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Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
277
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Posted - 2013.05.09 08:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that? Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits? |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
82
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Posted - 2013.05.09 09:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices We can but hope.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1387
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Posted - 2013.05.09 10:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd say no. Though I'd /like/ to say yes.
The fuel cost isn't the only cost involved when it comes to researching things in a POS. It's the only direct cost (assuming you treat the cost of buying the pos as cap expenditure), but you still have the time that the characters research slot is taken up.
While I've not spent a lot of time looking at the research market, I suspect that cost is treated higher. And it's not going to change. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sabre Rolf
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2013.05.09 13:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that?
did you really just say "doubling"?
you seem to forget, that....
you can research more than one BPO at the same time in a POS at same pos costs POS'es arent the only instruments to research/copy BPO-¦s (stations) biggest portion of BPO value comes by their NPC cost, not by their research level many POSes are placed for other purposes than reasearching but still have research jobs running (those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins) |
Illest Insurrectionist
The Scope Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2013.05.09 17:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sabre Rolf wrote:Rellik B00n wrote:As a rough guide would it be safe to assume that a doubling of POS running costs translates to a doubling of researched BPC and BPO prices, or will the effect be more subtle than that? did you really just say "doubling"? you seem to forget, that.... you can research more than one BPO at the same time in a POS at same pos costs POS'es arent the only instruments to research/copy BPO-¦s (stations) biggest portion of BPO value comes by their NPC cost, not by their research level many POSes are placed for other purposes than reasearching but still have research jobs running (those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins)
Lets start at the top of the list i guess.
If are you are researching 20 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel. If you are researching 203003838 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel.
They amount of research output isn't increase with fuel costs. If you are running twelve labs today and fuel doubles then those twelve labs running costs just doubled.
Stations have a static output. There won't be more copying or research slots after the patch.
The biggest portion of the BPO profit comes from the research, not buying it at NPC cost. If it costs twice as much to reach the desirable level then either the profit or the cost must take a hit.
If you want to have any sort of safety you need to have a station/office in system with the POS. The people putting up POSes in wormholes don't have that advantage. The people putting up POSes for moon materials likely don't have that advantage.
You assert that "those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins." I would like to see some proof of this. The people setting up moon goo POSes certainly care about profit. They arn't collecting moon goo because it improves their health. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
82
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
For many large scale producers, including myself, fuel is a minor cost compared to PLEX. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
82
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sabre Rolf wrote:those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins I am not sure that people who research as a side-line are a major factor in this because of the low volume they generate.
When I look at the BP market I see the same few names setting the prices across all the product lines and none of those are going to be casual producers. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
This should really not be the main topic of discussion..
What should be is when will ccp fix the now even greater problem with npc research slots and their prices..
You can get 1 isk / hour ME research slots from npc.. How can p2p POS running operations ever compete with that?
Sure its a motivator to lure people into low sec to use these, but the difference is way to great, and the queue mechanics instead of a dynamic price development is a HUGE flaw to game mechanics..
It should ALWAYS be more valid to use a POS, over an npc service.
My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk..
The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job. It should only be visible in the list if the issuer have good standing towards the client, if not it shows as anonymous.
This would be a suggestion on how to fix and add better slot functions. Some further tweaking and features would be needed.
The point is npc slots is a 10 year old problem that have never been properly fixed.
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Illest Insurrectionist
The Scope Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
"How can p2p POS running operations ever compete with that?"
A POS operator can do that same research in significantly less time.
A POS operator doesn't have to travel to low sec/high sec islands.
Mynnna has suggested increasing manufacturing fees. I'd assume as an extension to that research costs might be looked at too. Yes, I know Mynnna isn't ccp and Mynnna isn't god.
"It should ALWAYS be more valid to use a POS, over an npc service."
Absolutes arn't always fun gaming. Being able to go along albeit at a slower pace during war decs or extended time away from the game isn't horrible.
"player owned POS slot we see in all stations."
Expanding the roles of POSes is something i think a lot of folks would like to see. |
Sabre Rolf
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Illest Insurrectionist wrote: Lets start at the top of the list i guess. If are you are researching 20 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel. If you are researching 203003838 bpos today then after fuel prices double you'll still be spending twice as much on fuel. They amount of research output isn't increase with fuel costs. If you are running twelve labs today and fuel doubles then those twelve labs running costs just doubled.
yea, I didnt say anything else. But this still doesnt mean you can sell your BPC`s or BPO`s for the doubled price. supply and demand is what matters , buildcost marks just an absolute limit
Illest Insurrectionist wrote: Stations have a static output. There won't be more copying or research slots after the patch.
you nailed it, static source of researched BPOs/copys that does NOT care about fuel cost at all.
