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Ante	Posted - 2005.09.30 04:14:00 - [121] Originally by: Deja Thoris Lmao. 778 vs 900 is 15% off. You must be in Government work if you think that margin of error is trivial. Lmao. I love it you put words in my mouth. Really makes for a great argument.
ChainyMcSmoke	Posted - 2005.09.30 04:23:00 - [122] Well now it had to happen sooner or later i suppose. Bring in line with other ships just means to be made plain useless. Im tired of unimaginative players who say "yes i fly the ship but I think it should be nerfed ...I cry BFS!!!m8;-( or the alternatively veiled nerf suggestion I think they should be brought in line with other CRAP ships. YOu know what I think, uber wallets and alliances should be nerfed so that their wallets are brought in line with my wallet. I think old players should be nerfed so that their skillpoints should be brought in line with mine and I think people with imagination and real tactical playing abilities should be made slow and stupid so their abilities can be brought in line with mine. /sarcasm off. The point is life is NOT fair and never will be. Did you ever think about how a cookie cutter nos/drone setup is so good that its a hindrance...as everyone pretty much already knows how your kitted.???Come on some real imagination here, you people make me want to take my computer out back and shoot it like Elvis did with the T.V.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.30 04:24:00 - [123] 4 ogres is 114dps with heavy drone op 5 and gallente drone spec @ 4 so 808 dps if antes deimos #s are right with 6 dmg mods ------
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.09.30 04:47:00 - [124] Originally by: Jim Raynor 4 ogres is 114dps with heavy drone op 5 and gallente drone spec @ 4 so 808 dps if antes deimos #s are right with 6 dmg mods Yeah. A frigate with a tackling setup could kill it aswell.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:20:00 - [125] Originally by: Ante If you want to be such a pedant consider wrecking hits. Yeah so uh i guess my geddon doesn't really do 1300dps but rather, 3000 if you include wrecking hits coming off all 7 pulses as well as all my 10 heavy drones (statistically possible) Wrecking/missed hits are never calculated in raw dps calculations. Thats why it's called raw Originally by: Sorja Everybody has to pay for his ammo (besides Amarr...). Not all of us can get our moms to buy our crystals. I can't at least /emote looks at his 20m worth in crystals in his apocs cargo bay ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Jim Raynor 4 ogres is 114dps with heavy drone op 5 and gallente drone spec @ 4 so 808 dps if antes deimos #s are right with 6 dmg mods Is that 100% accurate? If so that means an Ishtar does 427.5 DPS through drones. Thats a bit more then i expected... ________________________________________________________
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:36:00 - [127] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Jim Raynor 4 ogres is 114dps with heavy drone op 5 and gallente drone spec @ 4 so 808 dps if antes deimos #s are right with 6 dmg mods Is that 100% accurate? If so that means an Ishtar does 427.5 DPS through drones. Thats a bit more then i expected... Ishtar only does 427.5DPS in drones if the pilot has 4M SP in drones and is stupid enough to bring a full rack of Ogre IIs into combat
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:37:00 - [128] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Jim Raynor 4 ogres is 114dps with heavy drone op 5 and gallente drone spec @ 4 so 808 dps if antes deimos #s are right with 6 dmg mods Is that 100% accurate? If so that means an Ishtar does 427.5 DPS through drones. Thats a bit more then i expected... Ogre IIs do 22 base damage, , 1.92x dmg mod, then x1.25 for the heavy drone skill, then x1.08 gallante drone specialization (since I assume most people don't have it @ 5), then divide by 2 (rate of fire of 2 seconds). I get ~28.5 DPS on every Ogre II. So an Ishtar is doing a lot of DPS yeah, if it has 15 drones out and they're Ogre IIs.. :\ ------
Theta9	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:45:00 - [129] well ok lets say nerf the ishtar exacly how would you intend to nerf it? the ishtar is a dedicated tech 2 drone ship. thats its nitch so unless it can use 15 heavy drones it no longer has a nich. The ishtar needs 15 heavies in order to stay in line with what a hac's lowering drone bay makes it only a little better than a vexor 10 heavies arnt enough. in the end with Heavy assault ship skill lvl 5 you get 500 drone cap wich is enough for 15 heavies and 5 heavies in reserve (i usually put lights in as fof cannon foder and really fast intie killers) would you reduce the pg and cpu? well since its already got lower pg and cpu compared to tier 3 CRUISERS not much point there. Thing is there really isnt anything to nerf unless you want to make it slower but I dont really care about speed. moving some slots around? maybe but you end up with the problem of either a uber tank uber nos power or uber EW the slot layout is perfect the way it is imho so not much to do there. maybe you could add some mass to make ab's less effective. i dont really know but please tell me how you intend to nerf a ship is actually sitting just above the boarder of underpowered but because its just slightly over the bar combined with its versitilty thats were its strength comes from. Nerfing any one thing will make the ishtar completely worthless.