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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
83
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Roime wrote: I know many players who think that scanning is hard. I don't find arranging probes tedious in any way.
F1, F1 -> move probe up, F1 -> move probe down, F1 -> move probe left, F1 -> move probe right, F1 -> move probe top, F1 -> move probe bottom. That's pretty much textbook definition of tedious.
Quote: I don't explore in hisec, new players do. None of those options are available for them. Their entry-level 4/10s are still going to be blitzed by older players, of which there will be even more. They will find less sites. They can't sell grav sigs to their noobcorp mates. Loot value will drop. All these lead into disappointed new players, while ruining the other aspects of scanning for older players.
Last I checked even 1 day old players can declare war, join a player corp or hire mercenaries. Eve is not game that throws purples at you for being able to enter your password without breaking fingers. And I really believe that this should not change. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Aracimia Wolfe
The Cursed Navy
238
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:23:00 -
[92] - Quote
ITT: People complain about something being too easy now that should never have had to be hard.
The difficulty in probing shouldn't be the act of finding a site, it should be the act of staying in one piece when you find a site worth going to.
Kill it with Fire! |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2739
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Roime wrote: I know many players who think that scanning is hard. I don't find arranging probes tedious in any way.
F1, F1 -> move probe up, F1 -> move probe down, F1 -> move probe left, F1 -> move probe right, F1 -> move probe top, F1 -> move probe bottom. That's pretty much textbook definition of tedious. Quote: I don't explore in hisec, new players do. None of those options are available for them. Their entry-level 4/10s are still going to be blitzed by older players, of which there will be even more. They will find less sites. They can't sell grav sigs to their noobcorp mates. Loot value will drop. All these lead into disappointed new players, while ruining the other aspects of scanning for older players.
Last I checked even 1 day old players can declare war, join a player corp or hire mercenaries. Eve is not game that throws purples at you for being able to enter your password without breaking fingers. And I really believe that this should not change.
Dropping probes is far less tedious than making 20 jumps in hisec, or running a site.
Are you seriously suggesting that a 1-day old player will have more success in exploration if he starts wardeccing the older players blitzing sites?
If you think that EVE shouldn't cater to anyone able to log in, why do you support scanning made easier?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
85
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
Roime wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that a 1-day old player will have more success in exploration if he starts wardeccing the older players blitzing sites?
If he wants to stop those players, yes, of course. Then again, a really new player will focus on the 1/10 and 2/10 sites and leave the "harder" ones until he has the skills to fly a cruiser well. But even if he does not care about stopping his competition: More players running sites => more modules on market => less profit => less high skill players doing the sites (when they can earn more in missions/incursions) => less competition.
Quote:If you think that EVE shouldn't cater to anyone able to log in, why do you support scanning made easier?
It should of course lower the entry barrier to professions, but like I said above, that will mean that the professions are less valuable. The system balances itself, there is no need to artificially keep the number of explorers down just so that risk-averse players can chain-run their 4/10s.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
643
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:11:00 -
[95] - Quote
This should be a nice change The whole launch, move, launch, move etc was what put me of scanning in the first place.
The auto formation will be a welcome addition as well, having a low special awareness meant scanning was extremely frustrating for me.
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Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
164
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:12:00 -
[96] - Quote
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Eurydia Vespasian wrote:i kind of liked it being tedious. it helped ensure that not everyone in the game would be out there probing because they felt it was boring or they were impatient on that level. which translated into less competition for sites. You could just shoot your competition, you know? i could. in low and below. but say i'm in highsec looking for low sec ore grav sites (which just any scrub will be able to find before long as well) or combat sites or w/e...it seems bad for business to trade a strategic cruiser to concord for an imicus or magnate killmail lol
Two words
Mission Gnosis. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
16
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:06:00 -
[97] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kitanga wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:I haven't tested it personally, but from what you describe it seems they've listened to the complaints and implemented appropriate improvements. It seems very similar to the old system except without all the pointless tedium. The only real change seem to be the removal of deep space probes, but the function seems to be included in the scanner, so no real loss there either. wait... what?? deep space probes are removed from the game? i sure hope the replacement provides all the intel that a deep space probe provided. DSP were pretty much exclusively used to find the relative signal strengths of cosmic sigs, right? The discovery scanner gives you this information. The only problem is that it's not incorporated into an easily accessible list, it's now spread out in separate points in space so you have to pan your camera around to find all of them.