Illest Insurrectionist wrote: The biggest portion of the BPO profit comes from the research, not buying it at NPC cost. If it costs twice as much to reach the desirable level then either the profit or the cost must take a hit.
I said the BPO value(price), not profit. at least for BPO-¦s. but a Raven BPO won-¦t be worth 3,2 bils just because it now costs 20 mil more to research it.
Illest Insurrectionist wrote: You assert that "those ppl naturally dont care a lot about margins." I would like to see some proof of this. The people setting up moon goo POSes certainly care about profit.
mate, we arent talking about any proof here, as you certainly cant proof that moon harvesters care about blueprint profits...its like asking for a proof for a weather forecast "care about profit" does not mean they gona make a fuzz about some side-profit. They can, sure; but they just don`t have to.
Blueprint Seller wrote: I am not sure that people who research as a side-line are a major factor in this because of the low volume they generate.
I dont think they are the major factor,no; but they are a factor. Maybe you're also underestimating a bit the number of ppl having the BPO researching running as side line. high sec builders, inventers, garage-POSes, moon harversters etc... it-¦s not nothing.
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
618
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Posted - 2013.05.09 21:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Invention is ALLLOOOT faster with POS then NPC, pos is far better if you set it up correctly, AKA specialize. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
82
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Posted - 2013.05.09 22:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sabre Rolf wrote:Maybe you're also underestimating a bit the number of ppl having the BPO researching running as side line. high sec builders, inventers, garage-POSes, moon harversters etc... it-¦s not nothing. Those people generally don't sell many blueprints though, so they have a very small impact on market price compared to someone who runs a large copy farm. You can have hundreds of people occasionally dropping the odd BP on the market and it doesn't amount to much on a daily basis. The side-liners make their difference to the market by consuming their own product, rather than buying it in. Compare that to a producer that keeps up a constant market presence with many hundreds of simulatenous BPs on conctracts and on the forums. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:Invention is ALLLOOOT faster with POS then NPC, pos is far better if you set it up correctly, AKA specialize.
How is that relevant if you speed things up to 2x speed you still have to compete with prices in cost per hour..
With a cost of 1 isk / hour in some low sec you can speed things up by a factor 500 it still wont change the competition issue..
Low sec npc POS as I mentioned is a valid strategy from a risk reward persective, but it should never be better than say a player run POS in low sec.
As things are the npc option is way too safe, and way too cheap.. So its only a matter of patience that is the benefit to POS and p2p operations..
As stated the npc slot problem is 10 years old and it needs a huge nerf bat as soon as possible..
Personally I relate to the carebears and the fact that they dont want the hassle and risk of running a POS, but they should not be wining on that strategy..
npc slot prices should always be at least 25-100% above what players run at least, and ideally it should be removed entirely and give us a public renting feature in some way.. There is still way to many npc functions that serve hardly any purpose except bending the game in a bad direction. Sinks and faucets are fine, bu slots dont sink isk or materials in any way useful to the game economy, so leaving this as is would be a mistake.. Especially now that decryptors and similar will make things even higher risk, and strain logistics even more..
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Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
277
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Posted - 2013.05.09 22:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
so I got the gist of the arguments here but it doesn't change the fact that higher fuel costs will almost certainly have an impact on researched print costs.
What I'm finding it difficult to get a handle on is how much of an impact.
Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits? |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Public research costs need to go up. I mean, Eve needs isk sinks anyway... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4041
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
In the end it'll all be decided by demand and supply and personal choices. A well managed, well chosen POS allows for flexibility at pricing, expecially when producing a revenue of 30-40M per lab slot. So in the end it comes down to simple points like: "today people buy my Retriever BPC for 10M, let's see how price will settle later". It's possible that many factors would cap (or not) price at 10M no matter the POS maintenace costs.
It's also possible to meet hard-rock minded people who will impose their own, thought out of the blues price.
I.e. one of my 3 competitors (2 of which, along with me, sort of command the highly researched BPCs for a number of BPCs markets) ALWAYS sells his BPCs for 3.5M. Every other BPC could sell at 5M including ME 25 ones, but he'll dump his ME 300 BPCs at 3.5M anyway, every day, without any variation or adaptation. I, on the other side, test the waters and one week I might sell a ME 300 BPC for 3.2M and the next week for 7M because of a shift in demand. Come the patch, that 3.5M guy will start earning less than today, while I'll raise my prices to keep up with the increased costs. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Illest Insurrectionist
The Scope Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 05:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
"With a cost of 1 isk / hour in some low sec you can speed things up by a factor 500 it still wont change the competition issue"
Obelisk BPC prices ~120 mil. Time taken in a station ~44 days. Time in a POS ~28.
