They're liberating people, don't you know?

Plausible deniability, the sub-clause of any Federation initiative. This, combined with GMVA's incurably flaccid attempt at enforcing a 'historical boundary zone' only goes to show that the price of the fallaciously named cause of 'freedom and liberty' is the theft of territory and the culling of individuals for the way of life 'they should be free to choose'.

With the current state of the war zone, we should all be very afraid for our baseliner countrymen now at the mercy of an enemy that knows no decency or responsibility.

I was surprised the peace between Caldari and Gallente even lasted this long after the Caldari Prine incident. Regardless, both have their dirty laundry out now, and all I can really do is point my fingers at the commanders behind the squadron, I am well too aware of the fact that soldiers, especially cloned ones, do not question orders.

Considering the nature of the clone soldiers, and that every major power has had to enact some manner of purge against the first generation, I would tend to give the Federation the benefit of the doubt on this one.

That said, that Gallente must protect Caldari from other Gallente is indeed atrocious. This is the 'liberation' that GMVA was harping about?

I remain a proponent of suspension of the CEWPA war, and a return to historical sovereignty in the embattled zones.

I can't help but feel that most of the comments here are why the concept of peace is so unlikely.

I can't help but feel that most of the comments here are why the concept of peace is so unlikely.

You're ignoring the complicity of Gallente nationalists in perpetuating the anger and hatred that fuels this senseless, unwinnable war. -That's- what vexes me about all of this. Nationalists and zealots -- Caldari, Gallente, choose your flag -- grumble about the evils and misdeeds of the other guy, without realizing that this fuels the cycle of self-justification and violence.

So stuff it, you ignorant lout, unless you want to actually demonstrate the knowledge and wherewithal to discuss the sociological constructs that are causing death and devastation without end.

Peace is only unlikely for as long as we allow comments like these to sway our hearts and minds toward enmity.

You don't think the death squads are a more likely culprit?

You may want to consider swaying your heart and mind to take a step back and actually evaluate the words I said instead of jumping on the bandwagon.

My comment was not directed at you, Captain Tivianne, it was in reference to the comments throughout the thread.

Mr. Tivianne, you're right that my anger does neither of us any justice. However, if you intend to be read as something other than just another nationalist trying to goad the opposition, please, I implore you, communicate that from the outset. Your immediately accusatory approach doesn't do well in that regard.

I very much believe they are a likely culprit. But I also believe that every time something like this happens the Summit is flooded with threads of one side immediately blaming the other and stating why, and that is not good. Very likely unavoidable, but not good. If everyone simply allows old hatreds and mistrust to grow, I feel peace continues to get further off. Which was the point of my comment. Perhaps I should have said "tone" instead of "comments".

The average Caldari citizen is more likely to be gunned down by their own government than these rouge soldiers.

and now immortal psychopaths running around killing innocents.

I'll ignore the "rouge soldiers" freudian slip there...

First of all, does it matter how likely it is that the average Caldari will be gunned down by one of these death squads? Does it matter how many Caldari are gunned down by them? Are you really casting yourself as an apologist for death squads? As if they were a reasonable and acceptable phenomenon?

Secondly, how many Caldari do you estimate are gunned down by the State? You do know that the State has been funneling immense quantities of resources into a century-long tube-child program designed to increase the population, right?

Your apology is accepted and appreciated, Mr. Tivianne; speaking generally, we are imperfect communicators, and imperfect readers. It's easy in a place so closely tied with violence and propaganda for words to be misinterpreted. Let's both take more care in the future.

I can't help but feel that most of the comments here are why the concept of peace is so unlikely.

Where did I say I was supporting death squads?

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Why do you only talk in questions? Are you aware that it's obnoxious and blurs what little point you are trying to get across?

However, it sure sounds like an apologists excuse for the existence of them. You know, "sure, there may be death squads, but the Caldari are better off under the threat of the death squads than they are under their own government".

Actually, I was questioning your arguments, hence the... you know... questions.

Sometimes I listen to people complaining that the Federation has this "holier than thou" attitude, that the Federation seems to feel that it knows what's good for people better than those people do themselves. Statements like yours make me agree with them.

Fred, perhaps the propaganda here is not entirely one-sided, eh? Also, I am a Tubekid, so it's not like the program was shut down millenia ago, is it?

Fred, 'no longer sponsored by the state' does not equate to having been cancelled. It merely indicates that these ventures have moved into the corporate world, and are run at the behest of the individual megacorporations.

I would be personally terrified if I were in the position of Caldari in Black Rise right now. My statement was to point out the logical gap in Provist and their supporters. Yes, they are directly blaming the Gallente for what has happened, yet never seem to reflect on themselves when they committed a similar atrocity about a month ago.

All's fair. One of the few redeeming points of the Summit is that we're exposed to knowledge that we may not otherwise find.

