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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Lord Zim
2370
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:31:00 -
[361] - Quote
Roime wrote:I think you missed the part of the EULA considering cache scraping, which hasn't changed with this announcement. It's always been bannable. From http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9:
CCP Lingorm wrote:As long as you do not modify the cache files then you are free to read them and write tools for them. Of course we do not support these tools (*grin*) and if we change the cache file structure of methods they may break, not that I see this happening but it is possible.
And to make perfectly clear. If you modify them then your client may break. "Always" is a very long time. I realize that today's youth have the attention span of a goldfish, but 5 years doth not "always" make. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
Gnoshia
State War Academy Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:34:00 -
[362] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Big Jim Slade wrote:What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them? Nope, no worries on that one. We are after the hackers, botters and the RMTers.
This pretty much sums it up folks.
The only people who should be worried are the cheaters. Not honest players who use evemon and such. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
427
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:36:00 -
[363] - Quote
Oh got an even better analogy now.
Problem: People are using cars to run over other people! Dear God! We need some legislation to punish people for doing that!
Do you:
A) Ban cars, but make a legally non-binding promise you won't punish someone using one for benign purposes, even though they remain in violation of this law.
B) Ban using cars to run people over.
C) Ban the act of running people over through any means and leave cars (which are just the means to achieve a result which could be achieved in many other ways) out of it.
CCP chose A.
(Hint: C is the correct response, but B would be acceptable) GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
264
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:37:00 -
[364] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:You should just ban everyone that runs to go read the EULA, these guys obv have something to hide >.> You don't live in Salem do you? I don't think that trial format worked out very well last time either. |
Desparo
Roid Ravagers Unitary Enterprises
11
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:38:00 -
[365] - Quote
So lets repeat this in English.
We are all at risk of being banned at and time at your whim for using something like EVEMon that for what 8 years? has they have expressly OK'd by other gm's at ccp.
So all these years you havn't learned customer service and the usual customer service at CCP goes on. |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
78
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:41:00 -
[366] - Quote
Innominate wrote:Tippia wrote: Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was GÇ£only cache scrapingGÇ¥.
This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.
Except it was market bot. "Only cache scraping" was a dumb argument then, it remains a dumb argument now. Market bots should be banned and the cache scraping side is irrelevant.
There is a difference between a keyboard macro which achieves automation, and a complex bot which relies on injecting code into the EVE process. When you get detected as using a particularly nasty bot, I can say: "You are permanently banned" as opposed to "You are temporarily banned".
Code injection bots place additional strain on our systems. They are detrimental to you, the legitimate players ability to enjoy EVE Online. That is why we have these rules in place. We'll further elaborate on this topic during the EVE Security presentation at FanFest, but honestly, this rule is there to help our legitimate players, not to get rid of them.
CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Sebastian Hoch
Black Lance Fidelas Constans
37
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:42:00 -
[367] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:[quote=Muscaat][quote=Ranger 1][quote=Muscaat][quote=CCP Stillman]
Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.
This reminds me of the Obama administration stupidly dancing around the question if they can kill US citizens with Drones. "yes we can, but we won't".
If you mean what you said -that cache scrapping is a violation only if it is used to gain an unfair advantage- then say that here or in the EULA. Since you retain the authority to determine what is an unfair advantage you lose no power. Thread dies.
But it is obvious that you are holding onto the "all cache scraping is a violation" because you really mean it and you don't want to explain the other reasons you might enforce it. For example, I am sure CCP would want to shut down a mobility app that competes with a future product/mobility app that provides CCP revenue. I am sure there are people that would rage at your profiteering, but many would understand it.
Try some honesty. Say what you really mean in the EULA and here and this thread will shut down. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:42:00 -
[368] - Quote
Ban them now, forget the discretional bit. If anyone is using gear or programmes to automate the game or gain an advantage in ANY way they should be banned. Most likely any players banned would not be paying cash anyway due to practically botting their way through the game so why dilly dally? So get on with it CCP..enforce the EULA totally, no exceptions. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
224
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:45:00 -
[369] - Quote
Desparo wrote: We are all at risk of being banned at and time at your whim for using something like EVEMon that for what 8 years?
To be entirely fair, the particular feature at question in evemon is relatively recent.
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bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
69
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:45:00 -
[370] - Quote
God...almost 20 pages and people still asking the same and same question. Can't you F read the first 3 pages before crying?
CCP should ban everyone asking about Evemon past page 5 because they can't read a damn thread.
Edit : it's nice to know multiboxing software are allowed for now <3 |
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virm pasuul
Viziam Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:47:00 -
[371] - Quote
If this thread is good for one thing - it's good for letting me know who I should avoid having any contact ( apart from non consesual pvp ) with in game.
