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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |

HazeInADaze
The Tuskers
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 13:42:00 -
[781] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Or the simple solution as people keep on suggesting is to have ships resist the incoming reps from logi's the higher their resists the less they benefit from reps.
That isn't a simple solution and it doesn't make any sense. It makes the trade off between reps and buffer obsolete in logi situations. |

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
130
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 13:56:00 -
[782] - Quote
The math is what trouble me.
When the dev's claim that resist bonuses outperform local rep bonuses I always think 'what's wrong with that they should do'.
By making a bonus equal the devs are actually removing choice from the game. If local rep modules vs resists equate to exactly the same where is the choice? Mathematically we're all equal! Once again it doesn't matter how we fit our ships if we slap on plates or extenders in lieu of a stacking mods to get better resists our individual choices amount to nothing, no edge whatsoever.
This is very frustrating in a game where you live or die by the edge that you create. Given that reppers and shield boosters use cap I think they should actually be more powerful, 10% per level like the recently nerfed incursus seems fine. It's a good and fair trade off in the sense that I am willing to trade cap for a powerful edge in bonus hitpoints that combined with my skills I can craft into a valuable defence.
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
130
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 13:57:00 -
[783] - Quote
HazeInADaze wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Or the simple solution as people keep on suggesting is to have ships resist the incoming reps from logi's the higher their resists the less they benefit from reps. That isn't a simple solution and it doesn't make any sense. It makes the trade off between reps and buffer obsolete in logi situations.
but if you check the math in Fozzies initial post, this is exactly what he is doing, which is why I do not support it. |

HazeInADaze
The Tuskers
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 14:16:00 -
[784] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:HazeInADaze wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Or the simple solution as people keep on suggesting is to have ships resist the incoming reps from logi's the higher their resists the less they benefit from reps. That isn't a simple solution and it doesn't make any sense. It makes the trade off between reps and buffer obsolete in logi situations. but if you check the math in Fozzies initial post, this is exactly what he is doing, which is why I do not support it.
As I understand it, he is saying that in logi-fleet situations these ships are just so much better that there really is no option for other pilots. And I would agree. For some ships, this bonus is just too good. For others, this bonus is all it has.
The problem for me is that the resists are useful always, and the rep bonus is rarely useful outside of pve and small gangs.
And buffing the rep bonus ships will just compound the problem, so that isn't an option. |

Hagika
LEGI0N
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:20:00 -
[785] - Quote
More than likely the reason we arent hearing from them is because, when a bunch of people tell someone their idea is bad and not to it, its common reaction to spite them and do exactly that.
If they actually cared, they would see this is a mistake and with all the other things they put on their plate, along with new ships we dont need, yet have a bunch of issues they are ignoring.
Its pretty safe to say, they dont care.
There has been no feedback on most topics. Chances are they are set in what they want to do regardless of how bad an idea or how a change will not fix something.
Do look at previous track records. |

Pathogen Ascention
Hagukure Disturbed Acquaintance
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:27:00 -
[786] - Quote
Hagika wrote:More than likely the reason we arent hearing from them is because, when a bunch of people tell someone their idea is bad and not to it, its common reaction to spite them and do exactly that.
If they actually cared, they would see this is a mistake and with all the other things they put on their plate, along with new ships we dont need, yet have a bunch of issues they are ignoring.
Its pretty safe to say, they dont care.
There has been no feedback on most topics. Chances are they are set in what they want to do regardless of how bad an idea or how a change will not fix something.
Do look at previous track records.
Unfortunately, this is most likely the case. I hope we're wrong. |

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
130
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:34:00 -
[787] - Quote
Well it is getting late in the day, we have a month to go so it's unlikely any changes will be made now, rip amarr and caldari, all because fozzie likes burst tanking... |

Nometh Xergent
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 06:10:00 -
[788] - Quote
Im a kind of a new player so i dont really know about resists generally when its great or bad. Myself, i dont see any reason to kick down so much resists. I dont understand what they are suffering from. (The ships) With great responsibility comes great DPS.-á |

Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 08:53:00 -
[789] - Quote
To me... it all has to do with PLEX.
Back when CCP decided to implement Walking in Station and wanted to start microtransactions... Most of the player base rebelled, CCP lost alot of customers... and alot of money.
Now of course, they still want to make the money they planned to make then. They are just doing it with PLEX. The changes they are making to all ships and even to a small degree the resist nerf, are ment to drive the base prices up... again.
Since they nerfed almost any way to make decent ISK (unless of course you play insane amounts of time). All decent mission ships have been nerfed, all decent anoms and sigs have been nerfed, moon mining is getting a change (not sure the changes there).
Anyway, prices go up, income goes down, so... buy a PLEX to get by.
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Nometh Xergent
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 08:59:00 -
[790] - Quote
I dont really think PLEX is an issue. I dont have LOTS of Isk, but 500 m is kind of easy to get up too. (imo) The only race i think that has maybe to much resists is the Caldari. With great responsibility comes great DPS.-á |

John 1135
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 09:14:00 -
[791] - Quote
So putting an argument
R = CCP's concern is really RR: so CCP should nerf RR rather than resists
What is a solid counter-argument to R? Is the concern really RR? Can RR be fixed without nerfing resists? What about active repping? |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1359
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:30:00 -
[792] - Quote
John 1135 wrote:What is a solid counter-argument to R? The solid counter argument to R:
R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space.
Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:52:00 -
[793] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:John 1135 wrote:What is a solid counter-argument to R? The solid counter argument to R: R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space. Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping.
That would be at all appropriate, were it not for the overwhelming evidence that SR is a waste of a bonus anyway. R is useful at all levels of play. SR is in an inherently weak bonus with no scalability. No one should care if R crowds SR, because SR is a nigh worthless, PvE bonus anyway.
Get your PvE out of my PvP, and stop ruining what I have, just because you aren't satisfied with what you have.
Robbing the rich and burning the money just makes the poor people feel better by comparison.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |

Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 19:03:00 -
[794] - Quote
So wait.
Problem: Resist ships are significantly better in fleets than local rep ships because resists give an indirect bonus to incoming logi while local reps don't.
Blatantly obvious solution: Change the local rep bonus to include a bonus to incoming logi as well. 7.5% per level to local reps and 5% per level to incoming remote reps, perhaps? |

Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
226
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 21:55:00 -
[795] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:So wait.
Problem: Resist ships are significantly better in fleets than local rep ships because resists give an indirect bonus to incoming logi while local reps don't.
Blatantly obvious solution: Change the local rep bonus to include a bonus to incoming logi as well. 7.5% per level to local reps and 5% per level to incoming remote reps, perhaps? the idea at heart is nice, though for scaling probably too OP at the suggest 5% per level, but CCP's already said they're scairt to open that can of worms because the possible OP implications are... etc. |

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
248
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 02:55:00 -
[796] - Quote
I oppose the resist nerf, as it causes several other, un-needed nerfs. Consider buffing reppers or increasing damage.
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1361
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 07:38:00 -
[797] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: That would be at all appropriate, were it not for the overwhelming evidence that SR is a waste of a bonus FOR A FLEET SHIP
Fixed. It's a good bonus for solo ships.
|

John 1135
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 12:38:00 -
[798] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:John 1135 wrote:What is a solid counter-argument to R? The solid counter argument to R: R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space. Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping. Why not just increase the SR bonuses a touch to compensate? If it's not working now, perhaps it needs to be stronger? Nerfing R won't suddenly propel SR to usefulness you know.
Nerf RR (the problem child) Buff SR (another problem child) Leave R alone (the useful and widely liked child who does as she is told) |

Ujio Sendai
Reclamation Technologies Libertus Coventu Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:29:00 -
[799] - Quote
All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.
If you think of the math and the principles to it R vs SR is a displacement of damage over time. Lowering R or raising SR only brings their effectiveness over time closer together. R obviously allows you to take a much stonger hit and applies to all relative HP that you have or will have restored. SR is a restoration of HP that you have lost, so it's a calculation of damage over time to figure which is better.
Obviously this truly depends on the situation of each specific battle. Seeing as how you don't have the luxury in PVP to figure what you're going to fight and how and when they're going to throw damage at you resistances are the safest bet. That is not to say in any given situation SR would be better or worse everytime.
All they are doing is making it more of a balancing game as to which method is more effective in a number of battle situations. I think it's a good thing. Better and more interesting than instantly knowing SR bonus is inferior at least |

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 22:45:00 -
[800] - Quote
Ujio Sendai wrote:All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.
44 ships, is not a few... |

Ujio Sendai
Reclamation Technologies Libertus Coventu Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 22:50:00 -
[801] - Quote
A 1% adjustment that works out to 5% only if the relevant ship skill is trained up to lv.5 on a select group of bonused ships is about as a minimalist approach as you can do. |

Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
229
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 00:23:00 -
[802] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Ujio Sendai wrote:All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.
44 ships, is not a few... ^^^^ Didn't say it myself since I felt it was rather obvious :) |

Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
229
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 00:25:00 -
[803] - Quote
Ujio Sendai wrote:A 1% adjustment that works out to 5% only if the relevant ship skill is trained up to lv.5 on a select group of bonused ships is about the most minimalist approach as you can do. EDIT: After thinking about it some and reading what others have said, I'd guess somewhere between slight decreases like this and just outright increasing the HP reppers restore would be the best way to make the competition between the 2 systems more involved. I haven't taken the time to consider all of the implicatons of this when other modules are brought into the mix, but really the reppers themselves seem to be the weakest link. It's just some guess work, it's someone else's full time paying job to do the extreme number crunching I believe  Hence why I try to avoid doing so myself beyond some basic stuff to make sure they get pointed in the right direction. |

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
251
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 17:10:00 -
[804] - Quote
The sad part is as I work it out, this reduces my resistance tank by less than 1% once mods and skills are factored in. So what is the point of this again, exactly?
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:07:00 -
[805] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Well it is getting late in the day, we have a month to go so it's unlikely any changes will be made now, rip amarr and caldari, all because fozzie likes burst tanking... yup
everybody knows self repair bonuses arent good at all and very limited to solo play ,but hey ccp likes it for some reason they didnt share with us,so they ruin everything else which stands in their way to make it more/most popular oh and is there still anybody who thinks ccp doesnt hate caldari/amarr? |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:10:00 -
[806] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The sad part is as I work it out, this reduces my resistance tank by less than 1% once mods and skills are factored in. So what is the point of this again, exactly? the point is that you should have been fail at math exam and never been released to the public go back to elementary school thx |

Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 09:29:00 -
[807] - Quote
Fozzie, thanks for not forgetting that the nerf bat should hit the limited issue ships as well.
Would you also be so kind to nerf other limited issue ship when you do your next rebalance changes? I think that Guardian-Vexor's ability to control 10 drones is way OP and should be fixed at once! |

Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
237
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 14:58:00 -
[808] - Quote
Interesting note, I decided for all the lack of response we keep getting to contact our new CSM 8 about this, and basically got told off. "The issues you present are too small a matter for us to even bother with" was the gist of the responses I got, out of those few that I did get.
So much for the Devs telling us to talk with them about our concerns since they apparently don't want to deal with us either. |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 15:07:00 -
[809] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:The math is what trouble me.
When the dev's claim that resist bonuses outperform local rep bonuses I always think 'what's wrong with that they should do'.
By making a bonus equal the devs are actually removing choice from the game. If local rep modules vs resists equate to exactly the same where is the choice? Mathematically we're all equal! Once again it doesn't matter how we fit our ships if we slap on plates or extenders in lieu of a stacking mods to get better resists our individual choices amount to nothing, no edge whatsoever.
This is very frustrating in a game where you live or die by the edge that you create. Given that reppers and shield boosters use cap I think they should actually be more powerful, 10% per level like the recently nerfed incursus seems fine. It's a good and fair trade off in the sense that I am willing to trade cap for a powerful edge in bonus hitpoints that combined with my skills I can craft into a valuable defence.
The resist bonus, even with 4% per level is still considerable better overall than the active tanking bonus(it improves EHP, RR, local rep, reduces resistance holes and improves the advantage of plates and slaves). The only difference is that it isn't just as good or even situational(high dps intake) better than the active tanking bonus during active tanking.
The active tanking bonus on it's own would be fine with 10%, however improved by faction gear, drugs, implants and gang bonuses you get silly numbers pretty quick and this doesn't really need to be any more problematic as it is. Overall combining the active tank bonus with a cap efficiency bonus for active tank modules, a overheating bonus(strength or duration) or a fitting bonus(to improve dps while active tanking) would be far easier to balance and even more useful if you look at plain T2 tanks. As it stands the active tanking bonus is still to limited, since it only works if you actually take only moderate damage, only while your repps run, only while you have cap for your repps and the active tank reducing options for dps, range and utility a lot by the high fitting/slot requirement for a useful active tank in pvp.
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:27:00 -
[810] - Quote
Perhaps the nature of active tanking should be changed completely to a percentage of the total tank per rep as opposed to a bonus based on the performance of the repping module. It would be easier to balance and it would also mean that extenders would have the side effect of increasing the amount repped. E.g 10% per rep of total tank.
Modules can be balanced around cap use, cpu, pg etc.
I haven't thought about it too deeply and am just throwing the idea out there. |
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