That said, surely you, as a person involved in media, understand that we can't base reports on unsubstantiated fact. While it's clear that the Provists have a somewhat questionable view of the rule of law, as indicated by the summary dismissal of a law suit against the Pyre Defense Combine, and by their arrest of a number of executives involved in a mass resignation, this is a far cry from summary execution for dissent.

I very much doubt any megacorporation would tolerate that sort of behavior against their citizens.

BloodBird; I didn't ask him to apologize. If he were to apologize after a request, it would be an empty gesture. We miscommunicated, traded several insults, and then came to realize that we had both miscommunicated. He did himself honor by apologizing, an apology which I accepted; I will freely admit culpability in this exchange, as I misread his intent as he misread mine.

I don't really see what needs comment, at this point.

Yet that's not what came out of your statement: "The average Caldari citizen is more likely to be gunned down by their own government than these rouge soldiers."

Sure, you may have been aiming your argument at the boots-n-bludgeons brigade, but that didn't come across at all. Instead, it merely sounded partisan.

You're a journalist. Shouldn't your journalistic statements be open to debate? Shouldn't they be open to questions about their veracity?

First of all, does it matter how likely it is that the average Caldari will be gunned down by one of these death squads? Does it matter how many Caldari are gunned down by them?

No it does not. Regardless of the likelyhood or death toll they are still a threat to many innocent Caldari people. Are you really casting yourself as an apologist for death squads? As if they were a reasonable and acceptable phenomenon?

I do not intend on appearing as an apologist and I apologize if my rhetoric suggest otherwise. This is not a reasonable nor acceptable phenomenon

Secondly, how many Caldari do you estimate are gunned down by the State?

I cannot give an accurate estimate due to the lack of information coming from the State.

You do know that the State has been funneling immense quantities of resources into a century-long tube-child program designed to increase the population, right?

The State no longer supports the tube child programs but corporate entities might. Regardless, these killings and executions are not intended to depopulate the State, rather rid it of those that the Provist find a potential threat to their regime.

It's worth noting that Kaalakiota is headed by Heth, and has been militant since its inception. This does not mean, however, that targeted killings occur frequently in the State. It merely confirms that at one protest, security and protestors both lost control of the situation, and people died. That executives subsequently resigned in protest shows very strongly how citizens reacted to this.

Fred, you are entirely within your rights to think that the State governs with a jackboot and an iron fist. However, it is important to remember that one should not generalize the actions of the Provists with the State generally. With luck, as Heth loses influence and power, we will be able to marginalize them, and push for a state that more accurately reflects our ideals.

Until then, such claims as you make should be backed by proof. The burden of proof always lays with the person making charges. Vague reference to news black outs and anecdotes from distant relations are not proof, as they are completely unverifiable.

I still want to pick on one nit, though, simply because I believe journalists should be held to high standards. You stated that Caldari citizens were more likely to be killed by the State than by Gallente death squads, yet you later stated that you had no information about the number of Caldari killed by the State. Isn't this a contradiction?

Fred, you have provided no additional information, despite a prodigious amount of breath spent on the subject. I'm going to have to discount your statements.

Wasn't there a statement from the Federal Navy that these killteams represented Black Ops experiments that had decided to go rogue when their funding was pulled?

That's pretty definite - as a confession of responsibility, even if not culpability for the actual atrocities.

GÇ£The Federation Navy has ended its immortal soldier program. This squadron of soldiers was officially taken off duty, but has apparently gone rogue and stolen Naval equipment to use in continued aggressive action against the Caldari. The Navy will take all appropriate action to apprehend these criminals and try them for war crimes.GÇ¥

The average Caldari citizen is more likely to be gunned down by their own government than these rouge soldiers.

Please show us your statistical analysis comparing the number of Caldari who have died at Caldari hands versus the number who have died at Gallentean hands over the last, say, ten years. This should be interesting.

A more accurate demand would be to see a statistical analysis of Caldari killed by Caldari forces versus the number of Caldari killed specifically by this rogue group since the announcement of its existence.

That would not be more accurate, that would just be selectively biased to only give you the numbers that you want to see.

That would not be more accurate, that would just be selectively biased to only give you the numbers that you want to see.

Please, return to school and obtain a legitimate education.

And by that you mean a Federation school that will teach me to only believe what the Federation wants me to. Got it.

Let us examine this against the Amarrian methods.
If you dissent against the Theology council mandated teachings in Amarr, you are either re-educated swiftly, or, if your dissent continues, enslaved for generations.
The Theocratic government mandates that your people teach those they reclaim 'What to think' and limit their ability to think other things.

So, your claim that the Federation schooling system would teach you only what the Federation wants you to think, is as farcical as the claim that the SDII are even capable of "stick[ing] a black bag over your head in the middle of the night" if you dissent against the government. There are many trillions of Federation citizens. The SDII are a small part of the FIO. They simply don't have the manpower to 'remove' every dissenting voice. Even a cursory examination of Federation media and society shows that there are always many dissenting voices. That is part of what makes the Federation such a melting pot of ideals and cultures.

