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Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
494
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 14:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am not a citizen of Caille's Federal district and therefore I have no legal (or moral) right to instruct the court in how it should proceed. This is therefore a request for a consideration, and not a unilateral request. Similarly, the Federation's justice systems answer to a higher principle than an individual's personal beliefs, hence this is more for the court to consider holistically when it comes to a final sentence. Thirdly, I could not find any hard sources as to whether or not Caille or Central Garoun permits the death penalty, thus this is written on the assumption that it does allow capital punishment.
Outsiders of the Federation criticize this union as having an attitude that sees itself as "better than everyone else", but I feel this is exactly the sort of attitude the Caille court should take in dealing with Broteau. By refusing to execute Broteau, Caille demonstrates that it is morally superior to the shooter, and rejects turning him into a martyr for his racist beliefs. The Federation was founded on the principles of post-racialism, and it is on that notion I implore that Caille, as a leading member of the Federation, should demonstrate that crimes to the contrary will no longer be tolerated. It should do this by sticking its nose up at Broteau's pre-spaceflight beliefs and make him forgotten by dumping him in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life. Caille should not immortalize him by execution, leaving an obituary for other racially-driven extremists to rally around.
The decision of the Caille district court, however, remains their decision alone, given the blood (the colour of which is the same regardless of ethnicity) that was spilled under their rightful jurisdiction. When final sentencing comes, neither the Federation Government nor other Federation members have the right to supplant Caille's decision.
S Inhonores |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
29
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Posted - 2013.05.12 14:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am unsure but was it reported somewhere that he was a clone trooper? So if you kill him does he simply go back to his clone? If that is case then I vote that you kill him once for every victim then take his brain out for the last one. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
504
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 14:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:I am unsure but was it reported somewhere that he was a clone trooper? So if you kill him does he simply go back to his clone? If that is case then I vote that you kill him once for every victim then take his brain out for the last one.
For now, if I remember correctly, it was mostly Mr Soter's words stating so. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
453
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 14:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Request to consider against the death penalty for anyone. Hakatain recently informed me of a facility in the state where the decision to end a life sentence by suicide is left at the hands of the convicted. I think the Federation could learn something there. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1129
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:I am unsure but was it reported somewhere that he was a clone trooper? So if you kill him does he simply go back to his clone? If that is case then I vote that you kill him once for every victim then take his brain out for the last one. For now, if I remember correctly, it was mostly Mr Soter's words stating so. Thats correct Mr Soter was the one that theorized about him being a clone soldier. |
Kytre Aurgnet
Better Hide R Die EVE
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:I am unsure but was it reported somewhere that he was a clone trooper? So if you kill him does he simply go back to his clone? If that is case then I vote that you kill him once for every victim then take his brain out for the last one. For now, if I remember correctly, it was mostly Mr Soter's words stating so. Thats correct Mr Soter was the one that theorized about him being a clone soldier. The thing is, if he was a cloner, he's have to have a clone available should he die, just like us. Considering he's a nationalist and thinking he's doing the best for the Federation, if he was a cloner and had clones they'd almost certainly be under government control...and they can terminate the cloning contract if they were to execute him.
I don't recall anything about him being a cloner, though, and if he was it would be big news, considering the general stance on the cloned soldiers... |
Adreena Madeveda
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
I know : Broteau is judged within the Federation, by Federation laws. His fate rests on Federation's shoulders, etc.
But this crime, as you may have noticed, made kind of a blip on many Minmatar's ladars. I suppose the fact that it resulted in the deaths and injuries of 360 Minmatar including a Ray isn't totally alien to our attention. You may also have noticed that we're a little touchy on that subject, and easily pissed off.
For what he has done, death is the rightful punishment, the just one. I'm sure a lenient Justice would give some Federation citizens a "holier than thou" satisfaction -at the cost of pissing off Republic citizens a little more. Again. ...................\o\ /o/................... |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Despite feeling like there's more to this than just Broteau, I do agree with Madeveda. My concern, though, is that this will be rushed through and we'll lose any chance to find out who Broteau's accomplices (theoretical, granted) are.