That works out to ~4.2mil isk per day made in a POS. ~2.7mil isk per day in a station.
If you were making 18 copies in a pos that is 2.26 billion a month in a POS.
If you were making 18 copies in a station that is 1.458 billion a month in a station.
Unless fuel costs exceed 810 mil/month in this example you'll make more isk/hr using a POS. You also have greater flexibility and less travel time.
That is copying slots alone.
You can get that on a medium without issue. You can get twice that number of copying on a large.
That is how a POS beats a station.
At 24k a block a medium costs ~346mil/month.
At 48k a block a medium costs ~691mil/month.
TLDR: The speed increases makes it easy to compete with stations. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk. I think this is an excellent solution.
You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better.
Caleb Ayrania wrote:The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job. Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones.
Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 08:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Blueprint Seller wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk. I think this is an excellent solution. You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better. Caleb Ayrania wrote:The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job. Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones. Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots. I too think this is an excellent solution.
I've run a lot of research rental operations using the existing functionality and I think I've pushed that to it's limit. It's basically horrible in almost every way. This suggestion would make it excellent and buff industry in Hi-Sec, Low-Sec and 0.0 in one swoop. This will also make large scale industry more scaleable, as currently you'll hit the RSI/Ballache barrier quite early due to the terrible functionality and nasty UI.
This would also give industrialists something worth fighting over.
Certainly an idea worth pushing on the CSM. We would need to see what CCP says about technical issues. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9234
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Blueprint Seller wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:My wish is that ccp links all npc slots into a public access rental system. Where its always a player owned POS slot we see in all stations. The rent is set by players and you can sort by price and select the cheapest, but under the hood that is a player recieving that isk. I think this is an excellent solution. You will need input (datacores, RDBs etc) and output (BPCs) to be taken and delivered from the station hangar for this. I think that change should be applied to the way private research is handled too. Having output magically delivered to station rather than to the POS array itself would be a good useability improvement. The less time I have to spend hunting through hundreds of labs to gather all my BPCs the better. Caleb Ayrania wrote:The problem with jobs that cant complete because of a POS take down should be considered part of the renters risk. Since he should have the option of seeing what corp he is renting from prior to starting the job. Yes, this risk would have to remain in order to prevent "public" slots from being strictly better than "private" ones. Would you be happy to see that change applied to all POS slots (i.e. manufacturing as well)? I would, but applying that buff to manufacturing slots is a massive buff compared to applying it to just research slots. I too think this is an excellent solution. I've run a lot of research rental operations using the existing functionality and I think I've pushed that to it's limit. It's basically horrible in almost every way. This suggestion would make it excellent and buff industry in Hi-Sec, Low-Sec and 0.0 in one swoop. This will also make large scale industry more scaleable, as currently you'll hit the RSI/Ballache barrier quite early due to the terrible functionality and nasty UI. This would also give industrialists something worth fighting over. Certainly an idea worth pushing on the CSM. We would need to see what CCP says about technical issues.
This idea has my attention.
Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?
1 Kings 12:11
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1390
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Posted - 2013.05.10 09:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
This idea has my attention.
Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me?
Implications:
All slots are now player owned. Some would be marked as 'public' so anyone can rent them, from inside a station, with 'magical' shipping between the POS and the station where it can be rented from. I'd suggest a fee on top of the fee for the slot to cover this shipping. Manufacturing fees are paid to player corporations, rather than being a 'tax', at least in part, so we lose an ISK sink (no idea the size of it.)
Questions to consider:
What happens if someone tears down their POS, while people are using their slots? What happens if no-one puts slots up for rent? What happens if the POS/Lab is destroyed? What griefing potential is there? (Needs to be considered at least. Not saying it should be stopped ) Do slots run at regular rates, or the enhanced rate of POS. Are we effectively giving everyone Scientific networking 1, for a fee?
It's an interesting idea, certainly. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This idea has my attention.
Can some concerned person spell out the implications for me? There isn't a downside that I can see. It's just a matter of difficulty of implementation (which is obviously a question for CCP).
You would obviously implement corp and alliance/empire taxes on top of the POS owners fees. In Hi-Sec the NPC station owners would take that tax allowing CCP to replace the current tiny isk sink with a larger one. In Low-Sec the same would be the case but it would make sense to set the taxes lower to balance risk/reward. In 0.0 the taxes would go to the corp and alliance that own the Outpost, giving Sov-holding alliances another way of earning isk from activity in 0.0 (people making stuff) rather than inactivity in 0.0 (moon mining). With a standings element in the tax calculation you can reward high carebear standings in empire while giving 0.0 entities a neat way to control how much they tax different people.
