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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
24
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:20:00 -
[241] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Question "what is it about ISK that makes ...." towards carebear is like "what is it about KILLS that makes ..." towards pirate.
hmmm "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?" |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
542
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:23:00 -
[242] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:this is carebear point: you spend some time on mission. If you haven't got any profit - you lost.
Using pirate language: you spend some hours roaming and returned without any fights. This is lost.
Question "what is it about ISK that makes ...." towards carebear is like "what is it about KILLS that makes ..." towards pirate. QFT.
The problem, I think, is that someone that accepts PVP as the only way to enjoy and have fun in Eve won't understand that there are players that enjoy doing missions, mining, exploring, etc.
As you point out, a (pure) mission runner is in lo sec to run missions. Interrupting his missions has already defeated his purpose for being there in the first place.
I use the word "pure" because there will be other types of mission runners, such as those looking to add a bit of more danger to their playstyle. For these guys the extra risk and excitement is worth the loss in profits. They won't mind being constantly interrupted. But, I suspect these players may already be in lo sec, in which case the OP again, accomplishes at best, minimal to no results.
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Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
37
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:40:00 -
[243] - Quote
Have no fear.
CCP (or some subset within the corp) is intent on wrecking high sec income. Expect some kind of nerf to mission-running announced at Fanfest or slipped into the patch notes before June 4th.
What it will be is up in the air. Could be new taxes on mission runners, could be a reduction in bounties, could be a big nerf in loot drops (again).
I am betting on the loot drops getting hammered even more than they were last year, plus refining taxes and loss of 100% high sec refine. The last one hits all of high sec, which is why I expect to see that one put in place. |
Le Badass
Zealots of Bob
69
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:48:00 -
[244] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:The funny thing is that it's not even that simple to tackle a mission runner in a dead space room. the funny thing is: you don't need to tackle, kill or anything carebear. You just need to make his mission impossible to complete and you win. Scan him and visit in his mission -> he warps away wait for him to return visit him in his mission -> he warps away repeat this a couple of times and you killed all profit from mission. You didn't kill carebear (it matters to you) but you killed his profit (it matters to him). And carebear has nothing to protect himself from killing his profit by pirates. Which is plain stupid
Oh God... |
Random Majere
Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda
66
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:54:00 -
[245] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:The funny thing is that it's not even that simple to tackle a mission runner in a dead space room. the funny thing is: you don't need to tackle, kill or anything carebear. You just need to make his mission impossible to complete and you win. Scan him and visit in his mission -> he warps away wait for him to return visit him in his mission -> he warps away repeat this a couple of times and you killed all profit from mission. You didn't kill carebear (it matters to you) but you killed his profit (it matters to him). And carebear has nothing to protect himself from killing his profit by pirates. Which is plain stupid
And if the missioner comes back with a PvP fitted ship...do you warp away?
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
631
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Posted - 2013.04.17 15:58:00 -
[246] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote:March rabbit wrote:Question "what is it about ISK that makes ...." towards carebear is like "what is it about KILLS that makes ..." towards pirate. hmmm nice movie for little children never watched tho. maybe i should show it to my 7 yo daughter?
Moneta Curran wrote:"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?" haven't got your point here tho. explain a little? |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
372
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:03:00 -
[247] - Quote
As a highsec solo player I'd have no reason to own, or skill for battleships if level 4 missions were moved to lowsec. I think that would take a huge chunk out of the game for me. I probably would quit at that point. Level 4's provide just enough variety on top of industry to make highsec worth sticking around for. Tried the nullsec lifestyle a few years ago and hated it....and I imagine there are many pilots like me around. Shrug.
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
631
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:13:00 -
[248] - Quote
Random Majere wrote:And if the missioner comes back with a PvP fitted ship...do you warp away? me? i call my mates and we kill him with our gang. Because 99% of mission runners are in NPC corp and have no friends (another "fact" from forums) it will be easy
or i drop a cyno....
Anyway: pirate has initiative in this situation. Not carebear
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Kangaax
I ain't got me ground legs yet
0
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:16:00 -
[249] - Quote
Since it seems pirates created yet another "more free targets in lowsec pls", i will suggest another thing: What about in lowsec, the police still spawns in a delay relative to the security status of the system up to 1 minute, BUT make it faction police and not CONCORD. This way you could get away even after a police intervention, and it balances the risk for pirates when you get jumped on - because they all talk about risk vs reward, but it's so risky jumping a PVE ship it makes my head spin. Basically, you get a 30s-1min timer after aggressing someone before you have to run. This way moving lvl4 missions to lowsec would not end up in noone doing them anymore. Deal? |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3443
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:17:00 -
[250] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Random Majere wrote:And if the missioner comes back with a PvP fitted ship...do you warp away? me? i call my mates and we kill him with our gang. Because 99% of mission runners are in NPC corp and have no friends (another "fact" from forums) it will be easy or i drop a cyno.... Anyway: pirate has initiative in this situation. Not carebear Wow. You are so brave.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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Random Majere
Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda
66
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:23:00 -
[251] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Random Majere wrote:And if the missioner comes back with a PvP fitted ship...do you warp away? me? i call my mates and we kill him with our gang. Because 99% of mission runners are in NPC corp and have no friends (another "fact" from forums) it will be easy or i drop a cyno.... Anyway: pirate has initiative in this situation. Not carebear
You drop a cyno in high sec? I guess your talking about mission runners in low and NPC null then.
Also, why would you not solo the guy? Are you afraid of being in a 1 vs 1? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3995
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:39:00 -
[252] - Quote
Mei Sui wrote:Ready the flamethrowers, but I think it's time to consider moving the level 4 agents to low sec.
One of the key tenants of the EVE universe has been the risk to reward scale going from hi-sec to low-sec to null-sec
This does not apply, neither to RL nor to EvE, that tries imitating some "realism flavour" (the famous "EvE is real!" motto).
So, no, you are wrong since the premise and thus your whole argument is invalidated.
Moreover, making EvE as linear, predictable and canned as WoW (i.e. canned progression, canned rewards etc.) is certainly not an EvE way to implement a MMO.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
631
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Posted - 2013.04.17 16:44:00 -
[253] - Quote
Random Majere wrote:March rabbit wrote:Random Majere wrote:And if the missioner comes back with a PvP fitted ship...do you warp away? me? i call my mates and we kill him with our gang. Because 99% of mission runners are in NPC corp and have no friends (another "fact" from forums) it will be easy or i drop a cyno.... Anyway: pirate has initiative in this situation. Not carebear You drop a cyno in high sec? I guess your talking about mission runners in low and NPC null then. i would advice you to read few first posts of this thread at least read thread topic
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Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
24
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Posted - 2013.04.17 17:04:00 -
[254] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:March rabbit wrote:Question "what is it about ISK that makes ...." towards carebear is like "what is it about KILLS that makes ..." towards pirate. hmmm nice movie for little children never watched tho. maybe i should show it to my 7 yo daughter? Moneta Curran wrote:"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?" haven't got your point here tho. explain a little?
It is a nice one, I was around her age when it came out. My point is that with motives so directly at odds with each other, there's never going to be a middle ground here.
Consider that those who do engage in PvP have chosen not to limit their adventures to the 'challenge' of defeating predictable NPCs in forever repeating scenario's.. they can do all that and more. Even if we can recognize that it is relaxing and carefree, it's not very.. respectable.. to forever hide behind CONCORD.
edit: it's sorta like staying at home masturbating vs. going out and trying to get laid. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
631
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 17:17:00 -
[255] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote: My point is that with motives so directly at odds with each other, there's never going to be a middle ground here.
well. it worked in RL (times of sea pirates and Columb). How did it work? Just few my ideas: - big reward: one succeeded trip makes you crazy rich, you don't need to make another trip (Eve Online: 1 lvl4 makes you 25-30millions for 1-2 hours. You need to have 200 millions BS to complete it) - big ocean, you can move for a days without any contacts if you are lucky (Eve Online: you entered local, everybody noticed it, 1 cycle of d-scan - your ship already known, a couple of seconds and your mission area is pinpointed and ready to warp to) - dangers: all ships deal with the same dangers - ocean, wind, other people. No bears and no PvPers there. (Eve Online: PvE missions need completely different fits than useful for PvP) - maybe something?
Looks like we have had these factors in Eve Online some years ago. But now....
I think there is nothing impossible to implement here.
Moneta Curran wrote:... respectable.. i fear that this word is not known in Eve Online these days |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
24
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Posted - 2013.04.17 17:25:00 -
[256] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:... respectable.. i fear that this word is not known in Eve Online these days
Nah.. that's not true.. it's what makes people set each other blue. You show some teeth and you are recognized for it.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
1506
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Posted - 2013.04.17 19:25:00 -
[257] - Quote
Anunzi wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
[...] The fix to PvE is better PvE, not PvP. There is no way to force into PvP someone not willing to. They will rather quit than play your way. [...]
