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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 18:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The sale takes place in the UK even when on the internet and if something happens like what happened last year to several high profile games in the future we have the right to demand our money back. EA could be in for some bother.
Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them?
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:These kinds of laws are just silly on all sorts of levels. Define "freeze" for one. Sounds easy, but, there's so many different reasons for "freeze"...driver conflict, overheating, old code, bad API calls... Now, by freeze, do they just mean the game locking up, or whole system? How do I prove, as a consumer, the game code itself locked? How can I verify that the network path between myself and the servers are perfectly fine, and it's not ISP shenanigans (Trust me, no ISP in the world is going to open themselves to that legal problem).
My point exactly, not mastering the english language enough, but this was my point :). Also, prove all this from a legal point of view.
000Hunter000 wrote: National laws> Eve Eula
How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please. |
Kirjava
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4711
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote:
How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.
Iceland is applying to join a Trade Block *** supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies. Consumer rights must be respeced in the member states with regards to each other within the trade block. Iceland would be on the hook for its corporate entities within the EU, as would every other state be on the hook for customers of its corporations in other member states. The EU also acts as a trade block in the WTO, arguable being the dominant power in global regulation and standards.
The EU is about the size of the combined USA and Canada, and the UK is the second or third most powerful state in the EU depending on your perspective on France.
Theoretically that's how, its speculation and the UK has a veto on Icelandic membership.
Also I am not in favour of the UK doing this, but it has done before and it will if it thinks it needs to.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Cardinal Kirjava - Redeclaring the Crusade in the name of the Goddess since 2012. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ |
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:Mina Kizen wrote:
How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.
Iceland is applying to join a Trade Block *** supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies. Consumer rights must be respeced in the member states with regards to each other within the trade block. Iceland would be on the hook for its corporate entities within the EU, as would every other state be on the hook for customers of its corporations in other member states. The EU also acts as a trade block in the WTO, arguable being the dominant power in global regulation and standards. The EU is about the size of the combined USA and Canada, and the UK is the second or third most powerful state in the EU depending on your perspective on France. Theoretically that's how, its speculation and the UK has a veto on Icelandic membership. Also I am not in favour of the UK doing this, but it has done before and it will if it thinks it needs to.
I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please? |
Kirjava
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4722
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote: I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please?
Its ridiculously complicated, and again this is all speculation.
I don't think there's a single establishing trade body, but the most current treaty is the Lisbon Treaty of 2007. The Eu was founded by the Treaty of Rome in 1957.
Sorry about the language earlier, was in a rush to be as detailed as I could to get to the core point.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Cardinal Kirjava - Redeclaring the Crusade in the name of the Goddess since 2012. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ |
Othran
Route One
481
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote: I see, thank you for enlightening me on this. Can you (or anyone savvy enough) provide a link to this "supranational confederation of European Capitalist democracies" trade agreement, please?
Its called the "Euro", is run in Gemany's economic interests and that's why 70% of under 25 year-old's in Spain/Greece are never going to have a job in their own country.
Oh and the "president" of the EU/Euro group is a Portuguese Maoist (Barroso).
Pretty much all you need to know about the EU |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
606
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
Missive Ernaga wrote:Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.
There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. It's not like CCP advertises that their servers will be on 23/7 all day every day.
You've never dealt with lawyers have you? The EULA will mean nothing to them....
The single biggest danger to EVE is the proliferation of ALTS! Kill an alt today!
Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
Othran wrote: stuff :) that's why 70% of under 25 year-old people in Spain/Greece are never going to scroll up to see the whole post
I'm under 21 and I wanted to learn more, thanks for the clarification ^^ BTW, edited your quote
Now I have a vaguely general idea of the stuff OP posted, thanks everyone for contributing, |
Dalmont Delantee
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:32:00 -
[68] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:In the Queens speech today there was an announcement of a bill to protect consumers of digital goods and services, in the same way as physical goods rolling them into the same law. As this effects Eve in many respects, I think this is something the British player base would be interested to see CCP's position on. Guardian wrote:GÇó An updating of the law to give greater protection to consumers who download films, music and games GÇô a -ú1bn industry. The bill will make clear that a consumer must receive a refund if an online game freezes or if a film stream is unwatchable even if the broadband connection is fine. What with lag being endemic to Eve and other games, but thankfully its effects reduced by such as Time Dilation, what would fall under the purview of this law is uncertain. However to speculate, node crashes and boot.ini would be under such a bill. As would Error 37 and Simcity, but thats another story. Article is here. Posted in General Discussion as it is Discussion of an Eve related article and its consequences.
Absolute bollocks. |
Hessian Arcturus
S.W.O.R.D. Navy
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP aren't a British company...Therefore are not bound by the same laws of such... It's human nature to want to explore. To find your line and go beyond it. The only limit, is the one you set yourself. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6213
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote:
Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them?
You sold it to a UK citizen in the UK. The sale was in the uk and as such uk consumer laws apply.