All effing sense has gone out of the window, and all we are left with is board lawyering and nit picking.
CCP have bent over backwards trying to make it as clear as possible - even highlighting posts when players "get it" - that although certain things might be technically against the ELUA they don't intend to enforce them - because they they aren't against the spirit of the rules.
Try and use a little common sense, it works wonders. If after 19 pages you don't get it - you never will, enjoy your worry time.
You're lucky it's CCP who are in charge, if it was me, I would just switch the server off for 30 days and go down the pub to toast your tears. |
Slumberg
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:48:00 -
[372] - Quote
Ereilian wrote:Innominate wrote:CCP Peligro wrote: In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.
If someone is caught botting, then why does the legality of cache scraping matter at all? Because due to a complete lack of ability they are probably using the cache as a detection system, probably scanning the cache for access times .. looking for the access pattern of market bots. It is one of the lowest level indicators that can be used to detect other activities.
Thats great and all, but totally irrelevant. Make cache scraping 100 percent legal, use cache scraping usage as a detection method abd punish botters instead of eve-central users. |
Lord Zim
2370
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:48:00 -
[373] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Code injection bots place additional strain on our systems. They are detrimental to you, the legitimate players ability to enjoy EVE Online. That is why we have these rules in place. We'll further elaborate on this topic during the EVE Security presentation at FanFest, but honestly, this rule is there to help our legitimate players, not to get rid of them. And where does this involve "cache scraping"? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:49:00 -
[374] - Quote
The phrase "at our discretion" is not something a person wants to hear when a bright line rule is being laid down. Nor is anyone happy when suddenly a long standing practice, expressly allowed by previous CCP employees, suddenly is now deemed a violation of the EULA. So useful programs like EVEmon suddenly can get people in trouble if CCP wishes it.
Well after a number of debacles between CCP and the player base you have to accept that some of us are going to be rather skeptical when things come down to a judgement call. Depending what employee is behind the wheel on a given day I could be given a pass for using EVEmon because of its cache scraping or find myself banned. Super.
Let me walk you through my day as a the director for Sundering's recruitment:
First thing is go through the 5 to 20 EVE mails of people looking to join and telling me what a perfect fit they are for the corp. Then, for the people that are actually online I either interview them immediately or set up a time to interview them. So I go through these interviews and while I am looking to see if the pilot is a good fit personality and play style wise, I also am looking for any clues that this person is a spy, awoxer, botter or RMTer.
Thank's to EVE's meta game spying and awoxing is an extremely fun, lucrative and interesting pass time. So as the director of recruitment its my job to be gate number one and keep as many of these guys out as possible. So doing a full API check and using EVEmon as a tool for background checking is useful for the following:
1. Forensic accounting: Has this person been receiving Isk from a hostile for an unexplained reason. Does it look like this person engages in RMTing.
2. Communications: Does this person receiving instructions from someone telling him how to spy, use a botting program, mention multiple account use.
3. Verifying Skills: Is this person actually a Titan pilot? Does he even know what a Titan is?
4. Lie Detection: He claimed to own several jump freighters and BPOs that he was willing to let the corp use, but lo and behold he just a has a rookie ship and a smile. My personal favorite was the guy telling me had no connection to a certain character but upon checking found both characters existed on the same account.
Now I am not using EVEmon in anyway that would break the game. It doesn't give me a greater advantage when flying my ship around and dying horribly in a fire. What it does do is allow me to confidentially carry out my task as recruitment director since there is no in game equivalent to the background checking EVEmon lets me do. It also hampers me from keeping out RMTers and botters. Not everyone is going to be a nice guy and tell you they do things that CCP frowns on, and in the past we have seen CCP take actions against corporations and alliances for not cracking down on botters and RMTers. So from my perspective, you want me to on guard against that while taking away the very tool that lets me be an effective guard. That is on top of the duty of recruiting reliable and trustworthy people.
I'm sorry but I want a brighter line than what CCP has thus far put out. I want CCP to say what specifically is and is not okay. I don't want there to be "discretionary judgement calls."
As a final note if these free third party programs get banned is CCP going to come in and offer their own pay as you go version? (Micro-transactions anyone?) Is CCP going to put something in game that allows me to do everything that EVEmon allows me to for my recruitment duties? Half of CCP's subscriber base surely wants to know. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
224
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:49:00 -
[375] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Innominate wrote:Tippia wrote: Remeber the EVE-Uni market bot that got someone banned a while back? People tried to defend that on the grounds that it was GÇ£only cache scrapingGÇ¥.
This change puts a solid slug through both knees of that argument.
