Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:40:00 -
[61] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:[quote=James Syagrius]You're going to get justice. Us Gallenteans, your friends, are very skilled at delivering justice. You just have to be patient with us as there are a lot of things our process needs to cover regarding these unspeakable acts.
If your government would bother to keep us fully informed on the details, then maybe we could accept that.
And has it occurred to you that the Gallentean idea of justice in this scenario may well not match our own. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
770
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:[quote=James Syagrius]You're going to get justice. Us Gallenteans, your friends, are very skilled at delivering justice. You just have to be patient with us as there are a lot of things our process needs to cover regarding these unspeakable acts. If your government would bother to keep us fully informed on the details, then maybe we could accept that. And has it occurred to you that the Gallentean idea of justice in this scenario may well not match our own.
It's very clear that our ideas of justice differ. However this was a Gallente criminal who committed a crime on Gallente sovereignty against mostly Gallente citizens.
We understand and sympathize with those killed or injured that come from the Republic, however you have to understand that this is mostly a Gallente matter that you poor souls got pulled into.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
401
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
What right does the Republic have to demand a Gallente terrorist, who killed Gallente Citizens (and most importantly) on Gallente soil be delivered to the Republic justice system?
Yes it is regrettable that some Republic citizens including a leader held in high esteem was injured, but the Republic still has no jurisdiction. |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:It's very clear that our ideas of justice differ. However this was a Gallente criminal who committed a crime on Gallente sovereignty against mostly Gallente citizens.
We understand and sympathize with those killed or injured that come from the Republic, however you have to understand that this is mostly a Gallente matter that you poor souls got pulled into.
Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.
Xindi Kraid wrote:What right does the Republic have to demand a Gallente terrorist, who killed Gallente Citizens (and most importantly) on Gallente soil be delivered to the Republic justice system?
Yes it is regrettable that some Republic citizens including a leader held in high esteem was injured, but the Republic still has no jurisdiction.
You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction?
And you ignore that many, if not all, of the "Gallente Citizens" that were victims in the attack were Minmatar, regardless of their citizenship. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
401
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 00:18:00 -
[65] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote: Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.
Yes it is likely this was a racially motivated action, but the Republic is not the same thing as the Minmatar people. It is disingenuous to claim they speak for ALL Minmatar.
Quote:You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction? Yes, especially when it's a terrorist attack that harmed more than just that one person.
Sovereign entities retain the right to handle business in their space |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 01:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:Yes it is likely this was a racially motivated action, but the Republic is not the same thing as the Minmatar people. It is disingenuous to claim they speak for ALL Minmatar.
Republic Citizens or not, this is a Minmatar matter. Shakor had it right when he said, GÇ£This crime was perpetrated against the Minmatar people. Many of those slain and injured were Republic citizens, some visiting family and friends in the Federation. All were Minmatar and members of a tribe. One of our Rays lies at death's door thanks to the actions of this deranged madman. The Federation cannot handle prosecution properly. It is virtually unthinkable that they will deliver satisfaction to the Minmatar people.GÇ¥
Tribal ties come before national citizenship. |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
342
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 01:44:00 -
[67] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:James Syagrius wrote: Allies donGÇÖt threaten to kill you when they donGÇÖt get their way.
Its about time the Federation saw the Tribal entity for what it is. A gaggle of ungrateful beggars who canGÇÖt be trusted!
Because we were once on a friendly basis I'll attempt to remain civil in the face of your outrageously racist statement and simply point out that the Republic's government didn't threaten violence towards the Federation; Racist... the age old accusation flung to breed aversion towards those who express troublesome and unwanted opinion. I did not mentioned a race, but a political entity formerly called the Republic.
Somehow I expected more of you my once and would be friend.
Fredfredbug4 wrote:James Syagrius wrote: Your opinion is noted, as are their actions. When the dog bites, perhaps you will deem the merit of my opinion differently.
Nothing personal, but I hope you aren't proven right for the sake of New Eden. Though if that happens, you can personally send me an "I told you so" letter. I Sir respect you and your opinion. You may rest assured that the tenor of your comment assured no offence.
As to whom right will side. I hope she chooses yours, but the universe has a way of disappointing.
Should my opinion prove, you my rest assured no vainglorious missive shall come. "Crime when it succeeds is called virtue."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
|
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
344
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 02:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:You already answer your own question. If a Gallente leader was harmed or killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, would you claim that the Federation had no jurisdiction? I would imagine that we would.
If while at play your child strikes mine in your dwelling who would you expect to punish the offending child?
Katarina Musana wrote:And you ignore that many, if not all, of the "Gallente Citizens" that were victims in the attack were Minmatar, regardless of their citizenship.
