Now back to my regularly scheduled program...


CNR change proposal... go back to 7 launchers and 5% ROF.

Lose the velocity bonus and add the explosion radius in place of it.

Keep the other changes intended..


Input folks....

Tempest fleet issue was the worst navy BS, but nothing changes for some reason.. If TE's get a nerf it will be ridiculously bad, I know it's supposed to be "versatile" but that counts for nothing in eve unless you can refit without a station/carrier. What role does the fleet pest fill that wouldn't be done much better by some other bs?

The only use I can think of would be in very small gangs where the utility of double neuts and an extra mid are helpful, but even then it doesn't make up for the pitiful dps. Honestly I don't think 7 guns would be THAT op given the low dps of AC's and the fact that TE's are getting a falloff nerf. 7 guns might be drastic, but wasting 2 bonuses on 6 weak guns really cripples it. Cruise missiles will nearly match AC dps (also furies hit 100+)! That is EFT dps, not even considering pest has to fight in deep falloff.

At least the navy phoon will be good.

Yeah but i feel this is done case nothing will get changed it is rolling as is and talk about pest was or rather is few years old ...

CCP didn't do nothing then to buff pest and it become 3x time more expensive garbage over maelstrom and now it will become moped up by Typhoon too.

You gotta give em credit for consistency of not recognizing fail then and keep going the same way now.

that's why I bought a fleet phoon as soon as I saw the BS rebalance..

It seems like a good ship in theory but maybe they don't eft warrior or consider their practical use in gangs/fleets?
9 effective turrets with 2 utility highs and 5 meds to play with sounds like a great ship, but it doesn't have nearly enough speed/agility to compensate for the battlecruiser dps at range (remember te's getting nerfed :s).

Regarding the CNR:

How about changing the range bonus to a 5% per level damage bonus? With 7 launchers this would result in 8.75 effective turrets. Not as powerful as the rof bonus but it would add some differentiation with the other ships in terms of alpha. Also: none of that kinetic only bonus malarky either. Also also: IMO the fleet Typhoon is going to need to be altered to maintain some semblance of balance (note I didn't say nerfed).

Can people please stop talking about CNR's velocity bonus like it's only there to add range? If that bonus was extra flight time, it would be crap, but it's higher velocity, therefore it's awesome. Much, much more awesome than most people here seem to realize.

Would be kind of overpowered but you are also underestimating the usefulness of velocity in cruises. I don't think any other ship gets an explosion radius bonus, it's much more useful than velocity.. This alone is a huge buff considering the cruise changes AND the fact that it gets another mid..

Plz tell me when you'd rather have a fleet pest ;). You should be thankful.

Thankful that the one true caldari powerhouse damage battleship just got nerfed in dps because of a cruise buff?
Thankful that the Minmatar counter part is better using the caldari weapon system and puts down more dps in general, and then gets a big fat drone bay to use sentry or heavy? Hey thats another 300 dps on top of its already superior dps.

Yes im sure caldari pilots are thankful for having not only the T1 raven but, the beastly CNR that had some of the highest dps of navy ships just took a back seat to minmatar ships on both fronts.

Hold the press, lets cheer for that one ! Seriously?

There have been many posts of how the Phoon changes are loved and people are buying them up, including the people speaking out aginst the bad CNR change. They all agree that the Phoon is better.

The phoons have all the mid slots they need to solo pvp and put down all that higher paper dps and when shield fit, they will blow the CNR away with support, while the CNR will not be better than it either when the phoon is armor or shield tank.

but hey, you get a velocity bonus to make yourself useful over 150km all till that prober takes a few seconds to probe you down, warp the enemy on top of you and laugh because you were dumb enough to try and snipe in a missile ship.

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?

I know exactly what you're saying, but unfortunately it just doesn't pan out in practice. The ~17% DPS nerf is just too great for the relatively minor damage application bonus to really come into play. Against a small and fast BS like the new Phoon, the old CNR applies significantly more damage. Even against truly small and exceedingly rare targets like an AB Sacrilege, the new CNR only has a 12% DPS advantage.

So the net result of what we're seeing regarding torp CNR fits is a utility high and a 17% DPS nerf traded for an extra mid and enough damage application that the new CNR might maintain the same DPS as the old one. Again, the new CNR is just outright nerfed compared to the old one.

-Liang

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% Bonus to Cruise and Torpedo damage per level

....and you really believe this wouldn't be overpowered??? 10% bonus to exp radius???? 10% to damage!!!!

...and you expect people to take you serious after posting this????????

Liang, I'm reading you but I'm not really understanding. For years the main "issue" with missiles was the damage application. Are you saying now that this actually wasn't true?

This new CNR does deliver the damage quite swiftly and has a very nice damage application bonus. I see good use for it in PvP, where fitting damage application modules (painters, rigors) is considered subpar to survivability modules (i.e. tank, resists). One web and you'll be applying full torp damage to battlecruisers and up.

Back to matari:

Fphoon apparently obsolotes Fpest on Fpests intended role. At least Fpest has its armor alpha niche. But for general use Fphoon seems to be outclassing it. There needs to be some distinction:

For Pest: Get the dmg bonus part to 7.5% per level. I hate to see it outalphaed by maelstorms and abaddons. It is a 10% damage increase (and only 3% more than a regular mael) in total, which is something FPest needs to differentiate from regular pest.

For Phoon: Keep it in its orginal shape 8 4 8. 5/5 turrets/launchers keep new bonuses. Phoon was always about utility. Lets keep its nature on the fleet version.

I was actually editing the post for what i just posted now and I saw your post. Yet with current CM launcher ROF it would be way to powerful but increase the duration of the launchers to 40 seconds and with level 5 skill, it would be 20 seconds.
Right in line with arts.

Edit- Of course torp launchers would have to be changed as well unless the damage bonus would be just to cruise launchers.

I think you really need to sleep. Lowering duration(nerfing ROF) on cruises and torps will change all the ships which use them which will create a huge mess with balance.

That velocity bonus is the reason why they nerfed the damage to the CNR and pigeon holed it into a cruise boat because of the CM buff.

That velocity bonus was on the old CNR as well, it had nothing to do with the changes. The reason it's awesome is because of CM buff, as the missiles now cross the velocity threshold necessary to hit very fast targets (previously, fast interceptors would outrun missiles). Essentially, that bonus, combined with explosion radius bonus and Precision missiles makes a CNR team nigh untacklable.

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?

1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

I thought they were supposed to be balanced and suddenly we have these "modes" instead?

1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

"easymode"
"hardmode"
"tankmode"

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

Umm im pretty sure a frig/ceptor can tackle a raven after the changes.

Missiles are affected by target sig radius and speed. Cruise with precision will not stop them.

I like how suddenly out of blue sky "golem should outperform cnr at pve." Not that there is much difference between juggling 2 and 3 tps.

Also let me guess - juggling target painters is intended mechanics - its basically is eves "minigame" right?