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Billy Kidd
Flying Doggs Armaments and Exploration
15
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Posted - 2013.04.16 23:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity.
Cruise missile buff
Machariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day.
Tracking enhancer nerf
This means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km.
The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km.
Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s? |
Cage Man
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 00:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Its not all about dps. The mach will still retain its ability to quickly dispose of smaller ships which will make mission times quicker. It will still very quickly minimize the distance to the target which will make the change in falloff negligible. Never used either for PVP so can't comment there. Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
965
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 01:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things.
It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.
And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world.
Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
174
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Posted - 2013.04.17 01:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
That's a bigger damage boost than I expected.
Still. The Mach is good for reasons beyond just damage, though, and the CNR's damage application against the smaller ships didn't increase as much as its raw DPS did. The Mach probably hasn't been dethroned, but the gap certainly got a lot smaller... |
hellcane
Never Back Down
3
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Posted - 2013.04.17 01:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Missiles vs turrets still comes down to a few key differences and quality of life issues. As mentioned above, turrets and mach/vargur will still be better(IMO) but missiles will be closer than they used to be.
Now if they can just extend the base range and/or speed of torps..... |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
965
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 01:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's stuff like this that makes you wonder if devs actually think things out instead of saying "hey, this might be interesting."
These changes mostly miss the point. The speed increase is in the right direction, but not nearly enough to make it viable. The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps.
Cruise boats will be even bigger jokes in pvp, and cherished by noob pve EFT warriors, until the first time they fly a Mach, then they never go back. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 02:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
10% increased explo radius
hf hitting anything smaller than a battlecruiser. |
Billy Kidd
Flying Doggs Armaments and Exploration
15
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Posted - 2013.04.17 02:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things. It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures. And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world. Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger.
The 1200 dps I got is from fury missiles (no drones) with max skills, 4x CN BCS, and a full set of 5% implants. The explosion radius I'm getting with them is 233.2 using 1x t2 rigor and 2x t1 rigor rigs.
The 1015 dps is from the same setup above but with faction launchers. The explosion radius with that setup is 135.85. This is enough to destroy cruisers in one volley while still doing full damage to battlecruisers and higher. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
932
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 02:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:It's stuff like this that makes you wonder if devs actually think things out instead of saying "hey, this might be interesting."
These changes mostly miss the point. The speed increase is in the right direction, but not nearly enough to make it viable. The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps.
Cruise boats will be even bigger jokes in pvp, and cherished by noob pve EFT warriors, until the first time they fly a Mach, then they never go back. i'm calling it: navy scorp with four tps will be a better cruise platform than the cnr post 'buff'.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
966
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 02:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Billy Kidd wrote:sabre906 wrote:Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things. It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures. And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world. Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger. The 1200 dps I got is from fury missiles (no drones) with max skills, 4x CN BCS, and a full set of 5% implants. The explosion radius I'm getting with them is 233.2 using 1x t2 rigor and 2x t1 rigor rigs. The 1015 dps is from the same setup above but with faction launchers. The explosion radius with that setup is 135.85. This is enough to destroy cruisers in one volley while still doing full damage to battlecruisers and higher.
If you're going to use hardwiring and t2 ammo, Mach would be at 1.35k dps, range nerf would be mostly countered, all with decent tracking, as ACs track so well to begin with. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1161
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 02:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Eh, have some numbers. Fit is 3x CN BCU; 4 would obviously help. No painter; assuming a MJD fit. Rigs are 2x rigor IIs 1 flare I. Targets are Angel and Gurista to get a range of possible values.
738 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 777
777 * 1.25 damage increase = 971
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 100.05
explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45
target: Gist General
sig: 320 orbit velocity: 175
final damage: 916
target: Pith Massacrer
sig: 410 orbit velocity: 140
final damage: 971
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 299
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 462
==========================
606 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 638
638 * 1.25 damage increase = 798
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 119.02
explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4
target: Gist General
sig: 320 orbit velocity: 175
final damage: 798
target: Pith Massacrer
sig: 410 orbit velocity: 140
final damage: 798
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 356
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 543
target: Gistii Impaler
sig: 35 orbit velocity: 275
final damage: 101
target: Pithi Demolisher
sig: 38 orbit velocity: 220
final damage: 132
==========================
527 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 555
555 * 1.25 damage increase = 694
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 143.175
explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 439
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 624
target: Gistii Impaler
sig: 35 orbit velocity: 275
final damage: 153
target: Pithi Demolisher
sig: 38 orbit velocity: 220
final damage: 185
==========================
Summary: I'd say this is a pretty significant boost to the CNR, but I'd still take a Machariel. The CNR is getting way more competitive though, and if you're somewhat able to manage range and snipe frigs at range with sentries it could be a very valid mission runner -- much more so than today.
