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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1237
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Posted - 2013.05.09 12:25:00 -
[31] - Quote
I entirely agree, our willingness to do business with the Amarr despite our own internal rejection of slavery is something I find shameful. We have basically nothing in common with the Amarr, and the decision to do business with them was, in my view, a foolishly mercenary one. Don't even get me started on the TCMC trade with the Khanid, I feel vicariously ashamed of that one.
What I'm saying to Seriphyn is that while my people have no right to intervene with the Amarr, we can - and I firmly believe should - cast around for other business opportunities which don't involve uncomfortably swallowing our principles for the sake of profit.
The fact is, the way to get us to stop doing business with the slavers is to make us a better offer. As it stands, the best option on the table for the Caldari bloc (in the short term at least, if we ignore the Reclaiming) is coming from the Empire. The Federation's a no-go for obvious reasons of domestic politics at the moment.
We already have megacorporate stations in the Republic, it's not like there's no precedent for peaceful, commercial contact here. But the idea needs to be bought into by both sides - if your attitude is "you've done business with the slavers, we can never do business with you", then what that means logically is that we have no option but to continue doing business with the slavers, even if we would prefer an alternative. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
306
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Posted - 2013.05.09 12:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:The Caldari take their anti-slavery belief so seriously, that it was the State, not the Federation, that sent military aid to the Minmatar during their Rebellion.
I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion. This does not indicate that the belief is held strongly enough to put it higher than "respectful apathy" to the business of other nations, ie. "Not my business". One would argue if the Caldari are anti-slavery at all if the State has never taken any major political moves against it outside their own borders. Just because it is illegal in the State, doesn't mean you are unilaterally "anti-".
Guess who does hold the cause of anti-slavery to such a high regard, that they are potentially willing to go to war over it? That same group is a group that certain Minmatar are getting sick of.
It would have been a difficult affair for the the State to "intervene" on the behalf of the Matari when the Federation was still actively prosecuting war against the Caldari people. From a purely cynical perspective I can see as to why the Federation would have supported the Minmatar rebellions, not out of a sense of idealism, but rather out of the pragmatic decision to destabilize the Empire politically and socially in order to contain the potential threat it posed.
However, I'm afraid such a notion would add a touch of historical realism to a discussion already poised to descend in typical fashion towards the depths of rose-tinted rhetoric so I shall leave it there. You would be correct though, whilst many Caldari do have strong convictions against slavery, myself included, such personal considerations should not impede what is objectively in the interests of the greater good of ones company and the State.
The Federation, Empire, and Republic were and to an extent still are open markets - nothing more. To expect the State and Caldari corporations to somehow pick sides on the basis of foreign moral and ethical perspectives is nothing short of foolishness and to think Caldari will shed our own blood out of idealism and altruism is idiocy.
Although reading this communique I do wonder when we abandoned the enlightened thoughts of Sobaseki to the nationalist demagogues on the one hand and the liberal ideologues on the other. They think they are so different, yet they seem to share the same spirit of complaining why the universe does not conform to their simplistic notions instead of accepting and working with universe as it is. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1237
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Posted - 2013.05.09 14:03:00 -
[33] - Quote
You make it sound like those are the only two options - complaint or resignation.
There's also the option of taking action, you know. There's no guarantee of success of course, but it's not like the only avenues available to us are impotent whining and impotent apathy. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
61
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Posted - 2013.05.09 14:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
You know, speaking personally and not as a Pyre pilot, I've never been a big supporter of Heth. At the same time, I used to be quite the staunch supporter of the Republic. Now, though, I think it would be a great idea if the Republic and the State become allies like this. 'Cos you know what they say about having "friends like these"... Bio and writing |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
164
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
The amount of disrespect the State shows for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1238
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.
Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kithrus
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
259
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:The amount of disrespect many members of the State show for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing.
Well to be fair the State is allied with the Kingdom and the Kingdom has no intention of expanding which is what Stitcher is so afraid off. The Amarr and the Caldari are only default allies by extension to Kingdom and the Empire.
That said however these shifting allegiances are not for the better. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
165
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.
Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.
Because we each value restraint, honor, and the willingness to sacrifice the individual for the greater whole. There was once an understanding of loyalty, too, but those like yourself seem to prefer the Matari definition of the word--turning on your allies whenever they do something you don't like. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
193
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.
You'd call terrorism and dangerous caprice from the Republic a good basis for an alliance?
I think your time with the tribals has made you soft, Stitcher. Yeah, you like 'em. And hey, I'm sure a lot of them are good people. But they're not what is best for the State.
The Ammatar Mandate, the Khanid Kingdom and the Amarr Empire are extremely lucrative markets. Perhaps more importantly our alliance with the Amarr gives us security against the Federation, who seem to be baying for blood lately (incidentally the Federation make fantastic trade-partners, too). Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of-áK+îKAK. Despite her corporate journey, Quinzel now subscribes to the leanings of the Practical bloc.-á |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1239
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kithrus... wrote:the Kingdom has no intention of expanding which is what Stitcher is so afraid off.
Good to know. Shame about the slaves, really.
Quote:What said however these shifting allegiances are not for the better.
I believe in meritocracy, in competition, in the economics of humanity and in the free market of ideas. Alliances are an idea, and ideas are products: if a better product comes along, I'll take my custom to that product instead.
I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
27
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:24:00 -
[41] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion. The Amarr are slavers - we dislike that. But we have no right to tell the Empire what to do just as they have no right to tell us what to do. And so we make our opinion known and I think we should scale back our dealings with the Amarr and build bridges elsewhere. But we won't intervene with the Amarr because we do not have the right to dictate how all those people should live their lives.
And soon you will have not rights at all. Heth will have you all burn to fuel his own rage. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1239
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
You certainly do a talented impersonation of the way he hijacks conversations and turns them towards his agenda, pilot Jorkarzul. It's uncanny. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kithrus
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
259
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:
I believe in meritocracy, in competition, in the economics of humanity and in the free market of ideas. Alliances are an idea, and ideas are products: if a better product comes along, I'll take my custom to that product instead.
I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling.
I like to see the alliances as friendships instead of just 'deals'. Maybe I'm old fashion that way or maybe I'm more human then you but if you truly were that cold you would have never rescued a common brutor friend of ours all those years ago.
Or has the recent years been so jading to whatever is left of your soul to leave you honorless? |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1239
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Persons have friendships, Kith. Nations have agreements, treaties and deals.
Believe me, if anything I sometimes worry I'm becoming even more of a hothead with every passing week. I don't think I'm becoming less honourable, though. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
193
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling.
Disclaimer: not all Caldari agree with the sentiment that the Khanid should invade the State with a fleet of Revelations in order to remain competitive. Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of-áK+îKAK. Despite her corporate journey, Quinzel now subscribes to the leanings of the Practical bloc.-á |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1242
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:44:00 -
[46] - Quote
on the other hand, if they were selling Khanid-modified Revelations, I'd buy ten. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
914
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Posted - 2013.05.09 17:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
I just wanted to say something about interventionism, as we do seem to get a lot of trouble for our "business-only" attitude, which has always confused me a little bit. I'd like to point out that these are my own opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the State at large. They seem fairly prevalent amongst the people I live with, though.
We find the idea of making an outsider change what they are to be a little repugnant. Our concept of freedom applies to groups moreso than individuals, so we find it very, very important to let a group do what it will. Expressions of our own distaste are to be made subtly, through non-contact or politeness. This extends to all of our neighbours, though inn some cases our patience has been sorely tested.
I'm pleased by the Executor's statement and hope that it is seen as an opportunity for new bonds of friendship between us. Perhaps such a friendship could be a bridge between the Republic and Empire, as it could serve between us and the Federation
The Cluster is split in two, and will never be made whole until one side reaches across to the other. Odd, but perhaps fitting, that our warrior-Executor would be the first to hold open his hand. Cynicism or no, this is an opportunity. I hope that we can all make the most of it.
I think that opportunity is a future that the Ray of Matar would have liked to see. |
Natalcya Katla
Naqam Shaktipat Revelators
130
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Posted - 2013.05.09 17:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Well, that's a very Federal attitude. Do you not think it could possibly be that the reason we've not acted upon our anti-slavery stance in an interventionist fashion is because we view interventionism as morally repugnant?
Intervening in that manner is what the Federation did to us back in the day which is where the entire trouble between our nations came from. It's what the Amarr want to do to everyone. It's what you did in 37. But I suppose that doesn't count? |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
498
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.
Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.
If you think that alliances are made of ideals, I am afraid that you may be mistaken sir.
And if you think that the Caldari can find another entity with only compatible ideals, I do not know what to add either.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1269
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:39:00 -
[50] - Quote
You recall my earlier point about principles? Well opposition to slavery is a Caldari principle, and it's currently one we're forgoing for the sake of convenience.
There are other options - ones where we come off no worse for moving over to them, and don't have to ignore our ideals. I'm not suggesting we should find somebody who shares our ideals exactly - that would basically be impossible, after all - but we can at least find a partner who isn't incompatible with our ideals. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems The Fourth District
163
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Natalcya Katla wrote:Stitcher wrote:Well, that's a very Federal attitude. Do you not think it could possibly be that the reason we've not acted upon our anti-slavery stance in an interventionist fashion is because we view interventionism as morally repugnant?
Intervening in that manner is what the Federation did to us back in the day which is where the entire trouble between our nations came from. It's what the Amarr want to do to everyone. It's what you did in 37. But I suppose that doesn't count?
Actually it is a superb example to discuss and counts in every way.
Sansha Kuvakei was/is a Caldari and he violated Caldari law and tradition, much as the officer who authorized the slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew. Kuvakei's violation was on an incredible scale.