Republic Citizens or not, this is a Minmatar matter. Tribal ties come before national citizenship. I am a great fool, I nearly missed this. I suppose age and vice are taking their toll. MaGÇÖdame Musana no doubt unwittingly distilled the thing.
Those in the Tribal Entity have no regard for citizenship or sovereignty. Only their opinion of blood matters. They alone are the arbiters of justice. A Minmatar no matter how removed from place or custom is considered to be Tribal forever by rite of blood!
Our compassion has made us blind. There is a boar in the garden of the Lord.... "Crime when it succeeds is called virtue."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
|
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
773
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 03:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:
Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.
First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente. There are of course racists but they make up the vast minority of people here. For the most part, race is but a footnote over here.
Secondly, even if Republic citizens were killed, you are no more right to handle this case than we are. If this entire thing was centered around who was killed and injured then wouldn't handing him over on the grounds that Republic citizens were killed be a massive injustice to the Gallenteans that were killed?
It was an attack against both of us. If the goal was to slaughter and maim Minmatar and only Minmatar there are much more precise ways he could of gone about it. Such as targeting Minmatar communities within the Federation, only firing on Minmatar at the massacre, or even using bio-weapons with race selective properties. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Astrid Stjerna
Underking Family
791
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 03:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:[quote=Katarina Musana]
I am a great fool, I nearly missed this. I suppose age and vice are taking their toll. MaGÇÖdame Musana no doubt unwittingly distilled the thing.
Those in the Tribal Entity have no regard for citizenship or sovereignty. Only their opinion of blood matters. They alone are the arbiters of justice. A Minmatar no matter how removed from place or custom is considered to be Tribal forever by rite of blood!
We have a lot of regard for citizenship and sovereignty. What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen.
And the Federation won't give him up. How would that look to you, if our positions were reversed? From this end, it looks like they're trying to quietly bury the whole affair.
I'm sorry I sound so bitter. I've just seen far too much in my life to put much stock in the 'good will' of humanity. I can't get rid of my darn signature!-á Oh, wait.... |
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
345
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:52:00 -
[71] - Quote
The basic legal quarrel here is simple: Federation law has it that because the crime happened in Federation territory, it should be judged solely under Federation law; tribal law has it that because the crime was clearly targeted against the tribe(s), tribal law has precedence.
I say precedence, because the shooter's tribal status has not been released. "Federal citizen" does not exclude the possibility that s/he was a member. If s/he was not, then obviously this is not a completely internal matter. If s/he was, on the other hand, tribal law - as I understand it, admittedly based on much lower level courts and no formal legal training - does not recognize the Federation's authority at all. No outsider may judge on an internal issue, unless explicitly requested to do so by the clan / tribe / alliance that holds jurisdiction.
That as a sidenote. Currently the Federation holds the culprit and so they can proceed as they like. This is unfortunate, but true. "As they like", by the way, unlike Captain Noh seems to be able to grasp, includes negotiation, should they so choose.
What remains puzzling is why the Federation courts chose to add the slur about not trusting tribal courts to judge fairly in their statement. Their legal case is sound (under their law), and the insult did not at all serve their goal of getting the tribes to accept their jurisdiction. A professional (which I have to assume Federation high courts are) would have left that bit unsaid, unless they had the explicit intent to provoke the target. What gives? |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:04:00 -
[72] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:
Gallente citizens who happen to be Minmatar, in addition to Republic citizens. It should be obvious that this was an attack against Minmatar as a race, and not against Gallenteans.
First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente. There are of course racists but they make up the vast minority of people here. For the most part, race is but a footnote over here. Secondly, even if Republic citizens were killed, you are no more right to handle this case than we are. If this entire thing was centered around who was killed and injured then wouldn't handing him over on the grounds that Republic citizens were killed be a massive injustice to the Gallenteans that were killed? It was an attack against both of us. If the goal was to slaughter and maim Minmatar and only Minmatar there are much more precise ways he could of gone about it. Such as targeting Minmatar communities within the Federation, only firing on Minmatar at the massacre, or even using bio-weapons with race selective properties.
Perhaps it was an attack against "both of us" rather than just the Tribes, but if that is the case, then the Federation should be collaborating with our Republic in their investigation rather than excluding us entirely. |
Sanadras Riahn
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:29:00 -
[73] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote: First off, race doesn't matter here in the Federation. You can be Brutor, Khanid, Deitis or whatever, if you are a Gallente citizen, you are Gallente.
It's for this precise reason that I will be revoking my status as a citizen of the Gallente Federation and returning to Republic space to mourn and hope with my Sebiestor brothers and sisters.