Then we can turn our attention to other matters. Like justice for the tens of thousands who died at Colelie Bio and writing |
Alexis Valentyne
Federal Assistance Bureau
1133
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I am in agreement with Mr. Inhonores and speak for myself as well as all staff at the Federal Assistance Bureau by unanimous verdict that Broteau should be sentenced to life imprisonment and not the death penalty. I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
454
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
If they do choose to keep him alive, they should make sure he's kept in a run down prison colony on some asteroid in the ass end of nowhere where the vermin have more taste to them than the nutrition paste and spend the rest of his life working in an obsolete space suit mining veldspar by hand. |
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
495
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Constantly repeating that all victims were all Minmatar does not make it true by virtue of repetition. The original explosions killed members of the venue's staff. It is likely these personnel were of local ethnicity. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
505
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Death might well be what the culprit is expecting, and was expecting when surrendering without any resistance. He might also have walked to his ultimate act by considering himself as dead already. |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
1024
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Constantly repeating that all victims were all Minmatar does not make it true by virtue of repetition. The original explosions killed members of the venue's staff. It is likely these personnel were of local ethnicity.
Constantly stating "but some were gallente too!" doesnt make it a less touchy subject for us, nor diminish the impact this has had upon the Tribes. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Kytre Aurgnet
Better Hide R Die EVE
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Constantly repeating that all victims were all Minmatar does not make it true by virtue of repetition. The original explosions killed members of the venue's staff. It is likely these personnel were of local ethnicity. Constantly stating "but some were gallente too!" doesnt make it a less touchy subject for us, nor diminish the impact this has had upon the Tribes. However, it does bring up the fact that it is also a Gallente matter, and not just a Minmatar matter as many seem to believe. |
Magnus Ituin
Golden Ring Salvage and Industry.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kytre Aurgnet wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Constantly repeating that all victims were all Minmatar does not make it true by virtue of repetition. The original explosions killed members of the venue's staff. It is likely these personnel were of local ethnicity. Constantly stating "but some were gallente too!" doesnt make it a less touchy subject for us, nor diminish the impact this has had upon the Tribes. However, it does bring up the fact that it is also a Gallente matter, and not just a Minmatar matter as many seem to believe.
I'm sorry for being upsett about my supposed ally is keeping us in the dark and feeding us ****. I'll try to be more understandbable next time you wish to point a finger and call us imature when we are mourning the leader of our tribe.
I dare you, keep acting like that to your own allies and you won't keep them long.
Magnus Ituin Sebistor Tribe |
Kytre Aurgnet
Better Hide R Die EVE
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Magnus Ituin wrote:Kytre Aurgnet wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Constantly repeating that all victims were all Minmatar does not make it true by virtue of repetition. The original explosions killed members of the venue's staff. It is likely these personnel were of local ethnicity. Constantly stating "but some were gallente too!" doesnt make it a less touchy subject for us, nor diminish the impact this has had upon the Tribes. However, it does bring up the fact that it is also a Gallente matter, and not just a Minmatar matter as many seem to believe. I'm sorry for being upsett about my supposed ally is keeping us in the dark and feeding us ****. I'll try to be more understandbable next time you wish to point a finger and call us imature when we are mourning the leader of our tribe. I dare you, keep acting like that to your own allies and you won't keep them long. Magnus Ituin Sebiestor Tribe I seem to recall that one of the first things in this mess that occurred was the Republic demanding the shooter to be handed over to them. Not asking politely, not asking to help investigate...demanding he be given to them to have "justice" done. And when they were told no, that an investigation had to be done, they sent a fleet out to invade Gallente space and forcibly retrieve him.
Some way to treat an ally...
Also find it interesting that the Republic is out for blood and causing so much death in the name of someone who advocated peace... That truly strikes me as odd. It really does. If I was Matari, I would be looking for a peaceful solution in her name, not causing pain and suffering in her name |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
495
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
The majority of the victims were Federation citizens. An unclear segment of that number include ethnic Minmatar. If the Sanmatar asserts that these Minmatar are also members of a tribe and thus fall under their jurisdiction, this means that the laws of the Republic are applicable to one-third of the Federated Union. That is unworkable. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
927
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Personally, I've been quite fond of the death penalty.
Why should we give a mass murderer free room and board (if uncomfortable) for the rest of his life?
Though I am in no position to speak either. The ultimate decision should go to those close to the victims of this atrocity. Maybe a secret ballot on the matter? Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 22:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:I am not a citizen of Caille's Federal district and therefore I have no legal (or moral) right to instruct the court in how it should proceed. This is therefore a request for a consideration, and not a unilateral request. Similarly, the Federation's justice systems answer to a higher principle than an individual's personal beliefs, hence this is more for the court to consider holistically when it comes to a final sentence. Thirdly, I could not find any hard sources as to whether or not Caille or Central Garoun permits the death penalty, thus this is written on the assumption that it does allow capital punishment.