Except it was market bot. "Only cache scraping" was a dumb argument then, it remains a dumb argument now. Market bots should be banned and the cache scraping side is irrelevant. There is a difference between a keyboard macro which achieves automation, and a complex bot which relies on injecting code into the EVE process. When you get detected as using a particularly nasty bot, I can say: "You are permanently banned" as opposed to "You are temporarily banned". Code injection bots place additional strain on our systems. They are detrimental to you, the legitimate players ability to enjoy EVE Online. That is why we have these rules in place. We'll further elaborate on this topic during the EVE Security presentation at FanFest, but honestly, this rule is there to help our legitimate players, not to get rid of them.
Er... Did you reply to the wrong post?
Anyways would a code injection bot even need to scrape the cache? Not to mention the fact that it's already a permabannable offense, why does it need to be more illegal?
It this really just about trying to invent a way to permaban bots that under the current policy would only get a 30 day ban? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
428
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:51:00 -
[376] - Quote
I've missed like the last 6 pages of all this, but I'm glad to see CCP is modifying their policies w.r.t. cache scraping until an official EULA update can be performed. |
Ereilian
Over The Horizon
29
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:52:00 -
[377] - Quote
Slumberg wrote:Ereilian wrote:Innominate wrote:CCP Peligro wrote: In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.
If someone is caught botting, then why does the legality of cache scraping matter at all? Because due to a complete lack of ability they are probably using the cache as a detection system, probably scanning the cache for access times .. looking for the access pattern of market bots. It is one of the lowest level indicators that can be used to detect other activities. Thats great and all, but totally irrelevant. Make cache scraping 100 percent legal, use cache scraping usage as a detection method abd punish botters instead of eve-central users.
Unfortunately the Security team have failed to actually prove botting in some cases and therefore need a fallback to make their quota of low hanging fruit. If they had the balls they would actually go after the bot fuelled alliances. |
Yagrum
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:56:00 -
[378] - Quote
Just to be clear, even though you promise not to, it is an EULA violation and bannable offense to use cache-scrapers like EVEMon, multiboxers, or the keystroke-macro feature that came with my Razer mouse? |
Artctura
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
207
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:57:00 -
[379] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote: There is a difference between a keyboard macro which achieves automation, and a complex bot which relies on injecting code into the EVE process. When you get detected as using a particularly nasty bot, I can say: "You are permanently banned" as opposed to "You are temporarily banned".
Code injection bots place additional strain on our systems. They are detrimental to you, the legitimate players ability to enjoy EVE Online. That is why we have these rules in place. We'll further elaborate on this topic during the EVE Security presentation at FanFest, but honestly, this rule is there to help our legitimate players, not to get rid of them.
I agree, that is the way it should be. The simple fact is this. CCP can ban me at any time for any reason they want. It's their game.
However, I have made significant time investments into this game, and this is a game that encourages both nefarious and outside the box behavior by its players. When the MJD first came out, we actually had several of our players reported to CCP for "hacking" the game. Now, if I'm an aggressive market trader, there will no doubt be reports made on me as potentially being a market bot. In both cases, I'm sure there would be marks on my permanent record.
I'm completely ok with CCP investigating the above and finding out I'm clean.
What scares me is this conversation potentially occurring.
GM #1 "Hey, this guy got another report. It's his third one this month." GM #2 "Well, were the last two violations?" GM #1 "No, he's not breaking any rules." GM #2 "Well, this scan we run of the software on his computer shows the eve central market uploader is installed." GM #1 "Yea, we can just ban him for cache scrapping so I don't have to do any more work on this guy."
CCP Stillman's post completely and totally put that possibility out there. And to players that have invested hundreds of hours in playing this game, and not cheating at it, it's scary to think that the above might happen. CCP's behavior (especially of its employees in the past, and their refusal to terminate said employees after their role in cheating in the game was uncovered) shows that it can be a concern.
It doesn't help that every time we think CCP is moving forward, something like this comes out despite posts from CCP in the past that these things were OK. Then we get patently false statements saying "It has always been this way".
Anyone wondering about CCP's customer service can just look at this thread here to see where the problems lie. You guys can do better in the future. Please strive to do so.
Artctura for CSM 2013 |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
48
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:57:00 -
[380] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You have completely misunderstood the purpose and intent of consumer protection laws.
Please educate me. I'm always interested in improving my knowledge of the law and how it applies to me. Of course whilst I'm not expecting you to reveal personally identifiable information - at a minimum stating where you studied UK Law would be useful in whether you're qualified to offer such advice.
Ranger 1 wrote:Lets just leave this with if you do get yourself banned for some reason, let us know how that legally works out for you.
CCP can already ban me - I've used EveMon past the April 15th amnesty. I've broken the EULA, which I believe makes my contract void.
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Crazy MF
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
2
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:59:00 -
[381] - Quote
I think the issue at stake here, is there needs to be more clarification. For example, cache scraper program x is considered not be a threat or a percieved advanage to game play today however, in the future, cache scraper program x may be considered an advantage in the future by ccp. |
Josef North
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 18:59:00 -
[382] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Way to over react people.
