Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 44 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
386
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:09:00 -
[721] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:abloobloobloo
So what you're mad about is that after a few ten thousands of man hours a group of nullsec players is coming close to the isk generation abilities of worry free highsec bring back images |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
243
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:19:00 -
[722] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote: Fun fact, CCP have stated multiple times that they want to see highsec as a training ground and not as a permanent home.
True fact, Several highsec isk generating systems have been nerfed/downgraded over the oast 3 years. Lets start with Incursions, the only equivelent to isk generation that nullbears have as standard (hi there forsaken cashcows!!). Several "balances" have been made to them ALL being negative to isk generation.
Lets take missions and the deployment of sleeper esque AI. Great, slightly smarter rats that decide that drones, even when idle, are Adolf Hitlers lovechildren and must be executed regardless of the tactical situation. Thank you and goodnight anyone wishing to use drones, oh and the 2009 "balance" pass on missions that killed the reward system. Add in the inclusion of the mostly abused Faction Warfare LP giveaway that further drives certain popular mission corps LP value into the ground.
So excuse us highsec dwellers, we tend to look down on risk averse moon goo/OMFGForsaken Isk/RMT fueled windowlickers that think just because they are in null they are the pinnacle of the game.
Sadly, the truth is that 50% of eve are solo players who do not wish to move to 0.0, or pucker up and kiss Mitten's ass, and make do with what we do in empire. And we pay for this game, too, nulltards. However, CCP continues to **** vigorously on half it's subscribers. Now I'm not going to panic and scream 'The end of eve is near' but customer retention is important in any MMO. And if CCP says they don't care about it, they're lying. (See Incarna for what happened when suddenly a large number of long time players pulled their subs)
When will high sec have it's expansion, CCP? I know some of this stuff is shared, like new ship graphics, but let's have an expansion where we really develop high sec instead of a non-0stop Christmas for 0.0.
Oh, and I liked the above just for the 'windowlicker' comment alone, having seen members of GSF playing in two other games and wondered if they were high or what as they proclaimed goonswarm to rule World of Tanks. Pro tip: My E100 trumps a WZ131, I don't care what clan, guild, or alliance you are a member of, particularly if you drive it directly at me.
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:23:00 -
[723] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Holderof Corp wrote:abloobloobloo So what you're mad about is that after a few ten thousands of man hours a group of nullsec players is coming close to the isk generation abilities of worry free highsec
Not at all, I fully agree that null>low>high in isk generation. However it seem many nullbears think that high is a land of milk and honey where there is nothing but isk falling into your lap as soon as you log in. That misconception is perpetuated by certain nullsec leaders, and by those who need to craft a narrative to justify griefing mechanics.
I am, in the parlance, not mad. I am excited by the changes that are coming. I worry as both a researcher and T2 inventor that some of the changes are going to put me out of business, I am only a small timer without the moon goo/rat tax income of other larger entities. Is it too much to voice your concern when you can see your primary income being chipped away in favour of groups who already have huge income potential?
|
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
776
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:26:00 -
[724] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:Is it too much to voice your concern when you can see your primary income being chipped away in favour of groups who already have huge income potential?
When you converse remotely like a reasonable adult, like in this latest post, no. |
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:27:00 -
[725] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Holderof Corp wrote:True fact, Several highsec isk generating systems have been nerfed/downgraded over the oast 3 years. So hisec has received both nerfs and buffs over the last three years, just like every other security area of space? Great, sounds like balanced development.
And yet the net effect has always been negative to isk generation.
Admittedly the trusec nerf hurt many i nullsec but as has been seen, the income is still massive beyond what can be realised in highsec.
Balancing also assumes that the system in place gets tweaked and changed in small way, not wholesale reworking. I like the ice changes, I think that CCP is attempting to socially craft people out of highsec and into the political nutfuck that is nullsec. That sort of engineering is not a nerf or buff, it is an agenda that fuels the current feeling that CCP if for null. |
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:29:00 -
[726] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Holderof Corp wrote:Is it too much to voice your concern when you can see your primary income being chipped away in favour of groups who already have huge income potential? When you converse remotely like a reasonable adult, like in this latest post, no.
It's okay, I took my pills this morning |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
243
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:37:00 -
[727] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:I think that CCP is attempting to socially craft people out of highsec and into the political nutfuck that is nullsec. That sort of engineering is not a nerf or buff, it is an agenda that fuels the current feeling that CCP if for null.