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:49:00 - [130] Originally by: Theta9 well ok lets say nerf the ishtar exacly how would you intend to nerf it? the ishtar is a dedicated tech 2 drone ship. thats its nitch so unless it can use 15 heavy drones it no longer has a nich. The ishtar needs 15 heavies in order to stay in line with what a hac's lowering drone bay makes it only a little better than a vexor 10 heavies arnt enough. in the end with Heavy assault ship skill lvl 5 you get 500 drone cap wich is enough for 15 heavies and 5 heavies in reserve (i usually put lights in as fof cannon foder and really fast intie killers) would you reduce the pg and cpu? well since its already got lower pg and cpu compared to tier 3 CRUISERS not much point there. Thing is there really isnt anything to nerf unless you want to make it slower but I dont really care about speed. moving some slots around? maybe but you end up with the problem of either a uber tank uber nos power or uber EW the slot layout is perfect the way it is imho so not much to do there. maybe you could add some mass to make ab's less effective. i dont really know but please tell me how you intend to nerf a ship is actually sitting just above the boarder of underpowered but because its just slightly over the bar combined with its versitilty thats were its strength comes from. Nerfing any one thing will make the ishtar completely worthless. heavy drones track pretty well ------
Theta9	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:50:00 - [131] Edited by: Theta9 on 30/09/2005 05:51:33 thats not a problem with the ishtar so this should have put up a nerf the heavy drones in wich case i would have to agree but again i use heavies against cruisers and bs's wich they were designed and lights against inties (i have more than enough drone space) so your point there is erelevent to the nerf the ishtar post
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.30 05:54:00 - [132] Originally by: Theta9 Edited by: Theta9 on 30/09/2005 05:51:33 thats not a problem with the ishtar so this should have put up a nerf the heavy drones in wich case i would have to agree but again i use heavies against cruisers and bs's wich they were designed and lights against inties (i have more than enough drone space) so your point there is erelevent to the nerf the ishtar post i never said the ishtar needed nerfed. i think drones vs smaller ships could be looked at though, light drones are useless, mediums are pretty crap, and heavys are pretty freaking good against everything still. considering the ishtars main weapon, is drones, yes nerfing heavys in any way would be a nerf to the ishtar ------
Theta9	Posted - 2005.09.30 06:05:00 - [133] lol technicaly a nerf the heavy drones would be a nerf to every ship that can use them (wich means almost all bs's) but that is besides the point. and i did agree with you that large drones should have as much chance at hitting a fast intie as maybe a low tracking medium gun (maybe in the 200mm railgun range) i dont know they should track better than bs guns but not as insanly as they do nos.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.09.30 07:08:00 - [134] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Theta9 Edited by: Theta9 on 30/09/2005 05:51:33 thats not a problem with the ishtar so this should have put up a nerf the heavy drones in wich case i would have to agree but again i use heavies against cruisers and bs's wich they were designed and lights against inties (i have more than enough drone space) so your point there is erelevent to the nerf the ishtar post i never said the ishtar needed nerfed. i think drones vs smaller ships could be looked at though, light drones are useless, mediums are pretty crap, and heavys are pretty freaking good against everything still. considering the ishtars main weapon, is drones, yes nerfing heavys in any way would be a nerf to the ishtar Ok, drones use tracking you know. You see people who use rails/arty's on there ships and able to pop approuching frigs? Well that's the same concept of heavy drones approuching or being approuched by an object. There is very limited tracking issues due to the fact the object is only moving in the shortest distant (A straight line). Once you reach and get in orbit you will see a change. If you approuch or run away, you will see your ship change. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Vicious Vic	Posted - 2005.09.30 07:34:00 - [135] ffs fit some FOF's or a smart bomb and stop whining.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.30 07:55:00 - [136] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Ok, drones use tracking you know. Ogre I: Tracking speed: 0.24 rad/s Signature Radius: 25m Medium Pulse II: Tracking speed: 0.197 rad/s Signature Radius: 40m Certainly rapes the tracking of med pulses, maybe even all small guns. The reason i think this is because of the 25m sig rad, cba to do calcs tho ________________________________________________________
LWMaverick	Posted - 2005.09.30 08:10:00 - [137] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: slothe Originally by: FalloutBoy omg the ishtar is a huge skill and isk investment it should be good at what it does, and considering its entire offence can be killed with a smartbomb I don't see the issue. I mean hell a dominix has been able to do the same thing as the ishtar for years and no one has complained dominix > ishtar , and you get your full insurance with it. plus u can mine in it too :/ Why are YOU putting battleships vs HACS to make a point on BALANCE? It's like saying "Sure the frig that has 8 gun turret hardpoints can eaisly be beat by my gankgeddon". Do you like think at all? Wait you're F-E, sheep don't think... That REALLY ****ed me off, Cut the F-E insult crap mmkay?.. FFS! Stick to the damn point! If you want peace prepare for war !
Fi T'Zeh	Posted - 2005.09.30 08:23:00 - [138] What's awesome is that on one side we have complaints that HACs are too hard to come by. And on the other we have a complaint that a HAC is over powered. Has anyone ever stopped to consider the two things might just possibly be connected ???? Good ship = hard to get ? ....
MOS DEF	Posted - 2005.09.30 09:10:00 - [139] Boooohooooooo! Have a tissue everyone!
Alliandre Breton	Posted - 2005.09.30 09:44:00 - [140] Originally by: Ante OK. Heavy Ion Blaster II 3.375 x 1.25 (med hybrid) x 1.25 (ship bonus) x 1.1 (blaster spec) x 1.15 (surgical strike) x (1.1 x 1.09 etc) (damage mods; not 100% sure on stacking penalty but 6x mag stab II) x 1.05 (+5% imp for 15m) = ~11 damage mod 4.5 x .9 (gunnery) x .8 (rapid fire) x (.895 x .91 etc) (damage mods) = ~1.9 rof. Assume 11x and 1.9 second rof rounded. Antimatter M charge does 14 kinetic and 10 thermal damage. 11 x 14 + 11 x 10 = 264 damage x 5 blasters = 1320 damage divided by 1.9 rof = 694. 7368421 raw dps. Then add 4x t2 heavy drones. I think you missed one of the bonuses: "Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% less penalty to max capacitor capacity for Microwarpdrive usage per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level" //ali
Hi'Ryan Greetos	Posted - 2005.09.30 09:49:00 - [141] Nerf whine gets you there people. Missiles > own3d Mega pulse > own3d Thorax & plates > own3d So next locical point to whiners was Ishtar. You knew it was coming but you hoped that you would survive it. Not a change. Whells of nerf whiners are already started. Perhaps you can win THIS battle but more topics will follow. Enjoy while it lasts.
von Torgo	Posted - 2005.09.30 10:00:00 - [142] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Death Merchant Edited by: Death Merchant on 30/09/2005 04:05:00 94% of all nerf threads started by one of these three groups: a) If I lose to a ship it must be overpowered group. b) My ship sucks I want yours to suck to group c) I have no girlfriend, heres some math about dps group. i have a girlfriend Me too and we both do dps in a group
Justice Bringer	Posted - 2005.09.30 10:20:00 - [143] Originally by: Denrace I expect to get flamed like a side of beef on a barby for making this post - but: it needs to be said. Before I begin to answer your points and make fun of you I'd really like to know WHAT HAPPENED to you out in the furthest darkest place in space that compelled you to write this post? Did you arrive at a gate and find yoursdelf surrounded by 15 Ishtars all sporting the latest in Electronic Warfare Hardware and Engineering Technology? Did they all proceed to warp scramble you, web you, Disrupt your tracking, remote sensor damp you, use jamming technology on you, and bleed you dry with a combination of 15 x 5 x (NOS + NEUT), and then launch 15^2 worth of a combination of Tech II heavy drones????? If that's the case then I can really understand why you're complaining. Now on the other hand if you encountered a LONE Ishtar pilot and you thought to yourself 'right I'm gonna take this sucker out', and in your zeal to defeat said pilot you never stopped to ask yourself 'Hmmm, what combination of modules can i use to prevent myself from being jammed, NOSed, tracking disrupted, etc etc', you would have arrived at the conclusion that your current setup was probably not best suited to even begin an encounter with said Ishtar pilot even if he wasn't sporting any of the nice toys I already mentioned. Just out of curiosity, tell us all what ship you were flying and what setup you were using and also what skills you have. Go on tell us, I dare you, no I double dare you. Right since you mentioned that all Ishtar pilots fit an AB II and can do over 500m/s well I'll tell you straight away that in MY Ishtar I get 621m/s. How would you counter this? Easy fit an AB II of your own, or MWD and keep at range. That will stop you from being a) Webbed and b) Nosed and Neutered like a cat (meow ). How would you counter being jammed or remote sensor damped into oblivion, well that to is easy just fit the module that boosts your resistance to jamming in your low slot. Also if you're a competant missile pilot of any worth, you'll be carrying FOF missiles in your bay. They are not prone to jamming nor do they require you to have a lock on your target. USE THEM and they can destroy drones that you think you can't kill. And what kind of ship do you think is NOS resistant, well I've already half answered that question and missiles are great in that role as are projectile turrets as they do not require any CAP to fire their rounds. So yes i'm referring to a Munin, and the Vagabond which will be much faster than any Ishtar. This is really too simple even for me, and I've only been playing for 11 months or so. Why can't you figure this stuff out for yourself instead of crying like a BABY like all the Nerf the Thorax whiners????? Do your research dude, and fit your ship accordingly. Stop looking for someone else to do your job for you. Bad workmen always blame thier tools. In your case you're blaming someone elses tools for being better than your own. How foolish is that???? Someone in this thread mention usnig 1600 plate on an Ishtar, well that is totally impractical because with lvl 5 engineering and the 500 pg requirement you'll only have 300 odd grid left to fit the other modules. One guy mentioned that he wouldn't mind the Ishtar getting nerfed if whilst warping out other ships lost their turrets and misile bays. I have to agree with him on that front, even if it is a silly one. But the point is in order to launch 15 heavy drones, as I can, it takes even longer to train the drone skills on top of any gunnery skills too. I made that choice because it is a DRONE CARRIER pure and simple and this is what i wanted before i ge tinto a BS. They are the main weapon and hence the reason, as someone else posted, as to why the Ishtar has one of the lowest CPU and Grid compared to other HAS.
Justice Bringer	Posted - 2005.09.30 10:21:00 - [144] 'cont'd' This post is almost pointless, simply because you haven't also said Nerf the Vexor and Nerf the Dominix as well. They too can do what you have been trying to describe, the Vexor to a lesser degree and the Dominix does it better and yet you think that it's the Ishtar that must be smashed. Go read Pottsey's post on passive shield tanking that he uses on his Dominix then complain that he does't need any cap to use his passive modules ergo they need to be nerfed as well. Come on guys this is beyond a joke now and it's become very tedious. Train your skills, use the modules that are available, and have fun. Stop complaining all the time. Oh and CCP if you read this lenghty post, can you please give the Ishtar 3 more slots, one in each position and that will be top. Thanks. Justice
Denrace	Posted - 2005.09.30 10:48:00 - [145] Edited by: Denrace on 30/09/2005 10:48:09 If you dont like nerf threads, dont read them. If you dont like cheese, dont eat it. If you hate horror films, dont watch them. Free will is quite a nice thing really. ____________________________________________ Custom Sigs Made. Convo for details http://photobucket.com/albums/b4/Denrace/
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2005.09.30 10:57:00 - [146] Great. Next you'll want Domi nerfed and Geddong to have 1000m^3 drone bay. Gallente are the drone race, leave their drone ships alone!
Justice Bringer	Posted - 2005.09.30 11:02:00 - [147] You still didn't answer my questions? What ship, what skills, what happened? Come on don't be shy now, we all want to know why you're really posting this thread. When you've got the Ishtar nerfed and you encounter another ship that beats you into submission, will you then be asking to have that ship nerfed because etc etc etc... Come now, tell us the story.
Justice Bringer	Posted - 2005.09.30 11:11:00 - [148] Originally by: Denrace Free will is quite a nice thing really. Indeed it is. Next time you see an Ishtar in space, RUN.......!!!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.09.30 11:26:00 - [149] anythnig can get away from ishtar. Strap on an mwd and the ishtar won't nos you. Meaning he has no tank meaning hes dead. Man I hate these stupid people who wants everythnig o be idiotproof...
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.09.30 11:29:00 - [150] Originally by: Denrace Edited by: Denrace on 30/09/2005 10:48:09 If you dont like nerf threads, dont read them. If you dont like cheese, dont eat it. If you hate horror films, dont watch them. Free will is quite a nice thing really. If you don't like nerf threads don't read em? If you wanna whine and not let anyone say anyhjthing about it do it on your own private forums like www.whineforum.com. Go register and whine there if you don't want other people to read this.

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