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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13733
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Posted - 2013.04.23 16:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:That's why I propose recompensation. GÇ£RecompensationGÇ¥ suggest that something was lost. So the question is: for what? What have you lost?
No, having to train skills under new skill tree is not a loss GÇö it's just the game. In fact, under this new tree, you'll have a far easier time training for things than the older characters had. That is your compensation right there: your cross-training becomes a little more time-consuming; specialisation becomes immensely faster.
At best, the older characters should be compensated for having their clones become more expensive without actually gaining anything for itGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13733
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 16:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Exactly. That's what I'm pointing at. This change itself hits those who have Dessy V and BC V quite a bit but even harder those who don't. No, it's pretty much the exact opposite of what you're pointing at.
This change hits those who have Destroyer and BC V very hard GÇö it doesn't hit anyone else at all. The difference before and after the patch is that everyone will be able to do exactly the same things they could the day before, except that those who suddenly get burdened with 5M SP more and risk running up higher clone costs aren't getting anything for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13738
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Posted - 2013.04.23 16:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Do u understand that if we (noobs) leave this game there will be noone to sell your crap to and noone shoot in low sec at? Of course there will GÇö namely everyone else.
Now, you do understand that GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ is not an applicable concept in EVE, right? That the only thing that new players can't GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with is total SP? That total SP is a meaningless stat that only serves one purpose: making your clone more expensive? That beyond total SP, GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ is not only very possible, but actually inevitable, and also a hugely inefficient way of spending your time? That the design of marginal improvement for exponential increases in cost, and of diminishing returns means that 1 SP Gëá 1 SP?
You're asking to be compensated for the non-loss of not being subject to an actual compensation (one that only results in them being exactly where they were before). You are getting the exact same deal.
Quote:Noobs/newer players deserve some love too. They're getting a lot of it: they get a much improved ship progression tree, where almost everything is much easier and quicker to train for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13740
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Posted - 2013.04.23 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:You are right. But I'm punished in that way:
Let's see you have all cruisers at III and BC IV. Nothing changes for u. GǪother than getting more total SP, which makes the clone more expensive.
Quote:But I have 1 racial cruiser III and BC IV. GǪso nothing changes for you either.
Quote:So basically my BC 1 SP is gonna lose 75% of its weight. Is it fair? GǪexcept that you're not losing anything.
So yes, it's very fair: you can fly exactly the same stuff you could before; the other guy could fly exactly the same stuff he could beforeGǪ except he has to pay more for it.
You're not being punished in any sense of the word. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13743
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Posted - 2013.04.23 17:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Just as I expected I don't get any support. Can you identify the reason why?
Quote:Mostly fail posts from fail veterans who is trying to celebrate their victory over one person. No, not a single one, actually. Care to try again?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13745
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Posted - 2013.04.23 17:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Can only feel sorry for u Thank you. This change totally busts my plan to stay within the 120M SP clone. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13746
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Posted - 2013.04.23 18:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:I exactly got what they are to tell me:" Omg. **** u didn't train all skills on time? Haha fail! We planned all ahead and u didn't. NOOB!"
That's what most posts address. GǪthen you need to read again. This time, drop the attitude and they'll be right in posting those kinds of answers.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13750
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Posted - 2013.04.23 18:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bah! Too slow. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13754
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Posted - 2013.04.23 19:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:Ok, smart ass.
Lets see if i get this right -
A customer would like their purchase to be transfered to a new service as the old one has become obsolete. You didn't get it right.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13756
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Posted - 2013.04.23 19:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:I'm not supposed to do anything. You are supposed to accumulate your SP like everyone else. Instead, you're asking for handouts.
Quote:But I see that I'm put into disadvantageous position over older players by CCP change (concerning combat ships) Only in the sense of GÇ£you're seeing thingsGÇ¥ = GÇ£you're hallucinatingGÇ¥. You'll be able to fly the exact same combat ships after the patch as you could before it. They'll be able to fly the exact same combat ships after the patch as they could before it.
Change in position: none.
Quote:All posts like 'deal with it' are not valid here. Oh? Why not?
Quote:I want official CCP response. The official CCP response is GÇ£deal with itGÇ¥, and has been sinceGǪ ohGǪ February 2012 or so. Since you're not losing anything, you're not getting anything. After all, why should you? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13758
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Posted - 2013.04.23 20:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:The only reason I expected criticism is that I already know that EVE society is corrupted. Oh? In what way?
