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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
34
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:22:00 -
[91] - Quote
Lallante wrote: Here's a summary: 1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught; 2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is spot on, thank you. CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Minimax Zed
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
2
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:23:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:
Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.
CCP Stillman, I understand that you don't want to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA.
But why not have a discussion with CCP Legal to change the EULA to address something that the vast majority of the playerbase does? If it won't be enforced anyway, why have it in the EULA at all? |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:24:00 -
[93] - Quote
Marc Callan wrote:It's a bit worrisome that CCP is stating that they're simply going to use their discretion to overlook the violations caused by the EVEmon market scraper, rather than providing an EULA-compliant alternative and allowing worried people to get back within the bounds of the agreement, but that's the way it works in the real world as well, I suppose... Stillman is lobbying for a EULA-compliant method as well so we won't have anything to worry about.
Thankfully EveMon does no interaction with the client (aside from scraping market data to send to a third-party distributor) so it can't be mistaken for botting, so I'm much more at ease with my fate in this game. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots.
That may be, but your statements on the forum are what's wrong.
If the EULA says that cache-scraping is illegal because it's reverse engineering.
Then you should be stating as fact, that EveMon's cache scraping feature is against the EULA.
Whether or not you're currently enforcing that is not a consideration. You SHOULD NOT be posting statements on the forum that imply that violating the EULA in this particular way is actually OK.
Now I realise that saying EveMon breaks the rules is a PR problem. But what you should be doing is offering an amnesty for some *future* date that until that date you will offer an amnesty to EveMon users. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
910
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:25:00 -
[95] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal? Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal? Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal? Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal? Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal? Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
Use some common sense FFS.
lol this is EVE for FFS common sense is about as common as an honest man JUST ASK DIOGENES Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 slot 1, Mike Azariah slot 2 Disclaimer: CCP Bias is a fictional character. In case that some CCP Bias does exist,-áis he an "ex"-Goon? |
Cal Stantson
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
32
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:26:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Muscaat wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Muscaat wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.
Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it? This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but. Only if you are incredibly obtuse. For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't". That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me. I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant. And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have. It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can. I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way. Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game. A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.
Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
41
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:27:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Absolutely, yes. Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP. This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain. Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it. Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.
so can you explain to us why you don't do anything against this: http://i.imgur.com/kT9qs.jpg since it IS macro ?
and it leads to kills: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17365238 |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:27:00 -
[98] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote: So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?
See? Vague.
No because your spreadsheet is entirely out of the scope of what the EULA can cover. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
34
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:28:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:
I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.
Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.
A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.
Thanks for the reply. (Two dev replies on the same day - I feel privileged! ) |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:29:00 -
[100] - Quote
Cal Stantson wrote: Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.
And what he's saying is that the enforcement is following this line.
They're not out to get half the playerbase swept up in a ban; bad for business and all that. I really believe we have nothing to worry about on this front. |
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Kaeda Maxwell
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
191
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:30:00 -
[101] - Quote
Just for the record, CCP is perfectly within their right to ban you even if you don't violate the EULA.
Of course they're extremely unlikely to do so. But they don't actually need a cause at all, New Eden is their universe they can do with it as they please, which includes locking out our characters with no reason given if the mood ever strikes them. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13630
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
Marc Callan wrote:There are parallels in real life, I guess. Certain interstate highways in the United States have posted speed limits, high and low (e.g. Speed Limit 55, Minimum 40). Traffic police won't enforce it against all drivers under normal circumstances, though, but will use a rule of thumb based on the ordinary flow of traffic - IE: if there's a traffic jam and everyone's reduced to 5 miles an hour, technically everyone's breaking the minimum speed limit, but it's impractical to sanction everyone caught in the traffic jam. So the cops use their discretion; they'll ticket someone going 15 in the passing lane during normal traffic, or 90 when the flow is going 65, but they'll focus on the dangerous ones and the outliers. I'd throw in a much more precise example, which is the Swedish jaywalking laws.
In Sweden, it is illegal to walk against a red light. In Sweden, you will never be punished for walking against a red light, for the simple reason that no punishment exists for this offence. No fines, no marks in the protocol, no wrist-slaps GÇö nothing. It's not that sanctioning people is impractical GÇö it's downright impossible. In and of itself, the crime of jaywalking cannot be enforced because doing so serves no purpose. However, if you do walk against red and cars have to swerve out of the way to avoid you, you are the one who has broken the law and caused any (near)accidents GÇö any insurance disputes will hinge on the simple fact that you broke the law.
