Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I dont get it. when u are orbiting someone and they are at 0m/s its the same as if u are still and they are orbiting even though in a perfect orbit your guns should not have to move at all. seems a bit unfair that if u web someone they get the same tracking advantage as you. infact if they park their ship still on purpose you might as well not even have webs..
is there some balance thing ive overlooked? is it a very hard thing to "fix" in terms of coding? or what? im curious. the more i think of it the more it bothers me lately. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
262
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
I gladly point out this rather good guide on hoe tracking works. ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1720
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Now imagine yourself sitting still from your point of view and the other is orbiting you at your orbit velocity.
Physics. Ask Einstein. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
966
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
all things are not equal to real physics.
You are playing a submarine game masquerading as a space sim, tracking should indeed be reduced for the guy giving "broadside" vollys VS. the guy in the middle of the orbit whos guns are spinning around trying to track him. If you want to not have tracking issues even tho your guns dont actually have to move,m you want launchers instead in eve, it just works that way. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
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Major 'Revolver' Ocelot
GRU Special Forces
82
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hoe tracking, nice. Gotta track them all! I love to reload during a battle!-áThere's nothing like the feeling of slamming a long silver missile into a well greased chamber... |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Now imagine yourself sitting still from your point of view and the other is orbiting you at your orbit velocity.
Physics. Ask Einstein.
ah the relativity card. ok ill play.
now imagine u are looking at what u are orbiting with your eyes (imagine your body is your ship) see how even tho you circle you arent having to move your head or eyes at all?
now imagine u swap places, u are now standing still, the other person is orbiting you. now try to continue looking at him... notice how u have to spin your head/eyes to stay looking at him?
so your relativity thing means nothing here.
and thank u for the link Ezwal but i already knew that and it doesnt change the fact this seems like itd be better to be accurate |
Draqone an'Alreigh
EVE University Ivy League
30
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vega Umbranox wrote:I dont get it. when u are orbiting someone and they are at 0m/s its the same as if u are still and they are orbiting even though in a perfect orbit your guns should not have to move at all. seems a bit unfair that if u web someone they get the same tracking advantage as you. infact if they park their ship still on purpose you might as well not even have webs..
is there some balance thing ive overlooked? is it a very hard thing to "fix" in terms of coding? or what? im curious. the more i think of it the more it bothers me lately.
1) Add angular velocity to your overview. 2) Orbit a stationary ship. 3) Be amazed. Inducing the proliferation of common sense throughout EVE Official forums since April 27th, 2013. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
465
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vega Umbranox wrote: and thank u for the link Ezwal but i already knew that and it doesnt change the fact this seems like itd be better to be accurate
I'm with you here, it seems like tracking gains are undervalued by the game mechanics. I read the wiki and I know how quickly damage falls off when tracking is an issue according to the formula, but in the game it doesn't feel like it has as much of an impact as it should.
Maybe I need to spend more time shooting frigs with a rail fit talos =-P
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
465
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
For instance; we were shooting structure the other day and every now and then a red frig would warp onto a perch. Most of the guys were in Naga's, a few of us were in rail fit Talos. The frig KM's were dominated by the naga's. As were the structure KM's. It seems like Talos should have handily won the frig mails.
This was a small sample and may be more of an issue of optimal range, but it seems to me that the Talos should have been higher on the damage vs frigs even considering range. I have noticed this for some time in other situations as well, it just feels like tracking is underweighted. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
931
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vega Umbranox wrote:I dont get it. when u are orbiting someone and they are at 0m/s its the same as if u are still and they are orbiting even though in a perfect orbit your guns should not have to move at all. seems a bit unfair that if u web someone they get the same tracking advantage as you. infact if they park their ship still on purpose you might as well not even have webs..
is there some balance thing ive overlooked? is it a very hard thing to "fix" in terms of coding? or what? im curious. the more i think of it the more it bothers me lately.
The game engine doesn't at all account for where the guns are aimed or what direction your ship is pointing. According to the game both ships are just points, nothing more. And due to the relative movement between those two points you get the angular velocity which, logically, which be the same towards each other. For more info on the whole tracking thing check the link in my sig and watch the turret tutorial. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
465
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Amat victoria curam sounds a lot like Amarr victor to me.