Quote:But it does not make my post invalid in any way. True. What makes your post invalid is you complete lack of reasoning for why you should get a bunch of SP for no particular reason.
Quote:The only reason players stand against me is their detrimental way of thinking (if i suffered, every1 should suffer). Eh, no. There are plenty of reason to stand against your idea that you should be GÇ£compensatedGÇ¥ for nothing. One of them is that you're asking to be compensated for nothing. Another is that you're already getting a much more optimise skill tree, so you have nothing to complain about. Yet another is that you have fundamentally misunderstood what the change and skill reimbursement is all about or how it works.
None of it is about how you have to GÇ£sufferGÇ¥ GÇö largely because you are the only one that think it's in any way related to suffering and punishment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13759
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 20:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:I see how bad EVE society because I played many games and read many forums. GǪand what's said on the forums is always true.
So could you actually present some kind of argument or evidence for once? How is EVE society GÇ£badGÇ¥? More to the point: why does it matter? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13759
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Posted - 2013.04.23 20:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:If the skill tree was so bad, then y did u play it then at that time? Non sequitur.
You know what's great? Bacon! You know what's even better? Bacon and eggs.
Does bacon and eggs mean I should throw out the bacon? Hell no, because it's great.
Oh, and you'll note that I didn't say that the skill tree was badGǪ that's just you projecting your GÇ£suffering/punishmentGÇ¥ feelings. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13763
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 20:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:The only disadvantage is to someone who has pvp in command ships of all four races as their goal, all on the same character for some reason. Actually, while I haven't checked since they rejiggered the CS prereqs to include more leadership skills, last I checked, going for all 8 command ships was actually several million SPs under the new scheme than under the old one, since you no longer had to go for the entire Logi+HAC cruiser branch.
Sure, with the leadership skills added in, it won't be quite as much, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still hellalot cheaper and faster than before. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13766
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 20:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Man, I really wish you could downvote posts. That one just rustled my jimmies. There's always the bounty systemGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13769
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Well just wait. The week before the expansion we will be flooded with these posts. The week after, posts seeking free remaps.
Remaps..and clone cost whines. I'm thinking about making one of those myself.
Or, wellGǪ perhaps not so much about the cost as about the SP limits. The 120M limit was so perfect for my plans, and now I'll end up at 123 when all is said and done. I suppose I could just as well keep going to the next limit thenGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13769
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Granting a reasonable chunk of SP to new-er players who are here to see the change but too young to take advantage of it (assuming they want to) is, by far, the equitable thing to do. How is giving away free abilities to people more equitable than letting everyone have exactly the same abilities as before?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13772
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:CCP already is "giving away free abilities" on June 4. What part of that don't you understand. Let's seeGǪ
Before the patch, I can fly Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar BCs and Destroyers at V, all 8 CS, and all 4 Dictors. After the patch, I can fly Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar BCs and Destroyers at V, all 8 CS, and all 4 Dictors.
So I guess the part I don't understand is this: what abilities have they given me for free?
Quote:They are giving away Amarr Battlecruiser V, Caldari Battlecruiser IV, Gallente Destroyer IV, etc. No, they're not. They're retaining abilities that people already had. No-one is getting anything new (other than the occasional increased clone cost). That's why they chose this route: because SP don't matter in the end. What matters is what you can fly, what you can fit, and what you can do GÇö your abilities. The entire change is built around leaving people's abilities completely untouched (they're even changing the skill training mechanics to ensure this).
Quote:Post change, people will be able to fly the same SHIPS GǪwhich means they have the same abilities as before. So how is giving away free abilities to people more equitable than letting everyone have exactly the same abilities as before?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13774
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Really. You invested "months" in training for Amarr Battlecruiser, Caldari Battlecruiser, Gallente Battlecruiser, and Minmatar Battlecruiser? Yes, he (and many others) invested time in the ability to fly all four races' battlecruisers. Why should others be given tons of new abilities just because he retains his? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13777
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:What? Me: GÇ£you're already getting a much more optimise skill tree, so you have nothing to complain aboutGÇ¥ Him: GÇ£If the skill tree was so bad, then y did u play it then at that time? U should have left then.GÇ¥ Me: GÇ£Non sequitur.GÇ¥
Quote:To manipulate what he/she said to fit the non sequitur categorization, you're twisting his/her words to accuse you of being able to tell the future but acting as if you couldn't? Eh, no. I'm converting his GÇ£you should have leftGÇ¥ into an analogy about bacon and eggs to demonstrate that, no, just because there is improvement doesn't mean that it was bad before; that you can improve from GÇ£goodGÇ¥ to GÇ£betterGÇ¥.
