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Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
105
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Posted - 2013.05.12 04:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, the Domis are losing their bonus to rails. That means one thing to me we have an option on weapons. I'll assume lasers are no go for either PvP or PvE, but what about ACs and Artys on a Domi instead of Rails or Blasters? If guns are now a secondary weapon system overall for the domi, switching over to projectiles would at least free up cap for shield boosters, armor reppers, etc. or allow us to switch out cap mods and rigs for damage/defense items. I can has blogging skills! |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
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Posted - 2013.05.12 04:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
800mm Autos wont fit on a standard armor mission setup, needs 1 ANC, Arties have no hope of fitting. Rails would probably still be your best bet in a mission Domi. For PvP neuts all the way, but if you had to, I'd go for Dual 650 Autos. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
98
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Posted - 2013.05.12 06:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:800mm Autos wont fit on a standard armor mission setup, needs 1 ANC, Arties have no hope of fitting. Rails would probably still be your best bet in a mission Domi. For PvP neuts all the way, but if you had to, I'd go for Dual 650 Autos.
Yeah even with the new +1000 PWG it cannot fit 800s and can only fit (3) Artys. Rails it is still.
That is all. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
190
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Posted - 2013.05.12 07:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
and even if you could fit 800mm autos range on those things is **** for missioning since you wont be fitting TE/TC on domi.
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
159
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Posted - 2013.05.12 11:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ill be using 2x drone link augs and a remote armour rep anyway so can fit 3 1200s quite comfortably |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
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Posted - 2013.05.12 12:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Assuming I haven't borked the math, this Domi should fit comfortably after the patch.
[Dominix, L4 Cap Booster New]
Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Drone Link Augmentor II 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Garde II x5 Ogre II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
430/480/480 tank against Serp/Guri/Sansha, which is plenty, but against Angels you'd want to swap one DDA for another hardener on the harder missions OR alternatively you can drop the hybrid dps rig for an explosive armor rig for extra tank against angels which isn't a huge loss as most of the dps is from drones. Stable without the repper/cap booster.
930dps to 78km optimal with Gardes + CN Iridium (some of the best projection in the game, puts some Pirate BS to shame) 1100 max dps with Javelin + Ogres (though you'll probably never use this)
Also it has extremely good resistance to ewar as it can still use 80% of it's dps while damped/jammed making it one of the ideal Guristas/Serp runners. Don't forget the sick tracking with the inbuilt bonus + 3 Omnis, Gardes will track like medium long range turrets. It also has selectable damage type though at the expense of dps, usually Gardes will be the best.
All this from a cheap T2 fitted T1 hull, it should be undoubtedly the best T1 mission running BS in the game. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2013.05.12 13:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:All this from a cheap T2 fitted T1 hull, it should be undoubtedly the best T1 mission running BS in the game.
A Raven with NewCruise doing more dps than a CNR with OldCruise would dispute that. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
108
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Posted - 2013.05.12 13:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Was keen to try out sentry sniping.
[Dominix, Odyssey Carebearing] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Large Remote Armor Repair System I Light Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Ionic Field Projector I
5x Sentries, Wardens, Bouncers or Curators
______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
160
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Posted - 2013.05.12 13:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Too many dla, you need 2 max if you need more you need to train more skills. Also why so much tank on mjd fits? You shouldn't get touched if you're doing it right |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
108
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Posted - 2013.05.12 13:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Too many dla, you need 2 max if you need more you need to train more skills. Also why so much tank on mjd fits? You shouldn't get touched if you're doing it right
Mostly for anoms and stuff, 3x DLA puts me at 132km drone activation range. Tank will be lighter obviosuly, but i want the injector for emergencies. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2013.05.12 13:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Duno, I don't see the big pg issue in my eft. *shrugs*
[Dominix, ST] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Drone Link Augmentor II
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Garde II x5 Hobgoblin II x8 Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x2 Ogre II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 Garde II x1 |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 14:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:All this from a cheap T2 fitted T1 hull, it should be undoubtedly the best T1 mission running BS in the game. A Raven with NewCruise doing more dps than a CNR with OldCruise would dispute that.
Even with the dps buff my Domi will deal more damage @ 78km and under, however above that the Raven will due better because the Domi will be forced to switch to lower damage drones. CNR will be insane post patch though, but that's a faction ship and considerably more expensive.
Jill Antaris wrote:Duno, I don't see the big pg issue in my eft. *shrugs* fit here
Yeah with a shield fit you can get 800 Autos on but for missions the projection is less than ideal, even with tracking enhancers, and the shield fit requires some pimp to get the required tank, might as well spend that money on a Navy Domi (if the changes get ported over) which has the extra mid to shield tank properly, for a regular Domi armor tank + rails seems to be the way to go.
As for sniping with MJD, there's little reason to do it in L4s, you get to drop some tank, but you don't get any extra gank and it's a bother to MJD in and out, might as well go with my fit which has enough tank for any L4 and better dps, you can change the cap booster/TC for an AB on missions that have long gatecrawls. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why is it a bother to mjd in and out? Most missions only require 2 mjd uses per room: to get to the gate |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 22:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Why is it a bother to mjd in and out? Most missions only require 2 mjd uses per room: to get to the gate
Well, because the whole point of the MJD is to help with tanking so you can squeeze more gank onto the fit with less tank, however the MJD fit posted above does less dps with less projection than my fit, on top of that because of the long range you'll be operating at, you'll have to use longer range lower damage sentries which even further pushes your performance down. You are forced to jump a fixed 100km so it doesn't help with gate crawling, which is the only reason to fit a prop mod to a Domi.
If there's no gate crawl involved, my fit will drop Sentries and immediately start blasting everything, and go to the next pocket, where else in a MJD fit you have to align, jump, drop sentries, shoot everything, align again, jump back and then go to the next pocket all while not gaining any dps or projection advantage and my fit has adequate tank for all non-angels missions.
The only time I'd use an MJD on a Domi is when the rats spawn right on top of you because then Sentries become hard to use and using heavies with the new NPC AI is a nightmare. All in all there are a few missions when a MJD fit will serve you better, but most of the time my fit + a prop for the TC for some missions where you need to gatecrawl will be the best most of the time.
Even on things like Ravens MJD fits can end up being less efficient as even though Ravens can project to 100km easily, regular Raven fits already have pretty much max gank (4 BCUs + 3 Rigors) and the extra 'gank' you get will be in the form of TPs which is counteracted by the fact that you operate in deep falloff on your TPs. MJDs are nice for new players who have trouble tanking but if you can sit there and just kill everything with just as good dps/projection then yes, MJDing in and out is a bother.
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Well, because the whole point of the MJD is to help with tanking so you can squeeze more gank onto the fit with less tank, however the MJD fit posted above does less dps with less projection than my fit, on top of that because of the long range you'll be operating at, you'll have to use longer range lower damage sentries which even further pushes your performance down.
Not my fit, never advocated using acs on a domi.
Dato Koppla wrote:You are forced to jump a fixed 100km so it doesn't help with gate crawling, which is the only reason to fit a prop mod to a Domi. If there's no gate crawl involved, my fit will drop Sentries and immediately start blasting everything, and go to the next pocket, where else in a MJD fit you have to align, jump, drop sentries, shoot everything, align again, jump back and then go to the next pocket all while not gaining any dps or projection advantage and my fit has adequate tank for all non-angels missions.
Do u know these things called triangles?
Let me enlighten you on the wonderous thing called Trigonometry and the Pythagoras Theorum
THE ****? MATHS? NOWAI.
cmon, you might learn something :(
YOU->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GATE 46km
Example of odd distance that doesn't immediately cater to the 100km jump of the MJD.
We know that both the other sides must "roughly" be 100km making an isosceles triangle (a triangle with 2 sides which are equal in length, not to be confused with equilateral).
So we first use the Pythagoras theorum to find out what the length of the imaginary line in the middle is:
/ \ / | \ / | \ 100km / | \ 100km / | \ c / | \ c / | b \ / | \ / | \ YOU`````````````````````GATE a a 46km
So since the line is bisecting (cutting in half) the triangle we know the bottom length is 23km and the hypotenuse (side facing the right angle, aka the long one) is 100km.
Pythagora's Theorum is a^2+b^2=c^2
c is always the hypotenuse so that's 100 we know a (or b) is 23
so: 23^2+b^2 = 100^2 b^2 = 100^2 - 23^2 b = |/100^2 - 23^2 (I don't know the keyboard symbol for square root =S, power to the 1/2 will confuse people T_T) b = 97.3
So this means that the point we want to look for is 97.3km above the midpoint between us and the gate.
But how le **** do I figure out how to get 97.3km above the midpoint??
Here's where trig comes to save the day:
We now have a right-angled triangle to work with, aka a triangle where one angle is 90 degrees. So we have 3 trigonometrical functions: sin, cos and tan. I'm not going to give you the full lesson now but I'll tell you that the most convenient one is cos.
cosB = 23/100 B = cos^-1(23/100) (it's not really to the power of -1 but that's kind of how it looks) B = 76.7
So WTF is 76.7????
This ,my friend, is the angle of that corner, now how does it help us? Well this last part takes some guesswork (someone else may have a more precise way but im not smart enough to think of it) and experience but here's a few easy tips that I've come up with.
