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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.05.05 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently I fly Minmatar for PvE and use mostly Arty, but I hate the long refire and not really feeling the aesthetics. I am more of a gun person than a missile or drone person.
Got it in my mind that I'd like to fly railboats, but everyone swears up and down they're horrible.
My support skills are excellent, and I'm willing to take a couple months and skillup rails to t2 to make them shine. Is this worth it?
Also secondary question, which race is better for rails, Caldari or Gallente?
As I said I'm not much of a drone/missile person, please don't suggest a Drake or Raven. Thinking more like Ferox, Rokh, Rail Mega, Moa (eww ugly), rail Thorax, etc.
I would then, ostensibly, continue with rails for PvP and fleet work.
Please advise, thanks. |
Illiar D'Anaari
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.05.05 13:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
I personally feel that rails are quite alright. The biggest issue I have with them is the fitting requirement of T2 large guns (the 425), but the dps, considering the range, is quite alright. I use CN Antimatter, CN Uranium and CN Lead for missions with 2 TC II and that give enough options to always be in optimal (lead+ double optimal scripts gives me optimal just slightly beyond my targeting range)
I would advise against going Caldari though, at least for pve. Both the Ferox and the Rohk have tank+range as bonus, which doesn't work as well for missions as the damage+tank of the Brutix and Hyperion, or the damage+tracking of the Mega.
I can't speak on the pvp side of rails, as I have no experience on that. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
126
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Posted - 2013.05.05 14:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rails are fine it's just the medium ones that are a bit of a joke |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
154
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Posted - 2013.05.05 16:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Small railguns can be great for kiting frigates or destroyers, or for sniper Cormorants. Large railguns are awesome on the dedicated sniper platforms, the Rokh and the Naga (the Rokh even has a battleship doctrine built around large rails). Medium railguns are still less useful, except perhaps on boats like the Thorax that use them for kiting. Cruisers and battlecruisers almost always seem to benefit more from blasters... "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
74
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Posted - 2013.05.05 17:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
For Sniping Railguns are fantastic.
For Missions, the damage (on paper) is decent but the damage application (in reality) is F'ING terrible. Even with (3) TE IIs, MR-706 (6% Tracking), (1) Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Rig, on a ship with Tracking bonus like the Megathron and using 350 IIs instead of 425s the Tracking is an abysmal 0.03. Even with Javelin (+25% Tracking bonus) you're only getting up to 0.037.
You'd better hope that whatever compliment of Drones you have along don't die before they kill everything that gets too close because your Rails sure as hell aren't gonna scratch the paint of enemy ships up close. Even worse are the Scram Frigs, if you don't have the Drones to kill them and can't tank until someone shows up to help you, might as well say your goodbyes to your beloved ship.
I'd rather use Missiles for Missions with low SP in the Missile Launcher Operation skill tree than Rails as the damage application (not the OMGBBQPWN-EFT paper DPS) can be superior if rigged correctly. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
Michus Danether
Aristotle Enterprises
25
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Posted - 2013.05.05 17:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have a Dominix I use for missions now and then, it puts out something in the area of 1000 dps with t2 sentries and t2 425mm railguns. I find the perfect engagement range around 25-40km with antimatter and gardes.
I find it great.
The 425mms have enough tracking even with regular antimatter to pound battleships at 20km+ and the gardes I use to pick off frigs and cruisers before they get into range, then switch the gardes to whatever battleship is in their optimal range.
The reason I use a dominix instead of a megathron is for the extra drone space, with the domi I can put in a flight of heavies and lots of lights so I can take care of battleships that get within 10km or tackling frigates who get past the garde one-volley flak.
The only mission I've ever had trouble with was against sensor dampening serpentis(10+ of them), but everyone has trouble with that mission.
If I wanted to blow tech 2 ammo, blasters with null would work just as well, but it would keep me from engaging sniping battleships (70-80+km) which I normally deal with by just putting iron into the 425mms which is enough DPS to kill them.
(it's a shield tanked domi too btw) |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
196
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Posted - 2013.05.05 19:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rails get a bad rap, I think, because they don't really stand out compared to the other long range platforms, particularly in PVE, but they aren't really bad at anything. Arty has more alpha and somewhat selectable damage, missiles have selectable and consistent damage, Beams have (oddly) better tracking, ammo use, and..well, tachs.
Rails, though, have a few often-overlooked things going for them:
First, they only seem tight on fitting because Gallente ships themselves have very tight fitting. In reality, rails use far less power grid compared to the other turrets. For example, the base power grid on T2 Tachs is 4125 (soon to be 3712), and 3575 on T2 1400's, but only 2310 on T2 425's. They do use the most CPU, but CPU is easier to free up than power grid.
