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David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
57
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Posted - 2013.05.10 09:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, letGÇÖs face it. FW is pretty decent at the moment. Lots of targets, lots of PVP. WhatGÇÖs to complain about?
Well, to my mind the problem is that the PVP is pretty meaningless. DonGÇÖt get me wrong, I love meaningless PVP. WeGÇÖve all been glutting ourselves on solo and small gang frigate stuff in recent months and itGÇÖs been great. However, if you deign to undock in anything bigger than a Destoyer youGÇÖre liable to find nothing to shoot. And Battleships? Pfft as if.
The difficulty is thereGÇÖs nothing to care about in the present system of FW sov, so why put anything on the line? Systems flip this way and that. Chests are beat. ***** are not given.
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David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
57
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Posted - 2013.05.10 09:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Step 1. Remove player LP for capturing sites. GÇ£But this will mean that all the solo targets dry up?!? Wah!GÇ¥ Replace with chance of naval commander spawn and chance of faction loot drop to keep dem frigates in space.
Step 2. Player VP for a system is attributed to his Corp/Alliance. Corp/alliance gets benefits in terms of system control. GÇ£What benefits, null dun want jammers!?! Wah!GÇ¥ Null style upgrades to space for pve/industry. Outpost style upgrades to npc stations such as research slots. Or just giff jammers ffs so we can defend our moons from lol20titans.
or
Taxation. The ability to levy a tax on the indigenous people of your space fiefdom for the glory of the militia. Higher taxation increases percentage of capture points accrued by hostile plexing so be careful!
(Other ideas gratefully received)
LP for kills and missions seems fine to me. Main thing is farmers shouldnGÇÖt effect warzone control and that if a Corp/Alliance holds space they should be rewarded for that. Current system rewards null bear alts only.
What do you think, could something like this work? |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
474
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Posted - 2013.05.10 09:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
no |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
944
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Posted - 2013.05.10 09:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Step one: change plex takin' PVE from being the only, sole way to control ownership of systems.
Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is the game doing this to me"
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
275
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I really do not see the point why your proposal should be better than the current system. |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
58
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Posted - 2013.05.10 10:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Because it encourages entities to claim and hold space rather than having vast swathes of the war one that no one cares about.
I would also love it to encourage infighting whereby the choicest systems are contested by intra-militia entities.
It would be different because it rewards organisation and planning rather than the efforts of stabbed scrubs. |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
187
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
i really dont understand it bk before inferno the staple fun time ships were bcs/bs then people got rich and stopped flying them i thought the flow of isk would have more people flying them and not giving a fk about losses. GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
60
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
The trouble is if you fly about in BCs you go through system after system of frigates in novice/small plexes. There needs to be a reason to fly bigger stuff, currently there's only |
Bengal Bob
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
107
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Posted - 2013.05.10 11:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:i really dont understand it bk before inferno the staple fun time ships were bcs/bs then people got rich and stopped flying them i thought the flow of isk would have more people flying them and not giving a fk about losses.
I fully blame T1 logi changes. Cruisers and frigates are just so much cheap fun now. If you bring bc, you kinda have to bring T2 logi which means more caution and less funtimes leeroy which everyone is now doing in cruiser down.
You can throw away loads of cruisers and T1 logi for the price of a properly fitted bc. The aggro changes have also really limited the prevalence of scimitars and guardians in smaller gangs. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
275
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Posted - 2013.05.10 13:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
David Devant wrote:Because it encourages entities to claim and hold space rather than having vast swathes of the war one that no one cares about.
I would also love it to encourage infighting whereby the choicest systems are contested by intra-militia entities.
It would be different because it rewards organisation and planning rather than the efforts of stabbed scrubs.
Current FW mechanics clearly favours hit and run tactics as well guerilla warefare which in my opinion is a feature and not a bug. Otherwise we would end up in FW with the same blob-none-sense as we already have in 0.0. From my experience, ad hoc kitchen sink fleet work much better in FW as "well coordinated" and "prepared" and "remote repped" fleets just because of their agility. Which again is a clear feature from my point of view. However, those organized fleeds clear excel the kitchen sink stuff once it comes to bunker busting, which however is a minor part of the FW-game.