This clarification closes a loop hole and gives CCP another tool to use against bots and cheats of various types.
YES, cache scraping is illegal... and if you use cache scraping for botting purposes they reserve the right to shut you down for it.
If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.
If CCP can tell the difference between botters and people who use Evemon, why not just ban botting (which they have)? What is the need for the double threat that is then randomly and possibly capriciously enforced? |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:04:00 -
[383] - Quote
Josef North wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Way to over react people.
This clarification closes a loop hole and gives CCP another tool to use against bots and cheats of various types.
YES, cache scraping is illegal... and if you use cache scraping for botting purposes they reserve the right to shut you down for it.
If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it. If CCP can tell the difference between botters and people who use Evemon, why not just ban botting (which they have)? What is the need for the double threat that is then randomly and possibly capriciously enforced?
Because what does human nature meeting the path of least resistance tell us?
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Vhaine Vhindiscar
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:04:00 -
[384] - Quote
Two step wrote:As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).
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Zeph Bowra
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:05:00 -
[385] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.
[... snip ...]
Thank you! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13659
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:07:00 -
[386] - Quote
Scooter McCabe wrote:Let me walk you through my day as a the director for Sundering's recruitment: Did you happen to notice that none of what you listed is in any way related to cache scraping?
Here's the important bit:Quote: So doing a full API check and using EVEmon as a tool for background checking is useful for the following: The reason you can do all that is because you're using the tools specifically designed to let you do that.
Quote:As a final note if these free third party programs get banned is CCP going to come in and offer their own pay as you go version? (Micro-transactions anyone?) Is CCP going to put something in game that allows me to do everything that EVEmon allows me to for my recruitment duties? Why would they, when EVEMon already does all that? It's not like using EVEMon has suddenly become illegal. Just keep doing what you're already doing with the tools you're already using. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Lord Zim
2371
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:14:00 -
[387] - Quote
Tippia wrote:you happen to notice that none of what you listed is in any way related to cache scraping? And what does cache scraping do that lets me do illegal things? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13660
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:20:00 -
[388] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Tippia wrote:you happen to notice that none of what you listed is in any way related to cache scraping? And what does cache scraping do that lets me do illegal things? No-one knows, which is why a large bat and discretionary swinging is a better method than trying to outlaw every specific circumstance.
My point is that he's wrote a nice little essay about something that in no way affects him. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
raylu D
HELLSINKER
2
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:22:00 -
[389] - Quote
Now that we're on page 20, is it a good time to point out that cache scraping is completely undetectable? At best, you can try to check access time but you're somewhat hosed when dealing with multiple EVE clients, hour delays (but hey, CCP's API just does the same thing but much worse), and the fact that it can be trivially spoofed with SetFileTime.
To reiterate: there is no way to tell when something else is reading a file. What is the point of this rule? |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
167
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:22:00 -
[390] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Scooter McCabe wrote:Let me walk you through my day as a the director for Sundering's recruitment: Did you happen to notice that none of what you listed is in any way related to cache scraping? Here's the important bit: Quote: So doing a full API check and using EVEmon as a tool for background checking is useful for the following: The reason you can do all that is because you're using the tools specifically designed to let you do that. Quote:As a final note if these free third party programs get banned is CCP going to come in and offer their own pay as you go version? (Micro-transactions anyone?) Is CCP going to put something in game that allows me to do everything that EVEmon allows me to for my recruitment duties? Why would they, when EVEMon already does all that? It's not like using EVEMon has suddenly become illegal. Just keep doing what you're already doing with the tools you're already using.
Because EVEmon as a 3rd party program uses cache scraping which would be bannable by CCP if this policy actually goes through. Let me be clear here, if CCP is out to stop cache scrapping and the programs that use them then that means use of EVEmon falls under a very wide net. So let's say you get let go the first time because someone uses their discretion and says my use of EVEmon is okay, but each time that net gets cast and I end up under it how many times will I get by on the mercy of someone's discretion.
Do you honestly think CCP wants to take the time and sift through the grain and the chaff here? If it honestly did then CCP Stillman would never have made the statement that "half of EVE's subscribers are now bannable." I am sure if we looked into further you would find some rather vanilla uses of EVEmon and other 3rd party programs and not this huge gaping security hole as it was originally made out to be.
Again to make it short and sweet for you: If it uses cache scraping CCP thinks its a violation of the EULA, EVEmon uses cace scraping and is considered a violation. I use EVEmon for a completely different purpose than what CCP is looking for, but CCP is asking me to trust in their discretionary judgement that I won't get caught up in some hamfisted security sweep. No thank you.
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