And considering the storm that is brewing and from whom, I would not be surprised to see an attempt on the Federation President's life. With any luck, it will go better for you than it has for us. "This is our way of wisdom, warrior. To be true. To be full. To include our hearts in every aspect of what we do. --- Let those that fly cold numbers be the Amarr. We fly better than that."---Alica Wildfire, inscribed on the inside and outer shell of Sanadras' Capsule. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1110
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 08:43:00 -
[74] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote: ... What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen. ...
We don't really know who is he, out authorities didn't release no info about him yet.
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
345
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 09:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
Authorities did not reveal information about the culprit as such, but the Federation court statement includes a hint:
Quote:This was a crime committed by a Federation citizen on Federation soil with a majority of Federation victims
So s/he was a citizen, apparently. |
TomHorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 12:18:00 -
[76] - Quote
Quote: the gunman detonated explosives in several locations around the facility, disabling key security measures and killing a number of personnel as well as several bystanders both inside the building and outside. He then opened fire with a high-powered automatic weapon from a hidden vantage point above the main conference hall. Approximately ten minutes later, upon learning the building was surrounded, he reportedly gave himself up to police without resistance.
You have to feel some kind of sympathy for the citizens of the Republic wanting to extradite the citizen and have him face a trial in their courts. Has as already been said one of their beloved figures is seriously injured, with many more injured and killed. As both nations are allies to keep good relations you would think Gallente Federation would agree to extradite the individual, even if it is not technically the correct thing to do legally speaking. With the total media blackout individual should be able to get a fair trial.
What do we actually know about the individual arrested, absolutley nothing. All we know explosives were detonated in several locations, and from hidden vantage point an individual opened fire. Once the building was surrounded someone came out and gave themselves up. Has the individual confessed to the crime , did anyone get a good look at the shooter , was he arrested with the weapon that actually comitted the crime. Are the Federation sure the shots were fired from that buidling. Have they actually got the real shooter incustody. Suppose we will just have to wait for Federation to release more information out into the public domain.
|
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
476
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 12:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Did the Minmatar and tribal higher authorities state that Federal authorities denied them information ?
Or is that just the public and the masses asking for sensitive information to be released ?
Ava Starfire wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Ah, the joy of politics exploiting human misery.
Both parties are seriously starting to sound like two dogs fighting over a bone. Or the bones of quite a decent amount of victims, if I may add.
I wonder how all their families feel about that. Ah, the joys of meaningless, look at me "contributions" to a discussion. As usual, you contribute to a discussion by demonstrating your moral superiority... and nothing else.
Thank you for not addressing my point, as usual.
You did not find anything better than a personal attack ? I will reiterate, you all hypocrites that usually claim to care about people feelings and how terrible this situation is for the victims, you sound exactly like the politicians trying to exploit the exact same misery to advance their personal agendas.
It would be wiser to be quiet and let the justice do its work. |
Adreena Madeveda
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 13:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.
It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism. ...................\o\ /o/................... |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1451
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 15:09:00 -
[79] - Quote
Adreena Madeveda wrote:If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.
It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism.
Dude what?
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
682
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 16:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Adreena Madeveda wrote:If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.
It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism. Dude what?
I believe that was directed at Lyn "Holier and Smarter Than Thou" Farel. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
|
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
198
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:04:00 -
[81] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:The basic legal quarrel here is simple: Federation law has it that because the crime happened in Federation territory, it should be judged solely under Federation law; tribal law has it that because the crime was clearly targeted against the tribe(s), tribal law has precedence.
Generously assuming that you understand the terminology, are you trying to say that while the Federation has jurisdiction, the choice of laws that its courts should apply are "tribal?" And is "tribal" being used primarily as an emotionally hip rust elf synonym for "Matari;" or do each of those squabbling little packs of primitives have their own legal systems?
Hypothetical: Brutor kills Sebiestor on station administered by Krusual in Republic space.
Who has jurisdiction and which law applies? |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
478
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 18:19:00 -
[82] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Anslo wrote:Adreena Madeveda wrote:If it's within the reach and the ability to involve itself into the world of a cucumber, it's not wisdom.
It's... well, I guess it's cucumberism. Dude what? I believe that was directed at Lyn "Holier and Smarter Than Thou" Farel.
Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...
^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
775
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:57:00 -
[83] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote: Perhaps it was an attack against "both of us" rather than just the Tribes, but if that is the case, then the Federation should be collaborating with our Republic in their investigation rather than excluding us entirely.
I'd personally be fine with Minmatar collaboration, however that's only based off of the extremely limited knowledge we have. Right now, there is nothing to suggest that the Minmatar shouldn't collaborate with us, nor is there anything to suggest that they should.
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
It's for this precise reason that I will be revoking my status as a citizen of the Gallente Federation and returning to Republic space to mourn and hope with my Sebiestor brothers and sisters.
