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Ap01110n
Creative Ventures
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
What are the chances that feighters will get an update soon?
T1 Freigthers were put in the game before BCs, T2 guns etc, and have never been changed, even though the environment has become increasingly hostile. They are insanely easy to kill for their cost/size etc on highsec gates even not autopiloting.
Jump Freighters are slightly harder to kill, but even though they get racial resistance bonuses, the great mass of their HP lies in structure, with no dmg control.
Are there any plans to change this? It should be a relatively quick and easy fix with little to no side-effects on pvp or pve (actual pvp - not talking about ganking) |
Dave Stark
2715
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
and in which way are any of the freighters redundant and/or broken?
ships aren't updated for the fun of it, they're updated because they have an issue. such as being completely overshadowed by other ships and/or being useless. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1107
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:What are the chances that feighters will get an update soon?
T1 Freigthers were put in the game before BCs, T2 guns etc, and have never been changed, even though the environment has become increasingly hostile. They are insanely easy to kill for their cost/size etc on highsec gates even not autopiloting.
Jump Freighters are slightly harder to kill, but even though they get racial resistance bonuses, the great mass of their HP lies in structure, with no dmg control.
Are there any plans to change this? It should be a relatively quick and easy fix with little to no side-effects on pvp or pve (actual pvp - not talking about ganking)
And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...? |
Ap01110n
Creative Ventures
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
they arent redudant and/or broken, and they cannot be overshadowed by any other ship class because they are the only ship that fills their role.
The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it).
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Ap01110n
Creative Ventures
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...?
Buff the freigthers to have more HP or add a built in dmg control or a single lowslot. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
16
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.
Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will. Save the drones! |
Ap01110n
Creative Ventures
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Ap01110n wrote:Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.
Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will.
In practice, they do die. Especially when you call in concord on a different gate before engaging. |
Draconus Lofwyr
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
41
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Posted - 2013.04.21 18:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
the single low slot or rig slot will never happen, as that would tip the cargo hold potential over capital ship size. mid slots mabey, high slots, not likely, imagine the carnage of a smartbombing freighter near jita 4-4 undock?
i could see some changes, give freighters a cargo mode and a speed mode, full cargo and crawler speed, or much reduced capacity for better align/warp/top speed for those times you only have a few m3 of higher value cargo to carry.
But the best way to prevent freighter ganks is a fleetmate in a command ship giving the appropriate boosts with remote repping drones. problem solved. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1108
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 19:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...?
Buff the freigthers to have more HP or add a built in dmg control or a single lowslot.
And the reason that you did not just post in one of the numerous other threads suggesting exactly this is...?
And the reason this is needed is...?
And this will be balanced by...? |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
17
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Posted - 2013.04.21 19:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:ExAstra wrote:Ap01110n wrote:Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.
Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will. In practice, they do die. Especially when you call in concord on a different gate before engaging. My statement still stands. It's guaranteed that they will die (if they do not then CCP considers it an exploit and you can be reimbursed). It's NOT guaranteed that you will die. You can have a friend rep you, use bounties, try a mercenary corp, fly with a fleet, etc. etc.
The options available to you are countless. Your choosing not to use them is just that: your choice. Save the drones! |
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Ap01110n
Creative Ventures
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 19:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
And the reason that you did not just post in one of the numerous other threads suggesting exactly this is...?
And the reason this is needed is...?
And this will be balanced by...?
1) Didnt see any recently
2) See post 4
3) Its already unbalanced, this would bring balance
Seems like redundant / rhetorical questions... |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2275
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 20:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). The "cheap ship" thing is actually false. If anything... suicide ganking freighters has become MORE expensive despite the introduction of Tier 3s.
Before Tier 3 battlecruisers people used Tempests and Brutixes... which, at the time, were respectively going for about 75 to 80 mil and 30 to 45 mil each... to gank "big" ships Also remember that insurance still paid out even if you suicide ganked. That meant no matter what the outcome of the gank was, you would have lost little beyond a bit of security status and pride.
Then Tier 3 battlecruisers were introduced... insurance was removed if you were CONCORDED... and mineral prices rose sharply. Gankers did immediately see the potential in Tier 3s... but with the removal of insurance for suicide ganking they would have to bear the full cost of the loss... and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up.
Ap01110n wrote:Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it) Why not? Even though cost is not a reliable metric for power in this game... having to use almost 1 billion ISK worth of ships to kill a ship hull worth 1.4 bil seems about fair. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Narffy
Dominus Imperium Extreme Prejudice.
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 22:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:the single low slot or rig slot will never happen, as that would tip the cargo hold potential over capital ship size CCP has added a flag for cap ships like isCapitalShip and they can easily check for this flag and prevent people from transporting cap ships in freighters now days.
EVE has changed quite a bit since Freighters were introduced. Now that CCP is balancing slot layouts for all ship classes, it is only right that they visit Freighters and Jump Freighters. Shuttles have as many slots as these capital ships have. Their slots and rigs should be balanced with other capital ships. EVE is suppose to be a sandbox with all sorts of possibilities / optionsand freighters are currently out of line with this sandbox philosophy. |
Dave Stark
2716
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ap01110n wrote:they arent redudant and/or broken, and they cannot be overshadowed by any other ship class because they are the only ship that fills their role.
The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it).
"they haven't been changed since before red moon rising" implies that they're working as intended and are fine. if it's not broken, don't fix it. i further this idea based on the fact that you've even admitted they don't need fixing in the first line of what i've just quoted.
sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so. |
Felsusguy
Archimedes RD Company
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up.. True, but the depending on the items being dropped the return increased as well. How droll. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
982
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 01:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up.. True, but the depending on the items being dropped the return increased as well.
Oh please, before 1400 volley, then nados, ganking isn't nearly as cheap as it is now. Stop whinning. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 06:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.
lol what a bs go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed , this alone prooves how wrong you are |
Dave Stark
2726
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 08:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Dave Stark wrote: sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.
lol what a bs go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed , this alone prooves how wrong you are
and? that means they aren't profitable and thus are irrelevant to this discussion. we're talking about being ganked for profit.
please, in future, read before you post. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
245
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Posted - 2013.04.22 08:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lessons:
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose 2. if a freighter can be ganked by ships worth about 1 billion isk, then carry less than a billion in your cargo. There, gank unprofitable, only bastards/emergent gameplay is left to consider :D |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1321
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 09:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
So, what you're saying is, the fact that it takes a minimum of 15-16 people (in a 0.5 system, far more in higher security) , in specifically fit tier 3 battlecruisers, coordinating their attacks precisely to avoid the crippling effect of CONCORD, to kill 1 guy (who may or may not be actually playing the game at that moment) in a freighter/jump freighter is unfair....
to the 1 guy.
Might wanna think a bit on that. |
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 10:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Dave Stark wrote: sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.
lol what a bs go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed , this alone prooves how wrong you are and? that means they aren't profitable and thus are irrelevant to this discussion. we're talking about being ganked for profit. please, in future, read before you post. hey dumby , op doesnt talk about killing freighters for profit but freighter suicide killing in high sec ,so neither we pls go reread first post
so those kills are perfectly relevant to this topic , and everybody can see how easy to kill these freighters became, they are just outdated and should be rebalanced, and as other said , people only use freighter as there are no other options to choose from even t2 freighters got ganked http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17429176 165m in cargo ... |
Dave Stark
2731
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 10:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Dave Stark wrote: sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.
lol what a bs go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed , this alone prooves how wrong you are and? that means they aren't profitable and thus are irrelevant to this discussion. we're talking about being ganked for profit. please, in future, read before you post. hey dumby , op doesnt talk about killing freighters for profit but freighter suicide killing in high sec ,so neither we pls go reread first post so those kills are perfectly relevant to this topic , and everybody can see how easy to kill these freighters became, they are just outdated and should be rebalanced, and as other said , people only use freighter as there are no other options to choose from even t2 freighters got ganked http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17429176 165m in cargo ...
hey dumby, the post i quoted was specifically talking about killing freighters for profit. please. read before you post. i only say it so you stop making yourself look like a complete dolt.
congratulations you linked a burn jita kill, what's your point? burn jita isn't done for profit, which is what i was discussing (not that you know that, because you flat out refuse to read what has been posted and insist on posting your own irrelevant drivel) |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
307
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 10:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Lessons:
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose 2. if a freighter can be ganked by ships worth about 1 billion isk, then carry less than a billion in your cargo. There, gank unprofitable, only bastards/emergent gameplay is left to consider :D 1. nobody said this is the case 2.they carried less than 1bill , still got ganked, so your point is completly false bastards/emergent gameplay? thats why it should be addressed quickly |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1411
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote: bastards/emergent gameplay? thats why it should be addressed quickly
Emergent gameplay? That's kind of the point
also, this One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1284
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Ap01110n wrote:ExAstra wrote:Ap01110n wrote:Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.
Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will. In practice, they do die. Especially when you call in concord on a different gate before engaging. My statement still stands. It's guaranteed that they will die (if they do not then CCP considers it an exploit and you can be reimbursed). It's NOT guaranteed that you will die. You can have a friend rep you, use bounties, try a mercenary corp, fly with a fleet, etc. etc. The options available to you are countless. Your choosing not to use them is just that: your choice.
But but...:effort: Why should I be forced to make friends or take steps to protect myself in an MMO that emulates and dark, dangerous future where demigods with weapons of mass destruction roam?
CCP-mom please make me safe!! [/sarcasm]
FFS, it's not hard to protect a freighter in highsec. You want a challenge, try flying a level 5 system upgrade through nullsec sometime.
(Also, CCP, can freighters have one highslot? For a cyno? ) Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. Twitter --á@DeVeldrin |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
129
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Lessons:
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose 2. if a freighter can be ganked by ships worth about 1 billion isk, then carry less than a billion in your cargo. There, gank unprofitable, only bastards/emergent gameplay is left to consider :D 1. nobody said this is the case 2.they carried less than 1bill , still got ganked, so your point is completly false bastards/emergent gameplay? thats why it should be addressed quickly
ummm. looking at the timestamp on the kill that is looking to be right around the time of burn jita 2. Perimeter is real close to jita. When jita gets gate locked due to high load, people who can't make it into jita jsut don't go damn....guess we'll go back home again. they set up shop in the outlying systems.
That KM is loaded with 0.0 associated entities. they trravelled far for the event, some I imagine ratted like champs to clean up some sec status. Basically....they came out to kill crap. If not in jita well perimeter close enough to kill time till jita could be entered.
That ship should not have been anywhere near jita at the time of the event the tl;dr.
I was toolng about in a damn rifter to see the event when lower population. It was not in an expensive clone jsut in case. the concord swarms were nice. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 15:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:T1 Freigthers were put in the game before BCs, T2 guns etc, and have never been changed, even though the environment has become increasingly hostile. They are insanely easy to kill for their cost/size etc on highsec gates even not autopiloting.
Jump Freighters are slightly harder to kill, but even though they get racial resistance bonuses, the great mass of their HP lies in structure, with no dmg control.
Are there any plans to change this? It should be a relatively quick and easy fix with little to no side-effects on pvp or pve (actual pvp - not talking about ganking)
T1 Freightors are exactly the way they should be right now, no change needed AT ALL.
Quote:The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it).
Dessys, Cruisers, BCs and even BSs have been ganking T1 Freighters since, forever. Tier 3 BCs (lets face it, you mean the Talos) are certainly more dangerous but not as dangerous as BSs, just somewhat cheaper. It costs roughly 130 mil for a fully T2 fit Talos (and then 6-8+ of those) to gank a T1 Freighter. that means it's only a profit to them if you are carrying somewhere north of 480 mil (including salvaging their/your ship, retrieving their mods that didn't get destroyed/your loot).
As for the Jump Freighter, I actually agree. The bonus resists are almost useless as the bulk of that added EHP is in Structure. I do NOT however agree with adding ANY Rig/Module slots on either. What I would like to see CCP do is change the way each Jump Freighter gets said EHP. For example Caldari/Minmatar would have much higher shield HP to go with their resists and Amarr/Gallente would have much higher Armor HP for their resists. To do this CCP could then reduce the Structure HP by a ton, maybe half or more. So you would take the current JF from roughly 360K EHP to maybe 400K (not a huge change, and still gankable), just adjust where the actual HP lies. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
563
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
No amount of repping will save you against an alpha attack.
Fleeting with an off grid booster can increase your ehp, but OGB is getting nerfed.
A fleet mate can web you into faster warp, but a good gank fleet will still catch you.
Bounties do nothing to save a freighter, in fact putting bounties on the gankers will only make you a bigger target.
A merc corp can do nothing. What war dec the gankers corp? Many of these are ganker alts in NPC corps. Mercs can not help against that.
You can fly with your cargo only half full to keep your loot value low. And pray they have their eye on a more valuable target. But this is relying on luck more than skill.