Outsiders of the Federation criticize this union as having an attitude that sees itself as "better than everyone else", but I feel this is exactly the sort of attitude the Caille court should take in dealing with Broteau. By refusing to execute Broteau, Caille demonstrates that it is morally superior to the shooter, and rejects turning him into a martyr for his racist beliefs. The Federation was founded on the principles of post-racialism, and it is on that notion I implore that Caille, as a leading member of the Federation, should demonstrate that crimes to the contrary will no longer be tolerated. It should do this by sticking its nose up at Broteau's pre-spaceflight beliefs and make him forgotten by dumping him in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life. Caille should not immortalize him by execution, leaving an obituary for other racially-driven extremists to rally around.
The decision of the Caille district court, however, remains their decision alone, given the blood (the colour of which is the same regardless of ethnicity) that was spilled under their rightful jurisdiction. When final sentencing comes, neither the Federation Government nor other Federation members have the right to supplant Caille's decision.
S Inhonores
But of course the death penalty is ok for any wrongdoing against the Federation but not for others.
*coughs*
Anvent Eturrer
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Anvent_Eturrer |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
943
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
You seem fond of this argument that you've suddenly come across, clutching this tidbit like it's your golden ticket to any debate.
Eturrer's execution was a vile and degrading low point to the Federation. Even for a man who's treason caused the deaths of millions and put the heart of the Gallente people at risk with a State Titan looming over them.
It wasn't right then, it wouldn't be right now.
Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient Electus Matari
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:The majority of the victims were Federation citizens. An unclear segment of that number include ethnic Minmatar. If the Sanmatar asserts that these Minmatar are also members of a tribe and thus fall under their jurisdiction, this means that the laws of the Republic are applicable to one-third of the Federated Union. That is unworkable.
We do know that there were "several visiting Minmatar dignitaries and entertainment celebrities, as well as a significant number of their Gallente colleagues" present. From this we can extrapolate that Karin Midular was not the only Republic Citizen amongst the casualty list.
Unfortunately, without a full list of the dead and wounded being publicly released, we're currently unable to say exactly how many of the victims of this atrocity were Federal Citizens, and how many were Republic Citizens. Therefore we cannot say with certainty that a majority of victims were a member of either nation at this point. |
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote: You seem fond of this argument that you've suddenly come across, clutching this tidbit like it's your golden ticket to any debate. Eturrer's execution was a vile and degrading low point to the Federation. Even for a man who's treason caused the deaths of millions and put the heart of the Gallente people at risk with a State Titan looming over them. It wasn't right then, it wouldn't be right now.
but wait a minute, I thought the Federation were so great, righteous and without fault ?
If you yourselves cannot pass the standards that you so dearly hold to your heart , then why do you expect others to pass the same exam which you failed!
But yet sorry for pointing out your flaws!, It is my fault. Sorry for being a tribal and sorry for being a barbarian, childish and stupid!
I apologize for I do not know better.
Please, take no offense for having the audacity to point the mirror right back at you.
Have a nice day!
|
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
1032
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:The majority of the victims were Federation citizens. An unclear segment of that number include ethnic Minmatar. If the Sanmatar asserts that these Minmatar are also members of a tribe and thus fall under their jurisdiction, this means that the laws of the Republic are applicable to one-third of the Federated Union. That is unworkable.
Because the majority were Federation citizens, the minority who were our citizens, not to mention the Ray of Matar, are unimportant? We're not supposed to expect some answers, a bit of say? "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps Interstellar Online Network
1462
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Death might well be what the culprit is expecting, and was expecting when surrendering without any resistance. He might also have walked to his ultimate act by considering himself as dead already.
Which does lend some credibility to the "cloned soldier" theory - because for a DUST trooper, death is perfectly viable method of escape from captivity.
And if he is indeed a DUST trooper then his actions coincide perfectly with the sort of mental instability commonly reported in first generation cloned troopers. The same one's that ended fleeing to the Empire for asylum and have been receiving treatment here ever since then.
And if he is an untreated first-generation DUST trooper who flew off the handle then it quite likely that his clone(s) are currently under wraps inside the Empire.
And if that is true then if the Federation executes him then he's going to find himself waking up again in our hands. And don't think for one moment that would constitute any kind of "escape" - quite the contrary: Midular was a peacemaker, and we respect that. Broteau is a first class terrorist, and we Amarrians are quite touchy when it comes to terrorists. A sentence of lifetime enslavement takes on a whole new meaning when one is immortal. He may find himself worked to death in a uranium mine ten thousand times over the next ten thousand years should all of the above turn out to be true.