I think a solution to lot of EvEGÇÖs issues from my perspective would be to make pve play more like pvp. Its something that has always baffled me about EvE, why should the same hull require a completely different setup to fight ships controlled by players and ships controlled by npcs. When you really think about it, it makes very little sense. That way ratters/mission runners/explorers would not be at a inherent disadvantage against pvp fit ships.
Well, at one point, I suggested something like that. Add new agents that led to mission that required a PvP-like fit to succeed.
Regretfully, CCP read that their way and the last we knew was a hint that maybe ALL PvE would be changed to require PvP -like fits, through AI changes. It would be very typical for CCP to destroy PvE fits in the assumption that someone who invested months, endless hours and several billions in one of those fits, won't object to have al that scrapped because CCP "knows better".
What really pisses me off, is how certain play styles are considered, not "underdeveloped" or "abandoned for years" or "ugly ducklings", but "wrong" and thus must be "corrected" and become like "cool" gameplay... The Greater Fool Bar-áis now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden!-áIngame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
45
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Posted - 2013.04.17 23:38:00 -
[258] - Quote
Make mission runners easier to hunt and kill too please. Scanning them with probes is hard. |
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
174
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Posted - 2013.04.17 23:50:00 -
[259] - Quote
This discussion has been going on for years.
All i see is a bunch of losec bums wanting losec to be buffed/hisec being nerfed and hisec bears wanting things to stay as is.
give losec more content and leave this whole l4 missioncatastrophe in hisec. they like it. Everybody saying l4 mission should be moved to losec is a bear and should be in hisec.
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Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
201
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Posted - 2013.04.18 00:28:00 -
[260] - Quote
I would go to lowsec if there was anything worth the risk, L4 as they are, are not worth the risk. |
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iskflakes
404
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Posted - 2013.04.18 00:36:00 -
[261] - Quote
This is a very good idea. - |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2623
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Posted - 2013.04.18 01:03:00 -
[262] - Quote
Kangaax wrote:Since it seems pirates created yet another "more free targets in lowsec pls", i will suggest another thing: What about in lowsec, the police still spawns in a delay relative to the security status of the system up to 1 minute, BUT make it faction police and not CONCORD. This way you could get away even after a police intervention, and it balances the risk for pirates when you get jumped on - because they all talk about risk vs reward, but it's so risky jumping a PVE ship it makes my head spin. Basically, you get a 30s-1min timer after aggressing someone before you have to run. This way moving lvl4 missions to lowsec would not end up in noone doing them anymore. Deal?
This would be interesting. I can imagine a chance for escape but not a I WIN button for the mission runner, while throwing in occasional officer spawn on that faction police spawn could mean more loot for the lowsec crowd.
I would also manage the response time more around the standings of the mission runner and where the mission runner is. If someone with high Gallente faction goes into Amarr lowsec where he has low Amarr faction standings, he's on his own. If he goes to Gallente lowsec he's got a chance of aid based on that faction standing.
The higher the faction standing the faster the response AND/OR the better the spawn. This is a seesaw really: a high standing meaning a fast response means that researching the target in local could decide if the pirate team can handle it, but if the size of the response is also improved (more chance of officer spawn) then the offending side could also gauge more reward for the additional risk. The ship they are targeting could also be a factor - is your target in brutally tanked ship that could last long enough for help to arrive or is it merely a T1 cruiser that will go pop under a few Thrashers?
But it would also be prudent for there to be faction standings losses for every time they gotta send the Navy to go rescue your ass so it's not abused.
I think that kind of compromise would make lowsec stop being a garanteed loss and increase the action in lowsec along with potential for more loot.
Still, since it's not in the paradigm of total ship raep masquerading as PVP, nobody would support such an idea. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
24
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Posted - 2013.04.18 01:29:00 -
[263] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Still, since it's not in the paradigm of total ship raep masquerading as PVP, nobody would support such an idea.
So this intervention force would swoop down to save you upon any act of aggression?
.. and you want this pet NPC patrol to become stronger the more dedicated a carebear you have been in past ages? I am sure newbies everywhere will applaud the idea of having even less of a fighting chance.
TBH the whole idea sucks, you are basically advocating bringing CONCORD to low sec. I suppose the concept of having to fend for yourself is just too alien to consider... |
MrDiao
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
15
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Posted - 2013.04.18 11:37:00 -
[264] - Quote
Typically a troll op followed by loads of off-topic debates.
Moving lv5 to low-sec has not changed much on carebears, the same as lv4s.