And what they seem to fail to understand is that some of us simply do not want to. My own personal experience with the nullsec clusterfrag left a bad taste in my mouth and frankly, i see anyone who 'wants' to go take part in that as being either mentally disabled or a total sociopath who just wants to get his jollies greifing without having to work for anything.
Granted, that's only based on my experience with... every single person I have ever encountered past 0.1, and in fact, one of the more hilarious ones was a bunch of idiots blowing me up and costing their own corp in the process, they had such a hard on for one more kill. (Never mind being blue AND the fact I was carrying billions in goods they had already paid for.)
If CCP wants to get people into null sec, it's not the people in high sec that need to change, it's the people in null.
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
778
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:47:00 -
[728] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:And yet the net effect has always been negative to isk generation.
I can't confirm this either way, but it would be disingenuous to not admit that this is also my impression.
It basically comes down to "how far is too far?" and "what are you replacing it with?"
As to the first, I guess we'll see. There's not much point in engaging in the hyperbole of who's going to cancel more accounts, and this is an area that CCP is dedicated to tracking closely with their superior resources. Furthermore, the discussion of what will likely be better for the overall health of the game is already over, the result of which are the changes we're seeing.
As to the latter issue, I think CCP has dropped the ball somewhat here, and every change that limits the gameplay of hisec by shifting it to nullsec should be matched by fresh gameplay that is appropriate for casual players that isn't just another isk-generation sop of the sort that started this problem in the first place.
I highly doubt there's anything that can be done to turn back the tide of development as it now stands. The die is cast, and we'll have to wait to see if The Great Unsubbing actually comes to pass. However, if I was a casual hisec player, I would be lobbying my new CSMs hard to ensure that new casual and hisec appropriate content was being brought in to replace the "supply nullsec with stuff" content that is being moved to nullsec. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5653
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:07:00 -
[729] - Quote
There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:12:00 -
[730] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
le sigh, makes me want to post some ascii art from Delve '10.
|
|
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn
223
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:28:00 -
[731] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
Seems that someone wrote an article on some gaming news site that talked about that, that person might even be active in this thread.
Thank you for not surprising anyone with the direction you plan on taking to address the imbalance in null anomalies. I mean it is so comforting to see the normal process of saying "gee people like doing this one type of content and avoid all the others. Obviously the solution is to make forsaken hubs suck just as much as all the others" rather than simply adjusting the other anomalies to be more like hubs and perhaps encourage people to spend more time out ratting where maybe they might get blown up.
Sarcasm aside it's amusing to see all the highsec tears about ice and the ranting about how much CCP is trying to push people to null in the very same thread where the intention of killing off the a major income source of null sec grunts is announced.
|
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
619
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:33:00 -
[732] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:However it seem many nullbears think that high is a land of milk and honey where there is nothing but isk falling into your lap as soon as you log in.
Ice mining is welfare. You show up to the welfare office (ice belt) and get a small check every month (five minutes in our case) if you ask nicely (press F1 then wait) and have to take it to the bank (Jita) to cash it. |
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:34:00 -
[733] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. Seems that someone wrote an article on some gaming news site that talked about that, that person might even be active in this thread. Thank you for not surprising anyone with the direction you plan on taking to address the imbalance in null anomalies. I mean it is so comforting to see the normal process of saying "gee people like doing this one type of content and avoid all the others. Obviously the solution is to make forsaken hubs suck just as much as all the others" rather than simply adjusting the other anomalies to be more like hubs and perhaps encourage people to spend more time out ratting where maybe they might get blown up. Sarcasm aside it's amusing to see all the highsec tears about ice and the ranting about how much CCP is trying to push people to null in the very same thread where the intention of killing off the a major income source of null sec grunts is announced.
Ah, but to use an overused rejoinder so popular with the null crowd, adapt or die. Adding in a few elite frigates does nothing but slow you down, so rather than 8 minutes it now takes you 9 to complete a FH. Removing ice to anom and reducing them to 23 mining hours with a 4 hour respawn is a tad bit more serious, both economically and to the foundation of POS ownership. Remember earlier in this thread currently 99% (ish) of ice products are produced in highsec, so please a small balance of an open isk tap is not really in the same league as the ice changes. |
Holderof Corp
Behind the Horizon
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:37:00 -
[734] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Holderof Corp wrote:However it seem many nullbears think that high is a land of milk and honey where there is nothing but isk falling into your lap as soon as you log in. Ice mining is welfare. You show up to the welfare office (ice belt) and get a small check every month (five minutes in our case) if you ask nicely (press F1 then wait) and have to take it to the bank (Jita) to cash it.
Honestly I chuckled. I never said the current system is right, its broken to buggeration but the new system does nothing to address the real issues behind ice mining. Sad to say it is a band aid to fix a sliced off arm. |
Linament
Lokis Veil
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:38:00 -
[735] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
No interest in frogs...but point taken. Could you then speak to the following?
How does the upcoming expansion relate to - Removing barriers to entry, Set a path to the next few years of EVE development as a product, Not catering to long time veteran players /alliances /corporations in 0.0 (largest share of the vocal minority), Increasing new player accounts, Reducing the "Drowning in Minutia" syndrome (Spreadsheets for everything and an excel based UI), Making the game "a game for everyone"
Or for that matter how does it relate to anything in the meeting minutes that were posted from the CSM ?
I mean you guys are the ones tossing out this word salad stuff and CCP is the one that keeps pushing this CSM stuff...we just got through with an election....why go through all this if its ..well meaningless. Is the CSM and the meeting you have some kind of internal CCP meta game?...let me be clear..im no fan of the CSM..i personally think its a complete waste of everyones time and if what is being posted in the meetings is just lip service or some other layer of garbage..then whats the point.
Im not really attacking anything or any idea here..its that if the updates and expansions are not going to match what were being told through the CSM...why bother with it at all.
So if you could..could you just elaborate a bit more on how this expansion / update relates to any of the CSM discussions. |
ChYph3r
Unlawful Unit Here Be Dragons
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:40:00 -
[736] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
I say dissect the frogs, learn from them! http://evepodcasts.com PODSIDE Producer @chyph3r-á on Twitter
|
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:46:00 -
[737] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
Ribbet Ribbet Croak |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
225
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:34:00 -
[738] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
CCP Foozie, could you answer the question I posed to you on page 31, post #614? I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1872
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:37:00 -
[739] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:Seems that someone wrote an article on some gaming news site that talked about that, that person might even be active in this thread. I believe this to be my very first post in this thread.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Kynric
Sky Fighters Talocan United
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:44:00 -
[740] - Quote
It is curious that there is a game design goal to make null sec industrialists self sufficient, but to on purpose not allow wormhole industrialist to be self sufficient. Why not add random ice belts to wormholes? Why is increasing the game play of null sec industrialist valued and not that of wormhole industrialists? More ships moving and doing more things makes the game better imo.
Also, IMO why make the spawns so predicatabile (4 hour interval and always in the same systems?) Variability usually makes the gaming experience better. |
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5660
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:51:00 -
[741] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. CCP Foozie, could you answer the question I posed to you on page 31, post #614?
I advise using https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359, it makes answering these kinds of questions much easier. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:09:00 -
[742] - Quote
Linament wrote: No interest in frogs...but point taken. Could you then speak to the following?
How does the upcoming expansion relate to - 1. Removing barriers to entry, 2. Set a path to the next few years of EVE development as a product, 3. Not catering to long time veteran players /alliances /corporations in 0.0 (largest share of the vocal minority), 4. Increasing new player accounts, 5. Reducing the "Drowning in Minutia" syndrome (Spreadsheets for everything and an excel based UI), 6. Making the game "a game for everyone"
Ok, so. Some stuff we're working on that I can remember off the top of my head:
- A bunch of stuff from Team PE, most notably a completely revised radial menu plus assorted very neat "basic controls" UI gubbins that I can't remember if we've shown yet but that you'll definitely notice once you hit the test server that all combine to make the core task of flying your ship easier and more intuitive - 1, 3, 5, 6 off the bat, hopefully 4 as part of a general effort to improve early-game experience, and by addressing 5 as it relates to core UX, 2 as well
- New scanner overlay to seamlessly highlight and provide access to exploration content for which you previously needed specialist tools just to know it was there - 1, 3, 5, 6 and with the same reasoning as above, 2 and 4
- A raft of other adjustments to how scanning and exploration work, including probe formations, a more comprehensible scanner window, and various other things that again you'll find when it hits the test server - 1, 3, and 6, 5 to a somewhat lesser degree, and hopefully again at least 4 and arguably 2
- New hacking/archaeology mechanics that turn "activate module, wait an arbitrary amount of time" into an engaging, skill-driven puzzle, derived from a new drive towards prototyping stuff - 3, 5, 6, and definitely 2
...and then a bunch of other stuff that my somewhat tired brain is failing to recall right now. And yes, Fozzie, with some help from Bettik, is doing a bunch of changes to resource distribution, which is one of the I want to say three (but I may be forgetting one, see previous disclaimer) major features that one of the five (I think) main EVE feature teams is working on for this expansion. We're hoping it's going to make a big impact on the economic/industrial ecosystem as the changes propagate through the system, but there's plenty of other stuff going on. |
|
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
319
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:24:00 -
[743] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
If I paint frogs all over my barges, will you rethink this whole grav site change in wormholes?
