| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 21 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Ticondrius
   |
Posted - 2005.09.23 19:10:00 -
[61]
mmmm.... *sniff sniff* Wheee! Superglue rox...
|
Merdekka Radaen
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 19:15:00 -
[62]
Fitting
Fitting is a pretty big issue for me. Even with advanced weapon upgrades lvl 5 you still can't get away without fitting a micro aux on the Manticore. Sure, you can fit the launchers without it, but that's about it. It's a tech II ship, it should at least be able to fit three tech I cruise launchers without almost doing itself a mischief in the process.
(advanced/weapon upgrades 5, covert ops 4)
3 x Cruise Launcher I
1 x Improved Cloaking Device II
=
34.08/37.5 MW, 195/306.25 TF.
For a tech II ship specifically designed to use three cruise launchers, I have only 3MW for my remaining seven slots with advanced weapon upgrades 5? I don't want a load of extra grid, but it would be nice if the ship didn't require a micro aux by default. That's just silly. As you can see, the cpu situation isn't great either. Since the ship is so hopelessly weak, a little electronic warfare is your only real option for defence, but get ready to shop around for named t1 mods.
The other bombers don't get as badly burned on fitting, but then who wants to fly a bomber with 2/3 the firepower of the manticore? There, I said it!
Health
Really, what is up with the health on these ships? They're barely stronger than their tech 1 counterparts and that resistance bonus... Who's idea was that?  It really is so minor that it might as well not be there. I realise that their main defence is supposed to be their inherent stealth, but it seems kind of cruel to make them so weak. I'm not suggesting they get "assault" resistances, but it would be nice if they got say 50% extra health in all areas and the resistance bonuses that blockade runners get (50% to racial primary + 25% to racial secondary.) They'd still be very weak because of their low speed and agility, but at least they wouldn't explode spontaneously when something looks at them funny.
For example (Manticore):
360 structure/307.5 armour/337.5 shield
shield resistances: 60/55/60/0
(Resistances same as "Crane" Caldari blockade runner in other words.)
|
aeti
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 19:47:00 -
[63]
give them some sort of explosion velocity bonus as well and then they would be good 
|
Kyoko Sakoda
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:10:00 -
[64]
Actually, in response to what Merdekka Radaen said, my powergrid turned out fine. I have to use two PDU IIs, but I'm sure that with the damage bonus that CCP would rather not have BCUs fit on this ship (though that'd be nice, ne?  ) The real problem I had with the ship was CPU. To fit the midslots I wanted to I was ~12 CPU short unless I fitted Arbalests :(
|
Dryxonedes Sae
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:21:00 -
[65]
Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this. If the other bombers get a 3rd missile bay, i'd be expecting the eagle and cerb to recieve and extra turret/missile (respectively) slot aswell to "even" the playing field. That said, the rest do need an applicable bonus to boost them toward a manticore, put them above somewhere else, but leave the steroid kessie at the top for outright damage.
|
RedClaws
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:28:00 -
[66]
 Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this.
Oh please...You want caldari to be 50% more effective
|
Locke Ateid
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:34:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Locke Ateid on 23/09/2005 20:34:41
Originally by: RedClaws
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles.
You know, Minmatar use lots of missiles too.
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: RedClaws
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this.
Oh please...You want caldari to be 50% more effective
33% more effective
------
|
Forsch
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
33% more effective
2 launchers = 100%
3 launcher = 150%
That's 50% more.
The Auctoritan Syndicate
Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Famine Aligher'ri
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:48:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I don't know if it sounds better to say:
We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch.
You want to remove the "Sensor Recalibration Timer" all together? I assume this is only because there is a "40% Scan Resolution Bonus" on there. So you actually have "Covert-Ops 5 second ect" recab time but with "Scan Reso" instead? If so, I don't think this should be changed to it. Only for the fact people can activate "Sensor Boosters" to get around it. So I don't agree with this for the fact I pvp in my "Covert-Ops". I still have a recab time but no "Scan Reso Bonus". I can't activate a module to lower my "Recab Time" heh.
I'm all for giving "Stealth Bombers" some loving. But I think maybe giving them the same recab time as my "Covert-Ops Cloaking Device" would be better. But still have the "Scan Resolution Bonus" on it. So they can start targeting after 5 seconds or less. I'm happy with that. As long as they can't warp and cloak all cool like...
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
|
Elve Sorrow
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:49:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 23/09/2005 20:49:01
Non-Caldari have 2 -> 100%
Caldari have 3 -> 150%
Sounds like 50% more to me, but hey. Its a matter of math eh?
But lets face it. The Manticore does 50% more damage then any of the others. That makes all the other ones suck. And i fly them all, before you wonder.
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:52:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Jim Raynor
33% more effective
2 launchers = 100%
3 launcher = 150%
That's 50% more.
but only 33% more damage output
the third cruise launcher is hard to fit as well it seems
------
|
Elve Sorrow
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:57:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 23/09/2005 20:59:14
Yea.
Just about as hard as it is fitting any of the others with 2 launchers/2 guns.
Manticore owns them all because its the only one that can one-volley frigates. And at the rate these things die against a frigate that lives past the first volley, that makes all the other ones suck.