Great videos by the way, anyone interested in cloak/mwd or tracking should watch them. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14261
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Turrets are gyrostabilised and try to retain their position and orientation relative to their own inertial frame, not that of the ship. They therefore have to be slewed out of position to keep their orientation relative to the ship hull, and thus to the target. This slewing action is subject to the same tracking accuracy no matter if it's the target or the turret ship that is creating the relative motion.
There you go. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
932
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Amat victoria curam sounds a lot like Amarr victor to me.
Great videos by the way, anyone interested in cloak/mwd or tracking should watch them.
It means "Victory favours the prepared".
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
4
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Turrets are gyrostabilised and try to retain their position and orientation relative to their own inertial frame, not that of the ship. They therefore have to be slewed out of position to keep their orientation relative to the ship hull, and thus to the target. This slewing action is subject to the same tracking accuracy no matter if it's the target or the turret ship that is creating the relative motion.
There you go.
eff dat my blasters use magnetic field stabilizers not gyros!!! good explanation tho for sure.
still for gameplay purpose i dont like it one bit |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
932
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vega Umbranox wrote:Tippia wrote:Turrets are gyrostabilised and try to retain their position and orientation relative to their own inertial frame, not that of the ship. They therefore have to be slewed out of position to keep their orientation relative to the ship hull, and thus to the target. This slewing action is subject to the same tracking accuracy no matter if it's the target or the turret ship that is creating the relative motion.
There you go. eff dat my blasters use magnetic field stabilizers not gyros!!! good explanation tho for sure. still for gameplay purpose i dont like it one bit
It's a necessity, the amount of coding and cpou cycles required to allow for actual turret tracking would be completely insane and would make bigger confrontations entirely impossible. So if you want to have a single shard gameworld with as little as possible restrictions on player numbers in one location all affecting each other, then you will HAVE to simplify a lot of game mechanics. Can't have it both ways. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
4
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
yeah fair enough. ive got some slight idea but itd involve changing tracking formulas BUT i am no where near as good at math to believe itd be a simple matter and im sure itd be a LOT more complicated than i imagine it at 1st thought |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
116
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:hoe tracking
I need this so bad, tired of mine dodging me errytime I come around! Oderint Dum Metuant |
Florestan Bronstein
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
560
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Amat victoria curam sounds a lot like Amarr victor to me.
Great videos by the way, anyone interested in cloak/mwd or tracking should watch them. It means "Victory favours the prepared". nope
it says "victory loves care" (in this context care as in accuracy/diligence) |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
933
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Amat victoria curam sounds a lot like Amarr victor to me.
Great videos by the way, anyone interested in cloak/mwd or tracking should watch them. It means "Victory favours the prepared". nope it says "victory loves care" ("care" as in "accuracy"/"diligence") "victory favors the prepared" would be "victoria paratum/paratos amat" (although I think amare is too strong for "to favor")
literal translation is literal and ofcourse very useful.
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Florestan Bronstein
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
560
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote: literal translation is literal and ofcourse very useful.
it's not a question of literal vs non-literal translation but an issue of accurate vs inaccurate translation.
victoria curam amat.
does simply not mean the same as
victoria paratum favet.
in the second sentence victory favors the prepared (guy), in the first sentence victory likes/loves diligence as such/as a quality (you usually wouldn't even translate cura as preparation - you might do your preparations with cura). |
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Friggz
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
130
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Imagine you are in a shooting gallery and fire at a stationary target. That's zero angular velocity.
Imagine you are in a shooting gallery and fire at a target that is moving straight forward and backward. You don't need to turn your gun to keep it trained on the target, so it's still zero angular velocity.
Now imagine the target is moving back and forth on a rail. To keep your gun pointed at it as it moves, you have move your gun or 'track it'. That's angular velocity and tracking.
Now, imagine the target is stationary but you are on a platform moving back and forth. Could you keep your gun pointed at the target without moving it? No, you could not, just with last example you need to move your gun as the platform moves to keep it pointed at the target. It's still angular velocity. The Evolution of the Stealth Bomber, and the story of the first Black Ops Capital Kill in EvE.
https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/969 |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
264
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Major 'Revolver' Ocelot wrote:Hoe tracking, nice. Gotta track them all! Doh, spelling...