You know, you don't need to revoke your citizenship just to travel to Republic space. Not only does the Federation allow unrestricted movement of citizens, but capsuleers have unlimited movement as well.
Quote: And considering the storm that is brewing and from whom, I would not be surprised to see an attempt on the Federation President's life.
Is this a threat?
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
346
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote: We have a lot of regard for citizenship and sovereignty. What you seem unable to grasp is that one of our most beloved political figures is dying because of the actions of a Gallente citizen.
And the Federation won't give him up. How would that look to you, if our positions were reversed? From this end, it looks like they're trying to quietly bury the whole affair.
I'm sorry I sound so bitter. I've just seen far too much in my life to put much stock in the 'good will' of humanity.
You assume a good deal in assessing my grasp, be sure to look in all the corners.
GÇ£Beloved political figureGÇ¥, and I thought Federation politics was fickel.. The same GÇ£beloved figureGÇ¥ that was unceremoniously bounced from her exalted office by the very same mod now wailing her praise.
Who are GÇ£theyGÇ¥, these dark figures you have conjured that want to bury the affair? Trials in the Federation are spectacles, the media will make certain of that.
While you're wondering about reversed positions... how do you think it looks to the Federation. "Crime when it succeeds is called virtue."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
|
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:nor is there anything to suggest that they should.
Did you forget who the victims of the attack were? |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
904
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:43:00 -
[86] - Quote
The Federation is gloriously demonstrating what it believes of our government, the Minmatar people's culture, and the competence of our judicial system.
They are also demonstrating what simply wonderful allies they are by telling us nothing.
Pretty much status quo. Treat us like children, and if we get angry, act surprised and yell "But youre acting like children! Waah!"
And Farel, go eat a cucumber.
Or maybe do something else with it. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
776
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:15:00 -
[87] - Quote
When friends disagree, more important than the statment of disagreement is the statement and affirmation, "We are still friends." In recent days, I have become convinced all the more of the importance of this. Those who desire to bring terror and anarchy to our cluster are looking for the door to crack open. When an alliance, a friendship, weakens to the point where animosity develops, the violent will enter that doorway.
In this tense time, the Federation and the Republic need to say to one another, "We will get through this and we will stay friends." This does not diminish the severity of the disagreement, but does affirm commitment to friendship. It sends a signal to those who would foment violence from instabilty that these quarreling friends remain friends regardless. The Disciples of Ston bid you peace |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
347
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
Quote:Hypothetical: Brutor kills Sebiestor on station administered by Krusual in Republic space.
As I understand (and I still do not have formal legal training or experience in inter-tribal courts), Krusual personnel will likely do the initial arrest and investigation, as they are on site. They will be compensated for their trouble, and Sebiestor personnel will take over in co-operation with the Krusual station. Sebiestor court will judge in co-operation with Brutor advisory. When a decision is reached, the Brutor will likely request and be given custody of the culprit and for the punishment itself.
I used "tribal" there instead of Matari, because based on current information this is primarily a Sebiestor matter. When more information on the victims is released, it might turn out it is a Republic matter ("Republic" as in the alliance of tribes), if most/all tribes were wronged and we want to deal with that on alliance lever. "Tribal" covers both options.
Hope this clarifies. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
687
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:
Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...
^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite.
You're correct, it was pretty lame, to be honest. I'd hoped for much better. I guess the rarefied air on that holy high mountain you sit on must be depriving your brain of oxygen. Oh well, keep trying hon. Someday you'll be able to play with the big kids.
Oh, and I guess this does prove that you're still, at least nominally, human since your ego and pride demanded that you respond.
What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote: And Farel, go eat a cucumber.
You need salt.
And you wonder why people treat you as children ?
Anabella Rella wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:
Considering the value of your answer, it does not seem like something really difficult to achieve...
^ How was it for a personal attack ? I did my best, but I am not convinced. It sounds pretty trite.
You're correct, it was pretty lame, to be honest. I'd hoped for much better. I guess the rarefied air on that holy high mountain you sit on must be depriving your brain of oxygen. Oh well, keep trying hon. Someday you'll be able to play with the big kids. Oh, and I guess this does prove that you're still, at least nominally, human since your ego and pride demanded that you respond.
I guess it all boils down to a matter of tastes. I personally find my own snipe, as much trite and petty as this kind of vapid things always are, ten times better than your own. All of them. It is no wonder why people often refer to the IGS as a cesspool.
Also, that proves exactly nothing since I do not obviously share your definition of being human. As much as facts tend to prove otherwise, I do not define being human by its proportion of utterly superficial and over emotional behaviors. That would be closer to the definition of an animal. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |