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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
803
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Posted - 2013.04.07 21:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:It is only ever acceptable to question leadership if you have a better candidate to lead in mind and if the candidate has displayed that she or he would accept your support.
In a meritocracy the simplest method of doing so is to step in and do a better job yourself, of course. Well, I think the CEP have aptly demonstrated this. Hell, Pieter, if we had to keep the position of executor, I'd vote for you or Verin. I know that's not actually how it works, but it's the thought that counts, right?
I would NEVER accept that position willingly and, if I were forced to do so, I would immediately move to have the office itself declared redundant. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2403
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Posted - 2013.04.07 22:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I would NEVER accept that position willingly and, if I were forced to do so, I would immediately move to have the office itself declared redundant. Which is precisely why you're very well-qualified for it. Mane 614
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
810
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Posted - 2013.04.07 22:44:00 -
[33] - Quote
Oh. I see what you did there. |
Tatiana Yazria
Dragon Logistics
0
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Posted - 2013.04.07 23:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I would NEVER accept that position willingly and, if I were forced to do so, I would immediately move to have the office itself declared redundant.
I would certainly support you in this, Pieter. All respect, you do not strike me as "executive" material.
That said, I am curious why so few have considered the possibility that the amplification and intensification of internal divisions within the State is deliberate. The concept of 'divide and conquer' is the foundation of many military and political strategies, and has been for centuries. Whether or not people "wise up" as others have put it, is largely irrelevant. Picking off isolated opposition can be a trivial matter.
Executor Heth is a fool, not an idiot; an important distinction. However, this attempt to drive a wedge between the various opposing fronts may result in the opposite of the apparently intended effect.
/Tatiana |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
143
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Posted - 2013.04.08 00:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
To place the well-being of the people entrusted into your care above the fleeting wishes of others, regardless of their rank, is never treason. See Sue Sing |
Adel Khamez
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
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Posted - 2013.04.08 00:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:So I see the Amarrian inquisition has set up shop in The State very interesting.
The Empire does not interfere in the internal affairs of its allies.
The Caldari will decide what direction the State will take. This is not anything we Amarr have any business meddling with. When the State finishes sorting out its internal difficulties, the Empress will decide how the Empire reacts.
Hopefully we will still be allies, if God wills it.
Amarr Victor, Deus Vult
+¦+à+¦ +º+ä+à+å+¬+¦+¦+î +Ñ+¦+º +¦+º+í +º+ä+ä+ç |
BloodBird
Mixed Metaphor
121
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Posted - 2013.04.08 03:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Adel Khamez wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:So I see the Amarrian inquisition has set up shop in The State very interesting. The Empire does not interfere in the internal affairs of its allies. The Caldari will decide what direction the State will take. This is not anything we Amarr have any business meddling with. When the State finishes sorting out its internal difficulties, the Empress will decide how the Empire reacts. Hopefully we will still be allies, if God wills it.
Something tells me a similar response for the Union or the Matari Republic is not quite as politically correct.
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Adel Khamez
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
BloodBird wrote: Something tells me a similar response for the Union or the Matari Republic is not quite as politically correct.
The Republic and the Federation are not our allies. They are our enemies. I hope this makes matters clear for you. Amarr Victor, Deus Vult
+¦+à+¦ +º+ä+à+å+¬+¦+¦+î +Ñ+¦+º +¦+º+í +º+ä+ä+ç |
BloodBird
Mixed Metaphor
122
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Posted - 2013.04.08 17:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
Adel Khamez wrote:BloodBird wrote: Something tells me a similar response for the Union or the Matari Republic is not quite as politically correct.
The Republic and the Federation are not our allies. They are our enemies. I hope this makes matters clear for you.
Exactly. The State happen to be your 'allies' so "The Caldari will decide what direction the State will take. This is not anything we Amarr have any business meddling with" is a politically correct statement.