I just got on Singularity. what they have done is a disaster. this overlay is not a adequate replacement for Deep Space Probes. one thing everyone seems to forget (have not heard it mentioned) is that DSP would show you Ship Signatures, and POS, Drones, everything. i could drop one probe (at 265au) in a WH and no matter how big the WH system is, i can see if there are any uncloaked ships or any POS in one 256AU probe. no more. this is not good. this is game breaking for me.
all they needed to do was allow probes to be launched in a set pattern of your choosing (and not even all launched in one button click), and they went ahead and aborted the whole probing system instead. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
106
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Does NOBODY else have the same problem that I mentioned on page one?
This is probably my number one reason I don't enjoy probing anymore, and why I'm very happy to see these changes.
The Problem:
When sizing down a probe formation, after moving, a sizing attempt on single or multiple probes will usually (sometimes it just won't!) cause the size of the rest of the probes to balloon randomly, to a place slightly between normal 'selectable' ranges. In order to return the probes to their proper size, one has to quickly re-size all the probes, then attempt the adjustment that caused the problem again. This bug can repeat any time you resize a probe(s) after moving the formation, even multiple times in an attempt on a single signature.
My ability to click+drag three times quickly in a workaround for this bug hardly constitutes skill. Nor do most of the tedious actions associated with probing. My main beef is with the auto-return, that removes a valid harassment/pvp/disruption/fleet command tactic.
Please make auto-return a checkbox option! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4934
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:13:00 -
[99] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:I just got on Singularity. what they have done is a disaster. this overlay is not a adequate replacement for Deep Space Probes. one thing everyone seems to forget (have not heard it mentioned) is that DSP would show you Ship Signatures, and POS, Drones, everything. i could drop one probe (at 265au) in a WH and no matter how big the WH system is, i can see if there are any uncloaked ships or any POS in one 256AU probe. no more. this is not good. this is game breaking for me. Go ahead and leave feedback in the appropriate thread then. |
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
211
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:21:00 -
[100] - Quote
NARDAC wrote:
It used to take some skill to ........
I have been away for a good while. It seems like the arguments against change is still the same lol
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14166
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:24:00 -
[101] - Quote
GǪso, much as expected, the change will lower the tedium and maybe change the barrier of entry (meaning you have more people to compete against, meaning being good at it matters more) and they've made advanced probing a bit more difficult (i.e. requiring more skill).
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1779
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down.
Dumbing things up?
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Mangold
Invicta.
27
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:33:00 -
[103] - Quote
Probing was dumbed down in 2006 (or 2007-2008 i can't remember and don't care). Before that you needed skills to probe out stuff. This isn't really anything more than another step down the same road. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4937
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:35:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso, much as expected, the change will lower the tedium and maybe change the barrier of entry (meaning you have more people to compete against, meaning being good at it matters more) and they've made advanced probing a bit more difficult (i.e. requiring more skill).
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down. Has anyone in your life outside of EVE ever scolded you for making too much sense? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14168
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:48:00 -
[105] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Has anyone in your life outside of EVE ever scolded you for making too much sense? Not scolded no, but people at work tend to glance in my direction at the end of those business planning kick-off workshops when the chair ask if anyone has any last words or summing-up to offerGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2752
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Posted - 2013.05.10 16:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso, much as expected, the change will lower the tedium and maybe change the barrier of entry (meaning you have more people to compete against, meaning being good at it matters more) and they've made advanced probing a bit more difficult (i.e. requiring more skill).
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down.
There's less possibilities to be better, and they removed all advanced probing options.
Dumbing things down.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14169
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:18:00 -
[107] - Quote
Roime wrote:There's less possibilities to be better, and they removed all advanced probing options. No, some of them are just a bit broken in the current build. And with more competition, the need to be better increases.
Smartening things up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
236
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Posted - 2013.05.10 16:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Because tediousness requires smarts.
No, tediousness requires persistence, not smarts.
The probing UI and controls were needlessly stupid. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2752
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Posted - 2013.05.10 16:35:00 -
[109] - Quote
They removed the option to launch 8 probes. It's not broken, it's by design. Advanced probing techniques use 8 probes. They removed DSPs, on purpose. They removed the option to leave probes behind, on purpose.
Good skills lost their meaning, you can achieve the same as all V scanner with basic modules, and training a lower multiplier skill.
Getting system sigs is automatic. Seeing new sigs is automatic.
Removing sig list makes wormhole anom running more tedious.
Really, the only good thing is the celestial bracket fix.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14171
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:47:00 -
[110] - Quote
Roime wrote:They removed the option to launch 8 probes. It's not broken, it's by design. Advanced probing techniques use 8 probes. Correction: some advanced probing techniques are greatly helped by 8 probes. With a bit of player skill, you can compensate once the broken parts are fixed.