If -- and it's obviously a big, speculative if -- the fleet phoon gets modeled on the CNR with the new Typhoon bonus it might rip things apart in a serious way. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 03:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
hm..would like to see fleet pest more potent too..being token battleship is sad imo. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Starlight Kouvo
Almost Epic
6
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Posted - 2013.04.17 07:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
I ran a lot of Lvl 4's in a Scorpion Navy Issue with pretty much max missile skills and cruise missiles and while it was pretty good at battlecruisers and up, anything smaller was just a no go except for destroyers. I found I had to run a 2nd ship (Drake) to kill frigates and cruisers.
The paper dps just does not equate to mission dps I found.
I have now switched to a Nightmare and even with only T1 Large Pulse or Faction Large Pulse it has no problems clearing level 4's solo and much quicker than the Scorpion and can pop frigates in 1 to 3 shots up to 60km away which the SNI could never do with cruise missiles.
Missiles are definitely great as a starting character for PVE. |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 08:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
All bets are off until the faction ships are 'rebalanced'. I have a feeling bad things are in store for the Mach. The RIfter was once a King and we've seen how it was dealt with.
I like these changes for the standard Raven. The extra mid it's getting will mean not having to give up tank or prop mod to fit a target painter.
....or maybe they're doing that so it can fit a module to offset some sort of "tracking disruption' |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
361
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
You guys should really talk about this in the thread about changes, CCP are reading that and can take the feedback to modify things. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
190
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't think this falls under feedback as much as it does theorycrafting and in that regard it should probably go in S&M.
...that's S&M as in Ships and Modules lol |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 10:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
You should be more worried about the Phoon fleet issue. If it will remain with the same bonus', while getting a 7th launcherslot, it is going to beat the CNR.
And yes, if the CNR remains with current bonus', it will be able to compete well with the mach. Slightly less dps than the mach, and with slight problems shooting small stuff, but able to choose its damage type completely, and to apply it's damage up to all mission NPC's regardless of range.
The mach will always lose some dmg due to falloff and sometimes due to NPC's resistances (shooting with other ammo than hail hurts dps).
PS: CNR without TP is doing it wrong. Noone needs MJD sniping in missions. Especially not without TP's. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1639
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Billy Kidd wrote:Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity. Cruise missile buffMachariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day. Tracking enhancer nerfThis means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km. The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km. Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s?
Answer is:
C. Typhoon . |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
98
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 14:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Billy Kidd wrote:Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity. Cruise missile buffMachariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day. Tracking enhancer nerfThis means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km. The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km. Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s? Answer is: C. Typhoon .
Probably this, if the Nphoon gets a 25% prescision bonus it will be superior to any other missile platform. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
550
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 20:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:10% increased explo radius
hf hitting anything smaller than a battlecruiser. I currently hit frigates very easy with cruise missiles. I don't see a 10% increase in explosion radius causing a problem. All it really does is void the 25% damage increase when targeting smaller ships. i am sure I will still 1 volley cruisers and destroyers. Frigates can be dealt with using precision missiles or drones. I don't see an issue here.
Rigor rigs are to a missile boat what tracking enhancers are to the Mach. They help you hit the small targets.
A CNR with 2 T2 rigor rigs and 1 T2 Flare rig firing precision cruise missiles can kill elite frigs easier than a 800mm AC Mach can. And they can not get under the guns of a CNR. The Mach is an amazing ship, but the CNR is very close to it, if fit properly. Only real advantage the Mach has is its speed. |
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
248
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 20:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Eh, have some numbers. Fit is 3x CN BCU; 4 would obviously help. No painter; assuming a MJD fit. Rigs are 2x rigor IIs 1 flare I. Targets are Angel and Gurista to get a range of possible values. 738 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 777 777 * 1.25 damage increase = 971 2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I. explosion velocity 100.05 explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45
target: Gist Generalsig: 320 orbit velocity: 175 final damage: 916
target: Pith Massacrersig: 410 orbit velocity: 140 final damage: 971
target: Gistum Maraudersig: 120 orbit velocity: 225 final damage: 299
target: Pithum Erasersig: 155 orbit velocity: 180 final damage: 462 ========================== 606 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 638 638 * 1.25 damage increase = 798 2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I. explosion velocity 119.02 explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4
target: Gist Generalsig: 320 orbit velocity: 175 final damage: 798
target: Pith Massacrersig: 410 orbit velocity: 140 final damage: 798
target: Gistum Maraudersig: 120 orbit velocity: 225 final damage: 356
target: Pithum Erasersig: 155 orbit velocity: 180 final damage: 543
target: Gistii Impalersig: 35 orbit velocity: 275 final damage: 101
target: Pithi Demolishersig: 38 orbit velocity: 220 final damage: 132 ========================== 527 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 555 555 * 1.25 damage increase = 694 2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I. explosion velocity 143.175 explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56
target: Gistum Maraudersig: 120 orbit velocity: 225 final damage: 439
target: Pithum Erasersig: 155 orbit velocity: 180 final damage: 624
target: Gistii Impalersig: 35 orbit velocity: 275 final damage: 153
target: Pithi Demolishersig: 38 orbit velocity: 220 final damage: 185 ========================== Summary: I'd say this is a pretty significant boost to the CNR, but I'd still take a Machariel. The CNR is getting way more competitive though, and if you're somewhat able to manage range and snipe frigs at range with sentries it could be a very valid mission runner -- much more so than today. If -- and it's obviously a big, speculative if -- the fleet phoon gets modeled on the CNR with the new Typhoon bonus it might rip things apart in a serious way.