My implication was, ofc, that this is only so because of politics, and the State would be - and in the long run is still - on the same level of respect from the Amarrian Empire as the rest of the non-Imperial cluster.
"Allies" of political convenience make for untrustworthy companions at best. |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
144
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Posted - 2013.04.08 20:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
BloodBird wrote:"Allies" of political convenience make for untrustworthy companions at best.
You may want to consider applying that line of reasoning for yourself, then. A group that would attack CONCORD itself whenever it suits them would certainly think little of stabbing you in the back, either.
See Sue Sing |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
460
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Posted - 2013.04.08 20:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:BloodBird wrote:"Allies" of political convenience make for untrustworthy companions at best. You may want to consider applying that line of reasoning for yourself, then. A group that would attack CONCORD itself whenever it suits them would certainly think little of stabbing you in the back, either.
Like the Caldari State ?
Like the megacorporations that the Ammatar Mandate has so many contracts running with ? |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
658
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Posted - 2013.04.09 03:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Adel Khamez wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:So I see the Amarrian inquisition has set up shop in The State very interesting. The Empire does not interfere in the internal affairs of its allies. The Caldari will decide what direction the State will take. This is not anything we Amarr have any business meddling with. When the State finishes sorting out its internal difficulties, the Empress will decide how the Empire reacts. Hopefully we will still be allies, if God wills it.
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:So I see the Amarrian inquisition has set up shop in The State very interesting. News to us.
I apologize for not being very clear. I was not explicitly stating that the Amarrian inquisition itself was in The State, merely comparing it to the methods the State is undergoing to silence anti-provist.
And to be perfectly fair, the Amarr tend to keep to their own regarding the Federation and State. I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 10:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
I see a colorful future for Caldari Provisions in the junk bonds game if such dissident elements are allowed to continue to act as spokespeople. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
924
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Posted - 2013.04.09 10:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:I see a colorful future for Caldari Provisions in the junk bonds game if such dissident elements are allowed to continue to act as spokespeople.
It should be noted that until today, Pilot TomHorn was employed in his family business "Horn and Brothers," an industrial corporation in the New Eden Research alliance. As a former employee of Caldari Provisions myself, I would attest to CP's disassociation with the remarks of individual capsuleer pilots. ~Malcolm Khross
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 10:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Oh, Khross. Merely being snide. Contrary to popular opinion, I have a sense of humor, if a bit dry.
Interestingly though, I had overlooked his employment history, an oversight I'll take responsibility for. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
924
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:Oh, Khross. Merely being snide. Contrary to popular opinion, I have a sense of humor, if a bit dry.
No worries, I've been reliably informed that I don't have one. ~Malcolm Khross
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote: No worries, I've been reliably informed that I don't have one.
I'd rather judge that for myself sometime. Never did fully trust any research I didn't oversee first-hand.
Didn't want to give a serious response to an argument that has no merit to hold itself up with, but hey;
I encourage that at this time Caldari State citizens, regardless of their policies, to not present a face of fractionalism. Given civil unrest in the current circumstances, whilst some ideological clashes will be inevitable, I believe that it is in our best interest to work towards a co-operative outcome between the Provists and those Caldari who place their faith foremost in the authority of the CEP.
For a Caldari, his politics should never undermine his duty to the State.
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BloodBird
Mixed Metaphor
123
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:For a Caldari, his politics should never undermine his duty to the State.
Naive idea at best, is not the very concept of "the duty to the State" political?
Those who believe that the CEP is the ultimate State authority and those who seem to think that the CPD is the new, ultimate authority are still both voicing their political ideas, after all?
In short, when you have a CEP/CPD division, Human and Post-Human citizens of the State both need to decide for themselves who to hold themselves accountable to - is the good of the State served by following the directive of the CEP, or the CPD? They are by now nearly mutually exclusive.
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 11:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
BloodBird wrote: Naive idea at best...
I can certainly see how a foreigner could believe so. But I believe that my choice of words was clear for the Caldari audience they were intended for. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Hoderi's Folly
92
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Posted - 2013.04.09 12:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:I encourage that at this time Caldari State citizens, regardless of their policies, to not present a face of fractionalism. Given civil unrest in the current circumstances, whilst some ideological clashes will be inevitable, I believe that it is in our best interest to work towards a co-operative outcome between the Provists and those Caldari who place their faith foremost in the authority of the CEP.
For a Caldari, his politics should never undermine his duty to the State.
Not to be a cynic, Nikulainen-haani, but calling the conflict "idealogical" seems a little disingenuous. The CPD has already sent ships to directly engage others under CEP orders. People have died for this affair, and it is not a secret. I think that the time in which anything but a face of fractionalism can be presented until the conflict is solved has, regrettably, passed us by.
One can not be amicable to a poison that is actively harming oneself in each and every moment. It can only be expunged before any more damage is done. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
839
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Posted - 2013.04.09 12:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
BloodBird wrote:Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:For a Caldari, his politics should never undermine his duty to the State.
Naive idea at best, is not the very concept of "the duty to the State" political? Those who believe that the CEP is the ultimate State authority and those who seem to think that the CPD is the new, ultimate authority are still both voicing their political ideas, after all? In short, when you have a CEP/CPD division, Human and Post-Human citizens of the State both need to decide for themselves who to hold themselves accountable to - is the good of the State served by following the directive of the CEP, or the CPD? They are by now nearly mutually exclusive.
The State is not a government. It is not a narrow set of special interests espoused by a single person or by a small group of people. The State is not the CPD or the CEP or the CBD. The State is not Kaalakiota or Wiyrkomi or Ishukone.
The State is none of these things because it is all of these things.
From time to time each facet of the State must play it's part in shaping the ideas and culture of our people. I strongly believe that Tibus Heth had his role to play, but it seems that he has passed on his strength and now it is time for another to come, choose that which is good and safeguard it and choose that which is weak and displace it.
So, yes, people can follow both or neither of the two paths you talk about and STILL be serving the State. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 12:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Not to be a cynic, Nikulainen-haani, but calling the conflict "idealogical" seems a little disingenuous. The CPD has already sent ships to directly engage others under CEP orders. People have died for this affair, and it is not a secret. I think that the time in which anything but a face of fractionalism can be presented until the conflict is solved has, regrettably, passed us by.
One can not be amicable to a poison that is actively harming oneself in each and every moment. It can only be expunged before any more damage is done.
No, you are a cynic and you are free to be so. Disingenuous? Yeah, it is. Am I aware of the death toll? Absolutely. Do I agree with you? Certainly not. Do I find your use of metaphor trite? Definitely.
Many more people will die in a full-scale civil war. You're probably right that it has already begun, that we can't prevent it, but we are not too late to limit the damage it causes.
...
Also, Pieter, very apt. I'm happy to be proven right that a Caldari reader would understand my Caldari sentiment. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Hoderi's Folly
92
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:No, you are a cynic and you are free to be so. Disingenuous? Yeah, it is. Am I aware of the death toll? Absolutely. Do I agree with you? Certainly not. Do I find your use of metaphor trite? Definitely.
Many more people will die in a full-scale civil war. You're probably right that it has already begun, that we can't prevent it, but we are not too late to limit the damage it causes.
...
Also, Pieter, very apt. I'm happy to be proven right that a Caldari reader would understand my Caldari sentiment.
My apologies, Nikulainen-haani. I have obviously offended you.
I'm sorry that you found my metaphor trite. I will admit it was perhaps a little heavy handed. However, if you will pardon me for being a little direct in clarifying: Acceptance for the actions of the CPD will at this point, in my opinion, do us more harm then good. It has become an utterly destructive political entity, in both a figuritive and a quite literal sense. It, and Tibus Heth in paticular, have harmed the State in more ways then I can count.
