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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Minimax Zed
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
Two step wrote:As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).
This.
Also, I'm disappointed in CCP Stillman's lack of understanding of the cognitive dissonance induced in people that love this game enough to never want to violate the EULA.
Vague promises about "it won't be enforced" aren't really reassuring. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3971
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Muscaat wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.
Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it? This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but. Only if you are incredibly obtuse.
Jesus, it's like a bunch of little kids nitpicking their parents...
"but you said I can have desert" "I said you could have desert if you didin't get in trouble at school" "but you said I can have desert". To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
Two step wrote:As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices). Pretty much the identical concern I initially had. <3 My CSM |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
391
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
I get why the EULA is fuzzy, but i still don't know whats allowed with ISBoxer and what is not.
Probably needs a case by case ruling when some people exaggerate, but an example would still be something i like to see. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
269
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
ok well im disabling eve mon's uploader dont want to get banned |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
99
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:09:00 -
[66] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
The answer to all your questions is yes, it has always been yes. (presuming you mean illegal as in against the EULA)
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Finton Stack
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
You've mentioned EVEMON by name, now how about ISBOXER? Does using it breach EULA/ToS through keystroke broadcasting, mouse click broacasting, dll injection? Are players allowed to control multiple accounts from one user interface using broadcasts?
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3971
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:10:00 -
[68] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:I get why the EULA is fuzzy, but i still don't know whats allowed with ISBoxer and what is not.
Probably needs a case by case ruling when some people exaggerate, but an example would still be something i like to see. I think they were pretty clear.
If you only use ISBoxer to run multiple clients, nobody cares.
If you use it's other capabilities (parts of it can be used in a manner that is obviously a cheat) then they have reserved the right to ban you. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:10:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.
That would be great, but we were previously told in forum posts, that we wouldn't be busted because it wasn't against the EULA.
We're now being told that it's against the EULA and (in a forum post) we won't be busted. Oh also that forum posts by devs should be disregarded as official policy, in favour of what's in the EULA.
So next logical step is...
I'm going to stop cache-scraping as soon as I can disable the feature in EveMon. Unfortunately I've already been breaking the EULA - and the amnesty expired 3 days before the announcement.
Also this is arguably the most important point of today's announcement - but isn't in the dev blog - it's only on the linked Wiki page.
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Talon Jasra
Vectorum Exitium Alternative Realities
13
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:11:00 -
[70] - Quote
TIL a EULA can be retroactive. I shoot stuff for a living, are you made of stuff? |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
463
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:12:00 -
[71] - Quote
Minimax Zed wrote:Two step wrote:As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices). This. Also, I'm disappointed in CCP Stillman's lack of understanding of the cognitive dissonance induced in people that love this game enough to never want to violate the EULA. Vague promises about "it won't be enforced" aren't really reassuring. I'm sorry that this is how it's perceived. However the intent of clarifying this is to address in all honesty what our EULA says about specific items.
Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.
But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1896
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
Murder is illegal. Speeding is illegal.
CCP will bust you for murder. CCP will bust you for speeding while commiting murder.
If you're speeding, but on your way to the Dentist's office, it may or may not be enforced.
And without specifically saying it is "OK", CCP is trying to intimate that they are not looking for people speeding on their way to Walmart.
Clear as mud?
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
33
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:12:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Muscaat wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.
Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it? This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but. Only if you are incredibly obtuse.
For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".
That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.
I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.
And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.
It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can. |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
31
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:12:00 -
[74] - Quote
Big Jim Slade wrote:What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them?
Nope, no worries on that one. We are after the hackers, botters and the RMTers.
CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
285
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:12:00 -
[75] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
The answer to all your questions is yes, it has always been yes. (presuming you mean illegal as in against the EULA)
Perhaps you think the EULA is clear. To most people the EULA has been vague enough for them to continue with these activities in the hope that they were in a 'grey area'.
This is the first time it has been spelt out, and action threatened. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote: Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them.
No post on the forums by a dev can override what you agreed to in the EULA.
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Inepsa1987
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
50
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
I'm turning my evemon market uploader back on now that this clarification is out. Spaceship Pilot. |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
285
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too.
See? Vague. |
Selena Na'sharr
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:15:00 -
[79] - Quote
Selena Na'sharr wrote:What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :)) Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :) |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
466
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
Muscaat wrote:
For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".
That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.
I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.
And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.
It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.
Let me reiterate again. The EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This clarification is a response to the request of countless people who read a post by CCP Sreegs that claimed that it was technically against the EULA. This caused a lot of confusion, and we are here to clarify what he meant. Because he was right. Here's the post. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
202
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
So many people clueless as to how EULAs work ITT.
Here's a summary: 1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught; 2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is the only important distinction, not whether e.g. Cache scraping is "technically" against the EULA or not. Will you get banned for using a publicly distributed and otherwise legitimate helper program that cache scrapes? The answer is clearly no. Its not in CCPs interest to start stealthily banning such people. They will doubtless announce clearly that its not allowed (or even more likely, quietly contact the developers of those aps and ask them to stop including it as functionality) before taking any action against otherwise innocent/clueless players.
So stop getting your panties into a bunch over whether X is "technically" against the EULA and ask yourself "is this bad for Eve? Is it cheating? Is it unfair or broken? Does it evade an ingame limitation DELIBERATELY put there by CCP? ". If the answer to any of those is yes, then stop doing it. If not, then chill the **** out. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
492
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:17:00 -
[82] - Quote
Selena Na'sharr wrote:Selena Na'sharr wrote:What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :)) Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :) He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
144
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:19:00 -
[83] - Quote
There are parallels in real life, I guess. Certain interstate highways in the United States have posted speed limits, high and low (e.g. Speed Limit 55, Minimum 40). Traffic police won't enforce it against all drivers under normal circumstances, though, but will use a rule of thumb based on the ordinary flow of traffic - IE: if there's a traffic jam and everyone's reduced to 5 miles an hour, technically everyone's breaking the minimum speed limit, but it's impractical to sanction everyone caught in the traffic jam. So the cops use their discretion; they'll ticket someone going 15 in the passing lane during normal traffic, or 90 when the flow is going 65, but they'll focus on the dangerous ones and the outliers.
It's a bit worrisome that CCP is stating that they're simply going to use their discretion to overlook the violations caused by the EVEmon market scraper, rather than providing an EULA-compliant alternative and allowing worried people to get back within the bounds of the agreement, but that's the way it works in the real world as well, I suppose... "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
99
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:20:00 -
[84] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Quote:All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them. So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too? See? Vague.
If the spreadsheet gets it's data through cache scraping then yes.
If the data is manually inserted by the user then no. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
659
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:21:00 -
[85] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
Use some common sense FFS. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
34
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Let me reiterate again. The EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This clarification is a response to the request of countless people who read a post by CCP Sreegs that claimed that it was technically against the EULA. This caused a lot of confusion, and we are here to clarify what he meant. Because he was right. Here's the post. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. The logical conclusion, then, seems to be that all those who have developed cache reading technologies over the years should cease doing so, because while the letter of the EULA has not changed, the interpretation of that EULA has, and CCP are now threatening to ban those who read the game's cache files? |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
34
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:21:00 -
[87] - Quote
Muscaat wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Muscaat wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.
Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it? This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but. Only if you are incredibly obtuse. For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't". That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me. I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant. And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have. It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.
I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.
Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.
A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.
CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Selena Na'sharr
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
0
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Salpun wrote:Selena Na'sharr wrote:Selena Na'sharr wrote:What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :)) Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :) He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe I saw that, too. I overlooked the reply because he actually replied to someone who quoted me. ;) All good.
I've got no intentions of turning my keyboard into a bot. (why'd I pay a monthly fee just for my keyboard to have all the fun. ;)) |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
910
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:22:00 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Yes We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not CURRENTLY looking for EVEMON users WHO ARE BREAKING THE EULA AND COULD BE PUNISHED AT OUR DISCRETION. Basically, please don't worry.
FIXED Was there a granfathering of this warp to 0 ban? Or was it everyone that has used it in the past 1 year (or just last week? )
So if everyone now stops using EveMON & other cache scrappers will they escape the wrath of PERMAban or are they still subject to it they ever used it ex post facto this warning?
Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 slot 1, Mike Azariah slot 2 Disclaimer: CCP Bias is a fictional character. In case that some CCP Bias does exist,-áis he an "ex"-Goon? |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
285
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:22:00 -
[90] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
Use some common sense FFS.
Humor me and answer the questions.
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