Awesome numbers, if you still have the sheet, what happens if you add two painters....? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1162
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 23:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Awesome numbers, if you still have the sheet, what happens if you add two painters....?
Ok, new set of numbers. Fit is the same except we're now assuming a fourth CN BCU and a pair of painters; numbers listed will be damage without painter, damage with 1 painter, and damage with 2 painters. Painters are max skilled PWNAGE, so 37.5% sig increase.
786 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 827
777 * 1.25 damage increase = 1034
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 100.05
explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45
target: Gist General
sig: 320 orbit velocity: 175
final damage: 720 1 PWNAGE: 962 2 PWNAGE: 1034 (max)
target: Pith Massacrer
sig: 410 orbit velocity: 140
final damage: 1034; no painters needed
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 235 1 PWNAGE: 314 2 PWNAGE: 406
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 364 1 PWNAGE: 485 2 PWNAGE: 627
==========================
646 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 680
638 * 1.25 damage increase = 850
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 119.02
explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4
target: Gist General
sig: 320 orbit velocity: 175
final damage: 850 (no painters needed)
target: Pith Massacrer
sig: 410 orbit velocity: 140
final damage: 850 (no painters needed)
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 379 1 PWNAGE: 502 2 PWNAGE: 644
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 579 1 PWNAGE: 767 2 PWNAGE: 850 (max damage)
target: Gistii Impaler
sig: 35 orbit velocity: 275
final damage: 107 1 PWNAGE: 142 2 PWNAGE: 182
target: Pithi Demolisher
sig: 38 orbit velocity: 220
final damage: 186 1 PWNAGE: 186 2 PWNAGE: 238
==========================
562 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 591
555 * 1.25 damage increase = 739
2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.
explosion velocity 143.175
explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56
target: Gistum Marauder
sig: 120 orbit velocity: 225
final damage: 467 1 PWNAGE: 590 2 PWNAGE: 726
target: Pithum Eraser
sig: 155 orbit velocity: 180
final damage: 664 1 PWNAGE: 739 (max damage)
target: Gistii Impaler
sig: 35 orbit velocity: 275
final damage: 163 1 PWNAGE: 206 2 PWNAGE: 253
target: Pithi Demolisher
sig: 38 orbit velocity: 220
final damage: 197 1 PWNAGE: 258 2 PWNAGE: 317
========================== |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
970
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 03:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
These are orbit speeds. Approach speed is twice that, and vector doesn't help unlike with guns. You're not gonna wait for rats to be in orbit before shooting them. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
248
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 06:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Excellent stuff. Much appreciated.
CNR is shaping up nicely indeed when one factors in pure damage choices |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
435
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 07:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
A little bit of nitpicking...
sabre906 wrote:It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures. While the entire forum is well aware of how you can't hear people because of how awesome you are, you should really stop ignoring that explosion radius of rages actually lowered due to changes to GMP.
sabre906 wrote:The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps. Well, most of the time they will do more applied DPS in the end, just not that much.
OT: Probably not, at least until changes to hulls. Mach still can blap frigs, apply enough DPS and burn to gates/cans/position much faster. As a side note, gunnery skills are probably still more useful than missile ones, especially when it comes to training T2 cruises vs T2 autocanons... |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2548
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 10:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
New Garde Domi > all
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm a bit fuzzy when it comes to the equations numbers.
As far as you guys can reason, would this also mean that a Golem would now officially be viable with Cruise Missiles?
Equivalent of 8 normal turrets, ability to use faction/T2 missiles all the time because only using half as much, and targer painter bonuses with the new extra Cruise damage should pop out much more favourable numbers ... no?
I do fully understand that its inherently a Torp boat, but it does sound like this change would bring the damage output well into a usable range now. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
hellcane
Never Back Down
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 12:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
Except that NPCs use defender missiles. |
Illest Insurrectionist
The Scope Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
hellcane wrote:Except that NPCs use defender missiles.
They do. However 11,000m/s missiles might negate that some. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1171
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:These are orbit speeds. Approach speed is twice that, and vector doesn't help unlike with guns. You're not gonna wait for rats to be in orbit before shooting them.
Trust me, I've thought of that. And this is what came of it. Approach speed = pseudo-MWD = sig bloom = about the same damage as orbit speed.
Barrogh Habalu wrote:A little bit of nitpicking... sabre906 wrote:It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures. While the entire forum is well aware of how you can't hear people because of how awesome you are, you should really stop ignoring that explosion radius of rages actually lowered due to changes to GMP.
I've given up. I could copypasta the math every time he makes that claim, but what's the point? |
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