Second, 425's have the highest rate of fire of the three, which means they have the least wasted damage. Alpha is nice in situations where it's useful, but you can waste a LOT of dps with it where it's not needed.
Third, though they have a fixed damage type, they're almost always hitting a primary or secondary resist hole on something. In pvp, except on T2 hulls with bonuses to them, kinetic and thermal are usually the weaker resists on omni tanked ships. In pve, most rats have kinetic or thermal as either their primary or secondary resist, and 2/5 even have kin/th primary/secondary weaknesses. So you can use them on just about anything fairly well.
Fourth, though they do use cap, it's nowhere near what lasers use. Current Tachs use about 3.5x the cap of 425's, and post-patch they'll use 2.7x.
So what you end up with is a simple, effective, easy-to-use turret. You don't have to worry about waiting on them to cycle or managing an enormous amount of cap use, you can apply good damage at just about any range, and you can fit them on just about any ship, even those that simply have extra un-bonused turret slots. thhief ghabmoef |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
805
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Posted - 2013.05.05 19:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Medium railguns are useless because there are battlecruisers that do 1k dps at 20km while moving faster than some cruisers.
Great balance work.
(Small rails are just about the best weapon system though) BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2687
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Posted - 2013.05.05 21:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Large rails on tracking bonused hulls are pretty damn nice as well.
Medium LR weapons are all in a hard place atm, arties have their alpha and niche uses like PVE HMLs, but that doesn't make them much better than medium rails and beams.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1065
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Posted - 2013.05.05 21:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rails suck, and medium ones sucking far more than the rest do not make the rest look any better.
If you use arty for pve, rails may not feel so bad though...
Fit some ACs, and you'll never want to see another rail, or arty (at least in pve) again. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
130
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Posted - 2013.05.05 22:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
You need a hull with falloff bonus to make ACs shine in PVE though
Maelstrom is a good ship but AC fit, good god the range is terrible. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1066
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 23:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:You need a hull with falloff bonus to make ACs shine in PVE though
Maelstrom is a good ship but AC fit, good god the range is terrible.
50km falloff isn't that bad. Fit a mwd. The nature of falloff curve is such that at 50% falloff, you're still doing 80% dps, at 100% falloff, 50% dps. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 23:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
yeah so you're doing 80% of your dps at like 40km >.> |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1066
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Posted - 2013.05.05 23:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tracking curve is actually one and the same as falloff. You lose a lot of dps from tracking on these arties and rails. Ppl never think about how well they hit at 30km... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Cage Man
200
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Posted - 2013.05.06 00:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: Currently I fly Minmatar for PvE and use mostly Arty, but I hate the long refire and not really feeling the aesthetics..
Why you using arty? what ship you using. I used ac's in maelstrom and now in a mach and have no problems.
I find rails work well in the megathron line up. Domi is a drone boat and the Rokh was painful with them.
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2013.05.06 02:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: First, they only seem tight on fitting because Gallente ships themselves have very tight fitting. In reality, rails use far less power grid compared to the other turrets. For example, the base power grid on T2 Tachs is 4125 (soon to be 3712), and 3575 on T2 1400's, but only 2310 on T2 425's. They do use the most CPU, but CPU is easier to free up than power grid.
If you armour tank, sure. Shield tanking ships tend to be tight on CPU (and to use CPU intensive weapons - I don't think the empire ship designers are actually very bright).
|
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 09:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rails do get perhaps an unfair reputation even for PVP. They are a a mixed bunch and you will always need to be mindful of tracking.
Small rails
Generally I would say if you think your fit requires dropping to electron blasters then you should be using 75mm rails. Better fittings and DPS projection they are key to the strength of the 400mm plate Tristan and Algos builds.
125mm rails are excellent on Merlins and the Incursus giving solid DPS at flexible ranges.
150mm Scram range brawling comet is my go too FW complex ship.
150mm rails on a Daredevil with faction web is as close to easy PVP as it gets.
Medium rails
Dual 150mm rails again I feel these are viable compared to any fit that requires Electron blasters (have even lower powergrid) and lacks the space for two webs (for range control) or is using them as a secondary weapon system such as heavily Armour tanked Vexor or Myrm. Before you jump to fitting autos on a Myrm try looking at the DPS projection of these rails with a 9km optimal and able to project DPS through long point range.
200mm rails viable on a kiting Thorax not much else.
250mm rails, hard to fit for not much gain. A full rack on a combat BC is still an inferior choice to an attack battlecruiser with large blasters.