So I think what the real problem is, that except for bunker busting there is no need for well organized fleets or even just heavy DPS ships. So maybe we just should think about how the current game mechanics could be improved so that organized heavy fleets have a bit more space in FW.
One possibility for this would be to allow the defending party to invest LP into a plex-stabilization bunker. Just imagine this: You are defending your home system and those nasty stabbed LP-whores are running the plexes. In such a situation you should be able to install at a plex a "stabilization bunker". This bunker should have let say 100.000 hit points and it should stop the counter counting up and down as long as it is existing outside in front of the plex. So the plex is basically frozen. However, new plexes should still be able to pop up. Which means that this system over time accumulates plexes in your system which on the other side means, once the enemy brings a "real" fleet and kills all the bunkers he can quickly use his force by distributing it along the plexes to take the system. This would encourage larger fights for important systems (nobody will spend LP on bunkers if system is not important).
What do you think? |
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David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
60
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sort of an interesting idea in that it enables the possibilty for one side to quickly turn the tide in a system. Having said that it would just mean people turning up when you're sleeping to cause you a big plexing headache in the morning.
I don't get your assertion that guerilla (by which I read blobbing with frigs) warfare is a clear feature of FW at present. Yeh it happens and it's fun. But it has no impact on actual FW stats. Truth is no one really cares about 80% of the map because all it does is line the pockets of farmers.
I would like ALL of FW space to be meaningful. That won't happen until it can turn a few quid for an organised group. I don't buy the idea that this would induce null style blobbing. IMO it would induce a few battles, rather than the continual skirmishing we have at present. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1406
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Stated Problem: PvP is meaningless. All we're fighting in is frigs and Dessies: Stated Solution: Remove LP, Taxation, Move resources from player to corporation,
WTF?? Surely there must be a more direct solution to solve your stated problem. |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
60
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Posted - 2013.05.10 14:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:WTF?? Surely there must be a more direct solution to solve your stated problem.
Go on... |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
106
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Posted - 2013.05.10 15:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think FW is currently great. If you want larger more organized fleets, then you need to move up the food chain. You can currently get that content in lowsec. If that is what you want, get into holding and destroying POCO and/or POSes. I don't think FW itself should offer this kind of content but rather the content should be lowsec based to include the lowsec pirates which are the most organized and competent groups living in lowsec. There is also nothing stopping you from participating in both FW and lowsec based content. . |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
938
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Posted - 2013.05.10 15:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
What if in order to capture a system you need to cap x number of novice plexes, y number of small plexes, z number of medium plexes and w number of larger plexes. It won't solve everything but it might help this issue.
Would you need to dplex only novices to get the number of novices down? Same with larges? That might be good.
Could you capture more novices or smalls than you need to build a buffer? IDK
Would the lp stop after a certain amount of buffer? Probably but you could still open one and some pvp out of it.
Would it require more work on the ui than it's worth. Probably but I really don't know.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1208
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Posted - 2013.05.10 15:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
1) Cearain will be along shortly to derail your thread and chase everyone out of it.
2) At work so here is my copy and paste of ideas:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:One: All LP is earned at a second tier level for all militias. Unleash the market for balance.
Two: The tier a militia is at is only determined by the number of systems in the warzone that militia controls. 20.1%? You are tier two. 40.1%? You are tier 3. Etc.
Three: Buy IHub upgrades to better your system. These would be a mixture of military or economic benefits that would be available at different tiers. Station lockout for enemy militia? Tier one upgrade. Reduced clone cost, research slots, or manufacturing boots? Tier one with the choice of upgrading the benefit with each subsequent tier. Other upgrade ideas could include:
Timer rollbacks on abandoned plexes. Defensive plexing LP for that system only. Notifications for Cerain. Activation of mission agents if present in system. More friendly NPC's in plexes or slower plex spawns. (Only available at low tiers) Sentry guns on IHub. Station lockouts for WT. (tier 4 or 5. WT are not the same as enemy militia) Moon or PI production upgrades. Anomaly or rat upgrades.
Add any other upgrades you might think of here. As CCP adds things like Ice anomalies or tags for sec status new upgrades could be introduced as well.
