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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
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CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
1102
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Posted - 2013.05.02 15:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Aye. But for those that want to rat up their sec they are looking to receive a slight Nerf in comparison to what they can do now with chair. Ratting.
Personally I haven't made it past shooting one rat before I decide -9 something isn't so bad in a while. We raised this exact same question when discussing this internally. It is my understanding that ratting in lowsec, collecting tags, and turning them in will be comparable to the sec gain that can be obtained by currently chain-ratting in 0.0 space, simply moved into lowsec. So its actually a buff for those that used to only chain-rat for sec in lowsec, and its a buff above 0.0 chain-ratting if you factor in extra payment for tags into the question. Also, the bounty from the rats offsets the cost of turning in the tags. Unless I'm grossly mistaken here, this is not a step backwards for sec raising as an activity in any way, this is something the CSM was adamant about while this was being hammered out. Everything Hans said is legit. The CSM had some good input to this feature when we presented it to them a few months back. "This one time, on patch day..." CCP Masterplan -á| -áTeam Five-0: Rewriting the law |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Two step wrote:How is it possible that someone so awesome as CCP Masterplan has so few likes? You people... Why would I give likes to people who appear to make raising sec status slower or more of a pita? Um, did you even read the blog? How do you get slower out of that? Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain unless the buffs to sec gains on that rats is dramatic. Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains. And you are really really helping those who gain sec status by running L4 missions. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:00:00 -
[63] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses.
Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status? Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Daedalus II
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
160
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:00:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Two step wrote:How is it possible that someone so awesome as CCP Masterplan has so few likes? You people... He obviously needs to both post more and do more low sec touching. Mmmm? Don't tempt me to start touching those places. I'm sure HR would have concerns. HR: "Here, point on this starmap where the bad man CCP Masterplan touched you"
Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: "All CONCORD->character standings will be wiped" has a possibly unintended consequence. Some people mine is solar systems where the only station to refine at is a CONCORD station. Having a high CONCORD standing reduces the refine cost. Now you are taking away the one and only way to reduce refine cost at these stations: Have a high sec status. Recommendation: Only wipe CONCORD standings if they are less than zero. Let those who put in the effort to get cheap refine keep the fruits of their effort.
As someone with a very high sec status I'd like this as well ;) |
Heribeck Weathers
Dred Nots
39
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ok you guys have one little thing wrong about chain sec ratting, you can get 3 sec buffs per system atm, meaning in 3 systems in 15min i can get NINE sec bumps.
You can curently get one from a rat in a belt, a rat in an anom, and a drone rat in an anom. go out and try it ill wait. Then tell me this isent a nerf to sec ratting. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
978
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:02:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Aye. But for those that want to rat up their sec they are looking to receive a slight Nerf in comparison to what they can do now with chair. Ratting.
Personally I haven't made it past shooting one rat before I decide -9 something isn't so bad in a while. We raised this exact same question when discussing this internally. It is my understanding that ratting in lowsec, collecting tags, and turning them in will be comparable to the sec gain that can be obtained by currently chain-ratting in 0.0 space, simply moved into lowsec. So its actually a buff for those that used to only chain-rat for sec in lowsec, and its a buff above 0.0 chain-ratting if you factor in extra payment for tags into the question. Also, the bounty from the rats offsets the cost of turning in the tags. Unless I'm grossly mistaken here, this is not a step backwards for sec raising as an activity in any way, this is something the CSM was adamant about while this was being hammered out. Everything Hans said is legit. The CSM had some good input to this feature when we presented it to them a few months back.
Sounds like a bunch of syncophantry to me!
Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses. Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status? Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Sable Moran wrote:'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes. That is not in question. What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status.
I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here.
How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system? Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:11:00 -
[69] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Sheena Tzash wrote:Sable Moran wrote:'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes. That is not in question. What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status. I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here. How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system? "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp." http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1925
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:13:00 -
[70] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:War Kitten wrote:you won't have to jump around quite so much.
Nerfing piracy by catering to lazy? Yet another question we were sure to raise internally while this was being discussed - and statistically, this movement was not creating the conflict and killmails that you would expect, (as it was often done in things like stealth bombers) so I am satisfied that this change is not a nerf to piracy at the end of the day. In fact, concentrating the activity in lowsec instead of spreading it between low and 0.0 space, combined with the chokepoints created by the tag turn-ins, actually serves as a buff to piracy in my opinion.
Also, people ratting for sec status are generally the pirates to start with, and they know what's up already. If they don't want a fight, you aren't going to force one out of them if they're competent.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
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Zircon Dasher
190
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote: Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain unless the buffs to sec gains on that rats is dramatic.
Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes
Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains.[/quote]
Of course the former group is larger since it also includes mission runners, explorers, and the like who are not shooting crosses for sec gains specifically! So while the change does not result in a net decrease in the net number of security gains in the game, it may still constitute a net decrease for those who are actively engaged in raising sec.