Quote:Good skills lost their meaning GǪaside from making it easier and faster to find difficult targets.
Quote:Getting system sigs is automatic. Seeing new sigs is automatic. GǪwhich it pretty much was before as well, and it certainly had nothing to do with skill or difficulty anyway.
Quote:Removing sig list makes wormhole anom running more GǪreliant on player skill. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.05.10 17:39:00 -
[111] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Roime wrote:Quote:Removing sig list makes wormhole anom running more GǪreliant on player skill.
Fighting poor UI design is not skill. |
Zyrbalax III
Core World Imperium
83
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Posted - 2013.05.10 18:57:00 -
[112] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso, much as expected, the change will lower the tedium and maybe change the barrier of entry (meaning you have more people to compete against, meaning being good at it matters more) and they've made advanced probing a bit more difficult (i.e. requiring more skill).
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down.
Tippia,
I've seen you more than once argue that CCP's job is to provide players with tools to do stuff in this sandbox, then step back and watch the creative things we do with them.
I see these changes (removing DSPs, fixed probe formations, max 7 probes, can't leave probes behind) as removing existing tools or limiting their functionality. I don't understand how you could see them differently, and I am surprised you seem to be arguing that these changes are good.
I have no problem with improving the accessibility of scanning and removing the tedium (F1 F1 F1 F1 etc), both of which would introduce more competition to this aspect of the game; but deliberately removing these tools makes it harder for the good scanners (i.e. those who've really done their homework and gone out to practice and find new ways to use the tools they have) to differentiate themselves from hoi poloi (who just want to push one button to get their cheese).
I'll caveat this once again; I'm sure these changes will lead to their own set of emergent gameplay and probably to a new set of "advanced scanning techniques"; but I don't see why the currently existing tools and techniques need to be removed. More variety of tools is surely better in a sandbox right? |
Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
210
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Posted - 2013.05.10 19:21:00 -
[113] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso, much as expected, the change will lower the tedium and maybe change the barrier of entry (meaning you have more people to compete against, meaning being good at it matters more) and they've made advanced probing a bit more difficult (i.e. requiring more skill).
So it's pretty much the exact opposite of dumbing things down. Tippia, I've seen you more than once argue that CCP's job is to provide players with tools to do stuff in this sandbox, then step back and watch the creative things we do with them. I see these changes (removing DSPs, fixed probe formations, max 7 probes, can't leave probes behind) as removing existing tools or limiting their functionality. I don't understand how you could see them differently, and I am surprised you seem to be arguing that these changes are good. I have no problem with improving the accessibility of scanning and removing the tedium (F1 F1 F1 F1 etc), both of which would introduce more competition to this aspect of the game; but deliberately removing these tools makes it harder for the good scanners (i.e. those who've really done their homework and gone out to practice and find new ways to use the tools they have) to differentiate themselves from hoi poloi (who just want to push one button to get their cheese). I'll caveat this once again; I'm sure these changes will lead to their own set of emergent gameplay and probably to a new set of "advanced scanning techniques"; but I don't see why the currently existing tools and techniques need to be removed. More variety of tools is surely better in a sandbox right?
Good points.
From what I've been able to gather from guys in W-space is that they belate the removal of DSP's and are annoyed by the fact that it's a pain to move individual probes when you want.
One click = seven probes was awesome.
Probe formations = Possibly good if we can make our own.
System scanner = maybe awesome. I can't get Sisi to work for some reason so I can't play with them myself.
Anyone that actually trained Astrometrics 5 is decidedly butthurt because with these changes, there's absolutely NO reason to have Astrometrics 5. CCP should hand out a pacifier that has Astrometrics 5 as a requirement, so we don't all drown in a river of tears.
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Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
212
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Posted - 2013.05.11 02:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
Roime wrote:They removed the option to launch 8 probes. It's not broken, it's by design. Advanced probing techniques use 8 probes. They removed DSPs, on purpose. They removed the option to leave probes behind, on purpose.
Good skills lost their meaning, you can achieve the same as all V scanner with basic modules, and training a lower multiplier skill.
(..)
Removing sig list makes wormhole anom running more tedious.
Really, the only good thing is the celestial bracket fix.
If only there was an official test server feedback thread that CCP was monitoring.
Oh wait, there is one, and CCP is listening to these concerns.
And something that is getting missed is the skills are unlocking new modules - they are not merely just losing bonuses, but by unlocking new modules contribute to even more choice and customization and player skill in deciding what they want to emphasize in scanning, raw probe strength vs deviation etc. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
340
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Posted - 2013.05.11 02:41:00 -
[115] - Quote
NARDAC wrote:Anyone else play with probing on the test server yet?