Q: Just how bad were missiles and drones nerfed?-á A: They're adding them to Amarr ships now. |
Kytre Aurgnet
Better Hide R Die EVE
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Death might well be what the culprit is expecting, and was expecting when surrendering without any resistance. He might also have walked to his ultimate act by considering himself as dead already. Which does lend some credibility to the "cloned soldier" theory - because for a DUST trooper, death is perfectly viable method of escape from captivity. And if he is indeed a DUST trooper then his actions coincide perfectly with the sort of mental instability commonly reported in first generation cloned troopers. The same one's that ended fleeing to the Empire for asylum and have been receiving treatment here ever since then. And if he is an untreated first-generation DUST trooper who flew off the handle then it quite likely that his clone(s) are currently under wraps inside the Empire. And if that is true then if the Federation executes him then he's going to find himself waking up again in our hands. And don't think for one moment that would constitute any kind of "escape" - quite the contrary: Midular was a peacemaker, and we respect that. Broteau is a first class terrorist, and we Amarrians are quite touchy when it comes to terrorists. A sentence of lifetime enslavement takes on a whole new meaning when one is immortal. He may find himself worked to death in a uranium mine ten thousand times over the next ten thousand years should all of the above turn out to be true. If he happens to be a cloner, and is executed and has clones, all it means is he will awaken like us, in a cloning facility that holds his clones. It does not mean that he will awaken in Amarr hands, or any other's that he does not already have clones entrusted with. Just like us. You'll have to find him and recapture him should he be a cloner, just as if he were a capsuleer. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1463
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
I've noticed that capsuleers tend to have rather lofty opinions of themselves and often suffer delusions of invincibility in the face of governments. I invite such delusional pilots to go out and take a pot-shot at the first CONCORD vessel they see and then come back and tell us again just how invincible they are.
Capsuleer clones are kept in medical facilities on stations. Stations that have owners, and unless they are in nullsec then those station owners are not capsuleers. They're local governments. If those government ever decide that a capsuleer really needs to be taken down then they can simply switch off that clone. Then the pilot has to flee to somewhere that will offer them a new clone contract before the get killed again.
All of this assumes mobility, something capsuleers take for granted. Hop into your pod, plug the pod into a ship and off you go, putting lightyears of distance between yourself and all those you've wronged who thirst for your blood. Yes, it is easy to see how this can lead to such foolish delusions of being untouchable.
But a DUST trooper? They can't just hop into their own little private spaceships and go flying off to greener pastures. Gravity is the chain that shackles them to a location if nothing else. If no one is willing or able to fly them off a planet then they're pretty much stuck there. And their cloning facilities are just as planet bound as they are. They're not going anywhere without outside help.
And all this assumes that the arresting government lacks the competence to due the most obvious, standard procedure when apprehending an "immortal" criminal: First, seize control of their clones. Then terminate their current body. When the clone awakens it awakens already in custody, prison, or worse. It's simply a matter of tracking down where their clones are and who holds the medical contracts. If that's anywhere this side of nullsec then they can be shut down, boxed in and eventually captured - it's only a matter of time & determination.
And even if they make it out to nullsec then they're just trading one master for another - having to suck up to whatever local warlord owns & controls the outposts and stations with cloning facilities. In the end any capsuleer who doesn't own their own personal Rorqual hidden out in some never searched corner of nowhere is at the mercy of whoever own and/or operates whatever cloning facility that they're depending on... and DUST troopers don't even have that option.
In summary: "Immortal" doesn't mean invincible. .... when you could be playing Minecraft. |
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
441
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:But a DUST trooper? They can't just hop into their own little private spaceships and go flying off to greener pastures. Dusters can buy and pilot ships the same as any baseliner. They can also clone jump.
Katran Luftschreck wrote: And their cloning facilities are just as planet bound as they are. This is a mind-boggling statement.
They use dustside facilities during battle because they're infantry and need to rapidly redeploy after falling. No magical force binds them to it. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
638
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 09:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm just going to say, there's an awful lot of speculation going around both on the way that Clone Soldiers work and whether Gerne Broteau is a clone soldier. I won't touch on the first topic since that will take too long, but I will remind everyone of two things.
First, it's speculation and rumours. Nothing has been said by any official parties confirming that he is a clone soldier. Second, if he was, why didn't he just extract himself once he was surrounded by police with a bullet to the head? He would wake up in a CRU somewhere else in the cluster and quietly slip away before the local authorities knew so much as his name. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
320
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Request to consider against the death penalty for anyone. Hakatain recently informed about a facility in the State where the decision to end a life sentence by suicide is left at the hands of the convicted. I think the Federation could learn something there.
How touching. Although I personally consider it distasteful to allow someone guilty of such a crime the honorable way out. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1462
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Publicly send him to a max prison in a dismissive 'high and mighty' way.
Secretly transfer him to the Sebiestors after the fact.
Oh darn did I say that over open comms? Oh bad Anslo, bad.
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