EDIT:
Granted, i do have Cov Ops 5, which kinda helps i suppose.
|
Merdekka Radaen
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 20:59:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Actually, in response to what Merdekka Radaen said, my powergrid turned out fine. I have to use two PDU IIs, but I'm sure that with the damage bonus that CCP would rather not have BCUs fit on this ship (though that'd be nice, ne? ) The real problem I had with the ship was CPU. To fit the midslots I wanted to I was ~12 CPU short unless I fitted Arbalests :(
What the hell is wrong with wanting to fit ballistic controls on a missile ship! 
As for the 2/3 launchers debate, that's a tricky subject. The Caldari are the missile race and should probably get a little something extra in that department, but there's a big gulf between having 2 and 3 launchers that makes the Manticore significantly more appealing. Also, just think what would happen if you went completely by the racial backgrounds. Amarr would have a stealth turret ship? Gallente would have a stealth drone ship?
I'm a little divided on that issue, I see the manticore as the king of bombers because of the extra launcher, but also don't want to lose what little racial diversity these ships have left. I mean look at them, it's just the same ship four times over in reality. That's a new low. Hell, if it was up to me I would have a stealth turret and stealth drone ship. I'm going to go cry now. 
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:01:00 -
[75]
Gah! You're all getting your reciprocals mixed up 
The Manticore does 150% of the damage of the other SBs. Hence 50% increase.
The other SBs do 66% of the damage of a Manticore. Hence 33% decrease.
----------------------------------------
Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Darth Revanant
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:02:00 -
[76]
The sensor delay and module activation are the single thing wrong with bombers. I took my purifier deep into enemy territory (as stealth bombers should be able to do). I had 14 hostiles in local but could never fire at any targets because by the time i would have been able to do anything, the other 13 would be on me.
Now that you're getting rid of that, I'll give a few other reccommendations (purifier only 'cause it's all I can fly):
1) Five high slots is pointless, get rid of one.
2) Turrets on these ships are pointless. Get rid of the turret slots and related bonus.
3) Caldari should remain the best missile chuckers. I think all the bombers need to either keep the 2 missile slots but get a damage boost, or get the third missile slot and give the manticore a damage boost. The other three need to do more, but should not be better than the manticore. I sure as hell wouldn't want an uber armor tanking caldari ship.
4) The stealth part: granted it shouldn't have the ability of a cov ops cloak, but it does need something to make it stealthy 'cause it's not right now. Who cares if it can fly faster cloaked when all it's doing is sitting in one place waiting for a target becase if it warps in on its target there's no stealth involved? I like the idea that it can't warp while cloaked, but can cloak while IN warp. Maybe it can only cloak while in warp to balance it? I also think it should be able to cloak right after firing. Perhaps give it a locking/module activation delay after cloaking (not decloaking, notice the difference), that way it could decloak, fire, and cloak again, but not decloak and fire again as soon as the launchers cycle.
|
Famine Aligher'ri
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:06:00 -
[77]
Umm how about no... You're making it like the covert-op cloak if you give them the ability to cloak in warp. The only diffrence it will be is "Scan Resolution Bonus" which can be countered with mods. The ship can cloak and is "Stealthy". Moving around (Warping) is it's drawback to not being "Stealth".
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:10:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Gah! You're all getting your reciprocals mixed up
The Manticore does 150% of the damage of the other SBs. Hence 50% increase.
The other SBs do 66% of the damage of a Manticore. Hence 33% decrease.
so we're both right?
i mean im thinking if 3 launchers is 100% of your damage, and the other have 2, they do 33% less, though the manticore does FIT 50% "more"
------
|
Kollgorholl
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:16:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Masu'di
Originally by: Wild Rho
The turret points on stealth bombers really are wasted. There aren't enough to protect the frigate against any other frigs that get close or to be worthwhile against a larger target making them more or less redundant.
Give the ships the same number of missile slots or give each ship somthing unique that makes up for the lack of an extra launcher point (e.g: better speed, resitances, targetting range, damage bonuses and so on).
yeh i agree, and the extra mid slot of the manticore is also another advantage. sensor dampners and passive targeters etc.
the only thing i could think that something like a hound would be able to do better than a manticore is fit a plate, and use remote repairers or transporters in the high slots for some outlandish gang setups, which probably wouldn't be of use practically anyway.
I also totally agree. What's the point of the turrets? especially considering the powergrid of your average stealth bomber, which severely limits the fitting of any decent turrets without using mapc's in your low's rather than overdrives or nano's; which are the only kind of of propulsion upgrades which benefit a steath anyway. i've been flying Sealth bombers for a while cause i love the Tristan but now it seems that they will finally be a good deal more useful. I wish i'd spotted this thread sooner, I would have trained covert ops to level 5 instead of Assault ships. Also: please please please look at the powergrid of the stealth bombers, at least give the nemesis the extra 3 power that the tristan's gonna get with the overhaul. every little helps, and with the ridiculous power that cruise launchers need it would really really really help. atm i have adv weapons upgrades to lvl 4 but still need 20.1 power to fit each launcher and that's two launchers out the max 43 pg i can squeeze out of my nemesis, leaving less than 3pg for my 4 mids and 2 lows. you do the math. please get it sorted ccp. anyway, i know the stealth bomber need some attention and thanks for this overhaul.
|
Wraeththu
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 21:27:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles.