It very much follows in the direction POCOs have gone and is in-line with CCP stated ambitions for 0.0 and elsewhere.
In order to balance the risk element of a player trusting another player to keep their POS array running for the duration of the job you would ideally make it so that the isk fee is taken from the player using the slot but is not handed to the player providing the slot until the job completes successfully. This way you still risk having a job interrupted by a POS destruction or failure (and that is a good thing) but you also make it impossible for a player to rent their slots just before tearing down their POS. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:What happens if someone tears down their POS, while people are using their slots? Job cancelled. Existing functionality. No fee is paid to the POS owner.
Steve Ronuken wrote:What happens if no-one puts slots up for rent? Will not happen. People like me will run not walk to use this feature. But I would suggest keeping some (if not all) of the NPC slots but with the pricing re-done so as to make player owned ones even more attractive.
Steve Ronuken wrote:What happens if the POS/Lab is destroyed? Job cancelled. Existing functionality. No fee is paid to the POS owner.
Steve Ronuken wrote:What griefing potential is there? (Needs to be considered at least. Not saying it should be stopped ) You can destroy POSes or tear down POSes to grief people. Neither is really a bad thing.
Steve Ronuken wrote:Do slots run at regular rates, or the enhanced rate of POS. The enchanced rate, no point changing that, particularly if you keep some NPC slots and keep the current outpost slots too.
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Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
84
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
That would also increase the value of hi-sec real estate.
If you think about having a large faction POS in a busy system near a hub. Put 12 Hyasyoda's in it to give you 48 ME and 48 PE slots (all faster than normal NPC slots) and then rent those out for an average of 10m per month. That's 960m per month, minus 300m fuel (or whatever when the prices settle), for 660m per month in profit. 10m per month slot fee is peanuts to the end user.
I really do not think you will have a hard time finding people to rent out slots in good locations.
The same goes for Outpost systems in 0.0, which can be turned into industrialists playgrounds if you throw up a good number of supporting towers. That is a stark contrast to the current situation in 0.0 (and even after the proposed outpost upgrades). |
Taalla Hita
podgoo.net
0
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Can we have an estimate of the number of POS (and amount of fuel) required to replace the NPC slots?
EDIT: all fuel, not just ice |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1390
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:What griefing potential is there? (Needs to be considered at least. Not saying it should be stopped ) You can destroy POSes or tear down POSes to grief people. Neither is really a bad thing.
Put up large ship array, tear it down when someone puts a long job in
What /might/ be interesting is an escrow for 'if your job is cancelled, you'll get this in payment, per hour.', set by the players. Take the risk, and go for the cheaper slot without escrow, or go for the more expensive one, with at least some being given.
Then you'll have a reason not to tear down towers on war decs. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sabre Rolf
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
yea im sure CCP is gona boost afk-isk to avoid ppl using isk |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Taalla Hita wrote:Can we have an estimate of the number of POS (and amount of fuel) required to replace the NPC slots?
EDIT: all fuel, not just ice I don't think it is a good idea to remove all the existing slots to introduce this. I think there is a place for both NPC slots and Outpost slots as slower but safer options for the risk adverse. You do not really want to force people into a new playstyle, rather bait the hook with profit and people will move over all by themselves. The prices for NPC slots need to be re-evaluated anyway, but players can compete with the NPC offering quite easily with their faster slots. Let each player choose which they want to use and in time there will be plenty of people providing and using player supplied slots.
Also there are places where POS cannot be anchored, so removing NPC slots from those locations would cause a bit of a black hole.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:What griefing potential is there? (Needs to be considered at least. Not saying it should be stopped ) You can destroy POSes or tear down POSes to grief people. Neither is really a bad thing. Put up large ship array, tear it down when someone puts a long job in What /might/ be interesting is an escrow for 'if your job is cancelled, you'll get this in payment, per hour.', set by the players. Take the risk, and go for the cheaper slot without escrow, or go for the more expensive one, with at least some being given. Then you'll have a reason not to tear down towers on war decs. No, the "payment is transferred when the job completes successfully" method is the ideal. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
188
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sabre Rolf wrote: yea im sure CCP is gona boost afk-isk to avoid ppl using isk It would still be an isk sink due to tax. If coded correctly it would be a larger isk sink with CCP adjustable settings. No new isk would be generated and it's a market priced service industry so if it's too easy and profitable to do then prices will naturally fall.
Almost the entire EVE industrial model is AFK isk making. Changing that would be somewhat more fundamental. I don't think CCP want to make people actually put together the ships themselves, so afk is probably the way it is going to stay.
Resource gathering, without which none on the AFK industry stuff can happen, is where the activity happens and that is where CCP is moving with recent and planned changes. |
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