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Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
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Posted - 2013.04.23 10:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
With the recent mining ship rebalancing haulers should get a makeover too. When an unfit retri and a mack flown without any modules have more cargo space than - let's say a fitted mammoth - it is time to rebalance. So here I collect some of my ideas:
-Balancing with other ship-types
1. The easiest and non-invasive way to balance mining ships and haulers would be to just give haulers more cargo-space. I would say around 50k fully fitted... this would also correspond well with the in-game size of a hammoth compared to a mack or retri.
2. Give haulers an additional "goods-hold" much like the ore-hold for mining ships where everything except ore can be transported. One can argue that some goods need small, air-conditiopned compartments unsuitable for raw ore *blah*
3. Play around with an all new ore-hauler, so I did not train that skill for the noctis alone :P perhaps a mini freighter with 60k or something like that
-Balancing haulers amongst their kind
1. small t1 - smaller cargohold but make them faster as fast cargo runner with near insta-warp
2. med t1 - make it a specialty ship for hauling cargo with the extra cargo-hold -> so no ore hauling here
3. large t1 - make it a large slow ship that can haul everything up to 50k - much as it is now only bigger!
4. fast t2 - leave them but rebalance so all 4 get up to 10k cargospace and can cloaky haul a bc with a little extra through space (yeah it's mostly the prowler)
5 hard t2 - make them ++ber-tanks... if some ship has to bull through a gate camp and is meant to not die instantly please streanghten it further atm it is near useless (at least for me)
-Wild Shots
1. Spice up the cargo-space: Why not fit haulers as massive carebear-gankers: badgers of doom extended. Devise extra rigs for haulers that make them a little better as deathtraps for trigger-happy pirates :P This is a wild shot but I loved the vids with the hulk of doom... why not allow for some hauler teeth too?!
2. Add a special ore-hauler with subsystems yay! so it is more a large combat transport, perhaps with a cov-ops cloak, with fleet modules, triage, etc. DO IT!
These are my 5 cent on this topic - I would love comments and feedback!
Cheers,
your friendly supply runner,
gecko
P.S. There is a post out there that has a slightly different take on things so I will include the link:
An odd idea on the industrial ship revamp. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226948 |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
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Posted - 2013.04.23 10:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
I found some more interesting ideas in those posts (I included them in the list):
- Semi-stationary trade ship: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2691205#post2691205
- And some more discussion on haulers vs mining ships: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2817279#post2817279
- Rebalancing JF/freighters: T1 (and JF) Freighter balance: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=227632 |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
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Posted - 2013.04.23 12:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
P.S. There is a post out there that has a slightly different take on things so I will include the link:
An odd idea on the industrial ship revamp. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226948 |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2058
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Posted - 2013.04.23 14:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
The main reason they gave Mining Barges and Exhumers an Ore holds was to prevent them from competing with industrials for hauling. Now you're using their Ore hold as a reason to boost the cargo hold of indy ships? That seems wrong to me.
They should tiericide Indy ships... but probably not to your liking: There needs to be serious trade-offs in the main attributes for each version: Cargo capacity vs speed/agility vs tank... Each hauler should specialize in ONLY one of the three main attributes, and the should be gimped in the other two.
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Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
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Posted - 2013.04.23 15:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: They should tiericide Indy ships... but probably not to your liking: There needs to be serious trade-offs in the main attributes for each version: Cargo capacity vs speed/agility vs tank... Each hauler should specialize in ONLY one of the three main attributes, and the should be gimped in the other two.
I think that's necessary too. As I see it, it's the only way to revitalise the smaller/beginner versions of the t1 haulers. That said, there should def. be a rebalancing of the space - could also be a special goods hold much like for the miners, which can hold comparable amounts (35k m3 min).
And I also think a t3 indy would be fun. See this post:
Strategic Industrial - More customizable indys / a use for high indy ship skills https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=228195 |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
24
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Posted - 2013.04.23 16:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would like to see haulers that can do what the cargo-hold frigs (probe, imicus, magnate, heron) can do, but on a larger scale, and haul a small volume at high speed, I'm not sure about the 'goods hold' I would also like to see haulers that can haul more than a ret... when I'm using barges over industrials to haul ore, somethings wrong....
I'd also like to see maybe some speciality haulers... (maybe a specific race) so each race has a small fast and a large lumbering hauler that leaves minnie with 1 spare, and gallente with 3 spare.... a PI hauler... (better version of primae - more realistic, and then update the primae so that's actually better) a trade goods hauler.... (maybe) a mineral hauler... (probs not) a tanky hauler, that could also be used as a bait hauler..... a ship hauler, that's got very little cargo space, and a ship storage bay (can fit rigged ships, but can't access them without station/POS support) |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
744
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Posted - 2013.04.23 17:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:I would like to see haulers that can do what the cargo-hold frigs (probe, imicus, magnate, heron) can do, but on a larger scale, and haul a small volume at high speed, I'm not sure about the 'goods hold' I would also like to see haulers that can haul more than a ret... when I'm using barges over industrials to haul ore, somethings wrong....
I'd also like to see maybe some speciality haulers... (maybe a specific race) so each race has a small fast and a large lumbering hauler that leaves minnie with 1 spare, and gallente with 3 spare.... a PI hauler... (better version of primae - more realistic, and then update the primae so that's actually better) a trade goods hauler.... (maybe) a mineral hauler... (probs not) a tanky hauler, that could also be used as a bait hauler..... a ship hauler, that's got very little cargo space, and a ship storage bay (can fit rigged ships, but can't access them without station/POS support)
i dnt know how they are going to approach the asymmetry between races, but i hope its not going to be to give odd and unique traits that may well be amazing or useless to ships that only one race has access to.
surely a very very simple idea would be to have 3 haulers for each race. and to upgrade/sidegrade/downgrade itty 2's to 3's and itty 4's to 5's. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
440
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Posted - 2013.04.24 02:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
You don't want to increase the Itty V any more (maybe even cut it down a bit), but the Bestower and the Badger Mk II need a lot more space.
Consider this: 2.25x base cargo space and a stacking penalty on cargo expansion.
All ships calculated with full tech 2 cargo expanders and tech 1 cargo rigs, ship skill not factored in: * Bestower (current): 19,291 m3 * Bestower (new): 21,776 m3
* Badger Mk II (current): 16,549 m3 * Badger Mk II (new): 22,967 m3
* Iteron Mk V (current): 30,746 m3 * Iteron Mk V (new): 30,617 m3
* Mammoth (current): 22,607 m3 * Mammoth (new): 25,519 m3
As you can see, the Iteron changes very little (don't wanna make anyone mad). 4-slot industrials go up a bit and 3-slot industrials (like the Badger) go up a lot. This makes base cargohold play a much bigger role in net cargohold after expansion, rather than which ship has the most low slots. It also allows armor tank industrials to spare some room for tank without gimping their cargohold. Mittani, where have you gone to? I miss you :( |
Pan Dora
Stardust Enterprises
23
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Posted - 2013.04.24 03:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
If CCP really want to balance haulers they need to get rid of cargo expansion modules. _____________________________________________________ -CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting. |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
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Posted - 2013.04.24 09:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim -> I think your idea would be a great start and they fit in great with the other points.
In general it seems there are a lot of wishes for haulers and transports. Found another thread to give some love to cloakys:
Blockade Runner High Slots: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216859
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Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
0
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Posted - 2013.04.25 10:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Haulers and blockade runners currently exist and fill their intended roles. You have cloakies that can navigate Null sec with impunity (relatively), and blockade runners that can haul more and run low sec relatively easily.
Both ships are able to easily transport necessary quantities of ammunition, ship modules, and relatively small loads of frigate and cruiser sized ships without too much of a problem.
From a factional military stand point, they fill a military logistics role very well. As for large bulk movements between 0.0 and low sec / high sec, you have the coveted, ever expensive jump freighter, and for large scale alliances / corporations, does an excellent job at moving mass quantities of anything back and forth out of Jita.
BUT.....
With the advent of ORE literally being re-worked and monopolizing the mineral and raw goods production (They even have the only bonused gas mining ship), it should fall to ore industrials and ore industrials alone to save the day and handle their massive metric volumes.
Rather than re-working or re-twinking the existing logistics pattern, why not expand ore to address this role, give them a sweet spot niche, and go from there.
Take the Primae hull and expand on it.
Make two hauler varients,
Both would have pathetically small natural cargo bays
Give One with a Raw Materials bay + refined materials bay (say 60km3 for raw ore / gas / minerals, 20-30km3 for refined minerals / gas / ice products). Cargo sizes would ofc be after putting the Ore industrial skill to V.
The second one would be a supped upped Primae, with a command center hold and large (40km3) Commodities hold.
As for filling the blockade runner niche for ORE. Ore doesn't fly through combat zones... Let them fill another niche and allow for a less expensive method for getting raw materials to and from high sec, abit at a reduced cost and much smaller scale than traditional jump freighters:
T2 Jump Industrials. Take the above ship types (only able to hold decent amounts of base materials, not modules), and slap a jump drive on it. Ta-Da! It's the ultimate blockade runner, limited in scope, very specialized, and somewhat affordable for smaller conglomorants. Leave it relatively weak and vulnerable, only one utility high slot, still has to use a dedicated cyno ship. No cloak, no built in WCS.
I did a more detailed explination in my own thread before finally stumbling onto yours: Dustin Off The Primae - Industrials with a Role
Would love to get your feedback.
As it stands, current industrials do fill a mass trader, military logistics boats and stargate to stargate movement role in 0.0 and low sec.
Some of the balancing needs issue too. Does Galente really need 5 industrials when everyone typically uses either ItyIV or V? Nah.
But as for the massive new ore holds on the Miners, lets make a specialty ship for that and hand it over to ORE. I like the bestower / ITY V with it's massive cargo holds. You start adding ORE bays to it and CCP will naturally start stripping that massive hold size away from us, making other trade / military logistics more difficult.
Just my two cents. ^.^ -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2013.04.25 11:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
cloaky covert ...cyno's..... hardly the talk about haulers you would expect they should leave cyno's to proper covert pvp ships not haulers..
Really i think covert cyno's should be the only cyno's in the game make it about sneaking a small group of cloaky ships into enemy territory rather than an excuse to bring in massive blobs of dull and boring warfare.. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
0
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Posted - 2013.04.25 11:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:cloaky covert ...cyno's..... hardly the talk about haulers you would expect they should leave cyno's to proper covert pvp ships not haulers..
Really i think covert cyno's should be the only cyno's in the game make it about sneaking a small group of cloaky ships into enemy territory rather than an excuse to bring in massive blobs of dull and boring warfare..
A good cloaky hauler pre-positioned at a halfway point can do wonders on the flexibility and range of a BLOPS fleet. Not to mention a group of bombers supported by a 'combat' industrial with loads of extra bombs and torps can help make short work of blockade units, un defended jump bridges, and in some cases, stations.
Combat logistics is just that. Part of combat. An army moves on it's stomach, and lots of ships eat fuel and ammo like starving rabbid wolverines.
Just because it doesn't have a torp launcher doesn't mean it's not vital to sending thousands of torpedoes down range.
The ability to have it light a covert cyno further solidifies it's ability to be just that - a Cove Ops support ship. Your gonna leave the boat off grid for re-supply anyway, why not allow it also be the becon for more BLOPS style reinforcements?
Covert Cyno's are essentially a cheaper, more available version of a titan bridge that has severe ship limitations. If your willing to hot drop that many relatively fragile ships, go for it!
Even rookie ships can fit a normal cyno, so why not any covert cloaky light a covert cyno? -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
2
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Posted - 2013.04.25 20:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
I also think that blockade runners and haulers are an important part of even a successful raid and more so in larger OPs. So they should also get some revamp-love!
@Patrice Macmahon: Great take on the ORE-haulers - I included it with a link in the initial post, if that's ok! |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
1
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Posted - 2013.04.25 20:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah, no problems!
I like that your collecting the industrial threads. Hopefully you can get a dev to put this on the common proposals to help centralize this discussion.
^.^ -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
3
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Posted - 2013.05.08 08:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yeah would be great if all those indy/hauler/runner ideas could be centralised... dev plz?
that said, there seem to be some more posts with similar intention. FOund another one dealing with indy rebalancing and collecting ideas in a similar fashion:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2969521
see here:
Serenity Galad wrote:This post started as me offering some ideas about Industrial ships re-balancing, while asking the Dev for an update on their efforts. A few intrested players responded with ideas, discussions, and links to old threads that tackled this subject. So in an effort to consolidate the discussion i m gonna list the summary of links and ideas graciously provided by Gizznitt Malikite below. I will also try to update this post with a summary of most interesting ideas, and plz do not hesitate to point them out Interesting old threads: An odd idea on the industrial ship rebalance[Odyssey] BR, DST & Industrial changesPlans and Ideas for T1 Industrial Rebalance?Industrial Revamp any time soon?New industrial ship rolesIndustrial TiericideTiericide and the most important issue with industrialA concept of the future of the T1 industrial transport ships.A quick request on the upcoming Industrial tiericide-Industrial Hauler Revamp Ideas[Proposal] - Industrial RevampTiericide - Industrials Edition?Tiercide IndustrialsThe idea of evening out the capacity is common. Tank is occasionally discussed. There is also often a talk about why we have so many threads. The threads never go beyond 2 pages. Two roles commonly discussed are large cargohold/slow, and smaller carghold/fast. There is also the idea for some hulls carrying specialized cargo (ore, minerals, PI, items for your favorite activity). I think I saw Shahfluffers occasionally suggest that CCP would do the three lines he is confirming here: tanky, speed, large cargohold. The extra models for some races and the dropped models for Gallente are also topics for discussion.
- ShahFluffers also reported that:
"I asked CCP Yerbittium (sp?) about the industrial line at ship balancing rountable last week. They're going to be getting the same treatment that the mining barge line got. One will be tanky, one will be speedy, one that has large cargo capacity." But it seems no ETA or further information are currently available. ------------------------------------ |
Gecko Hareka
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
3
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Posted - 2013.05.08 09:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
I reported the thread for inclusion into the idea-list. When that's done, we can send it on it's way ;)
Cheers,
gecko |
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