Ok, if that's the case, then the hound should be able to fit 3 1200mm howies, and 3 megabeams on the amarr one, and 3 350mm railguns on the nemesis.
I mean, that's their specialty right?
Missile hardpoints should be the same across the board. The manticore should have an extra mid-slot and extra cpu, not half-again the sole reason for the ship's existence.
|
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:10:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 23/09/2005 22:10:39
Originally by: Jim Raynor
so we're both right?
i mean im thinking if 3 launchers is 100% of your damage, and the other have 2, they do 33% less, though the manticore does FIT 50% "more"
Yeah, you're both right in a way. Although it depends on exactly what you meant in your original post.
You have to be very careful to make it clear what your referring to when quoting percentages. In this example it's important to distinguish between percentages of the Manticores damage/fitting/whatever and percentages of the other SBs damage/etc.
For example,
"The Manticore does 33% (of a Manticores damage) more than a normal SB" is correct.
"The Manticore does 33% (of a normal SBs damage) more than a normal SB" is not correct.
The confusion arises when you just write "The Manticore does 33% more damage". You probably mean it as the first statement above, but everyone else interprets it as the second statement and hence disagrees. The same principle applies when you read someone else saying "The Manticore does 50% more damage". You disagree because you think they mean 50% of one number when they in fact mean 50% of another number.
Apologies if that's too confusing/patronising, I've drunk too much wine :P.
----------------------------------------
Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Locke Ateid
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:11:00 -
[82]
I'd be happy if the Manticore had three missile high points and the other races had only two if the Manticore wasn't such a EW meany aswell. Give it only two mid slots to make it as equally gimped as the rest of the stealth ships.
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:13:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 23/09/2005 22:13:50
just to respond to the manticore 3 launchers, others 2 thing:
the manticore has a ****ty locktime, its even slower then the other stealthbombers, and the warprange is 46AU - guess how annoying that is
(i got the warp skill at lvl4).
it has its disadvantages and advantages, i can imagine having 2 250mm arties can b really useful with taking out inties as example.
non caldari bombers also have the ability to fit several bcu, if the fitting reqs arent too high - dunno.
but to sum it up, imo - give all bombers3 launchers, and let the caldari bombers lock, agil and being able to warp as long as the other bombers ;)
|
Weirda
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:13:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Weirda on 23/09/2005 22:18:52
the turret slots will be much more useful after this change... perhaps even more useful then the cruise launchers themselves... (you ppl need to think - dammit) 
don't change the turrets... or turret bonuses - projectile are already bad enough w/only one bonus. 
would have to say though - the purifier really need more grid (more then the others) because there isn't a class of laser (outside gatling pulse) that can fit on there... though maybe that too is alright with the new ability to activate module right out of cloak... 
Weirda suggestion
it should get no scan resolution penalty with cloak either... while you at it. if you boost the resolution too much to compensate - everyone will just instalock w/no cloak...
about the manticore 3rd slot
-all bombers have racial damage type 5% level EXCEPT manticor... brings the gap a little closer 
- tuxford can deliver us some good news if that will be changed to 5% all types and 7.5% racial (for all ships but the manticore)... this is you chance TUX!!! 
i.e. weirda don't have problem with the launcher differential. if you do - train caldari frig 5... it only about a week if you already fly the others... weirda personally feel that AM more happy in hound then would be in manticore! 
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Parallax Error
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:22:00 -
[85]
Three Seige launchers is the way forward. Think bombing runs in Freespace 1 and 2!
|
Coug
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:36:00 -
[86]
This change is exactly what they need - now they will really be the submarines they should have been from the get go. Travel on the surface (uncloaked), then dive (cloak), stalk, then pop and shoot immedately after uncloaking. They are fragile, but surprise is a wonderful tool.
~C~ |
sableye
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 22:47:00 -
[87]
hmm sound snice I might start stocking up on cheap nemesis now but i do think that all stealth bombers should ahve 3 launcher slots its not really good that one is so clearly the best (manitcore).
|
Wraeththu
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 23:12:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Weirda
about the manticore 3rd slot
-all bombers have racial damage type 5% level EXCEPT manticor... brings the gap a little closer
huh?
Manticore: "5% bonus to Cruise Missile kinetic damage per level"
Seems like a damage bonus, and it's the caldari racial one.
Not only that, but instead of a wasted bonus to turret damage or recharge or whatever, You get an extra 5% reduction in grid per level for the launchers.
|
Joerd Toastius
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 23:25:00 -
[89]
Originally by: sokken
Edited by: sokken on 23/09/2005 18:11:04
"Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay....."
this might go a bit far, cloaked bs snipegankers ftl. But just for the stealthbomber its cake
I think the "..." is meant to be "on stealth bombers".
|
Joerd Toastius
|
Posted - 2005.09.23 23:27:00 -
[90]
Oh, and just to throw one other interesting thing into the mix
Burst ECM
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 21 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |