for many others, I do not fly any of the other BC's Tier 3 only, their indtroduction made all others irrelevant, and that is the cause for most of peoples complaints, no matter how shallow it was. It eliminated the need to bring a battleship, because you can do 1000 dps in a talos, why bring a Mega Etc.
Fundamentally it was a cool idea to have these ships in the game, but in the end it made things very cheesy. I havent flown a hurricane in about a year, because after the introduction of the tornado it made the hurricane completely irrelevant and also due to the fact it was nerfed so hard it basically has no use left in the game.
I digress...T3 bc's are cool, and they made most other BC choices irrelevant.
Correct. Tier 3 BC nullified an iconic class, the battleships for MOST of the possible scenarios. That means they are unhealthy for the metagame. In fact they have MORE firepower than some battleships.
I still want to see what REALISTIC scenarios you are justified into bringing a tempest instead of a tornado. Must be a scenario where the tempest is superior enough to justify at least part of its price gap, and must not be a scenario where a there are other ships specifically made to do it and able to outshine the tempest completely . |
Anaphylacti
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
5
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:34:00 -
[135] - Quote
People have to generally foam at the mouth for ship changes to be good. So they either don't realize what effect these changes are going to have on the ships or you need to do a couple more passes.
Really this change and TE change are only hurting people who are bad at eve since it makes mistakes more costly. you will definitely see who are the bads in t3 fleets when you get dropped on and half the fleet wasn't already aligned. The ship itself won't be able to compensate for bad piloting anymore.
However, I still feel they are too strong. Nerfing agility and mass is the right direction but as grath said these are always going to be preferable to other bc's in small gang because it doesn't matter how much ehp you have if you can't outrun a larger group and with cruisers being viable and t3s combination of speed+damage projection the other bcs are getting completely outclassed in this area.
p.s. torp naga never forget o7
p.s.s fix railguns pls |
Ezra Vouland
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
8
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
These changes are alright but I believe unnecessary. The largest issue is people unwilling to provide the proper counter against the tier 3 doctrines.
PS Give the myrms bandwidth back so we can use 5 heavies/sentries. <3 |
Cheng0001
Gladius Veritatis Fidelas Constans
10
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:38:00 -
[137] - Quote
Anaphylacti wrote:People have to generally foam at the mouth for ship changes to be good. So they either don't realize what effect these changes are going to have on the ships or you need to do a couple more passes.
Really this change and TE change are only hurting people who are bad at eve since it makes mistakes more costly. you will definitely see who are the bads in t3 fleets when you get dropped on and half the fleet wasn't already aligned. The ship itself won't be able to compensate for bad piloting anymore.
However, I still feel they are too strong. Nerfing agility and mass is the right direction but as grath said these are always going to be preferable to other bc's in small gang because it doesn't matter how much ehp you have if you can't outrun a larger group and with cruisers being viable and t3s combination of speed+damage projection the other bcs are getting completely outclassed in this area.
p.s. torp naga never forget o7
p.s.s fix railguns pls
Torp Naga forever. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
693
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:38:00 -
[138] - Quote
Changes are way to minor imo
Should lose some fittings, The talos tracking bonus is too much and all the other changes you made are too minor. That coupled with the fact that even if you catch the Talos and get under its guns it can launch ECM drones on you and pull range the moment lose scram.
In my honest opinion. This won't change anything. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
754
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:40:00 -
[139] - Quote
Kelderos wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I approve of this product and/or service. Can I ask why you guys seam to be nerfing scan res on all the ships you touch? I see it as making it even harder to get fights or catch people. Because these are fleet ships, not solo ships. You should have fast tackle accompanying you. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
901
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:47:00 -
[140] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before.
Grath, you've seen me post for a really long time. Can you trust me to know what I'm talking about when I actually bother to speak anymore? I'm not against the TE nerf - I'm simply stating a fact. The Talos is no longer going to be useful to me because 4km is a really big deal to the kind of kiting Talos I fly. Quote:EDIT: And if you think slowing it by 50 m/s and making it align 0.4 seconds slower is brutal then theres probably no hope for you. See above. :) -Liang
i dont get it they are not nerfing the condor... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1376
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:47:00 -
[141] - Quote
Please don't remove a turret.
I am so sick and tired of seeing ships with more visual places for turrets than the ship can ever actually fit.
Drake and Corax come to mind. All variations of the Tempest too.
Try applying a penalty instead of a bonus, like negative something percent damage.
It's so ******* annoying to my obsessiveness. Shosho Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Diplomat ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Ezra Vouland
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
8
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:55:00 -
[142] - Quote
Quote:Correct. Tier 3 BC nullified an iconic class, the battleships for MOST of the possible scenarios. That means they are unhealthy for the metagame. In fact they have MORE firepower than some battleships.
There are plenty of scenarios that battleships are used, particularly ones where you don't want to get alphaed. Alpha Maels and Rohks are still deployed regularly. Still waiting on FCs to be creative enough to use brawler style battleship fleets.
Battle ships are slow and it makes a lot of sense to not be deployed on the small scale. Tier3 BCs also die in a fire very rapidly when opposed to BS gunned similarly. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
349
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Posted - 2013.03.28 20:23:00 -
[143] - Quote
Great try - I agree strongly with Fon Revedhort and others that this change is not enough to bring this ship class into a balanced order. These ships still have way too much gank and too much speed. Other battlecruisers and shiptypes will keep to suffer without any realistic counter measures. When a DEV claims you need fleets of bombers or support ships to counter the ships something is wrong!!