Four: The upgrades can be destroyed only by system conquest or directly by the opposing militia. Tired of stealth bomber mission runners? Get a fleet together and go shoot up Dal/Eszur! |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
956
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Posted - 2013.05.10 15:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
I dont get why a novice plex ship can do just about any size plex while larger ships are BANNED from smaller ones.
What about spawns depending on ship size?
small ship goes in a large plex no change
large ship goes into a small plex all kinds of NPC hell breaks lose Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1406
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Posted - 2013.05.10 16:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
David Devant wrote:X Gallentius wrote:WTF?? Surely there must be a more direct solution to solve your stated problem. Go on... OK, here's what would be more direct proposed solutions to the stated problem: 1. Ship restrictions should work both ways. Cruisers can't cap Novice plexes, so T1 frigates shouldn't cap Medium plexes. 2. Moar unrestricted plexes.
Edit: At this point Cearain will pollute the thread with endless walls of meaningless text, so... o/ |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
118
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Posted - 2013.05.10 17:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
how about adding the cyno jammer. if you want to see battleships flying around again. FW needs cyno jammer. im sure even the minmatar would agree to this. but wait baha wouldnt be able to drop his archon in on every engagment. then get owned by PL |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
62
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Posted - 2013.05.10 17:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
@XG - Your proposal would definitely help get bigger ships into space. However, it's weird. Also I'm not sure it would promote larger scale engagements.
I could go for much of what Zarnak proposes... |
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
476
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Posted - 2013.05.10 19:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
There is no need to fix FW, CCP achieved all goals they had, if your goals were different that is your problem.
FW is woking fine, new players are having fun and shooting each others. If you want meaning for war FW is not for you, go 0.0. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
106
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Posted - 2013.05.10 20:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:how about adding the cyno jammer. if you want to see battleships flying around again. FW needs cyno jammer. im sure even the minmatar would agree to this. but wait baha wouldnt be able to drop his archon in on every engagment. then get owned by PL
No, this is not the solution. The solution is to somehow get the 0.0 guys from sticking their noise into lowsec content with massive fleets. At fanfest, CCP Soundwave said something like he wanted lowsec to be some sort of backend alley way where 0.0 guys wouldn't want to go because their massive ships and fleets wouldn't be effective there and lowsec really wouldn't be worth their time. He alluded to guerrilla warfare where taking tanks into a tight dark alley with no way to maneuver wasn't such a good idea.
QCATS is recruiting: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
585
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Posted - 2013.05.10 21:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you want larger scale engagements. Do some research and rf some pocos and towers. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
478
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Posted - 2013.05.11 05:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:how about adding the cyno jammer. if you want to see battleships flying around again. FW needs cyno jammer. im sure even the minmatar would agree to this. but wait baha wouldnt be able to drop his archon in on every engagment. then get owned by PL No, this is not the solution. The solution is to somehow get the 0.0 guys from sticking their noise into lowsec content with massive fleets. At fanfest, CCP Soundwave said something like he wanted lowsec to be some sort of backend alley way where 0.0 guys wouldn't want to go because their massive ships and fleets wouldn't be effective there and lowsec really wouldn't be worth their time. He alluded to guerrilla warfare where taking tanks into a tight dark alley with no way to maneuver wasn't such a good idea.
So CCP wants to make lowsec as second highsec? |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
62
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Posted - 2013.05.11 08:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think you're 'working as intended' guff is wearing rather thin. There's a whole spectrum of pvp between what we have now and null sov grinding. I just want a bit more of it involved in FW occupancy, cruiser brawls, BC fights, the odd capital engagement.
I'm not after l33t end game stuff, just more than frig kills.
The way I see this happening is to make it pay for corps to take and most importantly hold space.
Ask yourself this question. If you were one of the empires, how would you go about encouraging your militias to take territory. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
667
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Posted - 2013.05.11 11:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
David Devant wrote:...Ask yourself this question. If you were one of the empires, how would you go about encouraging your militias to take territory. Well DUH! Obvious answer is to hand out unlimited currency for attacking the enemy to be used in the empire controlled stores .. it is same conclusion that CCP arrived at and thus what we have
Problem with what we have is that it discourages conflict when combat is not essential for taking/holding space. It fosters an environment where 'minimum necessary force' is used (frigs/dessies) almost exclusively as monetary incentives invariably urges people to want to maximize what can be raked in which is also why defending is almost universally laughed at.
