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Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
304
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Posted - 2013.05.31 20:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Long time no bump. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.05.31 20:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Draqone an'Alreigh wrote:Give us special missions we can freely decline every 3 normal missions where you would ask us to use Logi, scrams a certain ship or a certain kind of ammo. There already are missions like this in tutorials so it IS possible and wouldn't take that much development.
Basically:
1) Improve NPC AI in all missions 2) Give us some bonus missions with - NPC companions that we can rep/create logi chains with/boost - NPC enemies that require a certain trick to kill
Pretty much this, plz. Seriously. If Eve is "Real" then why the hell aren't the NPCs doing their own thing? It always bugged me that game developers refuse to make complex or subtle AI mechanics. It's like a bane to them, but in reality for the most part it's just a glorified FSM with maybe a stack to make it into a PDA. Don't worry about the acronyms there if you don't have a compsci degree. Just know that those terms go back to the 1950s/60s during the genesis of modern computing. So, that means the essential concepts are already there, it's just programmers (game devs as well) are too damn lazy to use them. It was hard enough to get programmers to create GUIs, packet-switched networking, and etc. I swear at this rate we'll have self-driving cars when the universe has expended its last bit of hydrogen as stars. /rant |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
310
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Posted - 2013.06.15 18:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Post-Odyssey bump. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS strain SELKURK
2
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Posted - 2013.06.16 01:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
I see you frequently on the help chat channel and have grown to respect your opinions and consider you after Keith and Azmorian the most helpful person in the help channel, that being said....
There is a belief that everyone that plays EVE is someday dreaming of pvp fame and fortune, I am here to set the record straight there are many of us that NEVER want to pvp, not today, not tomorrow, not 10yrs from now if we are still playing.
With that in mind, changing the game to suit the pew, pew crowd (a general slide the game has already been taking a long time as far as i can tell) does nothing but hurt those of us only interested in pve.
We DON"T want low/nullsec and we would like our pve missions left as pve challenges. Let those interested in PVP go to the RvB crowd and learn as so many have before, there really is no substitute for learning pvp from real players and destroying pve to meet a pvp goal is selfish. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
314
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Posted - 2013.06.16 17:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:*snip for space*
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and you bring up a good point I hadn't considered.
The change is not intended to make missions PVP style (although some of that is required), but simply to make PVP FITTED SHIPS viable mission runners. Emphasis on viable. A PVE specialized ship would still be optimal, and theres no way to change that because people will discover what optimal is and adapt to it. There are two goals that I hope to accomplish with this change: to make missions more fun (face it, they are boring and predictable; and they are not a challenge), and more importantly, to pave the way for changes to low and/or nullsec. Changes that, I hope, would allow PVE people to live there. EVE is a pvp game- whether you're pew pewing, competing on the market, or dodging people that are hunting you while you make piles of isk, everything in EVE involves dealing with other players trying to achieve their own goals at your expense. This is the first change in what I hope will be a world-opening revamp of lowsec, turning it into a space with a robust community (PVE and PVP) living there, instead of the handful of pirates circle jerking to each other's killboards that it's limited to now. (see this thread for a discussion of this).
I don't want to see missions moved away from a PVE focus, or from a solo focus. These are important gameplay areas that need to be preserved. Want I want is simply to see the gap between PVE fittings and PVP ship fittings become smaller. The gameplay that is opened up by this change is immense, for both PVE and PVP players, and that's what it's meant for. As a gateway to greater things. Also, missions are boring, and due for an overhaul anyway. This is the ideal time to get started.
PS. I'm going to be unsubbed for a while due to RL. If someone would bump this thread once a week or so for the rest of the month I'd appreciate it. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Praxis Ginimic
348
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Posted - 2013.06.16 21:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
Instead of making missions "like" pvp why not actually make them pvp?
I want to see a new set of agents. PvP agents! When you accept a mission some one else is accepting your anti-mission. Both pilots are sent to the same mission pocket to retrieve the same object (or whatever) and have to duke it out then race back home before their opponent reships.
Maybe one pilot is sent out to defend a convoy while the other must destroy it.
Even better, once you start to accept "PvP missions" others can be sent to your current location on assassination mission. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
174
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Posted - 2013.06.16 23:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Xavier Thorm wrote:Some relatively simple changes to make PvE "more like PvP" in a good way.
1). The "silence the informer" type missions where your goal is to go kill a specific guy could have relatively weak NPCs other than your particular target, and have that target actually warp off if you don't chase him down and scram him quickly.