Quote:With the added assumption which he is clearly making that the current one is horrible, that actually does follow. GǪexcept that it's about what I thought, and no mention was made about it being bad GÇö it was just something he dreamt up as a non sequitur of my saing that it's getting improved.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Jack Miton wrote:These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now. The funny thing is, even if you started a character right now you could max them all out in time for the expansion with the right remap. But the OP would rather whinge on here instead. well sure, but that's some pretty epic power leveling sitting-around :P Fixed.
We're talking about (2+6) ranks +ù 256k SP = 2M SP, which can be brushed off in 33 days at 2520 SP/h.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:...except that he didn't use the word "thought", but he did use the word "bad", in the 4 sentence excerpt under discussion. GǪand it's still my view of the skill tree that was in question GÇö i.e. what I thought about it.
Not that it matters, the non-sequitur is the same: GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ does not mean that it was bad before. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:This is simple logic. A non sequitur is an argument that does not follow from the premises. From the premises: ' It was bad after' GǪwhich wasn't a premise to begin with. That it was bad before was a conclusion he reached based on the premise GÇ£it's improvedGÇ¥ GÇö a conclusion that does not follow. He then used this conclusion as the premise for another conclusion: that I should have quitGǪ but the first conclusion is still a non sequitur, so that conclusion second falls.
Quote:simply saying "it was about me, not him" isn't a valid argument Sure it is. It explains why you're getting your premises mixed up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13783
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:CCP can't patch dumb, lazy or stupid. That's what NCOs are for. I don't think that really qualifies as GÇ£patchingGÇ¥. To me, GÇ£patchingGÇ¥ suggests the bug is being removed. NCOs are more like adding exception handling routines to make the bug not cause a complete crashGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13784
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 00:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Let's examine the OP's statements on that issue: No, let's examine the actual line of argumentation instead, since that's all that matters. Again:
Me: GÇ£you're already getting a much more optimise skill tree, so you have nothing to complain aboutGÇ¥ Him: GÇ£If the skill tree was so bad, then y did u play it then at that time? U should have left then.GÇ¥ Me: GÇ£Non sequitur.GÇ¥
He is asking me GÇ£why did I playGÇ¥ at the time GÇ£if the skill tree was so badGÇ¥. It's a question that hinges on a conditional that hinges on my saying that it has been improved. The conditional is about a subjective matter and it relates to my situation. It's my view and my choice that matters GÇö not his GÇö and he makes it so by asking why I acted the way I did. His view is irrelevant because what he thought does not matter one whit for my choice to play back then. So let's rewrite those:
Me: GÇ£You're getting a much more optimise skill tree, so you are getting something out of this change to GÇ£compensateGÇ¥ for the fact that older players retain their pre-existing abilities.GÇ¥ Him: GÇ£Why did you play it at the time if you thought the skill tree was so bad?GÇ¥ Me: GÇ£Your question is nonsensical because I never said I thought the skill tree was bad GÇö just that it will be improved. I played at the time because it was good. Now it will be even better, but I'm past the point where this will matter to me.GÇ¥
Quote:Apparently you disagree, and think that the OP believes that the current EVE skill tree situation is good. No. I think that I believe the current skill tree situation is good, and I'm pointing out that the he is making a nonsensical question that relies on a conclusion that does not follow from my saying that the skill tree is being improved.
So no. The premise was never that it was bad after GÇö only that it is getting improved. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13785
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 00:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:You don't seem to be aware of this, but supplying quotes from the OP is much more 'actual' than any paraphrase you supply. GǪwhich is why I'm supplying quotes from the poster in question. You don't seem to be aware of this.
Quote:It doesn't matter what you think you believe, that isn't part of the formal definition of a non sequitur. GǪand the formal definition of a non sequitur means that he can't interject unrelated information and that his conclusion that it was bad before does not follow from the single premise that it has been improved.
He is asking about my actions, as directed by the one premise I provide. His conclusion that I should have acted differently is a non sequitur since it relies on a premise I did not provide, in a situation where I must provide it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13787
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 01:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:No, your provision of premises is 100% irrelevant. Eh, no. Again, he's asking about my action GÇö my premises matter a whole lot, since those are the ones he's mistreating.