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
4
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Friggz wrote:Imagine you are in a shooting gallery and fire at a stationary target. That's zero angular velocity.
Imagine you are in a shooting gallery and fire at a target that is moving straight forward and backward. You don't need to turn your gun to keep it trained on the target, so it's still zero angular velocity.
Now imagine the target is moving back and forth on a rail. To keep your gun pointed at it as it moves, you have move your gun or 'track it'. That's angular velocity and tracking.
Now, imagine the target is stationary but you are on a platform moving back and forth. Could you keep your gun pointed at the target without moving it? No, you could not, just with last example you need to move your gun as the platform moves to keep it pointed at the target. It's still angular velocity.
Sigh i understand why it is why it is now and i accept that. but plzzz stop making me repeat myself in 100 different ways. what i am saying is 100% correct we have established this, in the real world its how it "should be".
the scenario is 1 stationary 1 orbit.. the nature of this orbit is u keep 1 side of your ship facing the target at all times.. when u go round a round about your door handle faces the centre the whole time. yet it cant move or aim by itself.. must be magic... cbfed re explaining again lol
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
966
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Major 'Revolver' Ocelot wrote:Hoe tracking, nice. Gotta track them all!
i always know where my hoes at
Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
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BoBoZoBo
Divine Beasts Nite's Reign
225
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Posted - 2013.05.14 15:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Relativity does not come into play here in the manner you are ascribing.
If the target ship is still or moving slowly, his guns need to track the faster moving aggressor.
If the aggressor is orbiting the the target, then the ship is transversing and rotating to keep the guns in line at all times, therefore the guns themselves need to do less tracking as the ship doing most of the maneuvering to keep the guns in line. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
968
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Posted - 2013.05.14 15:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:correct stuff
He is saying "if i am the moon, in your analogy, then why do I MISS due to tracking, if it shouldn't be an issue for me"
In eve unless both players are stationary both guns have to track regardless of the orbit and the directions the guns are facing. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
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BoBoZoBo
Divine Beasts Nite's Reign
225
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Posted - 2013.05.14 15:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:correct stuff He is saying "if i am the moon, in your analogy, then why do I MISS due to tracking, if its not an issue for me"
Because your gunner is drunk or has less skill Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Vinzent Arran
Relentless Terrorism
0
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Posted - 2013.05.14 16:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think the real question we should be asking is "Are the guns locked to the inertial frame of the ship, or do they carry their own inertial frame?"
For example if someone was on the moon pointing at earth of course the guns will never actually have to track, since they're locked to the inertial frame of the moon, but what if the guns had a gyrostabilizer to lock them to their own inertial frame. They would now have to track the earth eventhough the moon is still always facing the earth. |
Zaxix
Long Jump.
87
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Posted - 2013.05.14 16:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vinzent Arran wrote:I think the real question we should be asking is "Are the guns locked to the inertial frame of the ship, or do they carry their own inertial frame?"
For example if someone was on the moon pointing at earth of course the guns will never actually have to track, since they're locked to the inertial frame of the moon, but what if the guns had a gyrostabilizer to lock them to their own inertial frame. They would now have to track the earth eventhough the moon is still always facing the earth. stop being sensible! ***Frog Forever***
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Julius Rigel
89
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Posted - 2013.05.14 16:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:the ship is transversing and rotating to keep the guns in line at all times A conventional ship in a conventional fluid, such as a boat in water, a plane in air, a satellite in a vacuum, sure. But in jello-space, a spaceship is just a point with a radius, it has no directionality.
Sure, the game tries its best to point the front of your UFO submarine's model in the direction of your movement vector, but the model has no other relation to the physics calculations, and it doesn't even do a particularly good job of pointing in the right direction. Try moving "backward" relative to your ship model some time, or establishing a tight, fast orbit around a small object, and if you have any frame of reference, something in the background, you'll see the ship model struggling to keep up with the vector. Do YOU like to undock? |
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