2). Have fewer missions force you to kill every NPC in an area, and instead make the target a building (there's almost always buindings in that type of mission). Alternatively, make the goal "clear this area out" and have the NPCs warp out (thus triggering mission success) if you are slaughtering them.
3). For nullsec, have less NPCs overall, but more faction/officer spawns (yes I know this would lower the value of their loot) and also have those spawn move around and try to avoid dying. Possible alternative/addendum. Remove bounties for officers/faction spawns (or even all NPCs) and give them a drop like tags or personal effects that must be collected and sold to CONCORD or the Empires (or enemy pirate factions).
1. You are tyhing down the servers with missions now generating 2 or more times the amount of deadspace. Your rats exists in that space because that is where ccp is staging them. For them to leave they need a new deadspace. Belts rats have this feature becasue thier code says if player A is taking too long to kill them, go to belt n+1. They have code to hit belts only.
The answer is not probing them down to not have more deadspace. If zor was to leave the mission room and hide out somewhere else in system you are now probing down every raven in system and hitting each contact. There is already a careeer in eve that does this...its called being a vulture/ninjya loot and salvager. Its already fun dealing with them. having 5 people land in your deadspace over times and saying "oops, sorry, I am looking for my run away zor" would be needlessly annoying.
2. Exists in game already. Lots of mssions can be blitzed by the wise choice of killing only certian rats and or raiding certian buildings. I can do blockade in minutes flat for example. I only hit trigger rats, speed tank the rest of the ships until I get the final trigger rat and pop him then leave. This teaches 2 things. To counter damps you have to close to where you cna actually target a ship. And bring the right tool for the job. Hac/ t3//pve spec CS/BC can speed tank this mission and close to kill faster. A bs moving slow as hell a poor choice against damps...its a no crapper they take forever to run this mission.
3. Officer spawns already try to run away. If you take too long to kill them they fly off and disappear. And why would loss of bounty and use of tags be a good thing? They already drop tags...and they can be worthless. I have an officer tag from an officer kill. I guess no love for raysere....the tag i got from him is worth crap isk. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
315
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Posted - 2013.06.17 03:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Praxis Ginimic wrote:Instead of making missions "like" pvp why not actually make them pvp?
I want to see a new set of agents. PvP agents! When you accept a mission some one else is accepting your anti-mission. Both pilots are sent to the same mission pocket to retrieve the same object (or whatever) and have to duke it out then race back home before their opponent reships.
Maybe one pilot is sent out to defend a convoy while the other must destroy it.
Even better, once you start to accept "PvP missions" others can be sent to your current location on assassination mission.
This already exists, more or less. It's called Faction Warfare. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Dr Ted Kaper
Patriot Security Services
17
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Posted - 2013.06.17 03:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:I like how missions are. A relaxing activity to make ISK.
Instead of a questionable improvement to solo-able missions, I would rather like to see new group activities for small gangs (2-4 ships). Let's let mining and industry be relaxing, if your gonna shoot something it should be a little less relaxing than mining a rock. As for non soloable missions perhaps lvl 5s can be moved.to hi sec: without a carrier it requires teamwork |
Dr Ted Kaper
Patriot Security Services
17
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Posted - 2013.06.17 04:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:*snip for space* Thanks for the vote of confidence, and you bring up a good point I hadn't considered. The change is not intended to make missions PVP style (although some of that is required), but simply to make PVP FITTED SHIPS viable mission runners. Emphasis on viable. A PVE specialized ship would still be optimal, and theres no way to change that because people will discover what optimal is and adapt to it. There are two goals that I hope to accomplish with this change: to make missions more fun (face it, they are boring and predictable; and they are not a challenge), and more importantly, to pave the way for changes to low and/or nullsec. Changes that, I hope, would allow PVE people to live there. EVE is a pvp game- whether you're pew pewing, competing on the market, or dodging people that are hunting you while you make piles of isk, everything in EVE involves dealing with other players trying to achieve their own goals at your expense. This is the first change in what I hope will be a world-opening revamp of lowsec, turning it into a space with a robust community (PVE and PVP) living there, instead of the handful of pirates circle jerking to each other's killboards that it's limited to now. (see this thread for a discussion of this). I don't want to see missions moved away from a PVE focus, or from a solo focus. These are important gameplay areas that need to be preserved. Want I want is simply to see the gap between PVE fittings and PVP ship fittings become smaller. The gameplay that is opened up by this change is immense, for both PVE and PVP players, and that's what it's meant for. As a gateway to greater things. Also, missions are boring, and due for an overhaul anyway. This is the ideal time to get started. PS. I'm going to be unsubbed for a while due to RL. If someone would bump this thread once a week or so for the rest of the month I'd appreciate it.