You may dislike non-Amarrian cultures, but seriously, superimposing the negative aspects of your own culture upon them and then claiming that is why they are so bad is, at best, hypocritical and at worst a sign of severe psychosis.

---

Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.

Remember, citizens!
Keep shooting gallente, or their death squads can come to your homes!

Remember, buy NOH or the Black Eagles will eat your babies.

Who would buy NOH after they were selling crap instead of intel on Caldari Prime?

Crap, you're easy to bait.

Okay, Ishukone, Sukuuvestaa and Nugoeihuvi corporations are traitorous enemies of the State.

Remind me, which State?

Bullshit

I argued that the SDII do not control Federation education. As they do not and within Federation charter cannot, this is true.

I also refuted Katran's claim that if you speak out against the Federation, the SDII put a black bag over your head and remove you from society.

"Black Rise Death Squad" sounds like a good name for both a music band and a Capsuleer Corporation.

Katran.

I have seen that a common guiding phrase within many Federation educational systems is 'How, not what'.
At first this confused me, so I did a little research. It appears that there was a movement some time after the end of the initial Cal-Gal war that children should be taught How to think, not What to think and that the movement in question gained widespread popular support, especially amongst those doing the teaching.

Let us examine this against the Amarrian methods.
If you dissent against the Theology council mandated teachings in Amarr, you are either re-educated swiftly, or, if your dissent continues, enslaved for generations.
The Theocratic government mandates that your people teach those they reclaim 'What to think' and limit their ability to think other things.

I grew up in Luminaire and went to colllege in Caille. I can a test to what Toluijin Chagangan says is true, we are taught from a young age not trust anyone mainly our government and to look for the "How things work" and the "Why things work", so that care see the world with our own eyes. I will say that when news of the Black Eagles acts were first reported many in the Federation where angry and upset. I was part of a group that protested this. And when I came of age I left the Federation and sought out a new lfe among stars. I joined a group Caldari State corporation Axiom Navy that was the millitary arm of their alliance Axiom Alliance. In that alliance I saw the How and Why of the State. I was a just a number to the Peace and Order corporation, and many of the missions they sent me one were to steal or kill people for "crimes" that were not. I couldn't understand it. I saw the how and Why of Tibus Heth. I could see how he had turn his people in slaves of the State. Do not fool your self, he has. The why is so he can fuel his own hate. He does not wish peace, he mind only breeds hate and it has done the same to you all. Not wanting to be part of that hate I left.
So I went deeper into the void. I founded my own corporation and went to Low Sec and the Null. There I found truth to what my Government teacher told me in college. "The Federation is the worst from of government there has ever been, but it is the best that mankind has." It really is the worst and the best. It is the worst because at time it is slow to re-act and move when there needs to be speed. It is the best because it gives every citizen the same chance to make it. It respects the lives and freedoms of it people. And most importantly it teaches its people that freedoms are not free but at a deep cost. That is way I came back to the the Federation. I had great repect and good standing with the Caldari State because of my service to the Peace and Order corporation.
I do not condone the Black Eagles and their rouge attackes on Caldari people in any star systems. But they are that, rouge attacks. The Federation did not issue them. No rational Federation citizen would support this rouge actions. I know that many in the Caldari state will not say the same of Yakiya Tovil-Toba killing 2 mill Federation citizens in Hueromont, Tibus Heth's time in the Home Guard attacking citizens of Gallente and Intaki heritage in the station he was station he was assigned tom, or actions of the Templis Dragonaurs. Insteed you will call this people heroes.
Yet another case where the State is not willing to look at the log in their own eyes before pulling the speck from some elses.

Within the Amarr empire the Theology Council DO provide the sanctioned interpretations of their scripture.
Deviation from these sanctioned interpretations is, in general, deemed heretical and those who follow them either exiled, enslaved or killed.

The Theology Council does not have to work against the system. They 'are' the system.
Unlike in the Federation, where the actions of those in power have various methods in place to ensure that power cannot be easily abused, the only one able to counter the word of the Theology Council is the Empress.

I'm expecting royalties since the (intent for use of the) name was conceived in my thread.

You shall be paid in Caldari Miltia Capsuleer corpses.

Between your cunning plan to 'breed' the Caldari out of the Caldari in Black Rise and this you've revealed yourself to be quite the creepy piece of business, haven't you?

Or perhaps, Gallentius, he grates at it because you're using a few years of inter-marrying as justification for a military occupation. - Patently ridiculous.

Consensual relations between a man and a woman is now a "devious breeding program" ? You State Protectorate Fascists are sick.

You shall be paid in Caldari Miltia Capsuleer corpses.