Quote:A syllogism is a collection of premises leading to a conclusion. A faulty syllogism is one where the conclusion is not proven. A logical fallacy is where someone states that a group of premises leads to a conclusion but the two are somehow disconnected. Fixed. In this case: skill tree will be improved (my premise) GåÆ I thought the skill tree was bad (his conclusion).
This is fallacious in a number of ways. There is no connection between the relative change of GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ that leads to an absolute state of GÇ£goodGÇ¥ (or GÇ£badGÇ¥); there is no connection between my premise (the skill tree will be improved) and his opinion on the past or current state of the same; and there is no connection between his opinion and mine. In short, it's a fallacy because the syllogism that one would expect when turning a bunch of premises into a conclusion doesn't exist.
Quote:If the OP is committing a logical fallacy, then all the premises need to be put forth by the OP GǪor he can take my premise, add one of his own, and then try to assign his conclusion to my thinking. In this case: me saying that the skill tree will be improved + him saying it is/was bad GåÆ me saying it was bad.
Quote:We seem to be stuck at this point, your last two posts are basically identical; so unless you can say something new and correct, I'm going to have to conclude that you aren't able to grasp the correct definitions and stop explaining your errors to you. Since they've both been correct, and you haven't been able to argue the case at hand, I'm going to keep explaining to you that no, his conclusion does not follow from my premise and is, in fact, a non sequitur (you know GÇö the logical error where the conclusion does not follow the premise(s) given?).
GǪin fact, at this point, I'd rather like to know the source of your (truncated and incomplete) Gǣformal definitionGǥ, since there's more to non sequiturs than what you're describing.
Uh-huhGǪGÇ£Apparently you disagree, and think that the OP believes that the current EVE skill tree situation is good.GÇ¥ So yeah, you brought up what I think people believeGǪ but apparently, it doesn't matter all of a sudden. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13788
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 02:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:There's nothing to 'refund' - except in a very tiny minority of cases. The only thing that's being done is to allow the players to fly later what they can fly now. No new capabilities, no suddent leaps in competitiveness. Just some different labels and numbers, signifying... Nothing new.
status quo ante I have a sneaking suspicion that this, like pretty much all SP whines, is just a classic case of D&D:itis (I'd call it WoW:itis, but it really isn't their fault GÇö they just copied the already obsolete formula because it's simple). The reasoning is that SP = XP, more = higher level, higher level = better, skills = class/level feats, so more of those obviously = better.
GǪforgetting (or, worse, having never learned) the simple fact that none of that is actually true, because the game isn't a class/level-based system and skills don't work that way. Skills are simply a mix between proficiency and usage licensing, and at the end of the day, mechanics-wise at least, the only thing that matters is what you can use and at what proficiency level.
When viewed through a class/level lens, of course it all looks horribly upsetting GÇö more GÇ£XPGÇ¥, more GÇ£featsGÇ¥, of course it must be a great boon to get those. When viewed through the EVE lens, we get what you just described: no added proficiency, no added usage license, so who cares what you get because it will be applied equally to everyone.
The argument that GÇ£onoz, it takes longer to trainGÇ¥ forgets not just the fact that a huge amount of changes are being made in the opposite direction, and that the total SP catalogue of the game is increased by just over 1% by the change, but also the fact that skill changes like this are bound to happen with some frequency. Whenever new skills are included, it'll be the same: new players get more to train to GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with older ones, and older players can get going with little to no time investment. It's just something that will (and even must) happen as the game grows older and new stuff gets added to give oldtimers something new and interesting to train. Between MJDs, target breakers, reactive hardeners, honeycombing, new players have GÇ£fallen behindGÇ£ in terms of how much new SP they have to accumulate just as much as the BC/dessie changes will.
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Your conclusion quoted above does not follow from my premises, therefore by your own logic, your conclusion is a non sequitur. And guess what? It is, in the derailment sense.
Now, since you prefer your things formal (for no particularly good reason) how about this one: PGéü: If things are bad, they can be improved. PGéé: The skill tree is getting improved, according to Tippia. C: The skill tree was bad, according to Tippia GåÉ non sequitur.