Not sure if trolling...... Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Karig'Ano Keikira
State War Academy Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
I can see reasoning behind this - more incentive for going into low-sec, more possible conflict in low sec, (slight) ISK sink from turning in tags. However, I am (slightly) sceptical about it turning into: want sec status? Ok, just pay a bit of ISK and *poof* you are no longer 'pirate' - at least now you have to work for it; removing consequence from low-sec actions further blurs the line between 'good pirates' and 'bad pirates' - if anything we need to widen that - EVE really needs more cause & consequence and risk & reward, not less of it. Ofc, I guess result depends on costs of turning in tags and spawn rates of new rats, so reserving judgement Note: I am not talking about high-sec gankers here, they are subject to totally different meta anyway |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
146
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses. Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status? Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W.
You are right, that is the way it works now, hence my rather high sec status too. I'm just questioning whether it will be so also after the change. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:17:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Sheena Tzash wrote:Sable Moran wrote:'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes. That is not in question. What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status. I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here. How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system? "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."
Like that :P
The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."
you know the bigger problem is a guy who can't enter highsec is gonna have a hell of a time awoxing anyone in highsec |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:22:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Sheena Tzash wrote:Sable Moran wrote:'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes. That is not in question. What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status. I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here. How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system? "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp." Like that :P The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such. Ooooo, I like that. A plot of sec status history over the lifetime of the character would do nicely. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp."
you know the bigger problem is a guy who can't enter highsec is gonna have a hell of a time awoxing anyone in highsec
Well thats what the tags are for... you turn um into low sec stations to give you access back into high. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:33:00 -
[78] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Edit: Another buff for those that gank and try and keep anot too low sec status: L4 missions. Right now they will give 1 or 2 boosts to sec status per mission, due to the 20 minute wait. But with the new 5 minute tick you will get 6 or more boosts per mission. The result is you could do one L4 mission, then one gank, and repeat. The mission returns sufficient sec status and ISK to cover your losses. Will this really affect level 4 missions? Will the missioning system use the same means to rise the sec status? Yes they do. My mission running alts all are +5 from sec gain from killing rats in missions. Im still +5 from before I moved into W. You are right, that is the way it works now, hence my rather high sec status too. I'm just questioning whether it will be so also after the change. I doubt they would change the system for low and null ratting, but leave the old system in place for high sec missions. Its easier to just change it for all rat killing in all space. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Sheena Tzash wrote:Sable Moran wrote:'cause enough trouble' can already be done, in that respect nothing changes. That is not in question. What is in question is for corps / fleets / players to identify the potential trouble makers due to a history of low sec status - otherwise they have the ability to play as 'wolves in sheeps clothing' with a nice and neutral appearing sec status. I'm sorry but I can't quite comprehend your train of thought here. How would this new system hide 'history of low sec status' any more (or less) than the existing system? "I want to AWOX a high sec industrial corp, but I got a low sec status. Ratting is too much trouble. Ill just wait for the expansion, buy tags and presto! A clean history that will get me right into that corp." Like that :P The idea is that at least with some audit / history of sec status change you could at least spot a pattern of 'repeat offenders' and treat them as such.
Ahhaa.. So you're suggesting a new feature? Like the employment history but for the sec status?. Fair enough. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
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CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
1105
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:37:00 -
[80] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:CCP Masterplan wrote: Removing chain ratting will increase sec gain if you are consistently making less than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes Removing chain ratting will slow down sec gain if you are consistently making more than 3 kills in 3 different systems every 15 minutes
Based on the stats we have, the number of people in the former group is significantly larger than the number in the second group, and overall this won't be a net nerf to the amount of security status gains.
Of course the former group is larger since it also includes mission runners, explorers, and the like who are not shooting crosses for sec gains specifically! So while the change does not result in a net decrease in the net number of security gains in the game, it may still constitute a net decrease for those who are actively engaged in raising sec. Not sure if trolling...... When I ran those numbers, I was only looking at people with a negative sec status, for exactly that reason "This one time, on patch day..." CCP Masterplan -á| -áTeam Five-0: Rewriting the law |
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rei natuski
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:38:00 -
[81] - Quote
Why add new tags, when the current tags are not used ?
for example dread guristas tag or officer tags are useless... |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
4025
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:38:00 -
[82] - Quote
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:I can see reasoning behind this - more incentive for going into low-sec, more possible conflict in low sec, (slight) ISK sink from turning in tags. However, I am (slightly) sceptical about it turning into: want sec status? Ok, just pay a bit of ISK and *poof* you are no longer 'pirate' - at least now you have to work for it; removing consequence from low-sec actions further blurs the line between 'good pirates' and 'bad pirates' - if anything we need to widen that - EVE really needs more cause & consequence and risk & reward, not less of it. Ofc, I guess result depends on costs of turning in tags and spawn rates of new rats, so reserving judgement Note: I am not talking about high-sec gankers here, they are subject to totally different meta anyway
EvilWeaselSA wrote:you know the bigger problem is a guy who can't enter highsec is gonna have a hell of a time awoxing anyone in highsec
Both of these posts speak to why I believe so strongly in a system for rapid security status gain. CCP (Masterplan in particular) spent an entire year giving us a knockout system for Crime and Punishment, and yet it goes underutilized because criminals aren't committing frequent enough crime in high sec to begin with. Why? Because we can't operate there! What difference does it make if there's suspect flagging, criminal flagging, etc, if no one who is prone to committing those crimes ventures frequently into highsec space. I'd much prefer a system where more crime is committed in highsec, and thus more opportunity for player-driven enforcement (now possible through crimewatch) than one where the criminals stay in criminal land, and the carebears stay in carebear land, and never the twain shall meet.
Next stop on the train to awesome - separating Factional Navy enforcement of security status and moving them to standings-based enforcement, and allowing a combination of players and CONCORD to work together as the strong arm of the law. I hope this is something that CSM8 will pick up and run with, its the last piece of the puzzle in setting up a robust, easy-to-understand justice system for all of New Eden. Council of Planetary Management Delegate / Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.-á |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
643
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:40:00 -
[83] - Quote
rei natuski wrote:Why add new tags, when the current tags are not used ?
for example dread guristas tag or officer tags are useless... because of my stack of literally thousands of them is fairly small compared to the stacks some other people have
sec status would cost pennies |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1801
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 16:44:00 -
[84] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:rei natuski wrote:Why add new tags, when the current tags are not used ?
for example dread guristas tag or officer tags are useless... because of my stack of literally thousands of them is fairly small compared to the stacks some other people have sec status would cost pennies True. CCP would have to do an auto-buyback of the old tags. May just be easier to add new ones. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
1105
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:47:00 -
[85] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:rei natuski wrote:Why add new tags, when the current tags are not used ?
for example dread guristas tag or officer tags are useless... because of my stack of literally thousands of them is fairly small compared to the stacks some other people have sec status would cost pennies True. CCP would have to do an auto-buyback of the old tags. May just be easier to add new ones. Yes, pretty much this. Trying to balance anything with the enormous numbers of existing tags out there (and the unbalanced droprates across the various types) would have been impossible "This one time, on patch day..." CCP Masterplan -á| -áTeam Five-0: Rewriting the law |
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Orbius Prime
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.05.02 16:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
all i got from this is: if you lose sec status you'll have to open your wallet... as ratting/anoms will take you x times longer...
but +1 for adding an isk sink, well played |
Kithran
54
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Posted - 2013.05.02 17:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
Currently as sec status is also standings it has other effects - namely refine taxes and broker fees.
Are there going to be any methods introduced with Odyssey that will allow people to raise these now reset to 0 standings? |
Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
68
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Posted - 2013.05.02 17:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Wow. There is alot they could do with this mechanic in the future. I'm thinking that possibly tags could be turned in to enemy factions for an alternative standings boost. Standings boosts could be relative to the degree to which standings are set negative to that faction. IOW turning in Serpentis tags to the Minmatar wouldn't be possible, while Angel Cartel tags would give you the highest boost.
I'm really wishing too that there was a way to use NPC faction shares, too. Like, if you got your Security standing up to +10.0 (or above in future scenarios) you could get the ability to slowly accumulate shares, or turn in LP for shares. Then those shares could be redeemed at Empire Ihubs to let you lease that Empire's property temporarily. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3345
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 17:05:00 -
[89] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I'd much prefer a system where more crime is committed in highsec, and thus more opportunity for player-driven enforcement (now possible through crimewatch) than one where the criminals stay in criminal land, and the carebears stay in carebear land, and never the twain shall meet.
Next stop on the train to awesome - separating Factional Navy enforcement of security status and moving them to standings-based enforcement, and allowing a combination of players and CONCORD to work together as the strong arm of the law. I hope this is something that CSM8 will pick up and run with, its the last piece of the puzzle in setting up a robust, easy-to-understand justice system for all of New Eden.
If more crime is happening in hisec, what happens to lowsec? Wouldn't you want to add more ways to PvE in lowsec to encourage people to leave the safety of highsec, so more crime happens in lowsec?
Why do you want to draw people out of lowsec?
I appreciate the idea of having faction navies respond based on standings, but how do people gain low standings with faction navies? Is CCP planning to add faction standings losses to crimes committed in faction space? Or is this just another ganking buff meaning that faction police will only attack mission runners? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
687
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 17:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:rei natuski wrote:Why add new tags, when the current tags are not used ?
for example dread guristas tag or officer tags are useless... because of my stack of literally thousands of them is fairly small compared to the stacks some other people have sec status would cost pennies True. CCP would have to do an auto-buyback of the old tags. May just be easier to add new ones. Yes, pretty much this. Trying to balance anything with the enormous numbers of existing tags out there (and the unbalanced droprates across the various types) would have been impossible
So i've been stockpiling them for nothing...
fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff |
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