From the perspective of Caldari philosophy and thus the leaders of the Caldari State, the Caldari State's involvement in the attempted dismantling of Sansha's Nation was not intervening in the affairs of another people. It was an attempt to police a rogue Caldari. Lai Dai Infinity Systems |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
310
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Posted - 2013.05.10 00:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:You make it sound like those are the only two options - complaint or resignation.
There's also the option of taking action, you know. There's no guarantee of success of course, but it's not like the only avenues available to us are impotent whining and impotent apathy.
It is a question of while slavery itself may be an abhorrent practice, why would it justify the shedding of Caldari blood? We owe no obligations to those that are not citizens of the State, as such any assistance or allegiance to be given to the Republic should be based on political reality and the balance of power in the cluster. I find it distasteful in the extreme to insult the intelligence of the Minmatar to tell them that this is not the case. To conjure ideals and principles in this case leads to the same sort of empty rhetoric and point scoring favoured by Federalists and Provists -- not a relationship that provides tangible benefits in a mutually advantageous framework.
Samira Kernher wrote:The amount of disrespect many members of the State show for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing.
Not so disappointing as your failure to realize that there exists no such thing as permanent alliances, only permanent interests.
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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
28
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Posted - 2013.05.10 00:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:You certainly do a talented impersonation of the way he hijacks conversations and turns them towards his agenda, pilot Jorkarzul. It's uncanny.
I am unsure with what you saying. I have not hijacked this and turned this to my agenda. I simply have stated that Heth want full control of the state to press a war that in many ways is pointless. His hate will be the end of the Caldari people, and from what I have read most sensible (if there are any) Caldari members would agree. I have no agenda here. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Legion
99
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Posted - 2013.05.10 00:50:00 -
[54] - Quote
Theres another side to that coin Stitcher. Its ok having ideals, but should alliances be based on them. Is it not more important to base them on the security of your nation.
Amarr Empire are they not the strongest nation in New Eden, and have they not been good and valuable allies to this State. If we treat them with direspect and become friendly with their enemy, we will probably lose them as a friend. Next time we need help from powerful allie they may not be there to help.
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Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
213
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Posted - 2013.05.10 05:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Theres another side to that coin Stitcher. Its ok having ideals, but should alliances be based on them. Is it not more important to base them on the security of your nation.
Amarr Empire are they not the strongest nation in New Eden, and have they not been good and valuable allies to this State. If we treat them with direspect and become friendly with their enemy, we will probably lose them as a friend. Next time we need help from powerful allie they may not be there to help.
You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us. Your ties to the Empire are born of temporary convenience. Don't kid yourselves into believing that the Amarr see you as equals. They don't. They don't even treat many of their own, who've fought along side them for centuries and who've adopted their religion, as equal partners. Just ask the average Ni-Kunni how they're treated by the Amarr.
Please don't take this as a Gallentean attempting to tell you how to run your affairs. That is not my intent, truly and I mean no offense. Consider my words more as a friendly caution. |
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
427
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Posted - 2013.05.10 06:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:I just wanted to say something about interventionism, as we do seem to get a lot of trouble for our "business-only" attitude, which has always confused me a little bit. I'd like to point out that these are my own opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the State at large. They seem fairly prevalent amongst the people I live with, though.
We find the idea of making an outsider change what they are to be a little repugnant. Our concept of freedom applies to groups moreso than individuals, so we find it very, very important to let a group do what it will. Expressions of our own distaste are to be made subtly, through non-contact or politeness. This extends to all of our neighbours, though inn some cases our patience has been sorely tested. You mind your own damn business. It's a wonderfully Caldari virtue and the cluster would be better if everyone adopted it.
Here is the thing that the Caldari who say they're 'compromising' their principles by doing business with slavers miss: For every machine you give me that can do the job of several people, that's fewer slaves I require. Trade with the Caldari and the introduction of more and better automated systems reduces the economic need for slavery.
The Caldari have done more to 'liberate' the slaves of the Kingdom than the Republic's saber-rattling or the Federation's whining. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
28
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Posted - 2013.05.10 06:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
Makkal Hanaya wrote:[quote=Scherezad]
The Caldari have done more to 'liberate' the slaves of the Kingdom than the Republic's saber-rattling or the Federation's whining.
I will admit that the Common tongue is not my first, but my concept of Saber Rattling is just shaking your sword with no action. I believe the open Revolt and Rebellion and 5 years of war do not count as "Saber Rattling", Also I want to point that all the Caldari have probly done is take slaves from hard labor to the bedrooms. So in fact you have made their live worse. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
427
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Posted - 2013.05.10 06:44:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kingdom. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
166
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Posted - 2013.05.10 07:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
Makkal Hanaya wrote:For every machine you give me that can do the job of several people, that's fewer slaves I require. Trade with the Caldari and the introduction of more and better automated systems reduces the economic need for slavery.
You should not be holding slaves out of 'economic need'. You should be holding them out of concern for their spiritual development. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13
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Posted - 2013.05.10 07:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
I would suggest that those talking to Stitcher in this thread should remember that he is currently a member of a known terrorist organisation and take that into account when they deal with him.
Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.-á |
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