GǪand I'm being generous here by providing an assumed premise that could possibly connect the otherwise disconnected statements and which is intuitive enough that we can suspect that the OP actually might use it. In reality, PGéü is unstated, so we don't even have a complete syllogism. Either way, the conclusion does not follow form the premise(s). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13790
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 03:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:The 'failure to plan ahead' counter-argument to OP isn't very good. It can easily be defeated by a player who comes to the game after the change, therefore COULDN'T HAVE failed to plan ahead. WeeeellGǪ it works against the OP because he could have (and still can) plan ahead. The new player is a slightly different argument and is much the same situation as any newcomer after a patch when new skills were introduced: they'll have to train for longer to be able to do the same as the older players. As the game grows older, new players will have more and more skills to choose from; they get to start playing the game as-is, same as everyone else when they started.
The only special feature of this particular skill change is that the split between GÇ£oldGÇ¥ and GÇ£newGÇ¥ doesn't happen on patch day, but up to a month before, which is when it starts to become too late to get that extra-payout BC V/Dessie V combo. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, none of that follows from my premises. Good thing that I wasn't talking about them, then. No need to be sorry. Just try harder to grasp the context next time.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, I'm not willing to try harder to grasp your non sequiturs. Good thing that it wasn't a non sequitur you needed to grasp, then, but a context.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow from my premises either. Good thing that I wasn't talking about them, then. No need to be sorry. Just try harder to grasp the context next time.
Also, from your inability to actually present any kind of argument, I'm hereby concluding that you've realised not just that I was right all along, but also why, and you're feeling a bit silly about having missed something that obvious in spite of all your talk about logic.
It's ok. At least now you know a bit more about non sequiturs and the different guises they may take. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Nice combination, the "claim the argument you just responded to 20 times isn't actually a real argument at all" plus the "hereby conclude that I win" plus the "impute negative emotions to the other party". Impressive. GǪand, until evidence comes along to falsify or cast any kind of doubt on it, remains the only sane conclusion.
Oh, and you've only posted 3 times since the statement was made GÇö none of them actually addressing the statement GÇö so claiming that the GÇ£the argument you responded to 20 timeGÇ¥ isn't an argument (by virtue of not existing at all) is quite easy.
Quote:However, it still doesn't follow from my premises. GǪwhich it doesn't have to, since they aren't germane to the topic at hand.
Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, but emulating you and listening to you argue against your own arguments is much superior. Maybe you should try doing that then. It got you nowhere the first time since you failed to pick up on the actual answer and instead went off on an irrelevant tangent, but maybe second time's the charm.
Meanwhile, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C? Or even better, how PGéé leads to C without PGéü GÇö that would be interestingGǪ
GǪor you can keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13798
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 12:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:1. I myself (actually training it) might get it on time (or even if not be short like 4-5 days). I hope it is clear. But people who just started or will start playing a bit later wont. GǪand that is just the nature of evolving games where new skills are added: people who have played longer have more, and people who start later have more skills to wade through.
Quote:Do you understand now how absurd your 'I can fly the same ships as before' claim sound? No. Largely because your scenario doesn't reflect what's going on in the game: that everyone gets the same deal. All that's happening is a bit of time shifting, and the only GÇ£strangeGÇ¥ thing about it is that unlike with most additions, this shift does not happen on patch day but roughly one month before. So how is it in any way absurd that the status quo is retained? That no-one gains or loses any abilities? Or, more relevantly, how is this status quo more absurd than saying that just because some people retained their abilities, all the others should be given tons more?
Quote:Hopefully that clarifies something. Yes, it clarifies that you are unduly focused on an irrelevant stat: SP. The only thing that matters is ability, and abilities remains completely untouched.
Quote:But I hope that at least some of you will listen to voice of reason Sure. Could you give a reason why some people should be given new abilities just because others retain theirs? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13802
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 13:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:A better example (still horribly flawed) is that
1. US changes driving laws in 2014 that you need a "standard transmission" license if you want to drive a car with standard (manual) transmission. 2. anyone with a current licence is granted "std transmission" license, provided that they own/lease a car with a standard transmission. 3. anyone who isn't licensed by 01/01/14 (or doesn't have a std transmission car) defaults to the "automatic transmission only" license, but can test to have the "full" license.
That's all that CCP is changing/adding with the skill change things. Hell, you can even keep the fractured-state scenario:
1. US gets split into UCAS, CAS, NAN and CFS in 2017 after the treaty of Denver. 2. All old US permanent residents are granted quadruple residencies by default, and can thus travel freely just like before. 3. Anyone wanting to become a resident after 2017 has to go the respective embassies to apply for the full set of permanent residencies so they can travel freely too.
The only difference is that the old geezers got it in the mail, whereas the poor newbies have to make those trips to the embassies (which the old ones had to do too, at some point, btw). Oh, and the old guys will have to carry around extra leafs in their old passports to signify this new and complicated setup GÇö something the old passports were not always designed for, and which makes them break more often.
De'Veldrin wrote:I have never liked that phrase - New and Improved. If it's New, it's never existed in it's current form before, so how can it be improved? And if you're improving it, doesn't that mean that it was already new at some some previous point in time? Just mentally inject the word GÇ£versionGÇ¥ and it all works out. Nothing is ever new these days GÇö it's all just revisions (good and bad) of the old. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13803
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 14:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Here is one tip which I think may come in useful to you and also many new players who are focusing on long term planning. Something to remember about +5 implants is that a full set of +5 implants is the equivalent price of a PLEX which is a month of training time. I worked this out a long time ago, but basically if you install two +5 implants, one for the primary attribute and one for the secondary attribute, it will take roughly one year of extra training to be as cost efficient as simply buying a PLEX. And this is assuming that your +5 implants actually last for year. GǪand then there's the whole training time vs. speed gain to consider. It's not quite as large an affect as the ISK, but it's one to consider nevertheless.
The difference in skill training between +3 and +5 implants is 767,250 SP, and that training earns you a training speed increase of 180 more SP per hour (assuming you get a set that always cover what you're going to train). That means it takes 4260 hours / 177 days to earn back the time spent on training the Cybernetics skill. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13807
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 16:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Manny Moons wrote:Tippia wrote:... 1. US gets split into UCAS, CAS, NAN and CFS in 2017 after the treaty of Denver. 2. All old US permanent residents are granted quadruple residencies by default, and can thus travel freely just like before. 3. Anyone wanting to become a resident after 2017 has to go the respective embassies to apply for the full set of permanent residencies so they can travel freely too.
Man, I gotta get my nose out of EVE and watch the news. I didn't know about any of this. You probably missed the 2001 Shiawase decision, too, which made corporations extraterritorial so they can raise their own armies and shoot runners on sight. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13810
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 17:18:00 -
[39] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:I never offended anyone, GǪother than in pretty much every one of your posts from page 4 and onward.
Quote:At some point even a calm and rational person like me Oh really? Could you please calmly and rationally explain why some people should be given new abilities just because others are allowed to retain theirs?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13814
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Fixed. Nope. You broke it again. Let's be charitable and just call it a strawman rather than outright lying and forgery. Let's also go back and repost the correct version since you have forgotten it, and see if you can get it right this time. Fiftyeleventh time is the charm, right?
PGéü: If things are bad, they can be improved. PGéé: The skill tree is getting improved, according to Tippia. C: The skill tree was bad, according to Tippia GåÉ non sequitur.
Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C? Or even better, how PGéé leads to C without PGéü GÇö that would be interestingGǪ
GǪor you can keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument.
I know you do. It was established ages ago that you understand what the non sequitur was and why it was one, and that you've only been trying to hide this fact ever since. That's why you have to keep moving the goalposts and inject strawmen to stay afloat.
Quote:thank you for admitting that you were wrong Non sequitur. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13814
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:08:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Fixed. Nope. You broke it again. Let's be charitable and just call it a strawman rather than outright lying and forgery.
Let's also go back and repost the actual question at hand since you have forgotten it, and see if you can get it right this time. Fiftytwelfth time is the charm, right?
PGéü: If things are bad, they can be improved. PGéé: The skill tree is getting improved, according to Tippia. C: The skill tree was bad, according to Tippia GåÉ non sequitur.
Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C? Or even better, how PGéé leads to C without PGéü GÇö that would be interestingGǪ
GǪor you can keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13814
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Fixed. Nope. You broke it again. Let's be charitable and just call it a strawman rather than outright lying and forgery.
Let's also go back and repost the actual question at hand since you have forgotten it, and see if you can get it right this time. Fiftythirteenth time is the charm, right?
PGéü: If things are bad, they can be improved. PGéé: The skill tree is getting improved, according to Tippia. C: The skill tree was bad, according to Tippia GåÉ non sequitur.
Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C? Or even better, how PGéé leads to C without PGéü GÇö that would be interestingGǪ
Oh. Ok.
Well, if you can't demonstrate that the conclusion actually follows, then I'll simply keep saying what I said from the very start GÇö that it doesn't follow; that it is a non sequitur. But you already knew this, which is why you had to keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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