This could devalue a number of items and even make some ships and items obsolete. Also this walks a fine line of seriously disrupting the difference between exploration, missions, pvp, etc. If missions are unpredictable than what is exploration? Also at this point in the game almost everything is predictable given enough research into a topic, only emergent gameplay is unpredictable. Ultimatley this would be a change that takes a lot of planning because there are many strings attached
Edit: Details and all the potential issues aside I like the idea...
Edit 2: perhaps missions are fine... Just change exploration PvE and make that stuff more like the type of missions described |
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Colt Blackhawk
The Amarrian Expendables
160
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Posted - 2013.06.17 04:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
We need NPCs as kill mission targets that you need to scram to destroy them. Would force every PVE lad to have a scrambler or disruptor. Additionally we need less NPCs but stronger, with less ewar spam, scram and web. Maybe even something like an ENDBOSS. And longer missions would be fine. Actually it is dock->take mission>do mission->dock.... too much time wasted with travel.
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Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
37
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Posted - 2013.06.17 05:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
Just fix one dumb thing the AI does. It's hatred towards ewar. I understand ewaring the NPCs will make them angry.
However, warp scrambling/neuting/jamming the ratter shouldn't make them immediately switch targets. That behavior seems to defy logic at its core concept:
"Hey, there's this big scary battleship killing us all! Oh look, a cruiser warped in and is warp scrambling our bad guy. Now he's jamming him, kill the bastard who is trying to help us!" Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
316
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Posted - 2013.06.17 06:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dr Ted Kaper wrote: This could devalue a number of items and even make some ships and items obsolete. Also this walks a fine line of seriously disrupting the difference between exploration, missions, pvp, etc. If missions are unpredictable than what is exploration? Also at this point in the game almost everything is predictable given enough research into a topic, only emergent gameplay is unpredictable. Ultimatley this would be a change that takes a lot of planning because there are many strings attached
Edit: Details and all the potential issues aside I like the idea...
Edit 2: perhaps missions are fine... Just change exploration PvE and make that stuff more like the type of missions described
Agreed. The purpose of this thread is to discuss those very details. As for changing the value of items (I assume you mean deadspace mods in particular) that's not necessarily bad. The EVE market changes often, and the alert trader can make large profits off of any change. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS strain SELKURK
4
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Posted - 2013.06.18 05:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:We need NPCs as kill mission targets that you need to scram to destroy them. Would force every PVE lad to have a scrambler or disruptor. Additionally we need less NPCs but stronger, with less ewar spam, scram and web. Maybe even something like an ENDBOSS. And longer missions would be fine. Actually it is dock->take mission>do mission->dock.... too much time wasted with travel.
No, actually we don't need this. This is precisely what i was explaining to the OP, if you want to learn to tackle and kill things for 'pvp' training don't waste your time doing pve stuff, go look up RvB and really learn pvp.
All pvp-ish missions are going to teach you is really poor pvp technique which the then poor individuals at RvB are going to have to train you NOT to do because real people are far more crafty than any AI produced in the next 100 years is even going to come close to emulating.
It's simple: fight AI to learn to pve and fight REAL players to learn to pvp.
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Plaude Pollard
Crimson Cartel
96
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Posted - 2013.06.18 07:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Yes, I like this concept. It would be difficult to balance but PvE and PvP should be brought closer together. I would also like to see some actual PvP tutorials in the starter systems. Technically, I believe we already have the basics. The Advanced Military Tutorials cover the fundamentals of using EWAR and Logistics-modules. But yeah, some more challenging (and brain-demanding) PvE would be nice. New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of your choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
215
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Posted - 2013.06.18 20:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
A 'coming of age' mission would be good, which you can only qualify for with the right certificates and a correctly fitted ship. The player then gets to go up against a genuinely deadly npc adversary that behaves like a pvp player.
If the player completes the mission by killing the adversary they should then get a message telling them that they are now ready to face other capsuleers in the world of eve whilst wishing them 'best of luck' etc. Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
316
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Posted - 2013.07.01 04:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
bump - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
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