Imagine how gay null life would be if all gains were made during the invasion phase .. you'd have large unopposed TZ blobs shooting EHP with no pew beyond 'for fun', there would be no outposts built except as way stations for the roaming blobs and POS deployments limited to be used as garages .. no Empire/Alliance building and chest beating only over wallet digits.
I applaud your desire for something better, but momentum of the "fix FW" movement came to an abrupt halt when comic-book dollar signs replaced peoples pupils, so expect it to be a battle up a rather steep hill. Would be awesome if main profits were to come from holding/defending/developing space (a la null) with income from taking space being relegated to second (or third) place .. it is what some of us tried convincing CCP to do when we bickered about system upgrade paths but they must have been scared about being accused of wanting to make LS/FW into null-lite so instead opted for a high-sec clone (characterized by PvE and Risk Aversion). |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
62
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Posted - 2013.05.11 11:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thanks for the considered post. I think what is really needed is a feeling of consensus amongst those of us who have been involved in this theatre of eve for the long haul. Despite the extensive evidence to the contrary in this forum it is possible to achieve constructive dialogue and a lot of the input to this thread so far shows this.
I appreciate that you feel that CCP has moved on. This may in fact be the case. However, they have no incentive whilst both sides moan or gloat over irrelevant system gains whilst ignoring the salient facts.
I think what a lot of people can agree on is that we want some form of sov-lite that doesn't require eleventy Abbadons every evening. If we can put together some reasonable proposals, get some signatures etc, then what's to stop us demanding a Dev response? |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
938
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Posted - 2013.05.11 13:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Would be awesome if main profits were to come from holding/defending/developing space (a la null) with income from taking space being relegated to second (or third) place .. it is what some of us tried convincing CCP to do when we bickered about system upgrade paths but they must have been scared about being accused of wanting to make LS/FW into null-lite so instead opted for a high-sec clone (characterized by PvE and Risk Aversion).
I do not see null sec as awesome. If anything IMO the war now is too static. We don't need more entrenchment.
From what I am reading, and looking at the map for kills per 24 hours, it seems the gallente are getting the larger scale fights by pushing home systems.
Admittedly amarr doesn't hold many home systems. But it seems minmatar rarely brings the fights in the home systems that exist.
I guess my first question would be why didn't/doesn't minmatar push for sahtogas? I really don't know the answer.
That answer (those reasons) may provide some clues as to where we need to look to get larger scale fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
667
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Posted - 2013.05.11 13:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
David Devant wrote:..I appreciate that you feel that CCP has moved on. This may in fact be the case. However, they have no incentive whilst both sides moan or gloat over irrelevant system gains whilst ignoring the salient facts.... Considered posts are easy, it is stuffing them full of win that is hard
It is not a matter of a feeling of CCP having moved on, but the rather harsh truth of the matter. They flat out stated that the last iteration (the repair they did on their botched job in December) would be the last for the time being, but added the now standard cop-out/caveat that they would be monitoring and tweaking when/if necessary. That is the reason why I do my damnedest to try to steer all threads in the direction of tweaks rather than overhauls .. it is in desperate need of an overhaul but as it cannot get that in the foreseeable future we must try to keep it simple and try for a tourniquet that will hopefully hold until dev resources can be shuffled back our way again.
It is my hope that they go about the null revitalization with a lot more manpower, insight and deliberation including some aspects from what is working in FW (objective based, size restrictions) where applicable and otherwise add things that can be used in FW when the time comes (ex. meaningful upgrade paths). Null and FW are and should be different, don't get me wrong, but they should also share some things as they both represent gameplay/areas outside direct empire control and as such the determining factors should be in the players hands .. |
greg01
Inglorious-Basterds
8
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Posted - 2013.05.11 13:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lets just make lp plex farming more difficult to those pesky farmers. This includes farmers from all factions. Farming should only have a MINIMAL effect on war zone control. Apart from that FW is just fine.
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