If op really believes that anyone in ccp would consider things in this way, either you are terribly underestimate ccp staff's intelligence or they appeared to you that they are stupid as such. |
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
352
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Posted - 2013.04.18 11:47:00 -
[265] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Tara Read wrote: I was merely stating that HS dwellers NEED to learn very basic elementary mechanics such as: 1. watching local. 2. turning on active hardeners etc. Gankers scan ships so if they see a well defended target likely they will pass it up and go for another. 3. being pre aligned to a celestial or station. 4. use D scan. These are very basic yet powerful tools a player can use to protect themselves. However you can't do that if you are afk.... Doing those things is not the problem. The problem is that if we go to low sec to run a mission, someone (or group) will show up to hunt us, forcing us to jump safe to safe for 5 minutes waiting for the aggression timer to go away so we can log off safely, waiting for the hunter to get bored and move on, so we can come back. All that "down time" from guns on red + DESTROIES the profitability. Move L4s to low sec, and you simply reduce the profitability of L4s to less than that of L3s in high sec without all the down time. Null has the same problem. Sure, if local is blue, Null can be more profitable than high sec. Unfortunately, one cloaky camper, and the system is totally shut down. If I spend 75% of my time logged off, docked up, or sitting in the POS shield because of a single cloaky camper... well... there is nothing you can do to "balance" of high sec vs. null sec profit that makes null profitable enough to compensate for the fact that one cloaky camper can shut down an entire solar system. Rock, Paper, Scissors works as a game because for every strategy, there is a counter. Rock, Paper, Scissors, Nuke Bomb... not so effective as a game. Cloaky camper = nuke bomb. There is no strategy to counter it, other than to not play when a cloaky camper show up.... or, as I've done... just move back to high sec.
Again I never stated moving Level 4's to low sec and as far as profitability it's there with level 5's you just need to blitz them correctly. Like I stated earlier risk vs reward. The main problem is the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk which is partly low sec's problem.
Without a desire to go to low sec with content, it creates stagnation. That's my main gripe not moving missions and choking peoples ability to earn a profit in Eve. All i desire is more content for all. That isn't too much to ask is it?
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Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
352
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Posted - 2013.04.18 11:49:00 -
[266] - Quote
Princess Missie wrote:tara read still talking ****
Umm not really. If half the high sec players would just watch local and use D scan alot of ganks would probably be avoided.
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Radamant Nemess
Caribbean Coke Enterprises
20
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Posted - 2013.04.18 12:06:00 -
[267] - Quote
Yeah wise*ss, move them to lowsec and eve loses several thousand players.. i can fail at any speed you like |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
89
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Posted - 2013.04.18 12:23:00 -
[268] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:... If half the high sec players would just watch local...
In Highsec? I leave station in Highsec and there are +80 people in local. During the next 30 minutes 10-20 will leave and another 10-20 will enter.... 95% of whom are set neutral. What does this do for me? Sure if someone is 'flashy' there is a situation somewhere, but this is usually after the fact.
In 0.0 or lowsec local gives me immediate intel... 'Blue' = good, 'Red' = bad, 'neutral' = bad waiting to happen. In highsec this is not the case. Local is a very weak tool in highsec... that doesn't mean I don't watch it, but it is massively weaker tool in highsec. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 12:39:00 -
[269] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:... Like I stated earlier risk vs reward. The main problem is the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk which is partly low sec's problem. Without a desire to go to low sec with content, it creates stagnation. That's my main gripe not ...
I agree with this. However,... (you knew that was coming)... L4s are the wrong way to go. Moving L5s was extremely stupid also.
You start at the other end of the equation: in tutorial or L1s. In L1s after 10 missions offer an optional bonus mission: high ISK reward and little no ISK risk to lowsec. If accepted, put the L1 player in a T1 frigate and give them a mission into lowssec to do something. Should they be destroyed (and they will often), the L1 runner will have lost nothing. (make sure implants are protected). Risk of being destroyed high, payout high, actual ISK loss at stake for the new player,,, nothing.
Teach new players who are interested that losing a ship isn't the end of the world. Show them that lowsec while dangerous can be managed/enjoyed. A 1M ISK reward to drop of a piece of paper to a level 1 runner is huge, especially if their risk is nothing.
No one is force to do it.... many will try... some will like it.
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Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
25
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Posted - 2013.04.18 12:40:00 -
[270] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Local is a very weak tool in highsec... that doesn't mean I don't watch it, but it is massively weaker tool in highsec.
I'm pretty sure he meant whenever they venture into low sec. Still, you could also reconfigure your overview?
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