That does not mean that I'm saying it should be fought with violent means - Far from it. I am utterly in support of the CEP deconstructing it's power through diplomatic and political channels, and I pray that it does not come to large scale armed conflict.
However, I do not think it should persist as an entity though "co-operative" means, as you put it. It must come to an end.
I'm going to hope you aren't implying anything in your compliment towards Tuulinen-haan, by the way. Or at least, nothing that doesn't extend beyond me personally.
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
131
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Posted - 2013.04.09 14:07:00 -
[54] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:My apologies, Nikulainen-haani. I have obviously offended you...
Then perhaps I have not been concise and clear enough.
You have not offended me. Your metaphor was not heavy-handed, just misappropriated.
All I advocate is progressive diplomacy, not complacency. Obviously I have not explained myself sufficiently. My apologies.
And Pilot Tuulinen's comment for which I complimented him was directed at Pilot Bloodbird, Miss Ikiryo. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Hoderi's Folly
92
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Posted - 2013.04.09 14:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:Then perhaps I have not been concise and clear enough.
You have not offended me. Your metaphor was not heavy-handed, just misappropriated.
All I advocate is progressive diplomacy, not complacency. Obviously I have not explained myself sufficiently. My apologies.
And Pilot Tuulinen's comment for which I complimented him was directed at Pilot Bloodbird, Miss Ikiryo.
Ahh-- I apologize again for misunderstanding, then.
I probably shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. This affair obviously has everyones blood running hot, my own included. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
131
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Posted - 2013.04.09 14:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Don't worry about it. From what I've heard of you I'm not even sure you're capable of hurting feelings. |
Alesius Lerance
Worlds Without Boundaries
8
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Posted - 2013.04.09 14:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
For your information TomHorn, only two of the eight Megacorporations are owned and run by families. Whilst it is true that often children will inherit their parent's profession, you will often find men and women who, by their own merits, achieved greatness. The Gallente cannot hope to win any conflict against us. If they choose diplomacy, they must let us keep our homeworld. If they choose to move to full scale war they will either be blown away like blossom on the breeze or they will lose heart and retreat when they see women and children fighting to resist their Libertine, democratic evils. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
852
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Posted - 2013.04.09 20:56:00 -
[58] - Quote
Alesius Lerance wrote:For your information TomHorn, only two of the eight Megacorporations are owned and run by families. Whilst it is true that often children will inherit their parent's profession, you will often find men and women who, by their own merits, achieved greatness. The Gallente cannot hope to win any conflict against us. If they choose diplomacy, they must let us keep our homeworld. If they choose to move to full scale war they will either be blown away like blossom on the breeze or they will lose heart and retreat when they see women and children fighting to resist their Libertine, democratic evils.
It is hardly rare to find a woman on the front line, these days, haan. |
BloodBird
Mixed Metaphor
123
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Posted - 2013.04.09 22:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alesius Lerance wrote:For your information TomHorn, only two of the eight Megacorporations are owned and run by families. Whilst it is true that often children will inherit their parent's profession, you will often find men and women who, by their own merits, achieved greatness. The Gallente cannot hope to win any conflict against us. If they choose diplomacy, they must let us keep our homeworld. If they choose to move to full scale war they will either be blown away like blossom on the breeze or they will lose heart and retreat when they see women and children fighting to resist their Libertine, democratic evils.
Pitiful, ignorant wretch. I was hoping that with Heth's support waning and his reality-defying beliefs and rhetoric losing popularity, even by a little bit, we would see less of this shallow bravado and ill-informed boasts.
Well, less does not eliminate all, now does it? |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
91
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Posted - 2013.04.10 00:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
That's-- hm. Interesting.
Lerance-haan, I wonder: do we strive to serve and to defend the State, or to destroy the State's enemies?
It is very easy to think these the same things. However, this is not necessarily so; the State can be strengthened by close ties with those we'd consider our enemies, engaging them economically, demonstrating through honorable dealings the value of our way of life.
Do not make Heth's mistake. |
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