Private sales however are not protected. |
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Avalon Champion
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
Internet Lawyers, dont you just love them......
Seriously, half the problems with Disconnects etc are the ISP, I know my mums area she gets 117KB/s, on boardband, BT fob her off with the usual BS about split bandwidth, etc, the reality is its thier Infrastructure thats the problem.
I've tried playing eve when there and at times its unplayable, this isnt a fault of EVE, CCP or anyone but BT.
Therefore why would I sue CCP for a problem that is out of thier control.
In a court of law I suspect that CCP would simply pull up the network traffic for the UK, and show that a limited number of people were affected at the time or that it was an ISP provider issue and thus they would not be liable, and they have produced best endeavours to ensure a fit for purpose solution.
If it appears that it was down to a switch issue at the data center that would be a different issue.
In terms of compensation they would only really be asked to recompense you for 'lost' time.
So it is really worth hiring a lawyer and Barrister that will cost a fortun to recover -ú100-200, not to mention the pressure it would put on CCP to keep reserves thus preventing development of new features.
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Dalmont Delantee
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
The reason why thats absolute bollocks is depending on who the law is written, what test cases its used against.
You can't make any comment on anything from the Guardian as they are nearly as moronic as the Sun.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4115
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
The only thing the world needs less than more unenforceable laws on the books is more wanna be internet lawyers discussing them. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote: How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.
Tranquillity is hosted in London, UK. If a company from abroad runs servers in the UK and they are committing actions against UK law, they could just pull the plug on TQ.
Not will this will happen. Ever. The internet lawyers in this thread are hilarious.
What this bill helps with is rather specific: When people have issues accessing digital content that has been purchased.
Take for example a one time 'rental' of a film. The server lags out / internet congestion / your broadband does - I've seen loads of people be locked out of watching the film at this point, or only being allowed to continue watching it from where the server thinks the person has been up to. That's nonsense and it's what part of this bill sets out to tackle.
The SLA is an entirely different matter. |
cpu939
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
basically everyone has agreed to use iceland law in a contract |
Andrea Griffin
380
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2472
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 19:56:00 -
[77] - Quote
A lot of bluster and blather in here.
But let's be realistic.
Without knowing the letter of the law, I can take a guess as to the spirit of it. It's not there to punish games for having lag and only in America with its glut of lawyers and entitled, litigious population would that happen. I'd suggest it's for things like streaming media that has more down time than up time. Or an FTP that you paid for but can never access.
The morons that do try to sue over intermittent lag will be laughed out of court and the plaintiff will be on the hook for a bundle of legal bills.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:00:00 -
[78] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.
It means that anything that's being run in the UK is subject to UK law. Nothing more.
If it was illegal to distribute images of bronies in the UK (and my god, it should be) then TQ wouldn't be able to host and distribute images of a bronies as a result. |
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
rofflesausage wrote: Tranquillity is hosted in London, UK. If a company FROM ABROAD runs servers in the UK it means a FOREIGN company runs some servers in the UK, no less, no morel
Andrea Griffin wrote:Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation. This was my question, only couple of the several dozens visitors of this thread answered it. You were not among them, rofflesausage. sorry.
rofflesausage wrote:What this bill helps with is rather specific: When people have issues accessing digital content that has been purchased.{/quote]Purchased from where? How does your UK LOCAL/NATIONAL law affects another country?
[quote=rofflesausageTake for example a one time 'rental' of a film. I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game, Sorry if I derailed your discussion. |
Kirjava
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4731
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation. Iceland's relationship with the EU is akin to Puerto Rico's relationship with the USA at this point in time. Its complicated, they are associated with the legal infrastructure from the EU in Brussels through the European Free Trade Area, and are applying for membership status (statehood) to get the Euro currency to replace the Icelandic Krona (ISK) which nearly collapsed in 2008 from the ongoing financial crisis.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Cardinal Kirjava - Redeclaring the Crusade in the name of the Goddess since 2012. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ |
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baltec1
Bat Country
6214
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Please excuse my ignorance of such things, but does CCP being in Iceland mean that it has to abide by the laws made in the UK? I thought Iceland was an independent nation.
Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
529
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:06:00 -
[82] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:Missive Ernaga wrote:Read the EULA. You subscribe for the ability to play the game during the time CCP has the servers online and functioning.
There is nothing in the EULA that stipulates minimum uptime. This will likely trump the EULA in the courts, doubly so as the servers are based out of London. The Bill is intended to increase consumer protection by nullifying such anti consumer practices.
I'd like to see the bill before we even try to argue it and claim what it trumphs. We miss you Saede. |
Kirjava
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4731
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:07:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote:I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game, Sorry if I derailed your discussion. Not a problem it does have things to do with games though, Simcity was launched and was barely playable with no possibility of refunds, its a law primarily aimed at that but which could be applied to any MMORPG which includes Eve.
And Internet lawyers, yea this is all speculation as we said many, many times throughout.
Kind of curious, where are you from?
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Cardinal Kirjava - Redeclaring the Crusade in the name of the Goddess since 2012. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ |
Adunh Slavy
750
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:10:00 -
[84] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:In the Queens speech today ...
Guess the Queen tried SimCity 2013 too. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
379
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:11:00 -
[85] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote:baltec1 wrote:The sale takes place in the UK even when on the internet and if something happens like what happened last year to several high profile games in the future we have the right to demand our money back. EA could be in for some bother. Really, if you make a payment directly to CCP (Iceland) or Paypal (US) or whatever (there are companies in over 200 countries), "The sale takes place in the UK" ? How does the UK projects their legal power over them? Lady Areola Fappington wrote:These kinds of laws are just silly on all sorts of levels. Define "freeze" for one. Sounds easy, but, there's so many different reasons for "freeze"...driver conflict, overheating, old code, bad API calls... Now, by freeze, do they just mean the game locking up, or whole system? How do I prove, as a consumer, the game code itself locked? How can I verify that the network path between myself and the servers are perfectly fine, and it's not ISP shenanigans (Trust me, no ISP in the world is going to open themselves to that legal problem). My point exactly, not mastering the english language enough, but this was my point :). Also, prove all this from a legal perspective. 000Hunter000 wrote: National laws> Eve Eula
How do you think the UK can enforce their national law on CCP(Iceland based company)? Do elaborate please.
IANAL but the way it works in the states is that place of sale is considered to be where the consumer is. Technically in most states you are suppose to pay sales tax for foreign goods and services. If the website or service does not do this, you as a consumer are supposed to report it on your state taxes (though most people I'm sure do not) which is why they are passing internet sales tax laws which a part of me wonders if EVE will get applied to.
I think its suppose to apply to products shipped to your state, but I have a feeling states will want to get their hands on Steam sales and MMO profits if at all possible.
Still that really doesn't have anything to do with the UK, but at least here it is considered that the place of sale takes place in the buyer's home state and not in the country where the service originated.
So I think the same thing can apply to the UK.
IANAL but here in the states (in places where the laws are nice for lawsuits... say Texas) you can drag any company into small claims court for cases under thousands of dollars (say for a couple of hundred). It has been known that people will bring a case against a large company who doesn't bother sending a lawyer in response, but the judge will award damages towards the plantiff, but at that point it is rather a crap shoot whether or not the company will get around to paying you. Some companies actually appeal just for spite and others give in since it doesnt' matter.
If you google "win small claims court against at&t" you get information about what I know to be about small claims against the phone giant att. People do win those on occasion.
I am not a lawyer and this was not legal advice.
[edit]
Almost forgot to reply to your last statement. Governments force foreign businesses to do what they want all the time. France has drug Google to court quite a bit and forces Ebay to remove swastikas from their sales. UK also has brought Google to court. Eventually if the business wants to do business in a country they have to play ball. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2722
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Any word on car manufacturers giving refunds if the vehicle can't reach the advertised speed - regardless of traffic conditions?
C'mon get with the spirit of things. Everybody has a right to be a big fat spoiled baby and nitpick every little thing about everything.
I am certain that every loss will be all about this, in Metagaming.. uh... Eve Online.
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Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:18:00 -
[87] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:Not a problem it does have things to do with games though Nothing new, it seems every particular issue a brit encounters should apply to ALL games from ALL over the Earth [/quote]
Kirjava wrote:Simcity was launched and was barely playable with no possibility of refunds, its a law primarily aimed at that but which could be applied to any MMORPG which includes Eve. based on my previous comment on this post, does generalization seems reasonable to you?
Kirjava wrote:Kind of curious, where are you from? Irrelevant :) why so curious though? |
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hessian Arcturus wrote:CCP aren't a British company, but it could be interesting to see what happens in regards to enforcing that... Given the non-specific language of the New Zealand Consumer Guarantees Act, I have to wonder why other countries also didn't use non-specific language as well. It would certainly save them having to enact new consumer law every time that a new thing came along instead of merely updating the definitions of what constitutes Goods and Services.
Quote:The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
basically everyone has agreed to use iceland law in a contract
Not everyone. The New Zealand Consumer Guarantees Act has a section that specifically deals with that, basically stating that it cannot be contracted out of. |
Mina Kizen
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:21:00 -
[89] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Anything sold in the uk by any company comes under UK law.
If my company is based in let's say Poland, how will your UK law affect me?
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rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 20:25:00 -
[90] - Quote
Mina Kizen wrote: I see, you were talking about one time rentals of a film, I was talking about Eve and how this UK new law will affect the game.
Sure, that's even easier - this bill will not affect the way Eve-Online runs in any, way, shape or form.
If CCP start doing stuff on TQ that is illegal in the UK, then that's an entirely different matter and laws. Currently this law will have zero influence on CCP and how they run their company.
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