The speed on the attack cruiser are still far greater than other battlecruisers even though they sport LARGE guns with more dps than most BATTLESHIPS.
About 50% more velocity than other battlecruisers? Actually even faster than some of the Combat Cruisers?
Why do these ships even need this? 5-10 ms faster than any ship of the same class should be more than enough... When people use these ships they will try to keep their distance and warp out if anything threatens them. These ships fill into a super nice sniper niche because they can warp in/out faster than battleships and doesn't cost as much. Why don't CCP build on this making them faster in warp instead of capable of outrunning most other ship classes while hammering them with insane dps?
8 Large guns and a damage bonus? Most battleships cannot even compete with that and they are still pricey, slow and takes longer to train for
The gank on these ships are far too great. If you want sheer dps these battlecruisers provide not only a better alpha but also better dps than any subcapital primary weapon system. For a cheap and fast/agile shipclass compared to battleships these ships would still provide a cheap and stable weapon platform with huge amounts of alpha and dps with only 7 guns. The ship class is so easy to bring in position and get away with that dps will have to be limited if you want a balanced ship.
The bigger signature will only help in certain situations. The lockspeed is finally fair. But the speed and dps will still be 2 very unfair attributes that hurt any destroyer, combat cruiser or combat battlecruiser unfortunate enough to run into one. I don't care how they die from massive bomb runs - If I cannot compete reasonably against Attack Battlecruisers they are NOT BALANCED!!
And seriously that drone bay on the Talos has to go. People complained about Naga outperforming the Talos with blasters and you gave the Talos a drone bay. Now everybody go around blabbing people with the Talos and when ships are too fast to run away from they spam ecm drones and get away more often than they should. If peiople used combat drones it would not be an issue, but players are smarter than the best of intentions.
Pinky |
Nolove Trader
Black Hole Cluster
0
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Posted - 2013.03.28 20:25:00 -
[144] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: its top unheated mwd speed goes from 1.6 km/s to 1.53 km/s and its prop-active align time goes from 8.2s to 8.65s.
With how EvE works, this will in most cases be no change at all. ;) |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
124
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Posted - 2013.03.28 20:52:00 -
[145] - Quote
I enjoy reading how the oracle's cap bonus is "useless." Bunch of idiots, it's probably one of the major downfalls of the oracle. lol |
Major Killz
159
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Posted - 2013.03.28 20:58:00 -
[146] - Quote
Only the Tornado when using autocannons will be really effected. The Talos will lose something like 50 - 70 effective damage per second @ 28,000m.
I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I can destroy a single attack battlecruiser in ALOT of ships. Provided I'm able to catch said ship.
P much all Tier 1 battlecruisers are able to tank a single attack battlecruiser. My issues with them are when you engage more than one. That's difficult solo, but possible.
In small scale fleet versus fleet. Not an issue properly prepared. It's only when they scale they become a serious issue and then it's really only the Naga (60k EHP w shield warfare-links & very high resistence) and armor-Oracle.
One ship that really lames people is the artillery-Tornado. I don't like that ship when it's properly used. Infact, all it takes is 2 or 3 to alpha another attack battlecruiser.
My real issue with attack battlecruisers are heavy assault cruisers. Good luck with that CCP.
- killz |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.03.28 20:59:00 -
[147] - Quote
Please do something about these pesky insta-locking - cloaking sniping tornados that are nearly impossible to catch. |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
271
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:04:00 -
[148] - Quote
I don't really fly these, but judging from the educated complaints, it seems that reducing PG by a small percentage is not such a bad idea. Forcing them to use fitting rigs or modules to fit the largest guns sounds like a good way of nerfing their overall performance. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
343
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones. kind of agree, gives talos too much advantage over other attack bcs Disagree.
Some of us still like to fly solo, and don't use attack BCs just for ganking. The Talos is the only attack BC which has any sort of defense against smaller ships which can't be hit by the large guns.
I'd like to see the other attack BCs get some sort of defense against smaller ships, too, although I'm opposed to just adding drones to every ship.
Perhaps, adding a bonus to small guns, too, so they can be used more effectively as point defense (although I admit to a dislike of sacrificing high slots just to fit the small guns)? Or maybe a new mid/low-slot point defense module that can only be used on BCs and larger ships? |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
112
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
CCP good job!
For once a small incremental change and then hopefully some time to see how it goes instead of the normal massive nerf bat that totally makes something obsolete. If it turns out its not enough, I am now confident that it will be addressed again in a wise manner, which you've shown by revisiting the T1 frigs and cruisers.
Hat's off to you.
Couple of points:
1) Please ignore the call to take the drones off the Talos. At the end of the day its mostly a solo boat and now even more so is the only BC of its class that has to fight so close to the blob. FREAKING really close now.
2) While the range nerf with the TE's doesn't appear so very much, in the ranges you want to be engaging in, which is a very tight margin, its actually a fairly big drop in DPS, looks roughly about ~ 30-40% and with that added mass this boat just got much more tricky to fight with stabbers and throraxs and everything else hauling ass after you. To be honest...we'll see. Unless you have full links and implants, maybe to much of a nerf...but I'll wait and see.
But either way, great job. |
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