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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 32 post(s) |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2013.04.27 05:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Understand where I am coming from. I think the designers at CCP are intelligent people who do good work for the game and have worthy goals. ItGÇÖs true, I have personally lamented the fact that design documents always included real at the expense of fun when considering new features to add into EVE when I thought both factors should be included. For example, the new multi-launch probe system with preset formations is both fun enhancing and feels real. It is a great addition to the game in my view.
However, the new system of hacking a hull by way of a mini-game that results in an explosion of goodies you and a pal have to run catch or lose looks to be a SILLY addition to play. ItGÇÖs a feature more worthy of an action game that doesnGÇÖt take itself seriously instead of a a space sim like EVE. I think they should keep the goodies in a can to collect even if said can looks like a space ship to loot now. There are better ways to make exploration less of a solo activity but I am not sure they can kill multi-boxing on PC to get around this anyway as boxer can account for it.
I understand the need to make the game more accessible to new players. I understand making the game look nicer to improve its appeal with gate, docking, and new probe interface animations. ItGÇÖs why I can accept the change in terminology for site names. But none of it should be done at the expense of actual, in-depth, play. Put it all together with the catch and grab mechanic and its like some one is looking to GÇ£dumb downGÇ¥ the game into an action game for PS4, tablets, mobiles, and novelty gadgets like Oculus.
There are enough shallow, pretty looking, little action games on the market right now and EVEGÇÖs intelligence, depth and breadth, is the only thing that keeps people here and playing as long as they do. I know the game has to grow and adapt but not at the cost of its core values with features like that.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4845
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Posted - 2013.04.27 05:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.
The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2013.04.27 05:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anyone got a video for this? As someone who explores I am interested. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative.
514
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 05:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Anyone got a video for this? As someone who explores I am interested. ah, its on CCP's twitch TV channel, but basically its a minigame similar to Deus Ex hacking. and once your done a ball explodes sending goodies everywhere on your screen you have to click when theya re green, after grabbing oen they turn red, then a few seconds later turn green again, its basically designed so that you CANT get all the loot by yourself, and if your monitor isnt very good, or your a little laggy, or you have poor eyesight, youll no longer be able to reap the rewards of exploration sites. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
301
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Posted - 2013.04.27 05:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hmmm. Going point on eyesight. CCP, definitely avoid green-red -- green-red colorblindness is an issue. Possibly work with color intensity or something as such?
That said, imagine this: you're hacking open the cargo bay on an abandoned ship/structure/whatev. The bay opens, and decompression sends stuff flying. Voila.
I think it's a clever way to release goods, and incentivize group activity, something most scanning lacked before. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
44
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Posted - 2013.04.27 05:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.
The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic.
If you desire to add game play to a GÇ£blandGÇ¥ mechanic like hacking is a thoughtful, planned hacking mini-game a better alternative on its own? You could simply create versions of the mini-game requiring multiple players for advanced sites to defeat multi-boxing and make it less the solo activity rather than adding a GÇ£twitchGÇ¥ catch the loot mechanic to a sim. EVE itself has never been a very GÇ£activeGÇ¥ play game like a shooter and you can ask if this new mechanic goes against the nature of play established over the years too strongly.
Makoto Priano wrote:Hmmm. Going point on eyesight. CCP, definitely avoid green-red -- green-red colorblindness is an issue. Possibly work with color intensity or something as such?
That said, imagine this: you're hacking open the cargo bay on an abandoned ship/structure/whatev. The bay opens, and decompression sends stuff flying. Voila.
I think it's a clever way to release goods, and incentivize group activity, something most scanning lacked before.
I could counter by asking why not simply allow salvage drones to collect the goods in such case as its a perfect extension of their role that could make them useful in play. That brings us back to square one where you donGÇÖt really need the twitch play mechanic or another person? Why not simply keep the basic can mechanic then? |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative.
514
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Hmmm. Going point on eyesight. CCP, definitely avoid green-red -- green-red colorblindness is an issue. Possibly work with color intensity or something as such?
That said, imagine this: you're hacking open the cargo bay on an abandoned ship/structure/whatev. The bay opens, and decompression sends stuff flying. Voila.
I think it's a clever way to release goods, and incentivize group activity, something most scanning lacked before. I still think screen size is a legitimate issue, its practically go big or get out, especially for people who play on some of the older laptops, it would be near impossible to click the little buggers (now i use a desktop that runs 3 clients on all max settings fine, but many of my friends dont)
also, as Talbot mentioned the minigame
i can see this ending BADLY for low/null sites, where you often try to nija and GTFO, good chance of getting targeted and popped while you havea big window in your face blocking everything, would definetly discourage these activities in sapce that isnt balls deep in blue, or highsec. similar reason to why i shoot down in any thread wanting to bring minigames to mining. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
16
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Posted - 2013.04.27 06:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
This sounds completely out of place in EVE. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2013.04.27 06:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:This sounds completely out of place in EVE.
It really does. I'll check out this vid in a sec though. TBH I've been trying to get my friends into lowsec and a game like this could actually help with that. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Drunken Bum
131
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games. Spare some change?-á |
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Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2013.04.27 06:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote:Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.
Scanning is a minigame. It's just one in which the "terrain" affects it, along with player fittings. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Drunken Bum wrote:Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games. Scanning is a minigame. It's just one in which the "terrain" affects it, along with player fittings.
True enough. But scanning and probing play out like a logical extension of piloting your ship inside the simulation (it feels REAL) so that most people donGÇÖt notice the fact rather than as a cobbled in twitch mechanic that runs contrary to established play methodology so strongly that it sticks out like a bruised thumb... |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators Hostile Work Environment.
13
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Posted - 2013.04.27 06:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
That's too bad. I usually run radars and mags on my lunch break so when I play in the evenings I can go PVP. Doesn't sound like the new mechanic is going to suit me much, I hope someone likes it at least |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1457
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
There is only one game that did the hacking mini-game right. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
As long as they make it feel like a logical extension of existing gameplay mechanics, or at least a fairly "sci fi" minigame, I'm okay with it. Sounds like they're not going to do that though. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
As someone who practically lives off exploration income, I would like to chime in to say that this sounds utterly ********. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 06:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Hmmm. Going point on eyesight. CCP, definitely avoid green-red -- green-red colorblindness is an issue. Possibly work with color intensity or something as such?
That said, imagine this: you're hacking open the cargo bay on an abandoned ship/structure/whatev. The bay opens, and decompression sends stuff flying. Voila.
I think it's a clever way to release goods, and incentivize group activity, something most scanning lacked before. I still think screen size is a legitimate issue, its practically go big or get out, especially for people who play on some of the older laptops, it would be near impossible to click the little buggers (now i use a desktop that runs 3 clients on all max settings fine, but many of my friends dont) also, as Talbot mentioned the minigame i can see this ending BADLY for low/null sites, where you often try to nija and GTFO, good chance of getting targeted and popped while you havea big window in your face blocking everything, would definetly discourage these activities in sapce that isnt balls deep in blue, or highsec. similar reason to why i shoot down in any thread wanting to bring minigames to mining.
I hadn't really considered the screen size issue and it's true that we live in an age where the laptops are starting to outnumber the traditional PC even amongst game players. When it comes to the break through the firewall mini-game itself, again it is a play mechanic that doesn't seem to play out like a logical extension of piloting your ship but I could compromise it they work on it. Cobbled in twitch for a sim? I need to crack an active computer firewall to salvage parts from a centries old exploded derilect ship? None of this seems to have a place in EVE or to fit. As to how actual exploration might play out in low/null... IDK. |
Gnoshia
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
22
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Posted - 2013.04.27 07:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well it's better than the old system that much is certain.
Clicking a module and waiting to loot the can was about as mind-less and boring as you can possibly imagine. Granted this new version isn't much better, but it's enormously better than the old system. |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
The twitch to get stuff that is jettisoned into space mechanic looks all manner of wrong, and is a backwards step. Especially due to the number windows that I generally have open, I just won't see most of them, due to them getting hidden behind chat windows/the overview, cargohold etc
The Hacking minigame thing? what the?? can someone actually explain how this is actually meant to work, seems more like he clicked on random crap on the screen. Again it looks to be a backwards step, especially again due to having multiple screens open and screen sizes and the like that other posters have mentioned. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
463
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:The twitch to get stuff that is jettisoned into space mechanic looks all manner of wrong, and is a backwards step. Especially due to the number windows that I generally have open, I just won't see most of them, due to them getting hidden behind chat windows/the overview, cargohold etc
The Hacking minigame thing? what the?? can someone actually explain how this is actually meant to work, seems more like he clicked on random crap on the screen. Again it looks to be a backwards step, especially again due to having multiple screens open and screen sizes and the like that other posters have mentioned. I'm in two parts about this.
One part is screaming exactly what you've stated.
But the other part is injecting that new mechanics might in the end lead to new habits and ways of handling this.
If profitable enough.
I'll decide if I'll silently accept and burn some monument after I've tried it for some months.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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Verrys
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 08:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Truly awesome game. |
bartos100
Living Ghost
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
i agree that the flying items are kind of strange unless they raised the value of the items that drop so that even if you don't catch all of them you still get something useful to sell
and if i heard correctly they will be removing all npc's from both the radar and the mag sites making it a lot easier to go roaming in low/null in say a cov'ops to run those and making it that you only have to watch out for other players
and if i saw correctly you can change the size of the window for the minigame so you can keep an eye on local and d-scan |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
838
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 08:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sooo. are they going to make lvl 4 missions also a group effort? Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 09:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
I thought CCP was committed to supporting solo play as part of EVE. Now all of the sudden, for exploration, which is what many solo players choose to do, you need a "buddy" to fast twitch catch loot? It doesn't seem right. I choose exploration because it's something you do on your own pace, now all the sudden you have to stress over fast disappearing loot after hacking. You've got PLENTY of things to worry about in EVE. There's the constant threat of PvP. I don't understand why one of the best solo activities was made into an arcade game.
Why not make asteroids explode as well? Maybe make all ships that are destroyed...actually blow up and have the loot vanish in seconds...why penalize explorers with this exploding/vanishing loot mechanic? See how well PvP players enjoy loot vanishing in a few seconds.
Highly questionable IMO. When exploring, you earn your "loot" by taking the time to scan down and discovered sites, and now, I guess, by playing a hacking game. Are they trying to push solo players back to mining? You shouldn't need a "buddy" to be present to click on little colored moving dots on the screen for an otherwise great solo activity in EVE. The game mechanic should be to determine what your reward is after this hacking game and then let the reward sit on the screen as long as any other item normally would while, just like everywhere else in EVE, under thread of being ganked. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
358
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 09:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
I hope that this stuff is for wormholes too. G££ <= Me |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 09:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alright I've looked for info on these new hacking/salvaging/archaeology minigames and I can't find the video. This thread desperately needs a video for those of us too stupid/busy/ignorant/drunk to have watched the original video.(for the record I was busy being drunk) Anyone willing to provide? This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 09:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Alright I've looked for info on these new hacking/salvaging/archaeology minigames and I can't find the video. This thread desperately needs a video for those of us too stupid/busy/ignorant/drunk to have watched the original video.(for the record I was busy being drunk) Anyone willing to provide?
Hacking starts about 1:13:00 into the video
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2208288 |
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
1302
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 09:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
I liked it. I used to do exploration all the time, the probing bit was fun but the hacking/analyzing part? Ehh, completely braindead activity.
Also lots of opportunities to ninja other people's loot |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 10:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Arin Archer wrote:Garresh wrote:Alright I've looked for info on these new hacking/salvaging/archaeology minigames and I can't find the video. This thread desperately needs a video for those of us too stupid/busy/ignorant/drunk to have watched the original video.(for the record I was busy being drunk) Anyone willing to provide? Hacking starts about 1:13:00 into the video http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/c/2208288
Much Obliged. I'll make a point not to shoot you next time I'm getting drunk and shooting people. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 11:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
ItGÇÖs already possible to ninja an exploration site and have fun with people in low and null. I see no need to make it easier to grief a group of explorers in hi sec than it is to do so to a miner in hi sec now with a silly mechanic... Going grant kill rights off of vanishing loot catches they nab before you can twitch? I mean really?
Arin Archer wrote:I thought CCP was committed to supporting solo play as part of EVE. Now all of the sudden, for exploration, which is what many solo players choose to do, you need a "buddy" to fast twitch catch loot? It doesn't seem right. I choose exploration because it's something you do on your own pace, now all the sudden you have to stress over fast disappearing loot after hacking. You've got PLENTY of things to worry about in EVE. There's the constant threat of PvP. I don't understand why one of the best solo activities was made into an arcade game.
Why not make asteroids explode as well? Maybe make all ships that are destroyed...actually blow up and have the loot vanish in seconds...why penalize explorers with this exploding/vanishing loot mechanic? See how well PvP players enjoy loot vanishing in a few seconds.
Highly questionable IMO. When exploring, you earn your "loot" by taking the time to scan down and discover sites, and now, I guess, by playing a hacking game. Are they trying to push solo players back to mining? You shouldn't need a "buddy" to be present to click on little colored moving dots on the screen for an otherwise great solo activity in EVE. The game mechanic should be to determine what your reward is after this hacking game and then let the reward sit on the screen as long as any other item normally would while, just like everywhere else in EVE, under threat of being ganked.
When you look at the game design as it currently stands, I have to agree that solo exploration in sector space is "mostly" fine (I am sorry, I have a personal hang up with multi-boxing. lol) Worm Holes have group exploration and the subsequent exploitation of sites already covered. |
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Raptors Mole
The Pheasant Pluckers
106
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Posted - 2013.04.27 11:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
If CCP will acutally put loot into mag sites. Thats a win right there. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
467
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 11:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
exploration was dead before, something you did when you where very bored.
Now, it appears to be totally dead.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4740
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 11:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
If CCP has made it so that you need a second person to scoop all the loot, then this probably means (if it's done properly) that it's designed to be decently profitable for two people (since they'd have to share it). Which means that while you won't get all the loot on your own, what you will be able to pick up should still be pretty profitable. In addition the twitch game really makes it so that you do need two people to grab everything. I kind of doubt there are many people who will be able to dual box and still do a decent job of grabbing stuff. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2013.04.27 11:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:If CCP has made it so that you need a second person to scoop all the loot, then this probably means (if it's done properly) that it's designed to be decently profitable for two people (since they'd have to share it). Which means that while you won't get all the loot on your own, what you will be able to pick up should still be pretty profitable. In addition the twitch game really makes it so that you do need two people to grab everything. I kind of doubt there are many people who will be able to dual box and still do a decent job of grabbing stuff.
^ This essentially. Like I said, the execution is clunky, but from an overarching design perspective it's actually kind of elegant. It supports a pretty wide spread of different playstyles, from solo to small group, without being exploitable by multiboxing, and encourages socialization in a formerly antisocial activity. All without stepping on the foot of those kooky antisocial explorers(like me). Clunky or not, it's good from a design perspective. I'm actually really excited for Odyssey now. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
468
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 11:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
It's a bit funny that they call it Oddesey.
There's a lot of good stuff in it, while exploration is killed off ;)
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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Lisbett
The Flying Dead Mutual and Absolute Destruction
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 11:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
I was hoping Odyssey would bring some new and good features to exploring. Kind of dissapointed. I can understand the thought behind hacking, it feels like an extension of the current scanning mechanics. It is not bad. Adding a little more death to exploring, it might work.
But the exploding wrecks?! Clicking as many small objects as you can in a limited time? It does not feel like Eve. If I want to click like a ****** I would play Leage of Leagends or some other crap.
Keep the hacking, skip the exploding.
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Yaboo Sux
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.04.27 11:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP what the crap happened to Harden The **** UP.... you give us pandas in space.. your not expanding Eve, your making it a cash cow playing to the lowest common denominator.
Your new explore is an insult to those that have invested time in getting maxed skills for exploration, to those that have run them since they were an art, before its great dumbing down for the masses a couple of years ago.
The mini game shows that you like angry birds, its a tablet game not really eve on a pc, the exploding jettisoned loot is fail, it kills solo running that many people do, or is it a ruse to get more lame alt accounts?, all the people who took time to max out the exploration related skills and learnt how to probe quickly with 5 probes have been shafted and shat on to please those who are too lazy to think and plan.
Honestly you have never really got into exploration have you, you have made it so easy that any fool and his dog on an alt will be required to get loot, you decimate the market in decryptors, which was a decent isk sink when you actually think about it, and all because shiny shiny trumps complexity and depth.
yeah this is a rant at a poorly thought out piece of work, made by people that have no talent, skill or dedication to exploration, you just put a moped engine in a sports car and gave it a go faster stripe paint job and said isn-¦t this the dogs bollocks.
CCP HTFU not DTFD (Dumb The **** Down)
edit: just noticed i posted on alt, sorry about that was meant to be main, just so pissed at CCP i didn-¦t look |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 12:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
As a long time explorer, I like most of the new scanning and "hacking" of profession sites. The twitch action at the end however really has no place here. If you want to make exploration a group effort, then boost the hacking aspect of it. Make it so multiple people hacking makes it easier and/or quicker.
Space pinata part is just down right dumb.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
274
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 12:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
The hell peopple i really dont get players nowadays, they just cannot keepp from complaining, its better than the previous mechanic ? yes
Is funnier ? yes
It detracts from spreadsheets in space? yes
so what the hell? is true it might be twitch based but i think thats even more interesting, adding some real life skill to apply to something in game is something i feel is way worth tossing out some spreadsheets out.
sometimes it feels like you guys wont be happy unless everything added is some sort of grey dark thing that should compell you to commit suicide, personally i love the idea and if you even havent tried it yet, you are complaining for nothing.
since you guys like stuff with so much time and patience where twitching is not involved, why not make the mini game open an Excel Spreadsheet and make you guys decrypt some code using math formulas with unlimited time, to me it sounds like that is what you all people want... |
Nifter Telfo
Pen Cap Technologies
2
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Posted - 2013.04.27 12:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hacking mini-game, one step forward. Clicking tiny red/green dots in the speed of a fraction of a second, two steps back.
If the goal was to reward group play in exploration, while removing benefits from simulated group play via multi-boxing, this was the wrong way to go about it.
Instead of being rewarded for bringing a buddy, you are punished for not bringing a buddy. I now associate exploration with negative feelings. Instead of rewarding me with loot from devising a smart route through a hacking mini-game, I am frustrated as I miss out of loot by miss-clicking.
How exactly are me and my buddy going to grab all the loot when he's colour blind (8% of all men are colour blind)? Poor motor functions and low hand-eye co-ordination? Guess they're going to take a hit in income and fun huh?
What's wrong with having multi-boxing benefit from this activity? As that is the only real reason I see for the inane twitch grab mechanic. How about simply having multiple players hook into the hacking which will add additional loot nodes? No more feeling like you're being punished, but rather rewarded for bringing a buddy. Each player would get at minimum the same amount of loot had they been solo, but their chances at something better is 10% higher or something similar. Now solo players no longer feel shafted, while grouping players get a bonus. |
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Nifter Telfo
Pen Cap Technologies
2
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Posted - 2013.04.27 12:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:It detracts from spreadsheets in space? yes
The whole reason I play EVE Online is because it is spreadsheets in space. If I wanted a twitch game I'd play the millions of FPS games.
Ager Agemo wrote: since you guys like stuff with so much time and patience where twitching is not involved, why not make the mini game open an Excel Spreadsheet and make you guys decrypt some code using math formulas with unlimited time, to me it sounds like that is what you all people want...
I would honestly and seriously welcome this mechanic. That would actually be using my "real life" skill as you describe it. Something that I took years to study and perfect, instead of my ability to make out a tiny dot in a sea of tiny dots.
People will just use a click script in this case. It'll make out the colours for you and it'll click in the right location without fail. Best of all, it's too similar to human behaviour to get you banned. |
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
218
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 12:59:00 -
[42] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote:If CCP will acutally put loot into mag sites. Thats a win right there. You've obviously never explored in Sansha space. I made billions running Sansha Mags in null, solo, in about a month, playing only a couple hours a week. Dangerous, but profitable.
This new mechanic, however, means I'll have to return to shooting at red crosses to make any isk solo. ::yawn:: |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
274
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
bleh personally i will love to practice up to the point i can loot all by myself, my trackball and me are ready :D |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Yaboo Sux wrote:CCP what the crap happened to Harden The **** UP.... you give us pandas in space.. your not expanding Eve, your making it a cash cow playing to the lowest common denominator.
Your new explore is an insult to those that have invested time in getting maxed skills for exploration, to those that have run them since they were an art, before its great dumbing down for the masses a couple of years ago.
The mini game shows that you like angry birds, its a tablet game not really eve on a pc, the exploding jettisoned loot is fail, it kills solo running that many people do, or is it a ruse to get more lame alt accounts?, all the people who took time to max out the exploration related skills and learnt how to probe quickly with 5 probes have been shafted and shat on to please those who are too lazy to think and plan.
Honestly you have never really got into exploration have you, you have made it so easy that any fool and his dog on an alt will be required to get loot, you decimate the market in decryptors, which was a decent isk sink when you actually think about it, and all because shiny shiny trumps complexity and depth.
yeah this is a rant at a poorly thought out piece of work, made by people that have no talent, skill or dedication to exploration, you just put a moped engine in a sports car and gave it a go faster stripe paint job and said isn-¦t this the dogs bollocks.
CCP HTFU not DTFD (Dumb The **** Down)
edit: just noticed i posted on alt, sorry about that was meant to be main, just so pissed at CCP i didn-¦t look
I am terrified to ask how you respond when you face a small setback in life outside of the context of video games.
But I have to ask. I just . . . Have to know. So tell me, if someone, say, cuts in front of you in line . . . Is this the type of response you typically exhibit? |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
1080
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:However, the new system of hacking a hull by way of a mini-game that results in an explosion of goodies you and a pal have to run catch or lose looks to be a SILLY addition to play.
Agreed, that's the exact thoughts going through my head as well as I watched the presentation. This is especially bad idea if the UI is clunky. And let's face it, EVE UI is and always has been incredibly clunky. If at any point the player starts to feel that he's fighting the UI more than he's fighting the enemy/flying cans, it will have a severe negative effect on the player's perception of the game. In other words, this "feature" has serious potential to do more harm than good.
Also, thinking long-term, how does this "feature" improve the gameplay? After you do it 47897 times, will it be fun? Entertaining? Challenging? Etc.? What is its purpose, besides making things annoying for multi-boxers? And considering multi-boxers are probably the guys single-handedly keeping EVE afloat, is it smart to tick them off?
And the "hacking game" they showed? Weak. I'm sorry, but it's just weak. If you're going to do something like that, make it fun and challenging. See Bioshock hacking system, and that's just one example of dozens. |
Xavier Quo
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 13:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
Obviously need more info but initially seems really disappointing as a full time solo explorer.
I am also hearing about new midslot modules to improve scanning? now if there are going to be like 10x more sites with some extremely hard to scan down then it's maybe ok, but it just seems odd to say "loads of people like to do solo exploration" and then make a mechanic that is geared against that, and then also further gimp an exploration ship that further widens the gap between the hunter and hunted. With an analyser and codebreaker you had very little chance of survival, now it just seems ridiculous to need another 3 mid module slots as well.
I didn't really see that much wrong with the mechanics of the old system, the loot is there and does not change based on skills, just takes more time to access cans, more risk of being scanned down etc. You still have to watch overview for spawns and dscan for players, getting Astrometrics, Archaeology, Salvaging, Codebreaking to V means you can do them quicker and be exposed for much less time, particularly in Null and WH space. Now...?
|
Yaboo Sux
Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: I am terrified to ask how you respond when you face a small setback in life outside of the context of video games.
But I have to ask. I just . . . Have to know. So tell me, if someone, say, cuts in front of you in line . . . Is this the type of response you typically exhibit?
what!...
i-¦ve been through loads of changes that have impacted me negatively and positively over the years, i-¦ve HTFU and got on with it, but this continued dumbing down goes against what EvE is at its core, what attracted long term players who invest time and effort into making other people dreams in game become real.
It is a regression to game play, its just CCP dumbing down a part of the game and making it something i-¦d play on a tablet not as part of eve. Other changes in ore and T2 production also impact me, but they are not DTFD the game, they are required balances to make it better.
If some one cuts in line i tell em to **** Off to the back of the line, what do you do quiver behind them in fear with no dignity?.
HTFU is EvE, making a mini tablet game that is DTFD to the lowest common denominator is WOW Pandas, all shiny and no depth
|
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
274
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
how exactly is it dumbing it down a mechanic were you used to ONLY click F1? and now having to unlock with a mini game and then having fast reflexes? |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:how exactly is it dumbing it down a mechanic were you used to ONLY click F1? and now having to unlock with a mini game and then having fast reflexes?
Okay, maybe "dumbing down" is not entirely correct. How about we settle for "Stupid." |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative.
518
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I hope that this stuff is for wormholes too. No, small groups make most of their profits in C4/C5 by having 4 guys running and a fith ina noctis, with this change, they will have to have MINIMUM 3 guys in site ships with the other two in noctis', lowering the speed they can do sites, and still making them get less money per site because they wont be able to catch them all. not to mention the fact that noctis' are usually an alt, couldnt do that anymore since your going to need a devoted player who can sit there and watch the screen to click the frakkin dots. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4744
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:And the "hacking game" they showed? Weak. I'm sorry, but it's just weak. If you're going to do something like that, make it fun and challenging. See Bioshock hacking system, and that's just one example of dozens. Did the part where Soundwave said "this is a work in progress" completely fly over your head? |
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
1305
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
So let me get this right.
Pros:
- More interactive hacking that looks to be a fun minigame and requires thinking (reminds me of Deus Ex)
- No rats to deal with = no requirements for combat ships, friends or changing your ship and going back to a site
- More modules to help scanning
- If you play with others, you get rewarded more
- Improved UI for the scanning interface
Cons:
- If you optionally solo it, you won't get all the loot
- If you have trouble moving a mouse and clicking at the right place on screen, you won't get all the loot.
Having trouble with mouse clicking is a legitimate problem, but I'd wager for the vast majority of pilots, this is a huge improvement. |
Drew Solaert
Wildcard Inc.
264
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:28:00 -
[53] - Quote
The can collecting I think is a great idea, a way to balance rewards between solo and group play without making it a flithy isk fountain. I lied :o
|
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
Logan LaMort wrote:So let me get this right. Ok..
Logan LaMort wrote:Pros:
- More interactive hacking that looks to be a fun minigame and requires thinking (reminds me of Deus Ex)
The "fun" bit here is entirely subjective. My opinion that it's terrible is just as valid, so let's discount this one.
Logan LaMort wrote:Pros:
- No rats to deal with = no requirements for combat ships, friends or changing your ship and going back to a site
I suppose this could arguable be called "dumbing down". Is that a pro? Again, subjective call.
Logan LaMort wrote:Pros:
- Improved UI for the scanning interface
The improved UI is not necessarily part of the deal here. It's perfectly viable to have an improved UI yet leave exploration mechanics like hacking as they are. So let's discount this one also. |
Ari Laveran
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. God forbid I have to click a thing in my PC MMO. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:45:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO.
I suppose it all depends on the despawn rate of the 'debris'. If you want to argue suspension of disbelief, let's not imagine that these items could be stored in hard vacuum or could be collected at leisure as they will not vanish within mere seconds. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO.
Because adding twitch based game play, in a inherently non twitch based game is bad?
I also wonder how this would work if the system is under TIDI, slow-mo pinata?
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
201
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:56:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gnoshia wrote:Well it's better than the old system that much is certain.
Clicking a module and waiting to loot the can was about as mind-less and boring as you can possibly imagine. Granted this new version isn't much better, but it's enormously better than the old system.
You practically have to have both Hacking V and Archaeology V, to get the Tech II modules, plus rigs, to avoid spending most of your time just twiddling your thumbs waiting for the module to succeed on the current system.
Anything is an improvement. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Gnoshia wrote:Well it's better than the old system that much is certain.
Clicking a module and waiting to loot the can was about as mind-less and boring as you can possibly imagine. Granted this new version isn't much better, but it's enormously better than the old system. You practically have to have both Hacking V and Archaeology V, to get the Tech II modules, plus rigs, to avoid spending most of your time just twiddling your thumbs waiting for the module to succeed on the current system. Anything is an improvement.
Because why would you need to train for anything rite!? Let's just abolish the whole skill system while we're at it. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
201
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:05:00 -
[60] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Gnoshia wrote:Well it's better than the old system that much is certain.
Clicking a module and waiting to loot the can was about as mind-less and boring as you can possibly imagine. Granted this new version isn't much better, but it's enormously better than the old system. You practically have to have both Hacking V and Archaeology V, to get the Tech II modules, plus rigs, to avoid spending most of your time just twiddling your thumbs waiting for the module to succeed on the current system. Anything is an improvement. Because why would you need to train for anything rite!? Let's just abolish the whole skill system while we're at it.
Well truthfully, you still spend most of your time twiddling your thumbs now, just having the skills to V makes it only barely below wrist slitting levels of boredom. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4745
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Gnoshia wrote:Well it's better than the old system that much is certain.
Clicking a module and waiting to loot the can was about as mind-less and boring as you can possibly imagine. Granted this new version isn't much better, but it's enormously better than the old system. You practically have to have both Hacking V and Archaeology V, to get the Tech II modules, plus rigs, to avoid spending most of your time just twiddling your thumbs waiting for the module to succeed on the current system. Anything is an improvement. Because why would you need to train for anything rite!? Let's just abolish the whole skill system while we're at it. Yes! That's it.. let's be consistent and do this for mining too.. I've got a GREAT idea.. Mining lazorz are now super powerful and they blow up the roid in one shot!! Now all you have to do, is click as fast as you can to pick up all the chunks!!! Brilliant. You don't even know how the system works yet. Why are you making all these dire predictions? Do I have to keep repeating that Soundwave said that this was a work in progress? |
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
1308
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO. Because adding twitch based game play, in a inherently non twitch based game is bad? I also wonder how this would work if the system is under TIDI, slow-mo pinata?
I would argue that ship to ship combat in EVE can be very twitch based depending on the scenario, especially if you're flying frigates.
At the end of the day though, EVE is a game that encompasses many different play styles and appeals to many different types of gamers. Personally I view the old hacking mechanic as the same as gathering X item in Y MMORPG, clicking an icon, wait for a loading bar, receive loot and repeat. The new hacking system may not be perfect, but at least the loot pinata at the end is interactive.
I wouldn't mind seeing suggestions on how it could be improved, because the loot being blown into space and disappearing after a few seconds (self destruct on being compromised?) is a simple and elegant solution to encourage group play. You can still explore solo, but some of us would like to do this with a friend.
EDIT: It just looks fun to be honest. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
Logan LaMort wrote:
I would argue that ship to ship combat in EVE can be very twitch based depending on the scenario, especially if you're flying frigates.
At the end of the day though, EVE is a game that encompasses many different play styles and appeals to many different types of gamers. Personally I view the old hacking mechanic as the same as gathering X item in Y MMORPG, clicking an icon, wait for a loading bar, receive loot and repeat. The new hacking system may not be perfect, but at least the loot pinata at the end is interactive.
I wouldn't mind seeing suggestions on how it could be improved, because the loot being blown into space and disappearing after a few seconds (self destruct on being compromised?) is a simple and elegant solution to encourage group play. You can still explore solo, but some of us would like to do this with a friend.
EDIT: It just looks fun to be honest.
The old hacking system was boring and needed changed, I don't disagree with that. However adding in a twitch based space pinata doesn't seem to fit, nor do I see it being anything more then an annoyance.
I posted an idea a few pages back, to expand the "new hacking" system to incorporate group play, without the pinata.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
Yaboo Sux wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: I am terrified to ask how you respond when you face a small setback in life outside of the context of video games.
But I have to ask. I just . . . Have to know. So tell me, if someone, say, cuts in front of you in line . . . Is this the type of response you typically exhibit?
what!... i-¦ve been through loads of changes that have impacted me negatively and positively over the years, i-¦ve HTFU and got on with it, but this continued dumbing down goes against what EvE is at its core, what attracted long term players who invest time and effort into making other people dreams in game become real. It is a regression to game play, its just CCP dumbing down a part of the game and making it something i-¦d play on a tablet not as part of eve. Other changes in ore and T2 production also impact me, but they are not DTFD the game, they are required balances to make it better. If some one cuts in line i tell em to **** Off to the back of the line, what do you do quiver behind them in fear with no dignity?. HTFU is EvE, making a mini tablet game that is DTFD to the lowest common denominator is WOW Pandas, all shiny and no depth
1. It's not dumbing down
2. It's not a "regression to game play"
3. Your dignity is not at issue in a video game mini-game, although you clearly do lack all sense of proportion and perspective, which must make you miserable a lot. For that, you honestly do have my sympathy.
4. You're afraid you won't be able to click icons on the screen for five seconds? HTFU or GTFO.
5. Or go check out WOWPandas, I suppose. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: 4. You're afraid you won't be able to click icons on the screen for five seconds? HTFU or GTFO.
5. Or go check out WOWPandas, I suppose.
Have you ever kept your view in the same place, then moved it and watch the brackets jump? This is what I can see happening with this.
Also clicking on little green dots as quickly as possible while trying to avoid clicking on the little red dots, is inline with "WOWPandas" style of play. Or almost every ****** game on Ipad. Though I guess trying to use lolWOW as an example to try and flame someone, is what all the cool kids do.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4745
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 15:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
It's not a "if you click the red dot something bad will happen", the red dot is simply an indicator that you can't grab it because it's either out of reach or you're currently pulling in something else.
You really shouldn't even need the color indicators. It should be fairly easy once you get used to the system to judge which ones are close enough to grab and which ones are flying too far away. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1163
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 16:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
50% of players play solo, quoted at fan-fest.
Exploration is surely the real solo player experience.
"Bring a friend" quote from chap demonstrating the new exploration, to 'catch' all the cans.
Seems odd to me.
Should be fun though.
This is not a signature. |
Karig'Ano Keikira
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 16:22:00 -
[68] - Quote
reserving judgement on this one until I see how it actually works in practice however, I agree that explorers are often solo people, so 'forcing' group work in it might not be best idea |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4745
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 16:23:00 -
[69] - Quote
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:reserving judgement on this one until I see how it actually works in practice however, I agree that explorers are often solo people, so 'forcing' group work in it might not be best idea I really don't think this is forcing group play at all.
All it is is making it so that you can't get maximum payout alone. If you could, group play wouldn't be viable at all. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1163
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 17:12:00 -
[70] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:reserving judgement on this one until I see how it actually works in practice however, I agree that explorers are often solo people, so 'forcing' group work in it might not be best idea I really don't think this is forcing group play at all. All it is is making it so that you can't get maximum payout alone. If you could, group play wouldn't be viable at all.
A solo player in -0.5 surely deserves to keep whatever he may find.
A group of players could just agree to share the spoils? This is not a signature. |
|
Vexidious
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 17:43:00 -
[71] - Quote
IMO, the loot jettison thing is completely out of place in Eve. I just don't see how it makes any sense. It just seems so.... silly, both from a thematic and mechanical perspective. This would be a generic and boring mechanic in a single-player twitch game, but in Eve I think that it is unforgivably stupid. I will be truly sad if this is the best mechanic that CCP could come up with to encourage group play in exploration. It's like they aren't even trying.
As for the hacking mini-game - I will reserve judgement. I don't think there are enough details to make a fair judgement at this time. However, I will say that, from what I have seen, it doesn't look very interesting, and severely lacks visual appeal. I mean, why go to all the effort of making exploration sites look cool and then make players stare a black box with a few circles and lines on it?
Very poor effort on CCP's part, IMO. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 18:22:00 -
[72] - Quote
Logan LaMort wrote:Also lots of opportunities to ninja other people's loot That part I like and very much should be a part of EvE.
"Punishing" the player for doing it solo and making it feel "wasteful" to run the site without friends online is a BAD mechanic.
Scanning down a valuable site and defending it from others, while waiting for enough friends to complete it, is not inherently bad. Neither is waiting for others to do it more time-efficiently or in a safer manner than possible solo. But dragging an otherwise useless stray along to click green boxes at the end, so he can get a share of otherwise disappearing "wasted" loot...
You can accomplish the bit by simply ejecting tractor beam immune loot cans in various directions and have them keep going for 100+km at relatively high speeds. This would force the explorer to chase after one set, only being able to secure the cans on the opposite side if there is 0 competition or he has a friend. But even that makes it too artificial and forced (why is it shooting out of an ancient wreck to start with?) and more a "sit cloaked and steal" than shoot the competition in the act kind of confrontation.
If they want to replace a module cycle time with a mini game, I can sort of live with that. But make different pieces of the wreck targetable for it and become a lootable container on success. Then a friend can help while doing his part, or others can come steal ones you didn't get to yet. Whom you (and your friend) can then show the error of their ways.
Maybe require a different module for different parts and make it not fitable to the same ship at the same time, making you bring a friend or refit risking half the site. Or make the loot a large m3 refinable commodity that requires a hauler, while the "unclocking" module can not fit on a hauler (take the whole computer, then "reprocess" for the usable components). Or at least be extremely tedious to use without a bonused hull with the right rigs. |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 18:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
I hear they are doing the same thing with the petition system.
You file a petition and then randomly sometime later in space (regardless of what you are doing) a large, obstructive screen pops up and in the middle is a picture of the GM who will be "helping" you, and then all of the Copy and Paste" and "We apologize for the late reply and appreciate your patience." and "The Logs show nothing" appear and fly to the edges of the screen.
And then you still don't get any help - so it's basically the same old petition system. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 19:35:00 -
[74] - Quote
For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Sante Ixnay
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 19:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
I finally watched the demonstration, and while I was fully prepared to dislike the new mechanics based on the previews here, it doesn't seem so bad. The mini-game looks like a decent prototype, the looting method doesn't in itself bother me, and there's certainly been major improvements in the UI and graphics.
I guess my concerns come down to:
1. In losec, am I going to be a lot more vulnerable while getting cans open?
Yeah, the current hacking system is dull as a matte doorknob on its own, but that allows me to focus on the real fun: the balance between looting loots and not getting ganked...too often.
2. Will solo exploration be about as lucrative for me as it is now (or better)?
I have nothing against teamwork being promoted in Exploration, but I think it should do this by scaling up better with more players, and some general adjustments to rewards, without reducing the returns for soloers. We have no way of knowing which way the new jettison system will swing this. (Though I think I'll feel sorry for you if you're color-blind, or have worse hand-eye coordination than I do.)
Anyway, if the answers to those two questions are "Basically no" and "Basically yes", in that order, I basically think I'll be a basically happy Explorer. |
J'Ribs
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sante (Above) nailed it.
If I'm doing the hacking game or I'm grabbing the loot, like I'm in a 1980's Game show tornado chamber with the dollar bills flying around...
I'm not spamming D-Scan like a bastard to spot the probes.
Good thing is: With no NPC's, I can explore in Null in a Frigate and do radars. You could do Mags in a Frig in Null.... especially the Gurista Temples.
And losing the occasional Frig was no big deal.
|
Jantunen the Infernal
O C C U P Y
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 20:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
The new changes do look worrying, especially how there won't be any rats in the sites anymore, possibly meaning that you can just fly around doing sites while sitting safely in an uncatchable frigate. Unless they also dramatically change other parts of the sites such as loot and spawn frequency it could be a serious hit to how profitable exploration is. |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
Another concern about these "exploding loot" hacking sites is that with this new arcade style, click on moving color changing dots to get as much loot as you can before they poof, it doesn't help to have a "power of two" or "buddy" account unless you are a coordinated multitasking god that can click with two mice on two screens to grab loot with your (encouraged by CCP) second accounts.
I'm wondering if it will be possible to buy CCP endorsed foot mice so you can have a mouse in both hands and two foot mice in order to take advantage of the extra accounts CCP encourages you to buy to click as many dots as possible after the hacking explosion. I think we may soon be seeing some sort of Red Bull type drink being promoted by CCP that shows Pilots juiced up on the stuff being able to click more dots.
I really don't like this new vanishing loot concept. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Luckily, I am not one of those people, whom we all meet, that expects everyone to agree with them or thinks that you are somehow less for not. Hopefully, I am allowed the same courtesy. I have been thinking over a few of the posts written here.
There is no need to add more group dynamics to exploration in sector space when by nature of the job those that want group exploration will graduate to worm hole space where it is a requirement for the exploitation of resources. This new twitch mechanic threatens to KILL a classic profession from science fiction story telling that happens to be intrinsic to the play value of many EVE subscribers: The lone explorer. This should not be allowed to happen. The catch and grab mechanic is messy and leave those explorers feeling like they are always missing out on the honest rewards of their work while enforcing a needless limitation to group we violate every where else in play.
The only real way to involve more people in more jobs in EVE is to directly kill multi-boxing itself rather than attempting to eliminate the jobs it is often used for as you hurt and dissuade too many other players and their fun too. Since it is doubtful they can afford to do that directly it is something to be accepted. Attempting to design around it with twitch fails as boxer and other tools can be easily modified to deal with it. IGÇÖll admit that I am a fan of the idea of one character and account per player IP and permadeath possibilities but I doubt anyone else could handle it.
Allowing the introduction of a twitch play mechanic such as catch and grab vanishing loot into a simulation is a counterproductive change in design philosophy that if accepted by the general player base opens the door to the introduction of yet more twitch game play killing the internal consistency of established mechanical design from years past progressively over time. ItGÇÖs a tendency we call feature creep. Silliness such as exploding asteroids with catchable bits may actually not be out of the realm of possibility in years to come as unreasonable as it sounds now if this is quietly accepted.
Twitch play by its nature does not mean less boring and more fun over time. It doesnGÇÖt even imply more accessible to most players as EVE has never (and will never) be appreciable to those grounded in the GÇ£NintendoGÇ¥ school of play philosophy. After dealing with catch and grab for the hundredth time the newness will wear off and that you will miss the old crack a can and run mode of play for sheer expediency. If you think the current method dull or bland thatGÇÖs fine but changes for changes sake to something not game appropriate never pan out well. Instead of pandering to the twitch generation why not simply hold true to simulation design and create a mechanic vested in decision making?
Scanning and probing have been described as a mini-game that plays out like a logical extension of piloting your ship inside the simulation (it feels REAL) so that most people donGÇÖt notice the fact. These exploration site changes play out as a cobbled in twitch mechanic that runs contrary to established play methodology so strongly that it sticks out like a bruised thumb. They have no place in EVE. |
Aria Ning
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:34:00 -
[80] - Quote
Garresh wrote:For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about.
I don't see what the fuss is either. |
|
Aria Ning
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:43:00 -
[81] - Quote
Arin Archer wrote:Another concern about these "exploding loot" hacking sites is that with this new arcade style, click on moving color changing dots to get as much loot as you can before they poof, it doesn't help to have a "power of two" or "buddy" account unless you are a coordinated multitasking god that can click with two mice on two screens to grab loot with your (encouraged by CCP) second accounts.
I'm wondering if it will be possible to buy CCP endorsed foot mice so you can have a mouse in both hands and two foot mice in order to take advantage of the extra accounts CCP encourages you to buy to click as many dots as possible after the hacking explosion. I think we may soon be seeing some sort of Red Bull type drink being promoted by CCP that shows Pilots juiced up on the stuff being able to click more dots.
I really don't like this new vanishing loot concept.
I think you're over exaggerating. What if originally 5 items were to jettison out and you were able to collect all 5 before the 5th one expired into space? So you essentially received 5/5 and I would assume you be happy. But in reality CCP jettisons 10 items but you still can only get 5 before they all expire into space, however, now that you know there were a total of 10 you were unhappy because you couldn't get the other 5 items but you still managed to get 5 out of 10. So you still got the same amount in both situations. But in the 2nd situation since you know that there were 10 items you feel you should be entitled to get the other 5 you missed out. Where as, I honestly just see it as "hey there are more items available, you could bring a friend if you want to get the rest but it's not necessarily needed." |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Silliness such as exploding asteroids with catchable bits may actually not be out of the realm of possibility in years to come as unreasonable as it sounds now if this is quietly accepted. Multiplayer mining:
Asteroids now need to be blown up first, spawning mineable mini-rocks to yield the resources. The resulting rocks despawn too quickly to get them all if you dock up to reship. The EHP of the roid requires a battlecruiser shooting it for as long as a Hulk takes to mine up the resulting rock bits.
Better yet, why don't we make Strip miners suck some crazy cap, so as to require energy transfers from external sources to get all the rocks before they vanish.
Coincidentally, all mining fleets are now made up of equal parts PvP-ready combat ships and Mining Barges with logi support.
But getting a bunch of people who are not mining to tag along and shoot rocks, just to do efficient mining, is not a positive change to mining. Neither is dragging a clickfest looter along with you for exploration.
If you think waiting for a module cycle is boring, how do you feel about sitting idle in the site, waiting for your buddy to come over however many jumps? |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:17:00 -
[83] - Quote
Aria Ning wrote:I think you're over exaggerating. What if originally 5 items were to jettison out and you were able to collect all 5 before the 5th one expired into space? So you essentially received 5/5 and I would assume you be happy. But in reality CCP jettisons 10 items but you still can only get 5 before they all expire into space, however, now that you know there were a total of 10 you were unhappy because you couldn't get the other 5 items but you still managed to get 5 out of 10. So you still got the same amount in both situations. But in the 2nd situation since you know that there were 10 items you feel you should be entitled to get the other 5 you missed out. Where as, I honestly just see it as "hey there are more items available, you could bring a friend if you want to get the rest but it's not necessarily needed." The player just used his skill to succeed at a solo activity.
He then watches 50% of the resulting loot disappear, giving the impression of a failure. It's not about entitlement to the other half. It makes you feel bad for doing the site when no friends were around. Making a player feel bad for succeeding = bad game design.
For that matter, it IS a failure. He should bookmark the site and wait for a friend to become available to come with him. |
Aria Ning
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Tank Talbot wrote:Silliness such as exploding asteroids with catchable bits may actually not be out of the realm of possibility in years to come as unreasonable as it sounds now if this is quietly accepted. Multiplayer mining: Asteroids now need to be blown up first, spawning mineable mini-rocks to yield the resources. The resulting rocks despawn too quickly to get them all if you dock up to reship. The EHP of the roid requires a battlecruiser shooting it for as long as a Hulk takes to mine up the resulting rock bits. Better yet, why don't we make Strip miners suck some crazy cap, so as to require energy transfers from external sources to get all the rocks before they vanish. Coincidentally, all mining fleets are now made up of equal parts PvP-ready combat ships and Mining Barges with logi support. But getting a bunch of people who are not mining to tag along and shoot rocks, just to do efficient mining, is not a positive change to mining. Neither is dragging a clickfest looter along with you for exploration. If you think waiting for a module cycle is boring, how do you feel about sitting idle in the site, waiting for your buddy to come over however many jumps?