/pretty please? //with sugar on top? ///I have cherries... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1798
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:29:00 -
[744] - Quote
Maul555 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. If I paint frogs all over my barges, will you rethink this whole grav site change in wormholes? /pretty please? //with sugar on top? ///I have cherries... Or if you do not, please track W space mining, and consider doing something if it drops to the floor. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Frying Doom
2456
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:47:00 -
[745] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Maul555 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. If I paint frogs all over my barges, will you rethink this whole grav site change in wormholes? /pretty please? //with sugar on top? ///I have cherries... Or if you do not, please track W space mining, and consider doing something if it drops to the floor. I honestly dont know if I could be stuffed moving back to a wormhole, it took me days to get everything out.
Lets face it the only reason to mine in a WH now, is to act as bait. Any spelling and grammatical errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Star Dragonsbane
Haifa Shipworks and Logistics
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 00:15:00 -
[746] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
I would like to respond back if I may. You have been telling us subscribers for a couple months now that you are making this change and that change benefiting null sec. No problem. You tell us your changing scanning, a huge game mechanic for some of us now useless not to mention obliterating the joy of working and then reaping from said challenge of probing for it in the first place. You just took a awesome part of mining and once again screwed it for us veteran miners that actually appreciated a little challenge in finding something worth while in high sec without going to null. Still no problem, stupid as it may be. Still think you guys did that because someone on your team was to lazy to probe but whatever. Then you release that video of the new change, where empires are crumbling and dying. Really and you want us to not think your planning to kill hi sec. What the hell, we aren't stupid and if this isn't your intention, fire that graphic designer you had come up with that video and issue a new one correcting the obvious condentation. Please stop being vague in coming soons, we don't need a carrot, what we want is straight forwardness and honest. Very simple things to ask yet never receive it seems. I like your work in the past and I hope for a promising future for eve, but if you want trust and admiration, please just tell us where you are planning to take eve so we don't waist each others time. Thanks Star |
Crexa
Ion Industrials
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 00:16:00 -
[747] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. CCP Foozie, could you answer the question I posed to you on page 31, post #614? I advise using https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359, it makes answering these kinds of questions much easier. In all seriousness however, I do expect that the increase in rewards will motivate people to use creativity and teamwork and overcome the extra challenge.
No idea what frogs have to do with resource allocation in EvE (i do get the attempt at humor) . But what are these increases in rewards you speak of? I see a lot of things moving around but no increases just reductions. "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
940
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 00:19:00 -
[748] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. CCP Foozie, could you answer the question I posed to you on page 31, post #614? I advise using https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359, it makes answering these kinds of questions much easier. In all seriousness however, I do expect that the increase in rewards will motivate people to use creativity and teamwork and overcome the extra challenge. Point was it will take less time to get to you than for you to get out and combat pilots as a general rule hate defensivly waiting in an gravimetric site or asteroid belt in hopes some will come along. As was stated many times before the increased reward would have been good enough if the sites still needed to be scanned down, but with the proposed changes the reward are not worth the absolute rush that will be in mining in low and empire null sec. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
351
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 01:06:00 -
[749] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:when called on this statement you first tried to lie about what you posted, and when that was wrong tried to claim that when you wrote "tech" you actually meant "tech or anything that is not tech" and glossed over that you'd just gotten caught red-handed lying about what you wrote not an hour ago
so let's stay on this issue until we've cleared it up to everyone you should not be listened to, ever.
This is why I prefer to post anonymously... lol. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 01:17:00 -
[750] - Quote
Holderof Corp wrote:Fun fact, CCP have stated multiple times that they want to see highsec as a training ground and not as a permanent home. I dunno. High-sec is awfully big for just a training ground.
I think that if CCP really wanted to nerf high-sec over the years, the right place to start would be by gradually lowering system sec status to below 0.5, for most of high-sec. Certainly, this would have been more effective than making weird obscure changes which have not seemed to have affected high-sec population numbers much, if at all. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 44 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |