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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kor'el Izia
30
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Posted - 2013.05.02 00:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:Here at goonswarm we try to make hi-sec tears as much as possible. I fear ccp fozzie has bested us this time though. Tears of joy that is |
Kardek Stormlord
The Fallen Legion
0
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Posted - 2013.05.02 00:11:00 -
[62] - Quote
Good write up Jita.
Entertaining CCP spends Dev budget to make sure there is less content for their player base (even with mining as boring as it is).
Unless the agenda here is to encourage botting as this new system seems to designed to encourage it?
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
969
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Posted - 2013.05.02 01:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kor'el Izia wrote:IrJosy wrote:Here at goonswarm we try to make hi-sec tears as much as possible. I fear ccp fozzie has bested us this time though. Tears of joy that is
That makes you one of the smarter ones, then. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Manny Moons
New Order Logistics CODE.
69
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Posted - 2013.05.02 02:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:...In any event, the amount of ice in high sec can only support about 35% of the ice miners that are currently operating there. The ice just will not spawn fast enough to support more... I don't think this number is correct, at least not in terms of the total market for ice (since current ice miners don't supply more than 100% of the market). Or maybe your definition of "support" is different from mine. If you mean "keep busy with lasers running" then okay, maybe. If you mean "provide the level of income to which they are accustomed" then that's something else entirely.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
923
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Posted - 2013.05.02 02:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ditra Vorthran wrote:Ignoring the mining aspect (which the OP did and excellent job covering), I'd like to turn the discussion to logistics and politics.
At some point, the demand of ice products is going to outstrip supply. Combining that with ganks, wardecs, null wars, cloakers, and so on means that the day of reckoning will arrive that much sooner.
So what will happen? Will the 0.0 groups go to war with each other over precious ice resources? Will the big blue donut get even bigger as groups band together to share? Will 0.0 bears come to high sec and 'take over' the high sec ice belts (after all, what's easier, structure grinding or knocking over a bunch of carebeary sand castles?)
We could be looking at a case of not enough fields, and too many farms. I see this too. It's 10x easier to mine in highsec (perfect refine, freighter runs, no need to compress) and if you don't have a wardec, easier to do as well.
I'm all for doing everything in nullsec if I can, ice mining included, but this 4 hour timer is going to suck. It'll be much easier to just hit up high sec for ice as a corp/alliance and jump it back out. As I said before, this will drastically impact T2 prices as well if a tower costs even more to fuel. Heck, I'm not even really worried about prices going up...I'm worried their won't be enough supply to keep all the towers fueled.
If this change is really directed at high sec, I think it's awesome. Cuts down on bots, lowers supply a bit and increases prices (which are abysmal), but making a blanket change like this and including low/null doesn't seem to make much sense. There aren't huge bot fleets in null sec mining ice all day long. If we want to do an ice mining day to fuel corp towers, I'm not sure why we are getting penalized for it under this new system. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
102
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Posted - 2013.05.02 04:10:00 -
[66] - Quote
I also have some similar concerns around the ice changes. I currently mine Dark Glitter exclusively, otherwise there is no point in ice mining in null. If I were to mine the other ice types I would just do it in high sec with less risk.
I'm happy to wait and see, but if I end up having to spend all my time mining high sec ice in null sec, then I might as well move back to high sec, or switch to ore mining.
In the end it all depends on the composition of the null sec ice anoms. Would be nice to have more information on that.
My two cents anyway. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4844
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Posted - 2013.05.02 04:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kor'el Izia wrote:IrJosy wrote:Here at goonswarm we try to make hi-sec tears as much as possible. I fear ccp fozzie has bested us this time though. Tears of joy that is Wow, someone who actually understands these changes yet doesn't live in nullsec. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
970
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Posted - 2013.05.02 04:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jason Xado wrote:I also have some similar concerns around the ice changes. I currently mine Dark Glitter exclusively, otherwise there is no point in ice mining in null. If I were to mine the other ice types I would just do it in high sec with less risk.
I'm happy to wait and see, but if I end up having to spend all my time mining high sec ice in null sec, then I might as well move back to high sec, or switch to ore mining.
In the end it all depends on the composition of the null sec ice anoms. Would be nice to have more information on that.
My two cents anyway.
So you're on board the "You've buffed my overall income considerably but since I'd have to average dark glitter with enhanced highsec ice instead of mining nothing but DG I'll just go to highsec instead" bandwagon too, huh? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Danni stark
73
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Posted - 2013.05.02 06:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
the above post is why i voted for mynnna for the csm. Yay, this account hasn't had it's signature banned. or it's account, if you're reading this. |
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
61
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Posted - 2013.05.02 07:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
Partak Cadelanne wrote:What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety. I agree entirely. I've never mined in this game beyond the tutorial. A new, more engaging mechanic would make it an attractive activity.
CCP, go play Asteroids, then go back to thinking about mining!
James Rockwell wrote:Now that the ice belts are anomalies I vote for them to be redone into comets. So you warp to these comets with the long tail and everything. Comets have been shown to be 10-30km. Or at least an added feature to scan down with probes in all systems for rare ice in these comets, enough for a solo pilot. For some reason, this was rumored to be the actual change before fanfest. Maybe it's an idea they considered.
Mathrin wrote:You guys need to get away from compression, and exporting to jita. This system is not made for that. The new changes are to encourage local markets independent of highsec trade hubs. Ice isn't supposed to be compressed . It's supposed to be used to manufacture things like fuel blocks to be sold to your alliance and alles in your area. I really don't understand this fetish for keeping everything local. Did we all turn into space hipsters overnight? Are we all trying to run Space Whole Foods?
Long-distance shipping is an integral part of a highly developed economy. In a free market it makes sense to perform an activity in order to produce things, ship them, sell them, make money, then buy things, and have them shipped to you. It's an exchange of goods that makes things faster and easier for both parties. Welp a fleet in nullsec? Would you like to produce all those hulls yourself or buy them at a trade hub? I'm sure you can imagine which option would be better. |
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Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
238
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Posted - 2013.05.02 07:57:00 -
[71] - Quote
I've just caught up on the thread. I'd like to re-iterate that you cannot break the bond between nullsec and highsec ice supplies.
Nullsec is absolutely dependent on the racial ice supplied by the 4 empires. It is not feasible for nullsec to switch to using just one type of racial tower that coincides with their local isotope product. This would be equivalent to asking players to only fly one race of ship. Each control tower has unique bonuses which suit them to specific tasks. Until control towers are fundamentally changed this argument cannot hold.
You could refine your ice products locally, but for certain ice like Dark Glitter this only vastly increases the m3 of product that must be exported. Dark Glitter is the primary source of ozone in the game, and these changes are going make gathering that ice much more difficult. Ozone must be supplied to empire.
I'm feel compelled to put a stop to the incorrect values being thrown around in here. In the months prior to fanfest Dark Glitter was earning 36mil/hr and the 10% racial ices earned 12.2mil/hr. That placed Dark Glitter at 3x better than the 10% racial ice. At current unstable market prices the speculators have generously pushed isotopes up from the 350 range to an astounding 760 range. It would be shortsighted to believe that a 20% reduction in the supply of isotope supply warrants a 220% increase in isotope prices across the board.
Now just to emphasize the point, assume that isotope prices hold at this value. Dark Glitter post expansion would be 50mil/hr x2, and 10% racial ice would be 26.5mil/hr x2. That still places Dark Glitter at roughly twice the value of the best racial ice. I've made this handy comparison chart to show how ice prices will compare before and after assuming pricing doesn't change at all. You'll note the heavy value placed on the "bad ice" effectively rendering the "good ice" a burden to mine by comparison. (Please note that the after category would technically be twice the rate shown, but it's the ratio of ice values that I wanted to showcase)
But once we step back we realize that isotope prices will drop and probably settle around the 500-600 range. However it's unlikely ozone will drop again. Without any other significant source of ozone in the game, and the increased difficulty of mining it in bulk the prices will continue to rise. This will once again push Dark Glitter to complete ice dominance in terms of value.
But why is this?
Let's take a moment to examine the types of ice and how their composition is incorrectly aligned with truesec. The original intention of nullsec ice was a ranked scale of value (Krystallos > Gelidus > Dark Glitter > Glare Crust) with strontium being the highly valued ice product. But right now Dark Glitter has complete dominance due to a lack of ozone source anywhere else in the game. If you want to rebalance ice mining to provide greater incentive for nullsec miners then the refined products of ice should be changed to accomplish this - just like the ore composition changes are fixing the ore problem.
It's been stated that the nullsec ice fields will include a greater amount of "better ice" based on the sec status of the system ("I wasn't happy with the way the best truesec systems often missed out on good ice so each tier builds upon the one before instead of replacing"). But that incorrectly assumes that Gelidus and Krystallos are more valuable than Dark Glitter (see above chart). As a result of that change, the lower the truesec of the ice system the less valuable it would be to mine.
This whole system is introducing power creep to ice mining for no reason. Doubling the ice mining rate will not yield a net double in income because miners will be forced into lengthy frustrating downtimes. This is only going to exclude casual miners with non-flexible hours from ever experiencing the ice mining profession.
We should instead be rebalancing the refined product yield for each type of ice. If the supply of highsec isotopes is too high then the rebalance should reflect this by lowering the refined supply slightly. Likewise the value of nullsec ice should be reflected by the "sec status quality" of the ice. This essentially means that Krystallos should contain the most ozone, Gelidus the second most, etc.
If there is a desire to remove nullsec isotope dependence on highsec then the full spectrum of racial isotopes need to be obtainable in any nullsec empire - and I do not believe CCP actually desires this. If they did, it could be accomplished through ihub industry upgrades forcing systems to specialize in certain kinds of ice (Comet catching arrays, etc).
Last but not least, why should ore compress fast but not ice? We've already demonstrated that ice products mined in nullsec MUST be exported to highsec. If we truly want to enable ice miners in nullsec then we must give them fair and balanced tools to do so.
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Danni stark
74
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Posted - 2013.05.02 08:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
something you may not have considered; due to the decreased cycle time, ice harvesting is now a valid method of increasing/maintaining the industry index in sov systems. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
103
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Posted - 2013.05.02 10:56:00 -
[73] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Jason Xado wrote:I also have some similar concerns around the ice changes. I currently mine Dark Glitter exclusively, otherwise there is no point in ice mining in null. If I were to mine the other ice types I would just do it in high sec with less risk.
I'm happy to wait and see, but if I end up having to spend all my time mining high sec ice in null sec, then I might as well move back to high sec, or switch to ore mining.
In the end it all depends on the composition of the null sec ice anoms. Would be nice to have more information on that.
My two cents anyway. So you're on board the "You've buffed my overall income considerably but since I'd have to average dark glitter with enhanced highsec ice instead of mining nothing but DG I'll just go to highsec instead" bandwagon too, huh? e: Let's make sure that what you are saying is put into proper context here. I'm going to rewrite your post for you, using today's prices as a reference point. Jason Xado wrote:Right now I mine dark glitter exclusively. Before prices went nuts it was 20m/hr which is really bad but worth it because it didn't really deplete.
After the patch my belts will have all kinds of ice in it, so I'll make 30-36m/hr from my racial ice and 36m/hr from my gelidus and 48m/hr from my glare crust and 72m/hr from my dark glitter, and it will all average out to a nice income of 40m/hr or so.
But because part of that 40m/hr or so is mining enhanced empire ice for a mere 30-36m/hr, I'm going to just go to empire, where I have to compete with the raging locust swarm that will be empire miners, and mine the empire racial ice (which is worse than the nullsec racial ice!) for 26-30m/hr instead. There. Fixed your post for you.
Like I said I'm happy to wait and see where the numbers fall out, we really don't know yet how this will all play out and where the prices will move. I'm saying if I can only make 5% more mining ice in null I might as well be in high sec. Though I would probably just switch to ore mining. I like your numbers so hopefully you are right :-) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5669
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 11:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
You make an excellent point about the non-racial ices Jita, and it's something we're keeping in mind as we work on the composition of the 0.0 ice belts.
One quick note I want to respond to however:
Jita Bloodtear wrote: We should instead be rebalancing the refined product yield for each type of ice. If the supply of highsec isotopes is too high then the rebalance should reflect this by lowering the refined supply slightly
The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Carniflex
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
80
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Posted - 2013.05.02 11:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:You make an excellent point about the non-racial ices Jita, and it's something we're keeping in mind as we work on the composition of the 0.0 ice belts. One quick note I want to respond to however: Jita Bloodtear wrote: We should instead be rebalancing the refined product yield for each type of ice. If the supply of highsec isotopes is too high then the rebalance should reflect this by lowering the refined supply slightly
The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes.
Damn it man. You are freaking me out here. You mean that with THAT kind of oversupply the price per isotope was ~350 isk / unit ? Doing some sloppy math assuming 20 mil / h per account yield I ended up with isotope price of ~520 isk / unit mining the "thick" versions in the null sec.
So I was kinda assuming that the current ~750 isk / unit is just speculative overreaction. But if I read you correct and the ice supply is approx 600 times greater than demand (1 block atm yields 300 units, if 1 block would need to yield 1/2 of a unit thats the difference I get) then I might have miscalculated something pretty bad. OR do you mean instead that you would need to cut the yield to ~50 % of the current putting it at approx ~150 units / block and I am just misreading your statement ?
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5670
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 11:29:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ice prices are not currently affected at all by supply, because supply is so high it might as well be infinite.
We're adjusting the supply to have a fairly mild (but noticeable) affect on prices.
Completely unnecessary analogy:
Currently since supply is practically infinite it's like the ice market has no restrictions at all except people's desires to participate in the market.
After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
933
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Posted - 2013.05.02 11:48:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope.
How very vanilla. |
Danni stark
74
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Posted - 2013.05.02 11:49:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:not enough to make a safeword necessary.
that kind of thinking is going to get you in trouble one day... Ice Mining Skill Plan. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
72
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Posted - 2013.05.02 11:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ice prices are not currently affected at all by supply, because supply is so high it might as well be infinite.
That statement doesn't make much sense, as the effective ice supply in the market has a finite ceiling via # of ice miners * # of hours mined per. Theoretical ice supply in the belts is completely irrelevant in this picture.
You could have just as well controlled that limited supply by adjusting refined values of ice and thereby making ice mining more or less attractive, thus manipulating the number of ice miners.
Limiting the ice supply via fixed amounts in ice anomalies and respawn rates is just another approach to the same goal, that gives CCP a bit more direct control over the ice supply that reaches the markets - or maybe it just seems so.
In order to correctly estimate the amount of ice thus injected into the market, you not only need to know the number of ice generated, but also the quota harvested. And while you have complete control over the former, the later depends on the same factors you had before - # of ice miners * hours mined and as another unknown: # of anoms going to waste because miners are elsewhere or not operating in the timezone those anomalies spawn.
Which means in the end you are not gaining but losing control over the effective available supply. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
559
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Posted - 2013.05.02 12:29:00 -
[80] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:not enough to make a safeword necessary. that kind of thinking is going to get you in trouble one day... They can't say stop if you break their jaw ;) |
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Urban Trucker
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.05.02 12:29:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ice prices are not currently affected at all by supply, because supply is so high it might as well be infinite.
We're adjusting the supply to have a fairly mild (but noticeable) affect on prices.
Completely unnecessary analogy:
Currently since supply is practically infinite the ice market has no restrictions at all except people's desires to participate in the market.
After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.
.... now I like ya Fozzie :-P
I have a perspective I'd like to give out atm. Right now I am one of the logistic's guys in a wormhole corp. We spend "Literally" a ton of time just hauling in either fuel blocks, or the materials needed to make fuel. Now yes, it sucks to some degree, but that is the apple we've bitten off.
Now I do understand (I guess I do) the reasons why to not put icebelts in wormholes (k-space interaction, etc). I don't think that the concept has been explored enough. Couldn't icebelts be spawned in wormhole space that has no Moons?
Aka, couldn't a set amount of wormholes be created (c1-c5), that have no moons to anchor a POS at, and that spawn ice? So people could not anchor a tower there, but they could bring in orca's, barges, exhumers to mine in a connecting wormhole that has ice, but no moons. It would be temporary endeavors, would spawn a bit more exploration (searching for the ice holes), and cause more conflict? Since the ice wormhole can't anchor a pos, people would have to move the stuff back and forth between holes. It would be "Temporary", and the mass limit's on the connecting holes themselves would cause some interesting events.
I'm curious if this would be a viable experiment, as this would be another area where ice could be mined, as well as a good possible location of conflict.
If you really want to drive people nuts, make the ice wormholes huge (greater than 256 au). You'd have people literally falling over each other., random ganks going on, people trying to find connecting holes, probes everywhere, dscan ships flying back and forth, localized conflicts with ships. People trying to roll connecting holes to close it, or to trap the miner's in the icebelts.. etc.
The concept above causes the following. Yes there would be a bunch of new wormholes that spawn ice. THere would be no moons in it to drop POS's (NO POS's in these holes). It would cause more organized groups of people to mine the stuff out. It would make wormhole mining a bit more "interesting" and cause some more cohesion within the groups. With the changes Ice harvesters (speed), it would make ice mining a little less "Painful", and also if the holes are THAT large, it would allow the pvp fleets, at least in some way, to not require the ships to constantly fit a cloak, would cause groups to be off grid, scouts to do other things, etc.
It would create a new market, but might also alleviate a little stress some people are having with the whole ice changes.
Just an idea. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5671
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Posted - 2013.05.02 12:45:00 -
[82] - Quote
New wormhole space with no moons is an idea I have liked for a while. And yes, if we do ever add more wormhole space we can re-evaluate the option of giving that new space ice. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Urban Trucker
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.05.02 12:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:New wormhole space with no moons is an idea I have liked for a while. And yes, if we do ever add more wormhole space we can re-evaluate the option of giving that new space ice.
Thank you for the reply. Till then, I'll just keep on Truck'in.
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2013.05.02 13:11:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:New wormhole space with no moons is an idea I have liked for a while. And yes, if we do ever add more wormhole space we can re-evaluate the option of giving that new space ice.
Fozzie I would be curious how much that game design presentation has been considered and if there are any plans to make either new wormhole space or more of a 0.0 bleak lands space that could be added? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
923
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Posted - 2013.05.02 13:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Um, supply is infinite but its limited to the number of people who mine ice right? There are tons of belts in nullsec that are barely touched, why do we need to be under the same system that seems to be targeted at empire?
I can understand the idea of not having two separate systems to code but can we get different tiers of ice in a belt with reduced respawn timers? For instance x units and 4 hour respawn for high sec, x * 50% units and a 2 hour respawn for lowsec, and x * 100% units and no respawn timer (will respawn though) for null?
If increased risk = increased reward, why is ice mining having a blanket change like this? Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Moon Dogg
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.05.02 13:48:00 -
[86] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. How very vanilla. My safe word is "molecule".
Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. |
Strata Maslav
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
57
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Posted - 2013.05.02 13:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
Obviously off topic but the post from trucker and Fozzie got me dreaming.
The idea of a "HUB" wormhole is quite nice. Larger system with more then you average wormhole connections that would connecting many entities together almost like a "wormhole arena". No moons for POSes and specific PvE content to try to drive conflict, (high yield ice).
The wormholes that are attached to these systems could even allow larger amounts of mass to pass through them to aid in the invasion of entrenched w-space or made smaller so that entities are unable to entrench the system with capitals.
These systems would probably be more like the true W-space initially envisioned by the DEVs. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 14:59:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.
You heard it here first folks, CCP is going to **** the market for ice.
MARKET PANIC BUY NOW AAAAAAHHHH |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
178
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Posted - 2013.05.02 15:13:00 -
[89] - Quote
i like the concept of depleting ice spawns, but hate the idea of locust swarms in empire. though i spend most of my time in NPC null, having access to hi-sec ice belts helps offset the cost of running my towers. i'd be much more partial to some type of random spawn of the ice belts in hi-sec, so we actually had to explore for them in various systems. this would be much more in line with the theme of exploration as opposed to showing up at the know system and waiting for a timer.
the proposed ice mechanics do not make for very interesting content and will only serve to frustrate existing players instead of giving them something to look forward to. As many have stated before, weGÇÖre going to end up with a swarm of ice miners descending on existing ice systems waiting for their timers to reset. the overall change to ice mining will result in increased prices for ice products and place greater value on this activity, however, the mechanism for obtaining this valuable resource will be one of the most dull and unfun activities in game: waiting on timers. instead we should try to make the ice miners do something besides just mine ice. make them look for it or pay someone else to find it for them, as opposed to just waiting around in system for ice to spawn. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
640
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 15:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote: I'm feel compelled to put a stop to the incorrect values being thrown around in here. In the months prior to fanfest Dark Glitter was earning 36mil/hr and the 10% racial ices earned 12.2mil/hr. That placed Dark Glitter at 3x better than the 10% racial ice. At current unstable market prices the speculators have generously pushed isotopes up from the 350 range to an astounding 760 range. A 20% reduction in highsec ice will not warrant a long-term 220% increase in isotope prices.
This is wrong, and here's why. What matters for these things is the marginal cost: how much that last bit of ice costs to meet the last bit of demand. It does not matter that most ice must be supplied from highsec: what matters is that ice must be high enough to encourage nullsec and lowsec to mine that remaining 20%. That, or prices must skyrocket high enough that usage drops by 20%. That's also a pretty high range.
We should see the highsec ice belts rapidly picked clean by people making nullsec mining profits in highsec (balanced, of course, by that they can't do it consistently). In nullsec, the price of ice will rise until the overall mining of the ice belts is worth doing compared to other mining activities, and generates enough to fulfill 20% of the game's ice mining needs (or, slightly over tripling the ice mining currently going on).
You have to look at that end marginal cost, not the 80% cheap supply. |
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