Wow, seriously? You're that upset over the changes, geez. But sure we can go with that idea but I have a feeling you'll be very very very VERY upset when you see the price you'll need to pay for your ship(s). |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
533
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Garresh wrote:Anyone got a video for this? As someone who explores I am interested. ah, its on CCP's twitch TV channel, but basically its a minigame similar to Deus Ex hacking. and once your done a ball explodes sending goodies everywhere on your screen you have to click when theya re green, after grabbing oen they turn red, then a few seconds later turn green again, its basically designed so that you CANT get all the loot by yourself, and if your monitor isnt very good, or your a little laggy, or you have poor eyesight, youll no longer be able to reap the rewards of exploration sites. Will tractors work?
Time to dust off the exploration Noctis.
Overall, the idea sounds really dumb. But that is my opinion. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1165
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:29:00 -
[86] - Quote
My daughter tells me that this, 'mash the button to do stuff' is known as a Quick Time Event - or 'mash and bash' in adventure games such as the new Tomb Raider.
Is this the direction Eve should be going in? This is not a signature. |
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
152
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:36:00 -
[87] - Quote
Man, I'm really looking forward to my solo exploration roams on my 14" laptop on ****** hotel wifi now, NOT!
I'll be lucky if I can get anything from this pinata system
Seriously folks, exploration is the one piece of PvE that is optimised for solo play. Mostly anyone else tagging along gets bored out of their minds waiting for you to finish scanning. Now the plan is that every now and then you'll hit a site that requiires you to have a friend with you (preferably one with a nice big screen, a good connection and very good reflexes) if you want to 'complete' the site.
Am I missing something? |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
Aria Ning wrote: Wow, seriously? You're that upset over the changes, geez. But sure we can go with that idea but I have a feeling you'll be very very very VERY upset when you see the price you'll need to pay for your ship(s).
Upset? That implies I'm in emotional distress over it. More like I think it's a bad idea from a design standpoint and I'm disappointed.
Your ship price point is irrelevant. Yield would obviously be adjusted to effectively still inject the same m3 of ore into the game. It would merely "encourage group activity".
I'm not suggesting that's a good mining change, in case you missed that point . Just extrapolating a parallel. It looks good on the surface, but it's not a good idea - especially to the solo miner. Even if he still makes the same isk per hour solo mining as he did before, while watching half the rocks he puts effort into blowing up randomly disappear from space.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4753
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:43:00 -
[89] - Quote
Garresh wrote:For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about. Pretty much everyone who's posted in this thread should read this post. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:48:00 -
[90] - Quote
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Am I missing something? I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit.
But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers. |
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2661
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
I remember what scanning was like before scanning was scanning.
So STFU you whippersnappers.
|
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
534
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:56:00 -
[92] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Garresh wrote:For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about. Pretty much everyone who's posted in this thread should read this post. Yeah I read it. I am going from a guaranteed income source to "how much money can I grab before they turn the air off in the box."
Just a bad idea. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 22:57:00 -
[93] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Some good points and some bad points
I somewhat agree, but you have to consider things from the other perspective as well. ATM to be profitable in lowsec and time-effective requires at LEAST a Cloaky recon. It also requires a decent amount of tank and firepower to clear through the rats and not get pushed out of sites. I used a pilgrim for a while, but I've upgraded to a Loki in the last few months, having finally decided it was worth the risk.
Highsec exploration is kind of worthless due to the sheer number of people doing it, and is also incredibly easy(with the exception of plexes). Lowsec exploration requires a massive investment of resources, in the range of several hundred million and months of training to really become a viable income source. There's a HUGE barrier of entry for those newer explorers to make the jump from high to low. And on top of that, MOST of the barrier here has nothing to do with exploration, or scanning, or even gankers. It's the difficulty in fitting a competent ship that has the damage and tank to deal with the rats in radar and mag sites.
Now understand I'm not saying lowsec exploration is hard. It's actually pretty goddamn easy. But I ran a solo w-space operation for a year and a half before I 'retired' to lowsec. Most of the lowsec explorers are older players. Maybe not vets, but you look at us and you see a pretty old group. We've earned our place as explorers, but how much of that was our own skill, and how much of it is simply waiting for our character skills to climb up?
This new system lowers the barrier of entry for lowsec to be sure, but it ALSO moves the focus of exploration sites away from combat. If I wanted to shoot things I'd be missioning, not exploring. And on top of all this, the removal of rats makes dives to null for us lowsec dwellers not only viable, but potentially very lucrative. In the current system null dives require fitting up a T3 with interdiction nullifiers, warp stabs, covert reconfiguration, and the "usual" subsystems. But the null radar sites put out mission level dps in many cases, which requires a full refit to a mission running setup. It simply doesn't feel like exploration anymore.
As you go "deeper" into null and w-space, exploration sites, ratting, and missions all blur together. You need a heavily capable combat ship either way. In w-space it makes sense, and the nature of sleepers actually makes it rather fun. But null has no excuse. It's boring, and I quickly stopped my null dives to explore in lowsec instead. This new change means that as a solo player I can start looking back to null dives for exploration. It means greater risks and greater rewards.
It also means that when I want to teach my friends to explore, I can do so without seeing my profits fall through the floor. This is the beginning of a new era for explorers, solo or otherwise. You can cower in fear, or you can start looking to the future. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
665
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
You people complain far too much without knowing what kind of loot is going to drop from the little cans escaping.
Before in a high sec radar you could be lucky to get one decryptor out of 4 cans .. usually empty or with those crap parts. (sometimes you could get 5 decryptors but that's rare). Maybe with 10 cans, crates, testtubes, w/e escaping from the decompressed hacked wreck you could get many more decryptors than you get now even if you only manage to grab 3 or 4 ... who knows.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
234
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:08:00 -
[95] - Quote
Actually watch the relevant video before commenting people. It is not 'twitch based gameplay'. When you actually watch it rather than raging over a rumour you see how it works. A bunch of green objects appear. You click one, on the demo, CCP took several seconds to actually click one. The rest turn red, while your ship pulls the clicked one in with a tractor beam (Appears to be a free beam, not a module) When your ship has finished pulling one in, they turn green again.
If they go out of range, they turn white to say out of range, you can still chase them by moving at this point. CCP video'ed for about 30 seconds, and the loot hadn't 'exploded' though most had gone out of range of the stationary ship.
So this is not 'twitch' game play, it's still fairly slow paced, though a little faster than before, and yes, if you are actually physically impared in some way, exploration may not be the right game for you. Of course, for all we know you can click on the objects via the overview, so you don't have to hunt the cross in space. But if you are capable of targetting a ship in space rather than via the overview, you are capable of doing this. |
Nex apparatu5
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
496
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:41:00 -
[96] - Quote
It amazes me that you can get a thread that goes 5 pages complaining about a change that is sorely needed. The Test jabber exploded with "holy ****", "I need to try this", "training astrometrics" etc when this was demo'd. |
Selene Nask
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:49:00 -
[97] - Quote
ooooo |
Selene Nask
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 23:50:00 -
[98] - Quote
gah I lost my post somewhere |
Sorcha Lothain
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 01:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
I just recently started playing Eve and was instantly drawn to the idea of exploration. The current scanning system seems archaic compared to the beautiful visuals throughout the rest of the game. From what I can tell an update was certainly overdue. Though I'm really skeptical of what I've started to term "Loot Barf".
I recently finished playing a couple of games that used the "Loot Barf" mechanic and find it frustrating though I believe I understand the thought behind its presence. I know for a fact that I'm going to be hard pressed to convince some of the people I play with to tag along with me while I explore. Strangely enough removing the NPCs will make it harder to convince them to come along since they will have less things to "make go boom".
It seems too early to make judgement calls on how it will be handled in this game. |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 01:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Am I missing something? I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit. But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers.
This is what I'm thinking too. The problem I see is it means one (or more) of the group is going to be sitting around in space doing nothing while someone finishes a scan. I mean if I'm scanning system A, and someone else is doing system B, and I find an exploration site of three signature in A that will need both of us to run, if system B has seven signatures I've got to just sit there and float while the other fellow finishes scanning the seven sites in B. As it is now if I run the sites solo, I'm always doing something, I'm alway active. Even when I'm doing the actual hacking, I'm making sure I don't get caught.
But the new system which is pushing group play seems like it's also bringing in a lot of just sitting around being inactive waiting for someone else to do something if you do go in groups.
Also, I've quit playing games before because the mini game was so annoying (sid meier's pirates comes to mind). So for the love of internet spaceships please don't make an annoying mini game! |
|
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:28:00 -
[101] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Aria Ning wrote:I think you're over exaggerating. What if originally 5 items were to jettison out and you were able to collect all 5 before the 5th one expired into space? So you essentially received 5/5 and I would assume you be happy. But in reality CCP jettisons 10 items but you still can only get 5 before they all expire into space, however, now that you know there were a total of 10 you were unhappy because you couldn't get the other 5 items but you still managed to get 5 out of 10. So you still got the same amount in both situations. But in the 2nd situation since you know that there were 10 items you feel you should be entitled to get the other 5 you missed out. Where as, I honestly just see it as "hey there are more items available, you could bring a friend if you want to get the rest but it's not necessarily needed." The player just used his skill to succeed at a solo activity. He then watches 50% of the resulting loot disappear, giving the impression of a failure. It's not about entitlement to the other half. It makes you feel bad for doing the site when no friends were around. Making a player feel bad for succeeding = bad game design. For that matter, it IS a failure. He should bookmark the site and wait for a friend to become available to come with him.
You're misreading this pretty badly. It becomes painfully obvious for anyone who isn't new that you're not supposed to get all the loot. Stop thinking of it as failure and think of it as degree of success. A player succeeds, but a better player succeeds better. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
275
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 04:33:00 -
[102] - Quote
I guess people just wont be happy unless they can manage to get 100% of whatever mechanic is applied doing whatever. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1168
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 05:50:00 -
[103] - Quote
I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea. This is not a signature. |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 06:13:00 -
[104] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea. I think the opposite, a solo player should be able to get 100% of whatever they are interacting with, however it should take longer than a group would.
If the Loot Barf was persistent in the same way that normal cargo cans were(upto 2 hours before they pop) then no one would have an issue, even if they were moving at a fairly fast pace, because a solo player could then go chase down every can and get the loot, but a group would be able to collect them before they got too far and have to chase them less. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1666
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 06:15:00 -
[105] - Quote
Manssell wrote:Georgina Parmala wrote:Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Am I missing something? I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit. But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers. This is what I'm thinking too. The problem I see is it means one (or more) of the group is going to be sitting around in space doing nothing while someone finishes a scan. I mean if I'm scanning system A, and someone else is doing system B, and I find an exploration site of three signature in A that will need both of us to run, if system B has seven signatures I've got to just sit there and float while the other fellow finishes scanning the seven sites in B. As it is now if I run the sites solo, I'm always doing something, I'm alway active. Even when I'm doing the actual hacking, I'm making sure I don't get caught. But the new system which is pushing group play seems like it's also bringing in a lot of just sitting around being inactive waiting for someone else to do something if you do go in groups. Also, I've quit playing games before because the mini game was so annoying (sid meier's pirates comes to mind). So for the love of internet spaceships please don't make an annoying mini game!
Erm? What exactly is preventing you fromg going next door to help your buddy scan? |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 06:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Manssell wrote:Georgina Parmala wrote:Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Am I missing something? I think the idea they are going for is you scan system A, I scan system B. Then we team up and do the sites in both systems together to maximize profit. But from what I see, that generally does not mesh too well with the current play style of explorers. This is what I'm thinking too. The problem I see is it means one (or more) of the group is going to be sitting around in space doing nothing while someone finishes a scan. I mean if I'm scanning system A, and someone else is doing system B, and I find an exploration site of three signature in A that will need both of us to run, if system B has seven signatures I've got to just sit there and float while the other fellow finishes scanning the seven sites in B. As it is now if I run the sites solo, I'm always doing something, I'm alway active. Even when I'm doing the actual hacking, I'm making sure I don't get caught. But the new system which is pushing group play seems like it's also bringing in a lot of just sitting around being inactive waiting for someone else to do something if you do go in groups. Also, I've quit playing games before because the mini game was so annoying (sid meier's pirates comes to mind). So for the love of internet spaceships please don't make an annoying mini game! Erm? What exactly is preventing you fromg going next door to help your buddy scan?
Nothing, other than the time it takes to make the jump, warp to safes, and get probes back out. I'm not saying that it can't or shouldn't be done, but in most cases I bet it will just end up with someone sitting around waitng. Just a hunch really. Yea, not scientific I know. |
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:00:00 -
[107] - Quote
The jury's out on the "pinata" system until current explorers can actually compare how much they're getting on average in loot. That's hard to do of course due to how random the sites are already. It might be a nice mechanic that serves to actually reward an individual as much as a group if, say, the amount that is gathered by an individual matches current rewards but with two players the value is increased and then with three it's maxed.
Yes, someone tagging along just to help with the loot grab will get bored during scanning. Probably the best solution is to both be in exploration frigs scanning adjacent systems and when one finds a site both warp to it. Problem with that is that these frigs can only fit one tractor beam if they have salvagers. Be nice if devs just made analyzer good for all relic sites and dropped salvager.
As for the mini game, well I don't know it data and relic minigames will be different but a hacking minigame fits with the idea of penetrating a computer's defenses and all that. Hopefully the relic one will at least use different terms like having to translate the ancient language to blahblah etc.
And I REALLY hope that there will be lots of tasty tidbits of lore in these ancient ships and hacked records etc. Please CCP let us find hidden lore treasures! (And gradiate their rarity because eventually they'll all be on record and folks will know which ones are rare, so it'll be worth ISK or better yet bragging rights to show everyone you've got that Ancient Captain's Log or Archaic Musical Intrument that only pops up one in a million sites or whatever.) This is the kind of stuff explorers crave! Lord knows why CCP hasn't added stuff like this into exploration long ago but I hope they will very soon! |
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
Garresh wrote:For Bobs Sake people...the new jettison mechanic doesn't kill solo play. Look can we think in terms of opportunity cost for a second? 1 player gets 6 cans per site. Let's say that comes out to 20 mil a site. 2 players get 12 cans per site. That's 40 mil in stuff...split both ways. Or 20 million isk per person. Now step back and think for a second. Exploration has never been an "optimal" isk source. For that you go to mission running. Or, if multi boxing, mining. Exploration requires going to null or lowsec for money. All this change does is allow you to bring friends IF YOU WANT. Exploration was the only profession that didn't become faster/more profitable with friends, like missions or mining. And you know what? People still do those things solo. I don't see what the fuss is about.
This.
|
Sante Ixnay
University of Caille Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
We don't know enough yet to say how this will turn out, but I'm hoping Vanishing Loot Pixels will be a lot less irritating to me than Empty Loot Cans are now.
Of course, it'll be pretty hilarious if the loot pixels can be empty too.
J'Ribs wrote:Good thing is: With no NPC's, I can explore in Null in a Frigate and do radars. You could do Mags in a Frig in Null.... especially the Gurista Temples.
And losing the occasional Frig was no big deal.
That's a really good point. That aspect may end up shaking things up a lot more than the things most of us are focusing on in this thread.
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Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1168
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:40:00 -
[110] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I do not think a player should get 100% of any loot they may find whilst exploring solo, any more than they should get 100% credit for a solo kill in pvp, or 100% of the profit from any mission they run solo, or 100% of any ore they mine solo...well you get the idea. I think the opposite, a solo player should be able to get 100% of whatever they are interacting with, however it should take longer than a group would. If the Loot Barf was persistent in the same way that normal cargo cans were(upto 2 hours before they pop) then no one would have an issue, even if they were moving at a fairly fast pace, because a solo player could then go chase down every can and get the loot, but a group would be able to collect them before they got too far and have to chase them less.
Please forgive me, my sarcasm did not come across well in print.
I agree with your idea though, exploration 'cans' should be persistent for the same length of time as mission cans. This is not a signature. |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3498
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 07:47:00 -
[111] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Understand where I am coming from. I think the designers at CCP are intelligent people who do good work for the game and have worthy goals. ItGÇÖs true, I have personally lamented the fact that design documents always included real at the expense of fun when considering new features to add into EVE when I thought both factors should be included. For example, the new multi-launch probe system with preset formations is both fun enhancing and feels real. It is a great addition to the game in my view.
However, the new system of hacking a hull by way of a mini-game that results in an explosion of goodies you and a pal have to run catch or lose looks to be a SILLY addition to play. ItGÇÖs a feature more worthy of an action game that doesnGÇÖt take itself seriously instead of a a space sim like EVE. I think they should keep the goodies in a can to collect even if said can looks like a space ship to loot now. There are better ways to make exploration less of a solo activity but I am not sure they can kill multi-boxing on PC to get around this anyway as boxer can account for it.
I understand the need to make the game more accessible to new players. I understand making the game look nicer to improve its appeal with gate, docking, and new probe interface animations. ItGÇÖs why I can accept the change in terminology for site names. But none of it should be done at the expense of actual, in-depth, play. Put it all together with the catch and grab mechanic and its like some one is looking to GÇ£dumb downGÇ¥ the game into an action game for PS4, tablets, mobiles, and novelty gadgets like Oculus.
There are enough shallow, pretty looking, little action games on the market right now and EVEGÇÖs intelligence, depth and breadth, is the only thing that keeps people here and playing as long as they do. I know the game has to grow and adapt but not at the cost of its core values with features like that.
Every aspect of the new exploration in Odyssey is a vast improvement on a terrible, absolutely terrible game mechanics we have now. And you have the audacity to claim this new system is going to 'dumb down' the current game play? Are you ******* high?!
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Dalmont Delantee
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 08:55:00 -
[112] - Quote
How about this guys:
Try the thing on Sisi then COMPLAIN, at the moment everything is conjecture. HTFU and GAFL (GAFL is a new one I made up: Get a F Life) |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1312
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 09:48:00 -
[113] - Quote
Dalmont Delantee wrote:How about this guys:
Try the thing on Sisi then COMPLAIN, at the moment everything is conjecture. HTFU and GAFL (GAFL is a new one I made up: Get a F Life)
Yes lets wait until it is so far in development that scrapping it or major design changes probably wouldn't happen if it was that bad. What people are doing are placing their concerns with the concept of the new system, BEFORE they put a **** ton of work into it.
It seems almost most who have concernsl(based on this thread) that the hacking part people are fine with, but the exploding loot not so much. This is what is called feedback.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Blue Binary
Polychoron
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 09:55:00 -
[114] - Quote
In relation to the trained hacking skill as it currently is, I have been under the impression that the skill dictates that if you have the skill to open it, then what percentage chance loot would be claimable by the player upon opening the container.
I'm going to speculate here with a leap of logic and say that with this new hacking mechanic the loot may drop with 100% chance with random types. The player(s) could then cherry pick the loot from the limited time they have to take what they want. The player can then use real world skill to select loot rather than a computed percentage chance, although the type appearing would could still be random.
I assume the hacking skill could function as the amount of "lives" available to you when you encounter the firewalls as shown in the video, though it was stated that the new hacking system is work in progress...
In relation to twitch aspect of the mechanics, it was stated that they are removing NPC's from the sites, therefore there needs to be a challenge to these sites otherwise it would be a canter. It might also present a challenge to the bots in the static sites.
For those looking for the video the Eve Keynote video @ 1:11:55 shows the new exploration mechanics.
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Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 10:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.
The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic.
WHAT THE HELL - Exploration is a solo profession as advertised on the home page personality test of EVE website. Thousands of players enjoy the solo side of exploration. Post Odyssey we now have a mini game to play and solo players will be penalized.
What is it about CCP and a lot of Eve players that they cant stand the concept of the 'individual'
Based on the info available ,the new system is a clearly dumbing down, unrealistic and another SOLO nerf from the socialist workers collective of iceland. |
Pisov viet
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 10:39:00 -
[116] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.
The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic. WHAT THE HELL - Exploration is a solo profession as advertised on the home page personality test of EVE website. Thousands of players enjoy the solo side of exploration. Post Odyssey we now have a mini game to play and solo players will be penalized. What is it about CCP and a lot of Eve players that they cant stand the concept of the 'individual' Based on the info available ,the new system is a clearly dumbing down, unrealistic and another SOLO nerf from the socialist workers collective of iceland. How would solo players be penalized? If I catch 5 items when I run a site solo, having a friend next to me catching 5 items himself wont mean I get more. If anything, it may mean I get less if we try going after the same things or there is less than 10 items expelled. |
Nico elScorpio
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 10:58:00 -
[117] - Quote
What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards |
Pisov viet
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 11:11:00 -
[118] - Quote
Nico elScorpio wrote:What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards Unlike, you know, locking a can, activating a module on it and waiting half an hour to unlock it? |
Nico elScorpio
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 11:22:00 -
[119] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Nico elScorpio wrote:What i've seen on twitch about all this looks way too trivial and mobile devicish for eve standards Unlike, you know, locking a can, activating a module on it and waiting half an hour to unlock it?
Well, when one turns zero into crap i'd rather stick to zero, because its way easier to evolve quality out of zero than out of crap. |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 11:37:00 -
[120] - Quote
For Hacking, the higher your skill level probably equals increased "virus" hit points that give you a better chance to successfully complete the hack.
What will it be for Archeology?
Will we see specializations for Hacking and Archeology?
Hacking Skill Specializations (each rank 10) V
Hacking Bullet Time
-for each level you gain a higher "bullet time" slow down of exploding loot, giving you a better chance at clicking the little dots before they poof. (Think Matrix).
Hacking Butterfly Net (rank 10)
-each level increases the radius of your mouse icon, allowing you to possibly click two dots at once
Hacking Clear Vision (rank 10)
-each level increases the size of the dots you must click on with better loot appearing as smiley faces
Hacking Skill just to make you spend another 30 days training (rank 10)
-each level increases the time before the exploding loot vanishes by .01 seconds, level V gives you a full .5 seconds to get that last dot!
....oh I can't wait. I'm really not a fan of quick vanishing loot. That's not what EVE is all about and certainly not what solo players had hoped for with the new exploration expansion. The whole "bring a buddy" thing is kind of ridiculous as well as you would need to prepare them for the explosion....1 minute warning, please refrain from restroom breaks my virus game is almost over...it's coming...it's coming...get ready...set....START CLICKING! |
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Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 12:54:00 -
[121] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Luckily, I am not one of those people, whom we all meet, that expects everyone to agree with them or thinks that you are somehow less for not. Hopefully, I am allowed the same courtesy. I have been thinking over a few of the posts written here.
There is no need to add more group dynamics to exploration in sector space when by nature of the job those that want group exploration will graduate to worm hole space where it is a requirement for the exploitation of resources. This new twitch mechanic threatens to KILL a classic profession from science fiction story telling that happens to be intrinsic to the play value of many EVE subscribers: The lone explorer. This should not be allowed to happen. The catch and grab mechanic is messy and leave those explorers feeling like they are always missing out on the honest rewards of their work while enforcing a needless limitation to group we violate every where else in play.
The only real way to involve more people in more jobs in EVE is to directly kill multi-boxing itself rather than attempting to eliminate the jobs it is often used for as you hurt and dissuade too many other players and their fun too. Since it is doubtful they can afford to do that directly it is something to be accepted. Attempting to design around it with twitch fails as boxer and other tools can be easily modified to deal with it. IGÇÖll admit that I am a fan of the idea of one character and account per player IP and permadeath possibilities but I doubt anyone else could handle it.
Allowing the introduction of a twitch play mechanic such as catch and grab vanishing loot into a simulation is a counterproductive change in design philosophy that if accepted by the general player base opens the door to the introduction of yet more twitch game play killing the internal consistency of established mechanical design from years past progressively over time. ItGÇÖs a tendency we call feature creep. Silliness such as exploding asteroids with catchable bits may actually not be out of the realm of possibility in years to come as unreasonable as it sounds now if this is quietly accepted.
Twitch play by its nature does not mean less boring and more fun over time. It doesnGÇÖt even imply more accessible to most players as EVE has never (and will never) be appreciable to those grounded in the GÇ£NintendoGÇ¥ school of play philosophy. After dealing with catch and grab for the hundredth time the newness will wear off and that you will miss the old crack a can and run mode of play for sheer expediency. If you think the current method dull or bland thatGÇÖs fine but changes for changes sake to something not game appropriate never pan out well. Instead of pandering to the twitch generation why not simply hold true to simulation design and create a mechanic vested in decision making?
Scanning and probing have been described as a mini-game that plays out like a logical extension of piloting your ship inside the simulation (it feels REAL) so that most people donGÇÖt notice the fact. These exploration site changes play out as a cobbled in twitch mechanic that runs contrary to established play methodology so strongly that it sticks out like a bruised thumb. They have no place in EVE.
Well said - I wish I could form my thoughts as well.
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Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1269
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 14:21:00 -
[122] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Garresh wrote:Anyone got a video for this? As someone who explores I am interested. ah, its on CCP's twitch TV channel, but basically its a minigame similar to Deus Ex hacking. and once your done a ball explodes sending goodies everywhere on your screen you have to click when theya re green, after grabbing oen they turn red, then a few seconds later turn green again, its basically designed so that you CANT get all the loot by yourself, and if your monitor isnt very good, or your a little laggy, or you have poor eyesight, youll no longer be able to reap the rewards of exploration sites.
Someone please tell me this is a joke... This has got to be the STUPIDEST thing ever suggested for EveO. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Dring Dingle
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 15:06:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tbh... I half expected the pick a lock from skyrim |
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 16:15:00 -
[124] - Quote
Oh well, a computer virus. WITH HITPOINTS.
And a clickety-click Loot Pi+¦ata. As if things weren't already difficult enough with my mediocre net connection..
I wonder what the plans for archeology are. Instead of a computer virus we probably get a spade and pickaxe. WITH HITPOINTS. |
Haulie Berry
532
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 16:25:00 -
[125] - Quote
Thematically, I don't really love the hacking mini-game and loot-spew for Eve. It just feels a little gimmicky. I think I would prefer something where, e.g., loot is in space, and cannot be shown on the overview, so you have to actually "find" it (possibly within the bombed out ruins of a derelict station, whatever).
It's still WORLDS better than, "approach can, watch analyzer cycle one or more times, remove loot," though. |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
278
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:04:00 -
[126] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:I thought it was pretty obviously two things. Improving the profession sites to make them actual professions and encouraging to play with other people.
The new system is a clear improvement for the simple reason, that the gameplay before was as dumbed down as you could possibly make it. Activate a module on a can, wait, collect loot and find another can to activate a module on. You can't dumb down on the mechanic, since it was so simple to begin with. The new one at least offers some gameplay and as a bonus offers a clear reason to explore with other players, because you can't get all the loot by yourself and no amount of alts is going to help you. The active gameplay is a must or that goal wouldn't be reachable. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it can't possibly be worse or more dumbed down then the current mechanic. WHAT THE HELL - Exploration is a solo profession as advertised on the home page personality test of EVE website. Thousands of players enjoy the solo side of exploration. Post Odyssey we now have a mini game to play and solo players will be penalized. What is it about CCP and a lot of Eve players that they cant stand the concept of the 'individual' Based on the info available ,the new system is a clearly dumbing down, unrealistic and another SOLO nerf from the socialist workers collective of iceland.
the part where this is a MMO game? |
Ritsum
Ubiquitous Hurt
172
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:12:00 -
[127] - Quote
Did not read most since it looked to be a whiny "I have to do more work to make my isk" type of post BUT while exploration is my main income I feel this will impact me greatly....
I mean like I can do it with my friends instead of solo now... Since you know you will need more people to catch the loot it will make it fun! and just think of the small gang pvp fights we will get over the sites... say each gang has like 3-4 people, will make fighting over low/null sites more fun!
Well at least it will be more fun with more people.... I just hope they increase the loot/isk made from it since we now need friends to get all the rewards... Meaning splitting the loot... Play EvE how you want to play it and do not let others dictate how you play. Evolve your playstyle to protect yourself from others! Even in "PVE", "PVP" is there, lurking in the shadows. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:20:00 -
[128] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually watch the relevant video before commenting people. It is not 'twitch based gameplay'. When you actually watch it rather than raging over a rumour you see how it works. A bunch of green objects appear. You click one, on the demo, CCP took several seconds to actually click one. The rest turn red, while your ship pulls the clicked one in with a tractor beam (Appears to be a free beam, not a module) When your ship has finished pulling one in, they turn green again.
If they go out of range, they turn white to say out of range, you can still chase them by moving at this point. CCP video'ed for about 30 seconds, and the loot hadn't 'exploded' though most had gone out of range of the stationary ship.
II see you watched the presentation. Now turn on the sound and watch it again.
Quote:You can only pick up one at a time, so it's pretty important that you bring a friend for this. I have three containers so far, that's fairly good. I'd like to get maybe 6 or 7. (NOTE: I counted 18 cans total, so it's more like bring two friends?) So the white ones are going out of reach, which of course there are none, because I'm a skilled pilot, so I just flew closer. But they're gonna start disappearing off the thing, so you won't be able to pick them up on your own. So you can bring a friend, have a newbie or whoever come in there, these will only stay in space for a few seconds essentially.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So this is not 'twitch' game play, it's still fairly slow paced, though a little faster than before, and yes, if you are actually physically impared in some way, exploration may not be the right game for you. Of course, for all we know you can click on the objects via the overview, so you don't have to hunt the cross in space. But if you are capable of targetting a ship in space rather than via the overview, you are capable of doing this. You're not going to be sitting there stationary like he was at the start of the demo. You'll be flying a fast agile ship and manually piloting it according to the barf pattern to maximize the number of cans grabbed. The closer you are, the shorter the tractor beam time, the more cans you get. Also the more "spaz clicking" you get to do, probably similar to manually orbiting in an interceptor? Now just imagine what happens when the loot shoots out and your client freezes for 4 seconds, all the cans are white and out of range by the time you regain control.
Garresh wrote: You're misreading this pretty badly. It becomes painfully obvious for anyone who isn't new that you're not supposed to get all the loot. Stop thinking of it as failure and think of it as degree of success. A player succeeds, but a better player succeeds better.
Actually, I would say you are the one misreading it. You're not supposed to get all the loot by yourself. A better player may succeed marginally better, but the whole design of it is for "more players to succeed better". It makes you feel like you did something wrong by letting the loot rot, when you could have gotten another person there.
So you go out exploring and find a site. A corp member is online 12 jumps away. Are you going to wait around 'till he gets to you, or take what you can grab? How will your corp feel about this? What if all your exploration loot has to be sold to your corp as a condition of using the space? What if you have to justify to a director every time a can is missed in a site, "wasting loot"? Are some solo explorers going to be forced to choose between grouping for the activity, or leaving/finding a new corp?
Just some potential implications to think about.
Pisov viet wrote: How would solo players be penalized? If I catch 5 items when I run a site solo, having a friend next to me catching 5 items himself wont mean I get more.
You don't, but your Corp does.
I would rather see the hacking part of the site take a long time, but become exponentially faster to perform as you add more hackers. Put 6 "hacking points" on the wreck, each with its own loot. Then decrease overall system strength when multiple parts are under attack at the same time, making it significantly faster than each going to his own site. Group activity should be about efficiency and safety.
Capital escalations are a similar functionality. More people = more loot. I wonder how frequently it happens that you don't have enough cap pilots online and just run through the sites anyway, with just one or two caps. Foregoing the other escalations and finishing the sites, just because more cap pilots won't be on for two more hours and you don't feel like waiting. It has a similar "waste / robbing corp mates" feeling. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:24:00 -
[129] - Quote
Ritsum wrote: I mean like I can do it with my friends instead of solo now... Since you know you will need more people to catch the loot it will make it fun! and just think of the small gang pvp fights we will get over the sites... say each gang has like 3-4 people, will make fighting over low/null sites more fun!
Yes, just like faction warfare.
With cloaking warp stabbed frigates farming the sites and running away when a hostile/probe comes up in local/DScan. |
Takseen
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
430
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:32:00 -
[130] - Quote
It feels like most of the people complaining about the "Twitch" gameplay haven't reviewed the gameplay video. Its not all that fast. |
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
65
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 18:32:00 -
[131] - Quote
When working on your typical consumer product there is a tendency to look for ways to enhance its consumer appeal by catering to the wants of a broad market segment. However, I think we all have to acknowledge that EVE is a niche product and not market typical. It should not be treated that way. When dealing with a niche product you build consumer appeal by means of strengthening traits that brought your core audience to play in the first place and kept them here.
A developer stated something very telling on stage: GÇ£not everything in EVE has to be about combat.GÇ¥ This is a worrying statement from some one working on a game where everything you do is about putting players in competition with each other and the environment around them from market manipulation, to mission running, to freight hauling, in order to create content. Even simple, peaceable, mining spawns NPC rats over time and attracts gankers seeking easy prey.
If they are simply adding the explosion of loot to be caught before it vanishes and the mini-game as a means of introducing challenge due to the removal of NPC mobs and conflict from radar and mag sites then one has to ask if they should have removed NPC mobs and conflict in the first place? It seems to me you could have done good things by building on the CURRENT mechanics.
Fine, you want to grant incentive to bring some one along exploring then add tougher mobs so one of you can scan and loot while the other people fight. You want to make hacking interesting well make it so the player has to observe the cycles to avoid failing too many times in a row and loosing the loot, spawning additional rats, or setting off an alarm other greedy players could home in on. You want to make the sites themselves more interesting then use those fantastic artist and designers to take advantage of all the other dead races and create new mob types as threatening as sleepers with the occasional historical drop that provides clues or reveals ancient secrets that could lead you to other systems even wormhole space or a Jovian system.
That would have been the start of a real Odyssey for exploration that fits into the game design and the business of Internet space ship pew pew. Instead we have a vanishing loot barf and mobile phone mini game aimed at casual users seeking a simplified game and afraid of conflict as a test bed to see if we will accept more such changes in the future to draw such players in droves... |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 18:44:00 -
[132] - Quote
What part of opportunity cost do these people not understand? If you're waiting for your corp mate 12 jumps out to fly to you, you're both losing money because of wasted time. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1272
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 20:43:00 -
[133] - Quote
Garresh wrote:What part of opportunity cost do these people not understand? If you're waiting for your corp mate 12 jumps out to fly to you, you're both losing money because of wasted time.
I love reading people talk about "opportunity costs" as related to making isk WHILE SITTING ON THEIR ARSE PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME!!! "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Sorcha Lothain
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 20:48:00 -
[134] - Quote
Dring Dingle wrote:Tbh... I half expected the pick a lock from skyrim
Nice.
They would have to add blueprints, so people could make them and sell them at a million ISK each. I guess they could also add horse armor that you would have to buy with real money.......oh wait.
|
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 20:55:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Garresh wrote:What part of opportunity cost do these people not understand? If you're waiting for your corp mate 12 jumps out to fly to you, you're both losing money because of wasted time. I love reading people talk about "opportunity costs" as related to making isk WHILE SITTING ON THEIR ARSE PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME!!!
Lol I'm just saying people are acting like they're gonna lose a whole ton of money flying solo. Its like saying mining solo is useless cause other people will steal your rocks. You can always fly to another system. Same with exploration. Sites don't despawn. They respawn elsewhere. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1668
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:04:00 -
[136] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:I love reading people talk about "opportunity costs" as related to making isk WHILE SITTING ON THEIR ARSE PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME!!!
Omg don't even say that. If I'd spent as much time going to graduate school as I did playing EVE, i'd have 2 Ph.Ds, 1 Ed.D and Masters in Pure Awesomeness.....
ie EVE made me poor, I'm going to sue Iceland for birthing the dudes who created CCP. |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:11:00 -
[137] - Quote
Here's what I don't get. CCP took away rats from Archeology sites so we can focus on exploration. This is good (you did a good thing here CCP!)...but at the same time they want you to drag along a buddy to grab exploding loot that poofs after 30 seconds. So picture this. You have a nice focused ship for exploration that, with new ship fittings required to scan sites, is less likely than ever to have proper weapons...this is good too. All this works great for soloing. Why...why ...why would someone want to tag along with you in another ship? They have ZERO to do while you go about your business of discovering and hacking the site. The only reason they're there is to wait for that magical 30 seconds when the loot explodes so they can click like mad. Who wants to do that? Let those people go discover their own sites as there really is no reason to force in a loot popping/poofing mechanic that does not need to be part of the game to attempt to force someone to waste time following your ship around while you have all of the fun exploring.
It really makes no sense for a second pilot to be there. CCP, please reconsider this forced arcade game mechanic that makes no sense when everything else, most importantly your solo player base, is taken into account. Maybe have some other loot in the game explode and see how they like it in low sec or null. A ship that just was destroyed by live fire would more likely "explode loot" than treating every ancient site as if was a bottle of champagne ready to pop. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1668
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:16:00 -
[138] - Quote
Arin Archer wrote:Here's what I don't get. CCP took away rats from Archeology sites so we can focus on exploration. This is good (you did a good thing here CCP!)...but at the same time they want you to drag along a buddy to grab exploding loot that poofs after 30 seconds. So picture this. You have a nice focused ship for exploration that, with new ship fittings required to scan sites, is less likely than ever to have proper weapons...this is good too. All this works great for soloing. Why...why ...why would someone want to tag along with you in another ship? They have ZERO to do while you go about your business of discovering and hacking the site. The only reason they're there is to wait for that magical 30 seconds when the loot explodes so they can click like mad. Who wants to do that? Let those people go discover their own sites as there really is no reason to force in a loot popping/poofing mechanic that does not need to be part of the game to attempt to force someone to waste time following your ship around while you have all of the fun exploring.
It really makes no sense for a second pilot to be there. CCP, please reconsider this forced arcade game mechanic that makes no sense when everything else, most importantly your solo player base, is taken into account. Maybe have some other loot in the game explode and see how they like it in low sec or null. A ship that just was destroyed by live fire would more likely "explode loot" than treating every ancient site as if was a bottle of champagne ready to pop.
Forgive me if this is harsh, but how is it people have enough save to use a computer, and not enough to cinsdier the idea that a relic or data site might have more than one thing to hack? If two "cans"(or whatever we end up calling them) are close enough, might not the exporation team hack more than 1 can at a time, giving both players something to do? |
Arin Archer
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 21:22:00 -
[139] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Forgive me if this is harsh, but how is it people have enough save to use a computer, and not enough to cinsdier the idea that a relic or data site might have more than one thing to hack? If two "cans"(or whatever we end up calling them) are close enough, might not the exporation team hack more than 1 can at a time, giving both players something to do?
Sure, just don't blow your loads at the same time or you'll lose out on your exploding loot! Meanwhile hacker #2 is trying to figure out their little hacker game when the first loot explodes. Comedy ensues as the second pilot frantically closes windows and rotates camera looking for the loot dots!
Sounds like a swell plan. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
422
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:20:00 -
[140] - Quote
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37350318.jpg |
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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:59:00 -
[141] - Quote
Most low and mid level mag sites are garbage. You can do better salvaging a mission so why would anyone bother playing a mini-game for it outside the high end sites found mostly in null?
Radar is about the same. A mini-game where most of the loot is garbage tool parts and tool BPCs worth next to nothing...but now you have to catch it with a pinata party fleet?
High sec sites should be funny at least with a blob of morons all gathered around loot cans waiting for someone to spill the poop so they can play houseflies. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:05:00 -
[142] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:As a long time explorer, I like most of the new scanning and "hacking" of profession sites. The twitch action at the end however really has no place here. If you want to make exploration a group effort, then boost the hacking aspect of it. Make it so multiple people hacking makes it easier and/or quicker.
Space pinata part is just down right dumb.
Edit: To expand on boosting the hacking aspect with out it being a space pinata.
Use the "grid" part but have different "levels" that the player can either choose, or based on how many are currently hacking. The higher the grid level the harder it is and would require more people or better skills/mods/implants. With higher level grids comes better/more loot.
RP wise its like hacking a computer, you can choose to go after the easy stuff which usually has less encryption/protection, but usually isn't that special. Going after the more important bits will have many more firewalls and have a harder encryption, but will yield more important information.
I was thinking exactly this as I was reading all along. There is something just off about this new mechanic, and I think everyone realises it. Let me explain.
Now I think the idea of removing the NPCs from exploration sites and adding the hacking mini game is an absolutely great idea, and I think it could add a lot to the game. Instead of fighting NPCs now, we are using our brains, along with various ship modules and hacking skills, to conquer the hacking mini games.
One thing I would suggest as mentioned in the previous post, perhaps certain hackable cannisters could drop various loot depending on how successfully they are hacked. So for instance if you have a group of players, you could make use of combined equipment and skills to go for the most advanced loot, but if you are solo then you could go for slightly easier loot but you don't have to share it.
The thing that is just completely off is the looting mini game at the end. I mean seriously CCP? Looting cans is pretty much the most boring activity in the game, I hate it and would kill to get looting drones along with the new salvage drones. But now you are making it into a mini game! At least I can just skip missions and rat loot and simply blitz it, but explorers will have no choice. I can just imagine getting lag or misclicking a can and then failing to get the contents. Just like how annoying it is right now when you overshoot a cargo container as your trying to loot it and then have to slowly burn back into 2500m and loot again.
Seriously CCP, this will be awful. Please work on advancing the hacking mini game as that sounds great, but scrap the loot pinnata at the end. |
El Geo
Pathfinders. The Marmite Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:15:00 -
[143] - Quote
Yeah, totally not fond of the having to grab cans at the end although I can see where it has its appeal (things that blow up should scatter cargo, hacking a container to me just doesn't say "everything shoots out in random directions into space") path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n. 1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvEPathfinders/videos?view=0 |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
145
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:34:00 -
[144] - Quote
Cause of your friend can't hack he's useless right? I can list off the top of my head a bunch of ways a friend can be useful without hacking.
1. Watch gates for hostiles in lowsec. 2. Bring ecm to bail you out if you get ganked. 3. Cooperative scanning. Before you laugh it IS a thing. There's many ways. You can divide a system by planets or quadrants and cover more ground faster. 4.Chasing off other explorers. 5.General purpose recon.
You guys need to try harder. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
102
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:45:00 -
[145] - Quote
Being a highly active solo low/null sec explorer I think if I'm taking maximum risk I should therefore receive maximum reward. It's bad enough scanning down sites with the right ship then having a dps/tank ship nearby and logistically realistic enough to do everyday and maintain acceptable profit margins in different 0.0 regions all on 1 character. I understand all that will be a thing in the past and that's great but please don't make me twitch for my reward while still taking hella risk to do so. Oderint Dum Metuant |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4782
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 00:19:00 -
[146] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Being a highly active solo low/null sec explorer I think if I'm taking maximum risk I should therefore receive maximum reward. It's bad enough scanning down sites with the right ship then having a dps/tank ship nearby and logistically realistic enough to do everyday and maintain acceptable profit margins in different 0.0 regions all on 1 character. I understand all that will be a thing in the past and that's great but please don't make me twitch for my reward while still taking hella risk to do so. You will receive maximum reward when you're alone. The system is simply set up so that working with someone else doesn't reduce your individual reward. |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 00:42:00 -
[147] - Quote
Aspiring low-sec explorer (and english poster) here.
Gameplay wise, I'd like to point out that the current state of exploration actually allows group play even if that's not a striking evidence. To give anything but one example, the probing research in one solar system benefit from cross-data provided by different people.
Now, to people that argue that this system is just flat better than the current so called "boring" one : exploration, as mining, is all about the process which lead you to that ultimate looting moment. What really matter is being effective with the probe pinpointing, choosing sites, fitting accordingly, watch-out for potential threats - whether they be rats (which are in the process of disappearing as far as I understand) or players- . Decision making, you name it...
Immersion wise, which at the end EVE is all about IMHO, this seems to pull me out of the game for various reasons well explained by OP. At the end exploration should be about expectancy and discovery. Why not expand on those fields instead of creating a rather fake interaction to awaken these feelings.
TLDR: Decision making does not fit well with fast paced kind of mini game. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13944
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 00:54:00 -
[148] - Quote
Fereval Kondur wrote:Now, to people that argue that this system is just flat better than the current so called "boring" one : exploration, as mining, is all about the process which lead you to that ultimate looting moment. What really matter is being effective with the probe pinpointing, choosing sites, fitting accordingly, watch-out for potential threats - whether they be rats (which are in the process of disappearing as far as I understand) or players- . Decision making, you name it... GǪand all of that remains in the new system. On top of that, they've added two more process layers that will matter: being able to open the containers, rather than just wait for a timer to run down, and chasing the loot and trying to pick the best pieces before they float away.
Lead-up that matters + looting that matters > only a lead-up that matters. So yeah, flat better pretty much sums it up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 01:19:00 -
[149] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Lead-up that matters + looting that matters > only a lead-up that matters. So yeah, flat better pretty much sums it up.
Alright good-point. I have to admit that you clarified my thoughts. (Even if I could point that more gameplay Gëá better gameplay.)
Last the fact that to me and others, such fast-paced clicking minigames are not an immersion factor far from it, nor coherent with what can be experienced in any other area of the game. That's highly subjective, but relevant I think. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 01:37:00 -
[150] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fereval Kondur wrote:Now, to people that argue that this system is just flat better than the current so called "boring" one : exploration, as mining, is all about the process which lead you to that ultimate looting moment. What really matter is being effective with the probe pinpointing, choosing sites, fitting accordingly, watch-out for potential threats - whether they be rats (which are in the process of disappearing as far as I understand) or players- . Decision making, you name it... GǪand all of that remains in the new system. On top of that, they've added two more process layers that will matter: being able to open the containers, rather than just wait for a timer to run down, and chasing the loot and trying to pick the best pieces before they float away. Lead-up that matters + looting that matters > only a lead-up that matters. So yeah, flat better pretty much sums it up.
No. I am sorry but I disagree. They have GÇ£cobbled inGÇ¥ two mini-games with twitch elements and magically vanishing loot that fail to play out as logical extensions of piloting a ship inside the simulation while detracting from a playerGÇÖs role as a manager of resources in favor of attempting to turn them into handicapped badminton athletes where you swat GÇ£birdiesGÇ¥ by any other name, hacking nodes or loot cannisters, before a time limit expires...
GÇ£ThisGÇ¥ does not a recipe for meaningful looting create and it is a detraction from meaningful build up by souring potential reward. Being more entertaining than the current system in your view still does not actually make it the right system for EVE as it runs contrary to too many established conventions within the game. They can do better and now is the time to mention it. |
|
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
539
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 01:52:00 -
[151] - Quote
So far I like what I see, its finally something a bit different, something other then "lock, click a module, wait, open, loot all" I will actually hold my final judgement on the feature until... you know I have actually tried it.