Large Rails
Meh
Dual 250mm - fitting advantage over Electron Blaster cannons disappears and Null Electron Blaster cannons project DPS through short/long point range with better tracking.
350mm rails used to be used for fitting advantages over 425's but due to balance changes ships that want to fit 425s generally can.
425mm rails. An acceptable fleet /sniper weapon. Solid choice for kin/therm weak PVE enemies |
feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
223
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Posted - 2013.05.06 10:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Small rails can be a good choice for level 1s and 2s.
I would consider medium rails purely as a stepping stone to large rails.
Once you get large rails they are fine as a long range weapon system, although personally I think they only really shine on the range-bonused Rokh hull. (and the Naga ofc, but Nagas and missions often don't mix well..)
A 4 x Magstab Rokh with a TE and a TC and using faction antimatter will be doing around 645dps at 70km optimal + 49km falloff. If you fit a rail Rokh with a Micro Jump Drive you suddenly have a ship that both has a solid tank and can also relocate to a range that perfectly suits it within a matter of seconds.
Plug in a couple of +5% damage implants and you've got yourself a solid PVE ship.
It will never be as efficient as a ship that relies heavily on pure gank for its tank like the Mach, but it's no slouch either.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
138
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
You'd want gallente for rail pve.
Several gun boats offer nice bonuses and the drones for them are just small crap killers. With good tracking if motivated you can avoid the drone mess if lucky with some straight up frigate blapping ( if inclined to use large guns for that anyway).
I tried rohh pve, just not all that great. With the soon to be lost 1% resist loss it is even less appealing. I am caldari Bs 5. And the extra 5% was a nice bene. Hate golem so now all that bs 5 gets me is I can fly widows tbh. And after you fly a naga and get damage bonuses you kind of find it hard to come back to rokh. Not chipping paint is kind of nice. Rokh to me at this is just the meatier ship that lives longer than naga in meat grinder ops for pvp. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Do people not know how to manually fly their ships anymore?
Has everyone got so used to TE's and a few other ships being unbalanced letting them use short range weapons like AC's at good ranges that they've forgotten? Or is it everyone was told heavy missiles were easy mode for PVE that they never learnt to use a turret boat properly?
Yes, rails do have somewhat bad tracking, but it's pretty easy to mitigate that effect if you fly manually and manage your transversal, so I don't understand why everyone is saying they are terribad and can't hit anything.
Of course, the real question is whether they are worth the effort or not... |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1069
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Posted - 2013.05.06 11:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Do people not know how to manually fly their ships anymore?
Has everyone got so used to TE's and a few other ships being unbalanced letting them use short range weapons like AC's at good ranges that they've forgotten? Or is it everyone was told heavy missiles were easy mode for PVE that they never learnt to use a turret boat properly?
Yes, rails do have somewhat bad tracking, but it's pretty easy to mitigate that effect if you fly manually and manage your transversal, so I don't understand why everyone is saying they are terribad and can't hit anything.
Of course, the real question is whether they are worth the effort or not...
So you'll manually fly to use rails to achieve... what? Low dps? Where's the reward for all your hard work? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
262
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Posted - 2013.05.06 13:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:So you'll manually fly to use rails to achieve... what? Low dps? Where's the reward for all your hard work?
I did say the real question was whether they were worth the effort or not
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Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
33
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Posted - 2013.05.06 14:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: Currently I fly Minmatar for PvE and use mostly Arty, but I hate the long refire and not really feeling the aesthetics. I am more of a gun person than a missile or drone person.
Got it in my mind that I'd like to fly railboats, but everyone swears up and down they're horrible.
My support skills are excellent, and I'm willing to take a couple months and skillup rails to t2 to make them shine. Is this worth it?
Also secondary question, which race is better for rails, Caldari or Gallente?
As I said I'm not much of a drone/missile person, please don't suggest a Drake or Raven. Thinking more like Ferox, Rokh, Rail Mega, Moa (eww ugly), rail Thorax, etc.
I would then, ostensibly, continue with rails for PvP and fleet work.
Please advise, thanks.
Yes, they are really that bad. I've tried the Eagle, Astarte and the Proteus with 250mm RGs they are all quite horrid in tracking. The Rokh I guess would come closest to any reason for a 425mm, for sniping in fleets. Having said that, you're better off with Blasters fitted with Null if you're doing PVE. It is sad that Medium RGs continue to be rather horrid. |
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
442
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Posted - 2013.05.06 21:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
med rails really need some buffs. large rails are fine. |
Snyderm
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rails in general aren't bad, but like other people are saying the medium variety sucks. 200mm and 250mm railguns require too much CPU, and the high DPS ammo doesn't have anywhere near enough range to be viable.