WAY easier. 1) No matter your skills, you can (have to) have 7 probes. 2) Click one button, 7 probes appear in perfect pattern 3) Move all is now default (have to hold shift to move only one) 4) Changing resolution and moving all probes can now be done with a single click-drag. Use the sphere that shows the scan range of a probe to rezise that one probe, all the probes resize and move to maintain the ideal overlaps in the perfect pattern.
You will still have to move the center of the formation on the X-Y and then the Z, but resizing and resetting the pattern will be SOOO easy in Odyssey. It's like auto-magical!
Well I never got into exploration heavy, just like I never felt the need to do a POS for the same reason... it's not the smarts that is lacking (well at least in my case), I just really didn't like spending a whole evening moveing little boxes around, and the highlight of that was when someone asked "what are you doing? is that a math program?" ...um no it's kind of like math, accept it's a spaceship game and I am probing down sites... at which point I was alone in the room again... it was that interesting to watch...
I will have to try it on SISI, but I do feel the probe formations are a def improvement, as are the ease of movement, there are some people that can't do fine mouse adjustments also that needed to be considered... just think how people with health issues had to say... not for me...and I don't and have a pretty good mouse and still there where times, when I was slapping that mouse down on the desk in annoyance.
What I am hoping for is more people will get into exploration AND that the actual exploration contect is interesting and no just running around doing the open can thing... will see... IMHO it does look like it's going to be interesting, so I will give it a go once it's live. Look at all the Macks in local...impressive...very impressive...I see you have fashioned a new exhumer...much like you father's...your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen. |
Oxandrolone
Bite Me inc Bitten.
178
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Posted - 2013.05.11 04:33:00 -
[116] - Quote
I was at the security round-table at fanfest and apparently there was a client injection that did this, they discovered people were using it and that it was really awesome so they built there own feature and implemented it :D
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.05.11 06:52:00 -
[117] - Quote
Oxandrolone wrote:I was at the security round-table at fanfest and apparently there was a client injection that did this, they discovered people were using it and that it was really awesome so they built there own feature and implemented it :D
The injection did what, launch a set number of probes and place them?
If that was the case why in hells name did not CCP just steal the idea and add it to the existing code, make a couple of extra buttons for the functionality and build additional shiny, shiny for the masses on that?
If CCP had gone this route, the on-board scanner would be the overlay scanner, it could list as well as show in space the sites below DED 3 rating, its not complex as the data is only retrieved once from the server and used twice on the client, this gives both don-¦t change and oh new shiny camps what they require.
additional thoughts: The Ice belt changes, nice, but with the addition of grav sites to the overlay scanner a great opportunity has been missed by CCP. They have said that they are unhappy about asteroid belts on many occasions, but adding probed out grav sites to it is a mistake. What they should have taken the time and effort to do is make resident asteroid belts non static, given them a random spawn life time in system between 18 and 36 hours, with 30 minutes before exhausted/timed out sites re-spawn and have these and only these clearly visible and listed in the on-board/overlay scanner. This would have kept the value of the acquisition of all the skills and kept a side of exploration (finding stuff) as an addition to game play, keeping corporation interaction where other players skills add to the greater whole.
The addition to the overlay of all probable sites they say does away with deep space probes, lol, i see no Ships or POS-¦s listed, the inventiveness of the players (something HILMAR thinks adds to the game) have made unintended aspects of the probe to be used in useful game play roles and gives it the status of SANDBOX just like the humble jetcan, it greatly adds to the game, removing them actually may harm the game.
IMO adding non resident grav sites is like giving lvl 4 mission runners a very high damage smartbomb with a 100km range, no work or game play required, all bacon all the time. |
Prototype SV-17
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.05.11 08:14:00 -
[118] - Quote
Making it less tedious (note: I only thought it was tedious when you waste time on WH's) seems like it will just make it where more people do it. This could lead to dropped prices due to overcrowded market. Time will tell. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2013.05.11 08:58:00 -
[119] - Quote
Roime wrote:They removed the option to launch 8 probes. It's not broken, it's by design. Advanced probing techniques use 8 probes. They removed DSPs, on purpose. They removed the option to leave probes behind, on purpose.
Good skills lost their meaning, you can achieve the same as all V scanner with basic modules, and training a lower multiplier skill.
And the follow-on skills still give bonuses on top of that, so the really skilled are still better off. Fancy that.
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Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.05.11 09:03:00 -
[120] - Quote
Hmmmm, dumb down something that was already dumb.
Hold the phone. |
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