In short, rules are something completely separate from enforcement.
Same goes here: the rule is GÇ£no cache scrapingGÇ¥. The enforcement is GÇ£if you cache scrape to cheat, then we're going to stomp your colon; if not, who cares.GÇ¥ The rule is simply wide enough that there is no wiggle-room to get out of it, should you be caught cheating through the use of some kind of cache-scraping mechanism that does not interact with the game in any other way. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
31
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:34:00 -
[103] - Quote
June Ting wrote:One clarification question: is tailing chat logfiles (e.g. what evelocal.com does) considered acceptable? Still awaiting confirmation that chatlog scraping tools are permitted. Proud independent player. I support Ali Aras for CSM 8! http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com/csm8 My votes: Ali > core > Jester > Monk > Nathan > Mangala > Storm > Arget > Malcanis > Korvin > Trebor > Mike > Roc > Fuzzysteve |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:34:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Lallante wrote: Here's a summary: 1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught; 2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is spot on, thank you.
No you're still missing the point.
2 DOESN'T MATTER
What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.
Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4816
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
ITT exceptionally thick people and/or botting/RMT scum. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
391
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:36:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote: Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,
Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.
GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:38:00 -
[107] - Quote
Thanks for this Dev Blog. I am happy that my Synergy is OK for me to use now.
I hope the third party markets tools don't suffer too badly from this statement of the EULA. I really appreciate your more open and sympathetic communication of your design intent here. I know now, or feel more comfortable now, that your process is not arbitary and thus not prone to false positives. I know that you are not on a power trip, or just "Doing your job" and don't care, BUT are passionate and care for us gamers, and that it's your care for the gamers that gives you motivation to act against the cheaters.
You've stated that using our tools isn't going to get us banned. And that this stuff will only result in a ban if it is percieved to be used to harm the game in some way. I infer that "harm" in most instances would be non-human interaction and automation. You also went as far as to state that "running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts". That quoted statement fixed all the confusion from the first scary post. And I beleive that your more freindly tone, (less officious), fixes or should fix concerns over this one.
Thanks for this! |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
391
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:38:00 -
[108] - Quote
Also
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9 GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2401
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:39:00 -
[109] - Quote
I want to take the extraordinary and unprecedented step of making a serious, non-snide, non-troll comment.
It's good to see CCP taking steps to stop botters and client modifications, and it's critical that they do. Cheating really hoses a game experience. Why invest any effort into the game if, as CCP seems to have done in the past, certain groups can amass wealth / power through automated scripts, etc? People want to play other people... that's why people play online at all. Would you want to play chess against someone who was getting move advice from IBM's deep blue? Nobody wants to play the long sov game if the table is being tilted by CCP. In like kind, nobody will want to play DUST if people are glitching, superjumping, or using "standby" network exploits. Bring down the ban hammer. Hard. That's all I have to say.
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Andy Landen
Air Initiative Mercenaries
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:40:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Hosedna wrote:The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market ! Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter.
Look, you can't go and say that stuff we routinely do is against the EULA and that we should live in constant fear of getting at least a 30 day ban and at worse a permanent ban on our accounts just because at this time you chose not to enforce a particular thing. If you want to "clarify" anything, then clarify this: Should players have any fear of cache scraping or not? Should they have any fear of using EveMon or not? Be clear on that or retract all this posturing and then figure out what you really want to say before you come back to us?
So is ISBOXER OK or not? And don't give us any unclear answer like: No, but we will enforce at our discretion.
Are you actually scanning our system processes beyond the Eve client? Are you able to read memory outside of the Eve client? And don't give us any BS about not being able to answer due to concerns about revealing your security strategies, because these are our computers, not yours, and our data belongs to us and not to you. We all have lots of "data" that we don't want just anyone snooping around and "looking" at. And by data, I don't just mean pictures and by looking I don't just mean viewing, but also scanning. Are you guys looking outside of the Eve process? We have a right to get a "clarified" answer on this one. |
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Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:41:00 -
[111] - Quote
Tippia wrote: In short, rules are something completely separate from enforcement.
Same goes here: the rule is GÇ£no cache scrapingGÇ¥. The enforcement is GÇ£if you cache scrape to cheat, then we're going to stomp your colon; if not, who cares.GÇ¥ The rule is simply wide enough that there is no wiggle-room to get out of it, should you be caught cheating through the use of some kind of cache-scraping mechanism that does not interact with the game in any other way.
This. Yep. No wonder you have 13K+ likes :) |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
37
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:43:00 -
[112] - Quote
Entity wrote:CCP Peligro wrote: Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,
Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.
Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.
We've stated our intent numerous times, and I'll do it again; the policies are in place to protect the well being of the game. We'll use these policies to get rid of cheaters, and I'm sure you don't want them around any more than we do. CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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Esmilis99
LDK Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:43:00 -
[113] - Quote
People in here are very naive, with a few exceptions.
GM's statement "yeah its illegal, but we wont enforce it" is worth jack ****. They can easily come out the next day and switch it to "oh yeah it was always illegal, here's your ban"
Seems clear that most of you never dealt with contracts and how it will be used against you in the future.
And GMs have a long tradition of overturning each others "decisions", so anything GM says shouldn't be interpreted as truth.
Allways follow the EULA, thats the only document that has any weight. I'm turning off my EVEMON market scraper, and strongly suggest you do the same, if you have any sense. |
None ofthe Above
508
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:43:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'? Yes We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.
Not that I use any of these tools. I actually prefer to play the game.
But isn't this eerily familiar to what was said about ISBoxer a while back?
This is the problem with selective enforcement. Vote, you apathetic bastards!-á -> http://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/vote/ CSM 8 Endorsements: Ali Aras, Malcanis, Mike Azaria, Psychotic Monk, Trebor Daehdoow, Ripard Teg |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
910
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:44:00 -
[115] - Quote
Cal Stantson wrote: Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.
Its not guns that kill people nor the finger that pulls the guns trigger that kills people... its the bullet that goes thru peoples heads that kills people
Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 slot 1, Mike Azariah slot 2 Disclaimer: CCP Bias is a fictional character. In case that some CCP Bias does exist,-áis he an "ex"-Goon? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3973
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:44:00 -
[116] - Quote
Fade Toblack wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:Lallante wrote: Here's a summary: 1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught; 2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is spot on, thank you. No you're still missing the point. 2 DOESN'T MATTER What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA. Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to. There were questions as to how this was to be enforced. We were given a Dev blog specifically aimed at how enforcement would be handled.
If, even though you have been specifically told it's okay, you choose to not use EvEMon that's fine. Nobody cares. But the fact remains you have been specifically told the overriding goal of EULA and TOS enforcement is to use what is specified in those documents is to catch botters, RMT, and other specifically cheat oriented activities... and NOT to go after folks using common handy activities.
It really doesn't matter what was discussed in the past, this is your official word on the subject at this time. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
220
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:45:00 -
[117] - Quote
Minimax Zed wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:
Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.
CCP Stillman, I understand that you don't want to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA. But why not have a discussion with CCP Legal to change the EULA to address something that the vast majority of the playerbase does? If it won't be enforced anyway, why have it in the EULA at all? Not to put too fine a point on it, but saying "it is what it is" is a cop-out, IMO. Do you have a suggestion for an exception clause they can add to the EULA that will allow nice people to do what they want but will prevent bad people from exploiting the new loophole?
Amarrad - Amarr language project |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
203
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
Fade Toblack wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:Lallante wrote: Here's a summary: 1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught; 2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is spot on, thank you. No you're still missing the point. 2 DOESN'T MATTER What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA. Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.
As an actual, RL lawyer I'm going to have to break it to you that this is bollocks. In practice CCP can ban you for no reason at all and you have no legal redress whatsoever |
Terminator 2
Omega Boost
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:46:00 -
[119] - Quote
Just out of curiosity:
I live in a country where the EULA has no legal binding if not presented legally correct aka during establishing a contract with the seller of the product.
This means any EULA presented during and installation process or during using the software after it was already bought is not binding and legally void.
I am however sure that CCP has the right to impose rules and regulatory to their game. But they should do so in a legal way.
Btw. the counry i am speaking of is Germany, the land of legally void EULAs. :) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3975
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
Esmilis99 wrote:People in here are very naive, with a few exceptions.
GM's statement "yeah its illegal, but we wont enforce it" is worth jack ****. They can easily come out the next day and switch it to "oh yeah it was always illegal, here's your ban"
Seems clear that most of you never dealt with contracts and how it will be used against you in the future.
And GMs have a long tradition of overturning each others "decisions", so anything GM says shouldn't be interpreted as truth.
Allways follow the EULA, thats the only document that has any weight. I'm turning off my EVEMON market scraper, and strongly suggest you do the same, if you have any sense. More often it's a history of EvE players interpretting GH statements any way they wish to further their own agenda... or for simple trolling purposes. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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