It has been asked what will be added to the game to balance an increase to a freighters tank. Well lets see more powerful weapons that do more DPS. Say T2 weapons. Ships with better damage bonuses, New BC class ships that can fit large guns, Market inflation making cargo that was worth well under 1 billion isk a couple years ago, worth nearly 2 billion now.
But wait, we already have all these things, so what is my point? Well, All these things have been added to EVE since freighters came into the game. Yet freighters have received nothing to balance these changes. In this case it is the inactivity of CCP that has created the imbalance.
Freighter have been in EVE for several years now, and have not been touched since they were added, yet many other game changes have affected then making them effectively weaker. 3-4 years ago it would have been 100% impossible to gank a freighter with a fleet worth only half the value of the freighter hull. Freighters are worth between 1.5 and 1.9 billion isk currently. Yet they can be ganked with a fleet loss of only 650-800 million isk. Basically half the value of the freighter hull.
4 years ago freighters were only worth about 600 million isk. There was no way in hell even with insurance payouts on the battleship hulls that you could gank a freighter with a fleet worth less than the value of the freighter hull, let alone half that value. yet so many pro gankers insist nothing has changed. The truth is freighters have not changed, but every thing else has.
Lets consider a military comparison. In WW II they had APC's that would carry solders and supplies to the front lines. These vehicles were armor plated, when they were built most of the small arms they would encounter would simply bounce off, they had great defense and survivability. 10 years later weapons technology had grown to the point where even small arms could penetrate this once adequate armor. The APC itself had not changed but the weapons used against it had.
What is the solution to this problem? Would not the logical solution be to upgrade the armor on these APC's so they could survive against the new weapons they encountered. Simple logic, something any military in the world would do without question. Yet in EVE this idea is thought of as ludicrous, and laughed at as not needed. yes lets let the backbone of EVE industry be reduced in effectiveness with each change to combat ships we get, but never bother to address the imbalance it has created.
Simple facts;
-When freighter were introduced to the game putting a fleet together to gank them would cost more than the freighter hull was worth. No T2 guns, much weaker battleships, no T2 ships, No Battlecruisers, only battleship with much lower DPS than we have now.
- Currently a freighter can be ganked by a fleet worth less than have the value of its hull. We have battlecruisers that can use large weapons, we have T2 weapons that are much more powerful, Combat ships in general have gotten a significant increase in DPS since freighter were introduced. Yet freighters have remained the same.
These are not my opinions these are facts. Facts that have been proven repeatedly. Freighters need a balance pass, and I am sure they will get it once the combat ships are done. They will still be gankable, but not by a fleet worth only half the value of the freighter hull.
If buffing the freighters tank is not anb option, Fine, then reduce the building requirements of the freighters to bring there value down to the 650-800 million isk value of the fleet needed to gank them. Freighters will be cheaper to replace, and there will be more targets out there for you gankers. A win win. Don't bother spouting any crap about market swings and mineral prices. These things will affect the ganker ships as much as they will affect freighters. The balance a freighter should have, is that it should take a fleet worth at least the value of the freighter hull to gank it. This can be done by either buffing the freighters tank, or reducing its build cost, or a combination of the two. Personally I believe reducing it build costs may be the way to go as it will not hurt the "emergent game play" of freighter ganking, but help the freighter pilots at the same time.
I am fine with a fleet of 8-10 Talos being able to gank my freighter, but either adjust the insurance rate so that it is actually 80% of the replacement costs, or make the ship cheaper to build/buy to balance the cost of ganking it with the cost of the gank fleet. |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 17:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
whole problem with freighters is, that you can't protect yourself from getting ganked. Only thing you can do is sit there and watch it die. Warping off = Impossible, Logoffski = Impossible and no modules for a counter either.
In my humble opinion, freighters should have the option to do just something to try to escape the gank. Even if it's just heating the hardners.. :)
Ofcourse, any buff to their survivability should come at a significant cost of cargo-space.. similar to an Orca which can't have 300k EHP while maintaining up to 180k m3. |
Dave Stark
2742
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 17:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Market inflation making cargo that was worth well under 1 billion isk a couple years ago, worth nearly 2 billion now.
this is one of the silliest arguments going.
yes your cargo is worth more now than it was a work ago, as are the ganker's ships. that means they need to gank bigger targets to retain profitability.
in short; inflation has **** all to do with ganking. |
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