This is made worse by the fact that the hulls that use medium hybrids for primary DPS are the worst hulls in the game. Thorax, Brutix, Astarte, Ferox, Diemost, Eagle, etc are quite bad.
Although I kinda like the Moa. The DPS and Tank bonus combo is pretty good. Almost enough to make up for the bad weapon system.
I wish CCP hadn't dropped the ball with the new brutix. I had hopes they would make the hull into something useful. Not to be. |
Hesod Adee
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.05.08 23:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:For Sniping Railguns are fantastic.
For Missions, the damage (on paper) is decent but the damage application (in reality) is F'ING terrible. Even with (3) TE IIs, MR-706 (6% Tracking), (1) Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Rig, on a ship with Tracking bonus like the Megathron and using 350 IIs instead of 425s the Tracking is an abysmal 0.03. Even with Javelin (+25% Tracking bonus) you're only getting up to 0.037.
You'd better hope that whatever compliment of Drones you have along don't die before they kill everything that gets too close because your Rails sure as hell aren't gonna scratch the paint of enemy ships up close. Even worse are the Scram Frigs, if you don't have the Drones to kill them and can't tank until someone shows up to help you, might as well say your goodbyes to your beloved ship.
I'd rather use Missiles for Missions with low SP in the Missile Launcher Operation skill tree than Rails as the damage application (not the OMGBBQPWN-EFT paper DPS) can be superior if rigged correctly. The tracking disadvantage can be negated in PvE. I find that my Hyperion with an afterburner is faster than everything of cruiser size or bigger. Using keep at range causes the NPCs to lose most of their angular velocity as they do their best to get into the range they want to fight at.
Only frigates are a problem, and I have drones for them. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
138
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Posted - 2013.05.09 08:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote: I did say the real question was whether they were worth the effort or not
thats really a player taste. You'd have to see for yourself.
Looking at one of the more dominant hybrid boats, vindi, you get main 2 flavors and it breaks down to how you like thier tradeoffs.
You have blaster vindi. Puts out some pain but you need to close to use it. Some people like this approach, others don't
You have rail vindi. Get you less dps but generally its land in the room and start shooting up rats almost right away.
Either way viable. Me if I was to buy a this example vindi I'd go rails. I had my loads of fun hunting down targets in a torp golem to apply max pain. It was so much fun I sold it. But thats just my personal preference, I like to go long generally. A blaster phile can chime in about why SR is better. All in what you like end of the day. |
Agolon
Insight Limited
0
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Posted - 2013.05.09 13:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Do people not know how to manually fly their ships anymore?
Has everyone got so used to TE's and a few other ships being unbalanced letting them use short range weapons like AC's at good ranges that they've forgotten? Or is it everyone was told heavy missiles were easy mode for PVE that they never learnt to use a turret boat properly?
Yes, rails do have somewhat bad tracking, but it's pretty easy to mitigate that effect if you fly manually and manage your transversal, so I don't understand why everyone is saying they are terribad and can't hit anything.
Of course, the real question is whether they are worth the effort or not...
I was told to the best way to fly manually is to go to view target and set up you your camera to a strait ahead view (on your target's ship) and keep double click to keep your transversal very low??? I'm just starting to learn Laser's right now and have no experance with gun's. So was wondering if that's the best way or if there's a better one ? Without watching a tiny # all the time? |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
150
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Agolon wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Do people not know how to manually fly their ships anymore?
Has everyone got so used to TE's and a few other ships being unbalanced letting them use short range weapons like AC's at good ranges that they've forgotten? Or is it everyone was told heavy missiles were easy mode for PVE that they never learnt to use a turret boat properly?
Yes, rails do have somewhat bad tracking, but it's pretty easy to mitigate that effect if you fly manually and manage your transversal, so I don't understand why everyone is saying they are terribad and can't hit anything.
Of course, the real question is whether they are worth the effort or not... I was told to the best way to fly manually is to go to view target and set up you your camera to a strait ahead view (on your target's ship) and keep double click to keep your transversal very low??? I'm just starting to learn Laser's right now and have no experance with gun's. So was wondering if that's the best way or if there's a better one ? Without watching a tiny # all the time?
Yup that's how you minimise transversal, lasers are turrets and behave in the same way
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1079
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:med rails really need some buffs. large rails are fine.
Small rails are fine. Large rails are not. Med rails are beyond helping and should just be removed... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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