1. Zoom out and put your tactical overlay on (ctrl+D) (the circles help) 2. Face the camera so that YOU------------------------------------Gate it looks like this 3. 90 degrees means it's going directly up 4. By extension 0 degrees means its going directly flat in the direction of the gate (this will happen if you are exactly 100km from the gate and therefore don't need to do all this maths). 5. By further extension 45 degrees is halfway in between:
90 degrees | | | | | | | |__________________ 0 degrees
6. Further extrapolating that thought, 30 degrees is one third the way up from 0 and 60 degrees is one third down from 90.
So using these nice little facts, you can make an EDUCATED guess at where you should align to: left click in space where you think the correct angle is and then ROTATE your camera so that your ship is in line with your mouse.
/ \ | mouse
(ship) (gate)
(camera)
double click there, roll up your MJD and voila!
**** me sideways, A-level maths was useful for something? I shall now proceed to eat my hat.
EDIT: well screw you eve forums, wai u have to ruin my ASCII art like that, now I have to use paint. |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:Well, because the whole point of the MJD is to help with tanking so you can squeeze more gank onto the fit with less tank, however the MJD fit posted above does less dps with less projection than my fit, on top of that because of the long range you'll be operating at, you'll have to use longer range lower damage sentries which even further pushes your performance down. Not my fit, never advocated using acs on a domi. Dato Koppla wrote:You are forced to jump a fixed 100km so it doesn't help with gate crawling, which is the only reason to fit a prop mod to a Domi. If there's no gate crawl involved, my fit will drop Sentries and immediately start blasting everything, and go to the next pocket, where else in a MJD fit you have to align, jump, drop sentries, shoot everything, align again, jump back and then go to the next pocket all while not gaining any dps or projection advantage and my fit has adequate tank for all non-angels missions. maths.
First, I meant the MJD snipe fit by mama guru, not the shield AC fit, should have been more clear on that.
If I get your maths right, so basically, you can use the MJD to gatecrawl somewhat, so I've probably underestimated the efficiency you get from using an MJD on missions with long gatecrawls, but those missions are the minority, gate crawling missions usually require alot less tank (I think Worlds Collide is the exception) and you can just slap an MWD on my regular fit, blast up most of the stuff, and cruise to the next gate while killing everything else and probably match that efficiency, don't forget my fit still does more dps due to being closer to the rats so it evens out the fact that you can't have Sentries out while while MWDing to teh next gate (I haven't run the numbers or used an MJD the way you described so it's just my gut feeling, be my guest to maths it out)
And my point remains that on missions where you're sitting on the gate on warp in, my regular tank n gank setup will do far better as MJDing away from the gate, and then back to it is nothing more than a waste of time as you're just losing dps to gain tank and range that you don't need.
Honestly I have very little experience using an MJD in missions as I when I tried it when it first came out I found it to be a hindrance and so I never really experimented with it, I'd really like to know if it's better than just a simple MWD setup though. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
well basically for any mission with a gatecrawl you MJD to the most desirable direction (something that has all rats in range preferably) clear room thne mjd to out gate |
Hakaimono
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Triangles are lame. Nothing beats the mighty rhombus! |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:well basically for any mission with a gatecrawl you MJD to the most desirable direction (something that has all rats in range preferably) clear room thne mjd to out gate
Yeah pretty much, it's similar to using an MWD to just straight up burn to the gate although which is more efficient is arguable and needs some considerable testing, the fit I posted can be easily modified for either MJD, MWD or AB depending on the situation.
All in all what I'm getting at is that you shouldn't base a mission fit on MJD sniping, but rather use a fit like mine and slap a prop mod of choice when it's required, personally I like the simplicity of just burning to the gate but you make a solid argument for using an MJD for a similar purpose.
I haven't ran L4s in ages but the next time I do I'll be sure to test out the triangle-MJDing you suggested and compare it to an MWD fit.
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Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
421
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
I love it when as soon as a ship doesn't have any particular gun bonus, people want to slap projectiles on them...
No Laser bonus -> nobody considers fitting lasers No hybrid bonus -> nobody considers fitting hybrids - except seemingly on Gallente ships, probably because they've already trained them, and newer players probably wouldn't have trained projectiles if they started as Gallente
Couldn't possibly be a balance issue, could it? |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9291
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:I love it when as soon as a ship doesn't have any particular gun bonus, people want to slap projectiles on them...
No Laser bonus -> nobody considers fitting lasers No hybrid bonus -> nobody considers fitting hybrids - except seemingly on Gallente ships, probably because they've already trained them, and newer players probably wouldn't have trained projectiles if they started as Gallente
Couldn't possibly be a balance issue, could it?
Nothing to do with them being easy to fit and not using any cap, of course.
1 Kings 12:11
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
If I could fit missiles on a domi I would over arty.
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Uzbeg Khan
Spartan Advanced Mining Brothers of Tangra
7
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Posted - 2013.05.13 13:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:I love it when as soon as a ship doesn't have any particular gun bonus, people want to slap projectiles on them...
No Laser bonus -> nobody considers fitting lasers No hybrid bonus -> nobody considers fitting hybrids - except seemingly on Gallente ships, probably because they've already trained them, and newer players probably wouldn't have trained projectiles if they started as Gallente
Couldn't possibly be a balance issue, could it? Nothing to do with them being easy to fit and not using any cap, of course.
And that has nothing to do with balance of course
Things I hate: - Signatures - Irony - Lists |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9293
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Of course it has to do with balance. But fittings and cap are only 2 factors in balance, not the whole story.
As mentioned above, if Domis had launcher slots, they'd be an even better choice.
1 Kings 12:11
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Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
196
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Posted - 2013.05.13 14:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Uzbeg Khan wrote:Malcanis wrote:Nothing to do with them being easy to fit and not using any cap, of course. And that has nothing to do with balance of course It has something to do with balance, sure.
But I wouldn't call projectile usage on unbonused hulls an exceptionally useful metric. "Unbonused" here of course means "has bonuses for something other than guns" which again means "is fitted for something other than dealing lots of gun damage". So when you're fitting guns on an "unbonused" ship, the guns are in an auxiliary role, and your goal is to get as much extra juice out of them as possible while having them **** with your ship's primary role as little as possible. And projectiles (particularly ACs) fit that niche really well.
Now, if the result is that projectile-using ships end up with tanks/speed/whatever-that-depends-on-fitting that's too good, or that the capless advantage is too high, I'd call that a real problem. |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Of course it has to do with balance. But fittings and cap are only 2 factors in balance, not the whole story.
As mentioned above, if Domis had launcher slots, they'd be an even better choice.
But launchers aren't very gallente in nature. However if you wanted drones/missles you'd probably be looking into a Gila.
The best thing I can say about projectiles aside from cap is the ability to very your damage a little better than lasers or hybrids. You can do that with missiles as well but drones tend to be more problematic because of drone bay size concerns. I can has blogging skills! |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
421
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Uzbeg Khan wrote:Malcanis wrote:Nothing to do with them being easy to fit and not using any cap, of course. And that has nothing to do with balance of course It has something to do with balance, sure. But I wouldn't call projectile usage on unbonused hulls an exceptionally useful metric. "Unbonused" here of course means "has bonuses for something other than guns" which again means "is fitted for something other than dealing lots of gun damage". So when you're fitting guns on an "unbonused" ship, the guns are in an auxiliary role, and your goal is to get as much extra juice out of them as possible while having them **** with your ship's primary role as little as possible. And projectiles (particularly ACs) fit that niche really well. Now, if the result is that projectile-using ships end up with tanks/speed/whatever-that-depends-on-fitting that's too good, or that the capless advantage is too high, I'd call that a real problem.
Which is why the old Punisher and Prophecy were always fit as laser gunboats, and not projectile gunboats.... Or wait, never mind, their guns were auxilliary to their massive dronebayys
When you halve the cap usage of lasers, and people *still* don't want to use them over projectiles, there is a problem... |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2565
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Wait, what was this thread about again? |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1305
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:Wait, what was this thread about again?
It's about someone asking why cap-heavy weps aren't used on ships with limited cap... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2013.05.13 23:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:I love it when as soon as a ship doesn't have any particular gun bonus, people want to slap projectiles on them...
No Laser bonus -> nobody considers fitting lasers No hybrid bonus -> nobody considers fitting hybrids - except seemingly on Gallente ships, probably because they've already trained them, and newer players probably wouldn't have trained projectiles if they started as Gallente
Couldn't possibly be a balance issue, could it?
More like an ignorance issue. There are balance issues for unbonused ships with different weapons systems, but they relate mostly to fitting not being balanced than the actual weapons systems. You fit projectiles if you are cap starved and want to fight in falloff (for autos) or need high alpha (arties.) I used them on a passive shield tank myrm. Also medium rails suck.
On a Domi, large rails will almost always be better for pve and blasters or pulse lasers will usually be better for pvp because of fitting issues and damage projection along with the fact the domi has a reasonable amount of cap. If fitting for beam lasers weren't so demanding, then they would be situationally better for pve, but pulse lasers are still reasonable with the power of scorch.
If you want to do some passive shield tank fit or have some other reason to expect cap starvation while fighting in falloff, then sure the domi will be better served by projectiles, but most fits are still better served by hybrids because of higher dps and better projection.
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