The only thing I don't like is that the cans vanish, I wish they just kept floating off forever, of course that would be a headache for the server |
Rachel Starchaser
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 02:57:00 -
[152] - Quote
Bump |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 04:55:00 -
[153] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fereval Kondur wrote:Now, to people that argue that this system is just flat better than the current so called "boring" one : exploration, as mining, is all about the process which lead you to that ultimate looting moment. What really matter is being effective with the probe pinpointing, choosing sites, fitting accordingly, watch-out for potential threats - whether they be rats (which are in the process of disappearing as far as I understand) or players- . Decision making, you name it... GǪand all of that remains in the new system. On top of that, they've added two more process layers that will matter: being able to open the containers, rather than just wait for a timer to run down, and chasing the loot and trying to pick the best pieces before they float away. Lead-up that matters + looting that matters > only a lead-up that matters. So yeah, flat better pretty much sums it up.
I agree with you. It's such a great new feature I think it should be used to loot everything including rats. No more wrecks or cans just floating garbage you have to chase around.
Loot that's available by salvaging wrecks + Playing 52 pick-up for it = poor use of development time....that pretty much sums up mag sites. |
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 06:18:00 -
[154] - Quote
Some more thoughts from me.
--The exploration site wrecks are locked and can only be unlocked and opened by playing that minigame. Can I lock up my own ship so when I get ganked the person trying to loot my stuff has to play the same hacking-and-lootsplosion minigame? And if not; why not?
--My ship now has a free tractor beam. How? Why? Can I use it to scoop stuff outside the exploration sites? And if not; why not?
--Will the lootsplosion grab-what-you-can-before-it's-gone mechanic be implemented in all lootable objects? And if not; why not?
All these 'this mechanic only works here and not in similar situations in the rest of the game' is what makes the whole affair feel so much like tacked-on patchwork to me. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 07:23:00 -
[155] - Quote
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote: --My ship now has a free tractor beam. How? Why? Can I use it to scoop stuff outside the exploration sites? And if not; why not?
You already have one. How do you think you can loot cans from over a kilometre away? Scoop drones from a short distance?
|
Xavier Quo
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 07:35:00 -
[156] - Quote
I'm liking this less and less the more I think about it tbh, before if you had poor skills you wouldn't be able to scan the site, bit more skills and it would take you a long time to access cans. But once you were in the sites you knew that it was a successful explore, provided you can kill the rats (not really an issue, I started with a magnate with 3 hob ii's, no probs in hi or lo). Now, once you get into the site you may fail the mini game or miss the few cans that contain the more valuable things. The fact that the cans disappear is really jarring, it would have been much better if you could chase them, making it a lot longer for solo players but without the sense of failure where there should be success. Mini games are out of place in eve. Even a puzzle in different locations in or out of system, like a mini-escalation with a bit of lore based note taking or collecting audio logs etc would have been great, but this is really wide of the mark imo, sorry. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4802
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 07:39:00 -
[157] - Quote
Xavier Quo wrote:I'm liking this less and less the more I think about it tbh, before if you had poor skills you wouldn't be able to scan the site, bit more skills and it would take you a long time to access cans. But once you were in the sites you knew that it was a successful explore, provided you can kill the rats (not really an issue, I started with a magnate with 3 hob ii's, no probs in hi or lo). Now, once you get into the site you may fail the mini game or miss the few cans that contain the more valuable things. The fact that the cans disappear is really jarring, it would have been much better if you could chase them, making it a lot longer for solo players but without the sense of failure where there should be success. Mini games are out of place in eve. Even a puzzles in different locations in or out of system, like amini-escalation with a bit of lore based note taking or collecting audio logs etc would have been great, but this is really wide of the mark imo, sorry. "Success isn't 100% guaranteed, therefore this new system is bad." No. |
Xavier Quo
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 07:46:00 -
[158] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Xavier Quo wrote:I'm liking this less and less the more I think about it tbh, before if you had poor skills you wouldn't be able to scan the site, bit more skills and it would take you a long time to access cans. But once you were in the sites you knew that it was a successful explore, provided you can kill the rats (not really an issue, I started with a magnate with 3 hob ii's, no probs in hi or lo). Now, once you get into the site you may fail the mini game or miss the few cans that contain the more valuable things. The fact that the cans disappear is really jarring, it would have been much better if you could chase them, making it a lot longer for solo players but without the sense of failure where there should be success. Mini games are out of place in eve. Even a puzzles in different locations in or out of system, like amini-escalation with a bit of lore based note taking or collecting audio logs etc would have been great, but this is really wide of the mark imo, sorry. "Success isn't 100% guaranteed, therefore this new system is bad." No.
you weren't guaranteed before? many a time I've set my dscan to 3AU and bailed when a friendly hurricane appears. It's just now there are an extra 2 things to fail, mini game and loot barf. I like the sense of excitement you get from finding out the name of the site, then getting it to 100%, knowing that something is good in there (as long as you don't get ganked). Now you can spend ages scanning, get the site coordinates, fail the minigame (I mean if the minigame is so easy everyone with a level 3 skill passes it what is the point of it?), or pass the minigame and then miss the loot. A lot of meh all round.
I think mainly as a full time explorer I was hoping for a LOT more depth and scope brought to exploration like I mentioned, as this is odysseys 'thing', as well as fixing things (The old system needed something doing to it, no-one is arguing against that). This really seems like a cop out in a lot of ways. Disappearing cans, magic no module tractor beam, hmmm. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
233
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 08:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
In the tradition of Hollywood revamping classic movies to a more modernized appeal...
As Indiana Jones (exploring avatar) cautiously makes his (or her) way through the ancient Aztec temple avoiding pitfalls and traps (scanning down) while the local natives are nowhere to be seen (no npcs), Indy reaches the heart of the temple (loot canister) and ponders the weight balance to swap out for the idol (activates the hacking module). Upon successfully swapping out the idol with the bag of dirt (hacking success), the idol now explodes into numerous pieces and scatter across the temple (CCP's new change). As Indy rapidly attempts to use his bull whip (tractor beam) to obtain as many pieces as possible (exploded loot canister), he ponders why he did not bring Belloq, Marion, and even Short Round (other players) to help maximize the pieces of the idol (phat lewt) as parts fall away into cracks and crevices of the temple and are now lost (vanishing into space).
And there you have it - CCP going Hollywood! |
|
CCP Bayesian
620
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 08:59:00 -
[160] - Quote
Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though:
Colourblind People We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.
Soloing We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!
Twitch Gameplay We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1355
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 09:12:00 -
[161] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: exists in EVE interacting with the UI now
This isn't a good selling point, since the interaction with the UI is and has always been pretty bad.
I do appreciate the time taken to clarify and will be waiting to see how this plays out.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
233
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 09:15:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: (snipped...)
The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. Heh - my mining friend will like that his Hulk will be able to pivot and shoot lasers from his strip miners and break down the rocks into smaller and smaller pieces before the pesky alien ship arrives. Then once the last rock is gone, the belt repopulates with even a greater number of cascading and floating asteroids. And instead of a running score, the destroyed rocks will automatically be refined into minerals and instantly sold on the market at the region's current going rate, transfering the ISK to the miner's wallet.
Good job revamping and modernizing the old arcade classic "Asteroids" CCP!
*hopes people's sarcasm meters are on. |
Yaboo Sux
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 09:26:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though: Quote:Why not when announced to avoid speculation, its not as if you just made it all up at the last moment Colourblind PeopleWe're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development. SoloingWe are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity! Quote:Cannot predict... yeah, so stop pulling out of the ether, but come on CCP Sundwave was all wow over DTFD of the game cos he-¦s too stupid to arrange 5 probes (which is al you really need when you got skills or push a button to get a result, is is an instant gratification addict? Twitch GameplayWe totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself. Quote:This is just a rip off of stuff from other older games like the X series and tablet based game play, get it on sisi asap and let us evaluate it and give some honest feed back
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CCP Bayesian
621
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 09:36:00 -
[164] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote: exists in EVE interacting with the UI now This isn't a good selling point, since the interaction with the UI is and has always been pretty bad. I do appreciate the time taken to clarify and will be waiting to see how this plays out.
Hah, I mean more from the clicks per second, requirement to move the mouse about wildly side of things rather than the interaction design itself. We're basically not looking to make people do more than they do right now in terms of click spamming or mouse use. The actual interaction is about as simple as it gets, if you're in range you left click on the scattered can and it will take the can. You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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CCP Bayesian
621
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Posted - 2013.04.29 09:44:00 -
[165] - Quote
Yaboo Sux, in hindsight we definitely should have had our devblogs ready to go. Letting people speculate isn't terrible and it's nice to be able to target specific concerns that people have on the forums in addressing a wider audience.
This will all be on Sisi as soon as humanly possible along with the rest of the Odyssey stuff as per normal and we're user testing the beejezus out of it internally. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Alek Row
Silent Step
31
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Posted - 2013.04.29 09:49:00 -
[166] - Quote
I'm not into hacking myself, but from other games experiences, this kind of mini games usually get boring VERY fast. For certain activities F1 still have a place despite the obvious lack of interaction.
This is one of your experiments right? Otherwise you had put this kind of mini games in mining (LOL). Let's just start with hacking first?
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J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
689
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:20:00 -
[167] - Quote
will radar and mag sites still need the codebreaker and analyser mods? because im not sure I saw them on Soundwave's fit ... This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Steijn
Quay Industries CAStabouts
259
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:31:00 -
[168] - Quote
The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.
a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.
b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.
c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.
IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.
So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt. |
Mis'tral
Tactical Corp of Exploration
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:37:00 -
[169] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The actual interaction is about as simple as it gets, if you're in range you left click on the scattered can and it will take the can. You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them.
So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items? |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3312
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 10:43:00 -
[170] - Quote
Steijn wrote:The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.
a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.
b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.
c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.
IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.
So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt.
All the above! Anyone exploring in non-hisec is going to have to balance the loot grab with monitoring local/D-Scan/scanner probe results. My "empty" real estate is a patch of screen above my ship, where I can double click to change heading. The system scanner fills one side, the overview the other, the survey scanner results are over here and then there are two dozen chat windows stacked on top of each other in various combinations.
If we could use CREST, IRC or XMPP for third-party chat applications, I could save a swathe of screen real-estate while moving chat to a second screen/second computer. Here is a comparison between IRC and XMPP linked from Hacker News.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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CCP Bayesian
625
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Posted - 2013.04.29 10:55:00 -
[171] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:will radar and mag sites still need the codebreaker and analyser mods? because im not sure I saw them on Soundwave's fit ...
Yes, we were running with devhacks to just simplfy the demo. There are some new dual use modules being introduced as well. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
75
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:00:00 -
[172] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I think everyone is looking forward to the blogs. I mean no disrespect in noting that I fear you have a hard sell coming.
CCP Bayesian wrote:Colourblind People We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.
Of interest, I hope resolution and screen size limitations for laptops in particular and older machines have been considered when attempting to identify and click upon the loot objects as well?
CCP Bayesian wrote:Soloing We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!
Perhaps not literally. However, per the keynote address it will be improbable for one peron to net all of the potential rewards due to an intentional choice in design. By the very nature of the mechanic a lone pilot's satisfaction in accomplishing the task at hand will be dminished as they will feel like they are missing out on something perhaps even better than they managed to ... "nab" from the vaccum.
CCP Bayesian wrote:Twitch Gameplay We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself.
The fact that it is such a radical departure from the mechanics in the rest of EVE is at the core of many postersGÇÖ expressed issues with the new system. As such does it have a place in game when exiting mechanics could be adjusted to accomplish similar ends? Rather than as a natural extension of play and piloting your ship it clashes with everything else in game entirely too much.
And I am sorry. I mean no offense. But the fact this evolved from a prototype mining mini-game actually frightens me.
Georgina Parmala wrote: Multiplayer mining:
Asteroids now need to be blown up first, spawning mineable mini-rocks to yield the resources. The resulting rocks despawn too quickly to get them all if you dock up to reship. The EHP of the roid requires a battlecruiser shooting it for as long as a Hulk takes to mine up the resulting rock bits.
Better yet, why don't we make Strip miners suck some crazy cap, so as to require energy transfers from external sources to get all the rocks before they vanish.
Coincidentally, all mining fleets are now made up of equal parts PvP-ready combat ships and Mining Barges with logi support.
But getting a bunch of people who are not mining to tag along and shoot rocks, just to do efficient mining, is not a positive change to mining. Neither is dragging a clickfest looter along with you for exploration.
If you think waiting for a module cycle is boring, how do you feel about sitting idle in the site, waiting for your buddy to come over however many jumps?
.... .... |
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CCP Bayesian
625
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:02:00 -
[173] - Quote
Mis'tral wrote:So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items?
It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.
We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:08:00 -
[174] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Soloing We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity! Perhaps not literally. However, per the keynote address it will be improbable for one peron to net all of the potential rewards due to an intentional choice in design. By the very nature of the mechanic a lone pilot's satisfaction in accomplishing the task at hand will be dminished as they will feel like they are missing out on something perhaps even better than they managed to ... "nab" from the vaccum. Which may be a good thing. Maybe the explorer thinks "hmm, maybe it's more fun if I bring someone along!" instead of "if I bring someone along, I will have only half the profit :S" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4804
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:09:00 -
[175] - Quote
Alek Row wrote:I'm not into hacking myself, but from other games experiences, this kind of mini games usually get boring VERY fast. For certain activities F1 still have a place despite the obvious lack of interaction.
This is one of your experiments right? Otherwise you had put this kind of mini games in mining (LOL). Let's just start with hacking first?
It can't possibly be as boring as what we have now. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3313
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:10:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.
Will the containers in question be visible on the overview?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:15:00 -
[177] - Quote
I like to think I am an enterprising capsuler so when I see this new system I think to myself "how do I make it better?" For example I scan down a wreck.
First, I recon the area to ensure no one is around. I then attached my wire rope net capable of holding up to 25 m3 (or more after all I am in space right?) to encompass the door to be hacked. Let's call this net the wicket keeper or catcher's glove.
Second, I want to be within 5000m to initiate the code break but I want to be cloaked so no one that stumbles upon me and lock on.
Third, and after the foolishness of figuring out how to open the door, the hatch opens and all the goodies fly out into the net. But wait! The force of the decompression has detached the net from the ship! No problem, it is still all bundled together. I'll just tractor it in.
BTW, why exactly is all the loot piled up in the hallway with the airlock?
How do we translate that into an EVE mechanic. There are new modules to come soooo, one of these new mods could be a net. A skill will have to be associated with it of course. Let's say without the mod you might obtain 15-20% of the loot because it is flying all over the place. With the mod and lvl1 skill you slow down the expansion and increase the time to capture the loot. Say 20-30% increase in loot recovery. Lvl 2 could be 30-40%, lvl3-40-50%, lvl4 50-60% lvl5 60-75% (I am just making this up ok!?!)
The point is, if we are playing catch the firefly then lets us train to increase the chances of obtaining most if not all the loot. I know a lot of EVE requires one to suspend disbelief but explosive decompression with all the loot right next to the airlock? And what if the vessel has already decompressed? Hmmm?
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blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:16:00 -
[178] - Quote
I really hope with all the upcoming exploration changes that we will also see some changes in respect to loot variance. I would have to say the most fruhstrating aspect of the current professional sites is that they can range from zero isk to one hundered million. While I do apprecaite some variance I really do hope the gap becomes less.
Also, can I pray that perhaps high sec mags might have some better value? |
La'Krul
Havoc Violence and Chaos The Retirement Club
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:20:00 -
[179] - Quote
Sorry to pre-judge but it looks like garbage. There really wasn't much wrong with exploration anyway, so they'll probably ruin it now instead of fixing null or something useful. As someone who has all probe skills at V and salvager, analyzer, codebreaker at V, I really won't be too happy if a whole load of new probing and module skills are released on the back of this junk.
A mini-game, I mean seriously, WTF! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3314
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
I am particularly unimpressed by the stated intention of making mining work the same way. This is gimmick gameplay, not good gameplay.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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CCP Bayesian
630
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:25:00 -
[181] - Quote
blink alt, we're definitely looking at the balance of the sites themselves and the spread of them through high->null sec. I'll let our content designer speak to it though.
Mara Rinn, there is no intention to move this to mining. This came from a mining prototype that hasn't been taken forward anywhere. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4804
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:28:00 -
[182] - Quote
Prototype = "stated intent" apparently |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4804
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:29:00 -
[183] - Quote
La'Krul wrote:Sorry to pre-judge but it looks like garbage. There really wasn't much wrong with exploration anyway, so they'll probably ruin it now instead of fixing null or something useful. As someone who has all probe skills at V and salvager, analyzer, codebreaker at V, I really won't be too happy if a whole load of new probing and module skills are released on the back of this junk.
A mini-game, I mean seriously, WTF! There wasn't much wrong with a system where you clear a room of rats like you do in pretty much every single site there is, go up to a can that's sitting in space for no reason, and activate a module and twiddle your thumbs?
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LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:37:00 -
[184] - Quote
Another game using a similar mini game which i loved
Obviously that was a very easy lvl to hack but I could not find a harder example. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:38:00 -
[185] - Quote
I think this could work. Perhaps if you have a ship with the hacking mods and a ship with 8 highs full of tractor beams then it may be possible to gather all the loot. Trying to grab all the contents manually will be akin to looting a level 4 missions without tractor beams. So I guess people will adapt if it works something similar to this. Looking forward to seeing the Devblog anyway.
Just on a related note, I too am concerned about the details regarding the probing mechanics. What will happen to those who use 8 probes, will we still be able to use them? Also scanning using combat scanning probes will become incredibly quick. Has this been taken account of in the balance decisions, or is it intended that ships become much easier to scan down? Scanning had become sort of an art in its current form, my concern is that it sounds as though it has become dumbed down quite a bit. |
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CCP Prime
C C P C C P Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:43:00 -
[186] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback, the reactions are varied and heated and that was expected.
I want to underline one thing in this feature, and that is that you get the loot automatically put into your cargohold, if you have available space for it. There's no UI window management involved. The plan is to show the cargohold button blink and above it what it is that you recovered.
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Krants
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:44:00 -
[187] - Quote
I'd really like to hear how CCP rationalizes this new mechanics on lore level - the wreck of the ship that was shown in new and "improved" exploration was of the same class that came from Earth, how can it still have a positive pressure after hundreds, if not thousands of years after being abandoned? And how are the explorers SO stupid that they don't check pressure before opening the hatches - i mean fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me.... etc?
It just feels like CCP wanted to put some new "feature" in and they went along the first idea they got without even thinking how or why. |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
172
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:48:00 -
[188] - Quote
When this goes live on the test server can you choose a system to seed these in to a ridiculous level this will allow us to properly test it out, rather than having to search multiple systems to find 1 or 2. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
112
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:09:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Prime wrote:Thanks for the feedback, the reactions are varied and heated and that was expected.
I want to underline one thing in this feature, and that is that you get the loot you take automatically put into your cargohold, if you have available space for it. There's no UI window management involved. The plan is to show the cargohold button blink and above it what it is that you recovered.
That is nice. Could this be adapted in some form for all kinds of looting?
E.g. click on the container/wreck --> radial menu or plain old menu --> loot --> stuff goes into cargohold if it all fits, no windows pop up
That would be awesome. |
Nicen Jehr
Swarm Federation
187
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Posted - 2013.04.29 12:11:00 -
[190] - Quote
the hate, it burns! Looking forward to trying this out.
will our hacking and archeology skills be modified? will we still have to be within 2500m of the cans to open them? will the cans appear on overview? Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
451
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:16:00 -
[191] - Quote
Krants wrote:I'd really like to hear how CCP rationalizes this new mechanics on lore level - the wreck of the ship that was shown in new and "improved" exploration was of the same class that came from Earth, how can it still have a positive pressure after hundreds, if not thousands of years after being abandoned? And how are the explorers SO stupid that they don't check pressure before opening the hatches - i mean fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me.... etc?
It just feels like CCP wanted to put some new "feature" in and they went along the first idea they got without even thinking how or why. This mech got nothing on pirate battleships and other assorted vessels getting ejected in all directions (and travelling dozens of kilometers in the process) from bottom station wreck in "Pirate invasion" when they spawn. It's called "emerging from shadows", apparently
What were they doing there, anyways? Attempts at using Archeology skill by poking ruins with their True Sansha Nightmares' pointy noses or something? |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3316
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:20:00 -
[192] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Prototype = "stated intent" apparently
Why else would you prototype something and introduce that mechanic into the game? Until CCP Bayesian clarified the situation, it appeared to me that they were prototyping this, testing with exploration, with the intent of moving the mechanic to mining in a later expansion, since changing how a hacking container spawns might be easier than changing how asteroids spawn.
Remember, if you worry about being too paranoid, you're not paranoid enough.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3316
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:22:00 -
[193] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:E.g. click on the container/wreck --> radial menu or plain old menu --> loot --> stuff goes into cargohold if it all fits, no windows pop up.
+1, a "loot all" option on the radial to avoid dealing with inventory windows would be very nice.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1672
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:23:00 -
[194] - Quote
So lets break it on down:
EVE Players: Give us new stuff in the game
(CCP gives new "never before seen in EVE" stuffs)
EVE Players: Noooooooo, we've never seen this before but we already know we don't like it, give us stuff that looks exactly like stuff we've seen a million times!!!
(CCP gives stuff seen millions of times before)
EVE Players: CCP is bad because they never give new stuff.
Conclusion: you couldn't pay me enough to work for ccp in any capacity where i had to look at any forum ever. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
321
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:30:00 -
[195] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Understand where I am coming from. I think the designers at CCP are intelligent people who do good work for the game and have worthy goals. ItGÇÖs true, I have personally lamented the fact that design documents always included real at the expense of fun when considering new features to add into EVE when I thought both factors should be included. For example, the new multi-launch probe system with preset formations is both fun enhancing and feels real. It is a great addition to the game in my view.
However, the new system of hacking a hull by way of a mini-game that results in an explosion of goodies you and a pal have to run catch or lose looks to be a SILLY addition to play. ItGÇÖs a feature more worthy of an action game that doesnGÇÖt take itself seriously instead of a a space sim like EVE. I think they should keep the goodies in a can to collect even if said can looks like a space ship to loot now. There are better ways to make exploration less of a solo activity but I am not sure they can kill multi-boxing on PC to get around this anyway as boxer can account for it.
I understand the need to make the game more accessible to new players. I understand making the game look nicer to improve its appeal with gate, docking, and new probe interface animations. ItGÇÖs why I can accept the change in terminology for site names. But none of it should be done at the expense of actual, in-depth, play. Put it all together with the catch and grab mechanic and its like some one is looking to GÇ£dumb downGÇ¥ the game into an action game for PS4, tablets, mobiles, and novelty gadgets like Oculus.
There are enough shallow, pretty looking, little action games on the market right now and EVEGÇÖs intelligence, depth and breadth, is the only thing that keeps people here and playing as long as they do. I know the game has to grow and adapt but not at the cost of its core values with features like that.
It will be way harder with the mini game and catching loot than sit there for 5 mins waiting for the can to be hacked than click to loot. WTF are u saying? More interaction with the enviroment around us and with other players is the way to go. Time of boring mechanics is a past, embrace the future man.
LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
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El Geo
Pathfinders. The Marmite Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:36:00 -
[196] - Quote
Maybe, just maybe, CCP would consider making these just new types of sites, adding to the universe instead and maybe just tweaking the old sites to look a little better with new dungeon looks (the new sites do look much better)
I wonder if they are considering using something similar to change other chance based modules, like ecm.... path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n. 1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvEPathfinders/videos?view=0 |
Rual Storge
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 12:36:00 -
[197] - Quote
Complaining doesnt work, try seducing hilmar in his favourite pub... |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:03:00 -
[198] - Quote
new group content
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1359
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:10:00 -
[199] - Quote
Rual Storge wrote:Complaining doesnt work, try seducing hilmar in his favourite pub...
Doubt Hilmar does much with Eve anymore. Pretty much so long as **** doesn't hit the fan, hes prob more focused on Dust atm.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:16:00 -
[200] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alek Row wrote:I'm not into hacking myself, but from other games experiences, this kind of mini games usually get boring VERY fast. For certain activities F1 still have a place despite the obvious lack of interaction.
This is one of your experiments right? Otherwise you had put this kind of mini games in mining (LOL). Let's just start with hacking first?
It can't possibly be as boring as what we have now.
^^ I think a lot of people are overlooking this. Many of these posts read as if the current system is a paragon of enjoyment. I'm actually doing a mag site on an alt as I write this, which shows about how much interaction they take. I'm really excited about the new system and am already sold--even solely because of the fact that I can do mag/radar sites now on my scanner and not have to change ships. So long as the new system reduces the total amount of clicks I need do to while scanning (i.e., that it does not become a click-fest).
One final thought atm: Will the loot drops of mag/radar sites be improved? What about in low/null sec, where those sites are not generally run because of the time/lack of isk? |
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Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
0
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Posted - 2013.04.29 13:20:00 -
[201] - Quote
The old exploration needed a revamp. I'm not against these minigames (as long as I can divide my attention between them and my d-scan/local); They might get old but they give you something to do rather than looking at a can for five minutes.
What I don't like at all about the new system is the vanishing loot. That is so against everything else in EVE! Try that on PVP ships!
I like to do my exploration solo. It's something to do if my buddies aren't online or if I don't have a lot of time myself. (which sadly happens quite a lot). I'm sure ther are a lot of players like that. In a group I do other stuff designed to do in a group. Now I have the feeling of being punished for doing it alone. Even if I collect the same amount as before from the few cans I can collect, the new system gives you the psychological feeling of loss instead of gain.
I wouldn't mind chasing after them and exposing myself more to ganking or ninja looting. That's part of the fun! But those cans disappearing in front of me makes exploration a frustrating experience.
Please, CCP don't make this small but fun part of EVE a frustrating experience. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1519
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:27:00 -
[202] - Quote
Mining mechanics should be more strategy based and not reaction based. It's all about planning where to drill and what to dig up. I hated it back in ELITE when you shot up a asteroid and then had to hunt down all the pieces flying off, losing track of most of them in the process.
Similar, I think Archaeology should be about rummaging through ruins for hints and puzzle pieces until you have enough to put a map together that allows you to find some valuable cache.
Really, the more I think about the jettisoning of random bit you collect, the less I like it. Maybe try something more sophisticated? Sovereignty and Population Moulds and water for the sandbox. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1359
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:31:00 -
[203] - Quote
I wouldn't mind a mini game for archaeology that is similar to the probing system in ME2. Say taking reads of a object in order to triangulate a hit on something that is hidden inside. Ofc with any minigame in Eve it will be a bit difficult to do the minigame while spamming D-scan and monitoring potential threats.
[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206023&find=unread[/url] |
|
CCP Bayesian
635
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:53:00 -
[204] - Quote
Nicen Jehr wrote:the hate, it burns! Looking forward to trying this out.
will our hacking and archeology skills be modified? will we still have to be within 2500m of the cans to open them? will the cans appear on overview?
Team Superfriends are all about the skills for Exploration but as far as I'm aware they aren't about to change the core skills. We might see some new ones though but I'll let them fill in the details.
Currently we are experimenting with the interaction range for the scattered cans. You'll definitely still need to be close to start the hacking and going out of range will fail the attempt and that will stay with the same interaction distances that the modules have right now. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1788
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:54:00 -
[205] - Quote
Ive seen the names "Relic" "Data" "Gas" and "Ore" mentioned to describe the new sites. But what about the "unknown" category? Will sites that have wormholes or combat be getting new names? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:59:00 -
[206] - Quote
Holy crapola a couple devs with balls that will answer questions and admit a few small mistakes like not having a blog out in time??? I don't like the loot spew mechanic but the openness is refreshing. The mini-game is ok...I tend to like anything that keeps people's eyes off of local and d-scan so they don't notice the Pilgrim decloaking.
All mechanics aside, will the loot still be the same for mag sites or is there more valuable stuff being added to the drop tables? I see there are many new decriptors so radar is probably still solid income. Unless something worthwhile is added to the mags they will remain the bottom of the barrel for exploration regardless of what system you find them in. No mini-game is going to attract more people to sites that are a waste of time in comparison to almost every other activity in the game. |
|
CCP Bayesian
635
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:59:00 -
[207] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Prototype = "stated intent" apparently Why else would you prototype something and introduce that mechanic into the game? Until CCP Bayesian clarified the situation, it appeared to me that they were prototyping this, testing with exploration, with the intent of moving the mechanic to mining in a later expansion, since changing how a hacking container spawns might be easier than changing how asteroids spawn. Remember, if you worry about being too paranoid, you're not paranoid enough.
I actually did a presentation about this at Fanfest, hopefully it'll be up on the Twitch site at some point soon if it isn't already. IIRC you can watch the SD stream of it for free.
Essentially though prototyping an idea is no guarantee it will go anywhere. For every good idea we move forward with there are a pile of terrible ones that sounded interesting but ultimately didn't work out for one reason or another. What they do let us do is find good ideas that may not have worked in one setting but did work so we have lots of things to draw on in the future. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
CCP Bayesian
635
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:02:00 -
[208] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Holy crapola a couple devs with balls that will answer questions and admit a few small mistakes like not having a blog out in time??? I don't like the loot spew mechanic but the openness is refreshing. The mini-game is ok...I tend to like anything that keeps people's eyes off of local and d-scan so they don't notice the Pilgrim decloaking.
All mechanics aside, will the loot still be the same for mag sites or is there more valuable stuff being added to the drop tables? I see there are many new decriptors so radar is probably still solid income. Unless something worthwhile is added to the mags they will remain the bottom of the barrel for exploration regardless of what system you find them in. No mini-game is going to attract more people to sites that are a waste of time in comparison to almost every other activity in the game.
Thanks, one of the key things for me at least is a lot of sensible interaction with you guys.
We're rebalancing the sites and updating loot tables. It's not something I'm directly involved in deciding though so I'll let the others talk about it. At the moment we're probably going to do one blog about the mechanics and another about the rebalancing. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
7
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:06:00 -
[209] - Quote
Arin Archer wrote:... They have ZERO to do while you go about your business of discovering and hacking the site. The only reason they're there is to wait for that magical 30 seconds when the loot explodes so they can click like mad. Who wants to do that? ...
It really makes no sense for a second pilot to be there. CCP, please reconsider this forced arcade game mechanic that makes no sense when everything else, most importantly your solo player base, is taken into account...
That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :) |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
391
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:13:00 -
[210] - Quote
This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense.
The hacking minigame is cool. I like it, it's better than just hitting a module.
However past that... it just seems dumb. It's not going to encourage group play, it's just going to require explorers to drag an alt yet again.
There were other ways to really make exploration something cool. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
|
Asticus Khamsi
MIN0R THREAT
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:15:00 -
[211] - Quote
Are the minigames for low/null/WH going be long enough to compensate for the current risk of being probed down/jumped on while fighting the current rats/flying around the can?
Because lowsec exploring is currently one of the very few PvE activities that actually give increased reward to compensate for the risk, so if the minigame is short it will just be highsec exploring with bigger rewards if you can fly a Cover Ops Frigate. |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
105
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:17:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Mis'tral wrote:So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items? It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on. We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.
From my experience exploration as always been more geared torwards solo capsuleers and it works so why change this? Arent lvl4 missions the thing you want to make more of a group activity! Oderint Dum Metuant |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
391
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:23:00 -
[213] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Mis'tral wrote:So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items? It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on. We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ. From my experience exploration as always been more geared torwards solo capsuleers and it works so why change this? Arent lvl4 missions the thing you want to make more of a group activity!
Exactly. Exploration should be 90% solo, and the largers finds something on a group scale. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
|
CCP Bayesian
635
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:24:00 -
[214] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :)
Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
392
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:32:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :) Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.
Then encourage that, however making some sort of arbitrary mechanic to force it just makes it terrible.
It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:35:00 -
[216] - Quote
Steijn wrote:The hacking mini-game is okay, but the exploding/radiating/time sensitive loot is a very poor idea imo.
a) if your reactions are poor, tough you just wasted your time as everything just went poof.
b) if you have a small amount of empty real estate on your screen, tough, you just missed where everything went and now its gone poof.
c) if you normally operate at a zoomed out level, tough, you havent a clue whats green, whats red etc as you cant see them and now theyve all gone poof.
IMO, CCP have tried to involve a mini-game with regards the loot, that isnt needed and looks out of place. The only thing it does is improve anyones chances of getting ganked in low/null.
So CCP, if your trying to improve PVP, great as you will, but dont try saying that this is an improvement for explorers because it isnt. A) Probably not too bad for me
B) This is me, I think I have about 1/6(or less) of my screen that shows actually space, the rest is Overview/Chats/Fleet window/Drone Window/CargoHold/Locked Targets/HUD, If I'm in LS/NS/WH then add Directional Scanner to this list
C) Depends on what you call zoomed out, My Normal view is Camera at what ever my Lock Range is +5km(basically so that in that sliver of screen that can see space I can see as much as possible and still keep some form of situational awareness (so this is most likely between about 30km and 130km depending on ship being used) |
Nicen Jehr
Swarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:36:00 -
[217] - Quote
Thanks for the updates CCP Bayesian Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
Ember Saint
Time-Lost Proto-Drake
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:37:00 -
[218] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now. can you drag little cans faster in two windows? |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:39:00 -
[219] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now.
While I admit I am starting to think of ways I could rig things up is isBoxer to go get all the cans with an army of herons. However, if doing the professional solo after the expansion is anywhere near on par with how it is now isk wise I honestly will start to try to get people to group explore. Sure I could come up with this perfect profile that makes it easy to multibox and keep all the isk for myself but that seems like too much work. Now on the other hand, if a professional site is dropping on average the same as it is now but you need to grab ALL the cans to get the same isk you would of got before then I think that will push me over the edge and just multibox it and screw being social because I want the iskies!
Ember Saint wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now. can you drag little cans faster in two windows?
So long as the cans show up in the overview and that if you click the can in the overview it will drag it to your cargo then all you need is some repeater regions and some video feeds and bam it is easy as pie. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:40:00 -
[220] - Quote
So am I reading this right? Exploration will now result in a loot Pinata of cans that we have to run around and grab??? And they may disappear very quickly? I sure hope I am missing something. This is not what you should be spending your development time on. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
|
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
392
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:45:00 -
[221] - Quote
Ember Saint wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now. can you drag little cans faster in two windows? Yes.
Also much faster than 2-3 people scrambling to grab the same can.
Ever been in a fleet and told to spread points? Guess what happens usually. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:46:00 -
[222] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :) Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.
Ninja exploring. So many tears to be had. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:47:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :) Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.
Redone mag loot tables and consideration for exploration hi-jackers in the design? I'll reserve any further judgement until the blog is out and it hits sisi. Sounds good to me so far. Suspect pinata parties would probably be fun but smartbombing a cloud of cov ops waiting for the spew would be more fun so please encourage them to congregate and loot "safely".
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Also much faster than 2-3 people scrambling to grab the same can.
Ever been in a fleet and told to spread points? Guess what happens usually.
What kind of morons do you fly with? |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:50:00 -
[224] - Quote
Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:06:00 -
[225] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. I agree, they are just trying to force a dedicated scanning ship. And then figure out a reason for them to be there, well lets make them chance cans.
This is just bad. Group play for exploration is ONE guy running multiple accounts (as with many things in eve). And I detest running multiple accounts (have mulitple accounts but rarely do I feel the desire the run more than one at once). This does not promote group play. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:08:00 -
[226] - Quote
As I and the rest of the EVE community have not tried this new game mechanic I find most of this discussion to be speculative.
I understand that people are concerned about changes that may impact their game but basing a strong opinion on speculation is not constructive.
Seeing as we have not been informed of the full range of changes/additions in the pipeline for this feature I don't feel that anyone is in position to comment with certainty on this aspect of Odyssey only ask relevant questions.
Some questions I have about this feature are: -What is the minimum number of players required to scoop all the loot? -What difference is there in the value of the loot dropped in comparison to current sites? -What will be the effect of modules on this new "hacking?" |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:09:00 -
[227] - Quote
Lady Zarrina wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. I agree, they are just trying to force a dedicated scanning ship. And then figure out a reason for them to be there, well lets make them chance cans. This is just bad. Group play for exploration is ONE guy running multiple accounts (as with many things in eve). And I detest running multiple accounts (have mulitple accounts but rarely do I feel the desire the run more than one at once). This does not promote group play.
CCP rewarding teamwork in a multiplayer game what ever next?! |
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:11:00 -
[228] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback CCP Bayesian!
I still think that forcing players to do something is not good design.
People who want to play in groups can do so. The game provides a multitude of possibilities. In fact EVE can only be fully enjoyed while playing with other people.
But exploration has been one of the only things that you can do solo and in a short amount of time. There is a niche for that kind of gameplay in EVE. Sometimes you don't have the time, the will or the online buddies to play in a group. It's not that exploration is the biggest ISK making profession in the game.
Forcing group play upon exploration will annoy players. I see little added value to that.
Vanishing loot is a stupid idea, I can't say it in any other way. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:13:00 -
[229] - Quote
Strata Maslav wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. I agree, they are just trying to force a dedicated scanning ship. And then figure out a reason for them to be there, well lets make them chance cans. This is just bad. Group play for exploration is ONE guy running multiple accounts (as with many things in eve). And I detest running multiple accounts (have mulitple accounts but rarely do I feel the desire the run more than one at once). This does not promote group play. CCP rewarding teamwork in a multiplayer game what ever next?! I guess it was too much for you to actually read the whole post. We know what group play is....... One guy with 5 account. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:13:00 -
[230] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me.
If a single player can get the same amount of materials out a site when comparing exploration before and after the expansion what would be the issue?
Much of this thread is people jumping conclusions and speculation. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1676
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:17:00 -
[231] - Quote
Strata Maslav wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. If a single player can get the same amount of materials out a site when comparing exploration before and after the expansion what would be the issue?
Their issue (a dumb as it is) is that they will FEEL like they are losing out because they will never know what was in the cans that popped. So it doesn't matter (to them) that average pay out remains the same, they FEEL like they are losing something (that they never had in the 1st place lol). I'm sure most of them will feel totally sure that the loot that popped contained rare T2 BPCs everytime lol
Quote: Much of this thread human experience is people jumping conclusions and speculation.
fixed that last bit for you
|
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
158
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:17:00 -
[232] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me.
No way they'll fit on a tech 1 scanning frigate, even the tech 2s will struggle to fit 5 more modules on top of the usual modules and they'll be pretty useless for anything after that.
10 slots total on a cov ops - cloak, probe launcher, decoder, analyzer plus 5 new modules leaves a whole 1 for variety - prop or tank? |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:19:00 -
[233] - Quote
Lady Zarrina wrote:Strata Maslav wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. I agree, they are just trying to force a dedicated scanning ship. And then figure out a reason for them to be there, well lets make them chance cans. This is just bad. Group play for exploration is ONE guy running multiple accounts (as with many things in eve). And I detest running multiple accounts (have mulitple accounts but rarely do I feel the desire the run more than one at once). This does not promote group play. CCP rewarding teamwork in a multiplayer game what ever next?! I guess it was too much for you to actually read the whole post. We know what group play is....... One guy with 5 account.
I am actually involved in EVE PVE group play and if you can do something that should take 3 people more power to you. I think the biggest assumption everyone in this thread is making is that: CCP is going to make a site require 3 people to gather all the loot therefor a solo player will only be able to get a third of the current value of a current site!
CCP have said they are rebalancing the site but have not given us concrete numbers, but judging by their track record I doubt they will be "nerfing solo exploration" more buffing people working together.
So as you may speculate they are going to ruin solo exploration I am going to speculate that they will increase the total loot available in a site and therefore encourage people to work together. |
|
CCP Bayesian
644
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:22:00 -
[234] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:Thanks for the feedback CCP Bayesian!
I still think that forcing players to do something is not good design.
Absolutely which is why we are incentivising it so it's a more attractive choice.
Solkara Starlock wrote:People who want to play in groups can do so. The game provides a multitude of possibilities. In fact EVE can only be fully enjoyed while playing with other people.
But exploration has been one of the only things that you can do solo and in a short amount of time. There is a niche for that kind of gameplay in EVE. Sometimes you don't have the time, the will or the online buddies to play in a group. It's not that exploration is the biggest ISK making profession in the game.
Forcing group play upon exploration will annoy players. I see little added value to that.
Vanishing loot is a stupid idea, I can't say it in any other way.
We are not intent on forcing people to abandon solo exploration as I've said previously in this thread. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
158
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:24:00 -
[235] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Strata Maslav wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. If a single player can get the same amount of materials out a site when comparing exploration before and after the expansion what would be the issue? Their issue (a dumb as it is) is that they will FEEL like they are losing out because they will never know what was in the cans that popped. So it doesn't matter (to them) that average pay out remains the same, they FEEL like they are losing something (that they never had in the 1st place lol). I'm sure most of them will feel totally sure that the loot that popped contained rare T2 BPCs everytime lol Quote: Much of this thread human experience is people jumping conclusions and speculation.
fixed that last bit for you
Grass is Greener syndrome
Every time someone misses out on a possible win they WILL feel like they probably missed out on 'The Big One', whatever it is, that's just human nature. It'll be especially bad if they end up with three of 'The Rubbish One'.
I'm just hoping my arthritic fingers can cope with the grabbing game when it comes up on SiSi to try. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:28:00 -
[236] - Quote
Strata Maslav wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Strata Maslav wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Gal'o Sengen wrote:Why even try limit solo exploration? Solo exploration is one of the best ways to teach new players how to EVE while earning them their first real dosh. And adding five more modules to scanning? Are you serious? The module bloat for exploration is already stupid. Aside from the improvements to probing itself, the whole thing seems stupid to me. I agree, they are just trying to force a dedicated scanning ship. And then figure out a reason for them to be there, well lets make them chance cans. This is just bad. Group play for exploration is ONE guy running multiple accounts (as with many things in eve). And I detest running multiple accounts (have mulitple accounts but rarely do I feel the desire the run more than one at once). This does not promote group play. CCP rewarding teamwork in a multiplayer game what ever next?! I guess it was too much for you to actually read the whole post. We know what group play is....... One guy with 5 account. I am actually involved in EVE PVE group play and if you can do something that should take 3 people more power to you. I think the biggest assumption everyone in this thread is making is that: CCP is going to make a site require 3 people to gather all the loot therefor a solo player will only be able to get a third of the current value of a current site! CCP have said they are rebalancing the site but have not given us concrete numbers, but judging by their track record I doubt they will be nerfing "solo exploration" more buffing people working together. So as you may speculate they are going to ruin solo exploration I am going to speculate that they will increase the total loot available in a site and therefore encourage people to work together.
I don't this this will ruin solo exploration. I think this is a needless stupid idea. Chasing cans....... Waste of development time for very little return. Chasing cans.... Can't wait until we get walking in stations to play tag. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
398
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:38:00 -
[237] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:[
What kind of morons do you fly with? The best/funniest/scariest morons in the game.
Who have I flown with before? A cross section of everyone.
Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
398
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:43:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: We are not intent on forcing people to abandon solo exploration as I've said previously in this thread.
No, however you're making it fairly pointless not to.
With the amount of modules, and the can pinata you can't be anywhere alone without losing a good chunk of the loot. What's the threshold here?
How many "good" items are ejected? How long do you have to grab them? With what means can you do so?
Are these sites out in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of a busy system 2 AU from a planet which would make zero sense for something to be undetected for so long.
So the items form a storyline? Do they delve into the lore of the Eve universe, or is it just some junk to throw in your cargohold and sell like generic mission loot?
Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
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CCP Prime
C C P C C P Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:49:00 -
[239] - Quote
As it stands, you have containers bursting out in groups along an axis in a random direction.
It's not much of a chase, but more of a decision what is the optimal way to position your ship to recover the most of the loot. As for the assumption that this is twitched based gameplay, we'll see once it is on SISI and what the feedback will be. In the state it was demoed you have to invest ~4 seconds to get one can, meaning that once you've clicked it, you have ~4 seconds to choose what can to take next. |
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CCP Bayesian
645
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 15:58:00 -
[240] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote: We are not intent on forcing people to abandon solo exploration as I've said previously in this thread.
No, however you're making it fairly pointless not to.
That depends on how the balancing is done. It won't be pointless if people soloing can still make what they consider a reasonable income for a reasonable risk and time investment.
Vincent Gaines wrote:With the amount of modules, and the can pinata you can't be anywhere alone without losing a good chunk of the loot. What's the threshold here?
How many "good" items are ejected? How long do you have to grab them? With what means can you do so?
How long is a piece of string? These are things that will effectively be set for first release on Sisi through internal playtesting, then monitored and altered as the feature is in testing there and will be actively monitored on TQ as we see real world usage.
Quote:Are these sites out in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of a busy system 2 AU from a planet which would make zero sense for something to be undetected for so long.
So the items form a storyline? Do they delve into the lore of the Eve universe, or is it just some junk to throw in your cargohold and sell like generic mission loot?
The sites are the exploration sites that currently exist with their contents rebalanced. It would nice to involve lore and new consumable content in with this update to exploration but impractical given our development restraints. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
226
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:04:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Mis'tral wrote:So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items? It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on. We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.
Completely destroyed? Can we be able to "salvage" the destroyed containers and its contents? If not, please have it so the hacked site recovers from the hacking virus and shoots the containers down. That has a better feel than the not-designed-from-space angle. |
marVLs
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:06:00 -
[242] - Quote
Floating disappearing cans are good idea (can solo and with friends with the same income for everyone) - APPROVED if this will be one of many systems not only one
Minigame hmm meeh not sure about it, it can be easily boring and frustrating (especially in LS when You must keep eye on local/scan) - HALF APPROVED and only if this will be one of many systems not only one
Make some interesting, diverse hacking system. And make REAL exploring.
I'm afraid the most that we will get another one type mechanic for every exploration site... What is exploration by players and CCP (damn by every person on this planet)? Answer: Unpredictable, always something new!!! That's the most important thing! When i go exploring i don't know what to expect, what i will need to do to get loot, or spawn some stuff etc, every site should be different, not: every hacking site is be the same minigame, same floating cans etc... |
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:07:00 -
[243] - Quote
Even if the loot will be equal.
People will not care about the can they could catch, but be sorry about those they couldn't. You'll probably have more players angry and disliking this part of the game. I doubt they will be calling on their friends to go can hunting. They will call upon their friends to go ship hunting or so.
Somehow this feels like giving solo players a bad feeling about playing solo. That's why it feels like forcing group play. |
Moth Eisig
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:10:00 -
[244] - Quote
Most of this thread has focused on the minigames and loot pinata, but the real game changer is removing NPC rats from exploration sites, and I'm not sure how I feel about that part.
For one, I've spent several weeks now training up a second account to do the combat portion of harder low/null sites since having a ship that scans and opens containers and can handle the NPCs all at once is hard to do. Now that account will have almost no purpose for me, and unless I can split screen and grab more loot with two ships, I might just let that account expire.
No NPCs also mean that we will see both a lot of stabbed cloaky frigates doing exploration, at least initially, but I'm worried that exploration in low sec (where I am most active), will be completely taken over by the small-gang PvPers.
Before, there was no reason for explorers to cooperate with the PvP gangs. Explorers gained nothing from teaming up with PvPers because they could get all the loot themselves without any help, so why share if you don't have to. Now the reverse is true, there is no reason *not* to team up with PvP gangs because the explorers get added protection, help with chasing out other explorers, and the loot the PvPers get as payment s loot the scanners would have missed out on anyhow.
At the same time, the combat gangs only have to be present if there's someone to shoot (which they want to do anyhow) or when the loot is ready to pop. It's basically extra income for them for no extra effort while bypassing the majority of the unexciting non-PvP parts, so there's zero reason for them not to muscle in on exploration.
All this is as planned to get more fights for those who like PvP, but it will make solo exploring in low sec extremely difficult. I don't mind having to be more wary, but solo exploration is what I enjoy right now in EVE, and I don't want to see its viability completely vanish. I'm glad CCP is saying they don't want solo exploration to vanish, but I'd like to hear someone give reasons for why this won't happen.
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Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:14:00 -
[245] - Quote
I know that CCP stated that there was no plan yet to expand upon mining.
Actually, the comparison between two profession is interesting I think.
We have here two activity which shares they "simple" or basic ultimate tasks (eg; put module on, gather loot), but that require both thoughtful preparation logistically speaking in order to excel.
If apparently exploration need a minigame to be attractive, by how much mining does ?
What I'm trying to convey here is that for me EVE "fun" has never been grounded on the pure instant of interaction between the player and the UI (which may define pretty much an "action game"), but on the decision making which scale at any step where the EVE player engage itself (be it's carrier path, or the choice between 2 targets in the fire of pewpew).
What could enhance the actual minigame while keeping the "interaction" that you appear to seek is therefore integrating this decision-making component into its core mechanics.
Could the resolution of the hacking process affect the loot not only in a binary manner ? Why do I choose to grab this can instead of another ?
TLDR: Minigames may be acceptable, but at least try to put into them some meaning. Can you manage to combine EVE's depth with "reactivity". |
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CCP Bayesian
645
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:14:00 -
[246] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:Even if the loot will be equal.
People will not care about the can they could catch, but be sorry about those they couldn't. You'll probably have more players angry and disliking this part of the game. I doubt they will be calling on their friends to go can hunting. They will call upon their friends to go ship hunting or so.
Somehow this feels like giving solo players a bad feeling about playing solo. That's why it feels like forcing group play.
I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:16:00 -
[247] - Quote
I love the direction you are going in, CCP, introducing mini-games. This is the way to make the different aspects of EVE truly different, not all the same stuff with just a different name.
Now I don't know whether I will like this particular exploration mini-game, we will see. But if you make a lot of such things for different aspects of EVE, and make them really diverse, everyone will find some things they really enjoy. And some other things which they hate or are just bad at. And that's exactly how it should be! Are people in real life good at every profession? Hardly. When professions are really different, and require different skills and interests, only then they are true professions.
As for the whiners who want no "twitching" in EVE: Fine, continue doing what you did before, go do some missions and click on cans. I'm absolutely in favor of keeping some of this old content around for those who want it. So you won't miss anything. Let us others have the new stuff!
Now make more radically diverse mini-games for: -PI -mining -manufacturing (obviously no action game there, something that involves thinking and analysis) -archaelogy (the new game apparently involves hacking, so there could be a separate mini-game for mag sites further down the road)
And in the spirit of how you seem to finally try to make EVE more immersive and make more things happen in the game graphics and not in the database-dump-UI, there could be other new activities that involve manually flying and similar stuff. The possibilities are endless. . |
Nicen Jehr
Swarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:18:00 -
[248] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river. since this is eve we can safely say someone will end up with a fishhook in the eye Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:19:00 -
[249] - Quote
During the eve keynote, I believe it was mentioned that you wanted to move exploration away from the current mechanics of shooting red crosses and looting cans (aka being identical to missions and combat anoms). Something was also stated along the lines of 'it doesn't make sense to discover something new and have pirates waiting for you'. Likewise, during the exploration demonstration there were no hostile npcs that needed to be killed.
So several questions: 1) Will all exploration (radar/mag) sites no longer have hostile npc's?
2) Will all exploration sites be affected by the changes, or will some have the old system i.e. we keep all of the old sites but in addition we have some new sites with mini-game thrown into the mix?
3) If exploration does become non-combat, would that make the covert-ops exploration frigates actually viable as explorers or will there be environmental factors/sources of damage that would make us want to take the typical combat fit T3/BC/BS? |
Lost True
Paradise project
2124
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:19:00 -
[250] - Quote
Well, it's sound like somthing interesting.
So it'll be better to do it with a covet ops ship? in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
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Alicia Evelyn
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2013.04.29 16:20:00 -
[251] - Quote
I'd like to suggest that you make the mini-game cooperative and even potentially competitive. So one person could "hack" the site by playing the mini-game, but two or more people could work together to do it faster. Loot should result continuously from the mini-game playing process.
I think there's a lot of room for interesting experimentation there without resorting to a gimmicky twitch based mechanic. |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:20:00 -
[252] - Quote
Are we getting Diablo Style "Hold alt key Grab Everything Possible" type of looting now?
Now while the above is relevant, I do like that Exploration sites can now be teamed up with. Everybody gets something, and they have to be attentive and "There" to get it. You can potentially get MORE if you bring 2 or 3 people with you, rather than trying to max out profits by doing it solo (so you keep the cool shiny stuff).
Can the above be tweaked, I believe so. Good idea.
Assume people flying in a bazillion alts, or bringing a pair of catalysts with 8 tractor beams each to mass scoop stuff.. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1788
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:23:00 -
[253] - Quote
For solar systems with multiple sites having a friend along increases the wealth for both of you. You both scan a site out, then both go to the first one, hack and grab. Then you both go to the second one, hack and grab. As the scanning was done in parallel, some time is saved. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
147
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:25:00 -
[254] - Quote
Lost True wrote:Well, it's sound like somthing interesting.
So it'll be better to do it with a covet ops ship?
YES! Especially officer fit cov ops ships and you won't even have to do the hacking. Just wait at the can and grab the good bits when it pops out....the officer and faction mods will increase the chances of getting something good. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3321
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:26:00 -
[255] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense.
The purpose is to provide interaction through reaching out and touching, just like CCP Soundwave told us in his presentation about game design principles. So rather than sit there with modules cycling so we can simply open a can and take the loot, we are presented with a puzzle to solve: where do you sit yourself so that you can collect the greatest number of cans? If you have two people you theoretically double your chances since you can cover twice as much space. This is how teamwork/alts will be rewarded. It is like placing fielders in a game of cricket or baseball.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
568
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:27:00 -
[256] - Quote
Why make exploration even more random than it currently is? Not only do you have to get a good drop, but now you have to get lucky and grab the right cans too?
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Krants
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:29:00 -
[257] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Minigame hmm meeh not sure about it, it can be easily boring and frustrating (especially in LS when You must keep eye on local/scan) - HALF APPROVED and only if this will be one of many systems not only one
Make some interesting, diverse hacking system. And make REAL exploring.
They could add much more variables to hacking mini game - try to hack the wrecked ships computer in hard mode to depressurize docking chamber so that loot wouldn't drift away when you finish that mini-game, or if you fail in mini-game the wreck explodes and damages your ship. There are so many small ways to make it more real, more Eve like of cause-effect based on player choices. |
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CCP Bayesian
647
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Posted - 2013.04.29 16:31:00 -
[258] - Quote
Fereval Kondur, those are all good points. We definitely agree that the larger scale gameplay, particularly when it gets social is what defines EVE as a game. That doesn't mean the tasks that you can do and organise around shouldn't also be interesting in themselves. We have plenty of people working on "the Universe" but the details do need some love as well. I would absolutely love to tie this into EVE on a wider scale and we have some exciting ideas for future iterations that I'll go into in the devblog.
Things like success in the minigame affecting the scattering in a non-binary manner is most definitely on the table. For example at a basic level we could add in secondary objectives that if complete cause the scattered cans to be obviously distinguishable (in a context appropriate manner, like discovering the "cargo manifest"). We're also thinking of ways of tying some new items from the hacking into the market but that needs some more thinking so is unlikely to make the first release.
What happens depends on what we see the feature doing on TQ. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Lost True
Paradise project
2124
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:31:00 -
[259] - Quote
I wonder if it can became an interesting thing to do in highsec, along with the mining. It's fine if it's can be done in the group, i'd like to invite a friend or just someone from the local (which is something i like about the high sec - i can do so without screwing things up) to collect the things.
But...
1. It's should be proffitable. At least not less than a missions and mining, with all exploration skills. 2. It's should be win-win, so the player i've invited will recieve a proffit without me losing mine. 3. There should be some heavy skills. So if i'll train them all, there will be a reason to invite someone. Overwise everyone will do it solo and won't give a damn about joining with someone skilled. in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3322
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:38:00 -
[260] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Why make exploration even more random than it currently is? Not only do you have to get a good drop, but now you have to get lucky and grab the right cans too?
I am prepared to give the devs the benefit of the doubt here. My concerns are that people who have poor hand-eye coordination (such as me, with my DUST514 k/d ratio of about 0/30, and usually losing due to running out of clones) will suffer from these changes. CCP Bayesian has promised that they are trying to remove the "twitch" element from this mini game.
In terms of expected income I can see many pilots getting upset about the cans they didn't get, rather than excited about the cans they did get. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy: you expect to get less loot, so you end up capturing fewer cans. I would highly recommend keeping records of what loot you score from every exploration site you run, this way you won't fall victim to selection bias or false memory.
Now can anyone tell me where to find these presentations on Twitch.tv? I come up empty looking for ccpgames, and there are far to many results for EVE Online :/ Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
78
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
This isn't rewarding people who bring a friend, it's rewarding people with alts. Splitting isk with someone else is always a distasteful prospect for EVE players, and even losing personal profits as compared to doing it solo (you might both try to click on the same can, not as many slow-flying cans that are easy to grab) is just bad design. Even if you only manage to loot 50% as fast on your second account, that's still far greater isk/hr than looting at 75-90% of what you could do solo if you bring along a friend.
Given that most people are greedy and are all looking at that profit margin, I fail to see how this system does anything than force a gimmick clickfest minigame between several accounts/monitors |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
402
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:40:00 -
[262] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense. The purpose is to provide interaction through reaching out and touching, just like CCP Soundwave told us in his presentation about game design principles. So rather than sit there with modules cycling so we can simply open a can and take the loot, we are presented with a puzzle to solve: where do you sit yourself so that you can collect the greatest number of cans? If you have two people you theoretically double your chances since you can cover twice as much space. This is how teamwork/alts will be rewarded. It is like placing fielders in a game of cricket or baseball.
I swear there's a game on Facebook where the object of the game is to grab as many shiny things as possible in a limited amount of time.
And before the internet, or hell before the PC, I used to play jacks. None of these really seem to tie into exploration.
I do feel this is a step in the right direction. The only thing I have a question on is the way in which the rewards are presented. Is this really the best way that was devised? Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
148
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:44:00 -
[263] - Quote
Reluctant to even participate in this discussion as so much is speculation but I certainly have to wonder about a few things:
1) What will make a null sec sites > low sec sites > high sec sites both harder and more rewarding? Obviously I understand that just being in null/low is more dangerous due to other players but by removing rats then any covops or T3 interdicted-nullified ships will just do any of these sites easily now. The difficulty of rats before made running these sites in a solo scanning ship by itself impossible in lower security systems. That seems all gone now. So while the loot rewards should scale as they do now in lower sec status systems how does that balance with difficulty to complete the site as it doesn't require the player to have higher skills (ie in a better ship/ships) to deal with the rats? There is just something with this that seems...well not quite right. Seems unbalanced.
2) So that said, is it then the mini-game that's harder in low sec and really hard in null sec? That sounds a bit....meh. Plus if your encouraging group play...only one person can participate in the mini game?....the rest sit around and wait for you to finish the game...well that's boring. Yes I know they have other chores like looking out for enemy pilots but...they'll have to be sitting at the site to help grab cans so they are just sitting their scanning...so....they can' even be sitting in other systems watching gates or something. So their SOLE purpose of coming along is to grab cans and PvP as required I guess?
3) Where is the progression? So if stuff in null sec can be done with a fairly low skilled covops character how do player benefit from investing in skill points and better ships to run harder sites? Null sec is surprisingly empty and safe but people flying their combat ships to complete the sites currently make for at least some fun opportunities. Now all there is a covops to run the sites? Bleh. It all seems way to easy. And frankly, making a hard mini-game sounds equally annoying.
Will certainly wait and see, hopefully all this will be addressed in the dev blog. |
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CCP Bayesian
647
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:44:00 -
[264] - Quote
Mara Rinn, something like kill mails but for exploration is something we talked about. Ditto for mining operations. Information that you can directly compare with your past performance and other peoples performance. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1788
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:45:00 -
[265] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense. The purpose is to provide interaction through reaching out and touching, just like CCP Soundwave told us in his presentation about game design principles. So rather than sit there with modules cycling so we can simply open a can and take the loot, we are presented with a puzzle to solve: where do you sit yourself so that you can collect the greatest number of cans? If you have two people you theoretically double your chances since you can cover twice as much space. This is how teamwork/alts will be rewarded. It is like placing fielders in a game of cricket or baseball. I swear there's a game on Facebook where the object of the game is to grab as many shiny things as possible in a limited amount of time. And before the internet, or hell before the PC, I used to play jacks. None of these really seem to tie into exploration. I do feel this is a step in the right direction. The only thing I have a question on is the way in which the rewards are presented. Is this really the best way that was devised? We can always try and figure out something better. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:46:00 -
[266] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:[quote=Michael Harari] Now can anyone tell me where to find these presentations on Twitch.tv? I come up empty looking for ccpgames, and there are far to many results for EVE Online :/ The EVE Keynote. (The exploration concrete part can starts near the 1 hour mark.)
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Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
56
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:47:00 -
[267] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:This is 11 pages and I haven't caught everything, but can someone explain the purpose of the loot just spilling and floating away? It makes zero sense. The purpose is to provide interaction through reaching out and touching, just like CCP Soundwave told us in his presentation about game design principles. So rather than sit there with modules cycling so we can simply open a can and take the loot, we are presented with a puzzle to solve: where do you sit yourself so that you can collect the greatest number of cans? If you have two people you theoretically double your chances since you can cover twice as much space. This is how teamwork/alts will be rewarded. It is like placing fielders in a game of cricket or baseball.
As it is it's already annoying to navigate around collidable objects and hope to be able to align out in time when someone warps in... (I'm looking at you, hollow asteroid). Exploration is challenging enough as it is in hostile space. Sites already despawn if you are forced out after activating a module on a can.
To present this new mechanic as a novel opportunity for emergent ganking is rather silly, exploration sites are already camped at present (I should know because I tend to do that).
While I can imagine that exploration must be absurdly boring in high sec, I figured the basic premise here was that explorers by their very nature will venture beyond the safety of empire space, where you would need no mini-game to be entertained as there are more elements at play than just you, your hacking skill and a floating can. |
Lost True
Paradise project
2124
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:49:00 -
[268] - Quote
Destoya wrote:This isn't rewarding people who bring a friend, it's rewarding people with alts. Splitting isk with someone else is always a distasteful prospect for EVE players, and even losing personal profits as compared to doing it solo (you might both try to click on the same can, not as many slow-flying cans that are easy to grab) is just bad design. Even if you only manage to loot 50% as fast on your second account, that's still far greater isk/hr than looting at 75-90% of what you could do solo if you bring along a friend.
Given that most people are greedy and are all looking at that profit margin, I fail to see how this system does anything than force a gimmick clickfest minigame between several accounts/monitors Alts? I think the good thing about it is that it's hard to do it with alts...
I think it's a very healthy way to encourage the group play: when you can do it solo, and you're not losing anything by inviting someone else who just a good guy... Then why not to do it? Even for free... Or, if you want, for asking this person to do something for you in his "profession". in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
402
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:50:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Mara Rinn, something like kill mails but for exploration is something we talked about. Ditto for mining operations. Information that you can directly compare with your past performance and other peoples performance.
I'd like to see logi on killmails before anything else. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
402
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:52:00 -
[270] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: We can always try and figure out something better.
I wonder if there's a thread in F&I.
Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
|
Xavier Quo
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
46
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:55:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Solkara Starlock wrote:Even if the loot will be equal.
People will not care about the can they could catch, but be sorry about those they couldn't. You'll probably have more players angry and disliking this part of the game. I doubt they will be calling on their friends to go can hunting. They will call upon their friends to go ship hunting or so.
Somehow this feels like giving solo players a bad feeling about playing solo. That's why it feels like forcing group play. I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river.
hmm, not really. If some fish were hollow and some filled with gold you'd feel very differently about those missed fish. And most of the time you can't see the fish in the river. |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
402
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 16:57:00 -
[272] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:]
I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river.
I would grab a stick of dynamite and kill all the fish. Then take my sweet time collecting each fish while smoking a cigar and finishing off a bottle of Jack. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
149
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:01:00 -
[273] - Quote
Lost True wrote:[quote=Destoya]This isn't rewarding people who bring a friend, it's rewarding people with alts. Splitting isk with someone else is always a distasteful prospect for EVE players, and even losing personal profits as compared to doing it solo (you might both try to click on the same can, not as many slow-flying cans that are easy to grab) is just bad design. Even if you only manage to loot 50% as fast on your second account, that's still far greater isk/hr than looting at 75-90% of what you could do solo if you bring along a friend.
Given that most people are greedy and are all looking at that profit margin, I fail to see how this system does anything than force a gimmick clickfest minigame between several accounts/monitors
I think this is partially true but I think there is a bit more to it.
I tend to prefer to run exploration sites and such on my own not only for the pure profit of it, but I'm also smart enough to realize that I could do more sites, safer, and overall probably make more with 3-4 friends (and our alts) in anoms, sigs, etc BUT it is such a pain to then collect up all the loot, salvage, etc etc and then when the opportunity arises...JF the stuff from many exploration trips out to high sec to sell. Ideally you sell it on sell orders to maximize profits and then remember who ran what sites, which loot with which trip and then divvy it all up fairly. There are of course different techniques to do all this..but its all a HUGE pain regardless. Just easier to do it yourself and not have to keep track of it all.
You don't see anyone soloing Incursions do you? I submit a big part of the attraction of incursions is the very simple, fair, and effective pay out system that reduces annoying time spent on doing logistics/selling stuff.
I hate to PVE but need isk....only reason why I do exploration. This system will retain the problem of cans going everywhere and the need to divvy up loot with a gang. You could say you keep the cans you get but that will really suck if you get the worthless Reactive Armor Hardener BPC and your but gets the 10 intact armor plates.
If CCP wants to make exploration more of a good group activity address this issue I think. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:03:00 -
[274] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote:While I can imagine that exploration must be absurdly boring in high sec, I figured the basic premise here was that explorers by their very nature will venture beyond the safety of empire space, where you would need no mini-game to be entertained as there are more elements at play than just you, your hacking skill and a floating can. That's wishful thinking at best. Sure, it happens that you are hunted and attacked while exploring or ratting, but if you would really log your activities you would quickly realize that for 90% or more of the time, you do it alone (or with your group) and without interference. And that is why game mechanics need to be fun in themselves, so EVE is also fun to play if no other players are about to help or kill you.
PvP in one form or another will always be the best thing in EVE, but that doesn't mean that the PvE part must not be enjoyable. Many people seem to think that fun PvE would harm PvP, but the opposite is the case. If PvE is more fun, then a lot of people will do it and expose themselves to PvP. (Although for that to really work the fun factor has to be higher outside of hisec.) . |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3323
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:14:00 -
[275] - Quote
Moneta Curran wrote:While I can imagine that exploration must be absurdly boring in high sec, I figured the basic premise here was that explorers by their very nature will venture beyond the safety of empire space, where you would need no mini-game to be entertained as there are more elements at play than just you, your hacking skill and a floating can.
That is my thinking on this matter too: exploration didn't need mini games to make it interesting. Hisec doesn't need to be more entertaining. The entertainment comes from other players: "Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences."
But let us look at all these principles of game design as elucidated to us by CCP Soundwave:
No game should be more complex than it absolutely needs to be to meet its goals. The hard part here is determining the goals. Was the goal of exploration mini games to make exploration more entertaining? That is a mistake: entertainment comes from interaction with other players. Was the goal to encourage interaction with other players? Let us assume that this is the goal since that is why we have been told. Will a number of "loot fountains" encourage interaction with others? Yes. Where some people will turn to alts, others will turn to other people.
A good feature can be based on positive or negative player interaction. This grab-the-cans feature fills this requirement: I can be in your site helping you gather, or collecting stuff for myself.
Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences. The modified hacking site means that other players might hang around when they see a hacking site is occupied. Hanging around is more likely to lead to interaction than running away. Do I communicate with you to arrange coordination and cooperation, or do I follow you around to steal your stuff?
Every system should affect, and be affected by, the wider world of the game. Now people will be hunting down explorers for the purpose of stealing cans. That is an alteration to previous behavior in the form of a new incentive,
Here are the tools, do something cool with them. More a new type of puzzle rather than a tool, but there are many ways to solve this puzzle. It is effectively a new tool.
The social experience is more important than practical system balance; the interaction between winners and losers is more interesting than mechanical equality. The mechanical equality of "you hack the can therefore you get the loot" leads to minimal interaction. In the current aystem you might bump me out of the way, pushing me out if hacking range while you complete the hack. In the new system you also have the opportunity to save time by letting me finish the hack.
Interactions should be about reaching and touching, more than reading numbers. This new looting system addresses this principle directly and literally.
Things in the world need to make sense. Let me think on this for a while. Having an ancient spaceship spew out interesting treasures when you crack open the door doesn't really make sense.
Players are not entitled to success. You can work harder/smarter to get more loot before the other guy.
In my case, I might solve the problem by dragging around a friend who is good at twitch games but doesn't have the hacking skills.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3323
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:16:00 -
[276] - Quote
Fereval Kondur wrote:Mara Rinn wrote: Now can anyone tell me where to find these presentations on Twitch.tv? I come up empty looking for ccpgames, and there are far to many results for EVE Online :/
The EVE Keynote. (The exploration in-dev shown part starts near the 1.02 hour mark.)
I was in the room for the keynote. I was thinking more about Round Table 3, 16:00 on Saturday, "Exploration" which I intended to go to but got bailed up by two new friends.
PS: twitch.tv doesn't use HTML5 video, it insists that I use that collection of vulnerabilities known as "Flash" to watch their videos on my iPad. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Lost True
Paradise project
2126
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:22:00 -
[277] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Lost True wrote:[quote=Destoya]This isn't rewarding people who bring a friend, it's rewarding people with alts. Splitting isk with someone else is always a distasteful prospect for EVE players, and even losing personal profits as compared to doing it solo (you might both try to click on the same can, not as many slow-flying cans that are easy to grab) is just bad design. Even if you only manage to loot 50% as fast on your second account, that's still far greater isk/hr than looting at 75-90% of what you could do solo if you bring along a friend.
Given that most people are greedy and are all looking at that profit margin, I fail to see how this system does anything than force a gimmick clickfest minigame between several accounts/monitors You don't see anyone soloing Incursions do you with alts?(well, at least I don't think there are?) I submit a big part of the attraction of incursions is the very simple, fair, and effective pay out system that reduces annoying time spent on doing logistics/selling stuff. (yes, there are other reasons but I'm focusing on this aspect) My former corp mate have lived solo in WH-6 and farmed anomalies :) It's not the same things. Incursions and WH are not so much about speed, it's about an investment an tactics. We don't know how exactly it'll be, but it's looks extreme to me to do those things with alts when you need to do it quickly with a single window - and i hope it will be so. in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
404
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:27:00 -
[278] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:While I can imagine that exploration must be absurdly boring in high sec, I figured the basic premise here was that explorers by their very nature will venture beyond the safety of empire space, where you would need no mini-game to be entertained as there are more elements at play than just you, your hacking skill and a floating can. That's wishful thinking at best. Sure, it happens that you are hunted and attacked while exploring or ratting, but if you would really log your activities you would quickly realize that for 90% or more of the time, you do it alone (or with your group) and without interference. And that is why game mechanics need to be fun in themselves, so EVE is also fun to play if no other players are about to help or kill you. PvP in one form or another will always be the best thing in EVE, but that doesn't mean that the PvE part must not be enjoyable. Many people seem to think that fun PvE would harm PvP, but the opposite is the case. If PvE is more fun, then a lot of people will do it and expose themselves to PvP. (Although for that to really work the fun factor has to be higher outside of hisec.)
When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.
98% of what I do in Eve is in a group.
There's no reason I can't have that 1% of the time to play the game and do something myself without needing to branch away from everyone. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1173
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:33:00 -
[279] - Quote
Some times the good folk in CCP have really silly ideas.
Hacking mini games and 'grab a can while you can' are examples of this.
Exploration is THE solo game-play in Eve.
Most of Eve is geared towards group play for better rewards. Leave exploration alone.
The problem is, that no matter how much folk laugh at the new exploration ideas, CCP will persist with them come hell or high water.
Will explorers now be known as 'twitchers'? This is not a signature. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
90
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:34:00 -
[280] - Quote
CCP Prime wrote:As it stands, you have containers bursting out in groups along an axis in a random direction.
It's not much of a chase, but more of a decision what is the optimal way to position your ship to recover the most of the loot. As for the assumption that this is twitched based gameplay, we'll see once it is on SISI and what the feedback will be. In the state it was demoed you have to invest ~4 seconds to get one can, meaning that once you've clicked it, you have ~4 seconds to choose what can to take next. Are you saying there is a minimum tractor time attached? Or is it simply time to tractor to 0m like it looked in the demo?
When I saw the demo, my initial thought was nano slasher flying through the cans in a pattern. Scrambling to pick up one can per server tick while adjusting camera to double click manually pilot to 0 on the next can, eliminating the tractor time. It also made me think "yeah 3 cans is good, 6 is the target, 7 is exceptional... players will get 10". This also potentially puts exploration in a cloaky dictor t3 at a disadvantage, relative to a covops due to speed/maneuverability.
This is where the "click fest" impression is coming from. If you simply want to prevent one player from getting it all, attach it to a module activation. Click mod, click 5 cans, those 5 get tractored, cycle time prevents more before the rest pop. That feels more "EvE-like". It's also less clunky than an arbitrary ~4 second tractor time regardless of range, which would eliminate need for excessive piloting (good thing).
CCP Bayesian wrote: I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river.
And just like Fishing, it makes you go "Damn it, there were so many fish, wish Frank didn't have to work today". It makes the player feel like he did something wrong when he did it solo. Because unlike real fishing, if he waits for Frank to get off work the fish are still in the same spot. If he goes fishing, all the other fish run away from their spot before Frank gets home.
CCP Bayesian wrote: It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.
We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.
I have no doubt the activity performed solo will result in solid isk/hr. I think just about everyone here gets that part. It's the above feeling of failure at the end that makes people cringe.
From a Co-op player standpoint if the site requires 3 people to get all the cans, I'll feel obliged to bookmark it and do something else for an hour while my buddies log in to optimize the opportunity the spawn presents for the corp.
Now that's not necessarily a bad thing either, it creates a conflict driver as I attempt to keep other people off the site in the mean time. But does it replace the rats in that respect? How long will the hacking game take? If the player spends a mere 2 minutes in the site, does that give ample time for conflict?
I would still rather see the hacking part take a significant amount of time. Bringing a second person along, to contribute in hacking, should then reduce that time by 75%. It should be better because you cover more territory and clear more content together than going after sites individually and in a safer manner. Not because the loot drops increase to scale with number of players. Especially from a hacking site, where you are essentially stealing secured information from a computer...from cans flying out an airlock. |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1788
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:37:00 -
[281] - Quote
Looked at that thread and somehow I did not find the words "Instead of having items explode out in space what the mechanic should be is..." But I do like the idea of exploration sites far out in the darkness, and exploration sites that escalate to new sites. However remember that soon after release all the answers will be on Eve Survival Guide.
If you do not like items exploding out into space, what do you want to see instead? And lets not say things like " it should not be a twitch game" or "it should be fun", lets have actual descriptions of the game mechanic. What happens? What does the player do? For example, right now the mechanic is "target can, activate module, wait for a successful cycle, loot". The new mechanic is "Solve mini game, wait for item spew, click on green items, fly after them if you get too far away".
Is there some other mechanic we would rather see? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1681
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:40:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Mara Rinn, something like kill mails but for exploration is something we talked about. Ditto for mining operations. Information that you can directly compare with your past performance and other peoples performance.
if you are doing this, think about unifying this with all the other scattered statistics. For example the epic arc journal and stuff. I am sure many explorers would like to know when they found all the different sites/escalations and stuff. So much potential to make the journal far more interesting.
edit: for example the combat log should really be in the journal not in the char sheet. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
405
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 17:53:00 -
[283] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Looked at that thread and somehow I did not find the words "Instead of having items explode out in space what the mechanic should be is..."
You need to keep reading the thread. It's down the page a bit:
Quote:I'd like to see wrecks of caravans that early pioneers took and fell upon tragedy. Long dead colonies. Talocan sites. Dead rogue drone hives. Fleet graveyards. Random derelict ships.
You will not be able to bookmark the sites.
Many of the sites might lead you to another system, or another wormhole. You might have to go to a specific cosmos agent in empire and talk to them to get more information. They might lead you to yet another system. The price isn't having a pimped out ship, it's not killing rats. It's putting the pieces of the puzzle together and taking the time to figure out the mystery. you might find items or ships logs that are completely useless for weeks unitl another site references them and you think "aha! this makes sense I know what to do!"
I didn't see a huge problem with the current system of targetting and activating a module, however I do welcome the hacking interface.
The change I wanted the most when it came to the asthetics of the site was eliminating the jetcan. It's completely out of place.
After you hack a site, I see no reason for it to eject the loot. It make zero sense at all. Since when does a shipwreck just explode with stuff when it's hacked? This isn't NCIS. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:06:00 -
[284] - Quote
blink alt wrote:Sure I could come up with this perfect profile that makes it easy to multibox and keep all the isk for myself but that seems like too much work. Now on the other hand, if a professional site is dropping on average the same as it is now but you need to grab ALL the cans to get the same isk you would of got before then I think that will push me over the edge and just multibox it and screw being social
There's a balancing line which CCP needs to find between encouraging player interactions and supporting people who multibox. I totally understand that they don't want someone to be running 8+ accounts to "grab all the loots". They want social interactions. That's okay.
I multibox, and I've been using my 3-account team to run exploration sites for years. It's not excessive, and I do not use ISBoxer or any other program to do it. However, if the new loot mechanic punishes players like me by making that second or third account basically useless for the new exploration sites... ugh! I would be more likely to just close the account than try and get others to join my fleet.
I have little time to login and play EVE, and often just want to run off and do things solo (and by solo, I mean multiboxing). Please make the new mechanic -- the timer intervals which you have to grab loot -- friendly to the small scale, 2-4 account multiboxer. We're the backbone of the active exploration playerbase. |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
407
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:11:00 -
[285] - Quote
It shouldn't even require multiboxing.
I still think you may occasionally need backup. You may need someone to help. It shouldn't be a set variable though.
I shouldn't thing that just because I'm hacking in a C6 that I need somone or an alt to clear it first, but there may be a random time that I do.
I shouldn't need to have 3 people to explore a site that's been abondoned for centuries. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1789
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:32:00 -
[286] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:....
I didn't see a huge problem with the current system of targetting and activating a module, however I do welcome the hacking interface.
The change I wanted the most when it came to the asthetics of the site was eliminating the jetcan. It's completely out of place.
After you hack a site, I see no reason for it to eject the loot. It make zero sense at all. Since when does a shipwreck just explode with stuff when it's hacked? This isn't NCIS.
Im still missing something here. After I hack the site, what do you think I should be doing to move the items into my ship? They cannot just all move in automatically, there may not be room. If there is no diamond symbol in space indicating a container that I can take stuff from, what is there that tells me "this is a place that has stuff"? As for realism, on the first space station "Skylab" the astronauts routinely complained that whenever they opened a drawer all the items in it would go spewing all over the station. They called it the "Jack in the box effect".
http://www.artificial-gravity.com/Dissertation/2_1.htm
"Over-stuffed or poorly-packed containers have a jack-in-the-box effect when opened; to astronaut Ed Gibson, the Skylab film vault was a "snake pit"."
And that was inside the space station. Outside, in vacuum, the released air pressure would make the effect much stronger.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
407
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 18:39:00 -
[287] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Im still missing something here. After I hack the site, what do you think I should be doing to move the items into my ship? They cannot just all move in automatically, there may not be room. If there is no diamond symbol in space indicating a container that I can take stuff from, what is there that tells me "this is a place that has stuff"? As for realism, on the first space station "Skylab" the astronauts routinely complained that whenever they opened a drawer all the items in it would go spewing all over the station. They called it the "Jack in the box effect". http://www.artificial-gravity.com/Dissertation/2_1.htm"Over-stuffed or poorly-packed containers have a jack-in-the-box effect when opened; to astronaut Ed Gibson, the Skylab film vault was a "snake pit"." And that was inside the space station. Outside, in vacuum, the released air pressure would make the effect much stronger.
Why do the items need to be ejected in any sort?
You now have a hacking interface. After that you have a window with what you have. It doesn't need to be a physical can. This is a big stretch, so bear with me..
The stuff that's discovered inside the artifact should be shown as.. part of the artifact.
Also, comparing opening a drawer of loose stuff in the ISS isn't really comparable to finding data logs.
Suddenly the data bits become physical matter and start flying away at 1200m/s!
Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Danny Centauri
Huzzah Industries
77
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:03:00 -
[288] - Quote
Personally I really like the look of the new mechanic, including can ejection.
However, to stop the whiners why not make it a choice, so you can either take 3 cans worth of loot or risk it with your friends burst it all into space and grab more. EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players. |
None ofthe Above
545
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:19:00 -
[289] - Quote
The hacking mini-game and loot explosion are amusing mechanics.
But I worry that they will become deadly tedious in the long run.
I like the concept of enabling more Hacking, the idea of Hacking abandoned POSes might be a good place to apply this as well.
Opposition would help, automated defenses that would either kick you out or trigger a more hostile response if you fail.
High skill levels cutting through the task or revealing optimal paths could keep career explorers from quitting after a while.
High skill levels could also help minimize the "explosion" of loot perhaps. I hope you voted, you glorious but often apathetic bastards! STV working as intended; Pre-elections and Get out the Vote, room for improvement. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
686
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:23:00 -
[290] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote:Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.
every action in every game is a mini game. Moving your reticle to shoot a target in a shooter is an accuracy minigame, throwing a grenade at the proper trajectory is a minigame.
Fitting your ship properly is a minigame, hauling loot is a minigame, blah blah blah.
If you are inciting hacking should NOT have a minigame and you don't actually need skill to hack something, that's stupid. It should be the player that decides whether something gets hacked, not the level of your hacking skill.
The explosion of loot thing is odd, I hope getting a small amount of the loot is worth it if you can't get all of it. |
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Xonus Calimar
CaeIum Incognitum
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:30:00 -
[291] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote: I would still rather see the hacking part take a significant amount of time. Bringing a second person along, to contribute in hacking, should then reduce that time by 75%. It should be better because you cover more territory and clear more content together than going after sites individually and in a safer manner. Not because the loot drops increase to scale with number of players. Especially from a hacking site, where you are essentially stealing secured information from a computer...from cans flying out an airlock.
Just going by what I saw in the Fanfest demo, this seems fairly possible. It looks like you get a spattering of nodes, just start from wherever, and go from node to node without much guidance. If two people can start at once, or one join in midway, you can cover more ground.
Plus you can make the hacking open to anyone at the time, so you can beat someone to the punch, barf the loot, and take stuff while they are still in the hacking screen. |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:36:00 -
[292] - Quote
I like the changes to exploration but what I dont like is things flying from cans and not catching them, like others have said a sense of failure will surley be on my shoulders. Bring friends you say, well thats not always doable for many reasons mine being I simply dont want to, I like being solo when exploring cause it adds to the thrill of it all. I understand this is a mmo but I dont need to socialize with you to interact with you, there is a difference. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3323
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:39:00 -
[293] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:But I worry that they will become deadly tedious in the long run.
That is my primary concern, very closely followed by, "ejecting cans into space? Really?" But I am trying to find a way of telling CCP that I don't like the idea without coming across as a rapid forum poster. It comes down to ejecting cans into space not making sense to me, but I just can't figure why it doesn't make sense when FTL travel, transfer if consciousness from an expiring body to a fresh one, and spooky action at a distance don't phase me at all.
For the moment I am just going to enjoy my vacation then think about the new hacking mini game when it arrives in Odyssey.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Haulie Berry
559
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:43:00 -
[294] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Drunken Bum wrote:Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games. every action in every game is a mini game. Moving your reticle to shoot a target in a shooter is an accuracy minigame, throwing a grenade at the proper trajectory is a minigame. Fitting your ship properly is a minigame, hauling loot is a minigame, blah blah blah. If you are inciting hacking should NOT have a minigame and you don't actually need skill to hack something, that's stupid. It should be the player that decides whether something gets hacked, not the level of your hacking skill. The explosion of loot thing is odd, I hope getting a small amount of the loot is worth it if you can't get all of it.
I think the fundamental difference is the perceived degree of accuracy in the "minigame" emulating those particular actions.
When I aim a gun in a video game, it's a relatively close approximation (or virtualizaiton) of aiming a real gun. You have a target, you have crosshairs, you place the crosshairs on the target, you "pull" the trigger, and it all maps together in a fairly intuitive fashion, despite the fact that you're controlling the process with a digital controller instead of physically aiming a real gun. As a result, it doesn't have the same feeling that other "mini games" have, where completing one task successfully triggers an event that isn't mapped in an intuitive fashion to the minigame.
It's easy to emulate firing a gun in an intuitive fashion. Hacking/lockpicking/other frequently "mini-gamed" activities, less so. Real lock-picking, for instance, is a completely tactile activity (at least for your standard pin-tumbler lock) - you feel which pin is obstructing the cylinder, and you feel the cylinder shift ever-so-slightly when you nudge that pin up to the shear line. This isn't really a process that translates well to a strictly audio/visual medium, so you end up with, e.g., Fallout/Skyrim lockpicking minigames that recreate what a person would imagine picking a lock would *look* like, but don't actually bear any resemblance (not even a digital, virtualized resemblance) to the actual activity.
|
Mercedes Chance
GDC Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:56:00 -
[295] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote:Mini-games. I ******* knew they'd turn to mini games. I hate mini games.
Yeah I am not cised for this part. The lockpick and hack mini-games of Fallout 3 were annoying but at least they were fairly quick to blow through and game time was frozen when you did it. In EVE I don't like being "blind" for that long, no matter where I am at, even in a Dungeon. The exploding cargo bay I get from an aesthetic sense, but the red/green flash, short lifespan deal I am also not liking. I popped the can, explosive decompression scattered them, cool. But its not like some fitting is gonna magically disintegrate once exposed to the void of space, technically it would be the opposite. |
Lucas Irvam
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:15:00 -
[296] - Quote
I've skimmed the thread but haven't read every post, so forgive me if it's already been covered, but how would 'bringing a friend' to help gather in the containers lead to more profit? If hacking a site flings 10 containers out into space, and I can only grab 5 by myself, I get half of what the full site was worth. If I bring a friend and we both grab 5, we've gathered the full worth of the site, but then I have to split the ISK with my friend, bringing me back to half of the site's total worth.
And that's best case scenario for the math, no? If hacking a site flings 6 containers, I grab 5 and my friend grabs the 6th, I've basically cost myself 2 containers worth of ISK by bringing along a buddy.
Again, apologies if it's been covered already, but I read a few replies that mention 'bringing a friend to get the most out of the site', and I feel like I'm missing something.
(Also, while I'm here: hacking interface is interesting, the gathering minigame seems like a weird Space Fruit Ninja addition totally out of place with the rest of the game, and no rats in profession sites is a head-scratcher.) |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:17:00 -
[297] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.
98% of what I do in Eve is in a group. That's a tired old argument: EVE pve must not be fun because we have so much fun with ourselves on comms. Sure, even an evening of toilet-scrubbing can be a great time if you do it together with your best friends. Does that mean that toilet-scrubbing is fun?
EVE pve is toilet-scrubbing with friends. I'd rather have canyon-rafting with friends.
. |
Rytell Tybat
Kallocain Pharmaceuticals
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:18:00 -
[298] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on.
Really excited about this feature. Looks very promising, not just in its first release but potentially in further iterations. Couple questions tho...
Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game.
There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise.
Keep up the good work! |
Mercedes Chance
GDC Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:19:00 -
[299] - Quote
Sorcha Lothain wrote:Dring Dingle wrote:Tbh... I half expected the pick a lock from skyrim Nice. They would have to add blueprints, so people could make them and sell them at a million ISK each. I guess they could also add horse armor that you would have to buy with real money.......oh wait.
Screwdriver, bobby pin . . . SNAP! |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
409
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:22:00 -
[300] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.
98% of what I do in Eve is in a group. That's a tired old argument: EVE pve must not be fun because we have so much fun with ourselves on comms. Sure, even an evening of toilet-scrubbing can be a great time if you do it together with your best friends. Does that mean that toilet-scrubbing is fun? EVE pve is toilet-scrubbing with friends. I'd rather have canyon-rafting with friends. No, in fleets, not just on comms.
I figured that was pretty clear, but if not.. we don't do much solo. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
|
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 20:40:00 -
[301] - Quote
Lucas Irvam wrote:I've skimmed the thread but haven't read every post, so forgive me if it's already been covered, but how would 'bringing a friend' to help gather in the containers lead to more profit? If hacking a site flings 10 containers out into space, and I can only grab 5 by myself, I get half of what the full site was worth. If I bring a friend and we both grab 5, we've gathered the full worth of the site, but then I have to split the ISK with my friend, bringing me back to half of the site's total worth.
And that's best case scenario for the math, no? If hacking a site flings 6 containers, I grab 5 and my friend grabs the 6th, I've basically cost myself 2 containers worth of ISK by bringing along a buddy.
Again, apologies if it's been covered already, but I read a few replies that mention 'bringing a friend to get the most out of the site', and I feel like I'm missing something.
(Also, while I'm here: hacking interface is interesting, the gathering minigame seems like a weird Space Fruit Ninja addition totally out of place with the rest of the game, and no rats in profession sites is a head-scratcher.)
That's what I've been saying about opportunity cost since like page 3. Everyone is approaching this from a completionist perspective instead of an economic one, so they feel like alts or friends are necessary. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 21:36:00 -
[302] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote: No, in fleets, not just on comms.
I figured that was pretty clear, but if not.. we don't do much solo.
Duly noted
Solo [CLDMN] = always bait. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 21:40:00 -
[303] - Quote
Garresh wrote: That's what I've been saying about opportunity cost since like page 3. Everyone is approaching this from a completionist perspective instead of an economic one, so they feel like alts or friends are necessary.
No, I'm approaching it from a game design perspective. Where succeeding at a task in an entertainment product is supposed to convey a sense of accomplishment and make the end user feel good about it.
That entails far more than "Ok, I played an hour now, what's the estimated ISK value of my cargo?". |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
148
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 21:57:00 -
[304] - Quote
Did everyone miss the Fanfest video of the people there trying this feature? |
UKBigWolf
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 21:59:00 -
[305] - Quote
Not sure if this has been said already, but from the short clip shown at fanfest it seems to have simply gone from
Lock container, press a button and wait, then loot upon game telling you you've succeeded
to
open mini-game, click lots of dots until you hit target or mini-game boots you off, then 'tractor-beam' stuff to your cargo hold by randomly clicking and perhaps pressing another button...
Please please please say its not that simple, sure it looks fancy, but its basically a click fest of clicking through as fast as you can Needless to say, I'm hoping I'm missing something and will be straight on the test server when it hits |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
283
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 22:03:00 -
[306] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Did everyone miss the Fanfest video of the people there trying this feature? GOD WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO YOUR FACE!?!?! |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 22:05:00 -
[307] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Lucas Irvam wrote:I've skimmed the thread but haven't read every post, so forgive me if it's already been covered, but how would 'bringing a friend' to help gather in the containers lead to more profit? If hacking a site flings 10 containers out into space, and I can only grab 5 by myself, I get half of what the full site was worth. If I bring a friend and we both grab 5, we've gathered the full worth of the site, but then I have to split the ISK with my friend, bringing me back to half of the site's total worth.
And that's best case scenario for the math, no? If hacking a site flings 6 containers, I grab 5 and my friend grabs the 6th, I've basically cost myself 2 containers worth of ISK by bringing along a buddy.
Again, apologies if it's been covered already, but I read a few replies that mention 'bringing a friend to get the most out of the site', and I feel like I'm missing something.
(Also, while I'm here: hacking interface is interesting, the gathering minigame seems like a weird Space Fruit Ninja addition totally out of place with the rest of the game, and no rats in profession sites is a head-scratcher.) That's what I've been saying about opportunity cost since like page 3. Everyone is approaching this from a completionist perspective instead of an economic one, so they feel like alts or friends are necessary.
Oh I get exactly what your saying, getting 5 cans is the same as two ppl getting 10 and that in itself isnt the problem. It's the feeling of leaving something behind that ppl with a touch of OCD will go completely crazy over (see pg 1 and read all posts in this thread for a reference). Having a touch of OCD is what keeps alot of ppl in eve imo, invested to much to just leave it all behind so we stay. At any rate it's the feeling of failing at a task rather if you did or didnt that's getting ppl in a uproar and for what I ask? So ppl who never asked for group exploration can do so now? Not worth it imo. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Argus Greymoore
Something for Nothing
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 22:53:00 -
[308] - Quote
TL;DR: There doesn't seem to be an advantage to actually bringing more people to a hacking site. Instead, make the flying pi+¦ata cans move more slowly for each player ship beyond the first.
Okay gang, I've watched the relevant Twitch TV video segment, and read through the middle of page 13 of this thread. So unless the below suggestion has already been posted, or a dev has said something to affirm/counter the below, read for my opinion.
The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it".
As an example. Let's say for the sake of argument that CCP sets four flying pi+¦ata cans as the average that a player could scoop before the rest fly off into oblivion. Brining a second player, that person being an average player such as yourself, will only be able to grab an additional four cans. In the end, you've got the same loot you would have gotten if you or he/she hacked the site solo.
My solution? Make it such that for each player ship beyond the first within the vicinity of the hacking site slows the flying pi+¦ata cans down. Using my contrived example, that might mean both players can now scoop an additional can each, netting an extra 25% loot. If we need a role-play excuse, then let's say the combined mass of the two ships instead of one exerts a stronger gravitational pull on the pi+¦ata cans, thus slowing them down.
Now there's a real benefit to bringing a buddy with. Want to fly solo? Fine, you'll get the same loot you'd normally get. Fly with a buddy? Hey, you get 25% more than you'd normally get. This can scale with more pilots, but of course CCP would need to determine the upper limit, etc.
Playing devil's advocate, multi-boxers/accounts could probably see a small benefit. But then, if ISBox or a similar program can automate this process, they'll be getting a lot more than a single player would anyway. alt-tabbing between two account might be able to pick up a couple of extra pi+¦atas, if there truly is a four second average to clicking on cans and the person is reasonably adept at the process.
This gives some real teeth to the notion of bringing a buddy with. I mean, if I want to travel to low-sec where the sites are better, why bring anyone with me? Yeah, a second pair of eyes watching local, using the d-scanner is great, but if we know there's a better payoff for the additional risk, especially with rats gone in the hacking sites, there's a lot more incentive.
Anyway, if this has been mentioned as an idea since page 13, or subsequently shot down, please ignore. Or feel free to poke holes in it. Just my US$0.02.
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
149
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:07:00 -
[309] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Did everyone miss the Fanfest video of the people there trying this feature? GOD WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO YOUR FACE!?!?!
I thought of about 9000 ways to answer that and every one of them will get me a lifetime forum ban. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4821
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:54:00 -
[310] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Garresh wrote: That's what I've been saying about opportunity cost since like page 3. Everyone is approaching this from a completionist perspective instead of an economic one, so they feel like alts or friends are necessary.
No, I'm approaching it from a game design perspective. Where succeeding at a task in an entertainment product is supposed to convey a sense of accomplishment and make the end user feel good about it. That entails far more than "Ok, I played an hour now, what's the estimated ISK value of my cargo?". If you feel inadequate for not having grabbed every single container then that's not anybody's problem but yours. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4821
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 23:58:00 -
[311] - Quote
Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3330
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 00:08:00 -
[312] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout.
The benefit of bringing a friend is that you have an activity that you and your friend can do together. Bringing a friend makes mining and mission running infinitely more interesting. If the loot pi+¦ata mini game encourages more people to try exploration in a group with other players (i.e.: not multiboxing), I will consider this feature a success despite the lack of "makes sense" in the "ancient relic spews contents when opened."
Sure, there's the Skylab thing from a few pages back where astronauts complained that contents of drawers would spring out when the drawer was opened. One might expect that a future civilisation might have adjusted for stuff flying out of drawers in zero gravity, but then what happens after you get artificial gravity? Do you keep catering for zero gravity? Or do you take advantage of the availability of a gravity field to go back to stuffing drawers full of junk in order to conserve space?
So there. We've made sense. Now it's just a matter of not liking the mechanic. I will wait and see but I already know that when it comes to pointing and clicking at things moving on a screen, I suck. Hell, I can't even click the insertion cursor into the middle of a word in my word processor accurately.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
413
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 00:11:00 -
[313] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote: No, in fleets, not just on comms.
I figured that was pretty clear, but if not.. we don't do much solo.
Duly noted Solo [CLDMN] = always bait.
No matter what it is, it's always bait..
(And we always bite regardless) Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Argus Greymoore
Something for Nothing
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 00:16:00 -
[314] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout.
True enough. And while scanning a system faster is certainly a benefit, in the end, the loot is still the same. Sure you can move from system to system scanning a bit faster with two pilots, and ultimately the ISK an hour will be better, but I'd speculate on a very slim margin. Social interaction is great, and I'm all for that, but a large part of this thread is concerning the solo player.
How do you feel about improving the loot for 2 or more players, per my suggestion? I think that'd be a much greater incentive for the solo player to become more interactive with their fellow pod pilots. |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 01:25:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Solkara Starlock wrote:Even if the loot will be equal.
People will not care about the can they could catch, but be sorry about those they couldn't. You'll probably have more players angry and disliking this part of the game. I doubt they will be calling on their friends to go can hunting. They will call upon their friends to go ship hunting or so.
Somehow this feels like giving solo players a bad feeling about playing solo. That's why it feels like forcing group play. I guess there is an analogy with fishing in the real world. One rod only gets you so much no matter how many fish you see swim by and there is satisfaction at getting better at fishing and netting more fish. Bringing a friend along means you can near enough always get more fish so long as there are enough to catch by spreading out to cover more river.
and, if i use a net to get all the fish?
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 01:33:00 -
[316] - Quote
Too lazy to read the thread but isn't there an obvious way of making hacking and arch more interactive by increasing the payout per person.
Ie. you find a site solo, but there's a neut in local. If you did the site solo you'd get say 5 million isk alone. If you say to the neut "hey wanna run this site with me" and then you both get 10 million isk, by, I dont know, the AI seeing that two people are grabbing loot so the can spits out more loot after it detects multiple players at site?
This incentives interaction coz it means more profit per person. For the neut friend it's free money, for the explorer it's more money. Of course either could get ganked by the other so one gets all the extra loot, and there's your risk side of equation. But then you could persuade not to gank by saying you will find more explore sites for the neut, and it's even more free money to him, he wouldn't want to kill the goose laying golden eggs.
This could be solo coz play coz you don't have to marry the guy. Say you as an explorer ride into town, start finding free sites for the locals to cash in on. Then one day, you leave, never to be heard of again, off to explore new lands. The locals just remember the explorer who passed through town that weekend and then went off into the sunset. Looool.
But I've had fantasies about this exploration pve before and in the end the game mechanisms **** it all up and made it boring. But there is still a month before oddysey so make it happen please ccp.
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 02:03:00 -
[317] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout.
Right well is eve about
- synergetic alliances of convience with the ever lurking threat of betrayal, or - happy happy friendship time, lets all be best buds while we play
I mean, I think the former is more fitting with new Eden. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 02:55:00 -
[318] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:When I log into Eve, I join TS with my alliance. We fly in fleets together, we hunt targets together. We run sites, we do logistics. We troll people together.
98% of what I do in Eve is in a group. That's a tired old argument: EVE pve must not be fun because we have so much fun with ourselves on comms. Sure, even an evening of toilet-scrubbing can be a great time if you do it together with your best friends. Does that mean that toilet-scrubbing is fun? EVE pve is toilet-scrubbing with friends. I'd rather have canyon-rafting with friends.
Yea why is being on comms held up as the only way to interact? Huuuuh? Running a mission with someone is interaction. Negotaiating a bulk market deal with someone is interaction. White knighting a miner being ganked by ecm'ing the ganker is interaction. Being a pirate amd helping some faction warfare peeps blob their enemy is interaction. Going on team speak with corpmates and listening to them drone on about their tedious home life 5 nights a week while we mine is not eve interaction endgame. |
Lucas Irvam
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 03:47:00 -
[319] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Garresh wrote:Lucas Irvam wrote:I've skimmed the thread but haven't read every post, so forgive me if it's already been covered, but how would 'bringing a friend' to help gather in the containers lead to more profit? If hacking a site flings 10 containers out into space, and I can only grab 5 by myself, I get half of what the full site was worth. If I bring a friend and we both grab 5, we've gathered the full worth of the site, but then I have to split the ISK with my friend, bringing me back to half of the site's total worth.
And that's best case scenario for the math, no? If hacking a site flings 6 containers, I grab 5 and my friend grabs the 6th, I've basically cost myself 2 containers worth of ISK by bringing along a buddy.
Again, apologies if it's been covered already, but I read a few replies that mention 'bringing a friend to get the most out of the site', and I feel like I'm missing something.
(Also, while I'm here: hacking interface is interesting, the gathering minigame seems like a weird Space Fruit Ninja addition totally out of place with the rest of the game, and no rats in profession sites is a head-scratcher.) That's what I've been saying about opportunity cost since like page 3. Everyone is approaching this from a completionist perspective instead of an economic one, so they feel like alts or friends are necessary. Oh I get exactly what your saying, getting 5 cans is the same as two ppl getting 10 and that in itself isnt the problem. It's the feeling of leaving something behind that ppl with a touch of OCD will go completely crazy over (see pg 1 and read all posts in this thread for a reference). Having a touch of OCD is what keeps alot of ppl in eve imo, invested to much to just leave it all behind so we stay. At any rate it's the feeling of failing at a task rather if you did or didnt that's getting ppl in a uproar and for what I ask? So ppl who never asked for group exploration can do so now? Not worth it imo. E: As a matter of fact how many threads have you seen asking for blowout cans in exploration sites....don't worry I will wait for the answer. Now answer this, how many threads have you seen about the imbalance of level 4 missions? Threadnought after threadnought my friend, that's how many and yet it still is what it is. Now like I said I like the other changes done to exploration, they are indeed most welcome however I respectively ask CCP to revise this prototype mechanic of 'Pi+¦atas In Space'
It's funny, because I was only bringing up the 'opportunity cost' argument to point out flaws in CCP's notion that the hacksplosion could encourage explorers to bring along friends to help gather the containers. Garresh is using the argument to point out the flawed reasoning behind people complaining that they don't want to have to bring friends, and as far as I can tell, we're both right.
My point was that it's a silly mechanic that only encourages multiboxing, not true group play. I also agree with the folks who think that on a fundamental level, there's going to be something subconsciously annoying about leaving every profession site wondering what got away rather than feeling good about what you got. Not keyboard rage or anything, but a kind of 'someone tell me why this is in the game, again?' eye roll every time containers poof.
Obviously the sky isn't falling and I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that it is, but I don't think we're out of line to ask if CCP is fixing something that wasn't broken. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4826
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:22:00 -
[320] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout. Right well is eve about - synergetic alliances of convience with the ever lurking threat of betrayal, or - happy happy friendship time, lets all play with our buds I mean, I think the former is more fitting with new Eden. I don't see the point of bringing a friend just to bring a friend, with no material advantage to it. And? So what? |
|
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:30:00 -
[321] - Quote
I'm sifting through 15 pages. I want to say some things before I lose my thoughts.
* Did not like the "exploding loot mechanic" as I saw it. If the point was to make it impossible for single players to just "snatch it all up with one ship or "slow them down dramatically" then :
- Make it that cans fly out and spread out in space, needing lots of tractor beaming back to the ship, this would allow ninja looters to come and scoop it up, they'd get flags and even more pew-pew'ing MIGHT occur.
- Scramble Lock a bunch of the more important cans, requiring an ACTUAL hacking minigame back at a station. This minigame might even be so hard that it required attempts over multiple days in order to crack, with player skills points also playing an effect. You would even have players giving cans to other people to hack, and for the REALLY tough ones, you might even have people that are good at puzzles charging for unlocks as a business model. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:33:00 -
[322] - Quote
Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO.
This logic is solid. However, I should be able to bring a Noctis and snatch 8 things at once; unless this is also possible, then these are just arcade mechanics for the sake of annoying players. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4827
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:42:00 -
[323] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO. This logic is solid. However, I should be able to bring a Noctis and snatch 8 things at once; unless this is also possible, then these are just arcade mechanics for the sake of annoying players.
CCP Bayesian wrote:You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:53:00 -
[324] - Quote
ISK per hour and supposed operational costs are too small a view point from which to approach the current issues though not without all merit. One solid reason to approach providing feedback on the current issue from a design standpoint is to bring the very ideas that lead the team to attempt to implement these features into question in order to prevent future issues from arising such as catch and grab mining ore mini-games to vanishing loot vomiting PVP wrecks. Such features do not play out as logical extentions of piloting a ship in EVE. They have no place and run so strongly contrary to established mechanics as to destroy the integrity of play.
One of the primary reasons the multi-launch probe formation change netted such ringing approval was in that it removed tons of USELESS clicks and did so in such a way as to make the feature more GÇ£accessibleGÇ¥, efficient, and fun to use. If the same care was given to the rest of the UI from the overview on down the entire game would benefit becoming more GÇ£accessibleGÇ¥, efficient, fun to play, and the cheers on stage next year would be frightening.
Yet, here we have an exploration site mechanic that attempts to add more USELESS clicks and random chance in an effort to make it feel more active and involving or like an actual skill profession while failing miserably at the task for being shallow and out of place. There are so many better ways to address these concerns while remaining true to the core of the game. Several have been mentioned previously in thread. Now is the time to mention it and hopefully see a revaluation more fitting the nature of the game we play.
Simulations are not outdated nor an old school thing of the past to be discarded because we live in an age where the market is dominated by twitch, graphics, attention deficits, and the demand for instant reward. The simulation model at its core is one of the few things that differentiate the game from its competition. I understand the need to grow but this should be done while remaining true to yourself rather than discarding the core values that lead to current success. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1790
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:55:00 -
[325] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO. This logic is solid. However, I should be able to bring a Noctis and snatch 8 things at once; unless this is also possible, then these are just arcade mechanics for the sake of annoying players. CCP Bayesian wrote:You can use the tractor beam module to pull cans that are out of range closer or fly out to them. But only if they are green. Once you grab a can the others turn red for a short period. Thats the odd mechanic. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 06:02:00 -
[326] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote: Simulations are not outdated nor an old school thing of the past to be discarded because we live in an age where the market is dominated by twitch, graphics, attention deficits, and the demand for instant reward. The simulation model at its core is one of the few things that differentiate the game from its competition. I understand the need to grow but this should be done while remaining true to yourself rather than discarding the core values that lead to current success.
As a UK based home astronomer ( star gazer) the quality of the simulation and depth of immersion was what really drew me to and has sustained me in Eve. No frustrating cloudy nights and freezing cold head as i tried to view deep space objects. Proudly sitting in my hulk and mining whilst sipping a whiskey and listening to the space soundtracks was strangely profound and very satisfying. Exploration sites once reached were similarly attractive.
Im really not happy about the direction is all going, particularly the anti solo culture in CCP and injection of distractions for those with short attention spans. BUT i m only reading others posts so far.
HOWEVER can someone with direct first hand knowledge confirm the following for me - ODYSSEY will allow a cloaky solo to explore higher reward null sec sites without any rats or rat aggro?????
If this is the case , then the Lord truely has taken away with one hand but given back with the other and I'm grateful.
Somewhere in Iceland - Dev makes memo - " complete Odyssey update by removing cloak from cloak ships"
Aaaargh :(.
|
Virtutis Sahasranama
Interstellar Hollistic Agency S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 06:11:00 -
[327] - Quote
At the present stage, whenever I take a ship into unfriendly territory and cloak to avoid people while running a site, the site despawns. Now this mechanic is not intuitive - nor does it explain anywhere that this occurs. It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
The first time it did this, I lodged a ticket suggesting there was a bug. The second time I went searching google and found a random thread with no dev posts saying that this "Was normal".
Is this kind of despawning being fixed in Odyssey? Can the despawn mechanics be better broadcast to the player? I also lost sites as I had partially completed a site, warped away to get a better ship only to warp back and find the site gone as well.
the point is none of these mechanics are intuitive, or explained anywhere inside the game, and finding the answers is not as easy either. What is worse is that to a new player they play like bugs, or unintentional events, hence me logging that first ticket.
Considering that this expansion is all about the exploration and revamping a lot of these mechanics, a better way to communicate site despawns would be good - and if you are intending on making it more dangerous to run these sites from a PvP perspective, the disappearing 30 seconds after cloaking is a bit silly. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 06:28:00 -
[328] - Quote
Virtutis Sahasranama wrote:At the present stage, whenever I take a ship into unfriendly territory and cloak to avoid people while running a site, the site despawns. Now this mechanic is not intuitive - nor does it explain anywhere that this occurs. It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
The first time it did this, I lodged a ticket suggesting there was a bug. The second time I went searching google and found a random thread with no dev posts saying that this "Was normal".
Is this kind of despawning being fixed in Odyssey? Can the despawn mechanics be better broadcast to the player? I also lost sites as I had partially completed a site, warped away to get a better ship only to warp back and find the site gone as well.
the point is none of these mechanics are intuitive, or explained anywhere inside the game, and finding the answers is not as easy either. What is worse is that to a new player they play like bugs, or unintentional events, hence me logging that first ticket.
Considering that this expansion is all about the exploration and revamping a lot of these mechanics, a better way to communicate site despawns would be good - and if you are intending on making it more dangerous to run these sites from a PvP perspective, the disappearing 30 seconds after cloaking is a bit silly.
Very good point and a very frustrating and needless mechanic. Hiding whilst a gang pass through only to see your hard found site despawn takes some swallowing. The new breed of lightweight explorers is not going to be able to handle it either. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 06:36:00 -
[329] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I'm sifting through 15 pages. I want to say some things before I lose my thoughts.
* Did not like the "exploding loot mechanic" as I saw it. If the point was to make it impossible for single players to just "snatch it all up with one ship or "slow them down dramatically" then :
- Make it that cans fly out and spread out in space, needing lots of tractor beaming back to the ship, this would allow ninja looters to come and scoop it up, they'd get flags and even more pew-pew'ing MIGHT occur.
- Scramble Lock a bunch of the more important cans, requiring an ACTUAL hacking minigame back at a station. This minigame might even be so hard that it required attempts over multiple days in order to crack, with player skills points also playing an effect. You would even have players giving cans to other people to hack, and for the REALLY tough ones, you might even have people that are good at puzzles charging for unlocks as a business model.
I don't give a **** about the loot pinata but the idea of locked ultra-value containers that might need to be cracked later on sounds kind of awesome...maybe not as part of this iteration but a nice idea for down the road. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
64
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 07:29:00 -
[330] - Quote
I've been thinking a bit more about the Loot Barf and having multiple players there, I can only see having multiple players being there as having a result of reducing the ISK/Hour/Player. With 2 Players, You may get lucky and not click on each others loot, although I'm pretty sure that there will most likely be 1 or 2 that both players click on. Thus making it if 1 player can click on 5/10 loot items, does not mean that 2 players will get 10/10 loot items, the most likely is either 8/10 or 9/10 if lucky, and most probably going down the more players you have. Thus working from averages and making the math easy, lets just say the average is that every loot has 1M ISK worth in it. 1 Player can get 5M 2 Players can get 8 to 9M (thus each player getting 4M to 4.5M each) More Players even less per player(numbers are completely arbitrary)
I would prefer to balance on time instead of items. If you jettison the cargo/loot so that it eventually filled a cone of space 100Km tall and 70Km radius from the Hacking location, with cans flying at 5Km/s at beginning and then slowing down as they get further out, then a few players will complete the site faster and thus move onto other sites, whilst the solo player would still be picking up cans.(numbers can be changed for balancing) |
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
430
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 08:30:00 -
[331] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Virtutis Sahasranama wrote:At the present stage, whenever I take a ship into unfriendly territory and cloak to avoid people while running a site, the site despawns. Now this mechanic is not intuitive - nor does it explain anywhere that this occurs. It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
The first time it did this, I lodged a ticket suggesting there was a bug. The second time I went searching google and found a random thread with no dev posts saying that this "Was normal".
Is this kind of despawning being fixed in Odyssey? Can the despawn mechanics be better broadcast to the player? I also lost sites as I had partially completed a site, warped away to get a better ship only to warp back and find the site gone as well.
the point is none of these mechanics are intuitive, or explained anywhere inside the game, and finding the answers is not as easy either. What is worse is that to a new player they play like bugs, or unintentional events, hence me logging that first ticket.
Considering that this expansion is all about the exploration and revamping a lot of these mechanics, a better way to communicate site despawns would be good - and if you are intending on making it more dangerous to run these sites from a PvP perspective, the disappearing 30 seconds after cloaking is a bit silly. Very good point and a very frustrating and needless mechanic. Hiding whilst a gang pass through only to see your hard found site despawn takes some swallowing. The new breed of lightweight explorers is not going to be able to handle it either. The reason this is so is that afk cloakers used to sit in completed sites in their enemies' space to stop them from despawning and respawning elsewhere. . |
Myriad Blaze
46
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:00:00 -
[332] - Quote
Regarding the minigame I believe it can be fun and I'm looking forward to try it out. It reminds me a bit of Paradroid (old C64 game - some people might remember it), which I loved.
Regarding the "loot spew mechanics" I believe it will be unfun for several reasons:
1. The psychological factor Currently, if I hack a site, I will get what is inside. If it's empty or the contains are not really valuable it's more or less ok, because I know that there was nothing else to be found in that place. With the new mechanic I will get some stuff but regardless how good it is, I'll always wonder if one of the containers I didn't catch contained the real gem. I believe most people will worry about the stuff they couldn't get, more that they are satisfied with what they got.
2. The twitch game factor Some people aren't actually good at twitch games. It seems the new mechanics will reward people with a good hand-eye coordination and will put other people at a disadvantage (note: this is not a question of isk/hr or risk/reward ... the quicker person will always get more).
3. The immersion factor / realism While EvE Online is a fantasy game it's still based somewhat on sience and logic. And it makes no sense at all, that every ship wreck in space is under pressure no matter how old it is supposed to be. And why shouldn't I drill a hole into the wreck to depressurize it before I hack it, to open it? Or what about installing a net to catch all the stuff - or would a net be too high-tech? And when a wreck "explodes" every time I open it anyway, why bother using a hacking tool when I have guns? I admit it could be much worse ... like having an animated loot fairy looking like Rosie O'Donnell fly in, wildly flapping her wings and present the loot in a wrapped giftbox with a nice ribbon on top.
4. The solo/group play factor I understand that one of the reasons for the change is to entice people to explore in groups. But currently it seems we have 1 person that explores like he used to, and a 2nd person waiting to catch some cans now and then and trying not to die of boredom. Tbh I always considered exploring to be meant being a solo-activitiy in EvE. There are enough interesting activities that require multiple people ot that give a huge benefit for bringing friends. So if friends are online and we intend to do some group stuff I cannot really see us going exploring - not now, not then.
Btw, someone came up with the idea to add cans that need to ba hacked later (at a station?). I believe that's an idea that should be pursued.
|
|
CCP Bayesian
664
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:00:00 -
[333] - Quote
Rytell Tybat wrote:Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game. There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise. Keep up the good work!
Ultimately we want to keep things simple for the first release which is why the hacking is explicitly single-player. This not only lets us concentrate on getting the hacking right in that context but lets us fit it into the timeframe in which we want to get it out in front of you guys which has got to be the first step. I had lots of people at Fanfest saying they want to play this cooperatively and competitively. Future iteration is definitely the plan though. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
marVLs
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:04:00 -
[334] - Quote
If oddysey is about exploration then it should have a lot more content, more types of sites, something new etc not only redone mag and radar sites... |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:10:00 -
[335] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Zen Dad wrote:Virtutis Sahasranama wrote:At the present stage, whenever I take a ship into unfriendly territory and cloak to avoid people while running a site, the site despawns. Now this mechanic is not intuitive - nor does it explain anywhere that this occurs. It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
The first time it did this, I lodged a ticket suggesting there was a bug. The second time I went searching google and found a random thread with no dev posts saying that this "Was normal".
Is this kind of despawning being fixed in Odyssey? Can the despawn mechanics be better broadcast to the player? I also lost sites as I had partially completed a site, warped away to get a better ship only to warp back and find the site gone as well.
the point is none of these mechanics are intuitive, or explained anywhere inside the game, and finding the answers is not as easy either. What is worse is that to a new player they play like bugs, or unintentional events, hence me logging that first ticket.
Considering that this expansion is all about the exploration and revamping a lot of these mechanics, a better way to communicate site despawns would be good - and if you are intending on making it more dangerous to run these sites from a PvP perspective, the disappearing 30 seconds after cloaking is a bit silly. Very good point and a very frustrating and needless mechanic. Hiding whilst a gang pass through only to see your hard found site despawn takes some swallowing. The new breed of lightweight explorers is not going to be able to handle it either. The reason this is so is that afk cloakers used to sit in completed sites in their enemies' space to stop them from despawning and respawning elsewhere.
So seems to have been a knee jerk overreaction to benefit pretty advanced players in null sec. Suggest a happy medium between the NO despawn and almost instant despawn - say 5 mins to allow some protection and keeo the sites alive for the masses.... |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2450
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:15:00 -
[336] - Quote
ITT:The sky is falling! |
|
CCP Bayesian
664
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:49:00 -
[337] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:HOWEVER can someone with direct first hand knowledge confirm the following for me - ODYSSEY will allow a cloaky solo to explore higher reward null sec sites without any rats or rat aggro?
If this is the case , then the Lord truely has taken away with one hand but given back with the other and I'm grateful- i think.
( Meanwhile - Somewhere deep in the CCP HQ in Iceland - Dev sends memo - " complete Odyssey update by removing cloak from cloak ships")
*stops typing memo and looks over shoulder* ;)
More seriously, yes I think that will be one result. I'll let our content designer tell you more though and I think it involves thinking hard about the cloaking stuff mentioned just above. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Malla Nkomi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:51:00 -
[338] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Ultimately we want to keep things simple for the first release which is why the hacking is explicitly single-player. This not only lets us concentrate on getting the hacking right in that context but lets us fit it into the timeframe in which we want to get it out in front of you guys which has got to be the first step. I had lots of people at Fanfest saying they want to play this cooperatively and competitively. Future iteration is definitely the plan though.
What incentive is there for an alliance to install upgrades for these? I'm one of the team who would have to put forward the business case for the project to procure, ship and deploy these; a project with significant time and resource commitment in an environment with chaotic redistribution of income due to other changes. With no way for an alliance to track usage (no unique rat bounties showing up on corp apis), no alliance or corp revenue generated, and no obvious strategic advantage from yet another minor income source for a few individuals why would we install the ihub upgrades for these?
It might be fun, but we won't know who is using it, how often and what income is derived, so its highly unlikely we are going to roll these out. Your design effort is going to be largely wasted if you can't give me the ammunition to sell it.
EVE is serious business, don't you know. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:53:00 -
[339] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Argus Greymoore wrote:The dev giving the demo mention to "bring a friend" to scoop the loot pi+¦ata cans that couldn't otherwise be grabbed by a single player, but I can't see the benefit in this. If they've tuned it to look for a solo player using the new system to be the same as the existing system, then two times the loot split between two players nets you the same loot you would get by just doing it yourself. The only benefit is abating the feeling of "there was extra loot to scoop but I couldn't get it". No, the benefit is that you have a friend doing sites with you (added social interaction, probably other percs such as scanning systems faster) and that bringing them along doesn't reduce your payout. Right well is eve about - synergetic alliances of convience with the ever lurking threat of betrayal, or - happy happy friendship time, lets all play with our buds I mean, I think the former is more fitting with new Eden. I don't see the point of bringing a friend just to bring a friend, with no material advantage to it. And? So what?
And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already. |
|
CCP Bayesian
664
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:55:00 -
[340] - Quote
Malla Nkomi wrote:What incentive is there for an alliance to install upgrades for these? I'm one of the team who would have to put forward the business case for the project to procure, ship and deploy these; a project with significant time and resource commitment in an environment with chaotic redistribution of income due to other changes. With no way for an alliance to track usage (no unique rat bounties showing up on corp apis), no alliance or corp revenue generated, and no obvious strategic advantage from yet another minor income source for a few individuals over other income sources?
It might be fun, but we won't know who is using it, how often and what income is derived.
EVE is serious business.
I don't know if you saw the keynote where CCP Seagull was talking about Instigators and Enablers? We definitely want to empower people like yourself to make these sorts of decisions. This means providing you with more data and CREST our new third-party API platform is one of the means to doing that. This is bigger than just the exploration feature though and CREST is not yet user-facing so there are a couple of hurdles in the way but we're moving towards this ideal pretty quickly. Exposing data then becomes much more straightforward. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 09:58:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Rytell Tybat wrote:Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game. There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise. Keep up the good work! Ultimately we want to keep things simple for the first release which is why the hacking is explicitly single-player. This not only lets us concentrate on getting the hacking right in that context but lets us fit it into the timeframe in which we want to get it out in front of you guys which has got to be the first step. I had lots of people at Fanfest saying they want to play this cooperatively and competitively. Future iteration is definitely the plan though.
Hi,
On the Eve home page Exploration is 1 of 4 of the 12 careers tagged as Solo - with a little solo icon next to it. So many of us with limited leisure time have dedicated our time to training skills to benefit in this area.
it's a personality thing and CCP recognise that there are solo types and co-op types.
The many people you met at the fanfest are not a random sample of your customer base - they are hard core.
I'm not saying that your work is wrong, and your hard work will no doubt bring me benefits I don't as yet understand.
BUT - encouraging co-operative is also double speak for shafting solo IF that is your intention. The current political/social culture in your place of work.
If it is not your intention then please be very careful that it doesn't happen and you keep squeezing solo out of the game plan.
If this is an unstoppable force, then at least could you remove the solo icon from the careers advice - that's not accurate anymore is it?
P.S. I know the argument goes that you are adding a multiplayer dimension and not taking away solo, but that is not what will pan out IMO. |
Malla Nkomi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:04:00 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Malla Nkomi wrote:What incentive is there for an alliance to install upgrades for these? I'm one of the team who would have to put forward the business case for the project to procure, ship and deploy these; a project with significant time and resource commitment in an environment with chaotic redistribution of income due to other changes. With no way for an alliance to track usage (no unique rat bounties showing up on corp apis), no alliance or corp revenue generated, and no obvious strategic advantage from yet another minor income source for a few individuals over other income sources?
It might be fun, but we won't know who is using it, how often and what income is derived.
EVE is serious business. I don't know if you saw the keynote where CCP Seagull was talking about Instigators and Enablers? We definitely want to empower people like yourself to make these sorts of decisions. This means providing you with more data and CREST our new third-party API platform is one of the means to doing that. This is bigger than just the exploration feature though and CREST is not yet user-facing so there are a couple of hurdles in the way but we're moving towards this ideal pretty quickly. Exposing data then becomes much more straightforward.
Information after the event doesn't sell it to me as a distributor of your game content - if I don't install the ihub upgrades we have no way to tell how many fewer of these sites will appear. With no way to predict the addition or absence of game content. With no way to predict and then evaluate usage, why am I going to run the titan and freighter ops to ship in hundreds of upgrades for this and then expend man days rolling them out?
I'm the player you need to sell this game content to first. I need reasons to kick off the project. So far you've given me nothing.
I AM your enabler and instigator for multiple regions in eve. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4828
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:12:00 -
[343] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already. So don't. Nobody can force you to cooperate with other players. Those that already have established circles of trust will find benefits in bringing these people exploring with them.
I really doubt x% more income from doing exploration sites will automatically cause you to start making friends in this game. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:13:00 -
[344] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Zen Dad wrote:HOWEVER can someone with direct first hand knowledge confirm the following for me - ODYSSEY will allow a cloaky solo to explore higher reward null sec sites without any rats or rat aggro?
If this is the case , then the Lord truely has taken away with one hand but given back with the other and I'm grateful- i think.
( Meanwhile - Somewhere deep in the CCP HQ in Iceland - Dev sends memo - " complete Odyssey update by removing cloak from cloak ships") *stops typing memo and looks over shoulder* ;) More seriously, yes I think that will be one result. I'll let our content designer tell you more though and I think it involves thinking hard about the cloaking stuff mentioned just above.
AGGGH - no - please - all I have in Eve is my cloaky pilgrim.. not that...please not that.
Don't think at all about cloaking -......it's not broken and I love it more than my wife (easy)
I promise never to post anything negative or have tears again...but please...no.....oh god no.......
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
150
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:16:00 -
[345] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already. So don't. Nobody can force you to cooperate with other players. Those that already have established circles of trust will find benefits in bringing these people exploring with them. I really doubt x% more income from doing exploration sites will automatically cause you to start making friends in this game.
I already said ways that a profit ladder could bring two or more people to do exploration, which I am actually looking forward to if such a thing was encouraged, but not for zero extra reward, this isn't a charity.
I mean sure, exploration could be just another boring isk grind with 42 man exploration corps sitting in one system for 2 years running the same constellations radars every night, spreadsheeting for max isk per hour, but what a pointless waste of time. I couldn't think of anything further away from the image someone imagines when they hear the words "space exploration". Indiana Jones in space it's not.
Why do you have to "make friends" like, why not just have a couple of hours to team up with someone, do something fun, then part ways, is that not valid interaction? |
|
CCP Bayesian
664
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 10:24:00 -
[346] - Quote
Malla Nkomi wrote:Information after the event doesn't sell it to me as a distributor of your game content - if I don't install the ihub upgrades we have no way to tell how many fewer of these sites will appear. With no way to predict the addition or absence of game content. With no way to predict and then evaluate usage, why am I going to run the titan and freighter ops to ship in hundreds of upgrades for this and then expend man days rolling them out?
I'm the player you need to sell this game content to first. I need reasons to kick off the project. So far you've given me nothing.
I AM your enabler and instigator for multiple regions in eve.
You were talking about tracking usage so I presumed you were talking about data collection on activities you were carrying out or things that were publically accessible but not easily aggregated currently as a rule. As you note you'll still need information after the event to determine if your predictions are correct so it's still something that should be accessible.
In terms of prediction could you spell out what you'd like to see so it's clear what we're talking about. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Simon Severasse
Los Marginales
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:26:00 -
[347] - Quote
Are wormhole hacking and magnetometric sites being updated as well? |
Myntelle NicAtoch
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:47:00 -
[348] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Malla Nkomi wrote:Information after the event doesn't sell it to me as a distributor of your game content - if I don't install the ihub upgrades we have no way to tell how many fewer of these sites will appear. With no way to predict the addition or absence of game content. With no way to predict and then evaluate usage, why am I going to run the titan and freighter ops to ship in hundreds of upgrades for this and then expend man days rolling them out?
I'm the player you need to sell this game content to first. I need reasons to kick off the project. So far you've given me nothing.
I AM your enabler and instigator for multiple regions in eve. You were talking about tracking usage so I presumed you were talking about data collection on activities you were carrying out or things that were publically accessible but not easily aggregated currently as a rule. As you note you'll still need information after the event to determine if your predictions are correct so it's still something that should be accessible. In terms of prediction could you spell out what you'd like to see so it's clear what we're talking about. As part of your research into this topic you will have datamined current ihub upgrade numbers and seen how few Suvery Networks and Entrapment Arrays are installed compared with Pirate Detection Arrays and Ore Porcessing Arrays.
Pirate Detection Arrays mechanics are well defined. Alliances can predict the income derived from them and their usage. They can decide when it is worth installing them, and how much it is reasonble to collect from them in corp taxes or rental fees. Even had CCP not made these numbers public, alliances could roll a few out and derive the numbers they need to justify installing them using observation andthe apis.
Ore Prospecting Arrays are similar, though alliance income is much harder to collect. CCP didn't reveal as much about these as they did in the blog posts advertising the PDAs, but organized groups were able to study the mechanics and write reports (see the slighly out of date Bloodtear Industry Report https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109125) which allow the rest of us to determine whether to use them. Alliances are less enthusiastic about these, in large part due to the ease of smuggling and tax avoidance. Dozens of refineries in empire are the best place to refine your compressed ore blocks if your alliance tax is higher than 0.3%. No direct corp or alliance income erodes the enthusiasm for these, the local refinery tax being so trival to evade, but sovereignty data can be used to work out the potential ore extracted within some relatively wide bands, and the logistics involved in mass mining operations make identifying the groups using the site and charging them fees practical though not trivial.
None of this applies to Survey Network and Entrapment Arrays. The mechanics of the upgrades are not well known, despite some very time consuming projects to determine their effect. The income from the upgrades is nigh on impossible to calculate and even harder to collect. With the removal of the identifiable rats, you can't even tell from the API whether any of them have been run, nevermind who ran them. The game content they create suits the passing ninja plexer, who comes into system, scans it, runs it and leaves, with the owning allinace or corp gaining nothing. The old static plexes they replaced at least had the benefit of spawning in a fixed system at downtime so control of them could be fought over.
If you want us, the alliance leaders, to spend real life manweeks on installing these upgrades, give us an incentive, in information, if not in revenue.
CSM8 contains some very experienced null sec alliance leaders, Mynnna and Kesper especially. You should talk to them. It will be worth your time. |
|
CCP Bayesian
665
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:51:00 -
[349] - Quote
Myntelle NicAtoch, awesome thanks very much for such a detailed response.
CCP Affinity is the content designer on our team and we're working closely with CCP Tallest and CCP SoniClover from Superfriends. I've passed this directly on to them for comment. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
854
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:53:00 -
[350] - Quote
Hey Mynas :P Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
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DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:27:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Mis'tral wrote:So if you are doing solo hacking sites, you can eventually get all the items, providing you are in range, you fly to them or TB them to you? From the descriptions provided thus far, the impression is that you can actually miss alot of items from hacked containers (if you don't have a buddy helping you 'collect' them in time).
If the above is true, what's from stopping you hack all containers in a site one after another (not bothering to 'catch' them), then just fly around and collect all the items? It's something you can do solo but you aren't penalised for wanting to do it in a group. The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. You'll do good as a solo player but better with someone else, Garresh's comments about opportunity cost are dead on. We're of course experimenting with values for all of these things internally and will be watching and adjusting things on an on-going basis as this hits Sisi and TQ.
There seem to a mentality that unless you're able to grab last piece of loot on screen - whether you normally would or not - is a "bad" thing. Logically telling players that "running solo and grabbing 50% of cans is the same payout as the old solo" only results in "what?? I could make double ISK by grabbing all of them?? You have to introduce a way so I CAN GRAB EVERYTHING!!".
I will reserve any major judgement until I see it at work. Right now I don't see it as bad, but I have to admit it seems weirdly different. Pretty sure that if EVE had this from day one, we would of considered it normal. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:33:00 -
[352] - Quote
Tell CCP to look at this http://www.spacechemthegame.com, especially when using it for Reactions, now THAT would be interesting. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:41:00 -
[353] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Mining mechanics should be more strategy based and not reaction based. It's all about planning where to drill and what to dig up. I hated it back in ELITE when you shot up a asteroid and then had to hunt down all the pieces flying off, losing track of most of them in the process.
Similar, I think Archaeology should be about rummaging through ruins for hints and puzzle pieces until you have enough to put a map together that allows you to find some valuable cache.
Really, the more I think about the jettisoning of random bit you collect, the less I like it. Maybe try something more sophisticated?
I like the idea the idea that the better you get at the hacking minigame, the more you get, and mistakes cost you isk. No idea how you'd implement that though, but it would make more sense to me as a mechanic. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:47:00 -
[354] - Quote
Ember Saint wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:It's not going to encourage group gameplay, it's just going to force us to drag around an alt just like now. can you drag little cans faster in two windows?
In his defense, as stated, once you click on one can it takes a few seconds to drag in back. You could easily have an alt 1000m further back to catch other cans, so you'd click, and while one can is being tractored, alt-tab and grab another, then repeat, so yea, you would "grab" faster.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
Merouk Baas
628
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 13:49:00 -
[355] - Quote
RE: exploration minigame, I hate whack-a-mole minigames. You're implementing one, with guaranteed failure rate, that is as much a clickfest as possible. We'll have to click on containers, click to rotate camera, click to move ship, click on more containers, and repeat. Your interface already sucks in its lack of good keybinds and reliance on clicking or right-clicking for everything; go ahead and add more to it what the hell.
How about changing it so the damn analyzer modules to auto-loot the cans, and collect, say, 50% or skill-based of them, at random, as they fly away. And let us put scripts in the analyzers, that modify the preferences of what they auto-collect, 90% of this type of resource 10% of that, so that there's some player skill involved, a little bit like online poker where you pick your cards ahead of time and juggle the odds, to try to beat what the computer may have. |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 14:34:00 -
[356] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Looked at that thread and somehow I did not find the words "Instead of having items explode out in space what the mechanic should be is..." But I do like the idea of exploration sites far out in the darkness, and exploration sites that escalate to new sites. However remember that soon after release all the answers will be on Eve Survival Guide. If you do not like items exploding out into space, what do you want to see instead? And lets not say things like " it should not be a twitch game" or "it should be fun", lets have actual descriptions of the game mechanic. What happens? What does the player do? For example, right now the mechanic is "target can, activate module, wait for a successful cycle, loot". The new mechanic is "Solve mini game, wait for item spew, click on green items, fly after them if you get too far away". Is there some other mechanic we would rather see?
It should be up to a player how much time/effort to expand, as long as it's in a controlled matter. if say 10 cans pop out, the most valuable 5 will account for say 60% (3/5) of profit, the other 5 for the remaining 40% (2/5), how valuabale a can is may be told from the scanner - and if current scanners can list by item every item in a Freighter, pretty sure they'd have no trouble with old ships.
You would then have to invest time in hacking each can individually, as people with higher invested skills and more expensive modules would be able to do a better job, encouraging more blingy ships and greater risk of loss.
Most would settle in hacking the more valuable cans only, while poorer players may sit there and hack them all, but this way, the effort is player decided, rather then (and I'm being facetious here) missing out cause my cat jumped on my lap.
The "loot Pinata" as everyone calls it, breaks immersion in a BIG way for me. Surely I'd mount a Net Caster Module after the 3rd time I find out these places just launch stuff at me. Multiple hack mini-games would still use effort, stop botting and increase players sense of achievement.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
Moth Eisig
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:15:00 -
[357] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:I've been thinking a bit more about the Loot Barf and having multiple players there, I can only see having multiple players being there as having a result of reducing the ISK/Hour/Player. With 2 Players, You may get lucky and not click on each others loot, although I'm pretty sure that there will most likely be 1 or 2 that both players click on. Thus making it if 1 player can click on 5/10 loot items, does not mean that 2 players will get 10/10 loot items, the most likely is either 8/10 or 9/10 if lucky, and most probably going down the more players you have. Thus working from averages and making the math easy, lets just say the average is that every loot has 1M ISK worth in it. 1 Player can get 5M 2 Players can get 8 to 9M (thus each player getting 4M to 4.5M each) More Players even less per player(numbers are completely arbitrary)
Seven Koskanaiken wrote: And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already.
I think you guys are looking at it wrong. Here's how it's going to work once smart people figure it out: explorers are going to find gangs to team up with and more or less accompany them on roams, and then when the explorers are ready to pop a pinata, the gang, or part of it depending on how many players exploration sites will support will show up for a few seconds.
For the explorers, the price of two people potentially clicking on the same loot can is nothing compared to the advantage of having back up to chase other explorers and explorer hunters away, and for the gangs the explorers run with, they're just doing what they always do anyhow, only with the added ability to bypass all the boring exploration stuff and spend a few seconds grabbing cans to help fund their PvP habit. It's too beneficial for everyone involved for it not to happen eventually.
It's good for most of game's players, because it should add more focal points for small gang pvp, but it's going to be rough on solo exploration. At least in low-sec. In high sec there is probably not much reason to have a group.
|
Vincent Gaines
Cold Moon Destruction Transmission Lost
414
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:27:00 -
[358] - Quote
You're still going to share those rewards with the same gang.
I don't see missions forcing mission runners to share loot to get all the rewards. Currently the price you pay for solo is time invested.
There shouldn't be an implied law that every single action in Eve should be done as a group. There shouldn't be a mechanic that physically forces it in order to be sucessful at a site.
The loot barf/loot pinata idea is the only real problem.
Just have the loot eject... there's no need for it to randomly shoot off all willy-nilly, nimbly-bimbly. Not a diplo.-á
The above post was edited for spelling. |
Moth Eisig
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 16:02:00 -
[359] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote: I don't see missions forcing mission runners to share loot to get all the rewards. Currently the price you pay for solo is time invested.
The numbers can be balanced so it comes out the same. Not getting all the rewards under the new system is just a player perception issue as "all the rewards" is actually "everything the site is designed for a single player to get." Instead of taking more time as a solo player to do a big high reward site, you just move on to a different site with the new system and get roughly the same reward in roughly the same time.
I share your concerns about the changes being bad for solo exploration, and I agree that the loot pinata is the source of the problem, but I think it's because in low sec pirates/random roams that currently ignore exploration will realize that jumping in on a friendly explorer's site when it's ready to go will be one of the best isk/time spent opportunities available. It's not because you're somehow missing out on loot as a solo explorer. |
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
100
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 16:06:00 -
[360] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:I've been thinking a bit more about the Loot Barf and having multiple players there, I can only see having multiple players being there as having a result of reducing the ISK/Hour/Player. With 2 Players, You may get lucky and not click on each others loot, although I'm pretty sure that there will most likely be 1 or 2 that both players click on. Thus making it if 1 player can click on 5/10 loot items, does not mean that 2 players will get 10/10 loot items, the most likely is either 8/10 or 9/10 if lucky, and most probably going down the more players you have. Thus working from averages and making the math easy, lets just say the average is that every loot has 1M ISK worth in it. 1 Player can get 5M 2 Players can get 8 to 9M (thus each player getting 4M to 4.5M each) More Players even less per player(numbers are completely arbitrary)
Seven Koskanaiken wrote: And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already.
I think you guys are looking at it wrong. Here's how it's going to work once smart people figure it out: explorers are going to find gangs to team up with and more or less accompany them on roams, and then when the explorers are ready to pop a pinata, the gang, or part of it depending on how many players exploration sites will support will show up for a few seconds. For the explorers, the price of two people potentially clicking on the same loot can is nothing compared to the advantage of having back up to chase other explorers and explorer hunters away, and for the gangs the explorers run with, they're just doing what they always do anyhow, only with the added ability to bypass all the boring exploration stuff and spend a few seconds grabbing cans to help fund their PvP habit. It's too beneficial for everyone involved for it not to happen eventually. It's good for most of game's players, because it should add more focal points for small gang pvp, but it's going to be rough on solo exploration. At least in low-sec. In high sec there is probably not much reason to have a group.
|
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Moth Eisig
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 16:35:00 -
[361] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:[quote=Moth Eisig] er.. i posted a long post and erased in error so to precis -
Eve exploration has a Je Ne Sais Quoi that will lie forever beyond the understanding of those driven by statisitcs and loot tables. It doesnt need to be altered to attract people who need to" bypass all the boring exploration" for a wad of loot - these people are undesirable riff raft, probably from null sec alliances who do strange boring hidden things in POS's that don't really interest me either.
Yes, but I think what I posted is the direction exploration is heading. I certainly intend to take advantage of offering loot I won't get anyhow in exchange for protection from certain groups. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
408
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 16:49:00 -
[362] - Quote
I don't mind the minigame, but I do want to see more before I can make a proper judgment on it. It should require some skill to do, not just be click a ceries of dots and hope the random number gods have smiled upon you.
I do NOT like the idea of the can puking loot all over the place if you are successful. Spamming clicks and tractoring crap is a pain in the ass. Eve isn't a twitch sort of game, so it seems awfully out of place. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 18:26:00 -
[363] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Ari Laveran wrote:The Panic is strong in this thread.
Logan LaMort has it about right. There is more good than bad here.
Is it really that far of stretch for sci-fi game that releasing an airlock would fling debris into space? I'm not understanding why this idea is upsetting so many people, or is taken as contrary to the nature of eve. The gods forbid I have to click a "thing" in my PC MMO. This logic is solid. However, I should be able to bring a Noctis and snatch 8 things at once; unless this is also possible, then these are just arcade mechanics for the sake of annoying players. Fitting actual tractor beams to tractor more cans at a time certainly is far more in-line with EvE play style. But doesn't go far enough.
The whole
CCP Bayesian wrote:The containers in question aren't designed to last in open space so they degrade reasonably quickly and are destroyed along with their contents. makes me think why am I here sneaking around in a frigate like Indiana trying to steal stuff from the wreck? There's another kind of exploration. The strip mine the desert with five thousand people kind.
Why can't I tractor the whole wreck into a Carrier ship maintenance bay and dock up in station. Then do my hacking in a pressurized environment, secure the delicate valuable content and reprocess what's left into a pile of Tritanium. Or scoop the whole thing with a Freighter for largely the same purpose. Why do I have to be content taking one measly idol per person from a pyramid full of riches. Especially if the pyramid is located on my property. Mind you, I might have to do some hacking on the wreck first to disable any potential self destruct mechanism, facilitating the at-risk pvp time spent in space.
I know, I know, it's supposed to be an activity for solo/small groups of low skill point pilots. One big minigame. I just feel like there are better alternative mechanics for encouraging bringing a friend to an otherwise solo activity. Focusing it around faster scan and hack time from collaborative effort, resulting in faster respawns of content, can largely accomplish the same goals.
I think there is a significant design goal here to allow a hostile player to wait for the loot explosion to steal and tie it into crime watch in high sec. I just don't see how this would happen. Perhaps if a failed skill check on a firewall in the mini-game resulted in a distress signal, creating a warp-able system wide overview beacon. But even then, if you can only ever grab 6/18 cans and a third party grabs 6 of his own while you are in a non-combat ship... do you care? Are you going to fit for combat, or reship and hunt this suspect over high sec radar loot you were never going to pick up in the first place? |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 18:50:00 -
[364] - Quote
One unintended side effect of the new system is going to be in how hard it is to tell someone to go play World of Warcraft with a straight face (or to get with the times, GW2) since CCP has decided to borrow design ideas from such games to remake their own. I never thought I would see a day when site exploration played out in similar fashion to angling for oily black mouth in Darkshore or popping the ribbon on a holiday box in GW2. I wonder, if 8 bit AI drones in sleeper sites will make an appearance. Either way they just muted half of rookie chat and New CitizenGÇÖs forum posting... A plus for Odyssey perhaps? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1683
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 19:11:00 -
[365] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Rytell Tybat wrote:Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game. There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise. Keep up the good work! Ultimately we want to keep things simple for the first release which is why the hacking is explicitly single-player. This not only lets us concentrate on getting the hacking right in that context but lets us fit it into the timeframe in which we want to get it out in front of you guys which has got to be the first step. I had lots of people at Fanfest saying they want to play this cooperatively and competitively. Future iteration is definitely the plan though. Hi, On the Eve home page Exploration is 1 of 4 of the 12 careers tagged as Solo - with a little solo icon next to it. So many of us with limited leisure time have dedicated our time to training skills to benefit in this area. it's a personality thing and CCP recognise that there are solo types and co-op types. The many people you met at the fanfest are not a random sample of your customer base - they are hard core. I'm not saying that your work is wrong, and your hard work will no doubt bring me benefits I don't as yet understand. BUT - encouraging co-operative is also double speak for shafting solo IF that is your intention. The current political/social culture in your place of work. If it is not your intention then please be very careful that it doesn't happen and you keep squeezing solo out of the game plan. If this is an unstoppable force, then at least could you remove the solo icon from the careers advice - that's not accurate anymore is it? P.S. I know the argument goes that you are adding a multiplayer dimension and not taking away solo, but that is not what will pan out IMO.
Sorry, no matter what some website says you're playing a multiplayer game that needs various kinds of interaction. CCP is simply evolving the game to be more about what it is and less about the "single player enjoying multiplayer benefits online" thing that is has been.
That simply puts you and people like you on the wrong side of (EVE) History, kinda like the dude who invested all of his inheritance money in buuying new slaves....the day before the American Civil War started lol.
Really, how absolutly foolish and selfish can someone be to aks a multiplayer game maker to NOT make the game more multip-layer because "I like to play solo". No one owes you a video game, if you don't like what EVE is becoming and can't stand it, play something else (like I would if they catered to much to "casauls" in what is supposed to be a hard core game). |
Xavier Quo
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 19:19:00 -
[366] - Quote
Well this is disappointing. Am I right in taking from the Dev comments that there will be no new sites/anomalies/signals, no new loot, no new lore, no multi-site locations, no new WiS, no new exploration types, no new scannings mechanics or overhaul, other than the UI overlay in space and probe presets, no new ships other than reskins, stat tweaks and inconsequential limited edition ships, no new star systems, no piecing together puzzles, clues, audio-visual logs for actual exploring and discovery?
Where on earth is the wonder and sense of getting lost in space that was quoted as being the core of the expansion? Other than wondering what was in that damn crate that flew off I mean. (and where that tractor beam came from, and why I still need to fit a tractor beam for other things now that every ship has one fitted...)
Sorry to be so negative, graphics tweaks are very nice, various fixes are great and long overdue, mini game looks potentially cool even I don't think it has a place in eve, new apoc is amazing, etc etc
But nice fixes and tweaks does not a good expansion make. For the past ten years you haven't had any serious competition and sometimes CCP you don't half let it show. Next ten years ain't gonna be so easy. |
TheUnholyTerror
TalCorp Enterprises Care Factor
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 01:05:00 -
[367] - Quote
I just want to say, that i just got into exploration. Fitted out a perfect Loki that does everything i wanted in every way. And I LOVE it!. The lack of rats in the update is disappointing. This is exploration, you don't know what you are going to find, for all you know you could warp into 10 true sansha Battleships and be destroyed, or warp into a few frigates that did nothing. Getting rid of the rats brings down the Surprise factor. The hacking mini game, my bottom line is it is dumb, i liked the hit the module and wait myself, not complicated, not tedious, and reflected your skills in game based on how long it took to open said cargo. Addressing the cans flying into space portion, eh doesn't sound very fun to me. The items fly away, i get a few, the rest explode and I'm left feeling well this site was crap, too bad i probably missed the 'good' can, although that might just be me. All i was looking forward to form Odyssey, was some new eyecandy for the exploration sites. A new scanning interface, which does look nice, and of course the graphic re-texturing. So i spent 800mill on a ship i can now enjoy for a month, woohoo -_- fantastic. As far as the social aspect goes, i explore with buddies all the time, its fun, effective, and pays well. I see no benefit in the new mechanics, and i really hope this only pertains to Radar Sites, which are already crap anyway.
So begs the question - what are we gonna do with all these expensive exploration Tech 3s eh? As far as i see it its back to ratting.
Terror |
TheUnholyTerror
TalCorp Enterprises Care Factor
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 01:10:00 -
[368] - Quote
Though to expand on myself, if i get loot that is worth say 400 million, I'm not going to care whatsoever what could have been in the other cans. So the "what did i miss?" feeling would be nonexistent if the site pays out well. If the sites are always crap well then you will always feel like you missed out on something.
Terror |
Regan Rotineque
Rl'yeh Interstellar Ltd. Mildly Sober
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 01:27:00 -
[369] - Quote
I am liking all that I see so far.....even went and updated my Singularity account in anticipation.
But I do not understand the moving of grav to anomalies
Why make this easier? One should have to probe out the sites in high sec, low sec and null - im thinking particularly in high sec when i was a wee podling barely able to explode - i remember mining the large jaspet sites and making lots of iskies - why? because i took the time to scan for them to skill up and learn how to do some basic probing.
So now instead of making people work for this or skill up to find them they just get them given on a platter - this is too easy buttonish for my liking.
~R~ |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 02:19:00 -
[370] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote: But I do not understand the moving of grav to anomalies
My guess is some consistency.
You will be scanning for exploration sites where you use exploration modules (and wormholes) in an exploration ship. Combat and mining sites don't require special exploration-related modules, are (generally) done in ships without a probe launcher and therefore move to anomalies scanable in the ship appropriate for the job. |
|
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 06:00:00 -
[371] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Zen Dad wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Rytell Tybat wrote:Have you considered also having the collaboration aspect as part of the hacking/archeology activity? A mini-game that more than one person needs to play simultaneously, for there to be a chance of success? I'm thinking of an additional variation of what is potentially coming with Odyssey, not instead of. Perhaps a different type of exploration site? This way teams of hackers/archeologists could collaborate, not just in grabbing loot (nothing wrong with that), but also in a cooperative mini-game. There may be some major technical issues in regards to this, but it seems like this would fit perfectly in EVE. Also, if it would require the cognitive effort of 2+ individuals, then perhaps it would be more difficult for it to be reduced to a multi-boxing exercise. Keep up the good work! Ultimately we want to keep things simple for the first release which is why the hacking is explicitly single-player. This not only lets us concentrate on getting the hacking right in that context but lets us fit it into the timeframe in which we want to get it out in front of you guys which has got to be the first step. I had lots of people at Fanfest saying they want to play this cooperatively and competitively. Future iteration is definitely the plan though. Hi, On the Eve home page Exploration is 1 of 4 of the 12 careers tagged as Solo - with a little solo icon next to it. So many of us with limited leisure time have dedicated our time to training skills to benefit in this area. it's a personality thing and CCP recognise that there are solo types and co-op types. The many people you met at the fanfest are not a random sample of your customer base - they are hard core. I'm not saying that your work is wrong, and your hard work will no doubt bring me benefits I don't as yet understand. BUT - encouraging co-operative is also double speak for shafting solo IF that is your intention. The current political/social culture in your place of work. If it is not your intention then please be very careful that it doesn't happen and you keep squeezing solo out of the game plan. If this is an unstoppable force, then at least could you remove the solo icon from the careers advice - that's not accurate anymore is it? P.S. I know the argument goes that you are adding a multiplayer dimension and not taking away solo, but that is not what will pan out IMO. Sorry, no matter what some website says you're playing a multiplayer game that needs various kinds of interaction. CCP is simply evolving the game to be more about what it is and less about the "single player enjoying multiplayer benefits online" thing that is has been. That simply puts you and people like you on the wrong side of (EVE) History, kinda like the dude who invested all of his inheritance money in buuying new slaves....the day before the American Civil War started lol. Really, how absolutly foolish and selfish can someone be to aks a multiplayer game maker to NOT make the game more multip-layer because "I like to play solo". No one owes you a video game, if you don't like what EVE is becoming and can't stand it, play something else (like I would if they catered to much to "casauls" in what is supposed to be a hard core game).
You have a predictable style Jenn. .Your favourite is " you and people like you @@@@ etc etc" Having a contrary view does not make someone a cockroach you know?
But lets stick to FACTS. the solo tag is on the EVE WEBSITE. not some website. Its an EVE personality test and if you like solo then Exploration is recommended. Im not making it up Jen - its on the Eve Site. And presumably put there by the powers that be.
I enjoy playing in a multiplayer environment because these are real people to interact with. I would LOVE to blow you up, but i would only get complete pleasure by doing it myself- by attacking you in game without any assistance from anyone. Teaming with another blue (i have lots of blues Jenn) would halve my pleasure on this one.
You on the other-hand would be happy enough to see me on your Corps kill mail or blob me.
That is the difference between us ( and people like us )
The other difference is that I'm happy for you to do your thIng whilst you get irritated with people that don't conform
One must ask who it is that is being foolish and selfish here.? |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 06:08:00 -
[372] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:I've been thinking a bit more about the Loot Barf and having multiple players there, I can only see having multiple players being there as having a result of reducing the ISK/Hour/Player. With 2 Players, You may get lucky and not click on each others loot, although I'm pretty sure that there will most likely be 1 or 2 that both players click on. Thus making it if 1 player can click on 5/10 loot items, does not mean that 2 players will get 10/10 loot items, the most likely is either 8/10 or 9/10 if lucky, and most probably going down the more players you have. Thus working from averages and making the math easy, lets just say the average is that every loot has 1M ISK worth in it. 1 Player can get 5M 2 Players can get 8 to 9M (thus each player getting 4M to 4.5M each) More Players even less per player(numbers are completely arbitrary)
Seven Koskanaiken wrote: And...no one is going to sit there in their paper thin scanning ship with sisters prob launcher fitted and say, well since my arse is flapping in the air why don't i invite some more ships into this site for zero reward. That's going to DIScourage interaction, with the 99.9% of players who are not on your teamspeak already.
I think you guys are looking at it wrong. Here's how it's going to work once smart people figure it out: explorers are going to find gangs to team up with and more or less accompany them on roams, and then when the explorers are ready to pop a pinata, the gang, or part of it depending on how many players exploration sites will support will show up for a few seconds. For the explorers, the price of two people potentially clicking on the same loot can is nothing compared to the advantage of having back up to chase other explorers and explorer hunters away, and for the gangs the explorers run with, they're just doing what they always do anyhow, only with the added ability to bypass all the boring exploration stuff and spend a few seconds grabbing cans to help fund their PvP habit. It's too beneficial for everyone involved for it not to happen eventually. It's good for most of game's players, because it should add more focal points for small gang pvp, but it's going to be rough on solo exploration. At least in low-sec. In high sec there is probably not much reason to have a group. er.. i posted a long post and erased in error so to precis - Eve exploration has a Je Ne Sais Quoi that will lie forever beyond the understanding of those driven by statisitcs and loot tables. It doesnt need to be altered to attract people who need to" bypass all the boring exploration" for a wad of loot - these people are undesirable riff raft, probably from null sec alliances who do strange boring hidden things in POS's that don't really interest me either. I am thinking about Archaeology and Exploration, would you expect the Archaeologists to turn up look at the pyramid and go Cool and leave, or would you expect them to set-up camp and sift through the sand and perhaps find that hidden chamber? I person would turn up and go cool is not an Explorer, they are a Tourist :P
I don't think that you should automatically be given an escalation by completing a site, you should get the Bookmark or some textpad item saying where it might be and then go exploring there.
|
Davis TetrisKing
Turtle Enterprises
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 06:40:00 -
[373] - Quote
Hmm, I'll be keeping a close eye on this. The new minigame for hacking etc looks and sounds interesting. I have no problem with making it a little more involved so that there is more chance for explorers to not be watching dscan and making the whole activity of hacking in hostile space feel a little riskier (still love when I get that on edge feeling while trying to finish an objective with hostiles in system in low) sounds like a good thing to me. Seems a bit cheesy but if it's done well I could see it being a good addition to the game.
Chasing loot cans around space and being told I am going to miss some of them? Wow, can't express how unfun this sounds to me. I mean Seriously?
I can understand the desire to make it profitable to bring friends along. Sounds logical. But surely there are better ways to do this than making me chase cans around. God that sounds awful.
Why not incorporate it in the minigame itself? Have bonus 'unlocks' that need two people coordinating in the one hack to open. That way a solo pilot can hack into it and loot the basic stuff without it looking like they missed loot that just flew off into space. Then when you bring a friend along you can go for the coop hack that will give the same loot as the solo hack plus a bonus.
And I know that at the end of the day if it's balanced properly it would essentially be the same thing. But deciding to open something knowing I'm ignoring the coop bonus cause I'm alone feels a lot better than having unknown loot fly off into space that maybe, just maybe I could have gotten.
I spose I'm ignoring the bit about people being able to ninja the loot when someone hacks it open, but tbh I can't see this being that big a feature. As it is it sounds like just as much effort to go to to catch someone hacking than just exploring in the first place, with the added disincentive of making you a suspect. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny Cha Ching PLC
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 10:30:00 -
[374] - Quote
wow, i would not have guessed that capsuleers have that a big issue with some cans floating out of their reach. i mean come on guys it's essentially the same mechanic as the incursion rewards; either you bring enough friends or you have to live with a reduced payout (wether it would be a bigger deed doing it with less people or not). actually we don't even lnow if there is a reduced payout, could be also that the payout for solo-explorers is bigger than before and the additional cans are for your friends. i do not recall people beeing this worked up back then, just before the introduction of incursions. looking at what activities one does right now, those new exploration sides seem an improvement to me.
i just don't know how i feel about the hacking mini game yet. the idea itself is good. but simply clicking my self through firewalls does not feel like hacking. i want to solve something, more like a puzzle. for example how about some form of rubiks cube? depending on the location of the side (high, low, 0.0) and maybe some tiering in sides, the cube could be more or less difficult to solve. The (eve)hacking skill and maybe the fitted modules like the hacking module could give help and/or hints how to solve the thing. usually the hacking minigames, where you actually have to use your brain instead of clicking/drag'n'drop like fury against a timer are the most fun and tend to feel less repetitive. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1683
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 12:25:00 -
[375] - Quote
Zen Dad wrote:
You have a predictable style Jenn.
Alopng with "hurting", the truth is also predictable. The truth is the problem is with your choice to lay this kind of game, not something CCP is doing or has done.
Quote: .Your favourite is " you and people like you @@@@ etc etc" Having a contrary view does not make someone a cockroach you know?
When that contrary view is dumb, yea it does make a person something. What, i just don't know.
Quote: But lets stick to FACTS. the solo tag is on the EVE WEBSITE. not some website. Its an EVE personality test and if you like solo then Exploration is recommended. Im not making it up Jen - its on the Eve Site. And presumably put there by the powers that be.
OR put there by a bored low level ccp website maker. What you keep pining your hopes on is website FLUFF that essentially means nothing. That same site could say "join EVE and get a free Tech 3 Titan", till you are flying in a Tech3 titan, I means nothing.
Quote: I enjoy playing in a multiplayer environment because these are real people to interact with. I would LOVE to blow you up, but i would only get complete pleasure by doing it myself- by attacking you in game without any assistance from anyone. Teaming with another blue (i have lots of blues Jenn) would halve my pleasure on this one.
You on the other-hand would be happy enough to see me on your Corps kill mail or blob me.
That is the difference between us ( and people like us )
The other difference is that I'm happy for you to do your thIng whilst you get irritated with people that don't conform
One must ask who it is that is being foolish and selfish here.?
The above is really weak, the "cry of the inadequate". You have some serious personal problems guy.
Do you really think I sit around at night thinking "OMG, Some anonymous dude with the screen name "Zen Dad" isn't doing what I want him to do and is playing the game different, Blasphemy, burn the heretic!"
It' honestly seems like you (AND YOUR KIND) love to fall back on that self serving bit of insanity, like you are more than just 1 of 6 + billion human beings and somehow therefore important to anyone other than your own mothers. You are not.
No one cares about ANYTHING you do, let alone how you play a video game. I'm just pointing out that every time you've complained about something in this particular video game on this particular forum, the REAL issue hasn't been the game, but the fact that your personality type just doesn't fit in with what the game is. I'm going to keep pointing that out every time you accuse these brilliant game makers of carrying out Socialist plots just because YOU (and your folks) can't deal with the idea of actually playing a multilayer video game.
|
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 14:18:00 -
[376] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Zen Dad wrote:
You have a predictable style Jenn.
Alopng with "hurting", the truth is also predictable. The truth is the problem is with your choice to lay this kind of game, not something CCP is doing or has done. Quote: .Your favourite is " you and people like you @@@@ etc etc" Having a contrary view does not make someone a cockroach you know?
When that contrary view is dumb, yea it does make a person something. What, i just don't know. Quote: But lets stick to FACTS. the solo tag is on the EVE WEBSITE. not some website. Its an EVE personality test and if you like solo then Exploration is recommended. Im not making it up Jen - its on the Eve Site. And presumably put there by the powers that be.
OR put there by a bored low level ccp website maker. What you keep pining your hopes on is website FLUFF that essentially means nothing. That same site could say "join EVE and get a free Tech 3 Titan", till you are flying in a Tech3 titan, I means nothing. Quote: I enjoy playing in a multiplayer environment because these are real people to interact with. I would LOVE to blow you up, but i would only get complete pleasure by doing it myself- by attacking you in game without any assistance from anyone. Teaming with another blue (i have lots of blues Jenn) would halve my pleasure on this one.
You on the other-hand would be happy enough to see me on your Corps kill mail or blob me.
That is the difference between us ( and people like us )
The other difference is that I'm happy for you to do your thIng whilst you get irritated with people that don't conform
One must ask who it is that is being foolish and selfish here.?
The above is really weak, the "cry of the inadequate". You have some serious personal problems guy. Do you really think I sit around at night thinking "OMG, Some anonymous dude with the screen name "Zen Dad" isn't doing what I want him to do and is playing the game different, Blasphemy, burn the heretic!" It' honestly seems like you (AND YOUR KIND) love to fall back on that self serving bit of insanity, like you are more than just 1 of 6 + billion human beings and somehow therefore important to anyone other than your own mothers. You are not. No one cares about ANYTHING you do, let alone how you play a video game. I'm just pointing out that every time you've complained about something in this particular video game on this particular forum, the REAL issue hasn't been the game, but the fact that your personality type just doesn't fit in with what the game is. I'm going to keep pointing that out every time you accuse these brilliant game makers of carrying out Socialist plots just because YOU (and your folks) can't deal with the idea of actually playing a multilayer video game.
|
Haulie Berry
566
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 14:45:00 -
[377] - Quote
Quote:But lets stick to FACTS. the solo tag is on the EVE WEBSITE. not some website. Its an EVE personality test and if you like solo then Exploration is recommended. Im not making it up Jen - its on the Eve Site.
Since they haven't actually done anything to make solo exploration any less feasible, you seem to be complaining about absolutely nothing. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:29:00 -
[378] - Quote
As an uninvolved party I have nothing against any of you however as the OP I would ask you to please leave the personal issues out of this discussion. Love or hate the material presented it has been a interesting topic (and dare one hope productive) if nothing else and I would hate to see it derailed or closed due to flaring tempers. It is alright to disagree but please do so with courtesy and mutual respect.
Now that I have written this I am sure it will haunt me one day... (Risk vs. Reward.) |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:40:00 -
[379] - Quote
slightly off topic, but while CCP is reading this:
Can sites be made to spawn in deep space? i would love to see very deep space cosmic signatures, not always huddled around a 16AU radius of a planet (as it is today) ... |
Haulie Berry
574
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:47:00 -
[380] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:slightly off topic, but while CCP is reading this:
Can sites be made to spawn in deep space? i would love to see very deep space cosmic signatures, not always huddled around a 16AU radius of a planet (as it is today) ...
"Maybe I can catch CCP asleep at the wheel and bring back deep safespots..." |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1684
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:59:00 -
[381] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Kitanga wrote:slightly off topic, but while CCP is reading this:
Can sites be made to spawn in deep space? i would love to see very deep space cosmic signatures, not always huddled around a 16AU radius of a planet (as it is today) ... "Maybe I can catch CCP asleep at the wheel and bring back deep safespots..."
Don't wanna derail much, but deep safes were fun as hell. I remember jumping with a fleet to a spot like250 au out from the star, it was a race to see what would happen 1st, would we load grid or would the enemy land and slaughter us. And i remember FCs ordering cyno pilots to light 2 deep cynos at once making the enemy choose what to do etc.
While I'm not in favor of bugs and exploits, I kinds miss that "storming the beachhead" feeling lol. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
627
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:00:00 -
[382] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Myntelle NicAtoch, awesome thanks very much for such a detailed response.
CCP Affinity is the content designer on our team and we're working closely with CCP Tallest and CCP SoniClover from Superfriends. I've passed this directly on to them for comment. I would also really like some explanation (in detail) of what those exploration upgrades do. I mean, one of the issues is we can't even tell if they do any good at all: there have been persistent rumors that the upgrades just don't actually work and do nothing for years, and we can't even disprove that. I also can't tell if installing those upgrades in multiple systems wrecks their effectiveness (by pulling sites that can be pulled to many different locations) or increases it, or again is just plain broken. |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:16:00 -
[383] - Quote
I like the idea of revamping the exploration system. So really looking forward to that and hope its implementation will be successful and create an interesting new playground for both PvPers and explorers.
I also hope that CCP doesn't listen too much to some of these carebears in here and will decide to balance the "mini-game" as well as the whole hacking process, around the thought that people have to heavily multitask in order to stay safe.
With the removal of NPCs from the sites, it will be possible to fly around a cloaky exploration frigate in low and null, meaning the only "risk" element for exploration, would be pirates fielding probes themselves, as well as the usual SB and instalocking gate camps (but decent pilots will know how to avoid these). The current "risk" element in low/null sec exploration mainly derives from that fact that the NPCs are strong enough to be able to whelp your ship if not careful.
If it is too easy for people too just run from the pirates trying to probe you down in the site, then eventually pirates will stop trying to fit a probe launcher in order to hunt these targets down (because we will just fit our usual fits and go hunt for targets in asteroids instead :D), effectively removing the "risk" element from the low and nullsec sites.
I feel the balancing of the risk <-> reward aspect of the exploration will be intersting to follow. On one hand you might create a great new way for low/nullsec pilots to hunt for targets and as well as encouraging pure exploration pilots to be active in order to stay safe and be successful. On the other hand, you might just create another system with too lenient barriers of entry, that have too little risk, compared to the amount of reward (Yes, I'm looking at you FW plexing). |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:17:00 -
[384] - Quote
-snip-
Sorry didnt red well enough. My point was irrelevant. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7104
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:06:00 -
[385] - Quote
I agree with the OP.
This new 'Mini' hacking game is a waste of time. The jettison of loot cans in a 'free 4 all' race is definitely wrong.
DMC |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny Cha Ching PLC
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:22:00 -
[386] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:I agree with the OP.
This new 'Mini' hacking game is a waste of time. The jettison of loot cans in a 'free 4 all' race is definitely wrong.
DMC
like the current exploration contant is any different. how often did one clear a side so that some dbag in a lolnano-speeder can swoop by and empty the cans just before you are in range.
the free4all is part of the deal from day 1 of exploration. |
Andrea Griffin
350
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 23:44:00 -
[387] - Quote
Myself, for what it is worth (not much, I'm sure) I welcome CCP trying to innovate and make the game of exploration something more than 'activate the module, grab the stuff.' I don't know if I particularly like this concept but I'm more than willing to give it a try. We're going to get it whether we like it or not, so hey, might as well see how it turns out right?
The one thing that I find interesting is that there will not be any combat in these sites. This implies that a covert ops is all that is needed to farm items from these exploration sites. Is there any benefit at all to bringing an exploration fit battlecruiser or T3? Is there anything in the system that will benefit players that are more experienced, have better equipment, or have better skill at the hacking minigame?
I'm not concerned about "only being able to grab a portion of the canisters." I'm sure that it will be balanced in a way that a solo explorer - which is the vast, vast majority of explorers - won't see their income drop in a significant way. Bringing along a friend seems to bring zero monetary benefit to an explorer, but it could be helpful to have someone watch local for you while you do the little hacking game.
I do hope that the hacking game is complex enough, and that the results matter enough, that someone who is good at the game will get better drops than someone who is terrible at it - skills being a totally separate issue. Please make the hacking minigame something that requires a brain, some skill, and some practice to do well. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
421
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 02:31:00 -
[388] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Myself, for what it is worth (not much, I'm sure) I welcome CCP trying to innovate and make the game of exploration something more than 'activate the module, grab the stuff.' I don't know if I particularly like this concept but I'm more than willing to give it a try. We're going to get it whether we like it or not, so hey, might as well see how it turns out right?
CCP coming up with ideas is a very good idea. Throw ideas around and see what good stuff bubbles up.
We should still be vetoing bad ideas. I am of the opinion, twitchfest is a bad idea. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
916
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 03:40:00 -
[389] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Talsha Talamar wrote:That and Twitching really has no place in EVE in my humble opinion. Keep it to Dust. Eve is about strategy, tactics, blobs and tears; not hand-eye coordination :) Our hope is to encourage people together so that more of those things end up happening as well as providing some more depth to the Universe. For example we think that people trying to nab your scattered cans should be flagged in Crimewatch. Or players might choose to ambush people in these sites after they complete the hack not only to get a kill but also to grab all the stuff.
I think that's why this idea you are presenting is pissing alot of people off, quite frankly.
I personally don't like the idea of a mini-game to begin with, think it has no place in EVE, but let's ignore that. Let's get to the point of what I highlighted that you guys are doing wrong: too much focus on cooperation.
You know this game has always catered for solo- as well as groups. And the rewards has always been with the groups. Corporations, and later on Alliances when you added that. The benefit of strength in numbers. Before we had player built Outposts, people could dare to venture in small scale to null, now it's nearly impossible (some of us do, I'm one of them, but we're almost extinct). Small scale PvP is about dead. Old belt-ratting that was such a great way of finding small scale PvP opportunities have been killed off and been replaced by group-centered activities (Incursions, sov-upgrade blob hubs, etc). Even the Black Ops that was quite useful in small scale has now been another tool in the hands of the blobs.
Wormholes is one of the few bastions in EVE that caters for smaller scale PvP, but it's PvE is still very group centered, unfortunately. The only option left for small scale PvE has been lv4, or Exploration.
Adding incentitives for people to group-PvE is not bad. Making it worse for soloers, is. I can only speak for myself, but after playing this game for near a decade, and at points having had 10-20 accounts running same time, the only things that been interesting to me in last few years has been WH and Exploration. Thanks to you killing off small scale PvP and completely boosting the blobs to infinity, there really hasn't been much else left of the "old EVE". And frankly, this mini-game, while it disgust me completely, is made even worse with that pick-up mechanic.
I really hope you re-think. And I really wish your bosses would stop making this game for blobs alone. I know you don't care about old customers, and just want new ones (as long as they're more in number than the old ones), but one might hope you at least would show some respect to those who loved this game, spent alot of time/money on it, and pulled in new customers to CCP.
Countdown to you guys ruining WH's as well. AFK-cloaking in a system near you. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4844
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 04:46:00 -
[390] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote:Myself, for what it is worth (not much, I'm sure) I welcome CCP trying to innovate and make the game of exploration something more than 'activate the module, grab the stuff.' I don't know if I particularly like this concept but I'm more than willing to give it a try. We're going to get it whether we like it or not, so hey, might as well see how it turns out right?
CCP coming up with ideas is a very good idea. Throw ideas around and see what good stuff bubbles up. We should still be vetoing bad ideas. I am of the opinion, twitchfest is a bad idea. Click, wait a couple seconds, click, wait a couple seconds, etc. is a twitchfest to you? Maybe minesweeper is more your pace. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4844
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 04:50:00 -
[391] - Quote
Misanth wrote:You know this game has always catered for solo- as well as groups. And the rewards has always been with the groups. Corporations, and later on Alliances when you added that. The benefit of strength in numbers. Before we had player built Outposts, people could dare to venture in small scale to null, now it's nearly impossible (some of us do, I'm one of them, but we're almost extinct). Small scale PvP is about dead. Old belt-ratting that was such a great way of finding small scale PvP opportunities have been killed off and been replaced by group-centered activities (Incursions, sov-upgrade blob hubs, etc). Even the Black Ops that was quite useful in small scale has now been another tool in the hands of the blobs. Small gang PVP isn't dead at all. Just because there are lots of blobs doesn't mean you can't PVP in small groups as well, or even solo. I've done it many times.
Misanth wrote:Adding incentitives for people to group-PvE is not bad. Making it worse for soloers, is. I can only speak for myself, but after playing this game for near a decade, and at points having had 10-20 accounts running same time, the only things that been interesting to me in last few years has been WH and Exploration. I guess it's a good thing they're not making anything worse for soloers. |
Frying Doom
2458
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 04:52:00 -
[392] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I guess it's a good thing they're not making anything worse for soloers.
Unless you want to mine in a Wormhole. Any spelling and grammatical errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4844
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 05:06:00 -
[393] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: I guess it's a good thing they're not making anything worse for soloers.
Unless you want to mine in a Wormhole. That's really the only gripe I have about this entire thing, and I don't even play in WH space. Not sure how CCP expects ice miners in WH space to prevent being blown up by cloaked ships all the time. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 07:25:00 -
[394] - Quote
I really don't get the argument that this mechanic is twitchy. Have you guys ever PvP'd in anything smaller than a battleship? When you guys have flown a frig, or ninja salvaged with mission aggro, or bit off more than you can chew and had to escape a 1v3(and succeeded), then you can talk about twitchy gameplay. As is, this mechanic isn't even remotely twitchy.
The only people this new mechanic discriminates against are those who play drunk, but that's what mining is for. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 07:37:00 -
[395] - Quote
Garresh wrote:The only people this new mechanic discriminates against are those who play drunk, but that's what mining is for.
Again I'd like to bring up bad internet connections. Try living in rural areas where substantial packet-loss occurs like all the time. Oh the fun that'll be had watching 90% of the loot drift into the void, because half your clicks were swallowed by the net demon. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4845
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 07:48:00 -
[396] - Quote
Sorry about your bad internet, but that puts you at a disadvantage for a lot more things in this game than just exploration. The game shouldn't be balanced around shoddy connections. |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 07:54:00 -
[397] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Sorry about your bad internet, but that puts you at a disadvantage for a lot more things in this game than just exploration. The game shouldn't be balanced around shoddy connections.
I hate to agree with this, because some allowance for lag is necessary in game design, but really, it's like 4 seconds. You've got time to react even if it lags. just click 2-3 times instead of once every 4 seconds. Seriously, depending on how a game is coded, packet loss is like the one thing in computing where clicking more actually *does* make it go faster. Well, sort of. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 12:28:00 -
[398] - Quote
Garresh wrote:I really don't get the argument that this mechanic is twitchy. Have you guys ever PvP'd in anything smaller than a battleship? When you guys have flown a frig, or ninja salvaged with mission aggro, or bit off more than you can chew and had to escape a 1v3(and succeeded), then you can talk about twitchy gameplay. As is, this mechanic isn't even remotely twitchy.
The only people this new mechanic discriminates against are those who play drunk, but that's what mining is for. Given that my last Combat PvP was over 600 days ago, I can't say that I recall if it was twichy or not.
However I'm not sure where you got the idea that the new loot barf isn't twitchy, it looked like a game of wack-a-mole, click on as many loot items as you can in 30seconds. |
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 12:44:00 -
[399] - Quote
At the moment, we know very little about the changes.
The only thing the said was an introduction of the minigame and the vanishing loot.
What the minigame will be or how it will inpact the game is at this point unknown.
The vanishing loot looks not only stupid from a game perspective but is also quite silly seen from the 'simulation' aspect of the game. I hack a mainframe and when succesfull it ejects cans with computerparts into space! I just don't think it is plausible. The clicking afterwards is said to be for encouraging more group exploration but as far as we know now it will mostly benefit players doing it solo with their multipel alts standby to collect the cans.
But all this is actually more of a side issue. The fundamental changes to exploration skills and the new modules raise more questions.
- Will every site be detectible with just a sisters probe and some extra mid slots? Will there be very difficult to find sites requiring high skills and dedicated scanning ships? (please say yes to the latter)
-Given the new mid slot modules, is there a plan to increase the mid slots on the scanning ships? We already need two for an analyser and codebreaker.
- Do you get rid of the unknown category?
- Do the mag sites still require an analyser and a salvager or will one module be enough. If a salvager is stilll necessary, can we also use salvage drones?
- Are there plans for a new catagory of sites, since apparently we lose gravimetric. (lost moons, brown dwarfs or other deep space stuff look re,..)
Thanks
|
Andrea Griffin
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 12:51:00 -
[400] - Quote
Misanth is correct in that solo content has slowly been constrained and constricted out of this game. I don't know if these changes make it solo un-friendly, though. Getting all the loot requires more than one person. If the loot one person can collect is comparable to what you can collect already, I don't see what the problem is. Also, removal of NPCs from the sites makes it more solo friendly, since you can fit for evasion, probing, and cargo and not worry much about fitting for combat.
As long as income is relatively unchanged (or goes up a bit) I don't see how the change is unfriendly to solo activity. Maybe I'm missing something important, though. Convince me. My mind is so open that my brain might have fallen out. : > CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
|
Ager Agemo
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 15:41:00 -
[401] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:At the moment, we know very little about the changes.
The only thing the said was an introduction of the minigame and the vanishing loot.
What the minigame will be or how it will inpact the game is at this point unknown.
The vanishing loot looks not only stupid from a game perspective but is also quite silly seen from the 'simulation' aspect of the game. I hack a mainframe and when succesfull it ejects cans with computerparts into space! I just don't think it is plausible. The clicking afterwards is said to be for encouraging more group exploration but as far as we know now it will mostly benefit players doing it solo with their multipel alts standby to collect the cans.
But all this is actually more of a side issue. The fundamental changes to exploration skills and the new modules raise more questions.
- Will every site be detectible with just a sisters probe and some extra mid slots? Will there be very difficult to find sites requiring high skills and dedicated scanning ships? (please say yes to the latter)
-Given the new mid slot modules, is there a plan to increase the mid slots on the scanning ships? We already need two for an analyser and codebreaker.
- Do you get rid of the unknown category?
- Do the mag sites still require an analyser and a salvager or will one module be enough. If a salvager is stilll necessary, can we also use salvage drones?
- Are there plans for a new catagory of sites, since apparently we lose gravimetric. (lost moons, brown dwarfs or other deep space stuff look re,..)
Thanks
you could argue you are unlocking the vacuum sealing, the lost of pressure would eject everything outside at ludicrous speeds, and since that stuff is not radiation shielded it gets obliterated by cosmic radiation. |
Talisa Latarien
Dark Tempest Enterprises IMPERIAL LEGI0N
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:02:00 -
[402] - Quote
First off, an apology if I missed something in the last 3 pages of this impressive threadnaught, but that's just too much speculation to read.
Second, not entirely sure if two (actually, three, scanning included) minigames are necessary when one ought to be enough, at least when it comes to hacking. Now, when did a blueprint or some data stored in a derelict ship suddenly turn into a physical object that has to fly out of it?
If it has to be hacking, shouldn't it be more about one minigame where you attempt to capture nodes (kudos to someone mentioning Deus Ex 3), and some of these nodes might contain data of interest, while others could be mostly useless. The whole "board" could be randomly generated, with obstacles, security hubs and all that, and some chance could also be involved based on character skills. The more data nodes someone tries to hack, the more chance of being caught by ice, and then you get nothing, and the system locks up for you for a considerable time. So it's like gambling - know when to bet and when to walk home with what you already have.
Naturally, having more people cooperate could be good to take more nodes within the time that system security is looking for them, and there will always be more nodes that are left behind, unhacked, without having a feeling of a cookie taken out of your mouth (already jettisonned, but not gathered loot).
Also, there should be no competition on who hacks first. That wouldn't be EvE. Once someone starts hacking, it's all his (and his corps) alone. Don't want to lose a site to them? Kill them, blow their ships up. Any PvP-related action against the hacker should probably break the hacking attempt (in hisec, it would also spawn CONCORD, unless legal reasons for engagement exist).
Anyway, these were my personal thoughts on what could be a better solution. Not sure if CCP is still reading this thread, and since this game is full of Special Snowflakes(tm) like me, I wouldn't hold my breath that for this particular idea to get any regard.
One thing obvious from this thread is that at least half the posters here feel some concern regarding the catch-the-loot mechanic, and that concern will probably stay till it is player-testable on SiSi. What I fear, however, is that by then the question of "how to balance it" will be the only one asked, and the fact that it is to be implemented will be carved in stone by then, if not already. Ah well, that ought to get me sad for one evening, go grab a beer and some horror flick, and be done with it. |
Haulie Berry
584
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:09:00 -
[403] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frying Doom wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: I guess it's a good thing they're not making anything worse for soloers.
Unless you want to mine in a Wormhole. That's really the only gripe I have about this entire thing, and I don't even play in WH space. Not sure how CCP expects ice miners in WH space to prevent being blown up by cloaked ships all the time.
Be careful? Put a scout on any holes in the system?
Collapse any holes and keep a DSP out to look for new sigs?
Living in a WH is supposed to be a pain in the ass, so the argument that safely mining in WHs will take a little bit of extra effort doesn't really tug at the old heartstrings too much. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:26:00 -
[404] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:I agree with the OP.
This new 'Mini' hacking game is a waste of time. The jettison of loot cans in a 'free 4 all' race is definitely wrong.
DMC like the current exploration contant is any different. how often did one clear a side so that some dbag in a lolnano-speeder can swoop by and empty the cans just before you are in range. the free4all is part of the deal from day 1 of exploration. If anything, this aspect is going away as a conflict driver.
My corp recently went to war with someone who did that, until we looted/ransomed back the value of what was stolen + war fees. With the new loot barf...boo hoo.. he took some cans that were going to disappear anyway... who cares? |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 17:34:00 -
[405] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote: We should still be vetoing bad ideas. I am of the opinion, twitchfest is a bad idea.
Click, wait a couple seconds, click, wait a couple seconds, etc. is a twitchfest to you? Maybe minesweeper is more your pace. You click and sit there for 4 seconds, waiting for a ~500m/s tractor beam to get the can. Others will be flying a nano frig to the can and get two to your one, if not three.
I wonder if a cruiser will even be mechanically capable of grabbing as many as a frig based on the dispersion rate.
Garresh wrote:I really don't get the argument that this mechanic is twitchy. Have you guys ever PvP'd in anything smaller than a battleship? When you guys have flown a frig, or ninja salvaged with mission aggro, or bit off more than you can chew and had to escape a 1v3(and succeeded), then you can talk about twitchy gameplay. As is, this mechanic isn't even remotely twitchy.
The only people this new mechanic discriminates against are those who play drunk, but that's what mining is for. Yes, and that doesn't mesh with the feel of a methodical academic activity like exploration. It's 95% sneaking around in a cloaked ship, probing and the hacking minigame. In the new form, it's solo PvE with no NPC adversary. Like mining. A great activity for drunk people to lose ships at do solo. If they wanted to ninja salvage in a nano slasher, they would be doing just that.
Also, apparently you've never had your client freeze/blank screen for 5 seconds before. Mine does at least every other day and I hear people ***** about it on coms on a daily basis. Thankfully, most of EvE is "slow paced" enough to where 99% of the time it doesn't matter at all. Yet.
|
Ivoto
CrapCorp Holdings
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 19:56:00 -
[406] - Quote
It probably sucks hearing you ideas are awful, Devs, but this idea is ******.
Clicking dissolving cans? Really? Put this on SiSi so you can have more people tell you how awful this idea is.
Better yet, put this on the Odyssey info page. "NEW in Odyssey, dissolving cans that destroy loot!"
Seriously, what is the logic behind dissolving cans? I can eject **** from my cargo and it stays there for eons. What makes these cans different?
Perhaps SiSi will change my mind, but this content sucks. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 20:54:00 -
[407] - Quote
Ivoto wrote: Seriously, what is the logic behind dissolving cans?
Well apparently despite having a jury rigging skill in the game and knowing what will happen to this loot, we are incapable of jury rigging a cargo container to the wreck to capture this depressurized explosion of fragile containers. |
Andrea Griffin
356
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 22:09:00 -
[408] - Quote
Ivoto wrote:Seriously, what is the logic behind dissolving cans? I can eject **** from my cargo and it stays there for eons. What makes these cans different? Space magic. The same space magic that gives your missiles limited range, ensures your ship is always "right side up", and limits your drone capabilities to 5 per ship regardless of your total bandwidth.
There is a place where logic has to stop for the sake of gameplay. I'm not saying that the gameplay presented here is good or bad, just that the idea of using "It isn't logical!" isn't a very good one when we're talking about immortal space ship pilots, bumping without physical damage to either party, and instantaneous communication between pilots through wormholes. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Warcalibre
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 01:14:00 -
[409] - Quote
I guess I'll be the first to say it:
2 pilots, 1 canister?
... |
Arne Aratur
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 01:18:00 -
[410] - Quote
Can we make the salvage drones do the tedious work? If not: how will it not be tedious? |
|
Ivoto
CrapCorp Holdings
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 02:20:00 -
[411] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Ivoto wrote:Seriously, what is the logic behind dissolving cans? I can eject **** from my cargo and it stays there for eons. What makes these cans different? Space magic. The same space magic that gives your missiles limited range, ensures your ship is always "right side up", and limits your drone capabilities to 5 per ship regardless of your total bandwidth. There is a place where logic has to stop for the sake of gameplay. I'm not saying that the gameplay presented here is good or bad, just that the idea of using "It isn't logical!" isn't a very good one when we're talking about immortal space ship pilots, bumping without physical damage to either party, and instantaneous communication between pilots through wormholes. A decent argument if it werent for the fact that every other in game container doesnt disappear in a minute.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 14:05:00 -
[412] - Quote
Just had a thought about the changes...
Have CCP re-written the Rookie tutorials?
Now that would be funny if they forgot. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1293
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:23:00 -
[413] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Just had a thought about the changes...
Have CCP re-written the Rookie tutorials?
Now that would be funny if they forgot.
CCP doesn't document a damn thing. They leave that up to die hard gluttons for punishment that pay for the privilege. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 22:34:00 -
[414] - Quote
I was trying to parse the demo at fanfest but couldn't tell. Signatures still spawning within 0 to 5 aus of a celestial? |
Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 00:37:00 -
[415] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So lets break it on down:
EVE Players: Give us new stuff in the game
(CCP gives new "never before seen in EVE" stuffs)
EVE Players: Noooooooo, we've never seen this before but we already know we don't like it, give us stuff that looks exactly like stuff we've seen a million times!!!
(CCP gives stuff seen millions of times before)
EVE Players: CCP is bad because they never give new stuff.
Conclusion: you couldn't pay me enough to work for ccp in any capacity where i had to look at any forum ever.
Oh god. This thread. My sides. "It's different! I'm scared! I hate it! I have less than half the information but more than a whole opinion!"
You precious little creatures.
I'm looking forward to it. It's new content. It's something different. Now I can bring my Corp newbies along to help me catch cans while we chat on TS. They can have a cut of the lootz and do something inbetween having no SP and mining in a Venture. Win-win.
Those of you who don't like it, get out of my sites. __________________ Chief Executive Officer Instar Heavy Industries |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 01:37:00 -
[416] - Quote
Oh, I remember walking down the side walk in the city once as a kid. Huge commotion up ahead near a local bar of ill repute. When I got there I saw this big, burly, hairy, naked, man with lots of little cuts on him. The sweat rolling off him so thick he could have turned the Sahara into an oasis and he breathed like some angry rhino after one too many charges. He was ramming his genitals into a motorcycle exhaust pipe with his eyes rolled back in his head while mumbling incoherently to Jesus. All around him and the bike were alcohol bottles and little bags of pills. Some one was looking at one of the bags and turned around to the crowd and said three simple letters: PCP.
At that point I only had half the information. However, I didnGÇÖt need to take PCP to know and understand that it was some REALLY bad ****.
*Watches the fanfest exploration video excerpt again...* |
Talisa Latarien
Dark Tempest Enterprises IMPERIAL LEGI0N
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 11:44:00 -
[417] - Quote
Viceran Phaedra wrote:
Oh god. This thread. My sides. "It's different! I'm scared! I hate it! I have less than half the information but more than a whole opinion!" ...
Like I said in my previous post, there is but one problem here. Yes, it is true, we don't have nearly half the info. Yes, we can't really make anything more than educated guesses as to how good/bad/ugly this is going to be.
The problem is, once we get the system to be sampled on SiSi as part of this fine game, it's more than likely there to stay, no matter what, even if it turns out to be a complete disaster. I'd love to be wrong about it all. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
1389
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 12:15:00 -
[418] - Quote
Having thought a little about this, I think the animation where they spew out into space looks fantastic and is perfectly realistic. But turning it into a mini-game seems odd. Why exactly are they spontaneously disappearing for no reason? They should just continue to exist until you pick them up because there will still be a motivation tog et them fast. If you don't react fast enough to get one you've have to travel long distances to get it later and waste a load of time.
I think where they have tried to make it some kind of mini-game that's easier with friends is where it started to feel like some random little unrealistic mini-game. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Talisa Latarien
Dark Tempest Enterprises IMPERIAL LEGI0N
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 13:00:00 -
[419] - Quote
Indeed, make their disappearance player-related. Make them white to everyone, and if there is someone else, it's the other player, that adds the challenge, by picking cans that you probably wanted to pick yourself. Then, having more buddies is a boon, because you can take more for your corp, before the other guys manage to pick their share.
And in low/null, this would probably turn into a damn good shooting alley, so long as there are still cans on grid.
If nobody is coming, it's still possible to pick all the cans, but they should probably decelerate at such a rate to cover a sphere approximately 100km in radius, therefore making the gathering process somewhat slow, even with a tractor beam. So you can either fly cloaked, w/o mwd, or uncloak and present your nice shiny boat to everyone interested, but gather cans faster.
Win-win scenario. At least, in my book. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny Cha Ching PLC
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 14:20:00 -
[420] - Quote
Ivoto wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote:Ivoto wrote:Seriously, what is the logic behind dissolving cans? I can eject **** from my cargo and it stays there for eons. What makes these cans different? Space magic. The same space magic that gives your missiles limited range, ensures your ship is always "right side up", and limits your drone capabilities to 5 per ship regardless of your total bandwidth. There is a place where logic has to stop for the sake of gameplay. I'm not saying that the gameplay presented here is good or bad, just that the idea of using "It isn't logical!" isn't a very good one when we're talking about immortal space ship pilots, bumping without physical damage to either party, and instantaneous communication between pilots through wormholes. A decent argument if it werent for the fact that every other in game container doesnt disappear in a minute.
every other container did not just burst out of a wreck at drift for 50k+ years (or whatever the time span since the collaps of the eve-gate is). normal jet-cans last for 2h. anchored containers last longer. those old loot cans don't. blame it on vacuum ablation and avaricious suppliers back on old mother earth.
|
|
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
596
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 14:36:00 -
[421] - Quote
Viceran Phaedra wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:So lets break it on down:
EVE Players: Give us new stuff in the game
(CCP gives new "never before seen in EVE" stuffs)
EVE Players: Noooooooo, we've never seen this before but we already know we don't like it, give us stuff that looks exactly like stuff we've seen a million times!!!
(CCP gives stuff seen millions of times before)
EVE Players: CCP is bad because they never give new stuff.
Conclusion: you couldn't pay me enough to work for ccp in any capacity where i had to look at any forum ever. Oh god. This thread. My sides. "It's different! I'm scared! I hate it! I have less than half the information but more than a whole opinion!" You precious little creatures. I'm looking forward to it. It's new content. It's something different. Now I can bring my Corp newbies along to help me catch cans while we chat on TS. They can have a cut of the lootz and do something inbetween having no SP and mining in a Venture. Win-win. Those of you who don't like it, get out of my sites. There is a difference between new content and new good content. Seems like you don't care but that doesn't mean others shouldn't.
I don't think the complaint is that it is different. The complaint is on the surface the idea sounds really bad. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Manacubus
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 01:18:00 -
[422] - Quote
Have I wasted my time training this 30 day rangefinding skill?!?
Also, the idea that I train these skills for months only to scan down a site as easily as someone with far less investment in skills and then have the shiny loot disappear at the end is ******* DISGUSTING, and churns my stomach :( |
Manacubus
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 01:44:00 -
[423] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:I'm sure that it will be balanced in a way that a solo explorer - which is the vast, vast majority of explorers - won't see their income drop in a significant way.
Can I please have some of whatever it is you're smoking? |
Vexidious
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 02:48:00 -
[424] - Quote
Eve really doesn't seem like the right kind of game for a mechanic that can be described as "loot spew". DNF called. They said they want their devs back...
The worst part is that there doesn't seem to be any real point to the mechanic aside from giving players a reason to bring an alt along. I mean, it isn't like you're making any meaningful decisions aside from clicking on the shiny. There aren't good cans and bad cans; its just click, wait, click, wait. There is no thought, no skill, no decisions. That doesn't sound like a good mechanic to me.
Really, it doesn't even encourage group play, since the person tagging along can't even help with the hack - which is really the only part that seems to be even slightly interesting. This would need to be wildly profitable to make we want to tag along for this type of thing.
Really, I don't see any way to describe this change as anything other than utter failure. |
Dian Voken
Womp Rat Slayers United
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 10:15:00 -
[425] - Quote
Viceran Phaedra wrote:
Those of you who don't like it, get out of my sites.
I couldn't agree more with this right here. If you don't like the changes that CCP is making to exploring then then simply don't explore.
No one is forcing you to be an explorer and if you feel that exploring is detracting from the core values of the game then don't support it by not participating in it (CCP knows how many people participate in the different professions and you better believe they'll be keeping a close eye on how many people participate in the revamped exploration profession).
As for the rest of us, we'll be better off because when TQ comes back up in a few hours there will be less competition for sites if you just back away from the new thing you don't agree with. |
Lea Severy
Squad Severy
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 14:54:00 -
[426] - Quote
So much negativity in this thread.
The new mini-game mechanic for relic/data sites is absolutely awesome in my opinion. It creates a very real "link" to the actual skills that affect hacking/analyzing, since you really need some decent virus strength to not blow up every site you find. You can improve your own virus in several ways and even a strength of +10 can mean the difference between blowing it up or unlocking it.
But, logically considered, the scatter mechanic for the loot seems kind of unfitting. It's obvious that the idea behind this was getting more than one player into exploration sites, but the rest of the feature seems quite solo-style to me. If you implement a scatter mechanic then you should implement a coop hacking feature aswell. What is the guy with the lower hacking skills going to do the whole time? Just follow around the hacker and steal him some loot? If scanning the site itself was a little harder, or as hard as it was pre-odyssey, teaming up would still make sense - one guy scans, the other one hacks. But it really feels extremely solo-able in general except for the scattering mechanic.
Change this. The aim was to make exploration a valid profession from the beginning on. Exploration will be absolutely awesome if this gets fixed.
|
Haulie Berry
946
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 15:02:00 -
[427] - Quote
So I've spent the last two nights doing a lot of exploration in low and null sec.
When I first heard about the minigame in the FF presentation, I thought it was a thematically poor choice for Eve, but wasn't particularly upset about it otherwise.
Having spent a lot of time doing sites on both sisi and TQ now, though, I really quite like it.
First of all, the scatter mechanic is really not a problem. It basically provides a way to make it potentially valuable, but not necessary, to bring a friend along. I routinely get everything of value from the sites I hack, only losing an item here or there from the very richest (relic sites with 8+ salvage stacks, for instance). i'm pretty sure the people who dislike this mechanic are still cluelessly trying to grab every last can at random.
On average, I'm making significantly more from data sites and VASTLY more from relic sites. My run in low sec exceeded 100m isk per hour by a wide margin. Performance in null has been slightly lower (mainly due to a shortage of sites, and bugged sites) but still very high.
The minigame adds a mechanism that forces the explorer to be both exposed and distracted, which adds an element of risk that just wasn't present in the previous system, and the amount of time it takes is based on player interaction rather than whether or not the RNG favors your analyzer on this particular cycle. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 15:06:00 -
[428] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: On average, I'm making significantly more from data sites and VASTLY more from relic sites.
Per site or per hour? In w-space the time sink has increased 3 fold.
HTFU!...for the children! |
Haulie Berry
947
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 15:11:00 -
[429] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Haulie Berry wrote: On average, I'm making significantly more from data sites and VASTLY more from relic sites.
Per site or per hour? In w-space the time sink has increased 3 fold.
Both per site and per hour. Previously, in low-sec, I completely ignored data and relic sites in favor of pursuing potential PHAT LEWT in DED sites. Now I'm doing the complete opposite, because the data and relic sites have had such consistently high output.
I can't comment on w-space. A friend of mine mentioned to me that the sleeper spawns have gotten much more difficult, but he also said that the loot they're getting from the sites is vastly better as well (which makes sense, since the loot tables were made MUCH more generous). |
AndromacheDarkstar
Zebra Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
772
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 15:20:00 -
[430] - Quote
The new system is amazing.
The skills required are almost perfectly balanced allowing you to run null sites with skills at 4 without rigs but taking a bit more time, The mini game is allot of fun but very easy to understand. The loot income is fantastic and very well balanced for the work and risk. The Scatter mechanic adds an active challenge to the process and being able to see the names of cans allows you to pick and choose after cargo scanning. The whole process is involved and i have never enjoyed earning isk as much as i have from exploration since the changes. Join the ZC Pub chat channel today and talk about joining-áZebra corp, hands down the best PVP corp in EVE keeping CFC killboards in the green singlehandedly |
|
cheese monkey
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
150
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 16:51:00 -
[431] - Quote
Totally agree.
Hate the idea of chasing cans down and hate the new mini game.
This is internet spaceships.... not candy crush!! |
Gorgoth24
Sickology
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 17:29:00 -
[432] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though:
Colourblind People We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.
Soloing We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!
Twitch Gameplay We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself.
I, for one, think this is a great way of allowing solo play while incentivizing group play. Tweaks are welcome, but I love this Idea.
Most of the hate seems to come from first-time explorers that don't like the system in relation with the rest of EVE. The feedback I've been getting from people who actively explored pre and post Odyssey is overwhelmingly positive, minus the crowding factor in high sec (which is also a good push factor into lowsec and good for EVE imo) |
Armtoe
Shadowland Rangers Eternal Syndicate
260
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 17:56:00 -
[433] - Quote
cheese monkey wrote:Totally agree.
Hate the idea of chasing cans down and hate the new mini game.
This is internet spaceships.... not candy crush!!
I agree - I hate the new minigame. Eve is supposed to be about you against the other players in a sandbox. Hacking used to be just that - you would get to the can start hacking and spam ds while hoping that some other player is not sitting cloaked in the room with you. You had to keep one eye on the system and the other on the rats. You could even do it in a combat ship trying to bait folk to come on at you. Now the minigame pops up and places a large screen (which I cant figure out how to resize) across your monitor effectively disconnecting you from the rest of the game. Where you should be keeping an eye on your fellow players, now your playing whack a mole. Furthermore, given the nature of the minigame, you are effectively forced to use exploration ships, thus making the game more cookiecutter while rendering any attempt at baiting in a nonconventional ship obvious. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1575
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:08:00 -
[434] - Quote
Gorgoth24 wrote:
I, for one, think this is a great way of allowing solo play while incentivizing group play. Tweaks are welcome, but I love this Idea.
Most of the hate seems to come from first-time explorers that don't like the system in relation with the rest of EVE. The feedback I've been getting from people who actively explored pre and post Odyssey is overwhelmingly positive, minus the crowding factor in high sec (which is also a good push factor into lowsec and good for EVE imo)
I've seen the exact opposite. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Dokten Ral
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Get Off My Lawn
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:19:00 -
[435] - Quote
Here's what I'll tell you mighty DevTeam: while I find the hacking minigame kinda frustrating, I no longer ignore Data sites immediately on finding them because of their lack of profit and the fact the the gameplay used to be shining my red flashlight at the can and alt-tabbing until it opened 10m later. |
Haulie Berry
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:22:00 -
[436] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Gorgoth24 wrote:
I, for one, think this is a great way of allowing solo play while incentivizing group play. Tweaks are welcome, but I love this Idea.
Most of the hate seems to come from first-time explorers that don't like the system in relation with the rest of EVE. The feedback I've been getting from people who actively explored pre and post Odyssey is overwhelmingly positive, minus the crowding factor in high sec (which is also a good push factor into lowsec and good for EVE imo)
I've seen the exact opposite.
I was an avid explorer before, and I really like the new system, but I actually took the time to learn how it worked and spent a few hours using it before heading to the forum to ragequit.
They were obviously looking for a mechanism intended to make a system where solo explorers aren't penalized, but it isn't completely idiotic to bring a friend. So, they increased the loot, and gave us scatter containers. Since a solo explorer can grab most of the valuable loot most of the time, on average, they should be making more. Meanwhile, getting all of the loot all of the time requires two people.
It's still more efficient to explore solo, but it's not completely pants-on-head idiotic to bring a friend along. |
Killian Redbeard
Mindhead Cosmic Conditioning SoulWing Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:29:00 -
[437] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: The minigame adds a mechanism that forces the explorer to be both exposed and distracted, which adds an element of risk that just wasn't present in the previous system, and the amount of time it takes is based on player interaction rather than whether or not the RNG favors your analyzer on this particular cycle.
In that case, should they change salvaging to be a mini game also? Eliminate the RNG in salvaging. Come up with a schematic of the ship you are salvaging and play Operation. Instead of the big red nose beeping when you touch the side, the ship blows up damaging yours.
Not impressed with the mini-game right now. Maybe they will improve it but don't care for it right now. I would have preferred, instead of putting a flat board game on my screen and you just click, that each of those nodes was a gate you had to unlock using the hacker/codebreaker. Kinda of like a maze. Multiple paths to get to the final room. Turn the firewalls into encounters with Sleeper AI.
Kinda of like in incursions where you have contest between fleets to get the site down, You would have multiple paths so fleets could take different directions to reach the reward. |
Haulie Berry
955
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:32:00 -
[438] - Quote
Killian Redbeard wrote:Haulie Berry wrote: The minigame adds a mechanism that forces the explorer to be both exposed and distracted, which adds an element of risk that just wasn't present in the previous system, and the amount of time it takes is based on player interaction rather than whether or not the RNG favors your analyzer on this particular cycle.
In that case, should they change salvaging to be a mini game also? Eliminate the RNG in salvaging. Come up with a schematic of the ship you are salvaging and play Operation. Instead of the big red nose beeping when you touch the side, the ship blows up damaging yours. Not impressed with the mini-game right now. Maybe they will improve it but don't care for it right now. I would have preferred, instead of putting a flat board game on my screen and you just click, that each of those nodes was a gate you had to unlock using the hacker/codebreaker. Kinda of like a maze. Multiple paths to get to the final room. Turn the firewalls into encounters with Sleeper AI. Kinda of like in incursions where you have contest between fleets to get the site down, You would have multiple paths so fleets could take different directions to reach the reward.
Yeah, that's a great idea, if you ignore the painfully obvious fact that they were trying to add some non-combat-oriented content to exploration. |
Orpheus Sin
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 20:08:00 -
[439] - Quote
Two ideas
1. Relic Sites>> Mini-game where you actually get out of your ship and enter the structure/abandoned ship and have to scan and such throughout the ship. Perhaps have a FPS mini-game in exploration sites.
2. Hacking Sites>> I like the mini-game...perhaps get out of your ship and enter the structure/abandoned ship and hook up to a computer terminal or something.
Just ideas... |
Haulie Berry
966
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 20:12:00 -
[440] - Quote
Orpheus Sin wrote:Two ideas
1. Relic Sites>> Mini-game where you actually get out of your ship and enter the structure/abandoned ship and have to scan and such throughout the ship. Perhaps have a FPS mini-game in exploration sites.
2. Hacking Sites>> I like the mini-game...perhaps get out of your ship and enter the structure/abandoned ship and hook up to a computer terminal or something.
Just ideas...
Yeah, they prototyped a get-out-of-your-ship thing, and they posted about it, and the tl;dr version of the post was, "Yeah, it's kinda cool. It's also not happening any time soon, if ever."
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023395 |
|
Staten Island
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:45:00 -
[441] - Quote
Anybody know whether sleepers were overlooked when npc were removed from hacking sites - or is it intentional for them to still be there? |
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 05:05:00 -
[442] - Quote
New mini-game to actually hack into the system is fine. I'd rather see 2 different mini-games, because it's kind of non-immersive to be digging up artifacts by exactly the same mechanism used to break into computer systems, but maybe that is planned for later.
New loot pinata is not - to the point that it turns me off from hacking altogether. I've spent 2 days doing the training tutorials and doing some sites to see if I just was missing the point, and no... I just really don't want to play Super Mario Galaxy.
I'll check back in a few weeks to see if the system changes. If not, I have an alt with level 5 skills that is going to be very permanently unemployed. |
Iszi
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 05:46:00 -
[443] - Quote
When I saw this on the fanfest twitch stream, I thought:
Well there's one thing I have NO interest in.
And I felt a little disappointed that I would never get the chance to perfect scanning/hacking/archaeology before it was dumbed down.
Ah well. I hope CCP doesn't disregard it's long term players for the fickle big money crowd. |
|
CCP Bayesian
847
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 08:49:00 -
[444] - Quote
Staten Island wrote:Anybody know whether sleepers were overlooked when npc were removed from hacking sites - or is it intentional for them to still be there?
Intentional. :) EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
The Shadowman
The Xyndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 11:18:00 -
[445] - Quote
How about some drones to collect the loot for us? |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
699
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 12:43:00 -
[446] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Staten Island wrote:Anybody know whether sleepers were overlooked when npc were removed from hacking sites - or is it intentional for them to still be there? Intentional. :)
Digital Circuitry - Data Site... is this intentional that it hasn't been changed? it still has rats, gates and everything... it's in sansha space... I filled a bug report. Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
699
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 12:44:00 -
[447] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Staten Island wrote:Anybody know whether sleepers were overlooked when npc were removed from hacking sites - or is it intentional for them to still be there? Intentional. :) Digital Circuitry - Data Site... is this intentional that it hasn't been changed? it still has rats, gates and everything... it's in sansha space... I filled a bug report.
also, you should really consider seeding some data/relic sites in drone space. Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
|
CCP Bayesian
847
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 13:08:00 -
[448] - Quote
Thanks for any and all bug reports it makes tracking problems down much easier. We're actually going to do a pass on the distribution and loot for the next release. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
506
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 13:17:00 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for any and all bug reports it makes tracking problems down much easier. We're actually going to do a pass on the distribution and loot for the next release. Release as in 1.1 or 1.0.4? |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1156
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 13:24:00 -
[450] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Staten Island wrote:Anybody know whether sleepers were overlooked when npc were removed from hacking sites - or is it intentional for them to still be there? Intentional. :)
Would have been nice for the FF presentation to allude to that. We could have stocked up on relics, datacores and decryptors due to shortages because frankly the time sink is too big in the same way our k-space counterparts dumped their stockpiles due to the ease of access and soon to be overabundance. HTFU!...for the children! |
|
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Here Be Dragons
34
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:23:00 -
[451] - Quote
After the 1.0.3 patch, has the spawning of sites been minimized or something? They days before 1.0.3 i found a decent amount of sites, but as of right now and yesterday, there seems to be a lot less sites. |
Kor'el Izia
62
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:33:00 -
[452] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for any and all bug reports it makes tracking problems down much easier. We're actually going to do a pass on the distribution and loot for the next release. Need more details about what excatly you are about to change, or a small devblog |
FireusI
Famz Corp.
8
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:20:00 -
[453] - Quote
ok i done a few site now but after scanning a wormhole is there any chance that the site can change from unknown to known as a wormhole as i always on the look out for hiding site but this one still stays as unknown. After i have scaned down.
|
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Here Be Dragons
34
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:52:00 -
[454] - Quote
Another thing i noticed today, those nodes you click to reveal the path in the hacking minigame, today they've been a bit laggy or something, as when i press one node nothing happens, and i can keep on pressing it and nothing happens, but if i press another node, suddenly both unlocks. Anyone else noticed that? |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1578
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:59:00 -
[455] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote: Once again CCP demonstrates that w-space is the red headed step child. Can't wait for other upcoming changes to w-space to make long term habitation all but impossible as CCP has stated several times over the years following its inception. I suppose, if, what I and other's suspect, its total butcuss that there's no reason you can't make it so.
Don't see how W-space is the bastard child, always thought that was lowsec.
Though tbh I actually think they should give up on the idea that WHs shouldn't be inhabitable, and make WH space what 0.0 should have been. The frontier. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Fon SaiHoc
University of Caille Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:10:00 -
[456] - Quote
Message to the DEVs, you broke the game for me with the new semi-automatic-we-give-it-all-up-front-without-effort-from-you exploration system. I seriously regret having dedicated two years and a half to EVE when i realize now that i am seen as a number. Real explorers are a low minority while the afkish mission runners and miners a big majority, so what if the few explorers leave EVE because of the new system, right? The majority of the afkish mission runners and miners wil be happy, now there is one more thing they can do with close to no effort and nearly afk. I know my three accounts which i will not renew at not much to you, three new players will make it up for that fast, but i think the players deserved to be treated as more than one number. I am not a gamer, btw, EVE was the only game i played. be well Fon |
Dorion Strag
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:45:00 -
[457] - Quote
I think that the issue with the new mag/radar sites is the combination of the 2 mini games. Personally I think both are potentially good mechanics but they don't mesh well with each-other because of the perceived loss of items upon successfully completing the hacking mini-game. If I (as a character) am smart/skilled enough to hack the thing successfully why am I not smart/skilled enough to recover the loot without losing some of it. If I was just going to scramble to grab it from the vacuum of space I could have just blown the thing open with a missile and scrambled to gather what i could that way.
On a side note I think that would be a cool way to go with it. The theme of the changes seems to be making exploration more accessible and giving people the option to just smash and grab sites resulting in a loss of items in comparison to leveling hacking/archeology and being able to recover loot without blowing some of it up/jettisoning it into space could work well.
All in all the big issue seems to be the perception of loss or being punished for success. Anyways, that's my 2 cents on it. |
Elaine Mari-Avarro
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:50:00 -
[458] - Quote
Mostly - I feel the same as Fon above.
I had a bad feelings about all this "making things easier" (they were already easy for any person with minimal IQ and imagination) and better, nicer or so. However I understand company needs of enlarge number of players, even if it means making part of game infantile, filling it with useles "nicest" stuff (at last there should be option to disable these "nicest jumps" part and other minor details). Personally I really don't like to be forced to "beign more happy".
Most of my fun from exploration - excitement from finding stuff and effort needed to do it, all this "maybe there and maybe not" vanished. It becomes like minning or other activity such type. Jump, autoscan, deploy, ... *yawn*.
Exploration demanded skills, effort, dedication and patience - was somewhat "elite part" of the game (like other uncommon and not easy things to archieve) and opposite to "the big things" it was archieveable even alone or with small band of trusted friends - not easy thing in MMO, but many possibilities was this strong part of game which leads me there. Now - most of this is gone.
"Minigames"... well next step will be QTE-like fight, minning minigame, salvaging minigame? Wait! - undocking minigame. The last idea seems to be really urgent.
There're thousands of similiar games, more or less populated - why you make EVE just the same? |
|
CCP Bayesian
848
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:01:00 -
[459] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for any and all bug reports it makes tracking problems down much easier. We're actually going to do a pass on the distribution and loot for the next release. Release as in 1.1 or 1.0.4?
1.1, changing this sort of thing is something we'd do based on a large amount of data from how people are using the sites.
Problems in individual sites we'll obviously fix and patch as they happen. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
CCP Bayesian
848
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:03:00 -
[460] - Quote
Kor'el Izia wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for any and all bug reports it makes tracking problems down much easier. We're actually going to do a pass on the distribution and loot for the next release. Need more details about what excatly you are about to change, or a small devblog
Absolutely.
EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
Haulie Berry
992
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:06:00 -
[461] - Quote
Quote:Exploration demanded skills, effort, dedication and patience - was somewhat "elite part"
Dude. Who are you trying to fool with this ****?
No iteration of scanning has ever demanded skill.
The first iteration demanded patience or, at least, a good book to read between scans. |
Maddan69
Sickology
14
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:29:00 -
[462] - Quote
Exploration went from T3's and Ishtar pilots doing mag/radar sites to everyone and there mother using a covert ops to run them now. No risk for a covert ops pilot because if someone lands on grid you either warp off or cloak. This is horrible for low sec and null. The decryptor market is going to crash from the crazy amount you can get from data sites. The relic sites need a slight bump in salvage parts dropped though. |
Noomi Rahmada
Vicious Industrial Redrum Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 01:36:00 -
[463] - Quote
I feel the same as Fon SaiHec and Elaine Mari_Avarro
The whole point about scanning down the sites was the difficulty of learning how to do it - that made you kind of part of an elite group of people making money from a profession... now this patch made it so any idiot can scan down the sites... completely ruining that aspect of game play. Now 'Dumb' and 'Dumber' can do it thanks to the new scanning mechanic. Shame on you CCP.
I guess dumbing down games to cater for the masses is inevitable if all you care about is money. I wonder if the game's demographic has changed a lot recently with people coming to Eve from DUST? I hadn't noticed, but perhaps they had a lot of petitions about scanning, who knows.
Does CCP ever roll-back a devlopment when it is rubbish? Hope so.
Or Next we shall see space Pandas. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1159
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 03:59:00 -
[464] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Mr Kidd wrote: Once again CCP demonstrates that w-space is the red headed step child. Can't wait for other upcoming changes to w-space to make long term habitation all but impossible as CCP has stated several times over the years following its inception. I suppose, if, what I and other's suspect, its total butcuss that there's no reason you can't make it so.
Don't see how W-space is the bastard child, always thought that was lowsec. Though tbh I actually think they should give up on the idea that WHs shouldn't be inhabitable, and make WH space what 0.0 should have been. The frontier.
Nope, LS is still a bastard! ;) And w-space is what nullsec should be. Apparently, CCP thinks day tripping to w-space through low/null with a cap fleet in tow to run escalations only to have to wait days for a viable route back out was the original concept for w-space. IDK. What makes more sense? Habitation or non-habitation? HTFU!...for the children! |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
57
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 04:32:00 -
[465] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Mr Kidd wrote: Once again CCP demonstrates that w-space is the red headed step child. Can't wait for other upcoming changes to w-space to make long term habitation all but impossible as CCP has stated several times over the years following its inception. I suppose, if, what I and other's suspect, its total butcuss that there's no reason you can't make it so.
Don't see how W-space is the bastard child, always thought that was lowsec. Though tbh I actually think they should give up on the idea that WHs shouldn't be inhabitable, and make WH space what 0.0 should have been. The frontier.
No iteration in four years? Red headed step child. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
259
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 18:28:00 -
[466] - Quote
Did a Relic site on an alt yesterday, I understand how the strategizing comes in now, as you grab utilities, you have to decide what you want to use your limited boosts on since you only get so many. It's not just a bunch of random clicking like some think to get the most out of it.
The soundscape cues are a little too subtle and hard to hear though in many cases. I have to turn volume up quite a bit. |
Angang Ostus
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
75
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 00:12:00 -
[467] - Quote
Anybody who's worrying about lost loot in spew containers hasn't got the hang of it yet. You cargo scan the can and see what the #1, 2, and 3 things are that you want to nab and then go after only those kind of containers, i.e. data, equipment. You'll almost always be able to get all the valuable items if you prioritize. I was critical at first but actually hacking is an interesting challenge if you're focused on speed, and seeing what you can get from cans and having to choose the right spew containers to get what you want and leave the trash is good fun.
The fact that all relic and data cans look identical to the rest is immersion breaking though. And I feel like there should be some NPCs to liven things up. Maybe just randomly with a fairly low chance, and sometimes when you fail at hacking. The chance should increase as security level does, though this would conflict with the exploration frigates' hacking bonus being more important in lower security sites, as those ships can only field a few light drones and equip maybe one turret or launcher. And of course sleepers should remain in WH sites.
The changes to Astrometrics had to happen. Exploration is supposed to be something you can get into as a new player but you had to get your scanning skills up pretty high or it was tedious and frustrating to scan sites down all the way even in high sec often. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1580
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 01:50:00 -
[468] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Did a Relic site on an alt yesterday, I understand how the strategizing comes in now, as you grab utilities, you have to decide what you want to use your limited boosts on since you only get so many. It's not just a bunch of random clicking like some think to get the most out of it.
The soundscape cues are a little too subtle and hard to hear though in many cases. I have to turn volume up quite a bit.
Since utilities are randomly generated and not defined or acquired prior, makes it for the most part still just random clicking. Not to say there isn't strategy involved, but still more chance based than strategic.
The sound part I never noticed, but then again I rarely play with sound on or at any high level. Obligatory Eve has sound? CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
329
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 06:01:00 -
[469] - Quote
It would be interesting if the module got you cans from the wreck but you had to do the mini game to open the cans. if you fail the mini game you lose whatever is in the can. make them contractable items and you can sell loot instead of hacking it but the buyer and the seller wont know whats in it cept that its a parts can or a materials can etc.
basicaly like if you had encrypted cargo boxes. hacking device opens bay doors of derelict ship. cargo is locked in crates, crates must be hacked to get open. this would also be a reason to use the CQ.
now if only that werent so ******., Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Paul Uter
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 06:27:00 -
[470] - Quote
Why do you whine.
Exploration now has been properly dumbed down. Working as intended. |
|
Zuluzero
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 07:01:00 -
[471] - Quote
Exploration is dead for me now, I dislike the mine game, but I really hate the drop/loot thing. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 08:01:00 -
[472] - Quote
Angang Ostus wrote:The changes to Astrometrics had to happen. Exploration is supposed to be something you can get into as a new player but you had to get your scanning skills up pretty high or it was tedious and frustrating to scan sites down all the way even in high sec often.
What planet do you live on, exploration was a cow in the beginning, what you got for free with Apoc you had to go to a celestial and scan to find, it was a real niche. Apoc made it easy mode, it became popular, so the idiots at CCP decided it should be entry level and gave us the abomination that is Ody that is not really eve, its just space panda hand holding and have free bacon while we-¦re at it.
Eve has always been about time and thought, its not grind, grind doesn-¦t need thought, a sandbox should should just by its definition.
All those hailing Ody exploration changes are to my mind in want of wow in space and not a sandbox game where the unintended by the developers turns out to be the best selling points.
CCP is chasing money, they are not developing EvE the sandbox as an all encompassing world, they are all short term cash, they are just too engrossed to realise it. I got probes from the Rookie-á tutorial, they are indestructible, unforgettable and will never need to be replaced, but maybe i will eventually upgrade them to Sisters that are also unforgettable, indestructible and will never need to be replaced. CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
560
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 08:05:00 -
[473] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:Another thing i noticed today, those nodes you click to reveal the path in the hacking minigame, today they've been a bit laggy or something, as when i press one node nothing happens, and i can keep on pressing it and nothing happens, but if i press another node, suddenly both unlocks. Anyone else noticed that?
^this Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Lea Severy
Squad Severy
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 12:00:00 -
[474] - Quote
I absolutely disagree with the negative feedback in this thread. Why are some dudes so eager to be able to consider themselves "elite" in what they do in a computergame with space ships? It's a game, it's supposed to be fun and most importantly it should include as many people as possible.
I somehow get the impression that as soon as some part of the game gets patched/changed/IMPROVED, suddenly a horde of internet-space-hipsters comes crawling out of their holes and starts screaming around about how everyone and everything is bad, because now their activity can't be considered a niche anymore.
Odyssey is an absolutely gorgeous expansion; the player count is rising, which is very good (I think this game deserves a lot more active players and it's on the best way to get there).
So please, stop whining about this and try to see that change is good. If you work your way into the new exploration mechanics, you'll see that CCP actually did think it through (as they mostly do).
Peace, Severy |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:01:00 -
[475] - Quote
Lea Severy wrote: and most importantly it should include as many people as possible.
You wouldn't say that if it was your niche of the game that was suddenly overrun by low skilled farmers ruining your income and the enjoyment that you got from doing an activity in the past.
And i have to disagree with you also when you say CCP thought this through. Obviously they haven't. Granted i myself was naive to think it wouldn't be so bad but then i don't get paid for developing this game nor have the experience of doing so for 10 years or get help from a professional economist to figure things out. A lot more people fight now over the same sparse ressources. Had they thought this through then an adequate amount of new ressources had been added to account for the number of new players doing it. The spatial atunments and a couple bpc's don't cut it. |
Whim Aqayn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:34:00 -
[476] - Quote
The only problem with the new exploration mechanics are the sites themselves. The minigame is stupid and the loot pinata is nothing but tedious. A mechanic like this does not and never will encourage team play. They should just revert the sites to pre-odyssey.
Regarding scanning, the default probe formations are useless and it would be better if they all started in one spot. The interface is much better.
To those complaining about exploration being overrun by new players, what the **** are you still doing in high-sec? |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
92
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:43:00 -
[477] - Quote
Whim Aqayn wrote:To those complaining about exploration being overrun by new players, what the **** are you still doing in high-sec?
Think all these t2 salvage parts flooding the market come from hisec? You must have missed the part where rats have been removed from the sites. It's easy now to farm nullsec sites in disposable frigs for low skilled players and with not much risk. And plenty do just that. |
Whim Aqayn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 14:24:00 -
[478] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Whim Aqayn wrote:To those complaining about exploration being overrun by new players, what the **** are you still doing in high-sec? Think all these t2 salvage parts flooding the market come from hisec? You must have missed the part where rats have been removed from the sites. It's easy now to farm nullsec sites in disposable frigs for low skilled players and with not much risk. And plenty do just that. And what exactly is stopping you from shooting them? |
Seth Darkness
Friends of Honor C0VEN
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 14:27:00 -
[479] - Quote
I don't really know why people whine so much on the new mechanic.
It's as real as it gets. You forcibly decompress a cargo bay in space. This makes the cargo fly out into space. Also they made this a real profession, as you pretty much need max skills and ship bonuses so you have as much coherence to break the nodes as possible.
The only thing that doesn't make sense for this profession is the loot reword. I've been doing these sites for the last few days and a buddy of mine and I did in like 5 hours only 3-400 mil. Most of the sites are crap and only a few give out good loot like intact armor plates and some cool blueprints.
loot should be comparable with hack complexity. Highest complexity should give the largest loot. Not to mention that these sites are ran by two people so this needs to be lucrative. |
Seth Darkness
Friends of Honor C0VEN
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 14:34:00 -
[480] - Quote
Seth Darkness wrote:I don't really know why people whine so much on the new mechanic.
It's as real as it gets. You forcibly decompress a cargo bay in space. This makes the cargo fly out into space. Also they made this a real profession, as you pretty much need max skills and ship bonuses so you have as much coherence to break the nodes as possible.
The only thing that doesn't make sense for this profession is the loot reward. I've been doing these sites for the last few days and a buddy of mine and I did in like 5 hours only 3-400 mil. Most of the sites are crap and only a few give out good loot like intact armor plates and some cool blueprints.
loot should be comparable with hack complexity. Highest complexity should give the largest loot. Not to mention that these sites are ran by two people so this needs to be lucrative.
|
|
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 14:36:00 -
[481] - Quote
Seth Darkness wrote:I don't really know why people whine so much on the new mechanic.
It's as real as it gets. You forcibly decompress a cargo bay in space. This makes the cargo fly out into space. Also they made this a real profession, as you pretty much need max skills and ship bonuses so you have as much coherence to break the notes as possible.
If I am smart enough to fully hack their system to the core I am also smart enough to find the node to depressurize the cargo bay first..... If they make it so that you can go one level deeper OR if you would need to find and destroy TWO cores I think that would greatly extinguish the flames.
First Core is the regular system core.... Second Core is the Pressurization Core.....
Do you just rush for the core or do you have the skills, luck, and time to hit both nodes successfully.....
Multiple people including myself have no qualms if they leave the loot spew in on failure. I could easily see this as at least somewhat of a compromise and working within the system
Quote: loot should be comparable with hack complexity. Highest complexity should give the largest loot. Not to mention that these sites are ran by two people so this needs to be lucrative.
Thats another issue people have... seems to be primarily luck based... |
hulka Puhkastu
The Hunting Demons
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:24:00 -
[482] - Quote
There is to much luck involved. What pattern you get how many firewalls and so on. Even where the system nod is. It should be more where you use your knowlegde to gain acces.
(same with loot). And the seeding of different component is off. Like check the prices for small anc armor rep and the large one why the **** does the small on still cost 2 mill and the large 200k-300k. Because of the bpc for the large is overflooding the marked. No balance in the amount of how often that bpc drops. CCP should try to to fix first and mostly what and where different loot drop. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
92
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:36:00 -
[483] - Quote
Whim Aqayn wrote:And what exactly is stopping you from shooting them?
I don't think you have grasped the situation and you are completely missing the point.
Before Odyssey you had to run the sites in t2 or t3 cruisers and deal with rats. Now you can run the sites in cheap, disposable and hard to catch frigs with low skill char. Scan down the sites in easy mode due to the new probing system. No tank and dps necessary. Someone comes into the system or on dscan? Just cloak up or warp out. On to the next system keep on farming.
The occasional loss from gate camp or whatever will not hurt much and it's not gonna fix the market situation. Who gives a **** about their frig when it pays off from a single site? And what would i gain from fitting my ship for pvp and fast lock time, wasting my time trying to hunt down those frigs when i'm way better off farming the sites myself?
|
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
629
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:41:00 -
[484] - Quote
The new scanner is flat out broken. Doesn't retain sites if you leave the system. If you launch probes the ability to system scan is sometimes thwarted requiring you to relaunch probes to get the sites on the overview.
The new probe layout itself makes it more difficult to go about my bizness. Even once I discovered the shift+alt aligning probes takes longer than before in order to get the right pattern. Are custom patterns in the future?
The minigame was interesting....once. Now that the patterns are clear it is just more of a drag (literally) than the old system.
Overall a general mess. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:46:00 -
[485] - Quote
Logan LaMort wrote:I liked it. I used to do exploration all the time, the probing bit was fun but the hacking/analyzing part? Ehh, completely braindead activity. Also lots of opportunities to ninja other people's loot
the cans do not float around indefinitely, they last maybe 10-15 seconds or something like that. unless you are sitting right next to them when they blow the core or you gank them after they have seemingly succesfully looted something, you won't be ninja'ing squat. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2860
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:49:00 -
[486] - Quote
I have a funny feeling that the veteran explorers are supposed to let the noobs do all the work, seeing that it's easier now, and then pop their ship and take the loot.
If you can fly a covops you can "probe jack" explorers. Just look for the cluster on a location, and then have your combat probes ready in tight formation. Warp in cloaked, let them play the mini game and all that, then once they are done, destroy them.
If we are still dealing with the CCP I know and remember, this might be the ultimate intention.
But I think we have to overcome the fear of somebody getting upset.
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:09:00 -
[487] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:If CCP has made it so that you need a second person to scoop all the loot, then this probably means (if it's done properly) that it's designed to be decently profitable for two people (since they'd have to share it). Which means that while you won't get all the loot on your own, what you will be able to pick up should still be pretty profitable. In addition the twitch game really makes it so that you do need two people to grab everything. I kind of doubt there are many people who will be able to dual box and still do a decent job of grabbing stuff.
So no, I really doubt that this kills off exploration. Depending on loot chances and site design etc. exploration could be massively profitable like it's supposed to be without being a major isk faucet like missions and ratting are.
I'm looking forward to trying it out when it hits Sisi/Duality and depending on how good it is I might just end up doing this instead of ratting. It looks fun. It's new.
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:11:00 -
[488] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I have a funny feeling that the veteran explorers are supposed to let the noobs do all the work, seeing that it's easier now, and then pop their ship and take the loot.
If you can fly a covops you can "probe jack" explorers. Just look for the cluster on a location, and then have your combat probes ready in tight formation. Warp in cloaked, let them play the mini game and all that, then once they are done, destroy them.
If we are still dealing with the CCP I know and remember, this might be the ultimate intention.
But I think we have to overcome the fear of somebody getting upset.
then you have to hope that their cargo was even worth the wait/work....because I'm telling you right now you'd be better off ganking a newb ratter or miner, just sayin |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1014
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:16:00 -
[489] - Quote
Been doing this a bit and its great
Minigame is fun and can get intense. Blowing up a really valuable can is gutwrenching. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Lea Severy
Squad Severy
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:16:00 -
[490] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Lea Severy wrote: and most importantly it should include as many people as possible. You wouldn't say that if it was your niche of the game that was suddenly overrun by low skilled farmers ruining your income and the enjoyment that you got from doing an activity in the past. And i have to disagree with you also when you say CCP thought this through. Obviously they haven't. Granted i myself was naive to think it wouldn't be so bad but then i don't get paid for developing this game nor have the experience of doing so for 10 years or get help from a professional economist to figure things out. A lot more people fight now over the same sparse ressources (by that i mean market demand, as quantity obviously is more then plenty now). Had they thought this through then an adequate amount of new ressources had been added to account for the number of new players doing it. The spatial atunments and a couple bpc's don't cut it.
Of course the market price will drop for many of the items you get from these sites - but ccp also added new rigs you can build, so eventually things will become balanced by themselves. Additionally the intact armor plates were always scarcely available on the market, hence the high price (they were at 20m a piece). A higher availability was maybe ccp's intention.
And about the "low skilled farmers" you mentioned: why would they ruin the joy of your activity? There are plenty of sites in EvE, if you get out of highsec, you won't be interrupted very often doing them in low or null. Yes, this change may have an impact on ones income compared to pre-odyssey, but there are many more variables to that, e.g. everyone wanting to check out the new mechanics. Just be patient, the market always reacts very strongly the first days after an expansion has been released. I for one get a load of valuable items and they sell for a good price, can't see a reason to complain about the income. |
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:22:00 -
[491] - Quote
The ONLY thing I do not like about the changes to exploration are the timers on the scatter loot cans. By the time we get to harvest the bounty of our efforts, I feel that our loot has been earned already. Heres why:
Too much is determined by chance: 1.) Chance of system containing a site 2.) Chance of system containing a site you want 3.) scan down sites until you get a site you want to run 4.) hack the site-can 5.) chance of failing 1st attempt 6.) chance of failing a 2nd attempt, if you fail twice entire site-can explodes 7.) chance can contains valuable loot 8.) chance of not recovering loot sought after by twitch-timer based scatter loot system. 9.) only applies to low/null: chance of someone forcing you to cloak for too long after attempting to hack any site-can. this is included because if this happens to you, the whole site explodes and the site despawns.
Now imagine going through all that for a chance at a few hundred thousand isk, or a very narrow smaller chance at over 100mil loot.
My argument is that by the time you have blown the core, you have earned your loot. Just how combat sites have earned their chance an officer spawn or rare loot drop. when you pop it, loot drops, you collect, fair deal. You don't have to frantically chase explosion particles that loot like loot cans in the hopes of looting what you already earned.
it's not a fair system. Just make the expiration timers on the scatter-cans a few minutes. That is fair. This way CCP only needs to tweak a value in the coding and won't have to remove any fancy art/design/ animations etc. easy fix.
|
Skeln Thargensen
The Scope Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:33:00 -
[492] - Quote
you don't have to pick up all the cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up freelance space bum |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:44:00 -
[493] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:you don't have to pick up all the (spew) cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up
this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing.
I don't see how anyone can support a system that is not initiated profession wide/game wide. All I want is longer timers on the loot cans that's it. Even better to just have the option to open and close said loot for "x" amount of time so I can decide what loot I have room for, etc. Sometimes I want things I don't have room for, I don't get a chance at cargo space management with such short timers.
Ask yourself, why is it we have to even work with a system like this and everyone else does not? A few adjustments would make a lot of people happy and people already happy won't be any less happy. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:50:00 -
[494] - Quote
If you aren't making good money at this, you aren't doing it right. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:56:00 -
[495] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:you don't have to pick up all the (spew) cans to get all the loot. you can use a cargo scanner on the can before you hack it, look at what loot is in it, and then only pick those types. most of the time you're only picking data, materials or parts. scrap and equipment are nearly always junk. you have to prioritise when there''s two or more types to pick up this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing. I don't see how anyone can support a system that is not initiated profession wide/game wide. All I want is longer timers on the loot cans that's it. Even better to just have the option to open and close said loot for "x" amount of time so I can decide what loot I have room for, etc. Sometimes I want things I don't have room for, I don't get a chance at cargo space management with such short timers. Ask yourself, why is it we have to even work with a system like this and everyone else does not? A few adjustments would make a lot of people happy and people already happy won't be any less happy. One of the major objectives is to encourage bringing a friend. If you don't want to bring a friend you need to do some prep work to ensure you have a high chance of getting the most valuable loot.
You don't earn it until it's in your hold, your point of view is more than a blit self entitled.
People have been begging for PVE content that they can't master simply by checking a web page that already has all the answers laid out for you... something unpredictable, something with some random elements, something where success isn't guaranteed. If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Skeln Thargensen
The Scope Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:01:00 -
[496] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing.
I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under?
http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution freelance space bum |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
92
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:05:00 -
[497] - Quote
Lea Severy wrote:And about the "low skilled farmers" you mentioned: why would they ruin the joy of your activity? There are plenty of sites in EvE, if you get out of highsec, you won't be interrupted very often doing them in low or null. Yes, this change may have an impact on ones income compared to pre-odyssey, but there are many more variables to that, e.g. everyone wanting to check out the new mechanics. Just be patient, the market always reacts very strongly the first days after an expansion has been released. I for one get a load of valuable items and they sell for a good price, can't see a reason to complain about the income.
Decent income from the sites = joy. Reward for risk = joy. Finding stuff that isn't served on a silver platter to everyone and his dog = joy. I'm not saying profession sites was this super exciting, dangerous thing to do before but any risk is almost eliminated now. You must be really stupid or sleepy to get caught and even then you only lose a cheap ship. It's not gonna set you back financialy or make you reconsider the risk you're willing to take.
You say yourself you will not get interrupted much in null. That's true. Everyone who still does it in hisec or low sec at this point is stupid. This will dawn on even more people soon. It's just too easy and almost risk free. And that's also why i don't believe in the "things will sort themself out"-mantra. Suppose the market crashes completely and everyone stops doing it for a while. Farmers will be out in full force again as soon as the market rebounds. It can only be fixed by raising the entry barrier to an appropriate level again. Sites that pay 100m on average (in a healthy economic situation) shouldn't be farmable by two month old alts in 70m ship. (or even t1 frig). Just compare this for a moment with the entry barrier to run l4 missions decently which pay way less. |
Barron Hammerstrike
RISK Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:06:00 -
[498] - Quote
I've done a few sites and lost a few ships since the update. This hardly happened before so if the goal was to increase gank opportunities for PvP'ers then success there and I'm cool with that. My problems are the following.
Scanning was challenging and is now too easy. Before the patch I could launch 5 probes max and felt that there was a real effort put into locating sites with the payoff being the opportunity to loot a data or archaeology site. True, getting the loot was pretty simple, but I always felt claiming the prize should be simple if locating it is difficult. Now it's just way too easy. I can find a site in maybe two scans and then have to spend too long clicking around playing mine sweeper to get the loot which spews out all over the place. It's kind of annoying and makes no sense because this feature is totally inconsistent with how loot works in the game.
The hack mini game is still just a bunch of pretty aimless clicking. I think claiming the reward shouldn't be more of the same. When the "lootsplosion" happens I find it to be pretty annoying. Open Kill Rights and Other Oppportunities
Join public channel RiskiBiznass
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:14:00 -
[499] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.
I seem to remember only asking for a minor tweak to the scattered can timers, making them last a little longer. mostly for inventory management. I didn't imply anything else.
|
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:15:00 -
[500] - Quote
I have to say that overall the new exploration has been immensely profitable, as I never had a chance to do exploration really pre-odyssey due to NPC's that I wasn't really skilled enough to kill with all in one exploration fits. The shooting cans don't really bother me as I use a cargo scanner and have figured out which cans hold which loot, though it does suck losing that 1 stack of t2 salvage because the last parts or material can dissappears before you can get it. My luck has been pretty good though.
The only thing that I asked be changed is:
When you defeat a restoration node, please please please make the other nodes go back down to normal. I lost a 200 million Faction True Sansha POS Module BPC because on both hacking attempts I had multiple resto nodes and the firewalls had ungodly amounts of virus coherence and strength at that point, so that is really my only point of contention and a lot of other players seems to share this same point as well because I had a few replies on reddit.com/r/eve about it as well. |
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Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:19:00 -
[501] - Quote
CCP asked up to speak up about this over the next couple of weeks so they could consider whether or not to patch it. I think it is important for people to voice their concerns on their likes and don't likes of the system for them to consider. All other responses regarding "intent" of someone's feedback or replying in a fashion saying "your doing it wrong" really is not constructive feedback to the poster nor to CCP. just sayin |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
241
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:21:00 -
[502] - Quote
I stink at the mini-game but LOVE the low sec sites. Every bewb and his brother are coming along with a dream of riches with a cargo hold full of goodies. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:31:00 -
[503] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.
I seem to remember only asking for a minor tweak to the scattered can timers, making them last a little longer. mostly for inventory management. I didn't imply anything else. If needed, minor tweaks will happen. However asking for longer can timers is simply an attempt to become more able to reap all of the rewards by yourself, which is at cross purposes one of the design objectives. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:33:00 -
[504] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:CCP asked up to speak up about this over the next couple of weeks so they could consider whether or not to patch it. I think it is important for people to voice their concerns on their likes and don't likes of the system for them to consider. All other responses regarding "intent" of someone's feedback or replying in a fashion saying "your doing it wrong" really is not constructive feedback to the poster nor to CCP. just sayin It is when one of the issues is that the poster doesn't realize there are methods available to overcome (at least to some degree) the "problem" without needing a change to the game mechanics. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:34:00 -
[505] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing. I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under? http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution
appreciate the link but it proves kind of what I'm saying. Just look at the T2 salvage info for relic sites. Dropped in both materials and parts containers. so no, not confused to where things are supposed to drop. but thanks for trying to help though.
when your site spews 5 of each container type, like 5 materials and 5 parts, you won't always get what your are after, and if you do then you are "just getting lucky" If I'm only wanting to farm certain items for production. There are certain things that if you are after only them, you only have to loot as in BPC's and data cans.
|
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:34:00 -
[506] - Quote
Unfortunately, there is no way around multiple resto nodes in hacking attempts completely screwing you out of a successful hack. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:38:00 -
[507] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:CCP asked up to speak up about this over the next couple of weeks so they could consider whether or not to patch it. I think it is important for people to voice their concerns on their likes and don't likes of the system for them to consider. All other responses regarding "intent" of someone's feedback or replying in a fashion saying "your doing it wrong" really is not constructive feedback to the poster nor to CCP. just sayin It is when one of the issues is that the poster doesn't realize there are methods available to overcome (at least to some degree) the "problem" without needing a change to the game mechanics.
my issues are with timers and some loot allocations. if you are targeting me in particular you are trolling as my posts had not indicated anything other.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:42:00 -
[508] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:CCP asked up to speak up about this over the next couple of weeks so they could consider whether or not to patch it. I think it is important for people to voice their concerns on their likes and don't likes of the system for them to consider. All other responses regarding "intent" of someone's feedback or replying in a fashion saying "your doing it wrong" really is not constructive feedback to the poster nor to CCP. just sayin It is when one of the issues is that the poster doesn't realize there are methods available to overcome (at least to some degree) the "problem" without needing a change to the game mechanics. my issues are with timers and some loot allocations. if you are targeting me in particular you are trolling as my posts had not indicated anything other. I'm not trolling you. I'm pointing out that the sites are not supposed to be 100% predictable on how the loot drops... and that if you want to be assured of getting it all you NEED TO BRING A FRIEND.
This is by design. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
241
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:42:00 -
[509] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing. I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under? http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution If I'm only wanting to farm certain items for production.
The new system is to discourage farming and it looks like it's working. You'll need to take chance based stuff just like anything else...hell I would like to have players drop everything when they die but alas...no...the loot fairy either giveth or taketh away. |
Skeln Thargensen
The Scope Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:51:00 -
[510] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:appreciate the link but it proves kind of what I'm saying. Just look at the T2 salvage info for relic sites. Dropped in both materials and parts containers. so no, not confused to where things are supposed to drop. but thanks for trying to help though.
when your site spews 5 of each container type, like 5 materials and 5 parts, you won't always get what your are after, and if you do then you are "just getting lucky" If I'm only wanting to farm certain items for production. There are certain things that if you are after only them, you only have to loot as in BPC's and data cans.
i see what you mean now. it is kind of a lottery in that regard, yes. though i gather CCP want this to be more of a group oriented activity so they maybe want to frustrate soloers a bit. freelance space bum |
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:08:00 -
[511] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Hi everyone, thanks for the reams of feedback. We'll be releasing a devblog/devblogs over the next few days detailing exactly whats coming and how it works so you'll have a lot more information in your hands. I'm going to answer a few specific points that have come up a lot here though:
Colourblind People We're absolutely aware that we need to make the interface work for the colourblind. All the visuals at the moment are WIP. We have software internally that lets us simulate how the interface would look to you and are using that during development.
Soloing We are doing nothing to prevent people from soloing. We obviously cannot predict exactly how players will end up using this feature but there is no intention of making it impossible to solo explore and successfully make money from it. CCP RedDawn is a solo explorer and he'd be most upset if we took away his favourite activity!
Twitch Gameplay We totally understand your concerns about how the scattered can collection will work as it is a departure from how the rest of EVE works. The mechanic itself comes from a mining prototype developed by CCP Veritas and does work well within EVE as far as we can ascertain from our user testing of it. It's not a crazy clickfest as it will take several seconds to pull each can in. We are in a phase of playtesting and refining how long, how fast and how many cans will scatter. The 'twitch' side of it is no more than exists in EVE interacting with the UI now, the main difference is that you are interacting within the space scene itself.
This was posted in this thread on the 29th of April.
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:09:00 -
[512] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing. I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under? http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution If I'm only wanting to farm certain items for production. The new system is to discourage farming and it looks like it's working. You'll need to take chance based stuff just like anything else...hell I would like to have players drop everything when they die but alas...no...the loot fairy either giveth or taketh away.
gee when I'm farming roids or ice for production or fuel, guess what I get, what I farmed for.....
Also please quit trolling, it has only encouraged farming and it is having a huge impact on the market / economy for all the loot items involved in exploration. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:15:00 -
[513] - Quote
so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are work 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be.
|
hulka Puhkastu
The Hunting Demons
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:47:00 -
[514] - Quote
Well first off CCP explain me this. I scan after a site and find it. I go to the first relic container and hack it. Then a other player scans after ships and finds me so I go into hiding and wait. He warps in and he finds no ship. he flys around abit and then warp off. I wait 2 more min and then I want to return to the relics cans to hack some more but all are gone. Even the one I have not touched and was about to hack.
WTF IS THAT ****. I mean I must be allowed to stealth and hide between different cans with out the hole site disappearing. It is just stupid if you play smart and check your directional scan and hid (I did not even warp out of the site i did just stealth) and get rewarded with the hole site disappearing.
That is just dumb bug or game mechanic. I hop CCP you fix this. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:51:00 -
[515] - Quote
That happened to me in Unefsih the other night, I was cloaked waiting for a whole fleet of people to jump out, was cloaked maybe 2 minutes tops and the whole site exploded, had only touched 1 can. Prioritizing Loot > Safety in lowsec is not the way to go. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
94
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:15:00 -
[516] - Quote
hulka Puhkastu wrote:Well first off CCP explain me this. I scan after a site and find it. I go to the first relic container and hack it. Then a other player scans after ships and finds me so I go into hiding and wait. He warps in and he finds no ship. he flys around abit and then warp off. I wait 2 more min and then I want to return to the relics cans to hack some more but all are gone. Even the one I have not touched and was about to hack.
WTF IS THAT ****. I mean I must be allowed to stealth and hide between different cans with out the hole site disappearing. It is just stupid if you play smart and check your directional scan and hid (I did not even warp out of the site i did just stealth) and get rewarded with the hole site disappearing.
That is just dumb bug or game mechanic. I hop CCP you fix this.
You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:22:00 -
[517] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they realize the value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are worth 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be. And yet you complain about not being able to farm specific loot. I think you'd better get your argument straight.
Yes, solo play is still possible and profitable. Yes, it is more difficult to farm specific loot with 100% accuracy. Yes, to get 100% of the now larger (and more valuable) drops you need to bring a friend, and presumably split it with him. Yes, there will probably be some tweaks to can dispersion... but it's doubtful they will make it easier to solo.
Supply and demand will stabilize, as they always do... and if any adjustments to the drops need to be made that is easily done over time. It's going to be a little while before they can get a clear picture as to how prices will be affected, post patch speculation and everyone trying out the new shiney will take a little while to die down... and are not something to base adjustments on just yet. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:23:00 -
[518] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.
I seem to remember only asking for a minor tweak to the scattered can timers, making them last a little longer. mostly for inventory management. I didn't imply anything else. If needed, minor tweaks will happen. However asking for longer can timers is simply an attempt to become more able to reap all of the rewards by yourself, which is at cross purposes one of the design objectives.
1st off, I was fine being able to reap the benefits from before just fine thanks. I actually needed help in the previous version... the new version is counter intuitive to your "design objectives" stated in your argument because now it only takes me 1 person to do it...lol
you are trolling?
|
|
CCP Bayesian
854
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:28:00 -
[519] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote: You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through.
If CCP Prime checked his changes in for the patch tomorrow these issues should be fixed. The sites will despawn on completion, when all containers have been either failed or hacked successfully rather than at any other time. The probe scan problem in particular was a regression from the previous behaviour. The cloaking a somewhat over zealous fix for the problem of cloaked ships keeping other kinds of sites around indefinitely and preventing their respawn. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:31:00 -
[520] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they realize the value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are worth 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be. And yet you complain about not being able to farm specific loot. I think you'd better get your argument straight. Yes, solo play is still possible and profitable. Yes, it is more difficult to farm specific loot with 100% accuracy. Yes, to get 100% of the now larger (and more valuable) drops you need to bring a friend, and presumably split it with him. Yes, there will probably be some tweaks to can dispersion... but it's doubtful they will make it easier to solo. Supply and demand will stabilize, as they always do... and if any adjustments to the drops need to be made that is easily done over time. It's going to be a little while before they can get a clear picture as to how prices will be affected, post patch speculation and everyone trying out the new shiney will take a little while to die down... and is not something to base adjustments on just yet.
why do i get the feeling you are CCP trying to sell me an idea I didn't ask for and convince me that this system is better than the way I LIKED IT BEFORE. please leave me alone, I don't like it. That's my opinion. Those are my suggestions, some of the suggestions I also have seen other players express. Any further inflammatory posts and I will have to report you for trolling. You are singling me out of the rest of the conversation that others are having. WHY? TROLL! |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:32:00 -
[521] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: If you're seeking to get this dumbed down/made easier... or to keep CCP from making it even more challenging through iteration... you're not going to find much support. Especially as people get better at it and discover it's really not all that difficult, merely more entertaining.
I seem to remember only asking for a minor tweak to the scattered can timers, making them last a little longer. mostly for inventory management. I didn't imply anything else. If needed, minor tweaks will happen. However asking for longer can timers is simply an attempt to become more able to reap all of the rewards by yourself, which is at cross purposes one of the design objectives. 1st off, I was fine being able to reap the benefits from before just fine thanks. I actually needed help in the previous version... the new version is counter intuitive to your "design objectives" stated in your argument because now it only takes me 1 person to do it...lol you are trolling? No, but either you are or you can't keep your story straight.
You now say you only need one person to do better than the old system, and yet you said were wanting the cans to stick around even longer so you could farm it more efficiently solo.
Quote:My argument is that by the time you have blown the core, you have earned your loot. Just how combat sites have earned their chance an officer spawn or rare loot drop. when you pop it, loot drops, you collect, fair deal. You don't have to frantically chase explosion particles that loot like loot cans in the hopes of looting what you already earned.
it's not a fair system. Just make the expiration timers on the scatter-cans a few minutes. That is fair. This way CCP only needs to tweak a value in the coding and won't have to remove any fancy art/design/ animations etc. easy fix.
Get your story straight please, then we'll talk. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:33:00 -
[522] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen wrote: You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through.
If CCP Prime checked his changes in for the patch tomorrow these issues should be fixed. The sites will despawn on completion, when all containers have been either failed or hacked successfully rather than at any other time. The probe scan problem in particular was a regression from the previous behaviour. The cloaking a somewhat over zealous fix for the problem of cloaked ships keeping other kinds of sites around indefinitely and preventing their respawn.
Thank you! Though I have to ask, what was the probe scan problem? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:33:00 -
[523] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they realize the value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are worth 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be. And yet you complain about not being able to farm specific loot. I think you'd better get your argument straight. Yes, solo play is still possible and profitable. Yes, it is more difficult to farm specific loot with 100% accuracy. Yes, to get 100% of the now larger (and more valuable) drops you need to bring a friend, and presumably split it with him. Yes, there will probably be some tweaks to can dispersion... but it's doubtful they will make it easier to solo. Supply and demand will stabilize, as they always do... and if any adjustments to the drops need to be made that is easily done over time. It's going to be a little while before they can get a clear picture as to how prices will be affected, post patch speculation and everyone trying out the new shiney will take a little while to die down... and is not something to base adjustments on just yet. why do i get the feeling you are CCP trying to sell me an idea I didn't ask for and convince me that this system is better than the way I LIKED IT BEFORE. please leave me alone, I don't like it. That's my opinion. Those are my suggestions, some of the suggestions I also have seen other players express. Any further inflammatory posts and I will have to report you for trolling. You are singling me out of the rest of the conversation that others are having. WHY? TROLL! Because you are the one contradicting themselves every other post, which is typical troll behavior. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:34:00 -
[524] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen wrote: You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through.
If CCP Prime checked his changes in for the patch tomorrow these issues should be fixed. The sites will despawn on completion, when all containers have been either failed or hacked successfully rather than at any other time. The probe scan problem in particular was a regression from the previous behaviour. The cloaking a somewhat over zealous fix for the problem of cloaked ships keeping other kinds of sites around indefinitely and preventing their respawn.
Thank you so much, this will be a welcome patch/fix. |
Diablo Aeglaeca
Diabolos AEGLAECA Dark Empire Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:37:00 -
[525] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they realize the value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are worth 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be. And yet you complain about not being able to farm specific loot. I think you'd better get your argument straight. Yes, solo play is still possible and profitable. Yes, it is more difficult to farm specific loot with 100% accuracy. Yes, to get 100% of the now larger (and more valuable) drops you need to bring a friend, and presumably split it with him. Yes, there will probably be some tweaks to can dispersion... but it's doubtful they will make it easier to solo. Supply and demand will stabilize, as they always do... and if any adjustments to the drops need to be made that is easily done over time. It's going to be a little while before they can get a clear picture as to how prices will be affected, post patch speculation and everyone trying out the new shiney will take a little while to die down... and is not something to base adjustments on just yet. why do i get the feeling you are CCP trying to sell me an idea I didn't ask for and convince me that this system is better than the way I LIKED IT BEFORE. please leave me alone, I don't like it. That's my opinion. Those are my suggestions, some of the suggestions I also have seen other players express. Any further inflammatory posts and I will have to report you for trolling. You are singling me out of the rest of the conversation that others are having. WHY? TROLL! Because you are the one contradicting themselves every other post, which is typical troll behavior.
not really. I don't like the loot scatter system. I'd like longer timers on the cans for loot management. That was my initial suggestion. Your arguments say that:
changes were made to prevent farming, well I'm saying that the changes have encouraged it you said it was designed for team-play , I'm saying that the current setup encourages solo farming
the impact on the loot items themselves is evidence enough. all you are trying to do is instigate angry responses and confuse the topic. which is trolling.
|
|
CCP Bayesian
854
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:40:00 -
[526] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote: Thank you! Though I have to ask, what was the probe scan problem?
It's not very noticeable but contributed to hackers being much safer, essentially the sig of the site disappeared after the first successful hack for anyone else looking. The only way people would be able to find you after that was via combat probing. Now there will be the danger of people cloaked in the site and people able to chance upon you which should increase competition. Adding more risk outside hisec. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:51:00 -
[527] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:so which is it then? changes to discourage farming? changes to encourage team play? anybody have a clue?
currently this is a solo-farming heaven, low barrier for entry, value of loot items are nearly halved as the prices crash?
you think its getting bad now, just wait until you hear from all of those passive isk players who use R&D agents. Can't wait to hear their thoughts when they realize the value of those data cores they passively farmed for a year are worth 1/3 to a 1/2 what they used to be. And yet you complain about not being able to farm specific loot. I think you'd better get your argument straight. Yes, solo play is still possible and profitable. Yes, it is more difficult to farm specific loot with 100% accuracy. Yes, to get 100% of the now larger (and more valuable) drops you need to bring a friend, and presumably split it with him. Yes, there will probably be some tweaks to can dispersion... but it's doubtful they will make it easier to solo. Supply and demand will stabilize, as they always do... and if any adjustments to the drops need to be made that is easily done over time. It's going to be a little while before they can get a clear picture as to how prices will be affected, post patch speculation and everyone trying out the new shiney will take a little while to die down... and is not something to base adjustments on just yet. why do i get the feeling you are CCP trying to sell me an idea I didn't ask for and convince me that this system is better than the way I LIKED IT BEFORE. please leave me alone, I don't like it. That's my opinion. Those are my suggestions, some of the suggestions I also have seen other players express. Any further inflammatory posts and I will have to report you for trolling. You are singling me out of the rest of the conversation that others are having. WHY? TROLL! Because you are the one contradicting themselves every other post, which is typical troll behavior. not really. I don't like the loot scatter system. I'd like longer timers on the cans for loot management. That was my initial suggestion. Your arguments say that: changes were made to prevent farming, well I'm saying that the changes have encouraged it you said it was designed for team-play , I'm saying that the current setup encourages solo farming the impact on the loot items themselves is evidence enough. all you are trying to do is instigate angry responses and confuse the topic. which is trolling. You do realize you just proved my point right?
"The changes to the mechanic makes it easier for others to farm loot, and the timers aren't long enough because it makes it difficult for me to farm loot."
Pointing out the obvious flaws in your logic is not trolling my friend. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4250
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:54:00 -
[528] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote: Thank you! Though I have to ask, what was the probe scan problem?
It's not very noticeable but contributed to hackers being much safer, essentially the sig of the site disappeared after the first successful hack for anyone else looking. The only way people would be able to find you after that was via combat probing. Now there will be the danger of people cloaked in the site and people able to chance upon you which should increase competition. Adding more risk outside hisec. That should certainly put the risk back in the risk vs reward equation. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:58:00 -
[529] - Quote
This will keep me out of lowsec then and push me farther into nullsec because I can just imagine reds sitting inside sites now and decloaking as soon as you warp in. |
D'Angelo Barksdale
He's got a pineapple on his head
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:02:00 -
[530] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen wrote: You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through.
If CCP Prime checked his changes in for the patch tomorrow these issues should be fixed. The sites will despawn on completion, when all containers have been either failed or hacked successfully rather than at any other time. The probe scan problem in particular was a regression from the previous behaviour. The cloaking a somewhat over zealous fix for the problem of cloaked ships keeping other kinds of sites around indefinitely and preventing their respawn.
If the sites only despawn on completion then most of the sites will hang about with just the crap loot left in them as who's going to hack a can when there's nothing to gain from it. Its fine as it is and cloaking in a site should let it despawn, if you're that scared of other players stay in high sec.
edit: i spent an hour in null sec scanning data sites and hacked 1 can in 3. |
|
hulka Puhkastu
The Hunting Demons
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:08:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote: Thank you! Though I have to ask, what was the probe scan problem?
It's not very noticeable but contributed to hackers being much safer, essentially the sig of the site disappeared after the first successful hack for anyone else looking. The only way people would be able to find you after that was via combat probing. Now there will be the danger of people cloaked in the site and people able to chance upon you which should increase competition. Adding more risk outside hisec.
That is totally okey because I mean after all in such a game you should be able to prevent getting catched (not lose site while doing it) and to encourage to catch others ( for example cloakers waiting for prey to jump in) . And even to jump in to the sites off others and scoop the loot before they can. That is at least what i was expecting all the time in low and null :). |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:09:00 -
[532] - Quote
D'Angelo Barksdale wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen wrote: You gotta see the positives of it. While you can't cloak for long in a site without it despawning it also means someone else can't wait there cloaked to pop you. Tho i think sites would be more fun for both hunter and prey if cloaking was a-ok. I also don't see the point of sites despawning from the probe scanner after the first container is hacked. Would make for some interesting situations if the competition could chime in halfway through.
If CCP Prime checked his changes in for the patch tomorrow these issues should be fixed. The sites will despawn on completion, when all containers have been either failed or hacked successfully rather than at any other time. The probe scan problem in particular was a regression from the previous behaviour. The cloaking a somewhat over zealous fix for the problem of cloaked ships keeping other kinds of sites around indefinitely and preventing their respawn. If the sites only despawn on completion then most of the sites will hang about with just the crap loot left in them as who's going to hack a can when there's nothing to gain from it. Its fine as it is and cloaking in a site should let it despawn, if you're that scared of other players stay in high sec.
And let lowsec pirates have free reign and spend the whole day just blasting explorers and scooping up our loot? Yeah no thanks. I cloak up for a reason. If I could pilot a combat ship that has great scanning capabilities and stand a fighting chance in pvp (Aka T3) I would, but I can't so no. |
hulka Puhkastu
The Hunting Demons
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:09:00 -
[533] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:This will keep me out of lowsec then and push me farther into nullsec because I can just imagine reds sitting inside sites now and decloaking as soon as you warp in.
Lol you think that will not happen to you in null? that was a good one ^^ |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5521
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:16:00 -
[534] - Quote
D'Angelo Barksdale wrote:If the sites only despawn on completion then most of the sites will hang about with just the crap loot left in them as who's going to hack a can when there's nothing to gain from it. Or you could just force two successive failures. This takes at most 10 seconds per can, not counting the travel time between cans. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:19:00 -
[535] - Quote
hulka Puhkastu wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote:This will keep me out of lowsec then and push me farther into nullsec because I can just imagine reds sitting inside sites now and decloaking as soon as you warp in. Lol you think that will not happen to you in null? that was a good one ^^
No, not by watching local and staying friendly nullsec it won't happen to you, just requires a bit of observation, nice try there. |
|
CCP Prime
C C P C C P Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:53:00 -
[536] - Quote
The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed. So you can go in there to find the most valuable can, hack it and cloak as needed or you could cloak and wait for your prey to appear.
The signature for the site will be visible until all cans that have loot have been hacked or destroyed.
Fleet logs will show the loot all members of the fleet managed to gather, and who gathered what.
Programmer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Skeln Thargensen
The Scope Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:55:00 -
[537] - Quote
there are areas of low that are nearly as unpopulated as null with the added benefit of not having the risk of running into bubble camps.
and a covops frigate costs nothing compared to what it makes. freelance space bum |
Haulie Berry
1011
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:56:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP Prime wrote:The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed.
This is bad, and is going to result in a lot of sites that have been stripped of any significant value just hanging around indefinitely. At least have them despawn if they've been touched and vacated. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:03:00 -
[539] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:CCP Prime wrote:The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed.
This is bad, and is going to result in a lot of sites that have been stripped of any significant value just hanging around indefinitely. At least have them despawn if they've been touched and vacated.
Id rather go in and find a site with containers left alone that have positron cords or skill books left. you don't always need the loot worth hundreds of millions of isk, every little bit counts. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4253
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:06:00 -
[540] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:CCP Prime wrote:The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed.
This is bad, and is going to result in a lot of sites that have been stripped of any significant value just hanging around indefinitely. At least have them despawn if they've been touched and vacated. I think people are going to "trip" those low value sites to get rid of them faster. Greed is an excellent incentive to be tidy. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
241
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 22:23:00 -
[541] - Quote
Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Diablo Aeglaeca wrote:this does not always work. sure you can see whats inside but that does not determine you will get that loot. If you see whats inside is a BPC, then yes, click all data's till you get it. I have noticed though that other valuable loot items are not consistently in the containers you target. Parts/Materials cans assigned loot is not consistent. If you normally get something through looting parts, if you only loot parts, you might not get any of what you are looking for at all because they were scattered in the materials cans....and vice versa. So it's not a sure thing. I've not had much time to fully explore the mechanics of this but that doesn't sound right or if it is it sounds bugged, it should work as I described. could it be you've just misunderstood the category the item falls under? http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution If I'm only wanting to farm certain items for production. The new system is to discourage farming and it looks like it's working. You'll need to take chance based stuff just like anything else...hell I would like to have players drop everything when they die but alas...no...the loot fairy either giveth or taketh away. gee when I'm farming roids or ice for production or fuel, guess what I get, what I farmed for..... Also please quit trolling, it has only encouraged farming and it is having a huge impact on the market / economy for all the loot items involved in exploration.
Roids will be the next thing to get the loot spew mechanic so enjoy it while it lasts. |
Haulie Berry
1013
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 22:23:00 -
[542] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:CCP Prime wrote:The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed.
This is bad, and is going to result in a lot of sites that have been stripped of any significant value just hanging around indefinitely. At least have them despawn if they've been touched and vacated. I think people are going to "trip" those low value sites to get rid of them faster. Greed is an excellent incentive to be tidy.
Pretty sure greed is a better incentive to leave the competition sucking on your sloppy seconds, tbh. There aren't a lot of good reasons to care about a site despawning if you're the one who hit it - especially if you're making good use of WHs to cover a lot of ground. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2862
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 22:35:00 -
[543] - Quote
I don't see where the ability to hunt (or bait a hunter) in exploration sites is going to be a problem.
Intel tools that afford protection still apply.
But consider that an exploration ship, while lacking in tank and sacrificing DPS for the probe launcher can still run a heavy AB to run off with and even field tackle gear too. I used to run a 100MN AB on a Cyclone with a large nuet just to keep tacklers off. (worked great on sleepers too).
Exploration is coming of age. I have yet to even find a site to test a mini game in, but this only leads me to look forward to getting a chance in the future, perhaps a late night session. Frankly the whole profession of Exploration has never been about the maximization of ISK in such manner that mission running in highsec or incursions or nullsec anoms are. Exploration is about that Lara Croft/Indiana Jones aspect of the game. Yes you might hit it big and haul in some serious ISK for mere minutes of work, or you might work all day at it and get nothing. But since 2009 I always found, along with many who like this play style, that it's all about "the find" as Indiana Jones would say.
If you explore and then at the end of it say " I can bring in more ISK in the same amount of time!" or "I didn't get all the cans because of spew/gankers/mini game" then exploration is not for you. The "Productivity maximization" crowd already has well-established content to earn ISK in. Just think of the scene from "Raider of the Lost Ark" when Doctor Jones was swapping the golden idol for a bag of sand, the look on his face, and what happened next (he was basically blobbed by his rival and ransomed for the loot). Think of that and you will get exploration.
I have done mainly this since 2009 and have a station lock box with so much valuable loot in it I can't keep track and I'd say most of my attempts at exploration are mediocre at best, and having been run off many a nullsec site by NPC and player alike (usually in half structure too).
|
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic Tribal Band
12
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 18:04:00 -
[544] - Quote
Not sure if this is the right place but a reproducible bug with hacking mini-game. After you use a DoT/HoT utility you click a couple of turns taking the utility to one turn left, at this point the next node you click will seem unresponsive and you will be required to click a second node in order for both actions to actually show as completed and have the utility disappear. |
|
CCP Bayesian
866
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 18:12:00 -
[545] - Quote
Thanks, I fixed the cause of that already so it should be out on TQ right now and fixed.
There is an in game bug reporter as well which is a bit more efficient as it's not always the case that a developer will see a post on the forums. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic Tribal Band
12
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 18:17:00 -
[546] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks, I fixed the cause of that already so it should be out on TQ right now and fixed.
There is an in game bug reporter as well which is a bit more efficient as it's not always the case that a developer will see a post on the forums.
Yea, just got on today after doing some sites yesterday. |
|
CCP Bayesian
866
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 19:01:00 -
[547] - Quote
Haha, don't worry about it, reporting problems that are obvious bugs is always helpful. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic Tribal Band
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 20:31:00 -
[548] - Quote
Question about what type of depth are you going to add to hacking mini-game? Will players have the ability to up the ante as it were? Maybe two players doing a 3x-4x size mini-game? |
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic Tribal Band
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 07:39:00 -
[549] - Quote
Oh reminds me, the so-called hints in the soundscape(as per the devblog) seems very faint/not there. |
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CCP Bayesian
868
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 08:57:00 -
[550] - Quote
The first thing we'll be doing is getting setup to make Utilities something that can be taken out of the systems you are hacking and fitted into the module in advance of going off hacking. Without doing that hackers are really still at the mercy of the board generation when it comes to making choices. It also adds a secondary income for explorers that is linked to exploring and ties the hacking more into EVE. This is really the first thing that has to happen to add more depth to hacking and isn't an insignificant amount of work.
Following on from that initially it's a case of adding more Defense Subsystems and Utilities to support more interesting things happening.
We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs. Further we'd like to increase the granularity in failure as well. This creates more options for any new systems that get introduced using the same mechanics. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production LiVingInTheBoX
78
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 10:20:00 -
[551] - Quote
Please create some special designed ships within your further design of the hacking process, so the risk (loosing a really high value ship) goes along with the reward (gaining the faction tower bpc because you hacked through 5 layers of pain).
Also: You are doing good work, the new sites are more fun than i thought before. But since the risk-reward is so low now (market-reaction on the gold-rush), I can do a lot more profitable things than exploring. |
Selene Nask
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 11:43:00 -
[552] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't see where the ability to hunt (or bait a hunter) in exploration sites is going to be a problem.
Intel tools that afford protection still apply.
But consider that an exploration ship, while lacking in tank and sacrificing DPS for the probe launcher can still run a heavy AB to run off with and even field tackle gear too. I used to run a 100MN AB on a Cyclone with a large nuet just to keep tacklers off. (worked great on sleepers too).
Exploration is coming of age. I have yet to even find a site to test a mini game in, but this only leads me to look forward to getting a chance in the future, perhaps a late night session. Frankly the whole profession of Exploration has never been about the maximization of ISK in such manner that mission running in highsec or incursions or nullsec anoms are. Exploration is about that Lara Croft/Indiana Jones aspect of the game. Yes you might hit it big and haul in some serious ISK for mere minutes of work, or you might work all day at it and get nothing. But since 2009 I always found, along with many who like this play style, that it's all about "the find" as Indiana Jones would say.
If you explore and then at the end of it say " I can bring in more ISK in the same amount of time!" or "I didn't get all the cans because of spew/gankers/mini game" then exploration is not for you. The "Productivity maximization" crowd already has well-established content to earn ISK in. Just think of the scene from "Raider of the Lost Ark" when Doctor Jones was swapping the golden idol for a bag of sand, the look on his face, and what happened next (he was basically blobbed by his rival and ransomed for the loot). Think of that and you will get exploration.
I have done mainly this since 2009 and have a station lock box with so much valuable loot in it I can't keep track and I'd say most of my attempts at exploration are mediocre at best, and having been run off many a nullsec site by NPC and player alike (usually in half structure too).
This is the way that I'm looking at it. I explored a bit before the change. I liked it okay but didn't find it that fun. I like making isk like anyone else but when I play I like to have some fun doing it. I know what I can do if I want to max my isk per hour but balance that with whats enjoyable. I don't play this game with 'max isk' as a goal and I know many people who don't just play for that as well.
Since the change I've found exploration a lot more fun (fun is subjective of course). And for me the search aspect is part of it. Yesterday I explored for a few hours and made diddly squat. In the two days before I hit some big pay sites and pulled in over 500 million in the first two systems I hit. I like the not knowing what a days exploration will bring in. It makes the good days that much better. If I wanted to know I was going to bring in a certain amount of isk for every hour I play I would run things like missions or incursion where the reward is more predictable.
I'm also liking the risk vs reward decisions that need to be made. I jump into a system with a lot of sigs and several people in local. Do I risk it or not? The other day I was busy running a site while being alone in the system. Someone jumped in. I cargo scanned a can a saw two good Bps. Then I saw combat probes so I knew the guy was coming after me. (Now it will be seeing scanner probes or wondering if the person had pre-scanned the system). It then became a race to see if I could hack the can before they appeared. It was a hard can. First attempt failed. Then success and as I was pulling the cans in as fast as I could red appeared on my butt. My ship is fitted with escape in mind and I managed to get two more cans in before getting away. Then a check on the cargo hold. Yes! I got the BPs. The whole thing got my blood pumping. If I hadn't gotten the BPs I would have been bummed but the experience of taking the risk is what I'm after in the game as much as isk.
I like the new hacking game. Yep it's rng but the more I've done it I'm finding it part random, part luck and part skill. It's the same with the loot spew mechanic which I wasn't sure I liked much at first. Yeah sure you can't get everything but I'm finding I'm getting enjoyment from just trying to get the 'good thing' that's in the can and figuring out what I can do better to get more cans. It's less boring. Many of my corp have tried the new system, a few have decided that it's not there thing. For them the risk vs reward balanced with the randomness factor doesn't do it for them. Several are more like me.
I'm liking all the changes (not that it's perfect) so much that yesterday I completely changed my skill plan and short term focus to max out what I need for exploring.
|
Markus Saken
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 12:02:00 -
[553] - Quote
Quote:We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs.
Do you mean something like:
i'm solo in this site, i must bring skills, equipment and stay focus on hacking game to be able to tractor more cans
vs
I'm with friends so i just hack as quick as i can we can grab all candies anyway.
|
Galatea Galilei
Profoundly Inquisitive Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 16:40:00 -
[554] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs. While you're at it, please please PLEASE get the cans onto the overview! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4261
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 16:47:00 -
[555] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:CCP Prime wrote:The fixes going in tomorrow are:
A site will not despawn until all containers that contain loot have either been hacked or destroyed.
This is bad, and is going to result in a lot of sites that have been stripped of any significant value just hanging around indefinitely. At least have them despawn if they've been touched and vacated. I think people are going to "trip" those low value sites to get rid of them faster. Greed is an excellent incentive to be tidy. Pretty sure greed is a better incentive to leave the competition sucking on your sloppy seconds, tbh. There aren't a lot of good reasons to care about a site despawning if you're the one who hit it - especially if you're making good use of WHs to cover a lot of ground. Oh I agree, many will take that approach... but since actually finding new sites that haven't been cherry picked is an issue I think that many will go ahead and pop them so that new (and more valuable) spawns can happen.
This will llkely take place primarily in null where you can control who is working those sites to a large degree. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Desypher Ashborn
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:47:00 -
[556] - Quote
Has anyone noticed a SERIOUSLY REDUCED number of null sec data/relic sites? i flew from Syndicate space through Solitude, at least 35 low sec/null sec hops, and didnt find one relic or data site, and there was virtually no one there whole way.... so dont think they were farmed...
CCP can you look into this? has the %age chance to find in 0.0 or lower been significantly reduced?
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Moth Eisig
The Trident Brotherhood
10
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Posted - 2013.06.13 01:26:00 -
[557] - Quote
Desypher Ashborn wrote:Has anyone noticed a SERIOUSLY REDUCED number of null sec data/relic sites? i flew from Syndicate space through Solitude, at least 35 low sec/null sec hops, and didnt find one relic or data site, and there was virtually no one there whole way.... so dont think they were farmed...
CCP can you look into this? has the %age chance to find in 0.0 or lower been significantly reduced?
Same thing happened to me last weekend. I went through about a dozen systems in Syndicate and found exactly one site (which was being used as bait, so I couldn't even run it). I did get a bunch of sites once I got to Solitude though. |
Desypher Ashborn
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 01:32:00 -
[558] - Quote
cool Moth thanks for info |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2870
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Posted - 2013.06.13 02:14:00 -
[559] - Quote
Selene Nask wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't see where the ability to hunt (or bait a hunter) in exploration sites is going to be a problem.
Intel tools that afford protection still apply.
But consider that an exploration ship, while lacking in tank and sacrificing DPS for the probe launcher can still run a heavy AB to run off with and even field tackle gear too. I used to run a 100MN AB on a Cyclone with a large nuet just to keep tacklers off. (worked great on sleepers too).
Exploration is coming of age. I have yet to even find a site to test a mini game in, but this only leads me to look forward to getting a chance in the future, perhaps a late night session. Frankly the whole profession of Exploration has never been about the maximization of ISK in such manner that mission running in highsec or incursions or nullsec anoms are. Exploration is about that Lara Croft/Indiana Jones aspect of the game. Yes you might hit it big and haul in some serious ISK for mere minutes of work, or you might work all day at it and get nothing. But since 2009 I always found, along with many who like this play style, that it's all about "the find" as Indiana Jones would say.
If you explore and then at the end of it say " I can bring in more ISK in the same amount of time!" or "I didn't get all the cans because of spew/gankers/mini game" then exploration is not for you. The "Productivity maximization" crowd already has well-established content to earn ISK in. Just think of the scene from "Raider of the Lost Ark" when Doctor Jones was swapping the golden idol for a bag of sand, the look on his face, and what happened next (he was basically blobbed by his rival and ransomed for the loot). Think of that and you will get exploration.
I have done mainly this since 2009 and have a station lock box with so much valuable loot in it I can't keep track and I'd say most of my attempts at exploration are mediocre at best, and having been run off many a nullsec site by NPC and player alike (usually in half structure too).
This is the way that I'm looking at it. I explored a bit before the change. I liked it okay but didn't find it that fun. I like making isk like anyone else but when I play I like to have some fun doing it. I know what I can do if I want to max my isk per hour but balance that with whats enjoyable. I don't play this game with 'max isk' as a goal and I know many people who don't just play for that as well. Since the change I've found exploration a lot more fun (fun is subjective of course). And for me the search aspect is part of it. Yesterday I explored for a few hours and made diddly squat. In the two days before I hit some big pay sites and pulled in over 500 million in the first two systems I hit. I like the not knowing what a days exploration will bring in. It makes the good days that much better. If I wanted to know I was going to bring in a certain amount of isk for every hour I play I would run things like missions or incursion where the reward is more predictable. I'm also liking the risk vs reward decisions that need to be made. I jump into a system with a lot of sigs and several people in local. Do I risk it or not? The other day I was busy running a site while being alone in the system. Someone jumped in. I cargo scanned a can a saw two good Bps. Then I saw combat probes so I knew the guy was coming after me. (Now it will be seeing scanner probes or wondering if the person had pre-scanned the system). It then became a race to see if I could hack the can before they appeared. It was a hard can. First attempt failed. Then success and as I was pulling the cans in as fast as I could red appeared on my butt. My ship is fitted with escape in mind and I managed to get two more cans in before getting away. Then a check on the cargo hold. Yes! I got the BPs. The whole thing got my blood pumping. If I hadn't gotten the BPs I would have been bummed but the experience of taking the risk is what I'm after in the game as much as isk. I like the new hacking game. Yep it's rng but the more I've done it I'm finding it part random, part luck and part skill. It's the same with the loot spew mechanic which I wasn't sure I liked much at first. Yeah sure you can't get everything but I'm finding I'm getting enjoyment from just trying to get the 'good thing' that's in the can and figuring out what I can do better to get more cans. It's less boring. Many of my corp have tried the new system, a few have decided that it's not there thing. For them the risk vs reward balanced with the randomness factor doesn't do it for them. Several are more like me. I'm liking all the changes (not that it's perfect) so much that yesterday I completely changed my skill plan and short term focus to max out what I need for exploring.
Ah very good. Your experience shows that not all PVP is "Ship A shoots ship B, Ship B shoots back. Repeat until boom". Your survival did NOT depend on tanking or DPS or how many friends you brought. It depended on how fast you can hack.
This is what lowsec and nullsec exploration has been about: stealth, intel, the ability to GTFO when needed, and how fast you can get in and get the job done before all hell comes down on you. And to boot, you are dealing with other players, not predictable rats.
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Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
270
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 06:44:00 -
[560] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The first thing we'll be doing is getting setup to make Utilities something that can be taken out of the systems you are hacking and fitted into the module in advance of going off hacking. Without doing that hackers are really still at the mercy of the board generation when it comes to making choices. It also adds a secondary income for explorers that is linked to exploring and ties the hacking more into EVE. This is really the first thing that has to happen to add more depth to hacking and isn't an insignificant amount of work.
Following on from that initially it's a case of adding more Defense Subsystems and Utilities to support more interesting things happening.
We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs. Further we'd like to increase the granularity in failure as well. This creates more options for any new systems that get introduced using the same mechanics.
If you guys build a full blown roguelike inside of Eve, I will love you forever.
...I might even use tongue. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14950
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 07:36:00 -
[561] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The first thing we'll be doing is getting setup to make Utilities something that can be taken out of the systems you are hacking and fitted into the module in advance of going off hacking. Without doing that hackers are really still at the mercy of the board generation when it comes to making choices. It also adds a secondary income for explorers that is linked to exploring and ties the hacking more into EVE. This is really the first thing that has to happen to add more depth to hacking and isn't an insignificant amount of work.
Following on from that initially it's a case of adding more Defense Subsystems and Utilities to support more interesting things happening.
We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs. Further we'd like to increase the granularity in failure as well. This creates more options for any new systems that get introduced using the same mechanics. As a matter of course, wouldn't explorers have a module invented that acted like a dampening field? This would have been created to reduce the can spread when they exit the hacked site. This new module doesn't even need to have a new skill associated with it, just use the one for tractor beams.
Just a thought.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 08:13:00 -
[562] - Quote
If you want utilities to become a meaningful secundary income source, hacking should be more profitable than it is today. Right now, prices for decryptors and salvage are dropping everywhere making exploration less profitable. They will stabilize but at a significant lower level than before the expansion.
If you want the hacking utilities to fetch a decent price, the hacking rewards should be worth it or nobody is going to bother.
Decrease in number of sites or loot per site could be an option but that is not good gameplay. Nobody will like to wander through streches of low/null in a non-combatship for hours without finding any sites with decent loot in them.
A possible solution could to decrease the inpact of meta level items at invention, making decrypters more valuable and increasing their demand.
Another possible solution could be to increase the number of sites you can hack. I'd love to hack a (PO)CO to evade the tax. Abandoned POS'es also come to mind.
PS I still hate the loot scattering mechanism with all my heart. I adapted but hugely dislike the experience. |
Doctor Laser
Air Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 09:48:00 -
[563] - Quote
i'd just like to note.. pre Odyssey: regular drops of intact armour plates from salvaging sites in my region.. ive now run 50 or so relic sites and not a single intact plate has dropped..
waste of time, finding alternative - thanks! |
Matthias Vilmet
Parallax Shift The Periphery
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 17:21:00 -
[564] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The first thing we'll be doing is getting setup to make Utilities something that can be taken out of the systems you are hacking and fitted into the module in advance of going off hacking. Without doing that hackers are really still at the mercy of the board generation when it comes to making choices. It also adds a secondary income for explorers that is linked to exploring and ties the hacking more into EVE. This is really the first thing that has to happen to add more depth to hacking and isn't an insignificant amount of work.
Following on from that initially it's a case of adding more Defense Subsystems and Utilities to support more interesting things happening.
We also want to let players be able to influence the result of the hack more. For example in the exploration sites, heading off and tackling certain nodes would let you influence how the scattering of cans occurs. Further we'd like to increase the granularity in failure as well. This creates more options for any new systems that get introduced using the same mechanics.
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